By Jo Nova
All flights are currently suspended at Luton Airport, London after a major fire broke out last night at 9pm. No one at the BBC, apparently, can explain why it spread so fast (the mystery!). But everyone is grateful this was not an underground carpark below, say, a 20 story apartment building with babies sleeping upstairs, especially since part of the top floor of the carpark has collapsed.
The fire has, unfortunately demolished some dreams of carbon reduction.
UPDATE: Apparently the word is that it was a diesel car that started the fire. The question is then, if there were no EV’s on that floor, would it have spread just as fast, would the floor have collapsed, and would cars have exploded like popcorn in the microwave? Awaiting the BBC gurus…
UPDATE #2: Allegedly there were no sprinklers (which wouldn’t put out an EV battery fire anyway). Let’s try to imagine what kind of sprinkler system would contain those EV Fires — like drop-down glass-fibre spray that solidifies on contact or like jet sprayed asbestos?
UPDATE #3: As many as 1,500 cars were in the car park, it’s not clear how many survived. Fireman say all four floors pancaked in at least one part. *See the video of the supposed start of the fire. And footage where the car is visible. Seems like a very big explosion. Some are saying it was a hybrid diesel.
Let your imagination run …
Looks like the whole car park has just fallen down through the flames!#LutonAirport #luton #Airport #fire #flights #suspended pic.twitter.com/fods2ygv9T
— Yasin Sandhu (@CHSandhu886) October 10, 2023
Hear the sound of cars exploding:
Huge fire at London Luton Airport car park pic.twitter.com/zP0joTRZDt
— Harrison Krank (@HarrisonKrank) October 10, 2023
So you’re not allowed to send a lithium battery through the post unless it’s in a fire-proof, blast-proof package but you can park your #Tesla in a multi-story car park next to very expensive, well-made cars.
Explain that one to me again.#lutonairport pic.twitter.com/E06Ys6KoM8
— 🌊 Paul Downes 🇺🇦🌐 (@CallmeDownsie) October 11, 2023
Luton Airport flights suspended after large car park fire
By Greg McKenzie and Emily McGarvey, BBC News
All flights at London Luton Airport have been suspended and people have been asked not to travel there because of a large fire in a terminal car park.
The Terminal Car Park 2 suffered a “significant structural collapse”, Bedfordshire Fire Service says. Up to 1,200 vehicles may have been in the car park and subsequently damaged, the fire service said. Four firefighters and a member of airport staff were taken to hospital for smoke inhalation.
Russell Taylor, 41, an account director from Kinross, saw the flames after flying in to London Luton from Edinburgh. He told the PA news agency: “There were a couple of fire engines with a car ablaze on the upper floor of the car park at just after 9pm. “A few minutes later most of the upper floor was alight, car alarms were going off with loud explosions from cars going up in flames.”
h/t GaryS
When I went to buy my new car recently the sales man was amazed that I did not want an EV. “Everybody is buying them now” he told me!
390
Tell him no; they are vehicular assault and battery
410
I thought about changing my car a few months ago but all the dealers were taking the p155. Prices were silly, delivery months away for bread-and-butter models and some dealers wouldn’t even guarantee the spec, which might in turn affect the price – after I placed the order!
Needless to say, I still have my trusty, 9yr-old Nissan and I won’t be revisiting the dealers till they start talking sense again.
410
You have just explained why car manufacturers so desperately need EVs to take over.
My car is 13 yrs old and still perfectly good. I then give the proviso that it is low milage BUT, and it’s a big “but”, it has 50,000 on the clock or 30,000 miles in the old money. An old Holden would be desperately needing a valve regrind [at least] at that milage and have so many other issues [including rust at 3 yrs] that it would be trade in time.
Like you, I have no intention of buying a new ICE. The only way the auto manufacturers can get me to buy again is by FORCING me to do so, hence the EV push.
40
Except that everyone isn’t buying them hence the need for VW to suspend production and dealers here and in the US refusing deliveries as they can’t shift current stock.
351
If “everyone” is buying them, I wonder why there are EVs piling up in unsold inventories while they remain a small fraction of cars built? Seems like a conundrum.
260
That’s what can happen with flammable liquids.
332
As I said below, and has later been said on WUWT, the vehicle is sold as and was probably a diesel HYBRID. Clearly the blowtorch emerging from under the car is not just a diesel fire.
331
Range Rover diesel hybrid which have a well established history of mysteriously catching fire , John Cardogan is hard to listen to and there are ads but well worth the watch .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk0MWDsueMY
10
What is different now is the sudden increase in defiantly self blinded blaming of the liquids. The now larger and faster spreading carpark and car carrier fires being nearly impossible to put out.
The car carrier situation makes it even harder to maintain that sort of delusion. The determined can still stop themselves from thinking with the aid of loud mantra chanting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUTiJsoFNgE
150
You better don’t drink alcohol before typing 😀
50
Diesel is so flammable you can extinguish a cigarette or a burning match 😀
170
Yes, so dangerous, so dangerous, sitting there inside its sealed tank. Always spontaneously combusting and blowing things up. Car parks have been always catching on fire.
Are we heading for a time when everyone wants to use the outdoor car park rather than the indoor?
170
Simon will be getting very concerned about his golf buggy with doors.
This was bound to happen and it will surely result in BEVs being banned from enclosed car parks. That has already occurred in one city in Germany. Norwegian ferries will not transport EVs.
Electrical regulations in Australia require residential batteries to be fire separated from living quarters. It is only a matter of time before EVs are excluded from connected garages. Insurance companies will drive this. Basically a house with an EV in a connected garage will be uninsurable.
I have stated for a numbers of years that insurance costs will kill EVs.
100
That is hugely ironic and hipocritical ,…..considering Norway has pioneered the use of giant Lithium batteries to power their ferries !😂
https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/02/worlds-largest-electric-ferry-yet-goes-into-service-in-norway/
52
LUTON AIRPORT FIRE
-Combustion type looks like a Lithium-ion battery fire.
-Range Rover Hybrid Evoque uses a 48 V Lithium-ion battery
-This means it can be a Diesel car but the Lithium-ion battery in the hybrid model still started the fire
-Most likely to be a petrol-hybrid
https://x.com/robinmonotti/status/1712120727636177031
41
You have no idea what you are talking about … diesel is very difficult to set fire to, and a closed container of diesel (like a fuel tank) never just spontaneously ignites.
Even if it somehow leaks and drips into an open puddle, the flash point is always well over 50C ambient … that’s to say the temperature that the puddle of diesel would need to reach in order to produce enough fumes that it can catch fire at all … presuming it actually had a source of ignition.
The only way it could possibly catch fire is with the engine fully running, and hot (e.g. surface temp 60C) and you had a fuel leak, and even then it needs an additional spark or something to set it off.
40
Mr. Simon: If it was just flammable liquids, they would still have a parking garage, with a small area scorched. You’ve bitten into this apple, let us know when you taste the half-worm.
30
‘FOMO’ works on some clowns, ignore them.
00
“Terminal Car Park?
Quite!
410
It’s only a matter of time before terrorists (who have been invited to Western countries by foolish governments and are already living among us and loved by the Left) work out they can use these vehicles for vehicular homicides. Just appropriately miswire them to ensure a battery ignition and park a bunch in an underground car park of an apartment block or office building. The inferno would be unstoppable soon leading to failure of support structures of the building.
462
Dont give ’em ideas
120
I’ll be last in the queue to buy an electric car!
250
All you idiots that bought EVs, goodluck insuring them, and you’ll be lucky to get scrap metal prices for the bomb, minus battery, which you’ll have to pay for disposal…..bwahaha.
391
Your freudenfreude muscle been strained? 😄
Thinking, myself, we need to campaign for 150 metre social distancing for this special class of horseless carriage – lateral and vertical, methinks.
201
In another couple of years the people who have bought them will probably start demanding compensation from the government of their country for being conned into thinking that they were benefitting everybody by choosing electric vehicles.
30
If it closes the airport, then the fire advances the “stop oil” agenda.
171
This is something you should all know.
I write fire reports.
If 1 EV catches fire and lets say 80 ICE vehicles catch fire at the same incident… (eg. Luton)
It gets reported in our fire reports. Those fire affected vehicles are added to the database. 1 EV, 80 ICE vehicles
So if the database started today, right now, the usual “Experts” reviewing our database would report that:
“ICE vehicles are 80 times more likely to catch fire than an EV!”
Please understand all, the data padding/distortion that is used… It is just not the BOM that does it.
It is disgraceful.
820
“There are lies, damn lies and statistics.”
230
“Emergency power, Scotty!”
“Captain, my dilithium crystals are glowing red-hot. She cannae take much more!”
“Maintain Power…”
210
The fire chief at Luton airport has said that the car park had no sprinkler system. But it wouldn’t make a difference to battery fires, which need no oxygen.
340
Link to excellent contribution from William X Sept 28 Tesla emergency response guides.
I believe the Tesla’s recommendation regarding the Bouldercombe (QLD) energy storage battery fire last month was to not use water.
80
Let’s try to imagine what kind of sprinkler system would contain those EV Fires — drop down inflatable glass fibre shells or like jet sprayed asbestos.
Let your imagination run …
130
Maybe they should run the sprinklers with super-chilled brine just for the EVs?
30
I have just found that to which you refer 🙂 I apologise for linking to Cadogan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9evJV2o8UU
10
No, oxygen has nothing to do with it when they are in thermal runaway. What they need is water, lots and lots of water.
10
It would have made a difference in the spread of the fire among the ICEs which, I assume, were the majority. It would still have been a mess, maybe not such a big mess.
I have yet to hear of a standard, Prius style, hybrid auto combusting.
00
Toyota have been using NiMH batteries in their hybrids for exactly the reason of reducing the fire risk. It could still short circuit and catch fire but the intensity is much lower.
However, it’s worth double checking the exact make and model just to be sure there’s no Lithium.
30
I posted this before I noticed that Hanrahan had beaten me to it.
A sprinkler system might possibly have prevented the fire from spreading to most of the ICE vehicles.
00
Sprinkler systems are often not so much about putting the fire out but cooling the structure to prevent collapse.
You don’t want the rebar in the concrete or any structural steel going soft
00
How do we know if there was even the first electric vehicle there?
50
Some reports are stating that the initial fire was in a diesel vehicle. Regardless, if you park a burning ICE vehicle next to an EV, you suddenly have moved from a potentially controllable incident to an uncontrollable catastrophe.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12618033/started-London-Luton-car-park-fire-moment.html
161
Thanks Steve, (and MrGrimNasty and Ed Z and Jim below)
UPDATE added to the post: Apparently the word is that it was a diesel car that started the fire. The question is then, if there were no EV’s on that floor, would it have spread just as fast, would the floor have collapsed, and would cars have exploded like popcorn in the microwave? Awaiting the BBC gurus…
201
Later reports state it was a diesel car that exploded but then ev’s caught fire in a domino effect. With 100 firemen involved it was certainly a major incident far beyond merely the result of one conventional vehicle catching fire
A place like Luton would likely be frequented by London people who have a higher proportion of electric vehicles than natipnally. So on the same floor could have been a dozen ev’s and it would be the luck of the draw if one was parked close enough to the burning diesel car to then catch fire itself and cause this domino effect.
120
Not with sprinklers it wouldn’t.
00
U will wait and wait…………………ZZZZZZZZ
The facts aren’t welcome when the situation is political.In that case
aims necessarily justify means. Communist Manifesto………ZZZZZZZZZ
20
If it was diesel, then it is almost certainly a hybrid. A close up shows intense flames under the car consistent with an electrical explosion where the charger is located.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/11/10/76417223-12618033-Shocking_footage_has_emerged_of_a_vehicle_going_up_in_flames_at_-m-38_1697015074424.jpg
It would not need to be charging for such an event. Just an unprotected electrical fault being fed from the battery.
https://thegreencarguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/gcg_rr_phev_illustration-1024×576.jpg
Irrespective of how it started, the spread of the fire would have been accelerated by successive BEVs going BANG!
This will surely cause BEVs to be banned from enclosed parking areas.
80
I’m not buying it. I have been around diesels my whole life starting with farm tractors. A million miles and thousands of hours. Never seen it happen or even heard of it. Even had a tractor struck by lightening. Didn’t catch fire. If it was an ICE diesel it was likely arson.
70
Concerns about EV bus station potential ‘volcano’ under flats.
https://twitter.com/NetZeroWatch/status/1712030831357616545
(Source paywalled but you get the idea!)
100
The fire brigade says the source was a car ‘with a diesel engine’, the words may be important, was it a hybrid?
The video of the initial explosion is not how diesel burns, it was like a massive bomb, maybe it was a bomb?
200
Hold your fire …..
Fire crew: it was not an EV but a diesel powered car that had arrived shortly before.
33
Not convinced by Fire Crew report.
I think it must have started in the battery of a diesel hybrid.
50
From the BBC Website –
Liam Smith, crew commander at Leighton Buzzard fire station, said that when he arrived, the fire was mainly on the third floor.
But it quickly spread down to the lower floors when the third floor started to collapse.
He said there were “lots of electric vehicles potentially involved quite early on”.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67075159
160
should be very difficult to get insurance on an EV
70
If we could just have an EV free parking zone perhaps I could get a discount on my insurance…
230
Say like the UK
Or Australia …
Free of EVs.
Parked or otherwise.
Fingers crossed.
Auto
70
It is getting more difficult and a lot more expensive.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs
50
12 volt battery in a diesel Range Rover
31
DEWALT electric lawnmower at an expo last year , pretty sure it was a launch of this new super green cutting machine .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyG-JjejJvM
60
Bit of a problem, first firie has no BA, walks through the smoke plume, not a good idea if it was a battery fire.
40
Jo Nova: “Let’s try to imagine what kind of sprinkler system would contain those EV Fires — drop down inflatable glass fibre shells or like jet sprayed asbestos. Let your imagination run …”
It was pointed out several months ago on WUWT that placing a burning EV into a sealed fire containment box of some kind would result in the buildup of high pressure explosive gases inside the box, effectively creating a bomb of considerable explosive power.
It was also suggested that special EV parking structures could be built with individual EV fire containment compartments for each parked EV which can be sealed in the event of a fire. But this approach has a similar problem. If a fire containment compartment holding a burning EV is sealed, it too becomes a bomb as the EV fire progresses.
110
…??.. how can enclosing a self sustaining fire in a sealed enclosure enable a build up of explosive (flamable) gasses. ?
Pressure would build up, ( and could be vented) ,.but any “explosive gasses” would burn in the continuing fire.
01
My immediate thought, too, was EV fire, and we know they will say anything to protect the narrative, so I don’t don’t trust that it was a diesel, the hardest to ignite.
But I looked for stats anyway, and found this (official figures):
“Although some reports suggest that electric car owners are less likely to experience a fire in their vehicles, at least one study that looks at figures from the Department for Trade suggests the opposite to be true. In this analysis of London figures, there is a 0.04% likelihood of a petrol or diesel car catching fire but a 0.1% incident rate with electric cars.”
https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics-uk/#7_Electric_vehicles_are_more_likely_to_catch_fire_than_petrol_and_diesel
By the way, it is a pretty new building. It did not collapse and the fire was confined to the top floor.
80
Not quite Phil. Here’s the latest BBC update.
120
Yes, thanks. I saw the new clips this morning. The early pictures I had seen were obviously overtaken by events.
A technical expert for the AA confirmed that diesel is “much less flammable” than petrol and in a car it takes “intense pressure or sustained flame” to ignite, and it does seem there was fire before the explosion.
As a jokey aside, there is a large local campaign to stop the expansion of the airport (why, when the plan is to confine us to 15-minute cities and allow us 4 flights per lifetime, I cannot fathom), but I don’t think the protesters would resort to terrorism; they are not that kind of people (yet!).
10
*See the video of the supposed start of the fire. And footage where the car is visible. Seems like a very big explosion. Some are saying it was a hybrid diesel.
https://twitter.com/Gasman2O/status/1712016847455834336
https://twitter.com/wallstreetsheet/status/1712122385254486496
Like wow. That second video. It’s like a bomb.
100
Just before the explosion something falls from the ceiling, before the whole thing caves in and explodes. Are we looking at the original seat of the fire or is it breaking through from the floor above?
Would gas or aviation fuel lines be hung from the ceiling, it would seem insane?
Or maybe the pancake collapse ruptured one or more petrol tanks violently and caused the explosion.
51
Could be something like this:
https://media.landrover.com/news/2020/07/new-48v-mild-hybrid-diesel-joins-plug-electric-range-rover
30
Yes we’ve established that, a now familiar battery pack blowtorch can be seen emerging from the underside left of the vehicle, the subsequent explosion does not appear to originate directly from the same vehicle.
20
The charger on the Land Rover PHEV is under the passenger seat. That looks like where the explosion comes from.
The charger is quite a large box so may have decent size capacitors for smoothing and it may not be protected for reverse power from the battery.
https://thegreencarguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/gcg_rr_phev_illustration-1024×576.jpg
It does not take a lot of energy in a confined space to make a big bang.
30
I don’t think the main explosion comes directly from the first vehicle on fire.
10
….
Ahh, speculate , speculate,..who to believe ..?
Was it a diesel ? If so it was not a Range Rover PHEV, because that is a petrol engine .
The Diesel RR Hybrid is a 48v , non Plug in, and hence no on board charger, and a much smaller battery.
And …. In what form of construction does a steel framed car park collapse in a fire ?
02
“And …. In what form of construction does a steel framed car park collapse in a fire ?”
Looks just like 9/11, an inside job ? Where were the CIA on that day ? 🙂
21
At least it’s not a Smart car
20
Before we burn all the witches, some facts
https://www.autoweek.com/news/a44938407/battery-electric-vehicle-car-fires/#
That does leave the question of hybrids, which are the worst of both worlds
https://insideevs.com/news/561549/study-evs-smallest-fire-risk/
13
Ya kiddin me!
That link says 5% of ALL ICEs catch fire. 3,474.5 hybrids and 1,529.9 petrol per 100,000 sold.
Want to reconsider that post?
20
I gave links, if you don’t believe them, provide your own
For example, cut and paste this : ice vs ev fires. ,- that was the search term I used.
but if you like your stats on kilometres traveled by vehicle type then download this https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2020-tesla-impact-report.pdf
search for fire
by the way I searched both links for your “5% of ALL ICEs catch fire. 3,474.5 hybrids and 1,529.9 petrol per 100,000 sold.” not found, so do you want to reconsider?
13
https://insideevs.com/news/561549/study-evs-smallest-fire-risk/
Fully electric vehicles, on the other hand, were deemed far safer than both hybirds and gas cars; they are far less likely to catch fire, with just 25.1 fires per 100,000 sales. That’s compared to 3,474 hybrid fires and 1,529 ICE fires per 100,000 sales respectively.
Got the 5% from his long expired bag of facts.
Hirise car parks have been burning ever since Hirise carparks were first constructed.
https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RIPL-ABCB-REP-001-rev-0-issued.pdf
Over the period 2014-18, Ahrens (NFPA) found the USA had an annual average of 1,858 vehicle fires
in commercial parking facilities, causing on average 20 injuries but no deaths.
However, since 2000, an increasing number of countries have become concerned that modern cars
present a new, more serious fire hazard. Recent research (covered in Section 4) contradicts past
assumptions about car fire intensity and car fire spread. Modern-day car fires are more intense in
terms of peak heat release rate (HRR) and total heat output. It is no longer tenable to think car fires
are unlikely to spread to adjacent vehicles, or that fire spread will be limited to just 5 to 7 cars.
I think it has more to do with the materials used in the manufacture of vehicles, they used to be all metal, now more plastics.
20
So full EV vehicles have a lower fire risk than full ICE, Therefore you would divide the hybrids proportionally
so for each ev you have 60 odd ice fires.
So if you divide hybrid numbers by 60 you get 57 which is therefore the number where the ev battery was the problem.
but burn the witches!
02
The first link is your link, I was looking for where he got his mythical 5% from, not trying to prove you wrong.
Without knowing the cause, I don’t know how to proportion the blame, if you use EV numbers or ice numbers as the metric, either way ICE fails.
I don’t know why we ever stopped burning witches, there now making a comeback.
00
I want a link that shows 5% of ALL ice’s catch fire.
It’s a big web, you can find any rubbish you want. You repost it, you own it.
Show me insurance figures that say 5% of cars burn.
21
It makes me suspicious … I bet they are including cases where the ignition source is not part of the vehicle itself:
* Stolen cars ditched and deliberately burned out.
* Fires that start inside the vehicle cabin due to some flamable item brought in.
* Fires that spread to the vehicle from outside (e.g. burning rubbish bin nearby in carpark).
* Insurance jobs, trying to make it look like an accident.
* Vehicle parked in garage and that structure catches fire resulting in burnt vehicle.
The fact that none of these studies so much as discuss source of ignition and because they have suddenly popped out now it’s a political topic makes me think the only way they can get big numbers is sneaking in a lot of dishonest cases. There’s no other way they could get anywhere near 5%.
10
It was a diesel car that started it? Uh-huh. Just like the Fremantle Highway.
22
Another success – a thumbs down. Leftie upset. Win.
32
I find now if I’m following a Tesla or any other EV, I’ll back off a little and leave plenty of room ahead and I also won’t park next to one.
21
I never park beside any EV if I can help it, partly because the EV might explode but primarily because the owners are always so weird.
10
Diesel is very hard to ignite. You can put a cigarette out in a saucer of it. Sounds improbable that it was the diesel part of any vehicle that started a fire.
100
Not considered newsworthy in Their Australian. Why is that?
10
There was an article about this fire in The Australian at 9:45pm Wednesday night, EDST. That’s about 10 hours before you wrote that.
00
and the ABC released an article while the fire was still burning.
10
Well, The Voice isn’t going as well as the ABC would like and they were probably running out of ways to promote Palestine and equate Aboriginal land rights here to the middle east.
21
Either that or they were just reporting breaking news
00
Oh yeah. Forgot they might just do that. I’ve been affected by the number of times they pick and choose the story and narrative rather than just report breaking news. 😉
10
oooooh sorry. Not there now, not considered newsworthy today. Only in the middle of the night.
01
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/londons-luton-airport-suspends-flights-due-to-significant-fire/news-story/fa288f9aaf259116ca55b0b02763b091
Well, where it ranks in the scheme of international news at the moment means that it’s not going sit prominently in Aus reader threads for too long. Particularly as it’s more than 24 hrs since the actual fire. But it’s still available to read per above link.
I doubt there’s any agenda driving where it sits in the feeds.
What reason would you give for it not being on the front page of The Aus this morning?
Seems to be similarly tucked away on the ABC news site.
20
That was a huge fire alright, the bangs likely were tyres exploding making a shotgun like blast.
00
Diesel has a flashpoint of 66 deg, what was the air temp at Luton at 9pm.
11
there is a difference between flashpoint and autoignition temperature, which is around 210C for diesel.
30
So it was a brand new carpark, was it that new fangled low carbon concrete.
50
R.A.A.C., reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete, has been used in the construction of non-residential buildings in the U.K. for several decades. It is now described as a ‘ticking time bomb’ and has forced the full closure of 24 schools and over 100 have been ordered to find emergency accomodation until classrooms have been made safe. At least two roofs have collapsed in U.K. schools so far.
It is estimated by structural experts (there’s that word again) that around ‘half’ of the four million non-residential buildings in the U.K. are affected by the material in some way.
Perhaps not the best choice for multi-storey carparks and certainly not very ‘sustainable’ either if they require replacement after every structural failure.
20
It is irrelevant where/how the fire started, it could even have been arson/terrorism, nothing changes. It’s a FACT that battery fires are uncontrollable, liquid fires are.
70
You thinking what I’m thinking?
It’s those Russians.
To rectify the result, you must determine the cause. How the fire started is 100% relevant.
https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RIPL-ABCB-REP-001-rev-0-issued.pdf
00
Rubbish. What matters is why the fire could not be controlled and therefore destroyed a strong concrete building.
20
Oh my, you wrote it and yet you don’t understand what you wrote.
Control the fire. Prevention is the whole point, not put a hose on it.
Remove the risk, controls are then used if the risk can’t be eliminated, as controls can also bring in risks. (water on a fuel, oil fire)
Fire departments spend days sorting through the ashes, trying to ascertain cause. Not looking for the hose.
00
Did the Luton airport weather station record higher than average temperatures at the time of the fire?
If so, I wonder if the data will be used as evidence for CO2 generated ‘catastrophic’ global heating.
31
The temperature is recorded between the car park https://www.google.com/maps/place/Terminal+Car+Park+2,+Short+Term+Car+Park,+Luton+LU2+8PE,+UK/@51.876496,-0.378288,1228m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x487637dc8951fa3f:0x11c194675f1ed4da!8m2!3d51.8779386!4d-0.3729753!16s%2Fg%2F11c4sljtys?entry=ttu
and the main runway about 200m south of the fire.
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3330736
10
Try Lighting Diesel with a match
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7soVqyGq4i4&ab_channel=GidovanTienhoven
20
The R101 used diesel fuel because it was less flammable (as per throwing a lighted match into a pail full, but the burning hydrogen may have set it alight or possible the diesel reptured from the hot engine may have set the gas alight. We don’t know.
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/crowd-look-at-the-wreckage-of-the-crashed-airship-r101-at-beauvais-picture-id2635552
10
We could switch to the newly developed non flammable fuel I covered days ago…
00
How about we keep doing what we have always done and stop promoting the CO2 is evil mantra.
20
Things ain’t what they used to be. And it would vary with suppliers and location.
I think the distillate we get here has a more volatile component than what we used to get years ago. The stuff the average punter gets in summer is not the same as in winter. Bigger users might use tighter specs.
I think it might be not real hard to light some modern engine oils with a match.
01
A previous story for a similar car. Again sadly not clear if it is the hybrid model.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10461299/Mothers-58-000-Range-Rover-Velar-exploded-like-bomb-parked-outside-home.html
Although not related to these versions there is a recent recall which might be a clue:
“Jaguar Land Rover North America, LLC (Land Rover) is recalling one 2023 Land Rover Range Rover PHEV vehicle. A bolt for the high voltage battery may not be secured properly, which can result in the high voltage battery sparking and overheating.”
30
G’day,
This appears relevant:
this blurb includes the MHEV version of the Land Rover which includes a diesel option.
https://www.landrover.com.au/electric/suv.html
Cheers
Dave B
00
Assuming that a plain vanilla Camry hybrid is MHEV, it has a 1.6kWh traction battery. Mine would have a NiMH battery anyway.
Even if it did have a thermal runaway, the heat generated would only be a fraction of that generated in a pure EV fire and conventional fire fighting would most likely limit damage.
Does anyone have evidence of one auto combusting and setting fire to vehicles near it?
00
Hanrahan, your Camry is not a MHEV, it is a conventional Hybrid using Toyotas propriety high voltage (800v), integrated electric hybrid drive.
An MHEV is by definition a MILD Hybrid , defined by its low power electric drive (15-20 kW) and using a low voltage (48v) “Altermotor” (combined alternator and starter motor) to provide a mild electrical assist.
This have widely been used in the US ( Cadilac, GM, etc) and Europe with Merc, Audi, VW, etc using them to reduce emissions and fuel use.
00
Land Rover seem to ptefer to call their “Alternator/motor “ unit a BiSG (Belt integrated Starter, Generator ) ..!!
And sttate that the 48 v battery is 8 ah ?
….which is obviously wrong since that is smaller than the battery on those rental scooters !
Other MHEV manufacturers use batteries at least 4-5 times bigger .
00
By the sounds of it I don’t want it. Neither your ass nor your elbow.
01
If by evidence you mean facts, and you can’t do internet searches with a preschool education.
https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RIPL-ABCB-REP-001-rev-0-issued.pdf
00
Only an educated idiot doesn’t know the difference between a Prius and a BEV.
00
Your preschool education letting you down. You asked a question, on page 10 of that link is a small history of fires and the amount of vehicles involved.
Links are included for a reason, but they need to be opened, read and understood.
I helped you with the first, the rest is up to you.
I do not care what the difference is between a Prius and a BEV. I have no intention of ever owning one, but I see Chad had to educate you on EV’s.
00
What’s that poem? For want of a nail …
For want of a bolt … the whole bloody car park was lost.
00
Welcome to the Electric Utopia where normal vehicles shoulder the blame for EV shortcomings.
70
“The furious blaze broke out at a newly built multi-storey car park beside the airport’s Terminal 2 building.”
‘Furious blaze’, sounds like a perfect description of an EV fire.
40
Did everyone see John Cadogan’s video the other day on S. Korea’s plan to introduce oxygen into truck drivers cabins to help them stay awake?
https://youtu.be/PNeS5qqaeio?si=RXoA1Uljn2kNL1JI
Oxygen cylinders would be another fad, like EV’s, that just make accidents worse, because some bright spark would probably suggest they be fitted to cars too.
The validity of the physiological aspects is for another day.
00
AS I remember, there were two catastrophic fires in Iraqi hospitals during the pandemic.
At the time it seemed to me that people may have overlooked the effect of high local atmospheric oxygen content from ventilation coupled with daytime temps of 50 degrees making an explosive mix.
10
Since when did Oxygen become a flamable gas ??
00
It lowers the ignition point, in an oxygen rich atmosphere, carbon steel will burn like paper.
Oil will ignite from just stepping on a spill, compression is enough.
That’s the point he was making.
10
For that to happen it would require both a very high temperature initially, and a predominant concentration of oxygen.(80+%)
..Neither of which could have been present in that situation.
00
I know all about O2, I have worked in both LOX and GOX plants.
The point is, as O2 concentration increases combustion point decreases for everything. Technically he is correct, the 50 degree’s in a hospital bit is the strange remark.
10
But what was the Oxygen going to combine with to explode ?
00
Not a good idea from the physiological point of view.
They should let the CNS do its job: interfering can be tricky.
00
the daily mail is reporting that it was a range rover and a model which has caused fires previously
11
Yep, but it would appear the Range Rover is a hybrid and maybe the Lithium battery is the ignition point – which makes the diesel literally the fuel.
10
If a vehicle has been in a significant fire then surely it shouldn’t be reused.
10
Very good link Peter.
I try to diagnose the cause of the fire below. At #40
00
A little off topic but it will be a lawyers’ picnic assigning costs.
The vehicle insurers will sue the airport authority for not having sprinklers, for starters.
00
“Let’s try to imagine what kind of sprinkler system would contain those EV Fires”
One was called Halon, which we banned (to questionable effect), another is aqueous film forming foam (AFFF) which costs many times more to add or retrofit, is corrosive, and requires various carbon relesing materials to create and to use. Fire containment could also be accomplished in engeineering design at an immense cost in weight and materials.
20
“could also be accomplished in engeineering design”
The imagination runs riot.
Batteries towed behind the EV on a small, inconspicuous trailer could be easily detached in the event of emergency.
🙂
00
There is nothing small or inconspicuous about a trailer carrying half a ton or more of battery .!
…but it should make parking lots a source of much fun !👍
00
Sexist pig, womens driving matters.
00
McClaren (hybrid) lithium batteries have been known to be shorted out, yet not “gone critical” and fire did not spread to even the whole pack. They use a tough enclosure and a hybrid isn’t overloaded with batteries. Best defense would be to minimize the number of cells, and to use a safer and more efficient energy storage material — like gasoline.
But we could add an antioxident — “a flux” — and a thick inner enclosure of ceramic or glass fiber — like a welding blanket — to surround small packages of cells, then use a battery coolant that acts like AFFF in supressing fire. Of course the result would cost and weigh even more and carry even less.
But if you’re gonna pull a trailer, put a diesel generator in it: problem solved.
00
..Neither of which will have any effect on a lithium battery fire !
10
What car is that?
The picture of the burning car is a bit indistinct but it does look like a Range Rover!
This confirmed by Peter Fitzroy above who links to the Daily Mail.
https://joannenova.com.au/2023/10/cars-exploding-at-luton-airport-london-huge-fire-causes-partial-collapse-of-structure/#comment-2706212
Fire fighters say it was a diesel car and we see from the pictures that it is burning fiercely underneath. The stories also say that the fire started while the car was still moving!
What caused the Fire!
I surmise therefore that the car likely had a ruptured fuel line which sprayed diesel fuel onto the catalytic converter ( located beneath the car). Newer diesel cars have a catalytic converter and they are very hot. My car fortunately does not have one.
If the driver had had the wit to switch off his car when he kept out the fuel pump would have turned off and the fire would likely have gone out! However with modern keyless ignition that might be difficult, especially if the key has been left in a handbag or similar.
00
We’ve known what make it was from the get go.
The question is is it the hybrid diesel version. The flare is from the high voltage battery location, just as likely as the catalyst.
00
Whatever started the fire, it is obvious the major fuel source that spread the fire was burning petrol/ diesel from melting fuel tanks, , aggrivated by the open building design that allowed liquid fuel to spread and run between floors.
Impossible to contain or suppress without huge amounts of foam to engulf the entire car park.
At best , EVs were a “bit part” player in this.
12
Credit NetZero watch. Hybrid?
https://youtu.be/G-zKTqe19ss?feature=shared
10
Thanks MGN,
A bit long but entertaining and informative.
Does the RR sport have a lithium battery behind the left front wheel arch?
00
A more technical analysis of the event can be found here, in Oz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk0MWDsueMY
Modern churnalism: “When the “legend” is bigger than the real story, PRINT THE LEGEND”!!
00