JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Tuesday Open Thread

7.8 out of 10 based on 12 ratings

131 comments to Tuesday Open Thread

  • #
    Dennis

    Please send this to your State and Federal representatives, and ask them to explain why they have gone along with peak stupidity;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE

    131

    • #
      Dennis

      Michael Moore: Planet Of The Humans.

      Wind and solar energy sources exposed.

      130

      • #
        TdeF

        Yes, 3.2 Million views.

        That’s only 1% of America but a fair sized city in a few days. And it would be great to see the stats on which countries, which age groups.

        “why are we still addicted to fossil fuels”.

        Because they work? And they are cheaper, even though they are often 90% government tax, at least in Australia. And they just reached a 30 year minimum in price. And we have hundreds of years of coal. And, wait for it, because they are clean energy.

        Unless you consider carbon dioxide, the one essential molecule from which literally all life on earth is made, is a dirty pollutant. And so trees and plants and birds and fish and humans are all horrid pollution. In which case there really is a crisis.

        340

        • #
          MP

          Thought you said previously, Coal was increasing in price?

          12

          • #
            Dennis

            In the US since President Trump removed the Obama Regime anti-gas and oil exploration laws gas has become cheaper than coal so is now favoured for power station fuel.

            80

          • #
            Dennis

            In the US since President Trump removed the Obama Regime anti-gas and oil exploration laws gas has become cheaper than coal so is now favoured for power station fuel.

            20

          • #
            Sceptical Sam

            I wonder if MP really is an MP.

            The fact he can’t do his own homework and keep up with what’s happening to energy prices, makes me think he’s certainly got the makings.

            🙂

            40

            • #
              MP

              Just repeating Tone Deaf’s previous predictions.
              Hows he doing with the metal prices. https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=copper menu bar on the left to select your poison.
              Fertiliser going up, DAP, Urea. US beef dropping across the board. Aus follows US to a degree, though supported by low dollar. (that is monthly updated)

              What does TDef actually farm? (Grapes)

              He predicted everything was fine. Mexico metal industry has been all but shut, which should see an increase as reserves are depleted, but no this is not happening because no one is consuming.
              Can’t run Coal plants on gas.

              I disagree

              Wonder if your really sceptical………Sam

              00

      • #
        TdeF

        Sorry, same link. But it is story of the moment.

        10

      • #
    • #
      Meglort

      Interesting timing to drop this whilst most of the elites running the global climate cult that it exposes are up to their eyeballs in playing out the live run of their Event 201 plan.

      Gates being a common actor in both that scam and being the 2nd largest funder of the WHO. Was Tedros answering to Gates or Xi, or both?

      Why are we extending hospitals for this in cities that have not had more than a couple of new infections in weeks? Is there something I am missing?

      30

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Oh goody….

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-28/covidsafe-tracing-app-data-may-not-be-protected-from-usa/12189372

    “Global tech giant Amazon may not be able to protect Australian Government data held in its Australian servers — including data gathered by the COVID-19 tracing app released on Sunday — from US subpoenas, according to legal experts and crossbenchers.

    “The COVIDSafe app is designed to help identify who a COVID-19 positive person has met while infected, speeding up the contact-tracing process.

    “The Government has defended its decision, revealed last week by the ABC, to award the app’s data-storage contract to Amazon cloud subsidiary Amazon Web Services (AWS), a US-incorporated business subject to the US CLOUD Act.

    “The CLOUD Act is a 2018 US law which requires American cloud services to produce, under subpoena, data held by them regardless of where in the world that data is stored.

    “The Australian Government initially told ABC News data held by Amazon would be protected from the CLOUD Act, but Australia’s peak legal body, the Law Council, disagreed, saying that under current arrangements the appeal avenues under the CLOUD Act “would not have application” in Australia.

    “The Government has also pointed to a Ministerial Determination issued on Saturday by Health Minister Greg Hunt, which it says will also protect the data. The Law Council and two crossbenchers said that was not certain.

    “The federal crossbenchers told ABC News they were concerned the Government had created an uncertain legal situation around the COVID-19 app.

    172

    • #
      JanEarth

      Original Steve

      Yep I saw this as well. I trust USGov almost as much as I trust the CCP so I am out. Plus Amazon… ffs

      Always cautious when downloading new stuff…comes from years of dealing with microsoft updates.

      Shout out to Tony…you were right !

      100

      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        Oh, do come on JanEarth.

        It’s a report from their ABC.

        The first operative word is “may” – as in “may not be able”.

        The Law Council is predominately made up from left leaning lawyers.

        And did you not notice this: “The Law Council and two crossbenchers…”

        Now it doesn’t take much imagination to work out who those”two crossbenchers” might be, does it?

        It’s a typical ABC green-left hit job.

        Zali and Adam have excelled.

        The ABC? Not so much.

        31

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Senator Rex Patrick and his cross bench mates
      Trying to stay relevant
      When they basically are as useful as tits on a bull.

      26

    • #
      PeterS

      Anyone who believes any data collected by any means is always protected, safe and secure must be so gullible. By all means use the app if anyone likes but please don’t expect there is a guarantee it will never be abused. Come on, I thought people were more aware than that.

      90

      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        Alternatively, they don’t give a red rat’s derriere.

        If, in this case, it keeps them and their families safe, it’s a risk they’re prepared to take.

        20

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Never trust even your least personal or important info on the cloud. You never know where it is or what server it resides on or what safety measures it enjoys. Then there’s legal prying.

      Now if that were only possible in 2020 AD.

      20

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        And yes, I refuse to use CE and BCE which are a dodge to avoid reference to Christ. He was a real man whether you believe he was a fraud or God and for a very long time dates were reckoned with reference tho his birth.

        Funny thing, CE and CE are still reckoned with reference to his birth. Otherwise we need to wreck the calendar in use for centuries.

        And that’s the blunt truth. I suggest the world get over the nonsense and stick with the traditional BC ad AD. Not everything is a confederate statue you can topple over and sweep the history it stands for under the rug. Progressive thinking Will destroy everything of our past if we let it. Don’t let it. That past is the foundation we stand on.

        51

        • #
          farmerbraun

          You might like to read about the fightback in NZ Roy.
          https://thebfd.co.nz/2020/04/24/new-zealands-democratic-vacuum/

          20

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            It bothers me too, more than a title bit.

            20

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Farmer.

            Be careful. That link appears to contain material that is not approved for discussion here.

            “Everyone” knows that the only correct approach to CV19 is to affect its total Removal.

            It therefore must be isolated, crushed, ground up, de-synthesised, dismembered and finally penetrated so that it cannot kill any more Aussies than it already has.

            A superb analysis of Australia’s performance is given here by one of our regular leading contributors;

            http://joannenova.com.au/2020/04/the-world-watches-australia-and-nz-tracking-to-zero-can-we-extinguish-coronavirus/#comment-2318527

            It highlights the facts, namely, that other countries have been misguided in their actions whereas us Ozzies have been victorious, once again. Our success at everything we touch is starting to get boring and I have no doubt that this successful approach will be evident when our controllers lift the curfew and move to lift our crushed nation out of the mess they have created.

            10

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          At the time that the change from BC was made, I remember trying to work out why anyone would bother.

          Now that change is symbolic of the cynical manipulations that pervade our lives.

          The big question is how can any country throw off the ball and Chain we all now seem to be shackled with.

          KK

          01

  • #
    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Another excellent reason for sending all the fruit bats back to Qld & NSW.
      They do not belong in SA
      They carry dangerous viruses.
      And are pests in anyones orchard.

      31

  • #
    TdeF

    And while I have watched for years as the usual suspects wind up the story of terrible ‘carbon pollution’ how they expect the world to support more people without more carbon dioxide? And why more people, trees, plants, animals are a bad thing.

    And how they expect people to live if we replace millions of acres of grain field grasses with inedible trees?

    It all paints a picture of an idyllic time and place where life was bountiful and free and the weather was perfect and all animals lived in harmony with each other and people and the lions and tigers were happy vegetarians, as in children’s stories. Now when was that again?

    It is significant that Jeff Gibbs harkens back to his childhood as a time of innocence, when at 9 years old he put sand in the gas tank of a bulldozer? Is that the common dreamtime thread which binds all Greenies, the fight, the need for relevance and meaning in their lives, not any specific problem? Is all change a problem? And they call themselves ‘progressives’ when they are against everything, all change.

    110

    • #
      Greg in NZ

      We simply have to change EVERYTHING . . .

      except the climate, before it’s too late!

      Signed: Doofus Dingbat.

      80

      • #
        Greg in NZ

        Oops, talking of Dingbat Doofus –

        “Ashley Bloomfield has had to walk back comments made by himself and the Prime Minister yesterday about the country having achieved elimination”.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz (attention Jo)

        Despite fawning tripe from the BBC, the Grauniad, the Daily Telegraph and the NY Times, “the war has not been won”.

        Bloomfield said, “I can just clarify we haven’t eliminated it, and we haven’t eradicated it”. Say what?!

        PM Cinders herself reiterated: “Elimination doesn’t mean zero cases… we will have to keep stamping Covid out until there’s a vaccine”. Stamping… sounds like ‘tackling’ as in tackling climate change or whatever.

        Oh dear, how the mighty have fallen in just one day. It’s only words…

        40

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          The question I have is this – if as I suspect the real agenda is forcing mandantory vaccines on us and “immunity passports” that means you are an Untermensch unless you submit to the Gates-driven vaccine-with-nano-microchips-in-the-vaccines agenda, you cant travel or work or do …anything…what then?

          Its medical slavery at that point.

          People need to push back and refuse….

          40

  • #
    TdeF

    I want to make some predictions as spring blossoms in the Northern hemisphere and that half of the planet warms and this one cools.

    It will be very hot this summer in America and Europe. And there will be bushfires in California or Spain or Greece. And there will be tornadoes in the spring in Tornado alley. And multiple hurricanes in the Caribbean. And the Arctic ice sheet will shrink. And someone somewhere in Europe will record the hottest microsecond ever on a specific rooftop, probably where the hot wind comes off Africa.

    And it will all be blamed on Climate Change.

    And there will be no measurable drop in CO2 levels despite shutting down most of the cars and businesses and airports and planes in the world for a few months.

    270

    • #
      Ian Hill

      Didn’t you know? Cold is the new hot! It says so in the media. This coming blast of Antarctic air will produce record rain in Melbourne and snow in the Alps. All caused by the Corona virus reducing CO2.

      Seriously, I hope you are right about the hot NH summer.

      80

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        BOM is forecasting between 15 & 50 mml. for Thursday
        In the Adelaide Hills of SA

        Is that a forecast ?
        Or is it a guess ?
        Maybe they’re just guessing a lot !

        But whatever the farmers here are happily seeding crops.

        40

        • #
          Ian Hill

          I think it is a “nowcast” Bill, a term I saw used in the polar regions. There’s gale force winds outside, therefore that’s what we’re getting!

          Just substitute your own weather.

          30

        • #
          Greg in NZ

          May Day, May Day! International Workers’ Day!

          1st of May, via your BoM’s Alpine Weather page:

          Thredbo NSW, -6°C, snow.
          Hotham VIC, -6°C, snow.
          Kunyani TAS, 0°C, snow to 800m.

          May Day, May Day – Catastrophic Man-made Gobull Worming has caught a dose of Wu-Flu and gone into hiding and/or quarantine: such impeccable timing, brrr!

          50

        • #
          TdeF

          I thought the BOM forecast was for low rainfall for 2020 in the South East? It’s been a joke. Is there nothing their computer models can get right?

          40

          • #
            toorightmate

            The BOM forecasts were far more accurate back in the days when they looked out the window.

            60

    • #
      MP

      Finally predictions you just may be right about

      00

  • #
    DOC

    One way to reduce ‘carbon’ would be to strip the globe of all life, fauna, flora and fish.

    Is this desertification of the planet what the greens want? Even then, the carbon would be
    preserved in the ash! Is there no way for the greens to really get rid of their bogeyman?
    No wonder they always seem extremist when there is no way of achieving eradication of ‘carbon’,
    their professed worst criminal on the face of the planet! Then there’s all that carbon preserved
    underground in fossil fuels. Reality can sometimes be a B…h!

    80

    • #
      el gordo

      Humanity is carbon based.

      ‘It would be impossible for life on earth to exist without carbon. Carbon is the main component of sugars, proteins, fats, DNA, muscle tissue, pretty much everything in your body.’

      Scientificamerican

      70

      • #
        TdeF

        Carbon is the sixth element of the periodic table. It cannot be banned by Greenpeace. You have to be made from something and humans are made from carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and calcium and the rest would be the size of an iron nail.

        The two simplest oxides on the planet are hydrogen oxide, known as water. An carbon oxide, known as carbon dioxide. Combine them with sunlight and you get hydrated carbon dioxide, known as carbohydrates. Ban the lot. Carbohydrates are industrial pollution and turn back into evil CO2 and H2O.

        Greenpeace did once try to ban Chlorine. Goodbye salt an essential ingredient without which we die. Salt is so important that the Egyptians and Romans were paid in salt, known as sal and from which we get the word salary.

        It shows you how much chemistry let alone organic chemistry or biochemistry Greens actually know. And organic chemistry is exclusively the study of compounds of carbon.

        As Ricky Gervais said correctly about the people of Hollywood at the Oscars, most are dropouts who spent less time at school than Greta Thunberg.

        200

  • #
    el gordo

    The government is determined not to be bullied.

    ‘Trade Minister Simon Birmingham says Australia won’t bow to threats of a ban on trade, tourism over its push for a COVID-19 probe.’ Oz

    60

  • #

    I was wondering if there was a clue somewhere in all this about reliance on models.

    Victoria – Modelling predicted 36,000 deaths from the Wuhan Virus, and dear leader Daniel Andrews ran with it saying how he has personally saved the lives of 36,000 Victorians.

    Queensland – Modelling predicted 33,000 deaths from the Wuhan Virus, and dear leader Annastacia Palaszczuk ran with it, saying how she has personally saved the lives of 33,000 Queenslanders.

    Australian Deputy Assistant Senior Poobah Medical Officer Chief Second in Charge, whatsisname, (because no one has heard from him since) well, his modelling predicted that Australia would have 110,000 deaths from the Wuhan Virus.

    There have been 83 deaths in total across the whole of Australia.

    And yet, they based their whole scare campaign information to the public on ….. MODELS.

    In a real spot of extreme bad luck for all these people, those models were proved wrong in a real short time.

    And yet, they base all their climate change whole scare campaign information to the public on ….. umm, dare I even say it ….. MODELS.

    Tony.

    352

    • #
      John F. Hultquist

      Panic 2020.
      Soon to be book title.

      111

    • #
      Bruce J

      At least the models on the catwalks look good!

      80

    • #
      yarpos

      From their perspective all you are describing is their mighty achievement.

      60

    • #
      Doc

      I’m not sure that you are right , Tony. The first models were based on data from China and the
      rate of spread of the infection. The statistical information from that data constructed what to
      Expect if nothing changed, with no treatment. I bow to my seniors here if I get it wrong.
      That information compared with life as usual spurred governments to act against what could
      be a foreseen disaster. As soon as action is taken one expects the statistics to change after
      a latent period in which the already infected take to become symptomatic. Each meaningful change
      in control measures presents a new statistical expectation, a new graph for better or worse.

      Perhaps what is absent from the criticism of the initial expectation is the now appreciated decline
      in other infectious diseases being expressed for this time of the year. The measures taken to
      control CORVID-19 have evidently had a positive effect on the rate of presentation of
      flu , measles etc. perhaps we have a bit of a solution to the annual death rates from other mainly
      Respiratory viral infections that we so easily ignore as being the cost of normal living. A bit more
      hand washing and separation as a part of society could become the new normal, depending on
      The season!. Dreaming of course!

      103

      • #
        TdeF

        Agreed. We dodged thousands of bullets. At great sacrifice for many.

        It seems unbelievable but the UK, France,Germany,Spain and Italy would disagree. Losing up to 1000 people a day each. And the UK is only 2.5x.

        The modelling was right but we shut early and fast. And we are an island and it was summer not winter. Luck, isolation, distance and determination. And the State Premiers were having no part of herd immunity. Thank God.

        103

        • #
          TdeF

          And Scott Morrison has been poorly advised. He needs to work on stopping all infections at our borders, not listening to fatalists. She won’t be right mate.

          94

        • #
          Ian Hill

          State Premiers have been getting excellent advice as far as I can tell. Definitely the case here in SA. 🙂

          11

          • #
            Dennis

            The medical advice is provided to the National Cabinet consisting of State Premiers, Territory Chief Ministers and the Prime Minister.

            State Health Departments are the front line health advisors and providers, State Hospitals.

            10

          • #
            toorightmate

            The Qld Teachers Union is not giving the Qld Premier (and the ABC) very good advice.
            The Premier prefers to ignore medical advise and listen only to the teachers’ union in Qld.

            10

            • #

              The Qld Teachers Union is not giving the Qld Premier (and the ABC) very good advice.
              The Premier prefers to ignore medical advice and listen only to the teachers’ union in Qld.

              Again, please excuse my cynicism.

              Dear leader here in Queensland, Annastacia Palaszczuk, is thinking of relaxing some of the police state necessary draconian regulations this weekend about gatherings etc.

              Who would have thought eh!

              How lucky is that, considering Monday is Union May Day, you know, the Public Holiday, that special day when the workers celebrate their victory over those capitalist boss pigs. If all goes well on that Monday, you know, after the celebratory drinks etc, then I guess there will be no excuse not to go back to school, oh, at least until the next morning when Annastacia says that due to some obscure people visiting the National Parks and not observing social distancing, then I’m afraid I have to clamp back down on you all for your own good, and remember those 33,000 people I personally saved.

              Tony.

              60

              • #
                toorightmate

                Tony,
                My wife and I have yet to decide where we go for our 50Km (return journey) picnic this coming weekend AND we still have not decided who the 1 person is who we are allowed to take on our picnic.
                No one could dream of such utter rubbish.
                It could only come from a CFMEU/Qld Govt “think” tank COMMITTEE.

                60

              • #
                yarpos

                You would think there had been a survey and she found that she was the least popular Premier in the country. Seems the NRL can suddely be given the OK for a start date as well.

                20

              • #
                Geoff Sherrington

                Tony,
                I shall try to get this reference to you some other ways also. Probably, you have it anyhow.
                It is a ghastly report for our unstable electricity future by AEMO. Geoff S

                https://www.aemo.com.au/energy-systems/major-publications/renewable-integration-study-ris

                00

    • #
      RickWill

      Without effective social distancing the death toll in Australia would have been as bad as anywhere else once the virus had landed. Australia lacked the sophisticated tracking and border controls of Taiwan. The country had to do it the hard way with enforced lockdowns and labour intensive interviews and tracing to locate sources. The borders were clearly leaky and late with tight controls.

      The modelling generally has been a good predictor of outcomes. The good modelling was being adapted to the controls in place as they were implemented.

      The IHME forecast death toll for US got as low as 60k but is now rising again because they are losing control. Latest forecast is now 74k and I expect it will continue to climb as the virus works its way through the prisons.

      And chaos is getting closer:
      https://time.com/5827631/tyson-foods-meat-shortage/

      “As pork, beef and chicken plants are being forced to close, even for short periods of time, millions of pounds of meat will disappear from the supply chain,” John Tyson, Chairman of the Board of Tyson Foods, wrote in a letter published as an advertisement. “As a result, there will be limited supply of our products available in grocery stores until we are able to reopen our facilities that are currently closed.”

      Tyson Foods shuttered a large pork-processing plant in Iowa on April 22, after several workers tested positive for the coronavirus but it’s not the only company halting production at facilities. Other facilities that closed, at least temporarily, include a Smithfield Foods pork plant in South Dakota and a JBS beef plant in Colorado, according to the Associated Press.

      The initial panic buying stopped weeks ago but if the virus disrupts the supply chain then all that will start again and for rational reasons.

      71

  • #
  • #
    Bill In Oz

    My lady is a Filipina.
    So I get daily updates on the CCP Wuhan Covid disease
    From a Philippines perspective.
    The Philippines has a massive number of nurses, doctors and carers
    Working in overseas countries.
    OFW’s Overseas Filipino Workers are
    A major invisible export for the Philippines.
    The disease is having a huge impact on Philippines medical people.
    The dead are increasing both in the Philippines
    And in the UK and the USA.
    For Filipinos they are heroes.
    Here is a Youtube about some of those dead:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqYoLNNegFg

    73

  • #
    Robber

    Victorian Dept of Health continues with their scare campaign. Their daily media release indicates 1351 total cases, 17 deaths, 23 in hospital, recovered 1279.
    They do not specifically spell out the current number of active cases (just 55 – including 23 in hospital), nor where those cases are by local government area. With just 32 active cases out in the community it can’t be that hard to share the data. Given that they list cumulative number of cases in each of 70 local areas, more than half of the shires must now be virus free. (18 of them had only 1 or 2 cases).
    The hot spots have been the cities of STONNINGTON – 89; BANYULE – 83; MELBOURNE – 68; GREATER GEELONG – 63; BOROONDARA – 62; MORNINGTON PENINSULA (Shire) – 60; CASEY – 53; MORELAND – 51.
    “Victorians have done a remarkable job sticking to the coronavirus restrictions, and by staying home have saved lives.” (36,000 according to some of their modelling).
    “Our daily case numbers are still low which is encouraging. They prove that our physical distancing measures are working but this is not a time to relax our strong approach.”
    And finally: “Police have strong powers to enforce these directions and can issue on the spot fines.” Big brother is watching, and you must obey.

    91

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      And we have the antidote to Dangerous Dan and the failed Communist State of Victoriastan….

      Data, data and more data…..Not scare campaigns…..

      https://youtu.be/D5GDPCUUBEE

      “Enough is enough: E.R. Doctors with the stats, expertise and common sense say open up the economy

      “Dr. Dan Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi emphatically urged the opening up of the economy in a news conference in Bakersfield, California last week. They cited the statistics and the facts on the COVID-19 pandemic as well as how physicians have been pressured to inflate the numbers on the disease.

      “Both are experienced emergency room Doctors that have examined the numbers and reached the conclusion. Given the lower-than-expected mortality rate and secondary effects of the partial lock-down, it is time to end the partial lock-down and get everyone back to work.
      Citing the facts in ending the partial lock-down

      “As reported in The Bakersfield Californian, the doctors cited the statistics from the tests they’ve done at their Accelerated urgent care facilities that show the infection rate of COVID-19 is similar to the flu. Begging the question: if we don’t shut down the country for the flu, why are we doing that in this case?

      ““Using the same calculation, Erickson estimates 12 percent of the population statewide, or some 4.7 million Californians, have already had COVID-19. With about 1,400 deaths so far in California, that puts the statewide death rate at about .03 percent, he said.

      ““Does that (low death rate) necessitate sheltering in place? Does that necessitate shutting down medical systems? Does that necessitate being out of work?” Erickson asked.

      “Nationwide, about 42,000 people have died of coronavirus as of Wednesday. Between 30,000 and 60,000 die of flu annually, Erickson said, citing CDC data.”

      “The secondary effects of a partial lock-down

      “Once again we are seeing the citation of only half the story in a politically motivated issue, just as the left only cites gun deaths while ignoring defensive gun uses.

      ““If you’re going to dance on someone’s constitutional rights you better have a good reason, you better have a really good reason, not just a theory,” he said. “The data is showing us it’s time to lift (the stay-at-home orders) so if we don’t lift, what is the reason?”

      61

      • #
        Environment Skeptic

        Thanks OriginalSteve
        April 28, 2020 at 7:31 pm

        It is quite easy/especially easy to manipulate when fear is used. The stampeding herd whilst fearful and scared completely resists any new opinion/findings/data that goes against the direction, or change the direction of the stampeding herd…The herd immunity to new information/data/etc is proportional to the level of fear generated within the stampeding herd.

        These two doctors and many like them are being ignored and brushed aside, misrepresented, and so on at a time when new findings, like those talked about by the two brave doctors on the front line are as important to our collective survival as Oxygen.

        10

  • #
    Furiously curious

    It’s probably been mentioned here somewhere, but I just listened to an American blog, where one of the original HC doctors was interviewed, and explained how the cocktail worked. It’s not the HC that hits the virus, it’s the zinc that does something to something in the cell, that the virus needs to use, to replicate. But the zinc normally has no way of getting into a cell, and the HC somehow opens a door. And there is an antibiotic to deal with lung infection. So any testing of HC alone is fruitless, and is used mostly as politics, to damage Trump.

    120

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    In case any one misses this : A California professor
    Dr. David Sinclair
    Professes he is envious of how Australia has crushed the curve
    While California still suffers..
    And by way of illustration he put up a couple of photos
    One of Bondi in Sydney – empty last weekend
    And one of Newport beach in Orange County
    Just South of Los Angeles – completely chock full last weekend.

    I once stayed for a week at Newport Beach.
    It is certainly lovely.
    But not worth the risk of being a CCP Wuhan Covid 19 statistic.
    https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/bondinewport-sidebyside-comparison-not-flattering-for-californians/news-story/c666f964d3a6911362bc6dd7963704c1

    40

    • #
      toorightmate

      Bill,
      This just cant be true California is a died in the wool Democrat stronghold and all the people there are just so sensible, including the elite entertainers.

      00

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    In 2014 I lived some months in Buenos Aires in Argentina
    I still have friends in BA’s from that time.
    So I’ve been interested in how Argentina has coped with this CCP Wuhan virus.
    The World of Meters website has not up dated it’s stats for Argentina for a while.
    But this morning the BBC News online had a report that all internal & international flights
    Have bene suspended until September 1st.
    By comparison Australia suspended these flights back in March.

    I gather there has been significant pressure on the
    Argentine government not to suspend flights.
    But the continuing spread of the disease
    And the fact that travellers flying into Argentina
    And bringing the disease with them
    Lead to this decision.
    To be frank,
    This would have been better if it had been done 4-5 weeks ago.

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    Furiously curious

    Hey WCcycles, what’s happening with the upper jet streams. I’m pretty sure a week ago, at 30000m, on Ventusky, in the far Nth amd far Sth, they were merrily blasting away in an Easterly direction, while equatorialy they were streaming West. That’s been the norm for…….
    But now nothing is showing in the north, and the south is massive. Equatorial is puttering along.
    And the system we are about to get hit by, looks like it is from the surface to the top of the atmosphere?

    40

  • #
    RickWill

    As of Tuesday evening, 2.4M Aussies have downloaded and registered for the COVIDSafe app.

    My wife and I will need to replace our phones to use the app. I wonder how many other “oldies” will need to do that.

    10

    • #
      disorganise

      My mother in-law couldn’t register with her iPhone for some reason. Would help but, you know, can’t. screenies looked ok so no idea why it didn’t work.

      Father-in-law has a non-smart phone so no apps there.

      30

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        The APP requires work. On iPhones it requires Bluetooth to be on at all times, except that Apple wants Bluetooth off (except when chosen by the owner) for security purposes and to extend battery life.
        There is also (apparently) some sort of hitch with older Samsung (Google?) versions.

        And as I keep asking but getting no answer “what is the end date of this tracking?”

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  • #
    JanEarth

    How did Taiwan avoid a total lockdown and keep working through a Pandemic

    Below is a link to a list of 129 things that Taiwan did to avoid the lockdown that we had to do because we were so ill prepared. Please keep in mind the fact that Taiwan had been planning for this since the 2004 SARS epidemic so they had a command centre which was staffed by trained personnel that was able to work 24/7 to contain any epidemic. Because Taiwan keeps a close eye on the CCP’s social media they were able to pick up the talk amongst doctors in Wuhan and act early, starting on December the 31st 2019.

    Please read this. Please bring it to the attention of anyone you can, especially your local member of Parliament. We cannot get caught with our pants down again the economic damage will be irreparable if we do. We must plan now because another pandemic will happen.

    Here is the link :

    Save a copy because this link will expire in future.

    The above list was attached to this article

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  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Wither go thou, Victoriastan?

    Victoriastan needs legal Regieme Change.

    The communist states seem to love been harsh to thier people.

    https://www.breitbart.com/health/2020/04/26/caruzo-live-from-venezuela-the-socialist-coronavirus-experience/

    “For the past month, Nicolás Maduro’s regime has placed Venezuela under a fierce quarantine that – alongside the ongoing humanitarian crisis and an already destroyed economy – has severely exacerbated every woe and tribulation that we had been facing as a consequence of the utter collapse that Socialism has unleashed upon this country. Blackouts, barely functional public utilities, food shortages, and now even gasoline — the only thing we produce in this country is pretty much an odyssey to obtain.

    “Strangely, after almost an entire decade of socialist collapse, we’re kinda used to this rodeo of long lines, dwindling supplies, and the anxiety spawned from such circumstances, unfazed even — which is why I say that my daily loop hasn’t changed that much during this first month of “Social Quarantine.”

    “The first days following the announcement of the first confirmed case of coronavirus in Venezuela were filled with abject panic; crowds of customers flocking supermarkets and pharmacies desperate to get their hands on whatever supplies and groceries they could get and afford, just like in past times of heated protests.
    ………………..

    [SNIP]

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      It’s somewhat bizarre to read how Victoria is doing
      With this CCP virus
      Through the views of a USA based website
      With a very form ideological view of this pandemic
      Instead of a health & medical perspective.
      Better for me to call my son there in Melbourne
      Or read a local rag online
      Or even News.com

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    OriginalSteve

    Sorry…forgot to put the quotes in in above article – the text is from the article, its not my words.

    00

  • #
    Another Ian


    Ed
    April 28, 2020 at 2:08 am

    Still defending the position that not closing borders and screening travelers sooner would have made much difference. Is she aware that Nunavut closed its airports and is the one jurisdiction in Canada that has no Covid-19 cases?

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/theresa-tam-could-have-acted-sooner-1.5546819

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/04/28/april-28-2020-reader-tips/#comment-1311804

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    • #

      They better keep their airports closed forever. For if anyone with COVID19 ever visits later the whole exercise would have been pointless.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Another Ian;

      As they have an excess of polar bears they should station them at all border entry points. The loss of a few greenies convinced the Arctic is melting** is a small price to pay (and stops polar bears from starving).

      ** with the seemingly endless number of Greenies wanting to paddle/sail to the North Pole

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    OriginalSteve

    Um…so if all we want is the truth….what is the problem?

    Go ahead…make my day?

    https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6152226957001

    “China warns of economic hit over COVID inquiry
    27/04/2020|4min

    “Australia has been warned by the Chinese ambassador that it could face an economic hit if it does not back down from a push into the nation’s handling of the coronavirus.

    “Ambassador Cheng Jingye on Monday said the push was “dangerous” and could encourage Chinese citizens to not purchase Australian exports or travel to the nation.

    “The government however is not backing down from the call for an independent inquiry, with Foreign Minister Marise Payne criticising the threat of an economic hit due to the push.

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    • #
      David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

      Perhaps we should ban all export of baby food and dairy products to China to save the raids on our supermarkets?
      Cheers
      Dave B

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  • #

    The timing and extent of lockdown variations by nations created very interesting investing opportunities.

    I’m up 26% YTD. All my worker bees kept employment and a 10% bonus.

    This COVID19 thing sure produced the deadliest March and April we’ve seen in a while, but compared wih ANY month ANYWHERE, this thing is really no worse than the flu (within a binary order of magnitude).

    I was right from the start.

    The death count for my county of 950,000 people is 40. Average age: 76.
    People under 50: 3.

    It’s good to know all the fear/greed scams out there so you can stake a small claim on behalf of your clients.

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  • #
    Another Ian

    “NYC Hospital System ‘Quietly’ Testing Over-the-Counter Heartburn Drug Pepcid Against Coronavirus”

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/27/nyc-hospital-system-quietly-testing-over-the-counter-heartburn-drug-pepcid-against-coronavirus/

    50

  • #
    el gordo

    The flu season is apparently unavoidable.

    “The data showed that new viruses appeared in eastern and southeast Asia 6 to 9 months before they showed up anywhere else, and took another 6 to 9 months to reach Latin America,” says Russell. A new variant was as likely to turn up first in any of eight countries in eastern and southeast Asia, then give rise to other viruses in the region.

    This is not because flu circulates constantly in east Asia.

    “Flu comes and goes there too, just like here,” says co-author Derek Smith. But the team found that outbreaks follow the cooler temperatures of the rainy seasons, which are staggered in time across the region because of complex geography and air movements. “It’s like a baton is being handed over. There is always a flu epidemic happening somewhere in east and southeast Asia.”

    Then when the climatic conditions are right in the northern or southern temperate zones, “they strike a spark and seed the next winter epidemic.” That then goes to Europe, Oceania and North America first, probably because of frequent travel between those regions, says Smith, then finally gets to less-connected Latin America.

    Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13724-revealed-the-asian-source-of-the-annual-flu-epidemic/#ixzz6Ku0Bo9xo

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    • #
      TdeF

      That’s certainly the common opinion. But if we can test for this Wu Flu, we can test for the others. Why not? We protect the horses, the dogs, the cats, the pigs and the birds and the grapes and the apples. Why not the people? People who arrive sick at the airport should go into quarantine, as used to be the case.

      Why did we stop checking? What about the lives of Australians or are they less important than the hard currency tourists bring? This idea that the ‘economy’ is more important than lives is the start of a slippery slope. What has surprised most governments is that the people do not agree. Lives are more important than cash. And the last pandemic to hit Australia k*lled mainly men between 20 and 50 and 3x as many men as women. So whose lives matter?

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      • #
        toorightmate

        We are too busy checking people at airports for nail clippers and nail files (courtesy of 9/11).
        We can’t be bothered about apples and birds any more. The are nowhere near as dangerous as nail clippers.

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  • #
    TdeF

    An awful opinion piece in the Australian, arguing that the US we should copy Sweden. Wall Street Journal. Sure, 2500 deaths so far but in deaths per million, better than New York? What sort of argument is that? Divide by a large number and pretend those people do not matter?

    And the Swedish ambassador to the US says they should reach the fabled herd immunity in three weeks, and presumably with only 7,000 dead. As a proportion that’s fine. As long as the people who survive are fully employed and who cares about old people anyway? Zero compassion.

    At present Sweden has 19,000 reported cases and doubling every 15 days, 40,000 cases in three weeks. Population 10 million. 0.4%.
    How is that 60-80% of the population and herd immunity, assuming that the virus does not mutate and that you cannot get infected twice? They are only out 20:1. So whoever is driving this is gambling that for every reported case, there are 20 infections which are asymptomatic and unreported.

    Good luck with that. I would hate to be the person driving this because it looks like mass m*rder. Why?

    Australia has shown you can lose only 88 people in a country with 2.5x the population. As Donald Trump says, one life is too many. I would like to think Australians agree with him.

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      I forecast that this will lead to a massive legal cat fight in Sweden.
      As relatives wake up to the bleeding obvious fact that family members have been killed
      As direct result of this inept government policy.

      And I would, not like to be a pollie in Sweden when this comes to an election.

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    • #
      Meglort

      And all of that hypothesising on herd immunity that quite possibly even likely looking at some analysis of persistent antibodies in recovered covids is zero.

      Coronavirii are studied and used as a delivery platform for immunisation precisely because the immune system does not generally bother too much of them.

      One theory suggests we have simply become desensitised to them over eons of exposure (especially automimmune disfunctions being selected out via death).

      This is why quite possibly, vaccines for them are like rocking horse scat too.

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    • #
      yarpos

      Swedens overall mortality is in line with the better countries in Europe. People die , its part of living. We like to talk as if the practical alternative everywhere is zero and that solutions are transportable and workable between dissimilar countries and seasosns.

      Latvia is another example of a country taking a sensible middle road, not destroying its economy and having outcomes similar to draconian conutries.

      Intersting looking at the UK figures. UK(England) has much worse numbers than UK(Scotland or Wales) when you break it down.

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  • #
    toorightmate

    No Logies this year.
    First time for 62 years.
    ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

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  • #
    RicDre

    Update from Peter Ridd, 4/27/2020:

    Dear All,
    Apologies if you have already received this message due to our previous donation to the old fund.

    I’ve been meaning to update everybody for some time, but with much bigger problems in the world at the moment, my legal proceedings seem too trivial to bother people about.

    Nevertheless, despite the virus causing major disruptions in the courts, it is looking like the appeal will be held on 26th and 27th of May via a video link. JCU has filed their grounds for appeal, and we have filed our response. We await JCU’s updated paperwork on May 12th. It could be a few months after the hearing before we hear the result.

    It is going to be a battle between two of the most eminent lawyers in Australia who have both been involved with recent high-profile cases. We are represented by Stuart Wood QC who successfully defended Israel Folau after he was dismissed by Rugby Australia late last year. JCU is represented by Bret Walker SC, who successfully represented Cardinal George Pell in his appeal to the High Court.

    On a related matter, you may recall that I was fired after saying that JCU’s coral reef centre had insufficient Quality Assurance protocols to be able to trust their results. Earlier this year a group of 7 international scientists, checked 8 important reports done by the coral reef centre and found them all to be completely wrong. This completely vindicates my concerns about the quality of work coming from that centre which got me in trouble. Most of those reports were co-authored by the three PhD supervisors of Oona Lonnstedt, a student at JCU, who was later found to have committed scientific fraud in Sweden. There are questions whether her work at JCU was also fraudulent. JCU have been promising for over 2 years to investigate, most recently promising to release a report in February after the 7 scientists revealed the replication failure by her supervisors. Unsurprisingly JCU has not released the report.

    The fact that JCU has been so slow to investigate possible scientific fraud is a far worse crime than any fraud that may have been committed in the first place. It represents an institutional failing.
    See

    http://joannenova.com.au/…/busted-reef-fish-arent-bothered…/
    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/…/ex-judge-investigate…

    Thanks again for the support.

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  • #
    Richard Ilfeld

    It’s not completely clear what course the virus is taking, but it is clear we have hived into our
    normal political divides, thus whatever science there may have been in public policy is lost on the wind.
    Thus it is incumbent to watch closely as we move to virus abuse: how to use virus panic to get what you want by scaring the
    beejesus out of the folks and slipping your normal crapola into an “anti-virus” bill.

    One example may suffice: the left in the US want to legislate ‘vote by mail’. There is a shallow surface logic to this until one realizes
    that every single state already offers voters the opportunity to vote by mail through an absentee ballot.

    Hmmmm.

    Absentee ballots require registration with identification and signature match to validate the ballot.
    “Vote by Mail” schemes have….uh….different rules, as in no rules.

    There is a whole pack of wolves in this sheep haberdasery. Be alert; climate warriors, green BS will soon join the stealth brigade.

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  • #
    Slithers

    The Fatal flaws in the attempts at achieving Herd Immunity as practiced in Sweden and elsewhere!

    Firstly the mistaken premise that a small infection level will deliver a less violent disease. Yes there is some evidence that the initial viral load gives the infected persons auto-immune system longer to mount an effective defense, but that presupposes the infected person has a ‘perfect’ immune system and is not Vitamin D3 deficient or has other causes that render the person immune-deficient. Therefore people in this category will probably experience the worst effects and some will die.

    Secondly while still exposed to infectious people there will be many opportunities for further infection as the first symptoms that you have been infected takes 3 to 4 days to manifest, so that is 3 to 4 days of continued exposure so the chance of minimal viral load leading to less severe disease is totally negated.

    Thirdly there is significant chance of getting a slightly different strain of the virus with unknown effects upon the auto-immune systems defense. The attempts of combatting the initial infection may not work against a second or multiple strains with slightly different characteristics that confuse the already challenged immune system.

    In conclusion ‘Herd Immunity’ is a baseless fantasy that is doomed to failure at the cost of many lives and the high risk of permanent damage to the survivors.

    30

  • #
    Slithers

    Did you see this?
    https://9now.nine.com.au/today/coronavirus-vaccine-could-be-available-as-soon-as-christmas/12c77623-62dc-4051-ad4c-b50c573db8c6

    Vague answer about Chinese scientist involvement and no dates as to when those two were in Gelong working on bat viruses.

    00

  • #

    Check this out

    “A new Michael Moore-produced documentary that takes aim at the supposed hypocrisy of the green movement is “dangerous, misleading and destructive” and should be removed from public viewing, according to an assortment of climate scientists and environmental campaigners”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/28/climate-dangerous-documentary-planet-of-the-humans-michael-moore-taken-down

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    • #
      RicDre

      “…and should be removed from public viewing, according to an assortment of climate scientists and environmental campaigners””

      Not a surprise, censorship is always their go-to solution for something they disagree with.

      30

    • #
      RicDre

      “…an assortment of climate scientists and environmental campaigners…”

      If these “climate scientists” where actually scientists, they wouldn’t be trying to suppress debate. This tells me that none of them are scientists but rather they are all environmental campaigners.

      30

    • #
      Chad

      Moore and his directiors, have responded to his critics in an interview on US TV.
      https://youtu.be/Bop8x24G_o0
      ..they clarify their position as Environmentalist and believers in Climate Change (AGw) , but also confirm their belief in the wasted time and resources being put into Wind, Solar and Bio energy sources.
      Unfortunately Moore shines through as a misguided fool who believes the covid19 outbreak is a sign from nature that shows how we can live without much of the extravagant lifestyle we have developed.
      He seems to think its possible we can continue to live happily like this indefinitely !

      30

    • #
      Todd

      Hopefully we get a great example of the Streisand effect, where the more people try to censor, the more people want to watch.

      00

  • #
    cedarhill

    Reuters is highlighting an issue that is a common blog topic in the US – hospitals are not being overwhelmed and have been laying off staff thus the move by many States to reopen various medical procedures:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-screenings-exc/exclusive-u-s-medical-testing-cancer-screenings-plunge-during-coronavirus-outbreak-data-firm-analysis-idUSKCN22A0DY

    Given how CV-19 cases are reported (deaths counted as CV-19 only on suspicions of a person having CV-19 at death), the “excess deaths” due to lack of care will likely be counted as CV-19 deaths. This will be an amazing moment in US health care where all the killers (cancer, heart disease, etc.) will trend sharply down. At least until CV-19 has run it’s course. Maybe that’s why, after 100+ years after the 1918 flu we still don’t know much about the numbers nor it’s pathways.

    30

  • #
    el gordo

    UFO footage released for public consumption.

    “The thing that stood out to me the most was how erratic it was behaving,” he told New York magazine. “Its changes in altitude, air speed, and aspect were just unlike things that I’ve ever encountered before flying against other air targets.”

    ‘At one point, the object appeared to dart from a high altitude of about 60,000 feet to a low altitude of 50 feet “within seconds,” according to the DOD report. At another point, it veered violently to the left.’

    Business Insider

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    Robber

    At WattClarity by Paul McArdle: Two papers released by COAG Energy Council are early stages in fleshing out ‘NEM 2.0’
    ‘Moving to a two-sided market’. The COAG Energy Council are asking for submissions by Monday 18th May 2020.
    Creating a two-sided energy market will finally unlock data on consumer energy demand that is hidden ‘behind the meter’ and which is needed to help keep the power system reliable and secure. When prices are high, they can conserve their own use and supply electricity to the market and when prices are low, they can increase their use. Because this behaviour will be transparent and in real-time the information itself becomes a tool to keep the power system operating securely and reliably and can fill gaps when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing.”
    ‘System Services and Ahead Markets’. COAG will be holding public consultations later in the year.
    The paper considers incorporating an ‘ahead market’ into the broader national electricity market, that would mean traders buy and sell both supply and demand ahead of the real-time market and would give the market – and the Australian Energy Market Operator – greater visibility of what is needed and the time to plan accordingly. It also looks at the best ways to value essential services such as voltage and primary frequency control, system strength and inertia response to ensure they are available when needed most.

    At first glance, while security and reliability are discussed, not sure there is much focus on delivering low cost electricity to the consumer.

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      Graeme No.3

      Robber:

      I have this weird idea about filling “gaps when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing”.
      Eliminate those gaps. Either by making those operators supply consistently or not at all.

      With natural gas so cheap, and in over supply (they go together) we may as well burn gas to generate electricity. A few new gas-fired plants (as in planning) would stabilise the grid. Switch the coal use (in years to come) to supplying petrol, diesel and chemicals, which would save the cost of imports.

      10

  • #
    Slithers

    Interesting to note that Shi Zhengli, the deposed leader of the Wuhan Virology Lab was one of the two scientists in Geelong in 2006! investigatine bat viruses!
    Published today in the Daily Telegraph.

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    Slithers

    Interesting to note that SARS_CoV2 which has a key to ACE2 receptor enzyme which forms the outer lining of many organs in humans thereby gaining control of the connected tissue, (the means by which it replicates in the lungs), is of course able to latch on to any ACE2 Enzyme, like the trillions that form part of the lining of blood vessels, liver, colon and other organs.
    Why did the wonderful WHO not warn the worlds medical experts that this take-over of cell lining could cause multiple problems not associated with the COVID-19 that is so damaging to human raspatory systems? And it has taken FOUR months for the dots to be joined….

    Your Brain linings are covered in ACE2 Enzyme receptors!

    THIS VIRUS MUST BE eliminated!!!!

    20

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    Environment Skeptic

    From: https://realclimatescience.com/2020/04/george-carlin-the-prophet/

    “George Carlin The Prophet
    “Posted on April 29, 2020 by tonyheller

    George Carlin explained the Coronapanic epidemic, decades ago.”

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    Another Ian


    PaulHarveyPage2
    April 29, 2020 at 12:59 am

    GAME CHANGER
    In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead – https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/world/europe/coronavirus-vaccine-update-oxford.html

    “Jenner Institute had a head start on a vaccine, having proved in previous trials that similar inoculations — including one last year against an earlier coronavirus — were harmless to humans. (It) enabled them to leap ahead and schedule tests of their new coronavirus vaccine involving more than 6,000 people by the end of next month.”

    “…with an emergency approval from regulators, the first few million doses of their VACCINE COULD BE AVAILABLE BY SEPTEMBER …— if it proves to be effective”. But there’s more…

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/04/29/april-29-2020-reader-tips/#comment-1312168

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    cedarhill

    I’m not familiar with this side at all but this article has lots of links to sites that seem to be good references regarding numbers, etc,:

    https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

    Nor have I translated any of the non-English links.

    00

  • #
    Orson

    Should we speed up Covid19 vaccine development by going directly to Human Challenge Trials? Direct viral exposure after experimental vaccine inoculation? At least, given the enormous benefits and the lower known risks to those under 30 years old, shouldn’t we be discussing this?

    Tyler Cowan at marginalrevolution.com has an anonymous commenter frame the debate, and then replies with his own comment.

    From an anonymous reader:

    As you are of course aware, testing on vaccines for Covid-19 are beginning to be undertaken. The scientific community has seemingly decided that Human Challenge Trials (HCT) where test subjects are directly exposed to the virus following vaccination are unethical, instead using the typical protocol of vaccine/placebo inoculation followed by months of observation in order to observe effectiveness. This seems to me a grave moral error based on the following argument.

    1) There exists a large cohort of young, healthy, fully informed, willing participants who would undergo HCT.

    2) Given the mortality profile of this disease, these participants would be undertaking an exceptionally small mortality risk (perhaps 5-10 per 100k, based on data from Spain/Italy/NYC, assuming zero vaccine effectiveness).

    3) Society deems acceptable other activities with much higher fatality risk (at least 5-10x) in both professional (soldiers, logging workers) and recreational (motorcycling, mountaineering) capacities.

    4) HCT would speed up the vaccine testing process by many months, saving tens of thousands of lives and avoiding enormous economic damage.

    5) HCT actually poses significantly less risk to participants in terms of allergic reaction or ADE risk compared to a standard testing protocol since the number of participants could be much smaller and they would be medically observed.

    I fail to find any ethical justification for the current stance of the medical community, from either a utilitarian or deontological perspective, and believe a highly consequential error is being made. This error may be based on false analogies to past unethical testing practices in history where participants were not informed or willing and danger was significant. The current case bears no ethical resemblance, in my judgement, to these past cases.

    ===========================
    The simplest model of such errors is that many members of the biomedical establishment do not wish to have bad feelings about any “sins of commission” and to see their status lowered as a result of “dirty hands,” and the readily criticized logistics of Human Challenge Trials. Since HCTs do not “feel right” to them, they self-deceive into associating that feeling with a concern for the greater public good.

    You should not be surprised to see grave moral errors committed in a crisis, however. Our “mainstream” protection against grave moral errors, in normal circumstances, simply is that usually we are not given the opportunity to commit them.

    I do understand that a Human Challenge Trial does not necessarily suffice to show that a given vaccine is safe. Nonetheless it should be in the “armor of our discourse,” so to speak, as a morally acceptable alternative. So if you are a biomedical professional, or a public intellectual, I hope you will speak up

    https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/04/human-challenge-trials-for-vaccines.html

    There is further debate at the link. And two heavy hitting pundits have approached this topic, and Tyler links to them in the original post.

    Personally, I believe Tyler is correct. However, let it be said that utilitarian cost-benefit arguments are my preference because they are instrumentally effective: they get thing done at least cost and max benefit. Which is precisely why they ought to happen now. But won’t.

    Finally, let me add that I see few downsides that can’t be mitigated (eg, a fund to compensate the injured or dead). Does anyone disagree?

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    nb

    This is where sentiment is heading. And it is true. Fentanyl, now a virus:

    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/04/china_committed_an_act_of_war.html

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    el gordo

    Its invisible and out of control.

    ‘Australia’s electricity grid operator wants the power to remotely switch off or constrain the output of new rooftop solar systems, as it finds ways to manage South Australia’s world-leading levels of “invisible and uncontrolled” solar output.’ ABC

    10

  • #
    el gordo

    Steady as you go mister.

    ‘Housing sales plunged in April as nervous buyers and sellers waited out the coronavirus storm, but that didn’t stop a modest rise in prices in most capitals.’ Oz

    00