JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


Handbooks


Advertising


Australian Speakers Agency



GoldNerds

The nerds have the numbers on precious metals investments on the ASX



The Skeptics Handbook

Think it has been debunked? See here.

The Skeptics Handbook II

Climate Money Paper



Archives

Books

Weekend Unthreaded

8.3 out of 10 based on 16 ratings

195 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    Scott

    Hi all,

    I was hoping for an open thread this weekend to post this, but, as there has not been one yet I am using this thread.

    I have been contemplating whether or not to raise this for a while, so here goes.

    Some or all of you may be aware of this but I think it is important to post in case you are not.

    If you are like me you would have spent the majority of you adult life knowing there was something terribly wrong with the world and that things were not as you were told. The fact that you participate in this blog is evidence of that.

    I discovered this in mid 2018 and was immediately heartened and hopeful that, finally, there was some hope for the future.

    I am not religious but I now have faith that good will triumph.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVeDKuHPDK8

    This second link will hopefully give you some (further?) understanding of what the US President and his team are fighting against. Make no mistake, there is evil in the world and it is currently in charge everywhere.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQc9s8JDVck

    There is a ton of evidence to support both links, if you are willing to see it.

    I hope this helps, at least some of you, to understand.

    My best to you all.

    Scott
    [Happy to help Scott, moved from previous thread – Jo]

    134

    • #
      PeterS

      Tells it as it is but Trump is not our Saviour simply because he’s just one man, and he won’t be current President forever. If anyone believes the next Presidents will be as good as Trump must have their heads in the sand. The evil ones will not give up and are far from being beaten. If anything, they are gaining more and more control but most people are blind to it. The current pandemic crisis will be used to their advantage, regardless of whether they had a direct hand in it or not (probably not). There is only one hope; Christ Jesus our Saviour will return to set things right once and for all and throw the evil ones into the Lake of Fire. It’s the only way. As it is written by the Word of God it will be done.

      79

      • #
        Scott

        Hi PeterS,

        Trump is not the movement. This has been planned for many years and Military Intelligence is behind it. The President is the face to the public. Much more to it than just him but the Deep State need to remove him to regain the levers of the Presidency.

        They will prevail, and soon the world will know.

        People of good will are going to win.

        77

        • #
          PeterS

          No matter how much good will comes about form mankind there will be more than enough ill will to overcome it. It’s been that way since year dot. There is only one way to defeat evil as I explained.

          47

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    Sure nice to see the pollution drop away over the last few weeks.

    815

    • #
      AndyG55

      ????

      You are still commenting.!

      64

    • #
      el gordo

      The green/left are saying this is what life will be like when fossil fuels disappear, a strange chortling noise is also audible.

      122

      • #
        AndyG55

        “The green/left are saying this is what life will be like when fossil fuels disappear”

        Yep, pretty funny that they would want to advertise that point, isn’t it.

        Except we would be locked at home, with no electricity for a lot of the time.

        Wouldn’t that be fun.

        101

    • #
      AndyG55

      https://waqi.info/#/c/-32.959/151.402/9.7z

      Find the local ones with a year’s data showing (hover over a tag)

      Pretty similar to this time last year

      Many places in China have far similar or WORSE pollution that this time last year.

      Seems Peter is working with non-data, as usual.

      91

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        so this is false?
        Economic lockdown causes strong reduction in air pollution globally – SMH
        or
        The Pandemic Is Turning the Natural World Upside Down – The Atlantic
        or
        Coronavirus: lockdown’s effect on air pollution provides rare glimpse of low-carbon future – air quality news

        Many places in China were not shut down.

        610

        • #
          Annie

          Ah! The two faces of Peter F on the same comment stream. 🙂

          93

        • #
          AndyG55

          Data vs propaganda newspaper articles, hey Peter….. Very funny . 😉

          “provides rare glimpse of low-carbon future”

          Carbon dioxide is not pollution, so whoever wrote that is as nil-informed as you are.

          A low carbon future can only exist on the MASSIVE manufacturing of solar panels and wind turbines

          Then you are talking REAL pollution, some of the most toxic compounds around, and the horrendous POLLUTION from mining and refining those rare earth minerals.

          You should plead the fifth, so you don’t always incriminate yourself by exposing your ingnorance.

          152

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Low carbon future = no economy.

            Mud huts and early death, disease and short brutal life.

            Um….no thanks….

            The lefty greenies love it, but Im convinced they arent quite right in the grey matter…

            100

            • #
              farmerbraun

              Low carbon = low life.
              Carbon based life forms protest this blatant example of hate -speech.
              Not only that ; it’s racist.

              20

              • #
                Kalm Keith

                Their behaviour is obviously CarboPhobic and should be condemned outright.

                There’s too much angst in this media driven world already and an unthinking, uncritical tolerance of CarboPhobia simply should not be accepted.

                KK

                20

          • #
            Another Ian

            “You should plead the fifth’

            This one?

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_(unit)

            10

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Karbon Double Oxide has nothing to do with pollution.

          Porrution ;

          SO2, NO2, SiO2 particulate, particulate C, H2S and Arsenic which the NSW state government curiously overlooked recently in Newcastle harbour.

          Grow a pair.

          It’s always useful to have a functional left and right hemisphere, and even better if they are linked.

          Sorry, I can’t provide a link.

          KK

          70

        • #
          Chad

          Peter Fitzroy
          April 19, 2020 at 5:45 pm ·
          Coronavirus: lockdown’s effect on air pollution provides rare glimpse of low-carbon future – air quality news

          If it is a glimpse, its a low carbon future with a still increasing CO2 level !
          https://www.co2.earth/daily-co2

          40

        • #
          farmerbraun

          Look I’m sorry, but if you haven’t been on facebook and listed the half-dozen or more auto-immune diseases that you are suffering from, chosen from the list of scores of such diseases, available now on facebook, then you really are not in a position to comment on anything at all.
          You really need to get yourself some gravitas, otherwise everyone is going to be laughing at you.
          You do realise that the lockdown of all healthy people is imperative if all those with auto-immune diseases are to be treated as equals.
          We are all in this together .
          I trust you enjoyed the “concert” . It was certainly a concerted effort.
          One world together , was it?

          01

    • #
      Travis T. Jones

      Further evidence reducing ‘pollution’ does not alter weather aka climate.

      90

      • #
        Maptram

        Also, the lower average temperatures that we are experiencing this year, started before the conavirus shut downs and pollution reducing activity started.

        60

    • #
      David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

      And our coal fired power stations are operating unabated. Interesting!!!
      Cheers
      Dave B

      120

      • #

        The odd thing is (well, I really expected it) that the percentage of supply from coal fired power has actually risen, by a couple of percent. It’s not that there’s more coming from coal fired power, as it’s around the same as it usually is at this time of the year, with Units off line for scheduled maintenance in the lead up to the Winter requirement. There’s less from natural gas fired power, and less from hydro power, with wind and solar doing what they usually do, providing very little, I mean what else can you realistically call 10% on a good day, not enough to actually do anything, and it’s up and down as well.

        Overall power consumption is slightly lower with a lot less power being consumed in the Commerce and Industrial sectors, hence the normal supply from coal fired power means a slightly higher percentage of supply.

        Tony.

        191

        • #
          TedM

          “I mean what else can you realistically call 10% on a good day,”

          Love it Tony, just the facts. I just love the truth, and you have hit it right on the head.

          90

    • #
      TedM

      Just which Peter Fitzroy are we listening to now?

      20

    • #
      Graeme#4

      Yes, it was interesting to see the water around Venice a nice blue for a change.

      30

    • #
      Leo Morgan

      Honestly in Hobart I’m not seeing or feeling any difference.
      Perhaps you’re living in a more congested area, but I doubt the price in lives and poverty is worth the change you tell me you’re seeing.

      20

    • #
      GD

      I can’t see a difference in my neck of the woods, Peter. It’s still clear skies and pleasant Autumn weather.

      20

  • #
    DonS

    Hi Jo

    I saw an interesting news item this morning. Apparently due to the shutdown of the ethanol industry in the US there will be a 30% shortfall in the amount of CO2 produced for products such as beer, soft drinks, refrigeration, meat fruit and veg preservation etc.

    Who would have thought we would be talking about a shortage of CO2? Can’t live with it, can’t live without it apparently.

    170

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Jo,

    Try misspelling your URL as just josnnenova.com a common mistake in the states. Some SOB has stolen your name and is using it against you. I think it may be the state of California.

    The domain is for sale so the current user is not only using your name without permission but technically trespassing.

    If you could buy that domain you could redirect it to the right place.

    Roy

    90

  • #
    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Belongs with comment 5. How do I lose the reply status and become an independent comment?

      20

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        I have not gotten anything right all day and certainly fouled up this last mess which should have been simple and easy.

        I need a couple of shots of Cutty Sark on one ice cube and a kick in the butt.

        Doggone it, my taste for quality is way beyond my budget

        70

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Roy, somebody mentioned Gin, Blue Sapphire, a few days ago, I tried it. The bottle’s now empty.

          I now need to try Curry Sark.

          KK. 🙂

          20

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Cutty

            10

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Never been a gin man myself except if someone offers me a mixed drink with gin in it.

            I never liked plain scotch but the blended stuff can be really smooth going down. My wife and I keep a bottle of Southern Comfort around to put in eggnog at Christmas. You should give that one a try sometime.

            Anyway, one day I was killing time in an airport bar and there was a bottle o Cutty in the shelf behind the the bar and the ship on the label caught my attention. I pondered what I would get if I ordered it but decided to try it. I ordered it my usual way on one ice cube and it was an instant hit…goes down as smooth a silk. Expensive stuff though.

            Why one ice cube you might ask. Simple, keeps what I’m enjoying from being diluted with water too fast and still keeps my drink cold.

            50

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      That link is now blocked Roy.
      Good sleuthing tho’

      81

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Funny that it’s blocked because I was there just before posting the comment about it and it worked. I can still reach it from here. I guess they may have restricted access to stateside users.

        Cheaters will go to the lowest measures to counter someone telling the truth.

        71

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Link wouldn’t open Roy but I tried the word but don’t speak what looks to be Spanish .

      30

    • #
      AndyG55

      Are you sure that’s the correct link, Roy ?.. says “www.joanenova.com”

      11

  • #
    joseph

    For those who are waiting for the Coronavirus 19 vaccine, just a little on the polio vaccine. Did it really vanquish the polio epidemics?

    “According to a piece in The Vaccine Reaction,

    “Perhaps the most egregious example of clever sleight of hand (… not to mention the outright, blatant rewriting of history) on the part of public health officials in the United States occurred in 1954 when the U.S. government changed the diagnostic criteria for polio. It was the year that medical researcher and virologist Jonas Salk produced his inactivated injectable polio vaccine (IPV). The vaccine was licensed in 1955 and began to be used to inoculate millions of children against polio.
    The Salk vaccine has been widely hailed as the vanquisher of polio, and it is commonly used as the shining example of how vaccines are the miracle drugs for combating infectious diseases… and now even against diseases that are not infectious. Pick any disease, illness or disorder you want. You got cancer, cholera, peanut allergies, stress, obesity… we’ll develop a vaccine for it. …
    What is conveniently omitted from this heroic story is that the reason the number of polio cases in the U.S. dropped so precipitously following the mass introduction of the Salk vaccine in 1955 was not medical, but rather administrative. …

    [I]n 1954 the U.S. government simply redefined polio.[1]

    Back in 1961, an article in the Chicago Tribune discusses this redefinition of polio:

    The definition of polio also has changed in the last six or seven years. Several diseases which were often diagnosed as polio are now classified as aseptic meningitis or Illnesses caused by one of the Coxsackie or Echo viruses. The number of polio cases in 1961 cannot accurately be compared with those in, say 1952, because the criteria for diagnosis have changed”.[2]

    https://www.vaccinesandchristianity.org/2019/04/22/youve-been-conned-polio-was-redefined-making-the-vaccine-look-effective/

    68

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Are we sure about this?

      I wasn’t aware of polio victims in my vaccinated peers, but those a few years older were visibly damaged without the needle.

      40

    • #
      TedM

      Joseph I lived through one of the series of polio epidemics in the first half of the 20th century. Once the salk vaccine was introduced the incidence of polio fell to zero in my part of the world. It had been a reality of life for my generation up to then.

      I would suggest that what you are posting is an anti vaxxers interpretation of history.

      101

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        I agree Ted.
        My recollection from long ago confirms that.
        I can recall eagerly lining up for my polio needles.

        KK

        41

        • #
          TedM

          And probably also remember having to dip your hands in disinfectant before you left the classroom to go to recess or lunch break at school. One of the girls from my school survived because of the iron lung.

          51

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            We didn’t have disinfectant but I had seen older people who had been struck by polio and I knew I didn’t want it.

            KK

            40

    • #
      joseph

      TedM,
      I lived through one of those epidemics at that time as well, and I had the vaccinations.
      I wonder if you read the linked article? It gives a lot of info on the redefinition. And it may explain why polio went to zero in your part of the world.

      21

    • #
      sophocles

      I remember my polio vaccinations well.

      But, whatever you do, Don’t Panic!™ Oxford University thinks they can produce a single dose vaccine and have it ready to go within three months.

      They did develop penicillin during WW2 … so they have a bit of cred …

      20

    • #
      Fred Streeter

      Why the fuss?

      How else can one identify the effectiveness of a vaccine without clearly defining its target?

      By defining new, more stringent, criteria for the symptoms of poliomyelitis caused by the Polio Virus, they attempted to rule out infections by other viruses that presented similar symptoms.

      I would agree that one cannot compare chalk and cheese and Hip Hip Hooraying the decline in “Polio” by the 1960s as compared to the 1940s.

      However, Hip Hip Hooraying the decline in “Polio” since the 1960s is justified.

      00

  • #
    Paul Miskelly

    And Peter,
    Hasn’t it been great to see wind’s performance crashing through the floor, and not just once during this time?
    Have a look at today’s effort at: https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy
    Click the big “MW” button at the right of the “Today’s Wind Energy Production” title at the link above and similarly at the right of the Wind Energy Production During …” title for each chart below.
    That resulting black line running across the chart is the total wind-produced electricity output on the Eastern Australian Grid during the course of the last 24 hours. It’s a running figure, updated every 5 minutes or so.

    Notice that the bottoming-out for today’s output at around 06:00 (Sunday 18 April 2020) cannot be made up by solar PV – it’s something to do with being a pre-sunrise time.

    Have a look at the performance for April 2020 so far:
    https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2020/april
    and March: https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2020/march

    Keep in mind that if the grid was powered 100-percent by wind generation, these results shows a system-wide blackout at each and every deep dip, and for lots of the time around each dip.

    Can’t really do “smart-metering” and cause lots of brown-outs during the dips when we need all those hospital ICU’s up and running now, do we?
    And we can’t really do “smart-metering”, similarly, and take out lots of households when it’s absolutely essential that, with everyone locked down at home, because should the electricity supply fail, we would soon have rioting in the streets.

    Remember, 1 major grid outage every 10 years is a totally unacceptable criterion.
    Here we see the potential, in an all-renewables future, for something of the order of 3 such outages every month.

    Also remember that at present there is just over 7000 MW (7 GW) of installed wind capacity now connected to the Eastern Australian Grid, spread right across the grid, so we can’t really say, can we, that a bit more geographic dispersion of the wind farms would smooth that result out.

    By any measure, this is not only a thoroughly downright dangerous situation, it is an utterly pathetic performance.

    It’s about time our leaders woke up to the fact that these intermittent renewables are a completely pointless response to anything really, and most certainly not to the need to reduce CO2 emissions.

    All that coal-fired plant that, fortunately, we still have, has to be up and running, very inefficiently for the most part, ready to plug these gaps in wind generation.

    Hopefully TonyfromOz will be in a position to have something constructive to add.

    Thanks for all your efforts, Jo, to keep us informed during this terrible time.

    Paul Miskelly

    100

  • #
    Zed

    Just stumbled across this article.
    Fighting cancer with the common cold!
    Now that’s interesting.

    https://www.newcastle.edu.au/research-and-innovation/research-impact/using-cold-virus

    20

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Beware. That’s not only interesting it’s too good to be true. Anyone selling something can say anything on the Internet as we all know.

      21

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    The Australian government’s covid19 app-

    Sure google maps tracks all my movements, but google don’t have a police force ready to knock on my door.

    There are many in both major parties who have called me a denier and have never refuted anyone who has called for my arrest or even death for questioning their failed claims of an apocalypse.

    I don’t trust them or the next politician and will not be downloading your app.

    70

    • #
      el gordo

      Its OK Travis, the PM said he won’t make it mandatory.

      My feeling is that the required 40% will be easily reached by millennials and those who come after them.

      51

    • #
      RickWill

      I am all for the app. I will be less inclined toward it if it slows my brick. Maybe the government will come to the party and upgrade my brick to something more modern if it is too slow.

      The app does not track. It relies on bluetooth proximity for 15 minutes or more to exchange number with said proximal phone or phones. So all it records is the phone number of people carrying their phone with the app and being within bluetooth range for more than 15 minutes. Diagnosis of an individual with CV19 would result in the testing facility using your phone and its bluetooth cCV19 ontact register to phone the numbers in the register and advise them that a particular person has CV19. You may not even know the individual as the contact could be in a store, pub or restaurant for example. There is no central database.

      I expect all employers will require employees with phones to install the app. It will be a condition of the work place. Hard to enforce outside the workplace but a quick audit would soon show if the app was not active for a period.

      I expect people in high contact jobs like GPs will be encouraged to use and it could be made a requirement to enter clinics that it is functional. It is the ultimate personal protective device that works population wide if enough are using it.

      The code is being released so the conspiracy theorists can get it checked out to know what it actually does.

      66

      • #
        RexAlan

        My understanding is that it works without GPS, WiFi or Data enabled, only Bluetooth. The phone numbers of people in your vicinity will be stored only on your phone and not sent to a central data base. If you contract the virus you can release this data to the health authorities for them to track and trace. As RickWill says the code is to be open source so it can be checked.

        My OS is Linux which is open source. I will have no hesitation in using this app.

        62

      • #
        ianl

        > ” … conspiracy theorists …”

        Sorry RickWill but that phrase is just snark. Disappointing that you use it. My very long experience is that bureaucrats treasure hiding information from the public, so you would need to reverse engineer the application live before installation, not just when it is initially released for comment. If you think not, then try to understand why the ABS suddenly decided to keep census information (including your IP address) against 150 years of practice.

        Are you able to answer these questions in your enthusiasm for this application:

        1) what actually happens to you if your bluetooth bundle of proximity phones includes someone who is infected ? Are you automatically quarantined for 2 weeks, tested, what ? Be specific.

        2) what if, like me, you do not own an IPhonie, or a Droidie ? I regard Apple gizmos as toys for children, and Google now is simply beyond the pale in its’ lust for your personal information. This application will not load into other O/S phones. You have to buy another phone to have your social credit licence and full citizenship ? Oh, and I don’t use Tweetie Pie or In Your Face either. Sewers.

        92

        • #
          RickWill

          Not sure why you are sorry!
          Answers to questions.
          1) Tested – negative test – good; positive test – quarantine. I would be disgusted to think I transmitted the virus to anyone else. There are people I normally have regular contact with who would be classed as highly vulnerable as well as two of my sons who are in the medical profession. Both treat elderly patients often having disabilities.

          2) You will not be able to use the app – unlucky.

          11

      • #
        farmerbraun

        In the food processing industry , employees are encouraged to leave their cell phones outside, for very obvious hygiene reasons. Preferably at home.
        Absolutely forbidden on the premises.
        Cell phones are fascinating little virus/bacteria transporters.

        20

      • #
        yarpos

        Wow, straight from the liberal play book. The superiority, the name calling if you dont beleive what I beleive , even using one of their favourite phrases. Its been intersting to watch the site sub divide on Covid into alarmists and sceptics (and the application of all the usual lables). Ironic.

        20

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Turn off bluetooth and location services and it should “blind” the app anyway.

      I have also seen many ways to create localized DDoS attacks against bluetooth devices in your local vicinity, thus stopping bluetooth usage. No app using bluetooth would find another bluetooth device nearby…

      Many ways to skin a cat…so to speak…

      30

  • #
    David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

    Today we discovered a new word: “mal-information”. It goes with “misinformation” and “disinformation”.
    We discovered it after I’d said that I thought the two latter words were being used interchangeably in a press report, and she decided to look them up to get a precise meaning (and correctly identified the difference between them). Here’s what she found:

    ” Council of Europe’s Information Disorder Report:

    Misinformation: Information that is false, but not created with the intention of causing harm (e.g. someone posting an article containing now out of date information but not realizing it).
    ..
    Disinformation: Information that is false and deliberately created to harm a person, social group, organization or country (e.g. a competitor purposely posting false statistics about your organization with an intent to discredit you)
    ..
    Mal-information: Information that is based on reality, used to inflict harm on a person, organization or country (e.g. someone using a picture of a dead child refugee (with no context) in an effort to ignite hatred of a particular ethnic group they are against. ”

    I think the our media are capable of all three paths to falsehood. In my opinion the new one is the most insidious and used extensively in the “climate debate”.

    Cheers
    Dave B

    100

  • #

    … thought of one, – yr ‘Noble lie’, ‘ends justify the means’ path to falsehood.

    20

  • #
    Peter C

    SloMo says 4 more weeks of lockdown!

    Is that to eliminate the virus or is to buy time until we have more of everything needed (that we were supposed to have but did not have) such as PPE, Mask, Hand Sanitiser, testing kits etc?

    The plan is never made clear.

    However I think events elsewhere will move faster and that may change the Government’s approach. USA is already starting to let up, even though they have much less control of the virus than we have achieved here.

    They are talking about restarting elective surgery in Victoria. We have not heard about any deaths among people who need cardiac bypass surgery for example but that does not mean they are not happening.

    Today was a nice day in Melbourne and I noticed a lot more people out and about.

    70

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Today was a nice day in Melbourne and I noticed a lot more people out and about.

      Watch Melbourne’s stats in 12 to 14 days’ time, Peter C.

      30

    • #
      Robber

      Last 7 days in Australia average 140 recoveries per day, new cases 43 per day.
      Unfortunately the curve seems to be flattening on new cases.
      Best case scenario is that by end April we could be close to zero in a couple of States.
      Then allow 14 days for new cases to progress to recovery, so that by mid May governments may be ready to significantly ease restrictions. Sport back by June 1?

      30

  • #
  • #
    TdeF

    Personally I am thrilled at the response of everyone, across the world. War is not declared but the deaths are incredible. And no matter how incredible, they are far, far less than I would have expected. Everyone is isolating and it is working. It’s like a bad dream but if you stay inside and mind your own business, it all goes away. Amazing.

    A virus expects new victims. It is built into the design. Deny it new victims, new virus factories and it dies. It’s so simple that it is unbelievable and unfortunately many commentators cannot believe it. And many people think it is intelligent, that it responds, adapts, hides. No, the virus is incredibly stupid. It just infects and reproduces and kills. All we have to do is isolate it.

    Still I fear that no one is explaining this to the population. And there are seriously qualified doctors who believe in herd immunity. That’s like a bomb shelter against a nuclear attack. Useless. Or Stalin putting the railway stations 80 metres underground. Useless.

    All we have to do is isolate. It needs to be explained by Scott Morrison and Donald Trump and Boris Johnson. But first they have to understand it. We do not have to lose any lives. And it will be gone forever, as quickly as it arrived. It is just a nasty chemical. Panic is its ally.

    66

    • #
      TdeF

      And for those in financial difficulty, remember there are thousands, even hundreds of thousands, millions like you. Just brave it out. The bank can foreclose on a few, the landlord can evict, but if everyone is in trouble, the banks and landlords are also in trouble. So just tough it out. Talk to them. The fact is, they need you as much as you need them. So there will always be an accommodation, a deal. Even without the government. And it will all settle down and in time, it will be fine. I just wish Morrison would say this.

      57

    • #
      Peter C

      if you stay inside and mind your own business, it all goes away. Amazing.

      TdeF,

      Why does it take so long? Two weeks isolation and it should be over. But we have been in lockdown for 4 weeks and 4 more weeks to go.

      I think contract tracing and quarantine should do the trick. By all means add masks and 1.5m social distancing. That has worked so far.

      84

      • #
        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        G’day Peter C,
        I’ve been wondering about that 4 week figure also, and I’ve got an idea/ theory with two steps:
        1. I think we’ve got to get the daily “new cases” number down to zero, and have it stay there. My guess is that could take 2 weeks if all goes well, just to get that string of zeroes happening; and
        2. We’ve got to get those last found cases through the quarantine period, and free of the virus, giving a second two weeks.
        And there are the wild cards, mainly the plane loads of stranded Aussies coming home, straight into quarantine.
        Cheers
        Dave B

        30

        • #
          Peter C

          Ok,

          But we have to know where the new cases are coming from. Are they all due to stranded Aussies coming home? If so the proper new cases are already zero.

          40

          • #
            sophocles

            stranded kiwis coming home are going into supervised quarantine to ensure we get no Typhoid Maries.

            20

            • #
              farmerbraun

              But shock horror, we have discovered a + test in Wanganui, with no known contacts. Just one out of all the hundreds of tests taken randomly in NZ, nowhere near the cruise ship ports.
              I’m just so relieved it’s in Wanganui where we have good computing. Should be no problem to track this down.

              Curiously , the random testing didn’t include the cruise ship ports.
              Probably nothing.

              01

      • #
        TdeF

        Yes, the blip is due to doctors on the Greg Mortimer trip to Antarctica. They left 2 hours before flights closed and damn the consequences. Mostly doctors. As one said, he paid $57,000 for the trip. If you can afford to pay so much, you can afford to walk away. Now our numbers are made from these people, in isolation, paying the price for putting their holiday above the rest of society. Surely they could have stayed home and watched Happy Feet?

        On the positive side, the numbers are fake and the disguise the fact that we have nearly wiped out this virus. And we should soon be at zero and by mid May, ready to resume our normal lives. It just makes me angry, the selfishness and arrogance of a few. What was so important in Antarctica?

        80

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          The medical profession has a well earned reputation for arrogance.
          It sort of comes naturally with having people’s lives in your hands so much.

          For which reason when dumping my old GP for exactly this reason
          I did some research online about local GP’s in the Adelaide Hills.
          I picked the one who apologised for a mistake that he made with a patient.
          That I felt showed some humility.
          And I was right. He does have that.

          40

      • #
        TdeF

        It’s the trickle of ships, like the staff on the Ruby Princess. The German boat in Perth. And especially the Greg Mortimer cruise, which set our numbers back two weeks. However that is illusory, as the numbers are all in isolation. Plus one superspreader in Tasmania connected to the Ruby Princess. It has been a lot easier to pull from 450 a day to 50 than from 50 a day to zero. Still we are starting to see states with no new cases. By the end of the week, as predicted, we will reach single digits with a real hope of zero in teh following week.

        Then I cannot see a risk in opening the country internally, with the proviso that travel must be minimized. No non essential travel. No interstate travel. No inter city travel. Villages and downtown can open. Schools and universities. The trick is to ask people to go out as little as possible, to travel as little as possible. 99% of people will be fine with that.

        And a month later, we can start to open the country to visitors, but we really have to think about international travel. The rest of the world will be a disaster zone. And they will all want to come here.

        50

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Peter, the two weeks is what it takes for a virus particle to degrade & break up when it lacks victims.
        The problem is that various persons have become new victims.

        How exactly ? Well North west Tasmania provides a good example.
        Step 1 : have an infected person undiagnosed ‘released’ off the Ruby Princess in Sydney and fly to Tasmania
        Step 2 : Go to hospital with symptoms and see a medical person who does not maintain social distancing and so this person gets the virus – asymptomatically
        Step 3 : Medical staff have a party. ( They need a good drink and some down time ? ) & the infected person gives it to others at the party who are also asymptomatic
        Step 4 : Asymptomatic medical staff treat patients at hospitals & old aged homes and spread this disease to persons at these places.
        Step 5 One of the people infected is dishonest to the Contact Tracing people about who she has had contact with.
        Step 6 : More infections appear in places where the dishonest person was working.
        Step 7 : Angry Tasmanian government puts all medical staff in the region into quarantine; arranges a deep clean of the hospitals & the aged care centers. And asks the Australian government to provide military medical personal to re-start the hospitals. %000+ people in quarantine. The entire region closed off to the outside world.

        Summing up : the answer to your question about why not 2 weeks : human stupidity and selfishness mate !

        60

    • #
      Orson

      TdeF “I fear no one is explaining this.” Me too. It needs repeating. The virtue of inaction and restraint!

      00

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Is it also possible the virus was “assisted” to become a chimera?

    htps://www.sciencealert.com/genome-analysis-of-the-coronavirus-suggests-two-viruses-may-have-combined

    “In addition, these genomic comparisons suggest that the SARS-Cov-2 virus is the result of a recombination between two different viruses, one close to RaTG13 and the other closer to the pangolin virus. In other words, it is a chimera between two pre-existing viruses.

    “This recombination mechanism had already been described in coronaviruses, in particular to explain the origin of SARS-CoV. It is important to know that recombination results in a new virus potentially capable of infecting a new host species.

    “For recombination to occur, the two divergent viruses must have infected the same organism simultaneously.

    “Two questions remain unanswered: in which organism did this recombination occur? (a bat, a pangolin or another species?) And above all, under what conditions did this recombination take place

    30

  • #
    Peter C

    US clinical trials of hydroxychloroquine hit ‘warp speed,’ could show in weeks whether it works on coronavirus
    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/15/coronavirus-us-clinical-trials-of-hydroxychloroquine-hit-warp-speed.html

    Federal health regulators have fast-tracked approvals for coronavirus research, allowing scientists across the nation to skip through months of red tape.
    Researchers at NYU Langone on March 24 launched one of the nation’s largest hydroxychloroquine studies and enrolled their first patient 10 days later.

    10 days to enrol their first patient! That sounds like they are really busting it to get an answer.

    80

  • #
    max

    The CDC is now “actively looking into” into universal COVID-19 testing at Pine Street Inn homeless shelter.

    The broad-scale testing took place at the shelter in Boston’s South End a week and a half ago because of a small cluster of cases there.

    Of the 397 people tested, 146 people tested positive. Not a single one had any symptoms.

    “It was like a double knockout punch. The number of positives was shocking, but the fact that 100 percent of the positives had no symptoms was equally shocking,” said Dr. Jim O’Connell, president of Boston Health Care for the Homeless Program, which provides medical care at the city’s shelters.

    O’Connell said that the findings have changed the future of COVID-19 screenings at Boston’s homeless shelters.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/shocking-report-shows-half-homeless-boston-shelter-tested-positive-covid-19-and-none

    50

  • #
    cedarhill

    Some may not be aware that CV-19, like most of the respiratory viruses is not immune to the effects of the Sun.

    https://news.yahoo.com/sunlight-destroys-coronavirus-very-quickly-new-government-tests-find-but-experts-say-pandemic-could-still-last-through-summer-200745675.html

    Although some reports claim differently. All prior viruses of this type are killed by the UV of the Sun, it’s likely true. Meaning all those open-the-beach orders may not be as bad as some think. Note also, the continuing of all the could and maybes similar to those used with climate change.

    50

    • #
      TdeF

      That’s a bit misleading. If you get it from a stranger at the beach, the sun does not matter. The beaches are not a problem in themselves, except that young people congregate. That’s what they do.

      Where sunshine is it good news is that casual traces quickly become harmless, but sunshine of itself does not provide any protection at all.

      What it means is that traces left on surfaces decompose quickly in sunshine. That means a lot for our food supply and our trade and our imports and exports, which are 99% by ship. Those few weeks in the weather and sunshine and through the tropics means we do not have a problem running the normal business of Australia which is coal, iron ore, wheat, cattle. Of course we could export other things, except we do not make anything else. Prawns and lobsters perhaps.

      40

      • #
        cedarhill

        Nothing misleading.
        Never claimed anything of the sort.
        Never claimed protection.
        Just facts.

        You’re just tossing out strawmen.

        Sunlight and humidity and wind do matter – especially if one worships social distancing. Not only will the viral “load” to very small but the organisms are killed as they waft around. Unless you’re a homeopathic believer.

        In over 70 years of frequenting beaches, I can’t recall anyone “catching” the flu or a cold just from visiting the beach.

        It seems fair to say beach going has a tiny risk for CV-19 since nothing is 100%.

        41

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          %-6000 young young mostly foreign frolickers on Bondi beach
          Was a huge infectious disease hazard.
          At that age hugs, kisses and cuddles are all driven by the overwhelming need to have sex and breed.
          And so in the days following there was a cluster of asymptomatic carriers in the area.
          Sunlight protected them not at all

          11

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Cederhil, 5- 6000 young young mostly foreign frolickers on Bondi beach
          Was a huge infectious disease hazard.
          At that age hugs, kisses and cuddles are all driven by the overwhelming need to have sex and breed.
          And so in the days following there was a cluster of asymptomatic carriers in the area.
          Sunlight protected them not at all

          30

  • #
    Zed

    Well now…this is interesting. Just released.
    The Covid-19 immunity band:

    https://wearlifekey.com/pages/covid-19-immunity-band

    What’s even MORE interesting is that when I ran a domain age check it was registered back in 2018!!!

    Couple that with the statement by Fauci back in 2017 about a pandemic in Trump’s term and it suggests a nasty conclusion…

    31

  • #
    cedarhill

    And just ran across this article, which, intentionally, is meant to be provocative:

    https://www.aier.org/article/well-that-unraveled-fast/?fbclid=IwAR3ebwR3aOQhqmdmQKObvQ-AnnTukHghQ-bo-AI1dX2l3vbvraxkXTtJfXQ

    As an economist, he laments lack of data. However, then there’s this another one about CV-19 following a fixed pattern of CV-19 he derived from reported dataabout how the charts:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rkM9YI-ZviHAHUblcMv3w7vQSmDw7EXC/view?fbclid=IwAR2inl-BqU8x_ountheRmB_UPWnEI3LRKNevVSa7bdsrU9HH3xtysAkDAOY

    Caution, you may need a translator.

    00

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      Ahhh, yes, an American Constitutional rights focused economist.
      I think I’ll stick with Jo’s assessment.
      It makes better sense
      And she has been completely correct since Feb 3rd when discussing this virus.

      Good luck Americans dealing with this disease.
      But the virus does not care a [email protected] about constitutional rights.
      It just wants more victims to make sick & kill.
      And you will have to agree to surrender some of them for a while
      So all your 330 million people survive the attack of this virus.

      21

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    This issue has been floating around in my head a while.
    But E M Smith on Chiefio blog beat me to it. So with his permission I’m posting it here :

    “Basically every Globalist Goal increases the severity of contagion or heslth risk.
    Pack everyone in cities. Check.
    Live in apartment blocks, shared facilities. Check.
    Public transit. Check.
    Work in major corporations – cubicals, assembly lines. Check.
    Meals in cafeterias, fast food places. Check.
    Reusable shopping bags. Check.
    Child care centers. Check.
    Public schooling in mass facilities. Check.
    Government run big health care clinics. Semi-check. It trys not to, but….

    Rack em, pack em, and stack em is not good for children and other living things.”

    But I guess some folks here will squabble about this as well…

    50

  • #
    RicDre

    One of the shortages caused by the coronavirus lockdown that made no sense to me was the disappearance of all of the ice from the grocery stores but then I read the article below and it all made sense:

    Hard At Work: Nancy Pelosi Shows James Corden Her Extensive Stock of Ice Cream

    https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment/2020/04/15/pelosi-shows-james-corden-her-extensive-stock-of-ice-cream/

    20

  • #
  • #
    TdeF

    On Malcolm Turnbull’s tome explaining why he lost, blaming everyone but himself. And Scot Morrison ‘did not deserve to win’. Everyone was a treacherous schemer it seems. All this without a shred of self awareness. As usual.

    A copy of his new book has been circulating by email and this has killed sales and prices. The blame is directed at an enemy within, which would be no surprise. However it could be far simpler.

    I had a friend whose older books were never word processors and he wanted to publish on Kindle. I found my clever little Brother combination photocopier, colour printer, scanner also had scores of other modes to produce PDF and even an OCR mode to a file. So you scanned the book, even two pages at a time, multiple columns, footnote, page numbers and received a perfectly good formatted and editable file. Amazingly clever and fast. But then a lawyer and banker would not know that.

    It may be that no one wants to pay to read another fairy tale. Like Nikki Savva’s book. Both had to be changed when Scott Morrison won handsomely. And is doing a great job.

    Worse for Malcolm, there is a motion to have him removed for life from the Liberal Party he once led as he has disclosed he was really a Green and personally responsible for bringing the very left wing Gaurdian to Australia while trying to redefine the Menzies Conservative Liberals as Turnbull’s Liberals, a Green Progressive party in his own image. A lot will be hoping the motion succeeds. He and his ‘Black Hand’ who betrayed Tony Abbott and the electorate did their best to destroy the Liberals and all jumped ship before it hit the rocks. Which in turn saved it. That’s the real story.

    You would hope that Morrison can find a spare $12 Billion by stopping Turnbull’s unjustifiable monument to himself, Snowy II. Or asks for the $440 Million back that Malcolm gave without request or plan to Lucy’s Green friends to ‘save’ the Great Barrier Reef.

    And the Australian has been running front page advertisements for the $80Billion submarine contract for South Australia to build the world’s slowest French diesel submarines which in the words of Tony Abbott are worse than what we already have.

    There’s plenty of money there to help the recovery. And if they canned the RET, electricity prices would plummet, helping everyone. We have to stop saving the planet and save ourselves for a change. It has taken a deadly virus to make that clear.

    90

    • #
      GD

      We have to stop saving the planet and save ourselves for a change. It has taken a deadly virus to make that clear

      But will Scott Morrison listen?

      ScoMo has proven his worth with stopping the boats, now he is proving his worth with controlling the spread of the virus and also attempting to keep the economy alive. Whether he succeeds remains to be seen.

      Will he reopen the nation for business too soon, or too late?

      The next month will tell. The last thing we want to have is a second lock-down. Heavens, Dan Andrews would go berserk with totalitarian strictures if that were to happen.

      Regarding the climate hoax, ScoMo seems to have a blind spot. However, he can’t be that stupid as to not have heard Craig Kelly, Matt Canavan, and Tony Abbott expose the futility of adhering to the Paris Agreement. Surely he has heard Rowan Dean on Sky expose the hoax week in, week out.

      Why is ScoMo being so stubborn?

      Morrison could be a great Prime Minister if he scores three out of three.

      So far he has one, maybe two, but is nowhere near number three, the climate hoax.

      50

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        GD, please understand we are a federal nation with states & territories.
        The states control the lock down.
        NOT Morrison
        Here in SA we’ve had 2 days in a row with ZERO new cases.
        After two weeks the virus will be eliminated in SA.
        So our STATE government could then ease the lock down.
        But we must Keep Border control to stop any virus entering from other states.
        Until they get their total to zero for 2 weeks.
        Simple !

        23

    • #
      Annie

      There is no way I would have bought the book, even as TP if remaindered.

      30

  • #

    Checklist of Green Deal cost elements
    By David Wojick
    https://www.cfact.org/2020/04/18/checklist-of-green-deal-cost-elements/

    The beginning:

    Green Deal proposals are springing up around the world. The core concept is zero CO2 emissions via decarbonization. The proponents of these Green Deals deliberately avoid cost estimates because the costs are horrendous. To help force these huge costs out into the open I have developed the following simple checklist of Green Deal cost elements. Any comprehensive cost estimate needs to address all of these elements, most of which are unbelievably expensive. I have included some comments on the cost drivers as well.

    Note that social elements like those in the Green New Deal (free health care, etc.) are not included. My list is just about the cost of decarbonization.

    Checklist of decarbonization cost elements (with comments)

    A. Electric power grid (with zero fossil fuel carbon emissions)

    1. Generation (from central power plants)

    Feasibility of CCS is a major unknown.

    2. Transmission

    Especially for widely distributed renewable sites.

    3. Distribution

    EV charging stations are a major addition.

    4. In-building or facility distribution (behind the meter)

    Most existing buildings may need rewired for EVs.

    5. Generation behind the meter

    Primarily solar.

    Note: Electrification of transportation and other fossil fuel uses will dramatically increase the amount of electricity required to be generated, transmitted and distributed.

    There are a lot more elements listed in the article.

    Please share this widely.

    David

    30

  • #
  • #
    RicDre

    Guardian: Covid-19 is President Trump’s Fault for Failing to Protect Endangered Species in China

    My favorite comments from the article:

    Orange man bad, even when the problems being discussed happen in another country outside the USA’s sphere of influence … Of course if President Trump did try to pass a law aimed at pressuring Chinese wet markets, the Guardian would be first in line to accuse Trump of being an insensitive cultural fascist.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/04/19/guardian-covid-19-is-president-trumps-fault-for-failing-to-protect-endangered-species-in-china/

    40

  • #
  • #
  • #
    bobl

    Most people don’t know that the majority of the Salk vaccines in the 60s (which was incubated in primates) was contaminated with a cancer causing primate virus SV40 which is possibly responsible for a large proportion of the cancer epidemic seen in 55-65 year olds at the moment.

    Polio vaccine is the prime example of how NOT to do vaccines.

    02

  • #
    Robber

    Disaster modelling – make it really scary. Vic modelling showed that without the lock down, Vic would have seen up to 58,000 new coronavirus cases every day at the peak of the pandemic and 36,000 Victorians would have died. The Monash Universty and Doherty Institute modelling was undertaken in collaboration with epidemiology experts in Victoria’s Department of Health and Human Services.
    Wow! Worse than Italy, or Spain or UK, and nearly as many deaths as the whole USA?
    That’s some “model”.

    40

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      🙂

      10

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Paywalled !
      And who actually believes anything from Doherty anyway ?
      Jo here forecast accurately what was going to happen if we did not close the borders.
      They ignored her.
      And then were forced to act in March.
      But by then the measures needed to eliminate htis foreign CCP virus were far harsher.
      Ummm ?

      20

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    Yet another country which has a response to this virus
    Verging on criminal :
    Belarus !
    News.com reports that thousands of Belarusians converged on churches across the country to celebrate Easter, ignoring calls from health authorities and church leaders to stay at home to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. One believer is reported as saying ‘The traditions of our parents, our fathers, grandfathers should be preserved. I think we did not commit any sacrilege when we arrived today. I believe that God will protect us,” at the traditional blessing at Minsk Cathedral.

    Belarus has not impose lockdown measures or close borders to curb the epidemic. The state media ridicule fears over the new coronavirus, while the country’s president calls fears around it “mass psychosis”. President Alexander Lukashenko said on Sunday that the authorities’ strategy was correct. “You know my position: we survive these viruses every year”

    No doubt just as in Ecuador following the Catholic Easter gatherings, we will soon see many many people sick & dying. Very very stupid !

    Belarus is not going to eliminate the Wuhan virus anytime soon. And I think most other countries blocking the entry of anyone who lives and Belarus or travels through it.

    10

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Seems the green menace have had enough of the Corona virus taking all the publicity off their CAGW ideological cause and are taking the NSW government to court over their inaction on reducing the emissions that made this years bushfires so bad .
    No link and I just caught the last few minutes of the story on the radio , ABC of course .

    20

  • #
    Kim

    Everything is going to be taken over by the events – by the course of the events. One of the major factors will be available funds – they just won’t be there. That means massive slimming down of government. And massive work on making government as efficient as possible. It also means reducing all unnecessary government expenditure for all projects including ‘climate change’ projects. If the left want to fund any of those projects then they need to fund them out of their own pocket.

    20

  • #
    Robber

    Another industry in decline across Australia – electricity generation.
    Wholesale electricity prices per AEMO about $40/MWhr in April, compared to over $80 in April last year.

    10

  • #
    Lee Valentine

    The brilliant professor has discovered the learning curve!

    00

  • #
    Lee Valentine

    The brilliant professor has discovered the learning curve!

    00

  • #
    Bill Burrows

    For those bloggers desperate for a day in court to challenge the widely held premise that rising atmospheric CO2 concentrations are the cause of alleged modern day climate change – here is your opportunity to test your arguments before the judiciary. See: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-20/nsw-bushfire-survivors-launch-court-action-against-epa/12164348 and associated reports.

    The following seems to precis the key point:

    David Morris, chief executive of the [NSW] Environmental Defenders Office, said his clients were calling on the EPA to better protect communities for the future.
    “As the body pre-eminently responsible for the protection of the environment, you can’t successfully achieve that [protection] if you’re ignoring the greatest threat to the environment,” he said.

    “There’s a statutory mandate to protect the environment … but the EPA don’t (sic) have a current policy to regulate greenhouse gas emissions.
    “Those two things can’t co-exist.

    “You can’t be both required to protect the environment and then ignore its greatest threat.

    “We [are] simply asking the court to tell the EPA go and create environmental quality objectives with respect to greenhouse gas emissions, regulate the pollution and use their existing powers to do so.”
    —————————————
    The case is listed in the NSW Land and Environment Court in Sydney for May 8, 2020. The question is – Are this blog and its commenters up to the challenge? Or do they know of any sceptics who would welcome the opportunity to enjoin the argument in this Court, if there is any way feasible & practical way to do so?

    Apologies if this potential Court case has already been reported and acted upon by Jo and/or her commenters on this blog. [I’m sorry to say I’m only an irregular reader and contributor due to other ongoing commitments].

    10

    • #
      robert rosicka

      I did post the link to an ABC article on it but you pose some great questions Bill , basically it looks like climate change will get its day in court but unfortunately the minister responsible in NSW is a greenie so I fear this will be a no contest .
      Hopefully Jo has picked up on this because I fear a whitewash given how far the left have infiltrated into the NSW liberal party .
      Remembering that this office also had a hand in a coal mine not being approved.

      10

      • #
        Bill Burrows

        Thanks Robert
        Yes I can understand your concern about political and other agendas. But while I’m no lawyer it seems to me that the NSW EDO is challenging the Court to deliver a judgment declaring that modern day ‘Climate Change’ is due to increasing CO2 concentrations in the earth’s atmosphere (that largely derive from anthropogenic GHG emissions). Most commenters on this blog would strongly dispute such an assertion and finding.

        Courts supposedly reach their findings/verdicts based on evidence do they not? God help us if our courts defer to the opinions of politicians rather than base their decisions on scientific evidence in cases such as this!

        Over the years there have been innumerable comments made on this blog and many others (e.g. WUWT) just begging for a day in Court to settle this endless argument based on evidence rather than opinion. Is the opportunity presented by the NSW EDO to be by-passed by sceptics – or will they seize the moment as John Scopes and Clarence Darrow did in advancing the evidence for evolution, as opposed to religious fundamentalism, in 1925?

        10

        • #
          robert rosicka

          When it comes to climate change a theory and a model counts for evidence apparently and given that the minister in charge of the EPA is noted for his alarmist views I can’t see him wanting to mount much of a defence .
          Yes it’s going to court but look at who is on either side it’s nothing but green suing green .

          00

  • #
    Bill Burrows

    True enough. But leaving it to green vs green would allow the EDO to proclaim (if it succeeded in persuading the Court that AGW was entirely due to rising CO2 emissions as a result of human activities) that an Australian Court of Law had endorsed its argument. Wouldn’t that be a great propaganda result for greenies to advance to the punters and all of our political masters and the MSM, for example?. It seems to me that sceptics can not afford to leave themselves open to such propaganda. Smarter sceptics than me and especially those with an understanding of judicial processes need to advise whether my fears are warranted or not. Pell didn’t win his case in the court of public opinion. He won it in a Court of Law.

    10

    • #
      robert rosicka

      If it goes in front of a court and a greenie judge presides it may set a precedent and that’s the danger .

      00

      • #
        Bill Burrows

        A far bigger danger is that when presented with an opportunity to advance their argument (before an Australian Court of Law) that human induced rises in CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere are not responsible for AGW, sceptics opted out. (Of course an even bigger danger than this is that sceptics do not have true conviction that they can sustain their argument in a Court of Law). Poor fellow my country – should that be the final result.

        00

  • #
    Another Ian

    Some tunesmithing

    “William York: Waltzing with Malcolm (Rewording a national anthem)”

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2020/04/20/william-york-waltzing-with-malcolm-rewording-a-national-anthem/

    Regards

    00