Sorry if it seems like I’m hogging these Unthreaded Posts by getting in early with long Comments, but I have this faint idea that people actually would like some information to balance some of the propaganda that is out there.
The talk of getting rid of the RET is still bubbling, and one aspect is killing off the subsidies.
So, let’s look at a real subsidy then, and a pretty big one at that, the subsidy in the rooftop solar power area. There are currently 1.2 Million rooftop solar installations, and the total Nameplate for all that is around 3200MW, and note here the huge numbers, something those who favour this like to proudly point at, when I can show that it isn’t really all that much. So with that Nameplate and the number of units, the average installation is 2.67KW.
Look at the chart at this link. (scroll down a little) Note the column detailing Solar Credits. That’s the subsidy given for each installation. The credits for the average 2.7KW unit is around $2200.
So, with 1.2 million installations, then those credits total up to $2.64 Billion. Now, the costs for those rooftop systems have come down over time, so that direct subsidy is probably up beyond $3 Billion.
That’s a direct subsidy, paid for by every taxpayer.
So then, 3200MW in total Nameplate. Huge number there eh!
The Capacity Factor (CF) for rooftop solar is 13%, and here I’m using the upper end of the scale, because in lower latitudes, it’s actually as low as 9%, but hey, I can use their own larger figures. Some people have even mentioned that my use of CF is a strawman argument, but hey, it’s the industry standard for power delivered across a full year, 24/7/365, and here, as I have said so many times, it’s not the Nameplate, but actual power being generated for consumption that is the most important thing here.
So, in effect, at that CF of 13%, then that’s the equivalent power delivery for a Nameplate of 416MW, averaged across that full year.
Now, while all of that power is being consumed, either by the residence itself, or being fed back to the grid, most of the power is being consumed by the actual residence which has the rooftop installation, and basically, that would be around 75% of that power being generated. So, across a full year, the amount being fed back to the grid comes in at around 104MW.
So, going back to the direct subsidy of that $3 Billion, that effectively means that is the cost for a 104MW power plant. (Wow! How cost effective is that then?)
Then there’s the FIT, although not a direct subsidy, it is still a subsidy. Some FIT’s being paid are as high as 44 cents per KWH, and on top of that, retailers are then adding a bonus of 3 cents per KWH on top of that, so some people are getting 47 cents per KWH for the power they feed back to the grid. It’s not free money, as all retailers recover all of that FIT by increasing the cost of power to ALL consumers. So, in effect, that FIT is a subsidy being paid by individual consumers, all of them, not just those in the Residential sector, but in the Commerce and Industry sectors as well, so all electrical power has a cost increase attached to it because of this FIT. That 47 cents per KWH equates to $470/MWH that the retailers have to pay for rooftop power being generated and returned to the grid. Compare that to the current cost for coal fired power which is now down around $20/MWH. Even if that FIT is lowered to the mooted 8 cents per KWH and with the added 3 cents from the retailers, that’s still $110/MWH, still more than five times the cost of coal fired power.
So then, that 104MW total Nameplate for actual power delivery back to the grid for an averaged year round supply. That $3 Billion power plant is not one plant at one location supplying a stable grid, easy to manage the one plant to be in perfect unison with the grid, it is now 1.2 MILLION tiny little plants spread across the grids everywhere, and how difficult is it to now manage 1.2 million added power plants, all tiny, all hopefully operating at absolute perfection with the grid they are supplying.
So now, can you see why that loose term, poles and wires, is being used as a large driver of increased costs. Poles and wires is the euphemism for the infrastructure required to maintain a perfection of supply to everyone, an exact 240 Volts at an exact 50Hz. Now, instead of a few plants sending the power downstream (for want of a better explanation) we now have an added 1.2 million of them to try and control, all of them supplying tiny amounts of power here and there across all the grids, no easy task to control all that, hence an immense addition to the infrastructure needed to actually control that, the poles and wires.
So here, you can see how rooftop solar has added considerably to the costs for that misleading term, poles and wires.
Back to that original subsidy of the $3 Billion then. Now when the installation goes up onto the roof, the installer charges the home owner the lower price, and the installing company then claims back the credits from the Government. Now, even I’m not so gullible to believe that each and every installing company is as pure as the driven snow, by not bumping up the cost ever so slightly, and then still claiming the full rebate. Why am I reminded here of Pink Batts?
Now perhaps you can see why you occasionally get cold calls from rooftop panel installers.
Subsidies are direct, they are indirect, and there are also hidden costs as well. (poles and wires)
All of this adds to the cost of electricity for everyone.
Keep in mind here that this is just for rooftop solar power, just one of many subsidies in the RET scheme.
Even if it is canned, we’ll still all be paying for it for a long time into the future.
A couple of points AS60038 specifies Australia’s nominal voltage as 230V +10% / -6% since 2000 – it’s no longer 240V even though 240V is allowable being 230 +6%.
Secondly your capacity factor isn’t an appropriate way to quantify Solar power because it fails to account for the reliability of the source. A better way is to use a baseload equivalent, the amount of baseload generating capacity that can be completely and permanently eliminated by solar. That is what is the maximum power that a solar system with storage can be relied upon to contribute 24 x 7 x 52. Essentially this is the shaded capacity of the panel which is about 20% of the end of life efficiency of the cell divided by hours in a day. For a 200 Watt panel and taking account of inversion, matching, and Copper Losses, that’s only a reliable (baseload equivalent) output of about 7 watts. Put another way, for every 200 Watt panel installed only 7 watts of coal could be switched off, mostly because cloudy days don’t provide much power, we still of course need to generate the same power on cloudy days. This of course only applies if 24 hours of storage was provided for solar power.
Expressed as a capacity factor (let’s call it the reliable capacity factor) that’s a miserable 3.5%.
Remember the aim is to replace coal with solar, not to suppliment it. Your use of capacity factor (a long term average) is only correct for a supplimentation role. It does not work for a replacement role which requires using the minimum short term average capacity. Your analysis therefore overstates the usefulness of Solar by about 4 times.
Oh dear. First TonyfromOz kicks the solar puppies and then bobl heads for the river with a burlap sack full of solar kittens and a large rock. Why can’t you guys just toe the Green / liberal / Progressive line and go back to living in caves and eating grass and slugs? The fruits of your labor belong to the elites and you should not have to be constantly “nudged” into compliance. You know you can’t be trusted to make all those difficult decisions. You know only those in the enlightened oligarchy can balance your selfish needs against the torture of our planet.
The politicos, bureaucrats, academics and power brokers will decide what modern comforts you are allowed to embrace. You know in your heart you are not smart enough to decide those things for yourselves. Our betters in the eco-aristocracy know the terrible havoc modern technology has on dear Mother Earth. They cry and gnash their capped teeth every time they’re forced to take those private jet flights (due to schedule conflicts.) They anguish over those lavish “fundraising” parties serving imported caviar, champagne and exotic fruits organically grown by indigenous persons using stone age sustainable methods. They feel entitled to those percs those “evil” rich people wouldn’t show up if they didn’t offer those luxuries. They must work with the rich and famous in order to get their message out. Those opulent government offices and multimillion dollar estates are burdens they must endure as hypocritical leeches ambassadors for the cause.
Once they return us to feudalism save Earth, mankind will return to live in medieval squalor the simple lifestyle meant for us. Even though they would prefer they and their families live simply as well, they will continue to sacrifice their happiness by taking on the burden of being our kings and queens, lords and ladies as that’s the only way to protect Nature from humanity.
Where’s your trust? You know they wouldn’t tell you that solar power will save the planet if it wasn’t true, would they?
</sarc>
What surprises me is that no one has mentioned this next little, umm, problem, before now.
Look at that link and see how many panels make up the average 2.6KW installation. That’s 11 panels. (on average)
So, with 1.2 million installations, here we have 13.2 million individual panels.
What’s going to happen starting five years from now, because some have been in for a while already, and for the next 25 years plus after that as all these panels reach their end of life.
That’s 13.2 million existing panels needing to be disposed of, plus the many more still going on roofs with more to come as well, until this fad wears off.
It’s not like they’re entirely safe either, or bio degradable.
That also will not be an altruistic thing, either, as disposal costs could be quite high, another cost down to the home owner.
I wonder if that gets a mention in the fine print at first flush of installation.
Oh that’s easy, they make great photoframes with a little tarting up, and they are easilly adapted to become solar vege driers, to make our sundried tomatoes, at my place they may even do duty as a skylight, a glass top table or cabinet, a small greenhouse or even wimdows. I might even turn two of my first failures into a solar water heater. An aluminium frame with a tough piece of glass at the front has plenty of uses.
… except when the wife says “why are you keeping all that old stuff that doesn’t work anymore” and nags you to throw the good stuff away before you get around to using it.
You put in a heroic effort on this. Your archives full of this kind of data must be a national treasure by now. It’s tragic that the real problem with renewable energy isn’t recognized except by dedicated guys like you. I hope someday the truth sinks in, not only in Oz but around the world.
But I’m left wondering when you have time to sleep. Or do you? 😉
(This is Part 2 of the earlier Comment, and basically about the same subject, but to differentiate on from the other, I’ve made this a separate Comment.)
Look, I know I harp on about this, but if the real picture isn’t told, then people will just believe what is written about it, that rooftop solar power is making some sort of impact. It may be, but that impact is only tiny, and at what cost. (both in reality and also in dollar terms)
All these installations supply the homes they are fitted to, and they also supply small amounts of power back to the grids, but that’s spread across all of Australia, so it’s virtually just minute amounts of power really, so let me show you that.
The average yearly power being consumed across Australia is 235TWH.
Rooftop solar has a Nameplate of 3200MW, and at a (an actual, not claimed) Capacity Factor of 13%, then the total power delivered by all these rooftop installations is 3.65TWH, consumed by the homes with them, and also fed back to the grid. That’s only 1.55% of all Australian power generation. Because most of that total is being consumed by the homes, only a very small part of it is being fed back to the grids, and because that is spread across all Australia, then it will have virtually no impact on whether or not smaller power plants are being called upon to top up the grid to actually cover the consumption.
It has NO impact at all on coal fired power generation, and I can’t stress that enough ….. NO IMPACT on coal fired power. Because nearly all of the coal fired units are larger than 250MW, and Bayswater units alone are 660MW, then just because there is tiny amounts of rooftop power coming on to the grid, they will not shut down any of those coal fired units, so the only impact, if there is any at all will be that grid controllers may not call onto line perhaps one smaller unit to top up the grid. The power is needed in specific areas, so smaller units are called onto line to cover the demand in that area, while that rooftop solar power is spread across all Australia. See the point here.
That covers power delivery, so now look at the cost. I mentioned in the earlier Comment that the subsidy alone is around $3 Billion, but what of the total cost. This is, in effect a crowd funded power plant, and while it has a Nameplate of that 3200MW, in actuality, it’s just a 420MW plant at that 13% CF.
So then, look again at the chart at the link in that first comment, and the cost for the (average) 2.6KW system is around $7350. (the Typical Installed Price column) So, if there are 1.2 Million installations, then the total cost comes in at $8.82 Billion. Costs have come down (pretty dramatically over the years) so that real price could be higher than $10 to $12 Billion, but even at the current price of $8.8 Billion, that’s horrendously expensive for what is only in effect a 412MW Power plant. Now while I mentioned it’s a crowd funded power plant, or 1.2 million of them anyway, that cost is being paid for by every electricity consumer, via the FIT, which has to be attractive enough to make people want to buy them in the first place, so they are being paid for by electricity consumers, and the cost of electricity is being bumped up to cover that cost, to pay those installations off.
Electricity prices have risen by quite large amounts in recent years, so let’s apply some perspective here. All those coal fired plants have now been in place for many decades. They still supply similar amounts of power that they did when they were new, so there’s been no change in what they deliver, and how they deliver it. The price of electricity has only risen since all these renewables started to come into vogue. Think about that for a minute. If there’s been virtually no change in coal fired power then it only stands to reason that renewables have caused this price rise, in more ways than one.
And lastly, for some perspective, the total power delivered by 1.2 million rooftop solar installations across a whole year is delivered by Bayswater in 76 days.
Also solar panels can only supply useable power for just 6 hours a day! Where is the power coming from for the other 18 hours? And then there needs to be clear skies during that 6 hours. There are now over 100,000 solar panels installed on farms around Pembrokeshire, South West Wales, and sunshine levels are currently very low due to all the crap in the air. It looks like the smog I used to see in London years ago. Blowed if I know where it’s coming from. Maybe the Iceland volcano? Doubt they will ever tell us. By the way, we are under a high pressure system and none of the wind turbines are turning. 🙂
The price of electricity has only risen since all these renewables started to come into vogue. Think about that for a minute. If there’s been virtually no change in coal fired power then it only stands to reason that renewables have caused this price rise, in more ways than one.
From the parliamentary library{
“Extent of price increases
In real terms—that is, taking into account the general increase in prices across all goods and services—prices for households increased on average by 72% for electricity and 54% for gas in the 10 years to June 2013.
Real electricity price increases for manufacturing businesses over the same period have been of a similar magnitude (60%). For gas, prices for manufacturing businesses have risen to a lesser extent (29%) (Figure 1).
The increase in real prices after June 2012 of around 14% for household electricity and 13% for household gas is associated with the implementation of a carbon price from July 2013.
The pattern of price increases over the 10 years to June 2013 has differed across states and territories. In real terms, the rate of increase for electricity has been 30% in Perth, 41% in Adelaide, 73% in Brisbane and 107% in Sydney. For those cities connected to natural gas networks, household gas price increases over the 10 years to June 2013 have ranged from 40% in Sydney to 78% in Perth.”
You forgot to mention the individual State based Socialist induced habit of selling off utilities to cook the books for each successive election.
Now poles and wires, and retailers are privatised with their profits going into dividends for share holders while the infrastructure ie new poles and wires, is paid for by price increases to the consumer instead of the profits that the consumer provides in the first place – double whammy to the consumer.
Don’t try to fudge the figures it’s in black and white in the IPART pricing recommendations since Labor started selling off the furniture .- have a look it was in all the papers.
And that’s in the last ten years in NSW alone.
On top of that in 2010 the Labor government locked in the 60 cents per kw payment to solar households with it’s solar panel deal.
Prior to that householders paid 18 cents per kw that’s now risen to 34 cents per kw in 4 years. And not to mention the extravagant Labor purchase subsidies of around $7,000 per solar household (conservatively based on Tony from Oz 11 panels per solar home)to get them into the scheme in the first place – say that’s about 8.4 billion dollars just for that.
It all exists on grants and subsidiesa from the tax payer and all calculated to be embraced by a poulation driven by fear of global warming, designed to artificially drive up the cost of coal fired energy and thereby make it appear that solar energy is not an inefficient and expensive substitute.
The fact is that inefficient and expensive inventions don’t surviuve and solar and wind will go the way of the electric car once the tax payer stops funding them.
Same thing happened when the Cold War ended and the major industries that were funded by fear folded or diversified to survive.
Just like the United Nations did from Fear of Nuclear Conflict to Fear of Climate Change.
Just how do you think the all inkblotters and sucubus (sucubus is plural for sucubus plural cos it’s a greek word)kept their well paid jobs in the UN once the Cold War ended and it wasn’t needed anymore…. there was the War Against the Hole in the Ozone Layer (still there by the way and causing no great discomfort) then Sea Level Rise… then Global Warming… then Climate Change… and a new enemy CO2 and the Army of Climate Deniers who must be killed or the Earth will die…
For f#ck sake, Silly Filly, give me a break, this is sme really f#cked up sh#t right there.
You are just another dupe.
ps. the pen-name you selected really is a Freudian thing – you do know that don’t you.
Tony, I think you are right with your numbers about the very tiny amount of power being fed back into the grid by the rooftop solar but having said that, I am wondering how the FIT for this miniscule amount (~0.4% of total demand) can possibly have much affect on the average price of electricity. I don’t know how many installations get the 44 cents you mention as that went a long while back. Most now I think, get somewhere around the 6 to 8 cent mark and that was a (fair) price based on a ‘cost avoided’ model commissioned by the QCA in your State. So in reality the average FIT for the installed base would be a lot less than 44 cents. Do you have those figures to work from also?
As you point out, this tiny solar base has no affect on the coal fired generation but it does cut into the lucrative peaking market substantially (early afternoon)and this is where the spot prices are highest so its not competing with the 2 cent coal fired and we often pay a lot more than 2 cents for the peak gas fired (which BTW had its own subsidy scheme to mandate a 15% market share I think it was in Qld.) The retailers in your State don’t actually pay anything for the FIT as you suggested. The way it works (or doesn’t work) in Qld is that the Network folk fork out for the FIT and that gets ‘passed through’ (supposedly no cream on top of that) to the end users via the retailer. Your Gov is looking to make the retailers pay any FIT cost just like they pay wholesale costs to the main suppliers.
Yes the Gov did mandate this whole RET thing but the credits are not paid directly from the Gov by the taxpayers as you describe – it is more indirect. Mostly the installers pay the customer for the credits (hence the ‘discounted price’) and then the installers are free to trade those credits however they wish. Credits for the panels were only available for the first 1.5kW (nameplate)of any installation and the price varied depending on the site (available insolation or effectively CF) The credits were initially ‘valued’ at something like $50 which fell to $40 but the official clearing house for these got a huge stockpile quite quickly and the ‘on-the-street’ price for them now is about $26 or less. I think they still use the $40 figure tho when calculating the ‘cost’ of the RET on electricity pricing which is a little unrealistic. Solar hot water heaters were eligible for earning RETs as well and have exactly the same affect on electricity pricing but we don’t seem to get too concerned about that. (I think that they actually have a more complex effect on the price as solar hot water heaters mean less night off peak load for the coal stations)Do you know the figures for the installed base of hot water heaters?
I can’t see too how this tiny 104MW feed across the whole Australia wide network puts a significant demand and cost on the poles and wires. That is probably a bit of a furphy. One of the later reports I read stated that the average household air conditioner equated to a ‘subsidy’ of $350 pa. while the average solar electric install ranged between $0 to $120 pa. (interestingly based on whether it faced West or North with the West facing providing more bias to the late afternoon). That is definitely a ‘poles and wires’ issue.
As you point out that most of the solar gets used by the owner then isn’t the cost of power generated more aptly compared with the retail cost that the owner is avoiding rather than the wholesale cost of coal fired generation? So at about $1 per nameplate Watt (no subsidies just cheap Chinese panels and inverter)making about 1.1kWh pa the owner might save about 27 cents or so per Watt over the year So after 4 years the owner then has some ‘cheap’ electricity. The motivation (even without RETs and FITs) would seem to be similar to having a solar hot water heater and just provides some incremental saving to the owner.
I think that with better load management (smart metering etc) we could definitely have a market and tariff for intermittent power which one would expect to pay less for. I think electric vehicles (essentially coal fired vehicles)and their batteries could in time be an ideal dial-in load, not just to soak up intermittent supplies but provide a significant and controllable off peak load for the coal stations. Why use imported oil when we could power our (imported?) cars with local coal fired electricity? When you think about it, all of our power sources are ‘intermittent’ in a way and we make them usable with suitable ‘smoothing’ or matching the load to them. A diesel generator only generates power 25% of the time (ie a 4 stroke cycle) but we manage to ‘smooth’ that out with the invention of a flywheel. Even your often praised grid electricity fluctuates wildly 50 times per second but we still manage to use that and are happy to pay for it. It is just a matter of time before we start to get better and more inventive at smoothing over the longer intervals. At least the ‘smooth’ dc grid supply never won out over the ac despite the electrocuted elephants.
cheers
I read somewhere recently that an average-sized wind tower, if the electricity generated were spread out evenly over a year, would be only enough to continuously run a 3000 watt water kettle. Thus, one could imagine a kettle plugged into a wind tower, and devise a simple capacity measure as 1 wind tower = 1 kettle. Sad to say, I cannot reliably do the sums to verify. Is this sensible?
We movef here 8 years ago. I kept my quarterly power bills. The consumption part – separate from the lump sum charges – has increased at quite close to 10% per annum. That is away, way above cpi, inflation, whatever. The only other commodity with a similar increase is domestic water supply, similar increase.
Given that people say that alt eng produces only a few % of national electricity, it is a pretty bloody expensive luxury. One I did not seek, one I was never asked about whether I wanted it.
As the Pythons once said ….. and now for something completely different.
So then, what is it with some young men and boats?
You all no doubt remember Bass and Flinders from your early days in Primary School and learning about the early explorers. What you never really learned as a young child though, was that these two men, when they did all this exploring were still only youngsters themselves, well relatively speaking anyway.
There is some talk that George Bass joined the Royal Navy at the age of 14 as an apprentice surgeon, but the real truth is probably that he did not join the Navy until he was 23, now as a fully trained surgeon. At that age of 14 it is true that he actually started his medical career, and at the age of 18 he was accepted as a full surgeon, and later he then joined the Royal Navy.
Matthew Flinders did join the Navy at the age of 15. On his first trip to Australia, in 1795, at the age of 20, he was a Midshipman aboard HMS Reliance, and it was here he first met George Bass, the ships surgeon, and Bass was 3 years older than he was.
Bass was a keen sailor, and had asked for permission to bring along his small boat he used for sailing, and it was lashed aboard Reliance.
When they arrived at Sydney Cove, and dropped off the new Governor, John Hunter to replace Arthur Phillip, Bass asked his new friend if he would like to join him sailing his small boat. The two of them, with another, then set off to have a sail.
George Bass was 24 and Matthew Flinders was 21.
Not just tooling around the Harbour mind you, because this is only 1795 remember, when there was only Sydney Cove, some close by smaller settlements, and the secondary settlement of Norfolk Island, well off to the North east.
No, they sailed out of Sydney Heads into the open ocean and turned South, and that first trip was to Botany Bay, and up the Georges River as far as what was Banks Town. (two words here, and now the one word, named for James Cook’s Botanist Joseph Banks)
The second trip, they went even further, down as far as what is now the Illawarra, discovering what is now Port Hacking.
That small boat, affectionately called Tom Thumb was only 8 feet long.
Think about that for a minute. The room you’re probably reading this in is probably bigger than that. The front board had a hole through it where they put a small pole and hoisted a small square sail.
Out the Sydney Heads and into the open Pacific Ocean, and then what amounted to well more than perhaps a couple of hundred miles, there and back, in the open sea, in an 8 foot boat.
The new Governor, John Hunter was pretty impressed with this, well, who wouldn’t be really.
So he allowed George Bass to have a bigger boat and a crew of 6 to explore even further. A surgeon mind you, and Matthew had his Naval duties to attend to so, George went off on his own with his 6 crew.
In a whaleboat with a small sail, now 16 feet long. George set off South to Cape Howe, the South Eastern tip of Australia. He then just kept going, and ended up at Western Port Bay, nearly to the entrance of Port Phillip Bay. He then went back to Sydney, now firm in his belief that there was a strait in this area, which would considerably shorten the trip to Sydney Cove, when those early ships had to sail around Van Diemens Land (now Tasmania) and then back North to get to Sydney.
Again, Hunter wanted this checked out thoroughly, so he saw that they were given the newly constructed Norfolk for this voyage of discovery in 1798. The Norfolk was a heavy lumbering boat rigged as a sloop, and built at Norfolk Island by convicts from the famed Norfolk Pines. It weighed in at around 25 tons, still virtually just a heavy yacht really. Flinders was the full Naval officer, and Bass still just a surgeon, so Flinders was given Command.
Flinders was now 24, and Bass, 27.
The circumnavigated and mapped Van Diemens Land, proving for certain that there was indeed that body of water to the North, now forever known as Bass Strait.
Now, with their careers enhanced by what they had done, these two young men had assured futures.
Bass returned to England and after marrying, he returned to Australia in 1801 without his wife, in his own private ship, Venus.
He set out from Sydney Cove in Venus in 1803 to sail for South America, and was never seen again. He was 32.
Matthew Flinders had a much celebrated career, as a navigator, and one of our most famous early Naval explorers. He sailed back to England in the 29 ton Schooner Cumberland, but was arrested by the French and held for six and a half years at what is now Mauritius. Whilst detained he wrote his celebrated book in which he canvassed the naming of this vast South Land as Australia, although he was probably not the first, as it was a variation of the name Terra Australis, but he was the first to actively pursue its use as the name for our Continent.
Back in England and now in poor health because of his detention, he eventually died in 1814. His book was finally published, barely weeks after he died.
Matthew Flinders was 40.
Australia was finally adopted as the name of our Country in 1901.
We have a lot to be thankful for these young men in boats, an 8 foot open boat at that.
Sorry Keith, I didn’t mention Matthew’s voyage of discovery around Australia, just his early days with his good mate George.
You can imagine someone going offshore for some fishing in a well planned trip, to a place well known, with an EPIRB, radio back to onshore, and all the facilities.
These guys just went where no man had ever been before, in what amounted to tiny little boats, and they did their own mapping as well, and hunted and gathered their own food along the way, with zero contact with ‘home’ until they sailed back into Sydney Cove.
It never ceases to amaze me, that they just jumped into something a little bigger than a bathtub, and just tooled off into the distance.
And in George Town, Tasmania, you can visit the Bass and Flinders Centre and see a full scale replica of the Norfolk, which itself has sailed around Van Diemen’s Land. There are many artifacts in the centre, including a Tom Thumb. George and Matthew are there as well, dressed in their Royal Navy regalia. Some com on down and have a look. You can visit the Fairy Penquins too.
Old men and boats a timline:
1486 Diaz rounds Cape of Good Hope.
1497 Vasco da Gama sails to India via the Cape.
1512 Portuguese discover the Moluccas.
1520 Magellan enters the Pacific.
1567 Alvarez discovers the Solomon Islands.
1595 Cornelius Houtman pilots Dutch ships to the East Indies.
1598 Dutch established at Java.
1606 Quiros discovers the New Hebrides.
Discovery of Torres Strait.
The DUYFKEN in the Gulf of Carpentaria.
1611 Brouwer’s new route to the East.
1616 Dirk Hartog on the Western Australian coast.
1622 English ship TRIAL wrecked off the west coast.
1627 Nuytsland discovered.
1636 Van Diemen Governor of Dutch East Indies.
1642 Tasman discovers Van Diemen’s Land and New Zealand.
1644 Tasman in the Gulf of Carpentaria.
1688 Dampier in the CYGNET in Australian waters.
1699 Dampier in the ROEBUCK in Shark’s Bay.
1768 Cook’s ENDEAVOUR voyage.
1770 Cook’s discovery of New South Wales.
1772 Cook’s RESOLUTION voyage.
1779 Banks suggests founding a convict settlement at Botany Bay.
1782 End of the American War of Independence.
1783 Matra’s plan of colonization in New South Wales.
1785 Sir George Young’s plan.
1786 Determination to found a settlement at Botany Bay.
1788 Foundation of Sydney.
Back in England and now in poor health because of his detention, he eventually died in 1814. His book was finally published, barely weeks after he died.
‘Twas on the Good Ship Venus
by Gosh you should have seen us
I have heard that the likely cause of Mathew Flinders’ ill health was chronic urinary tract infections consequent on contracting the clap in Tahiti on his voyage with Bligh ca 1790.
The dinosaur Dreadnoughtus weighed 59,300 kilograms and measured 26 metres long. It was an herbivore that likely spent much of its life eating massive quantities of plants to maintain its enormous body size. (Mark A. Klingler/Carnegie Museum of Natural History/The Associated Press)
Need to know if this beastie was warm or cold blooded. If cold blooded it must have lived in a VERY WARM CLIMATE to grow so big on just veggies. Think about that. 🙂
Yet another vacuous post. Scientific Dinosaurs that can do math will be correct, while fillies that can’t will still be wrong. This is not a beauty contest or some trendy keeping up with the joneses ego fest, this is just about truth.
The math says global warming can’t be worse than 1.5 degrees C per doubling and mankinds contribution is less than half that (0.7 Deg per doubling or less) when you learn some math then you can attempt to refute that.
On the moral front it’s hard for you to take the high ground when your policies manage to kill tens of thousands a year, you advocate burning carbohydrates that could feed the worlds hungry, you advocate diverting billions from the invention and production of lifesaving medicines, and you advocate keeping half the worlds population poor and dying by refusing them the same cheap energy you benefit from.
We scientific dinosaurs who can manage a bit of math say that spending a quarter of a quadrillion dollars to prevent 1 degree temp rise is probably money wasted.
The math and satellite data says that the anthropogenic influence is positive and the natural influence is negative( baseline 1950). Proof positive that GHG’s are the main forcings on temperature. There was a Jo article earlier about carbon combustion causing death in the home, you want to transfer the problem, not resolve it.
The article in question was about health issues related to particulate matter released into the air inside dwellings from open hearths and stoves burning wood, coal, dung etc. and had nothing to do with “carbon combustion causing death” unless you are referring to carbon monoxide poisoning. You should read it again: Up to 4 million die from indoor air pollution annually (they need cheap coal-fired electricity!)
…Jo article earlier about carbon combustion causing death in the home…
You are the only one who brought up “carbon combustion” here. It’s not in the post or the article. The rest of us were talking about burning coal or biomass indoors. Natural gas or LP gas are also “carbon combustion” and both are used safely and effectively for cooking. You need to work on your reading comprehension ’cause I think my champagne molly’s reading skills are a bit higher than yours.
No, the alarmista interpretation after “adjustment” is that humans have caused the climate to change.
1. The climate hasn’t changed, probably not at all during your life time.
2. Most of the so-called warming before 1979 can be placed as either data adjustment or as a natural and wholly beneficial climb out of a period called the Little Ice Age. We are still actually only just above the coldest period of the whole Holocene, not even up near the beneficial temperatures of the Medieval period.
Another degree or so would be nearly 100% beneficial to the whole world because it would happen in colder areas, Extra CO2 is also only beneficial to the world, it helps grow that mouldy hay you have obviously been eating.
3. There is absolutely no proof that GHGs cause any warming. Point us to the paper that proves this, models not included.
Your random spews of mule braying are becoming more and more “non-science”, and more and more incoherent. (Its funny to watch, sorry! 😉 )
It is obvious that you have fallen for the whole global warming scam, and that your tiny donkey brain is thoroughly brain-washed with irrelevant and incorrect junk, leaving it unable to think a rational or a coherent thought.
Wheres YOUr math filly, I dont see one number in that post. Here’s 2 simple problems for you
If C x lm(400ppm/270ppm)is 0.8 C then what is it for a doubling silly, go on, do tell us?
If GHGs from nothing causes 33 degrees warming from all causes including feedback, and GHGs (CO2) are absorbing 86% of available energy in their stopband then what is the maximum warming that trapping the additional 15% of energy by CO2 could do? Now consider experts say only 10 degrees of total atmospheric warming is caused by GHGs, what warming figure do you get then filly?
C’mon it’s simple math, no calculus even, hardest thing you need to do is press the ln button on your calculator….
[ for those interested because I know filly isn’t,
the first problem gives the historical warming rate since 1850, and works out to about 1.3 C per doubling total, and 0.7 degrees per doubling human caused, because the ipcc attributes just half warming to man.
The second problem compares Total atmospheric warming of 33 degrees, and the degree to which the CO2 stopband is opaque (85%) once the stopband is 100% opaque, CO2 can’t absorb any more energy, because there is none left to absorb. The answers are
5.8 deg C for a totally CO2 atmosphere or about 0.5 deg per doubling if CO2 controls all warming and using the scientists own 10 deg of greenhouse related warming it’s about 2 deg C warmer for a 100% CO2 atmosphere or about 0.2 degrees per doubling.
0.7 deg per doubling, 0.2 deg per doubling hardly seems a problem to me?
The power of mathematics silly, care to refute my calcs (math required)?
I’d love to meet you, it might be that your not as scientifically moronic as you profess(but I doubt it). At least we have the Swans in common (still holding the original ticket for the first home game).
They have guestimated that this mega beast weighed in at about 59 thousand kgs and was a herbivore that likely spent much of its life eating massive quantities of plants to maintain its enormous body size and this was supposedly 77 millions years ago.
Does this not speak to the fact that the world back then was much warmer than today and that CO2 levels way back then were in the 1,000’s of parts per million which would have been required so that plants could grow in humongous quantities to feed beast of this size?
So really global warming back then was very beneficial for beasts of this size to be able to dominate and flourish in their environments.
And the measly increase today of about 100 ppm of CO2 to the current 400 ppm is supposed to be detrimental to our environment and the end of our world is at hand because of this.
I want to revisit Jo’s post last week regarding New Scientist’s favourable report on a proposal to apportion blame for weather events on man-made global warming.
Hopefully that scheme will start soon.
It won’t take them long to realise their folly.
Warmists berate western governments for failing to impose draconian carbon-based energy restrictions.
Australians are berated by warmists claiming that we are behind so many countries who run emission trading schemes or such like.
With recent years showing no increase in global surface temperature, fewer hurricanes/cyclones and with droughts and floods within historical range values, I look forward to being reminded that any day’s very average weather is somehow the result of humankind’s callous interference with climate.
If they only wish to apportion blame to “extreme” weather events, they will remove themselves from the scene during normal-range weather conditions. That will give us all a rest from being accused of future killing of our great-grandchildren’s children.
Perhaps they can console themselves with a concocted “assurance” that the few flimsy ETS/carbon tax schemes operating have already been incredibly successful and swept away most of the climatic threats causing their stress.
I made a “brief” comment in response to a disturbing post by my sister on Facebook where she asked for recommendations on Brand X and Brand W PV solar panels. After a break, I converted my comment into a blog post.
Do you want my electricity price to rise while you save on yours?
Do you want to do a quarter of a century’s pollution by the end of the month?
False Economies
Wait until the Renewable Energy Target (RET) is cancelled/nullified , the RET funds the certificates that are credited to you when you install the system; based on the notion of performance “assumed” by the installers over 15 years of system life. Most people “sell” the certificates to the company installing the solar system in return for a “discount” or “rebate”. Reliable generators of electricity; those who generate electricity whenever there’s a demand; are compelled by law to buy certificates from “renewable sources” if they don’t produce enough of their electricity by “renewable” means.
Energy Imbalance
… Durability
… Long-term Performance
… Decrepid in 15 Years
… PV Electricity Not Allowed While the Sun Shines
… Packaged Pollution
It makes no rational sense to install domestic PV where there is an easy connection to an electricity grid. In terms of environmental costs, one is simply causing the next 15 to 25 years’ of equivalent pollution to be done “now” when installing such systems. In part, that explains the pollution in e.g. India and China.
The detail of environmental impact is actually worse; as “traditional” electricity production gets cleaner and more efficient every year; it’s 15 to 25 years at today’s (and yesterday’s) capabilities embedded in the PV systems; not the steady improvements in electricity generation that can be tapped into via the grid over the coming years.
Read what’s behind the ellipses by following the link.
Nice one Bernd. Has anyone got an Energy budget for production of Solar PV panels, to quantify that lifetime energy cost vs. production, to educate anyone tending to warmism?
There’s energy required for disposal; including the crushing of glass, silicon, etc and the extraction of the traces of (toxic) heavy metals which make the PV cells work in the first place.
One must also note that the “renewable” means have a shorter life than the traditional generators; between 20% and 50% of that of e.g. nuclear power stations. So comaprisons must take that into account.
I have noticed on Facebook recently that the green carpetbaggers are running posts on the proposed removal of the RET. Showing black and white pictures of dinosaurs in suits and warning about the removal of the RET.
Next month, we’re standing up to those blocking action on climate change.
Pacific Climate Warriors will journey to Australia, where we will use traditional canoes to peacefully lay down a challenge to the fossil fuel industry.
On October 17 the canoes will serve as a symbol of our threatened cultures, and will lead a flotilla in the world’s largest coal port – Newcastle.
This is a huge undertaking. Building and transporting canoes and at least 30 Pacific Warriors all costs a lot. We can’t do it without you!
Every dollar donated goes straight to the costs of shipping the canoes, and the journey for the warriors to Australia.
Not all cultures are worth preserving. Consider tinea and ISIS.
What I find astounding is the tolerance for people who want to preserve human cultures for their personal satisfaction; never having lived as part of the culture that they seek to preserve. To compel/condemn others to a culture that doesn’t offer freedom, education, modern health care, … and worst of all; limiting the scope for the individuals to be at their best in the modern world.
Some stuff is better left in the museums of ethnology.
“Every morning, we wake up and the ocean is there, surrounding our island. But now the ocean, driven by climate change is creeping ever closer. Unless something changes, many of our Pacific Islands face losing everything to sea level rise. For 20 years we’ve asked world leaders to take action to stop polluting the atmosphere. We cannot wait longer. Now, warriors of the Pacific are rising peacefully to protect the Pacific Islands from climate change.
Our message: We are not drowning. We are fighting.”
Fighting without any help from the coal fired profit moguls and languishing in the oily detritus of profiteers who refuse to compensate for their environmental damage, that “incidental cost” not borne by shareholders and returned as their profit!
“Codswallop”? Typical of the terms we colonials never hear since the late dustup of 1776. We had to come up with our own term of “Dumbass”. Not so much an exercise of the tongue, but right to the point.
You are so mathematically inept filly, please do tell, how much energy will it take to make the oceans that much warmer and where is it going to come from?
This is like saying the west antarctic shelf is melting from greenhouse warming when greenhouse warming produces less that 1/20th of the energy necessary to do that.
Filly, to assert something like that, you have to prove that the GHG energy imbalance of 0.6 W per square meter is capable of meeting the energy needs of the effect you ascribe to it. Otherwise you are just spouting empty rhetoric.
News in science
Antarctic sea level rising faster than global rate
Date: August 31, 2014
Source:
University of Southampton
Summary:
A new study of satellite data from the last 19 years reveals that fresh water from melting glaciers has caused the sea level around the coast of Antarctica to rise by 2cm more than the global average of 6cm. Researchers detected the rapid rise in sea-level by studying satellite scans of a region that spans more than a million square kilometers. The melting of the Antarctic ice sheet and the thinning of floating ice shelves has contributed an excess of around 350 gigatonnes of freshwater to the surrounding ocean.
So, a little over 2,200 years ago a Greek guy named Archimedes postulated that water, absent another force, would seek its own level. No one has proven him wrong in the intervening millennia and almost everything we have ever built that is level owes him for that discovery. That means that if the sea level is higher only at Antarctica you have only the following causes to blame:
—
Wind driven water is piling up against Antarctica. Just like blowing on the surface of your tea makes the level higher on the other side.
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Upwelling. Significant flow from undersea pushes the level up locally. A fountain jet barely running under the surface of a pond is an example of this. Not likely in Antarctica since the much colder air cools the ocean surface and that cold water sinks.
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The shore is sinking or settling. This is most likely since the outer shell of our planet is floating on a global ocean of molten rock and is constantly moving. Bonus fact, Antarctica’s tectonic plate sinks under the places it has more ice on it due to the additional weight.
…the thinning of floating ice shelves…
Archimedes again, ice floating in water, when fully melted, will actually lower the level of the “container” it is in because a floating body displaces its equivalent weight in the liquid it’s floating in. Water levels will actually be lower as ice has a larger volume than the equivalent mass of water due to the way its molecules solidify. The rest of the world has known this for almost 23 centuries… you should read more.
Pour more water in(from any other external source like land ice) and your analogy is pure BS. BTW, saw your commenting on steve goddard’s blog the other day, did you notice his graph of the rise in Australian minimum temperatures since 1910.
He started by noticing some contradictory problems with the temp records and temp anomalies (including your minimum temp anomaly rise) and wondered what was causing them. Then a couple of posts using GHCN Australian data showing a decrease in days above 100ºF (37.78ºC) as well as an historic heat wave in 1896. Hmmm… none of that showing anything that could cause that out-of-character rise… except for UHI which he noted directly above the min anomaly graph you cite. (See Some Progress With Australia) I didn’t see that part mentioned in your comment… I wonder why. We’ll continue with a synopsis of the Australian data outlined on Stephen Goddard’s Real Science blog.
He did a post showing how GHCN was using very little Australian data prior to ~1957 and by starting there has created an artificial warming trend that doesn’t hold up if you use all the data available: Bathurst Maximum Temperature Since The 1850s
Then shows the Berkeley Earth temperature archive showing little or no warming in Oz from 1860 and that GHCN has even cooked the post 1957 Australian data they do have by a half degree or so: Major Monkey Business In Australia
Hmmm… neither of those show a real warming trend so let’s keep looking. I’m not going to put all the links here but if you re-read all his Oz posts starting September 1st you would see he’s also shown:
—NASA cooking the data for Bathurst hiding a 1.3ºC decline from 1910 to 1983 by creating a 0.3ºC rise.
—Found one of your warming trends in Narrogin, WA… until you look at the station which is now sited in a median strip between two roads in an urban area. Looks like that “warming” is all UHI.
—How about that warming trend at Streaky Bay, SA? That station’s right near the bay “…right in the middle of a jungle of asphalt and buildings.” Oops, another UHI problem and GHCN again tossing the data from pre 1957. No real warming here.
—How about Nhill, Victoria? Nice long term rural station… pretty flat over a century with no real trend. That doesn’t get you any warming either.
—The next one he looks at is a “semi-rural” site at Richmond, Queensland Post Office. Hmmm… dead flat trend for a century.
None of this is definitive but it looks as if the warming trends require data after 1957 only and it helps to pick only those stations that have been built around for the GHCN and it never hurts the cause to have NASA and the BoM actively making it warmer inside the computer files.
Oops, forgot the other point. I quoted you saying that floating ice shelves contribute to sea level rise. You do know that’s incorrect and the point of my post at 10.3… right?
It’s typical Green “thinking” (sic). If AUS abolishes the World’s Biggest Carbon Tax, then AUS (and only AUS) will get more floodsdroughtscyclonesweirdweatherextremecoldbushfires. And if ice melts in Antarctica, then the sea level rises more in Antarctica. Despite the laws of physics.
Presumably since nobody cares about the sea level in Antarctica, this is a GOOD thing – the Pacific Islands have even less to worry about as they get proportionately less sea level rise than even the trivial mm’s previously calculated!
BTW, does anyone know why atolls are around 1m above sea level? Could it be that they corals simply stop growing when they hit the atmosphere? And if so, no matter how high the water goes, they will simply follow it up like (and I’m using the scientific terms for Developmentally-delayed Mule’s benefit) a rubber ducky in a bathtub?
If we killed more whales, wouldn’t that help to lower the water level? Maybe ban the big cruise boats too and their thoughtless displacement of water. Plus develop a kinda roster system for surfers so we don’t get too many at one time pushing those ocean levels up. 🙁
Two months before Election Day, his climate change advocacy group, which has targeted Maine, has a relatively minor presence on the air.
When he vowed to spend as much as $50 million of his own money, and raise the same from like-minded donors, billionaire Tom Steyer electrified the political world with his promise to make climate change an issue in this year’s midterm elections.
Those elections are now two months away, and the former hedge fund manager is running out of time…
…To be sure, Steyer hasn’t backed away from the midterms. He’s given more money than anyone else this year to the myriad of political groups spending freely to buy television ads, call voters and pack mailboxes with fliers. Since the 2012 election, he’s personally donated almost $26 million to his super PAC, NextGen Climate Action, with $5 million of that earmarked for a donation to a group run by former top aides to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid that’s focused on keeping the Senate in Democratic hands.
But NextGen has gotten little other support, collecting only about $1.7 million from other donors through the end of July. Steyer’s nonprofit, NextGen Climate, does not have to disclose its finances, but it also cannot be explicitly political in its actions.
Does anyone know why Sydney fuel prices have been down for such an extended period(not that I don’t like it)but why?Do the fuel companies think we need a break from the normal reaming,has it got to do with the carbon tax or do the fuel companies just need to keep the fuel moving to make room for the next boatload?
We are now a net exporter of gas. We are wallowing in the stuff, but as supply drives the price down, our weasels in DC and state capitols are piling on the taxes.
And, you are now starting to see the truth of this:
“HOUSTON — Domestic oil production will continue to soar for years to come, the Energy Department predicted on Monday, scaling to levels not seen in nearly half a century by 2016”
I hate to get back to dangerous subjects but if you think climate change is dangerous you should try finding an adult cobra wandering around your yard as happened in Thousand Oaks, California. It took several days to track it down and bag it. As it turns out it had its venom glands fully intact and could give a deadly bite if cornered. You’re dead in a matter of hours if not treated. I think I’ll take climate change any day.
LOLwut? They rest of the world’s snakes are so weak that when they bite you you live for HOURS??? Hahahahahahahahaha – those are called “earthworms” here.
Roy, about six months ago the good wife went out on the back veranda and saw what she at first took to be a stick on a towel she had set out to dry on the railing. (eyesight not the best without gblasses). Fortunately, at the last minute, she realised it was a tiger snake. He was docile enough that I took several close-up photographs of him. We called the local reptile management folks, and Jake (he has a name now) remained asleep until they got here with their snake picker upper, but Jake quickly slithered under the deck. I think Jake has taken up residence, because a) the reptile guy said that a tiger that tame and brazen would have to be a resident, and b) we haven’t seen a rat or a mouse all winter, and we usually have a battle with them becasue of the animal feed around the place and c) we frequently encounter a bunny that has just mysteriously up and croaked. So I think we have a pet tiger snake on the property. I just have to remind myself to avoid sticking my hand into any blind alleys.
A neighbour of ours had a very aggressive tiger snake on his property. It went for him every time he went outside…he ended up having to take the commonsense action. Ours haven’t been so bad but we have a child here at times and a dog. Actually, DD stood on a big fat one once; she had only shorts and sandals on at the time (silly girl but she hasn’t made that mistake again). She says she jumped back about 8ft in one go and ran. Her silly thoroughbred ran along with her thinking it all great fun! I don’t think he saw the snake or he’d have been even sillier.
Folklore in these parts maintains that tiger snakes are aggressive and attack.
I asked the local reptile guru about that and his answer was no. He maintains that when threatened a tiger snake will go on a mission to find his burrow for safety. If a person happens to be between Mr. tiger and safety, it appear that the snake is on the attack, but in fact is on the run to safety. However, as the immortal Mr. Feynman once remarked science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts. That may include snake gurus.
Of course Tasmanian folklore is also rife with stories about the wheel snakes, too.
Snakes are predators so they will go after anything that looks like prey when they’re hungry. Fortunately humans don’t look like prey to all but the largest of snakes.
Otherwise the snake is very vulnerable, being prey itself for other critters. So the gurus are right, they don’t attack or strike unless they’re cornered or you surprise them. They retreat. They don’t want to have a fight with anyone.
That fact that they are prey to other animals is the key to understanding them.
On the other hand I wouldn’t want such a snake as the tiger hanging around my place. I’d have it hunted down and removed. There’s too much danger of your slipping up and getting bitten.
I had an incident with a “rattlesnake” in my yard years ago that ended up embarrassing me. I had a small pile of old lumber beside the garage. One Saturday I was out there and as I approached that pile of lumber I heard the characteristic rattle of the rattlesnake. I picked up a long stick and moved that lumber pile a bit and sure enough, there was the snake. Not wanting to mess with it myself I called for help and the fire department responded. The fire truck in turn brought out my neighbor’s son, which turned out to be fortuitous.
Anyway, they went to the wood pile and began carefully uncovering the snake. Then to my surprise one of them bent down and picked it up in his bare hands. To my chagrin it wasn’t a rattlesnake at all but a common gophersnake. It turns out that those gophersnakes have learned to emulate the rattler by vibrating their tails against whatever is handy, in this case a thin piece of wood.
The next thing I know I’m being asked what I want them to do with it and my neighbor’s son spoke right up and asked for it. So he got the snake, I got to wipe some egg off my face and the fire truck went back to the fire station.
End of story except that I’ve wondered ever since how a snake completely unrelated to the rattlesnake could learn that trick. It seems the world around us is something more complex and sophisticated than we give it credit for.
I didn’t know this would set off such a conversation. But I’ll still settle for the rattlesnakes.
Since the area has become so built up around me and the snake’s habitat has been pushed back there’s no longer a significant chance of finding one in my yard. But I learned to respect them and how to deal with them as a Boy Scout on camping trips with a leader who knew his outdoorsmanship very well.
In the Southern California mountains in the summer they are a very likely encounter if you go hiking away from a campsite. But they will stay away from human activity if they can, although that’s by no means guaranteed. The greatest danger is that they don’t always rattle as you approach, so hiking boots suitably heavy to stop a snakes fangs are a good defense. They can only strike near the ground and only for a distance of about half their length at most. So with adult rattlers reaching about 3 to 4 feet average, you’re safe at 2 plus feet away, 3 feet (1 meter) for safety margin. They aren’t interested in a fight with you anymore than you want a fight with them so they will retreat if you let them. And since the wild is their rightful home that’s exactly what you should do. But if they’re cornered they will strike.
If they’re found in your yard the fire department or animal control will respond and capture the snake. It’s then taken back to where it’s safe for both humans and the snake and released.
A rattlesnake bite is survivable, possibly without treatment if you’re an adult in good health. But a child gets more poison relative to body mass and it’s then another matter. But no matter who and no matter if treated right away, it will not be a fun experience.
Roy
About forty years ago a friend near Kamloops BC had a pet crow. He had hand raised the bird from the time it was a chick. Now that region of BC is thick with rattlers. Ron was a superb outdoorsman, and in order to feed the crow would, in the fall of the year, go out to collect a whole sack full of rattle snakes. He used a two meter length of steel tubing with a wire loop protruding from the end. Once the loop was over the snakes head, he could tighten the noose by pulling on the wire in the handle. Ron would take a sack or two of snakes home and put them in the deep freeze. The rattlers of course go into hibernation at the minus twenty in the freezer. Fresh meat for the crow for the whole winter!
Are you sure they went into hibernation? In the refrigerator at something above freezing they would do exactly that but freezing them would kill them.
I have a tortoise in the back yard. She winters under a large shrub my wife planted where she’s protected from overnight frost. If she ever actually froze it would be the end of her. She can even stand being under water for a log time after a heavy rain when hibernating. But freezing any reptile would be as bad as freezing you or me.
I apologise. Hibernation was not the right word to use. They were meat for his crow. He would just take one out of the freezer every couple of days, saw a piece off it, and put it back int eh freeze. The sawn off piece, once thawed out, would become dinner for the pet crow.
The crow as I recall was nothing short of amazing. Ron had a cap on his pickup and the crow would ride in there. When he stopped for any period of time, he would open the cap and the crow would fly free. When it was time to go, Ron would just whistle as you would for a pet dog, and the crow would come winging in from the woods and and land in the back of the truck.
As for the tiger snake, I’m uneasy about having him around, but to go searching for him on this property would be difficult if not impossible. They travel, and we have recently disposed of all the livestock. With no feed around, there is nothing to attract mice and rats, so I expect the snake will, if he hasn’t already, will just move on. Mind you, they love frogs, and we have a million of them in various ponds. He may be a permanent resident.
Interesting. It would certainly beat hand cranking of a generator with similar capacity. But you apparently do have to do that hour of walking equivalent knee movement to get that output. I have to suspect not everyone who could benefit from this would be able to do an hour of walking. I know because I’m stuck with using a cane these days and I would no longer attempt that much walking in a day without very good reason.
I hope it does live up to its potential though. One more option for staying in communication will do a lot for the soldier on the battlefield. And the way things are going it looks like we’re headed for troops on the ground whether the president thinks so or not.
Which reminds me — when is NATO going to step up to the plate and start pulling the full weight for its own defense? We carry about 75% of the load and it’s high time for that to change.
Then Saudi Arabia better get on the ball or ISIS will soon be running the place, which will be an economic disaster and I’d rather be supporting the Saudis than NATO. For God’s sake, what real national interest does the United States have in Ukraine compared with the middle east?
And no, I’m not an isolationist or an interventionist. I’m a realist.
Just all down to the grunt on the frontline supported by his country and their respective tax-payer.
But that has been happening for hundreds of years dating back to cast iron contracts for men, weapons and supplies set out by various monarchs since the Crusades.
Maybe we should send Biden and his son to Ukraine to live and work. That would settle the National Buffoon vice president and assure a better next-in-line for the White House.
On the other hand we wouldn’t have the National Buffoon to bash around anymore.
Roy,it depends on which conspiracy theory you go with.
Who has the most control over Europe,russia or U.S.
Whether the $US remains as the world currency or other twisted theories.Its got nothing to do with what is good for ukraine,just world politics.
Unfortunately you’re absolutely right. It’s politics. And politics is the most expensive game in the world.
I suspect that to many in politics it’s not only a “game” in quotes but a game they play with each other for real just because they can. It has nothing to do with doing their appointed job. And it leads to our “leaders” being held in contempt by so many of those they say they lead.
Who has any confidence in Obama for instance? Certainly no one I know.
Didn’t you hear? The anointed one supposedly reached an agreement that all NATO members will contribute 2.6% of their GDP to fund NATO, up from 2.0%. That’s a mere $405,600,000,000 by my math. Now we only need to borrow some more to cover that. It was a quick blurb on TV, but so far I can’t confirm.
Received a call from the Human Rights Commission a week or so ago in relation to my 18C on Palmer.
Firstly, they questioned my heritage. I intimated that the person was getting close to crossing the line and enquired who do I complain to if the HRC contravenes 18C. Talk of back peddling!
Secondly, the person put to me that Palmer has indeed apologised. I differed because Palmer’s so called apology was to the Chinese Embassy and hence not a public apology as I requested.
So it has gone back to the HRC for further consideration. The wedge is on!
18c prevents any speech which may cause offence or insult, therefore making just about any comment about a culture or race interpreted as such for political and personal gain and liable for prosecution – introduced by our previous Australian socialist Labor Government who also tried to introduce new media laws making it illegal for negative comments about that government – specifically targeted against Rupert Murdoch News Corp – talk about communist regimes.
Yes, a columnist named Andrew Bolt who advocated that programs designed to improve employment and education prospects for indigenous Australians were being exploited by people who claimed indigenous heritage but looked non-indigenous. Andrew Bolt claimed this was detrimental to indigenous people who were discriminated against on their appearance and who missed out on positions in these programs because of the people who claimed indigenous heritage but did not appear to be indigenous and who therefore would have no problems gaining employment or education through the normal processes.
And it cost him a considerable amount of money – into the hundreds of thousands.
Thanks. Now I understand. I knew Bolt was under attack by the Australian Government but I didn’t connect it with 18C, which I’d never heard of by that name.
As I remember he won or is expected to win the case or am I wrong? And even if vindicated he’ll have no recourse to recoup his losses. Governments typically need to give you permission to sue them, and who is going to do that?
————————
After reading the basic text of the law I’m struck with how they always manage to make it sound so beneficial to everyone — until you get into the analysis of it. Obamacare comes to mind.
He did not win. The articles concerned, although archived on the net, cannot be republished, and any quoting therefrom needs legal clearance, or you risk contempt of court.
And don’t feel alone. They want to do that here. Thankfully the First Amendment makes it a lot harder for them. But who knows how far Obama will dare to go with his pen and his phone?
The intent is to convince the PUP senators to support the Private Members’ Bill that will be introduced jointly by Bob Day and Cory Bernardi in the senate.
I’m willing to take Palmer and others to court on this issue if there is no public apology.
I see the carpetbaggers have been putting pressure on the government in relation to the RET.
I believe the RET should be abolished completely and so called renewable energy come under the Direct Action umbrella. Let’s see if any of the schemes pass a cost benefit analysis. Most unlikely.
Why can’t I edit what I’ve just posted?
Or as Demented Doggeral says it –
The Moving Cursor prints; and with fonted word,
Moves on: not your Piety nor your Wit
can remove that cursive, nor that script.
No EU’s ‘right to be forgot’, no Google writ
Shall summon HTML to cancel a line,
Nor will your Tears wash away a Word of it.
Gee Aye,
The more industrial and wealthy a country gets, the longer its people generally live. It’s financial poverty and energy poverty that yields short life expectancy and both kinds of poverty is are what the Greens would not only bring us, but actually wish to bring us. Like the Islamists, they hate the West. They don’t care about your lungs and they don’t care whether you freeze either. Their only interest in particles in the air is in how they can use them to political advantage. They are actually more concerned about the feelings of the IS head hackers than your well being. That’s unless you are one of them . . . and even then.
Want to live to a ripe old age? By far the most important factor in life expectancy is wealth
That is something I read about long before I became interested in the Greens and global warming. I read about Africa particularly being a place where poverty kills.
The hidden crisis of energy poverty condemns billions of men, women and children in the developing world to continue to live in absolute poverty because they have no access to modern energy services; energy which is taken for granted in the developed world at the flick of a switch or the press of a button.
Expensive power also reduces a county’s ability to be industrial and to be competitive, thus making it poorer and less healthy. Now to cold and ensuing lower life expectancy, this from the UK’s Daily Mail:
Spiralling energy bills contributed to 24,000 deaths last winter, as many elderly people cut back on their heating.
The shocking toll will increase fears that the number will be even higher this year because of further increases in energy bills and warnings of a particularly cold winter.
Cold homes, caused by factors including high energy costs and poor insulation, are known to exacerbate a number of underlying medical conditions in the elderly, leading to more deaths during the winter.
Cold kills a lot more people than heat. It is definitely more a threat to humans than are properly designed domestic wood heaters, let alone coal-fired power stations. The Greens wanted only the most expensive power for us. With the $23 per tonne ‘carbon’ (i.e. CO2) tax, we already had, by far, the most expensive CO2 tax in the world. They wanted it to come in at $40 and increase rapidly. They wanted reliable and cheap power from coal-fired power stations stopped and replaced with very expensive and unreliable power from solar and bird munching wind power. Unless they are thoroughly stupid, they knew what this would mean. As usual, they showed no hint of concern. And all for what? To make a difference in temperature so small as to not be measurable. And that’s if the models were right and things are as bad as the they predicted. So far, it doesn’t look like it. In a few years we have gone from having among the cheapest power in the world, to having among the most expensive. Meanwhile China is building a coal-fired power station a week. Forget the deceptive argument about China putting up clean ones, an argument that pretends that China’s CO2 emissions will be going down. Like hell they will. They will be going through the roof [link].
I will deal with may other statements regarding the Greens and their agenda hopefully later today.
In continuing my response to Gee Aye, I’ll expand on the second part of my earlier comment:
Like the Islamists, they [the Greens] hate the West. They don’t care about your lungs and they don’t care whether you freeze either. Their only interest in particles in the air is in how they can use them to political advantage. They are actually more concerned about the feelings of the IS head hackers than your well being. That’s unless you are one of them . . . and even then.
I said that the Greens hate the West. This is demonstrated over and over by things they say and do and by things they don’t say and don’t do. We have already seen how these meddling control freaks are prepared to let people live uncomfortably or even die from not being able to use affordable and safe power. That’s only the tip of the iceberg. Their revile for Australia and the West was significantly demonstrated only this week. Senator Whish-Wilson of the Greens made this astonishing confessioncomment:
“I think we need to find better words than ‘terrorist’ and ‘terrorism’ because, to me, this implies a very one-sided view of the world,” Senator Whish-Wilson told the upper house on Monday night.
“Anything that creates terror is, by definition, terrorism. We use that word because it is a very simple word to use and it demonises people.”
He’s worried that name calling the head hackers ‘terrorists’ is unfair and demonising. Is he for real? Yes he is. The Greens are never on the side of the West, our side. The Greens and the head hackers share the same foes. One would have thought that Christine Milne, the Greens leader would fake it and distance herself and the Greens from the comments of Whish-Wilson, but she didn’t; she came back defending his comments with sidestepping waffle:
Senator Whish-Wilson was describing a well-understood part of counter-insurgency strategy: that extremists sometimes use the military intervention of outside countries as a tool to radicalism (sic) people,” she said in a statement.
Another example is the Greens’ support for Hamas against Israel:
GREENS senator Lee Rhiannon has lashed out against Israel, accusing the Jewish state of a “massacre” in Gaza as strife continues. “Israel is the aggressor here,” she told ABC radio’s Hack program.
Whatever side the West is on, the Greens will be on the other. This reliable bias is reflected in their policies on asylum seeker arriving illegally by smuggler boats. They would actually like to see Australia’s borders opened, no doubt salivating at the irreversible social, demographic and economic wreckage that would ensue. They put on the facade of compassion, but it is their political cause they care about, not people. Only today I saw Sarah Hanson-Young feigning outrage at the death of a second asylum seeker in custody. But there wasn’t even a hint of concern when their bedfellows, Labor, seriously weakened our borders and thousands of illegal immigrants poured in, resulting in the drowning deaths of at least 1,200 people and probably a lot more. Let’s recall what she said:
Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young yesterday stood by her party’s policies. Pressed on whether the Greens accepted responsibility for the tragedy, Senator Hanson-Young said: “Of course not. Tragedies happen, accidents happen.”
Now imagine how ballistic the media would have gone if Abbott had said that even about just one asylum seeker. The relative media friendliness to the anti-West Greens and the hostility to the Conservatives is actually another part of the jigsaw puzzle.
I’ll continue this in another post that might come tomorrow.
This is the third and closing part to my reply to Gee Aye regarding the Greens. The first and second appear above.
When the Berlin Wall fell, people naively assumed that the ideology it harboured, simply evaporated. As if the communist parties around the world (including the Australian Communist Party) suddenly said, “Well, let’s be Conservatives then.” When visiting Sydney in 2011, Czech President Vaclav Klaus said:
“I feel threatened now, not by global warming — I don’t see any — (but) by the global warming doctrine, which I consider a new dangerous attempt to control and mastermind my life and our lives, in the name of controlling the climate or temperature.”
Klaus, 70, who has twice been elected as Czech President and is its former prime minister, is one of the most important figures in post-communist Europe.
“They don’t care about resources or poverty or pollution.
“They hate us, the humans. They consider us dangerous and sinful creatures who must be controlled by them.
I only found that today, but its essence is very close to what I wrote a few days ago:
Gee Aye,
The more industrial and wealthy a country gets, the longer its people generally live. It’s financial poverty and energy poverty that yields short life expectancy and both kinds of poverty is what the Greens would not only bring us, but actually wish to bring us. Like the Islamists, they hate the West. They don’t care about your lungs and they don’t care whether you freeze either. Their only interest in particles in the air is in how they can use them to political advantage. They are actually more concerned about the feelings of the IS head hackers than your well being. That’s unless you are one of them . . . and even then.
The following account provides insight into how the ideology has evolved into something more covert. It was happening well before the fall of the Berlin Wall. From Mallory Millett (my bold):
It was 1969. Kate [Mallory’s sister] invited me to join her for a gathering at the home of her friend, Lila Karp. They called the assemblage a “consciousness-raising-group,” a typical communist exercise, something practiced in Maoist China. We gathered at a large table as the chairperson opened the meeting with a back-and-forth recitation, like a Litany, a type of prayer done in Catholic Church. But now it was Marxism, the Church of the Left, mimicking religious practice:
“Why are we here today?” she asked.
“To make revolution,” they answered.
. . . . . . . .
“And how do we make Cultural Revolution?” she demanded.
“By destroying the American family!” they answered.
“How do we destroy the family?” she came back.
. . . . . . . . .
“By destroying monogamy!” they shouted.
“How can we destroy monogamy?”
. . . . . . . . .
“By promoting promiscuity, eroticism, prostitution and homosexuality!” they resounded.
They proceeded with a long discussion on how to advance these goals by establishing The National Organization of Women. It was clear they desired nothing less than the utter deconstruction of Western society. The upshot was that the only way to do this was “to invade every American institution. Every one must be permeated with ‘The Revolution’”: The media, the educational system, universities, high schools, K-12, school boards, etc.; then, the judiciary, the legislatures, the executive branches and even the library system.
The message to women is to behave like alley cats so as to gain respect . . . . . from leftist/feminist loons, that is. Further down Mallory says (my bold):
I continued with my new life in New York while my sister became famous publishing her books, featured on the cover of “Time Magazine.” “Time” called her “the Karl Marx of the Women’s Movement.” This was because her book laid out a course in Marxism 101 for women. Her thesis: The family is a den of slavery with the man as the Bourgeoisie and the woman and children as the Proletariat. The only hope for women’s “liberation” (communism’s favorite word for leading minions into inextricable slavery; “liberation,” and much like “collective” – please run from it, run for your life) was this new “Women’s Movement.” Her books captivated the academic classes and soon “Women’s Studies” courses were installed in colleges
Women’s Studies are now called Gender Studies. Strong families are essential to a strong society but the Left’s drive to break up marriages continues today, but with greater force. Here are the comments by Jane Caro, an illustrious darling of the Left. From the ABC’s Q&A:
IT’S the world’s oldest profession. No, not prostitution — motherhood. But if social commentator and self-proclaimed feminist Jane Caro’s opinion is anything to go by, the two aren’t mutually exclusive — especially if you choose to stay at home.
Of course the leftist media is on-board with all of this. The only marriages they want to recognise are gay ones. I remember seeing a family on the news that had experienced a home invasion. The father, who provided the account, specifically told of his wife being tied up in a chair. The reporter immediately asked, “So how did you feel about seeing your partner tied up in a chair?”
The Greens (all of the same stock) go further in their attempt to confound the concept of marriage, by confounding gender and making the straight, the bent (the ‘other’). The 2013 survey page, which no longer appears, had a picture of Sarah Hanson-Young standing in a row of young people with a survey below it. Here is an excerpt from that survey:
[http://nationalyouthsurvey.com/]
The Greens
National Youth Survey 2013
Gender
Male
Female
Other
Do you identity as being:
Select 1
Lesbian or Gay
Transgender
Intersex
Bisexual
None of these
I’m not sure
What you have written is very sobering but so true.
I’ve lost count of the times I’ve had to insist on my proper title ‘Mrs’ and use of the word ‘husband’ for my husband and not the twee term ‘partner’. I’m sick to death of being made to feel like a freak when I am patently not one. I always enter ‘Wife and Mother’ when asked on a form for what I do. I happen to feel it is the most important job in the world to bring up youngsters to be decent, honest and with a sense of justice, knowing that they are loved and properly cared for.
I came back to this thread specifically to see if you had added anything else. Thank you. Annie.
Have the Cubans infiltrated our Unis yet? In this report, the FBI are certain that the Cuban secret service is extremely active in American universities.
It is really frustrating that in Victoria alone, we spend $500,000 a day, half a milion a day for a desalination plant which we never needed and are not using. We have mortgaged our grandchildren’s future. The total bill over a quarter century repayment is around $28,000,000,000. Similarly in Adelaide and Sydney. Not a (cheap) dam has been built in 50 years. We also built an $800,000,000 pipe line to take water South from the Goulburn to Sugarloaf, against the wishes of everyone in the path. It was only used once, to dump excess Eildon water into the Goulburn at the very height of the flood, making the flood much worse. Otherwise it has probably not been used.
Then in Victoria, I have read that an amazing 30% of our fresh water is using to generate electricity. So why not use the desalination plant to feed Yallourn. At the height of the drought, there was a real investigation into using sea water for power generation, but the cost of upgrading all the plant was considered too much. However everything is in place with the desalination plant next to the power plant in Gippsland. Yallourn and the desalination plant can feed each other, especially with free off peak or night time power which is otherwise dumped. So no real cost! This would free up rivers of Fresh water which could be sent North. We would get something for our money and the farmers would be able to increase crops massively, creating wealth in the country, exports and food independence.
There are plenty of other ideas, but while the Greens bang on about global warming, windmills and solar cells and crippling Western society, we are wasting huge opportunities. The farmland in Northern Victoria and the Riverina and South Australia could bloom. Just an idea for the weekend.
As a result of too much Hollywood eco loon influence we wave educated people that believe our current energy production is the equivalent of atmospheric processing plants as in the movie ‘Aliens’
If the eco loons sincerely believe earth is doomed and people (skeptics) won’t see sense then they should blast off with Richard Branson in search of LV426 and set up a ‘Shake n Bake’ colony, it’s the least they can do for us.
I am from Sweden but have a look at abc in Australia sometimes. Yesterday I made a couple of comments on the really stupid article “Should democracy be abandoned to respond to the climate crisis?” but they seemed to be censored. Is that actually happening in Australia on a website run by tax money ? I live in China at the moment and I am fighting the censoring here every day just to be able to read my email on google. I have to use a VPN to read my email. However, I know the government still read them as I can not reach YouTube despite of using a VPN. To get to YouTube I have to use first VPN and then TOR. So they are still behind. Be aware what might come if the left can rule. Just have a look at HongKong how democracy can be handled. Interesting will be what will happen there from now on to the coming election. Keep an eye.
So what is so damned dangerous mentioning to ABC ? I just send some facts to some of the comments because they were way off. Like saying 10 million was killed by Mao. That is not true, it was 120 million that died in the great famine, mostly in 1960 and 1961. It was stopped when the second man in charge happened to travel to Changsha, his place of birth, and suddenly understood what was going on. So he stopped the famine, but got Mao as his enemy and was ousted and killed soon after. How could he stop the famine ? easy, the food was collected and send to Russia to pay for nuclear technology. Mao wanted to be the communist world leader and needed the weapons. He never achieved it.
Next was a comment talking about the Atolls in the Pacific and sea water rise. Well, I was there last year. I actually also saw one of the information centers and visited one hour of info for the local citizens. I also spoke to them and they was not aware of any problem before the event ! On the contrary, sea level is ok what is causing problem is if a cyclon happen to pass. (Or hurricane in the NH). I would say that is a problem back home in Sweden too. But sea level, no. I was at Tuvalu, Kiribati, Tuamotos (French Polynesia) and Micronesia.
a recent survey found that 40% of the reporters at the ABC belong to or vote for the Greens. Most of the rest support the left wing of the Labor Party.
The other problem is the closed atmosphere of the main ABC, as they live in their own little world. Very much a product of the (prosperous) inner suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne. Whenever you see a jibe about latté sipping inner city men in black you can assume that the ABC is included.
There is another side to the ABC which deals with rural Australia and this is different, and you won’t hear it overseas. The rural lobby has been the reason why any conservative government hasn’t shut them down. Strangely the left wingers keep trying to eliminate this side of the broadcaster.
The inner city dwellers and their left wing numbers in the ALP is why Labor governments haven’t shut them down, although at times surely tempted. They are deterred also by the screams of The Friends of the ABC, and by the thought of the shock jocks of commercial radio having free range. (It is very easy to get an audience if you against everything the ABC says).
At some time the exasperation of a government will boil over and they will decide they don’t need the ABC. Once shut down their main media outlet (the ABC) won’t be able to scream hysterically about the “need for an independent voice”, and the annoying drone will cease. In the meantime don’t bother to listen to it, most australians don’t.
Sorry if it seems like I’m hogging these Unthreaded Posts by getting in early with long Comments, but I have this faint idea that people actually would like some information to balance some of the propaganda that is out there.
The talk of getting rid of the RET is still bubbling, and one aspect is killing off the subsidies.
So, let’s look at a real subsidy then, and a pretty big one at that, the subsidy in the rooftop solar power area. There are currently 1.2 Million rooftop solar installations, and the total Nameplate for all that is around 3200MW, and note here the huge numbers, something those who favour this like to proudly point at, when I can show that it isn’t really all that much. So with that Nameplate and the number of units, the average installation is 2.67KW.
Look at the chart at this link. (scroll down a little) Note the column detailing Solar Credits. That’s the subsidy given for each installation. The credits for the average 2.7KW unit is around $2200.
So, with 1.2 million installations, then those credits total up to $2.64 Billion. Now, the costs for those rooftop systems have come down over time, so that direct subsidy is probably up beyond $3 Billion.
That’s a direct subsidy, paid for by every taxpayer.
So then, 3200MW in total Nameplate. Huge number there eh!
The Capacity Factor (CF) for rooftop solar is 13%, and here I’m using the upper end of the scale, because in lower latitudes, it’s actually as low as 9%, but hey, I can use their own larger figures. Some people have even mentioned that my use of CF is a strawman argument, but hey, it’s the industry standard for power delivered across a full year, 24/7/365, and here, as I have said so many times, it’s not the Nameplate, but actual power being generated for consumption that is the most important thing here.
So, in effect, at that CF of 13%, then that’s the equivalent power delivery for a Nameplate of 416MW, averaged across that full year.
Now, while all of that power is being consumed, either by the residence itself, or being fed back to the grid, most of the power is being consumed by the actual residence which has the rooftop installation, and basically, that would be around 75% of that power being generated. So, across a full year, the amount being fed back to the grid comes in at around 104MW.
So, going back to the direct subsidy of that $3 Billion, that effectively means that is the cost for a 104MW power plant. (Wow! How cost effective is that then?)
Then there’s the FIT, although not a direct subsidy, it is still a subsidy. Some FIT’s being paid are as high as 44 cents per KWH, and on top of that, retailers are then adding a bonus of 3 cents per KWH on top of that, so some people are getting 47 cents per KWH for the power they feed back to the grid. It’s not free money, as all retailers recover all of that FIT by increasing the cost of power to ALL consumers. So, in effect, that FIT is a subsidy being paid by individual consumers, all of them, not just those in the Residential sector, but in the Commerce and Industry sectors as well, so all electrical power has a cost increase attached to it because of this FIT. That 47 cents per KWH equates to $470/MWH that the retailers have to pay for rooftop power being generated and returned to the grid. Compare that to the current cost for coal fired power which is now down around $20/MWH. Even if that FIT is lowered to the mooted 8 cents per KWH and with the added 3 cents from the retailers, that’s still $110/MWH, still more than five times the cost of coal fired power.
So then, that 104MW total Nameplate for actual power delivery back to the grid for an averaged year round supply. That $3 Billion power plant is not one plant at one location supplying a stable grid, easy to manage the one plant to be in perfect unison with the grid, it is now 1.2 MILLION tiny little plants spread across the grids everywhere, and how difficult is it to now manage 1.2 million added power plants, all tiny, all hopefully operating at absolute perfection with the grid they are supplying.
So now, can you see why that loose term, poles and wires, is being used as a large driver of increased costs. Poles and wires is the euphemism for the infrastructure required to maintain a perfection of supply to everyone, an exact 240 Volts at an exact 50Hz. Now, instead of a few plants sending the power downstream (for want of a better explanation) we now have an added 1.2 million of them to try and control, all of them supplying tiny amounts of power here and there across all the grids, no easy task to control all that, hence an immense addition to the infrastructure needed to actually control that, the poles and wires.
So here, you can see how rooftop solar has added considerably to the costs for that misleading term, poles and wires.
Back to that original subsidy of the $3 Billion then. Now when the installation goes up onto the roof, the installer charges the home owner the lower price, and the installing company then claims back the credits from the Government. Now, even I’m not so gullible to believe that each and every installing company is as pure as the driven snow, by not bumping up the cost ever so slightly, and then still claiming the full rebate. Why am I reminded here of Pink Batts?
Now perhaps you can see why you occasionally get cold calls from rooftop panel installers.
Subsidies are direct, they are indirect, and there are also hidden costs as well. (poles and wires)
All of this adds to the cost of electricity for everyone.
Keep in mind here that this is just for rooftop solar power, just one of many subsidies in the RET scheme.
Even if it is canned, we’ll still all be paying for it for a long time into the future.
Tony.
502
Excellent post TonyfromOz.
Australia must abolish this insane RET ASAP !!
200
A couple of points AS60038 specifies Australia’s nominal voltage as 230V +10% / -6% since 2000 – it’s no longer 240V even though 240V is allowable being 230 +6%.
Secondly your capacity factor isn’t an appropriate way to quantify Solar power because it fails to account for the reliability of the source. A better way is to use a baseload equivalent, the amount of baseload generating capacity that can be completely and permanently eliminated by solar. That is what is the maximum power that a solar system with storage can be relied upon to contribute 24 x 7 x 52. Essentially this is the shaded capacity of the panel which is about 20% of the end of life efficiency of the cell divided by hours in a day. For a 200 Watt panel and taking account of inversion, matching, and Copper Losses, that’s only a reliable (baseload equivalent) output of about 7 watts. Put another way, for every 200 Watt panel installed only 7 watts of coal could be switched off, mostly because cloudy days don’t provide much power, we still of course need to generate the same power on cloudy days. This of course only applies if 24 hours of storage was provided for solar power.
Expressed as a capacity factor (let’s call it the reliable capacity factor) that’s a miserable 3.5%.
Remember the aim is to replace coal with solar, not to suppliment it. Your use of capacity factor (a long term average) is only correct for a supplimentation role. It does not work for a replacement role which requires using the minimum short term average capacity. Your analysis therefore overstates the usefulness of Solar by about 4 times.
220
Oh dear. First TonyfromOz kicks the solar puppies and then bobl heads for the river with a burlap sack full of solar kittens and a large rock. Why can’t you guys just toe the Green / liberal / Progressive line and go back to living in caves and eating grass and slugs? The fruits of your labor belong to the elites and you should not have to be constantly “nudged” into compliance. You know you can’t be trusted to make all those difficult decisions. You know only those in the enlightened oligarchy can balance your selfish needs against the torture of our planet.
The politicos, bureaucrats, academics and power brokers will decide what modern comforts you are allowed to embrace. You know in your heart you are not smart enough to decide those things for yourselves. Our betters in the eco-aristocracy know the terrible havoc modern technology has on dear Mother Earth. They cry and gnash their capped teeth every time they’re forced to take those private jet flights (due to schedule conflicts.) They anguish over those lavish “fundraising” parties serving imported caviar, champagne and exotic fruits organically grown by indigenous persons using
stone agesustainable methods. They feelentitled to those percsthose “evil” rich people wouldn’t show up if they didn’t offer those luxuries. They must work with the rich and famous in order to get their message out. Those opulent government offices and multimillion dollar estates are burdens they must endure ashypocritical leechesambassadors for the cause.Once they
return us to feudalismsave Earth, mankind will return to livein medieval squalorthe simple lifestyle meant for us. Even though they would prefer they and their families live simply as well, they will continue to sacrifice their happiness by taking on the burden of being our kings and queens, lords and ladies as that’s the only way to protect Nature from humanity.Where’s your trust? You know they wouldn’t tell you that solar power will save the planet if it wasn’t true, would they?
</sarc>
160
What surprises me is that no one has mentioned this next little, umm, problem, before now.
Look at that link and see how many panels make up the average 2.6KW installation. That’s 11 panels. (on average)
So, with 1.2 million installations, here we have 13.2 million individual panels.
What’s going to happen starting five years from now, because some have been in for a while already, and for the next 25 years plus after that as all these panels reach their end of life.
That’s 13.2 million existing panels needing to be disposed of, plus the many more still going on roofs with more to come as well, until this fad wears off.
It’s not like they’re entirely safe either, or bio degradable.
That also will not be an altruistic thing, either, as disposal costs could be quite high, another cost down to the home owner.
I wonder if that gets a mention in the fine print at first flush of installation.
Tony.
150
Oh that’s easy, they make great photoframes with a little tarting up, and they are easilly adapted to become solar vege driers, to make our sundried tomatoes, at my place they may even do duty as a skylight, a glass top table or cabinet, a small greenhouse or even wimdows. I might even turn two of my first failures into a solar water heater. An aluminium frame with a tough piece of glass at the front has plenty of uses.
It’s good to be an engineer sometimes!
80
… except when the wife says “why are you keeping all that old stuff that doesn’t work anymore” and nags you to throw the good stuff away before you get around to using it.
110
Just tell her it’s to build storage for her shoes. 🙂
70
The solar cells reflect light in nice ways.
I’m surprised that no budding artist has taken to making some wall art with them.. or have they.?
Saw a mobile art using old CD’s once, a multi colour strobe shone there upon… Very pretty !
40
Tony,
You put in a heroic effort on this. Your archives full of this kind of data must be a national treasure by now. It’s tragic that the real problem with renewable energy isn’t recognized except by dedicated guys like you. I hope someday the truth sinks in, not only in Oz but around the world.
But I’m left wondering when you have time to sleep. Or do you? 😉
150
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Im weeks away from a government grant for a 110kw system!!!!
12
(This is Part 2 of the earlier Comment, and basically about the same subject, but to differentiate on from the other, I’ve made this a separate Comment.)
Look, I know I harp on about this, but if the real picture isn’t told, then people will just believe what is written about it, that rooftop solar power is making some sort of impact. It may be, but that impact is only tiny, and at what cost. (both in reality and also in dollar terms)
All these installations supply the homes they are fitted to, and they also supply small amounts of power back to the grids, but that’s spread across all of Australia, so it’s virtually just minute amounts of power really, so let me show you that.
The average yearly power being consumed across Australia is 235TWH.
Rooftop solar has a Nameplate of 3200MW, and at a (an actual, not claimed) Capacity Factor of 13%, then the total power delivered by all these rooftop installations is 3.65TWH, consumed by the homes with them, and also fed back to the grid. That’s only 1.55% of all Australian power generation. Because most of that total is being consumed by the homes, only a very small part of it is being fed back to the grids, and because that is spread across all Australia, then it will have virtually no impact on whether or not smaller power plants are being called upon to top up the grid to actually cover the consumption.
It has NO impact at all on coal fired power generation, and I can’t stress that enough ….. NO IMPACT on coal fired power. Because nearly all of the coal fired units are larger than 250MW, and Bayswater units alone are 660MW, then just because there is tiny amounts of rooftop power coming on to the grid, they will not shut down any of those coal fired units, so the only impact, if there is any at all will be that grid controllers may not call onto line perhaps one smaller unit to top up the grid. The power is needed in specific areas, so smaller units are called onto line to cover the demand in that area, while that rooftop solar power is spread across all Australia. See the point here.
That covers power delivery, so now look at the cost. I mentioned in the earlier Comment that the subsidy alone is around $3 Billion, but what of the total cost. This is, in effect a crowd funded power plant, and while it has a Nameplate of that 3200MW, in actuality, it’s just a 420MW plant at that 13% CF.
So then, look again at the chart at the link in that first comment, and the cost for the (average) 2.6KW system is around $7350. (the Typical Installed Price column) So, if there are 1.2 Million installations, then the total cost comes in at $8.82 Billion. Costs have come down (pretty dramatically over the years) so that real price could be higher than $10 to $12 Billion, but even at the current price of $8.8 Billion, that’s horrendously expensive for what is only in effect a 412MW Power plant. Now while I mentioned it’s a crowd funded power plant, or 1.2 million of them anyway, that cost is being paid for by every electricity consumer, via the FIT, which has to be attractive enough to make people want to buy them in the first place, so they are being paid for by electricity consumers, and the cost of electricity is being bumped up to cover that cost, to pay those installations off.
Electricity prices have risen by quite large amounts in recent years, so let’s apply some perspective here. All those coal fired plants have now been in place for many decades. They still supply similar amounts of power that they did when they were new, so there’s been no change in what they deliver, and how they deliver it. The price of electricity has only risen since all these renewables started to come into vogue. Think about that for a minute. If there’s been virtually no change in coal fired power then it only stands to reason that renewables have caused this price rise, in more ways than one.
And lastly, for some perspective, the total power delivered by 1.2 million rooftop solar installations across a whole year is delivered by Bayswater in 76 days.
Tony.
331
Also solar panels can only supply useable power for just 6 hours a day! Where is the power coming from for the other 18 hours? And then there needs to be clear skies during that 6 hours. There are now over 100,000 solar panels installed on farms around Pembrokeshire, South West Wales, and sunshine levels are currently very low due to all the crap in the air. It looks like the smog I used to see in London years ago. Blowed if I know where it’s coming from. Maybe the Iceland volcano? Doubt they will ever tell us. By the way, we are under a high pressure system and none of the wind turbines are turning. 🙂
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Look down a little ways an see my notes, composed “concurrently” on much the same topic.
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re:
From the parliamentary library{
“Extent of price increases
In real terms—that is, taking into account the general increase in prices across all goods and services—prices for households increased on average by 72% for electricity and 54% for gas in the 10 years to June 2013.
Real electricity price increases for manufacturing businesses over the same period have been of a similar magnitude (60%). For gas, prices for manufacturing businesses have risen to a lesser extent (29%) (Figure 1).
The increase in real prices after June 2012 of around 14% for household electricity and 13% for household gas is associated with the implementation of a carbon price from July 2013.
The pattern of price increases over the 10 years to June 2013 has differed across states and territories. In real terms, the rate of increase for electricity has been 30% in Perth, 41% in Adelaide, 73% in Brisbane and 107% in Sydney. For those cities connected to natural gas networks, household gas price increases over the 10 years to June 2013 have ranged from 40% in Sydney to 78% in Perth.”
The “truth” as Jo proscribes!
024
Silly Filly,
You forgot to mention the individual State based Socialist induced habit of selling off utilities to cook the books for each successive election.
Now poles and wires, and retailers are privatised with their profits going into dividends for share holders while the infrastructure ie new poles and wires, is paid for by price increases to the consumer instead of the profits that the consumer provides in the first place – double whammy to the consumer.
Don’t try to fudge the figures it’s in black and white in the IPART pricing recommendations since Labor started selling off the furniture .- have a look it was in all the papers.
And that’s in the last ten years in NSW alone.
On top of that in 2010 the Labor government locked in the 60 cents per kw payment to solar households with it’s solar panel deal.
Prior to that householders paid 18 cents per kw that’s now risen to 34 cents per kw in 4 years. And not to mention the extravagant Labor purchase subsidies of around $7,000 per solar household (conservatively based on Tony from Oz 11 panels per solar home)to get them into the scheme in the first place – say that’s about 8.4 billion dollars just for that.
It all exists on grants and subsidiesa from the tax payer and all calculated to be embraced by a poulation driven by fear of global warming, designed to artificially drive up the cost of coal fired energy and thereby make it appear that solar energy is not an inefficient and expensive substitute.
The fact is that inefficient and expensive inventions don’t surviuve and solar and wind will go the way of the electric car once the tax payer stops funding them.
Same thing happened when the Cold War ended and the major industries that were funded by fear folded or diversified to survive.
Just like the United Nations did from Fear of Nuclear Conflict to Fear of Climate Change.
Just how do you think the all inkblotters and sucubus (sucubus is plural for sucubus plural cos it’s a greek word)kept their well paid jobs in the UN once the Cold War ended and it wasn’t needed anymore…. there was the War Against the Hole in the Ozone Layer (still there by the way and causing no great discomfort) then Sea Level Rise… then Global Warming… then Climate Change… and a new enemy CO2 and the Army of Climate Deniers who must be killed or the Earth will die…
For f#ck sake, Silly Filly, give me a break, this is sme really f#cked up sh#t right there.
You are just another dupe.
ps. the pen-name you selected really is a Freudian thing – you do know that don’t you.
250
Yeah.
Had some 404A refrigerant used to repair a coolroom last year. Was $110/kg
Had another coolroom repaired this week. 404A charged at $77/kg. Fridgey says gas price has dropped since CO2 tax was scrapped.
50
Tony, I think you are right with your numbers about the very tiny amount of power being fed back into the grid by the rooftop solar but having said that, I am wondering how the FIT for this miniscule amount (~0.4% of total demand) can possibly have much affect on the average price of electricity. I don’t know how many installations get the 44 cents you mention as that went a long while back. Most now I think, get somewhere around the 6 to 8 cent mark and that was a (fair) price based on a ‘cost avoided’ model commissioned by the QCA in your State. So in reality the average FIT for the installed base would be a lot less than 44 cents. Do you have those figures to work from also?
As you point out, this tiny solar base has no affect on the coal fired generation but it does cut into the lucrative peaking market substantially (early afternoon)and this is where the spot prices are highest so its not competing with the 2 cent coal fired and we often pay a lot more than 2 cents for the peak gas fired (which BTW had its own subsidy scheme to mandate a 15% market share I think it was in Qld.) The retailers in your State don’t actually pay anything for the FIT as you suggested. The way it works (or doesn’t work) in Qld is that the Network folk fork out for the FIT and that gets ‘passed through’ (supposedly no cream on top of that) to the end users via the retailer. Your Gov is looking to make the retailers pay any FIT cost just like they pay wholesale costs to the main suppliers.
Yes the Gov did mandate this whole RET thing but the credits are not paid directly from the Gov by the taxpayers as you describe – it is more indirect. Mostly the installers pay the customer for the credits (hence the ‘discounted price’) and then the installers are free to trade those credits however they wish. Credits for the panels were only available for the first 1.5kW (nameplate)of any installation and the price varied depending on the site (available insolation or effectively CF) The credits were initially ‘valued’ at something like $50 which fell to $40 but the official clearing house for these got a huge stockpile quite quickly and the ‘on-the-street’ price for them now is about $26 or less. I think they still use the $40 figure tho when calculating the ‘cost’ of the RET on electricity pricing which is a little unrealistic. Solar hot water heaters were eligible for earning RETs as well and have exactly the same affect on electricity pricing but we don’t seem to get too concerned about that. (I think that they actually have a more complex effect on the price as solar hot water heaters mean less night off peak load for the coal stations)Do you know the figures for the installed base of hot water heaters?
I can’t see too how this tiny 104MW feed across the whole Australia wide network puts a significant demand and cost on the poles and wires. That is probably a bit of a furphy. One of the later reports I read stated that the average household air conditioner equated to a ‘subsidy’ of $350 pa. while the average solar electric install ranged between $0 to $120 pa. (interestingly based on whether it faced West or North with the West facing providing more bias to the late afternoon). That is definitely a ‘poles and wires’ issue.
As you point out that most of the solar gets used by the owner then isn’t the cost of power generated more aptly compared with the retail cost that the owner is avoiding rather than the wholesale cost of coal fired generation? So at about $1 per nameplate Watt (no subsidies just cheap Chinese panels and inverter)making about 1.1kWh pa the owner might save about 27 cents or so per Watt over the year So after 4 years the owner then has some ‘cheap’ electricity. The motivation (even without RETs and FITs) would seem to be similar to having a solar hot water heater and just provides some incremental saving to the owner.
I think that with better load management (smart metering etc) we could definitely have a market and tariff for intermittent power which one would expect to pay less for. I think electric vehicles (essentially coal fired vehicles)and their batteries could in time be an ideal dial-in load, not just to soak up intermittent supplies but provide a significant and controllable off peak load for the coal stations. Why use imported oil when we could power our (imported?) cars with local coal fired electricity? When you think about it, all of our power sources are ‘intermittent’ in a way and we make them usable with suitable ‘smoothing’ or matching the load to them. A diesel generator only generates power 25% of the time (ie a 4 stroke cycle) but we manage to ‘smooth’ that out with the invention of a flywheel. Even your often praised grid electricity fluctuates wildly 50 times per second but we still manage to use that and are happy to pay for it. It is just a matter of time before we start to get better and more inventive at smoothing over the longer intervals. At least the ‘smooth’ dc grid supply never won out over the ac despite the electrocuted elephants.
cheers
35
Hi Tony,
I read somewhere recently that an average-sized wind tower, if the electricity generated were spread out evenly over a year, would be only enough to continuously run a 3000 watt water kettle. Thus, one could imagine a kettle plugged into a wind tower, and devise a simple capacity measure as 1 wind tower = 1 kettle. Sad to say, I cannot reliably do the sums to verify. Is this sensible?
50
We movef here 8 years ago. I kept my quarterly power bills. The consumption part – separate from the lump sum charges – has increased at quite close to 10% per annum. That is away, way above cpi, inflation, whatever. The only other commodity with a similar increase is domestic water supply, similar increase.
Given that people say that alt eng produces only a few % of national electricity, it is a pretty bloody expensive luxury. One I did not seek, one I was never asked about whether I wanted it.
20
As the Pythons once said ….. and now for something completely different.
So then, what is it with some young men and boats?
You all no doubt remember Bass and Flinders from your early days in Primary School and learning about the early explorers. What you never really learned as a young child though, was that these two men, when they did all this exploring were still only youngsters themselves, well relatively speaking anyway.
There is some talk that George Bass joined the Royal Navy at the age of 14 as an apprentice surgeon, but the real truth is probably that he did not join the Navy until he was 23, now as a fully trained surgeon. At that age of 14 it is true that he actually started his medical career, and at the age of 18 he was accepted as a full surgeon, and later he then joined the Royal Navy.
Matthew Flinders did join the Navy at the age of 15. On his first trip to Australia, in 1795, at the age of 20, he was a Midshipman aboard HMS Reliance, and it was here he first met George Bass, the ships surgeon, and Bass was 3 years older than he was.
Bass was a keen sailor, and had asked for permission to bring along his small boat he used for sailing, and it was lashed aboard Reliance.
When they arrived at Sydney Cove, and dropped off the new Governor, John Hunter to replace Arthur Phillip, Bass asked his new friend if he would like to join him sailing his small boat. The two of them, with another, then set off to have a sail.
George Bass was 24 and Matthew Flinders was 21.
Not just tooling around the Harbour mind you, because this is only 1795 remember, when there was only Sydney Cove, some close by smaller settlements, and the secondary settlement of Norfolk Island, well off to the North east.
No, they sailed out of Sydney Heads into the open ocean and turned South, and that first trip was to Botany Bay, and up the Georges River as far as what was Banks Town. (two words here, and now the one word, named for James Cook’s Botanist Joseph Banks)
The second trip, they went even further, down as far as what is now the Illawarra, discovering what is now Port Hacking.
That small boat, affectionately called Tom Thumb was only 8 feet long.
Think about that for a minute. The room you’re probably reading this in is probably bigger than that. The front board had a hole through it where they put a small pole and hoisted a small square sail.
Out the Sydney Heads and into the open Pacific Ocean, and then what amounted to well more than perhaps a couple of hundred miles, there and back, in the open sea, in an 8 foot boat.
The new Governor, John Hunter was pretty impressed with this, well, who wouldn’t be really.
So he allowed George Bass to have a bigger boat and a crew of 6 to explore even further. A surgeon mind you, and Matthew had his Naval duties to attend to so, George went off on his own with his 6 crew.
In a whaleboat with a small sail, now 16 feet long. George set off South to Cape Howe, the South Eastern tip of Australia. He then just kept going, and ended up at Western Port Bay, nearly to the entrance of Port Phillip Bay. He then went back to Sydney, now firm in his belief that there was a strait in this area, which would considerably shorten the trip to Sydney Cove, when those early ships had to sail around Van Diemens Land (now Tasmania) and then back North to get to Sydney.
Again, Hunter wanted this checked out thoroughly, so he saw that they were given the newly constructed Norfolk for this voyage of discovery in 1798. The Norfolk was a heavy lumbering boat rigged as a sloop, and built at Norfolk Island by convicts from the famed Norfolk Pines. It weighed in at around 25 tons, still virtually just a heavy yacht really. Flinders was the full Naval officer, and Bass still just a surgeon, so Flinders was given Command.
Flinders was now 24, and Bass, 27.
The circumnavigated and mapped Van Diemens Land, proving for certain that there was indeed that body of water to the North, now forever known as Bass Strait.
Now, with their careers enhanced by what they had done, these two young men had assured futures.
Bass returned to England and after marrying, he returned to Australia in 1801 without his wife, in his own private ship, Venus.
He set out from Sydney Cove in Venus in 1803 to sail for South America, and was never seen again. He was 32.
Matthew Flinders had a much celebrated career, as a navigator, and one of our most famous early Naval explorers. He sailed back to England in the 29 ton Schooner Cumberland, but was arrested by the French and held for six and a half years at what is now Mauritius. Whilst detained he wrote his celebrated book in which he canvassed the naming of this vast South Land as Australia, although he was probably not the first, as it was a variation of the name Terra Australis, but he was the first to actively pursue its use as the name for our Continent.
Back in England and now in poor health because of his detention, he eventually died in 1814. His book was finally published, barely weeks after he died.
Matthew Flinders was 40.
Australia was finally adopted as the name of our Country in 1901.
We have a lot to be thankful for these young men in boats, an 8 foot open boat at that.
Tony.
290
Nice read, Tony. 🙂
110
Hi tony,
Wow, all looks interesting.
In addressing the economics of Solar Rooftop and then moving to Bass and Flinders round Australia trip you’ve given a must read.
Hang while I go get a drink and then get stuck into it.
Both. The drink and the posts.
KK
🙂
100
Sorry Keith, I didn’t mention Matthew’s voyage of discovery around Australia, just his early days with his good mate George.
You can imagine someone going offshore for some fishing in a well planned trip, to a place well known, with an EPIRB, radio back to onshore, and all the facilities.
These guys just went where no man had ever been before, in what amounted to tiny little boats, and they did their own mapping as well, and hunted and gathered their own food along the way, with zero contact with ‘home’ until they sailed back into Sydney Cove.
It never ceases to amaze me, that they just jumped into something a little bigger than a bathtub, and just tooled off into the distance.
Tony.
190
It gives meaning to the phrase, wooden ships and iron men, doesn’t it?
Today we demand GPS before we’ll start the car to go to the corner grocery.
60
And in George Town, Tasmania, you can visit the Bass and Flinders Centre and see a full scale replica of the Norfolk, which itself has sailed around Van Diemen’s Land. There are many artifacts in the centre, including a Tom Thumb. George and Matthew are there as well, dressed in their Royal Navy regalia. Some com on down and have a look. You can visit the Fairy Penquins too.
90
Old men and boats a timline:
1486 Diaz rounds Cape of Good Hope.
1497 Vasco da Gama sails to India via the Cape.
1512 Portuguese discover the Moluccas.
1520 Magellan enters the Pacific.
1567 Alvarez discovers the Solomon Islands.
1595 Cornelius Houtman pilots Dutch ships to the East Indies.
1598 Dutch established at Java.
1606 Quiros discovers the New Hebrides.
Discovery of Torres Strait.
The DUYFKEN in the Gulf of Carpentaria.
1611 Brouwer’s new route to the East.
1616 Dirk Hartog on the Western Australian coast.
1622 English ship TRIAL wrecked off the west coast.
1627 Nuytsland discovered.
1636 Van Diemen Governor of Dutch East Indies.
1642 Tasman discovers Van Diemen’s Land and New Zealand.
1644 Tasman in the Gulf of Carpentaria.
1688 Dampier in the CYGNET in Australian waters.
1699 Dampier in the ROEBUCK in Shark’s Bay.
1768 Cook’s ENDEAVOUR voyage.
1770 Cook’s discovery of New South Wales.
1772 Cook’s RESOLUTION voyage.
1779 Banks suggests founding a convict settlement at Botany Bay.
1782 End of the American War of Independence.
1783 Matra’s plan of colonization in New South Wales.
1785 Sir George Young’s plan.
1786 Determination to found a settlement at Botany Bay.
1788 Foundation of Sydney.
85
We’d have seen a lot more boats near Australia during the 1700’s if Labor had been in power. 🙂
<Sorry, could not resist>
220
You forgot the Vikings.
10
‘Twas on the Good Ship Venus
by Gosh you should have seen us
I have heard that the likely cause of Mathew Flinders’ ill health was chronic urinary tract infections consequent on contracting the clap in Tahiti on his voyage with Bligh ca 1790.
60
Some fitting Doggeral for the Demented.(wot I writed earlier.)
40
I love doggerel…I can remember it far more easily than poetry I regret to say!
10
Well done Swans.. 2 to go. 🙂
70
And here I thought we had absolutely nothing in common; wonders never cease!
78
Just been reading about the biggest dinosaur ever:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/dreadnoughtus-may-be-the-biggest-dinosaur-ever-1.2755590
Need to know if this beastie was warm or cold blooded. If cold blooded it must have lived in a VERY WARM CLIMATE to grow so big on just veggies. Think about that. 🙂
100
Most actual dinosaurs are extinct. But scientific dinosaurs still reign supreme in this blog. Something to think about?
025
Yet another vacuous post. Scientific Dinosaurs that can do math will be correct, while fillies that can’t will still be wrong. This is not a beauty contest or some trendy keeping up with the joneses ego fest, this is just about truth.
The math says global warming can’t be worse than 1.5 degrees C per doubling and mankinds contribution is less than half that (0.7 Deg per doubling or less) when you learn some math then you can attempt to refute that.
On the moral front it’s hard for you to take the high ground when your policies manage to kill tens of thousands a year, you advocate burning carbohydrates that could feed the worlds hungry, you advocate diverting billions from the invention and production of lifesaving medicines, and you advocate keeping half the worlds population poor and dying by refusing them the same cheap energy you benefit from.
We scientific dinosaurs who can manage a bit of math say that spending a quarter of a quadrillion dollars to prevent 1 degree temp rise is probably money wasted.
Do you feel all morally warm and fuzzy now silly?
240
The math and satellite data says that the anthropogenic influence is positive and the natural influence is negative( baseline 1950). Proof positive that GHG’s are the main forcings on temperature. There was a Jo article earlier about carbon combustion causing death in the home, you want to transfer the problem, not resolve it.
023
The article in question was about health issues related to particulate matter released into the air inside dwellings from open hearths and stoves burning wood, coal, dung etc. and had nothing to do with “carbon combustion causing death” unless you are referring to carbon monoxide poisoning. You should read it again:
Up to 4 million die from indoor air pollution annually (they need cheap coal-fired electricity!)
130
[snip] the new science, wood and coal are not made of carbon, burning them is not combustion, take a nobel prize [snip]
[language and ad homs! – Mod]
021
You are the only one who brought up “carbon combustion” here. It’s not in the post or the article. The rest of us were talking about burning coal or biomass indoors. Natural gas or LP gas are also “carbon combustion” and both are used safely and effectively for cooking. You need to work on your reading comprehension ’cause I think my champagne molly’s reading skills are a bit higher than yours.
90
Poor SF has been on the mouldy hay again 🙂
Is even more incoherent than usual.
100
No, the alarmista interpretation after “adjustment” is that humans have caused the climate to change.
1. The climate hasn’t changed, probably not at all during your life time.
2. Most of the so-called warming before 1979 can be placed as either data adjustment or as a natural and wholly beneficial climb out of a period called the Little Ice Age. We are still actually only just above the coldest period of the whole Holocene, not even up near the beneficial temperatures of the Medieval period.
Another degree or so would be nearly 100% beneficial to the whole world because it would happen in colder areas, Extra CO2 is also only beneficial to the world, it helps grow that mouldy hay you have obviously been eating.
3. There is absolutely no proof that GHGs cause any warming. Point us to the paper that proves this, models not included.
Your random spews of mule braying are becoming more and more “non-science”, and more and more incoherent. (Its funny to watch, sorry! 😉 )
It is obvious that you have fallen for the whole global warming scam, and that your tiny donkey brain is thoroughly brain-washed with irrelevant and incorrect junk, leaving it unable to think a rational or a coherent thought.
90
Wheres YOUr math filly, I dont see one number in that post. Here’s 2 simple problems for you
If C x lm(400ppm/270ppm)is 0.8 C then what is it for a doubling silly, go on, do tell us?
If GHGs from nothing causes 33 degrees warming from all causes including feedback, and GHGs (CO2) are absorbing 86% of available energy in their stopband then what is the maximum warming that trapping the additional 15% of energy by CO2 could do? Now consider experts say only 10 degrees of total atmospheric warming is caused by GHGs, what warming figure do you get then filly?
C’mon it’s simple math, no calculus even, hardest thing you need to do is press the ln button on your calculator….
[ for those interested because I know filly isn’t,
the first problem gives the historical warming rate since 1850, and works out to about 1.3 C per doubling total, and 0.7 degrees per doubling human caused, because the ipcc attributes just half warming to man.
The second problem compares Total atmospheric warming of 33 degrees, and the degree to which the CO2 stopband is opaque (85%) once the stopband is 100% opaque, CO2 can’t absorb any more energy, because there is none left to absorb. The answers are
5.8 deg C for a totally CO2 atmosphere or about 0.5 deg per doubling if CO2 controls all warming and using the scientists own 10 deg of greenhouse related warming it’s about 2 deg C warmer for a 100% CO2 atmosphere or about 0.2 degrees per doubling.
0.7 deg per doubling, 0.2 deg per doubling hardly seems a problem to me?
The power of mathematics silly, care to refute my calcs (math required)?
100
To a primary school student like you, even a 15 year old would seem a dinosaur.
100
“But scientific dinosaurs still reign supreme in this blog.”
I assume you mean those people bought up with a proper scientific education.
Rather than the beginners junk science you are currently failing at in junior high.
90
See, even I can be generous about your scientific ability. 🙂
I just upgraded you to junior high. 🙂
You will thank me for the challenge, some day.
60
I’d love to meet you, it might be that your not as scientifically moronic as you profess(but I doubt it). At least we have the Swans in common (still holding the original ticket for the first home game).
011
Poor munted mule,
Do you work at uni doing research related to GCMs?
Are you a member of the AGU?
You are but a child-mind to be smiled at and given vague encouragement and a bit of mind teasing so you will stick around to give us a laugh. 🙂
50
‘you’re not’
50
I cannot see anywhere where I profess to being sci-mor.
Are you a much munted mule, yet again, after the game?
Its that mouldy hay they feed you…… fermentation and all that !!
But it does help you see yourself as you are, even if you do project your inadequacies onto others.
40
You spoilt it there young equine!
Regards, Annie, Old Dinosaur .
00
Re the dinosaur article posted by Richard111.
They have guestimated that this mega beast weighed in at about 59 thousand kgs and was a herbivore that likely spent much of its life eating massive quantities of plants to maintain its enormous body size and this was supposedly 77 millions years ago.
Does this not speak to the fact that the world back then was much warmer than today and that CO2 levels way back then were in the 1,000’s of parts per million which would have been required so that plants could grow in humongous quantities to feed beast of this size?
So really global warming back then was very beneficial for beasts of this size to be able to dominate and flourish in their environments.
And the measly increase today of about 100 ppm of CO2 to the current 400 ppm is supposed to be detrimental to our environment and the end of our world is at hand because of this.
Un-believable!!!
130
I want to revisit Jo’s post last week regarding New Scientist’s favourable report on a proposal to apportion blame for weather events on man-made global warming.
Hopefully that scheme will start soon.
It won’t take them long to realise their folly.
Warmists berate western governments for failing to impose draconian carbon-based energy restrictions.
Australians are berated by warmists claiming that we are behind so many countries who run emission trading schemes or such like.
With recent years showing no increase in global surface temperature, fewer hurricanes/cyclones and with droughts and floods within historical range values, I look forward to being reminded that any day’s very average weather is somehow the result of humankind’s callous interference with climate.
If they only wish to apportion blame to “extreme” weather events, they will remove themselves from the scene during normal-range weather conditions. That will give us all a rest from being accused of future killing of our great-grandchildren’s children.
Perhaps they can console themselves with a concocted “assurance” that the few flimsy ETS/carbon tax schemes operating have already been incredibly successful and swept away most of the climatic threats causing their stress.
100
I made a “brief” comment in response to a disturbing post by my sister on Facebook where she asked for recommendations on Brand X and Brand W PV solar panels. After a break, I converted my comment into a blog post.
Read what’s behind the ellipses by following the link.
150
Nice link.
Have always said that the money wasted on Roof Top Solar should have been funneled directly to CSIRO for specific research into “Renewables”.
A far more beneficent use of our money.
KK
80
Very nicely said. That’s a keeper.
50
Bernd,
nice piece.
Tony.
60
Nice one Bernd. Has anyone got an Energy budget for production of Solar PV panels, to quantify that lifetime energy cost vs. production, to educate anyone tending to warmism?
40
That information just in from Watts.
30
Yes, lifetime production from a solar panel is about 120% of the energy that went into making it, so only 20% of the energy made is “Free”
40
It’s only part of the dust-to-dust cycle energy.
There’s energy required for disposal; including the crushing of glass, silicon, etc and the extraction of the traces of (toxic) heavy metals which make the PV cells work in the first place.
30
Premature posting again…
One must also note that the “renewable” means have a shorter life than the traditional generators; between 20% and 50% of that of e.g. nuclear power stations. So comaprisons must take that into account.
30
I have noticed on Facebook recently that the green carpetbaggers are running posts on the proposed removal of the RET. Showing black and white pictures of dinosaurs in suits and warning about the removal of the RET.
10
Bernd
A well crafted piece.
Must get another drink and then get to it.
Politics is making me sad.
KK
🙁
50
Next month, we’re standing up to those blocking action on climate change.
Pacific Climate Warriors will journey to Australia, where we will use traditional canoes to peacefully lay down a challenge to the fossil fuel industry.
On October 17 the canoes will serve as a symbol of our threatened cultures, and will lead a flotilla in the world’s largest coal port – Newcastle.
This is a huge undertaking. Building and transporting canoes and at least 30 Pacific Warriors all costs a lot. We can’t do it without you!
Every dollar donated goes straight to the costs of shipping the canoes, and the journey for the warriors to Australia.
The more we raise, the bigger impact we can have!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/stand-up-for-the-pacific
. . .
So, there will be no use of fossil fuels used during transportation?
Anyone flying to Australia?
80
You have reminded us once again that ITS A BIG BIG BUSINESS with many heads.
KK
40
The threatened culture of Climate Warriors.
Not all cultures are worth preserving. Consider tinea and ISIS.
What I find astounding is the tolerance for people who want to preserve human cultures for their personal satisfaction; never having lived as part of the culture that they seek to preserve. To compel/condemn others to a culture that doesn’t offer freedom, education, modern health care, … and worst of all; limiting the scope for the individuals to be at their best in the modern world.
Some stuff is better left in the museums of ethnology.
80
My father had tinnea after being in New Guinea.
His hands and feet would periodically just peel large pieces of skin.
KK
20
If you are going to protest about the use of coal …
Will they be staying in a hotel/motel with energy powered by coal, built of steel & cement?
Will they use steel containers to transport their ‘traditional canoes’
… on a fossil fuel powered boat.
When they travel to give their talks. Fossil fuelled?
The list is endless.
The protest pointless.
After the Ship of Fools, we have a Flotilla of Fools.
110
“Every morning, we wake up and the ocean is there, surrounding our island. But now the ocean, driven by climate change is creeping ever closer. Unless something changes, many of our Pacific Islands face losing everything to sea level rise. For 20 years we’ve asked world leaders to take action to stop polluting the atmosphere. We cannot wait longer. Now, warriors of the Pacific are rising peacefully to protect the Pacific Islands from climate change.
Our message: We are not drowning. We are fighting.”
Fighting without any help from the coal fired profit moguls and languishing in the oily detritus of profiteers who refuse to compensate for their environmental damage, that “incidental cost” not borne by shareholders and returned as their profit!
030
Codswallop SF.
140
PLEASE SEND MONEY.. so we can build more airports !
You really should keep up to date with reality, boncus burro…
Pacific Islands have been shown to be expanding in area. and in places like Tuvalu there is absolutely no sign of any sea level rise.!
Again you have been sucked in, yet again, by the scammers of the AGW agenda. Gullible little donkey !!
210
Add to that:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/07/31/remember-the-threat-of-flooded-atolls-and-climate-refugees-due-to-sea-level-rise-never-mind/
“Codswallop”? Typical of the terms we colonials never hear since the late dustup of 1776. We had to come up with our own term of “Dumbass”. Not so much an exercise of the tongue, but right to the point.
110
Sea levels have been in decline for about a decade. Here is some data from Hawaii.
80
You are so mathematically inept filly, please do tell, how much energy will it take to make the oceans that much warmer and where is it going to come from?
This is like saying the west antarctic shelf is melting from greenhouse warming when greenhouse warming produces less that 1/20th of the energy necessary to do that.
Filly, to assert something like that, you have to prove that the GHG energy imbalance of 0.6 W per square meter is capable of meeting the energy needs of the effect you ascribe to it. Otherwise you are just spouting empty rhetoric.
100
The only problem that Pacific islands have is erosion. Erosion caused particularly by clearing of mangroves.
It is not sea level rise. That’s just nonsense. These people simply do not know how to manage their land.
00
News in science
Antarctic sea level rising faster than global rate
Date: August 31, 2014
Source:
University of Southampton
Summary:
A new study of satellite data from the last 19 years reveals that fresh water from melting glaciers has caused the sea level around the coast of Antarctica to rise by 2cm more than the global average of 6cm. Researchers detected the rapid rise in sea-level by studying satellite scans of a region that spans more than a million square kilometers. The melting of the Antarctic ice sheet and the thinning of floating ice shelves has contributed an excess of around 350 gigatonnes of freshwater to the surrounding ocean.
016
2cm? Panic! Gasp! We’ll all drown!
Remind me; how much do water levels vary with tidal races?
100
Well seeing its only rising naturally at a 0.65mm/year at Fort Denison, just like it has been since they started measuring.
a silly little child like you needn’t be worried too much.
Unless you want to worry, of course..
If so… then PANIC, by all means !!
Or just chuck another tanty, to amuse us. 🙂
And the Antarctic ice sheet is melting? Where? and at what temperature.?
110
So, a little over 2,200 years ago a Greek guy named Archimedes postulated that water, absent another force, would seek its own level. No one has proven him wrong in the intervening millennia and almost everything we have ever built that is level owes him for that discovery. That means that if the sea level is higher only at Antarctica you have only the following causes to blame:
—
Wind driven water is piling up against Antarctica. Just like blowing on the surface of your tea makes the level higher on the other side.
—
Upwelling. Significant flow from undersea pushes the level up locally. A fountain jet barely running under the surface of a pond is an example of this. Not likely in Antarctica since the much colder air cools the ocean surface and that cold water sinks.
—
The shore is sinking or settling. This is most likely since the outer shell of our planet is floating on a global ocean of molten rock and is constantly moving. Bonus fact, Antarctica’s tectonic plate sinks under the places it has more ice on it due to the additional weight.
Archimedes again, ice floating in water, when fully melted, will actually lower the level of the “container” it is in because a floating body displaces its equivalent weight in the liquid it’s floating in. Water levels will actually be lower as ice has a larger volume than the equivalent mass of water due to the way its molecules solidify. The rest of the world has known this for almost 23 centuries… you should read more.
182
Pour more water in(from any other external source like land ice) and your analogy is pure BS. BTW, saw your commenting on steve goddard’s blog the other day, did you notice his graph of the rise in Australian minimum temperatures since 1910.
014
Sooooo, when you take a bath (if you do) does the infill reach the other end of the tub??
Dumbass.
PS: Link please, as 97% of Goddard’s Oz graphs show no warming, or BOM cooking the books.
90
He started by noticing some contradictory problems with the temp records and temp anomalies (including your minimum temp anomaly rise) and wondered what was causing them. Then a couple of posts using GHCN Australian data showing a decrease in days above 100ºF (37.78ºC) as well as an historic heat wave in 1896. Hmmm… none of that showing anything that could cause that out-of-character rise… except for UHI which he noted directly above the min anomaly graph you cite. (See Some Progress With Australia) I didn’t see that part mentioned in your comment… I wonder why. We’ll continue with a synopsis of the Australian data outlined on Stephen Goddard’s Real Science blog.
He did a post showing how GHCN was using very little Australian data prior to ~1957 and by starting there has created an artificial warming trend that doesn’t hold up if you use all the data available: Bathurst Maximum Temperature Since The 1850s
Then shows the Berkeley Earth temperature archive showing little or no warming in Oz from 1860 and that GHCN has even cooked the post 1957 Australian data they do have by a half degree or so: Major Monkey Business In Australia
Hmmm… neither of those show a real warming trend so let’s keep looking. I’m not going to put all the links here but if you re-read all his Oz posts starting September 1st you would see he’s also shown:
—NASA cooking the data for Bathurst hiding a 1.3ºC decline from 1910 to 1983 by creating a 0.3ºC rise.
—Found one of your warming trends in Narrogin, WA… until you look at the station which is now sited in a median strip between two roads in an urban area. Looks like that “warming” is all UHI.
—How about that warming trend at Streaky Bay, SA? That station’s right near the bay “…right in the middle of a jungle of asphalt and buildings.” Oops, another UHI problem and GHCN again tossing the data from pre 1957. No real warming here.
—How about Nhill, Victoria? Nice long term rural station… pretty flat over a century with no real trend. That doesn’t get you any warming either.
—The next one he looks at is a “semi-rural” site at Richmond, Queensland Post Office. Hmmm… dead flat trend for a century.
None of this is definitive but it looks as if the warming trends require data after 1957 only and it helps to pick only those stations that have been built around for the GHCN and it never hurts the cause to have NASA and the BoM actively making it warmer inside the computer files.
Busted!
50
Oops, forgot the other point. I quoted you saying that floating ice shelves contribute to sea level rise. You do know that’s incorrect and the point of my post at 10.3… right?
70
It’s typical Green “thinking” (sic). If AUS abolishes the World’s Biggest Carbon Tax, then AUS (and only AUS) will get more floodsdroughtscyclonesweirdweatherextremecoldbushfires. And if ice melts in Antarctica, then the sea level rises more in Antarctica. Despite the laws of physics.
Presumably since nobody cares about the sea level in Antarctica, this is a GOOD thing – the Pacific Islands have even less to worry about as they get proportionately less sea level rise than even the trivial mm’s previously calculated!
BTW, does anyone know why atolls are around 1m above sea level? Could it be that they corals simply stop growing when they hit the atmosphere? And if so, no matter how high the water goes, they will simply follow it up like (and I’m using the scientific terms for Developmentally-delayed Mule’s benefit) a rubber ducky in a bathtub?
30
If we killed more whales, wouldn’t that help to lower the water level? Maybe ban the big cruise boats too and their thoughtless displacement of water. Plus develop a kinda roster system for surfers so we don’t get too many at one time pushing those ocean levels up. 🙁
100
Silly Filly,
Whats the difference between glaciers melting into the sea or rain falling into the sea?
100
Ooh, a melting which requires 20 times the energy available from GHG warming attributed to GHG warming – totally implausible – fail
90
6 centimeters is 19 years? Could I please have some of whatever you are smoking?
00
Billionaire environmentalist Tom Steyer short of $100 million campaign goal
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/09/04/billionaire-environmentalist-tom-steyer-falling-short-of-100-million-campaign-goal/
Two months before Election Day, his climate change advocacy group, which has targeted Maine, has a relatively minor presence on the air.
When he vowed to spend as much as $50 million of his own money, and raise the same from like-minded donors, billionaire Tom Steyer electrified the political world with his promise to make climate change an issue in this year’s midterm elections.
Those elections are now two months away, and the former hedge fund manager is running out of time…
…To be sure, Steyer hasn’t backed away from the midterms. He’s given more money than anyone else this year to the myriad of political groups spending freely to buy television ads, call voters and pack mailboxes with fliers. Since the 2012 election, he’s personally donated almost $26 million to his super PAC, NextGen Climate Action, with $5 million of that earmarked for a donation to a group run by former top aides to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid that’s focused on keeping the Senate in Democratic hands.
But NextGen has gotten little other support, collecting only about $1.7 million from other donors through the end of July. Steyer’s nonprofit, NextGen Climate, does not have to disclose its finances, but it also cannot be explicitly political in its actions.
90
As usual, socialism works perfectly well until it runs out of other people’s money.
130
Does anyone know why Sydney fuel prices have been down for such an extended period(not that I don’t like it)but why?Do the fuel companies think we need a break from the normal reaming,has it got to do with the carbon tax or do the fuel companies just need to keep the fuel moving to make room for the next boatload?
40
Come on Bones. It’s not rocket science.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Gas-Prices/Surge-In-U.S.-Oil-Production-Finally-Reflected-At-Pump.html
50
We are now a net exporter of gas. We are wallowing in the stuff, but as supply drives the price down, our weasels in DC and state capitols are piling on the taxes.
http://www.newsmax.com/US/tax-revnue-record-high/2013/11/15/id/536868/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-08/u-s-state-government-tax-revenue-rises-third-year-to-record-1-.html
And still we run trillion dollar deficits.
We are dying by our own hands.
40
Only $1/2tr now that the Tea Party pressured the Kenyan to stop some of extreme wasteathon.
20
And, you are now starting to see the truth of this:
“HOUSTON — Domestic oil production will continue to soar for years to come, the Energy Department predicted on Monday, scaling to levels not seen in nearly half a century by 2016”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/business/international/global-coal-use-predicted-to-keep-growing.html?_r=0
Peak Oil = the living dead.
40
I hate to get back to dangerous subjects but if you think climate change is dangerous you should try finding an adult cobra wandering around your yard as happened in Thousand Oaks, California. It took several days to track it down and bag it. As it turns out it had its venom glands fully intact and could give a deadly bite if cornered. You’re dead in a matter of hours if not treated. I think I’ll take climate change any day.
70
Come and live in an Australian country area.. You will love it 😉
40
I’ve nothing against Australia but the native rattlesnakes are quite enough, thank you. 😉
70
🙂
20
I went to the new ‘Anaconda’ store yesterday and didn’t see 1 snake the entire time, bloody false advertising!!
70
Haha yes! We’ve had tigers, overheads, eastern browns and red bellied blacks on our place. 3 tiers and 1 rbb just last summer.
30
copperheads !
30
What is it Griss, 10 out of the 11 most deadly snakes live here?
50
LOLwut? They rest of the world’s snakes are so weak that when they bite you you live for HOURS??? Hahahahahahahahaha – those are called “earthworms” here.
20
Roy, about six months ago the good wife went out on the back veranda and saw what she at first took to be a stick on a towel she had set out to dry on the railing. (eyesight not the best without gblasses). Fortunately, at the last minute, she realised it was a tiger snake. He was docile enough that I took several close-up photographs of him. We called the local reptile management folks, and Jake (he has a name now) remained asleep until they got here with their snake picker upper, but Jake quickly slithered under the deck. I think Jake has taken up residence, because a) the reptile guy said that a tiger that tame and brazen would have to be a resident, and b) we haven’t seen a rat or a mouse all winter, and we usually have a battle with them becasue of the animal feed around the place and c) we frequently encounter a bunny that has just mysteriously up and croaked. So I think we have a pet tiger snake on the property. I just have to remind myself to avoid sticking my hand into any blind alleys.
60
I take it you haven’t got kids, or pets. !!
40
This is my dog. He gets along fine with Jake the snake.
40
A neighbour of ours had a very aggressive tiger snake on his property. It went for him every time he went outside…he ended up having to take the commonsense action. Ours haven’t been so bad but we have a child here at times and a dog. Actually, DD stood on a big fat one once; she had only shorts and sandals on at the time (silly girl but she hasn’t made that mistake again). She says she jumped back about 8ft in one go and ran. Her silly thoroughbred ran along with her thinking it all great fun! I don’t think he saw the snake or he’d have been even sillier.
00
Folklore in these parts maintains that tiger snakes are aggressive and attack.
I asked the local reptile guru about that and his answer was no. He maintains that when threatened a tiger snake will go on a mission to find his burrow for safety. If a person happens to be between Mr. tiger and safety, it appear that the snake is on the attack, but in fact is on the run to safety. However, as the immortal Mr. Feynman once remarked science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts. That may include snake gurus.
Of course Tasmanian folklore is also rife with stories about the wheel snakes, too.
00
Snakes are predators so they will go after anything that looks like prey when they’re hungry. Fortunately humans don’t look like prey to all but the largest of snakes.
Otherwise the snake is very vulnerable, being prey itself for other critters. So the gurus are right, they don’t attack or strike unless they’re cornered or you surprise them. They retreat. They don’t want to have a fight with anyone.
That fact that they are prey to other animals is the key to understanding them.
On the other hand I wouldn’t want such a snake as the tiger hanging around my place. I’d have it hunted down and removed. There’s too much danger of your slipping up and getting bitten.
10
Rod,
I had an incident with a “rattlesnake” in my yard years ago that ended up embarrassing me. I had a small pile of old lumber beside the garage. One Saturday I was out there and as I approached that pile of lumber I heard the characteristic rattle of the rattlesnake. I picked up a long stick and moved that lumber pile a bit and sure enough, there was the snake. Not wanting to mess with it myself I called for help and the fire department responded. The fire truck in turn brought out my neighbor’s son, which turned out to be fortuitous.
Anyway, they went to the wood pile and began carefully uncovering the snake. Then to my surprise one of them bent down and picked it up in his bare hands. To my chagrin it wasn’t a rattlesnake at all but a common gophersnake. It turns out that those gophersnakes have learned to emulate the rattler by vibrating their tails against whatever is handy, in this case a thin piece of wood.
The next thing I know I’m being asked what I want them to do with it and my neighbor’s son spoke right up and asked for it. So he got the snake, I got to wipe some egg off my face and the fire truck went back to the fire station.
End of story except that I’ve wondered ever since how a snake completely unrelated to the rattlesnake could learn that trick. It seems the world around us is something more complex and sophisticated than we give it credit for.
40
I didn’t know this would set off such a conversation. But I’ll still settle for the rattlesnakes.
Since the area has become so built up around me and the snake’s habitat has been pushed back there’s no longer a significant chance of finding one in my yard. But I learned to respect them and how to deal with them as a Boy Scout on camping trips with a leader who knew his outdoorsmanship very well.
In the Southern California mountains in the summer they are a very likely encounter if you go hiking away from a campsite. But they will stay away from human activity if they can, although that’s by no means guaranteed. The greatest danger is that they don’t always rattle as you approach, so hiking boots suitably heavy to stop a snakes fangs are a good defense. They can only strike near the ground and only for a distance of about half their length at most. So with adult rattlers reaching about 3 to 4 feet average, you’re safe at 2 plus feet away, 3 feet (1 meter) for safety margin. They aren’t interested in a fight with you anymore than you want a fight with them so they will retreat if you let them. And since the wild is their rightful home that’s exactly what you should do. But if they’re cornered they will strike.
If they’re found in your yard the fire department or animal control will respond and capture the snake. It’s then taken back to where it’s safe for both humans and the snake and released.
A rattlesnake bite is survivable, possibly without treatment if you’re an adult in good health. But a child gets more poison relative to body mass and it’s then another matter. But no matter who and no matter if treated right away, it will not be a fun experience.
20
Roy
About forty years ago a friend near Kamloops BC had a pet crow. He had hand raised the bird from the time it was a chick. Now that region of BC is thick with rattlers. Ron was a superb outdoorsman, and in order to feed the crow would, in the fall of the year, go out to collect a whole sack full of rattle snakes. He used a two meter length of steel tubing with a wire loop protruding from the end. Once the loop was over the snakes head, he could tighten the noose by pulling on the wire in the handle. Ron would take a sack or two of snakes home and put them in the deep freeze. The rattlers of course go into hibernation at the minus twenty in the freezer. Fresh meat for the crow for the whole winter!
10
Rod,
Are you sure they went into hibernation? In the refrigerator at something above freezing they would do exactly that but freezing them would kill them.
I have a tortoise in the back yard. She winters under a large shrub my wife planted where she’s protected from overnight frost. If she ever actually froze it would be the end of her. She can even stand being under water for a log time after a heavy rain when hibernating. But freezing any reptile would be as bad as freezing you or me.
00
I apologise. Hibernation was not the right word to use. They were meat for his crow. He would just take one out of the freezer every couple of days, saw a piece off it, and put it back int eh freeze. The sawn off piece, once thawed out, would become dinner for the pet crow.
The crow as I recall was nothing short of amazing. Ron had a cap on his pickup and the crow would ride in there. When he stopped for any period of time, he would open the cap and the crow would fly free. When it was time to go, Ron would just whistle as you would for a pet dog, and the crow would come winging in from the woods and and land in the back of the truck.
As for the tiger snake, I’m uneasy about having him around, but to go searching for him on this property would be difficult if not impossible. They travel, and we have recently disposed of all the livestock. With no feed around, there is nothing to attract mice and rats, so I expect the snake will, if he hasn’t already, will just move on. Mind you, they love frogs, and we have a million of them in various ponds. He may be a permanent resident.
00
Bionic Power
http://www.bionic-power.com/
10
Interesting. It would certainly beat hand cranking of a generator with similar capacity. But you apparently do have to do that hour of walking equivalent knee movement to get that output. I have to suspect not everyone who could benefit from this would be able to do an hour of walking. I know because I’m stuck with using a cane these days and I would no longer attempt that much walking in a day without very good reason.
I hope it does live up to its potential though. One more option for staying in communication will do a lot for the soldier on the battlefield. And the way things are going it looks like we’re headed for troops on the ground whether the president thinks so or not.
30
Which reminds me — when is NATO going to step up to the plate and start pulling the full weight for its own defense? We carry about 75% of the load and it’s high time for that to change.
Then Saudi Arabia better get on the ball or ISIS will soon be running the place, which will be an economic disaster and I’d rather be supporting the Saudis than NATO. For God’s sake, what real national interest does the United States have in Ukraine compared with the middle east?
And no, I’m not an isolationist or an interventionist. I’m a realist.
50
Roy,
NATO ???? Never, it never did and it never will.
Just all down to the grunt on the frontline supported by his country and their respective tax-payer.
But that has been happening for hundreds of years dating back to cast iron contracts for men, weapons and supplies set out by various monarchs since the Crusades.
50
For God’s sake, what real national interest does the United States have in Ukraine
Roy,Joe Biden’s son works for one of their biggest companies.
10
Bones,
Good for him! And now back to the question — what… 😉
00
Maybe we should send Biden and his son to Ukraine to live and work. That would settle the National Buffoon vice president and assure a better next-in-line for the White House.
On the other hand we wouldn’t have the National Buffoon to bash around anymore.
20
Roy,it depends on which conspiracy theory you go with.
Who has the most control over Europe,russia or U.S.
Whether the $US remains as the world currency or other twisted theories.Its got nothing to do with what is good for ukraine,just world politics.
00
Unfortunately you’re absolutely right. It’s politics. And politics is the most expensive game in the world.
I suspect that to many in politics it’s not only a “game” in quotes but a game they play with each other for real just because they can. It has nothing to do with doing their appointed job. And it leads to our “leaders” being held in contempt by so many of those they say they lead.
Who has any confidence in Obama for instance? Certainly no one I know.
00
Didn’t you hear? The anointed one supposedly reached an agreement that all NATO members will contribute 2.6% of their GDP to fund NATO, up from 2.0%. That’s a mere $405,600,000,000 by my math. Now we only need to borrow some more to cover that. It was a quick blurb on TV, but so far I can’t confirm.
40
Naturally! It’s all someone else’s money. So why should anyone worry?
40
For those looking for the 1997 paper by Blair Trewin on the Bourke temperature record “adjustment”:
http://www.journals4free.com/link.jsp?l=14176
Looks like they have most papers from the Australian Meteorological Magazine, and maybe other goodies as well.
30
Better still, go directly to the bom website, and open the “papers” tab on left hand side:
http://www.bom.gov.au/amm/
40
Received a call from the Human Rights Commission a week or so ago in relation to my 18C on Palmer.
Firstly, they questioned my heritage. I intimated that the person was getting close to crossing the line and enquired who do I complain to if the HRC contravenes 18C. Talk of back peddling!
Secondly, the person put to me that Palmer has indeed apologised. I differed because Palmer’s so called apology was to the Chinese Embassy and hence not a public apology as I requested.
So it has gone back to the HRC for further consideration. The wedge is on!
90
Forgive my ignorance. It’s better to ask than stay that way. What is 18C?
Thanks
50
Here.
An insidious law that the government promised to alter or better still, repeal! An attack on free speech.
60
Roy,
18c prevents any speech which may cause offence or insult, therefore making just about any comment about a culture or race interpreted as such for political and personal gain and liable for prosecution – introduced by our previous Australian socialist Labor Government who also tried to introduce new media laws making it illegal for negative comments about that government – specifically targeted against Rupert Murdoch News Corp – talk about communist regimes.
80
Has anyone actually been prosecuted under 18C? If so, what did the jury say about it?
50
Yes, a columnist named Andrew Bolt who advocated that programs designed to improve employment and education prospects for indigenous Australians were being exploited by people who claimed indigenous heritage but looked non-indigenous. Andrew Bolt claimed this was detrimental to indigenous people who were discriminated against on their appearance and who missed out on positions in these programs because of the people who claimed indigenous heritage but did not appear to be indigenous and who therefore would have no problems gaining employment or education through the normal processes.
And it cost him a considerable amount of money – into the hundreds of thousands.
80
Thanks. Now I understand. I knew Bolt was under attack by the Australian Government but I didn’t connect it with 18C, which I’d never heard of by that name.
As I remember he won or is expected to win the case or am I wrong? And even if vindicated he’ll have no recourse to recoup his losses. Governments typically need to give you permission to sue them, and who is going to do that?
————————
After reading the basic text of the law I’m struck with how they always manage to make it sound so beneficial to everyone — until you get into the analysis of it. Obamacare comes to mind.
20
He did not win. The articles concerned, although archived on the net, cannot be republished, and any quoting therefrom needs legal clearance, or you risk contempt of court.
00
Thanks. Faulty memory.
Lions 1, Christians 0! 🙁
10
And don’t feel alone. They want to do that here. Thankfully the First Amendment makes it a lot harder for them. But who knows how far Obama will dare to go with his pen and his phone?
60
Then take them off him unill class is out
50
I sure wish I could. It would be a very great pleasure.
20
Scaper,
Wow huge result considering what the HRC does for a crust.
60
I’m working with Hedley on this.
The intent is to convince the PUP senators to support the Private Members’ Bill that will be introduced jointly by Bob Day and Cory Bernardi in the senate.
I’m willing to take Palmer and others to court on this issue if there is no public apology.
110
Guts move, but I assume dots and crosses are in place already.
40
I see the carpetbaggers have been putting pressure on the government in relation to the RET.
I believe the RET should be abolished completely and so called renewable energy come under the Direct Action umbrella. Let’s see if any of the schemes pass a cost benefit analysis. Most unlikely.
100
“Let’s see if any of the schemes pass a cost benefit analysis.”
yeah, like that’s going to happen !!!
50
BINGO!
50
Why can’t I edit what I’ve just posted?
Or as Demented Doggeral says it –
60
Don’t know for sure but I think that’s what the preview button is for. 😉
There seems to be a point of no return for just about everything.
40
In an earlier thread I made this comment:
To which Gee Aye replied:
So would Gee Aye like to argue against poverty being a top killer?
That is something I read about long before I became interested in the Greens and global warming. I read about Africa particularly being a place where poverty kills.
Now for energy and poverty:
Expensive power also reduces a county’s ability to be industrial and to be competitive, thus making it poorer and less healthy. Now to cold and ensuing lower life expectancy, this from the UK’s Daily Mail:
Cold kills a lot more people than heat. It is definitely more a threat to humans than are properly designed domestic wood heaters, let alone coal-fired power stations. The Greens wanted only the most expensive power for us. With the $23 per tonne ‘carbon’ (i.e. CO2) tax, we already had, by far, the most expensive CO2 tax in the world. They wanted it to come in at $40 and increase rapidly. They wanted reliable and cheap power from coal-fired power stations stopped and replaced with very expensive and unreliable power from solar and bird munching wind power. Unless they are thoroughly stupid, they knew what this would mean. As usual, they showed no hint of concern. And all for what? To make a difference in temperature so small as to not be measurable. And that’s if the models were right and things are as bad as the they predicted. So far, it doesn’t look like it. In a few years we have gone from having among the cheapest power in the world, to having among the most expensive. Meanwhile China is building a coal-fired power station a week. Forget the deceptive argument about China putting up clean ones, an argument that pretends that China’s CO2 emissions will be going down. Like hell they will. They will be going through the roof [link].
I will deal with may other statements regarding the Greens and their agenda hopefully later today.
70
Perhaps this article would be of interest then, Mr G.I.
30
In continuing my response to Gee Aye, I’ll expand on the second part of my earlier comment:
I said that the Greens hate the West. This is demonstrated over and over by things they say and do and by things they don’t say and don’t do. We have already seen how these meddling control freaks are prepared to let people live uncomfortably or even die from not being able to use affordable and safe power. That’s only the tip of the iceberg. Their revile for Australia and the West was significantly demonstrated only this week. Senator Whish-Wilson of the Greens made this astonishing
confessioncomment:He’s worried that name calling the head hackers ‘terrorists’ is unfair and demonising. Is he for real? Yes he is. The Greens are never on the side of the West, our side. The Greens and the head hackers share the same foes. One would have thought that Christine Milne, the Greens leader would fake it and distance herself and the Greens from the comments of Whish-Wilson, but she didn’t; she came back defending his comments with sidestepping waffle:
Another example is the Greens’ support for Hamas against Israel:
Whatever side the West is on, the Greens will be on the other. This reliable bias is reflected in their policies on asylum seeker arriving illegally by smuggler boats. They would actually like to see Australia’s borders opened, no doubt salivating at the irreversible social, demographic and economic wreckage that would ensue. They put on the facade of compassion, but it is their political cause they care about, not people. Only today I saw Sarah Hanson-Young feigning outrage at the death of a second asylum seeker in custody. But there wasn’t even a hint of concern when their bedfellows, Labor, seriously weakened our borders and thousands of illegal immigrants poured in, resulting in the drowning deaths of at least 1,200 people and probably a lot more. Let’s recall what she said:
Now imagine how ballistic the media would have gone if Abbott had said that even about just one asylum seeker. The relative media friendliness to the anti-West Greens and the hostility to the Conservatives is actually another part of the jigsaw puzzle.
I’ll continue this in another post that might come tomorrow.
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This is the third and closing part to my reply to Gee Aye regarding the Greens. The first and second appear above.
When the Berlin Wall fell, people naively assumed that the ideology it harboured, simply evaporated. As if the communist parties around the world (including the Australian Communist Party) suddenly said, “Well, let’s be Conservatives then.” When visiting Sydney in 2011, Czech President Vaclav Klaus said:
That’s from the Herald Sun: “Green agenda has parallels with excesses of communism“. Klaus also said:
I only found that today, but its essence is very close to what I wrote a few days ago:
The following account provides insight into how the ideology has evolved into something more covert. It was happening well before the fall of the Berlin Wall. From Mallory Millett (my bold):
The message to women is to behave like alley cats so as to gain respect . . . . . from leftist/feminist loons, that is. Further down Mallory says (my bold):
Women’s Studies are now called Gender Studies. Strong families are essential to a strong society but the Left’s drive to break up marriages continues today, but with greater force. Here are the comments by Jane Caro, an illustrious darling of the Left. From the ABC’s Q&A:
Of course the leftist media is on-board with all of this. The only marriages they want to recognise are gay ones. I remember seeing a family on the news that had experienced a home invasion. The father, who provided the account, specifically told of his wife being tied up in a chair. The reporter immediately asked, “So how did you feel about seeing your partner tied up in a chair?”
The Greens (all of the same stock) go further in their attempt to confound the concept of marriage, by confounding gender and making the straight, the bent (the ‘other’). The 2013 survey page, which no longer appears, had a picture of Sarah Hanson-Young standing in a row of young people with a survey below it. Here is an excerpt from that survey:
Does any comment need to be added to that?
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After his insistence you post… I bet he won’t even bother reading any of this. 🙂
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Griss,
I’m just glad someone is still here.
I do intend to remind him of his insistence.
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Sean McHugh:
What you have written is very sobering but so true.
I’ve lost count of the times I’ve had to insist on my proper title ‘Mrs’ and use of the word ‘husband’ for my husband and not the twee term ‘partner’. I’m sick to death of being made to feel like a freak when I am patently not one. I always enter ‘Wife and Mother’ when asked on a form for what I do. I happen to feel it is the most important job in the world to bring up youngsters to be decent, honest and with a sense of justice, knowing that they are loved and properly cared for.
I came back to this thread specifically to see if you had added anything else. Thank you. Annie.
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Annie, thank you.
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Just want to wish a happy Fathers Day to all you MF’s out there and don’t complain about your present (if you got one)
All I got was a pair of socks and a bonk….and they were both 2 sizes too big!! 🙂
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How can socks be 2 sizes too big?
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OK jocks then, I believe the sock reference is used to compare the looseness of fit over something elongated…..
Well now it just makes me look like a creep with that description…damn you Bradley and your innocent naivety! 🙁
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Never been accused of innocence…
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“innocent naivety”
Where’s the filly when you need her! 🙂
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Settle down cowboy! 🙂
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Have the Cubans infiltrated our Unis yet? In this report, the FBI are certain that the Cuban secret service is extremely active in American universities.
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Some very fishy misogynists appear to be swimming in Aussie waters.
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You double up on your link.
Try this one.
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Sharks are obviously smarter than men when it come to women.Sharks can take ’em or leave ’em,we just take them and HOPE we took the right one.
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My mistook. That should have been PHILOGYNIST.
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Still wrong it’s MISANDRIST.
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Good god woman, get it right or get back in the kitchen!!
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Just one idea first.
It is really frustrating that in Victoria alone, we spend $500,000 a day, half a milion a day for a desalination plant which we never needed and are not using. We have mortgaged our grandchildren’s future. The total bill over a quarter century repayment is around $28,000,000,000. Similarly in Adelaide and Sydney. Not a (cheap) dam has been built in 50 years. We also built an $800,000,000 pipe line to take water South from the Goulburn to Sugarloaf, against the wishes of everyone in the path. It was only used once, to dump excess Eildon water into the Goulburn at the very height of the flood, making the flood much worse. Otherwise it has probably not been used.
Then in Victoria, I have read that an amazing 30% of our fresh water is using to generate electricity. So why not use the desalination plant to feed Yallourn. At the height of the drought, there was a real investigation into using sea water for power generation, but the cost of upgrading all the plant was considered too much. However everything is in place with the desalination plant next to the power plant in Gippsland. Yallourn and the desalination plant can feed each other, especially with free off peak or night time power which is otherwise dumped. So no real cost! This would free up rivers of Fresh water which could be sent North. We would get something for our money and the farmers would be able to increase crops massively, creating wealth in the country, exports and food independence.
There are plenty of other ideas, but while the Greens bang on about global warming, windmills and solar cells and crippling Western society, we are wasting huge opportunities. The farmland in Northern Victoria and the Riverina and South Australia could bloom. Just an idea for the weekend.
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This is so cool !!
Exploding volcano,
Courtesy WUWT !!
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Wow!
… and the eco loons still think we puny humans have the power to alter this planet in a significant way.
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As a result of too much Hollywood eco loon influence we wave educated people that believe our current energy production is the equivalent of atmospheric processing plants as in the movie ‘Aliens’
If the eco loons sincerely believe earth is doomed and people (skeptics) won’t see sense then they should blast off with Richard Branson in search of LV426 and set up a ‘Shake n Bake’ colony, it’s the least they can do for us.
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I am from Sweden but have a look at abc in Australia sometimes. Yesterday I made a couple of comments on the really stupid article “Should democracy be abandoned to respond to the climate crisis?” but they seemed to be censored. Is that actually happening in Australia on a website run by tax money ? I live in China at the moment and I am fighting the censoring here every day just to be able to read my email on google. I have to use a VPN to read my email. However, I know the government still read them as I can not reach YouTube despite of using a VPN. To get to YouTube I have to use first VPN and then TOR. So they are still behind. Be aware what might come if the left can rule. Just have a look at HongKong how democracy can be handled. Interesting will be what will happen there from now on to the coming election. Keep an eye.
So what is so damned dangerous mentioning to ABC ? I just send some facts to some of the comments because they were way off. Like saying 10 million was killed by Mao. That is not true, it was 120 million that died in the great famine, mostly in 1960 and 1961. It was stopped when the second man in charge happened to travel to Changsha, his place of birth, and suddenly understood what was going on. So he stopped the famine, but got Mao as his enemy and was ousted and killed soon after. How could he stop the famine ? easy, the food was collected and send to Russia to pay for nuclear technology. Mao wanted to be the communist world leader and needed the weapons. He never achieved it.
Next was a comment talking about the Atolls in the Pacific and sea water rise. Well, I was there last year. I actually also saw one of the information centers and visited one hour of info for the local citizens. I also spoke to them and they was not aware of any problem before the event ! On the contrary, sea level is ok what is causing problem is if a cyclon happen to pass. (Or hurricane in the NH). I would say that is a problem back home in Sweden too. But sea level, no. I was at Tuvalu, Kiribati, Tuamotos (French Polynesia) and Micronesia.
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Rolf;
a recent survey found that 40% of the reporters at the ABC belong to or vote for the Greens. Most of the rest support the left wing of the Labor Party.
The other problem is the closed atmosphere of the main ABC, as they live in their own little world. Very much a product of the (prosperous) inner suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne. Whenever you see a jibe about latté sipping inner city men in black you can assume that the ABC is included.
There is another side to the ABC which deals with rural Australia and this is different, and you won’t hear it overseas. The rural lobby has been the reason why any conservative government hasn’t shut them down. Strangely the left wingers keep trying to eliminate this side of the broadcaster.
The inner city dwellers and their left wing numbers in the ALP is why Labor governments haven’t shut them down, although at times surely tempted. They are deterred also by the screams of The Friends of the ABC, and by the thought of the shock jocks of commercial radio having free range. (It is very easy to get an audience if you against everything the ABC says).
At some time the exasperation of a government will boil over and they will decide they don’t need the ABC. Once shut down their main media outlet (the ABC) won’t be able to scream hysterically about the “need for an independent voice”, and the annoying drone will cease. In the meantime don’t bother to listen to it, most australians don’t.
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