JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


Handbooks


Advertising


Australian Speakers Agency



GoldNerds

The nerds have the numbers on precious metals investments on the ASX



The Skeptics Handbook

Think it has been debunked? See here.

The Skeptics Handbook II

Climate Money Paper



Archives

Tweet mining in the Cancel Culture era

Skeptics have been living with “cancel culture” for years, but now, suddenly, nearly the whole Western world is.

Inside Cancel-Culture whole people and even statues are sliced out of public debate because of one breach of some optional movable rule. No matter how many years of experience or how great their achievements, one single “mistake” in the game of virtue signalling in any area means all their opinions on every topic are deemed unworthy.

Obviously, those that can’t persuade seek to cancel instead.

Here’s the brilliant Remy from late last year mocking journalists with twitter trawling fixations.

Imagine what would happen if an anchorman could say what they really thought?

“Toss him in a well and see if he floats”

PS: It’s good to see a few grown-ups like JK Rowling speaking up to end the cancel culture toxicity. It’s a shame they had to toss crumbs to the TDS crocodile. (People are looting and pillaging, but Trump‘s a “threat to Democracy”?) But otherwise they fight the good fight for free speech.

“We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith disagreement without dire professional consequences.”

And so we do.

VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
Rating: 9.5/10 (75 votes cast)
Tweet mining in the Cancel Culture era, 9.5 out of 10 based on 75 ratings

134 comments to Tweet mining in the Cancel Culture era

  • #

    Yes you have to admire j k Rowling and shake your head at the sheer woke ness of those trolling her for self evident and medically correct opinions.

    Trans gender and many aspects of woke culture is explained in the latest book by Douglas Murray, ‘the madness of crowds’

    Basically many woke groups are not satisfied with equality but want to be superior to the main stream.

    Not an easy read but if you want to try to make sense of certain aspects of modern culture it’s well worth getting a copy

    110

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Jo I am perplexed by the whole “Cancel Culture’ idea.
      In Oz & the UK the meme has now died. It is seen as foreign media implant and so ignored.

      It’s home is the USA. But the USA is huge and diverse
      With many different cultures that have often fought to be ‘dominant’ over the Country’s 250 year history.
      Examples : North versus South in the 1830′s-65…
      Isolationist US versus an outward looking US from the 1880′s till 1941 ( Pearl Harbour )
      Newly Freed Black dominant in the South post 1866 versus the defeated Southern whites.
      Wealthy capitalist employers versus working people’s unions from 1880′s till 1930′s.
      The largely white Hippies of the 1960-80′s versus Old fashioned conservative culture of the 1940-60′s
      Now it’s the Greenists versus ordinary folks wanting the normal life they have always had.
      There is a constant churn in the USA.
      It’s still happening in yet another way with groups competing for cultural & political dominance.

      Australia is far more stable thank god.

      119

      • #
        nb

        Good perspective. The internet has enrolled us more deeply in the theatre of US politics – and most of it is theatre, even if it has real consequences.

        100

        • #
          WXcycles

          It’s more nasty than just theatre to make money via bums on seats at any cost though nb, it’s deliberately setting about to poison minds, especially those who are inexperienced in life, and another group who are highly to moderately susceptible to being influenced and tweaked by media, and it’s being pushed along by the age-group and experience and intelligence-level which does know a lot better about what the results of doing this will be.

          These are old-school wicked people. A lot of them in political parties and a lot of them working as executive producers, and ‘news’ script writers within mainstream TV stations, where lying in depth is not just the norm, it’s ascended to a high art form, and is considered absolutely essential to selling ads to continue their income levels and deceitful sway, at any cost. There’s no lie and no considered poisoning of minds and spoiling of lives of others that’s beneath them.

          Theatre suggests a form of relatively harmless but challenging entertainment, but this is old-school wickedness that’s quasi-hidden in plain sight via its ‘normalization’ alone. It fits into the overall culture so neatly it’s not even particularly lacerating to our sensibilities. We’re also expected to “wink” at it, and if we don’t give it a get out of jail free card (and the politicans and courts have), then its us who’re causing ‘offense’ to the new ‘normal’.

          No, it’s not theatre, and it’s not normal, its brazen wickedness, with lower and lower constraint with time.

          Yes, I’m in favor of censorship, we make sure our children do not see certain things before they can deal with it mentally, we make sure films and books and computer games comply with a set of age ratings standards to filter and lop-off certain content to certain age groups, as it would have a terrible affect on them if they were to stew in that everyday of the week. And there are adults who apparently can’t deal with much at all, mentally, including the internet and a smart phone, who do indeed need to be censored to protect others in the same space. Which is why we have similar and related systems of censorship in the prom of “parental controls” built into smart phones, major domestic operating systems, TVs and Browsers. I’m very much in favor of that, and of limiting the content on the web toward that end. Indeed, in Australia in recent years, particularly egregious computer games which were specifically designed to confuse and scramble people’s sanity and sense of reason are no longer available to buy here. Indeed some deeply disturbing internet sites are not possible to regularly access from Australia.

          If this keeps the crazies at bay I’m all in favor of it. I’m also highly in favor of throwing executive producers of deliberately false and deceitful TV programs and fake news, plus holding the majority station owners responsible for this, with several years in prison and forfeiture of their assets.

          If you damage us for money, we will damage you.

          That’s actual Justice, that’s what law was originally meant to achieve, and deliver to those who were damaged by the brazenly wicked.

          I’ve had enough of the wickedness and the “winking” at it, by politicians, courts, and the ‘normalization’ of it as ‘culture’. No it’s not, it’s wrong, if it’s wrong for children and undermines the weak minded it needs to go. We used to put crazy people into mental institutions, so that they were not a harm to themselves, but especially mot harmful to everyone else. We do the same with criminals, we used to put them into prisons – now they get a bonus, and sign an NDA.

          And that’s all done to bring justice, plus the need to protect, and to censor the content of society against the crazy and the harmful. Except now, all the crazies and the harmful have a smart phone, and get away with everything, and there is no justice and everyone is being harmed by it, and is making the culture sick and deranged. The sick and deranged who revel in their wicked mind, need firstly, not to be living in our streets, and trying to re-educate us in professional madness, over the internet.

          They need to be censored — like we do for any other known harmful influencing.

          I’m sure some would hiss and spit at that (most will just red thumb it without counterpoint, because they can see it makes sense, they just don’t like accountability) but guess what? This is real ‘free-speech’ being exercised, which is pointing out that not every voice should be heard, on all topics, not even on most important topics, and the crazy shouldn’t be heard practically at all. Censorship is a fine line, easily used and abused as well, but it has a valid and necessary place, given the mess which results from the lack of it.

          I’ve had enough of listening to everyone equally.

          Though I still want to decide the ones I listen to.

          In other words, I don’t think the problem is the rest of us here, the problem is mostly with the people who keep pushing forward the voices that really should not be getting pushed forwards in public discussions of serious topics. By which I mean, the sorts of people I mentioned above, who really could use a few years in a prison, for deliberately poisoning minds and ruining lives, toxifying social discourse and views, and where justice for that is being denied, and the real crime of doing that to people is being ‘winked’ at by sophist bureaucratic ‘authorities’, officers and agents who have ceased to do their envisioned job and its formal description and raison d’être, but still draw a salary from a public treasury as if you were doing it — no accountability and no recourse for an absence of performance.

          (And I want to be perfectly clear hear, I wasn’t discussing the ABC at all, if that’s what some tended to inevitably conclude. But if you think something may apply to you … it probably does.)

          151

      • #
        R.B.

        Wilson Gavin was a young gay Catholic Australian who suicided because he was harassed for criticising drag queens reading stories to children.

        Gavin was one of a small group of gay men who campaigned for a “no” vote in the postal survey on marriage. At 19 he told Pellowe ““They’re not going to stop at marriage. Their goal is to tear down the family and every traditional institution in Australia. They just hate everything that I love – they hate me because I’m a conservative. And they hate me more because I’m a gay, and I can say to them, ‘I’m gay. I’m not a homophobe, I love gay men! You can’t call me a homophobe just because I oppose same sex marriage, just because I’m against your agenda. You can’t shout me down the way you can most people. You can’t shout me down by saying I’m a bigot and I’m a homophobe.”

        But they did.

        130

        • #
          Deano

          A very telling account of exactly what sort of people the SJWs are. I am dumbfounded as to why so many politicians – who rely on popular votes, keep licking the boots of these bullies.

          80

      • #
        StephenP

        Don’t you believe it as regards the UK.
        The cancel culture is still in full flow with people being ‘disappeared’ as a result of a wrong word or opinion on Twitter or an interview.
        One recently was Dr David Starkey who used the word D..N in an interview about slavery and genocide. He has lost his university fellowships, book deals and probably broadcasting invitations. A pity as he is an interesting and thought provoking speaker.
        Businesses and organisations are so scared of being accused of the r word that they will throw anyone to the wolves who puts a foot wrong.
        PS What is the definition of the phrase ‘kangaroo court’ ?

        42

        • #
          Geoff Sherrington

          Stephenp,
          Now you are helping me to waste my time by trying to work out what a D..N is.
          If it is worth your effort to post it here, spell it out in full so readers can understand what you are on about.
          If you have a hangup about using a word, then simples – stay silent, by your own choice. Geoff S

          31

      • #
        StephenP

        Don’t you believe it as regards the UK.
        The cancel culture is still in full flow with people being ‘disappeared’ as a result of a wrong word or opinion on Twitter or an interview.
        One recently was Dr David Starkey who used the word D..N in an interview about slavery and genocide. He has lost his university fellowships, book deals and probably broadcasting invitations. A pity as he is an interesting and thought provoking speaker.
        Businesses and organisations are so scared of being accused of the r word that they will throw anyone to the wolves who puts a foot wrong.
        PS What is the definition of the phrase ‘kangaroo court’ ?

        43

      • #
        Deano

        Cancel Culture may not be big here (yet) but certainly our workplaces are being used to push socialist agendas.

        As a condition of continued employment I must successfully complete various online courses where socialist ideas are taught as “appropriate attitudes required in the workplace”. This boils my piss (sorry for the naughtiness) and thankfully I am not too far off retiring but when I am free of the need to satisfy my employment conditions, I will campaign against this appalling Chinese style social credit system that has infected out work culture.

        Lecture over.

        100

    • #
      Deplorable Lord Kek

      Yes you have to admire j k Rowling

      Not really.

      She is only worried about freedom of speech for her and her fellow lefties.

      102

  • #
    Jojodogfacedboy

    I have noticed journalists/media shaming politicians into following what they want reported as news or your called some category of derogatory terms. Pushing society off the rails of sense or even common sense.

    140

    • #
      Jojodogfacedboy

      Real problems and issues that should be in the news is being totally ignored for some group or another saving rubber chickens from drowning or some sort of thing.

      120

  • #
    David Maddison

    On social media YouTube, Twitter and Facebook are destroying themselves with censorship of conservatives. They are even censoring the US President and his supporters. Soon they will be nothing but echo chambers for the regressive totalitarian Left (a tautology, I know). These platforms are no longer about a free exchange of ideas. They are all currently purging conservatives (deleting accounts) in the lead up to the US election. Not just conservatives, even people who are centrist or even mildy rational or who have traditional moral values of any kind. I myself just got a 30 day ban on Facebook for posting a meme critical of Che Guevara. Can you believe that?

    232

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Their cries of no boarders appear empty when in practice that is all they are doing, global communication platforms that monopolise the industry aren’t safe enough for everyone so put up cyber boarders that stop “those people” from spreading hate amongst the vulnerable plebs which they must protect.

      90

      • #
        Serp

        Finally I’ve had too much of the boarders/borders solecism.

        There’s somebody, whose name I forget, posts here has the whole slew, lose/loose and to/too plus the boarders/borders mixup, in a single post from time to time.

        That’s all; had to say it…

        121

  • #
    Yonniestone

    Notice how everything is taken to extremes with the left, Jo says (with more right than most) how Skeptics have been living with “cancel culture” for years, yes and what started out as opposing views on a hypothesis quickly descended into threats then actions that damaged people for simply disagreeing.

    This thin wedge of cancel culture was branded simply Climate and became the Trojan Horse for more insane ideology that’s inflicting our society today, from a conservative view the practice of assessing, criticising and accountability is done for improving something for the benefit of the majority, for the left rules are made up as to what you can critique for the benefit of the few.

    190

    • #
      Speedy

      Hi Yonnie. All true – the cancel culture is only another manifestation of the anti-Western push amongst those who have most benefitted from it. In discussions with these people, there is also the problem that we all get emotionally attached to our ideas. And, in many cases, people make these ideas the centre of their lives (e.g. AGW). When these ideas are challenged by a logical argument, they respond emotionally. In many ways it is like explaining colour to a blind man.

      We need to engage emotionally with the AGW types before we can have a logical discussion with them. Otherwise, they are just as likely to pull down the shutters at the first sign of something they don’t like to hear. The very worst thing we can do is to give them an excuse for thinking we are somehow morally inferior. In many ways, it is wise to turn the other cheek…

      Cheers,

      Speedy

      30

      • #
        Serp

        Time out of mind it has been observed that there are no “discussions with these people” since they observe the rules of China’s “agree or die” politics.

        50

  • #
    Richard Ilfeld

    I’m very sorry, but I’ve given up on the notion of “good faith”; it fails dramatically in the presence of “power by any means necessary.
    I cast about for an example to illustrate my view of the schism. A States attorney is an official who acts as a prosecutor to uphold our laws,
    but has wide discretion as to what crimes to prosecute and how to interpret the law. All take the same oath, to uphold the law and preserve and protect the constitution.

    Imagine this scenario: it is an urban demonstration. A vapid darkly-pigmented young person exercises his avowed need for social justice by lobbing a brick through a store window.
    This carnage doesn’t fully satisfy him, so he prepares a molotov cocktail, and hold it up in one hand and a lighter in the other. The store owner gets his legally registered
    gun, displays it without aiming it at the young man, and instructs him to back off. He does so while shouting a profanity laden diatribe, at which the point the police arrive to arrest him.

    Enter the states attorney.

    In a woke jurisdiction, the young man is viewed as a victim of social injustice, bonded out on his own recognizance (no money) and no charges are brought. The store owner is brought in, charged, and fined for reckless endangerment, and threatened with further chargers of a hate crime if he complains.

    In a normal jurisdiction, the young man is charged with a crime…the seriousness based on the judgement as to whether life was threatened or only property. The court system will treat him differently if a juvenile or adult, and he will likely add to his record but not gain jail for this offence alone. The owner will be clear under “stand your ground” or “castle” law.

    In essence the two men differ on which is the criminal and which is the victim. This is not a good faith argument, any more than confusion of correlation with causation is a good faith argument in climate change. In good faith argument, the parties can usually continue to agree to disagree, and coexist giving one another space.

    I would submit that when one side needs to silence the other and disallow coexistance, it is an admission of promotion of a lie. So it is with both cases cited.

    Sometimes, when the opposition says “this means war”, you have to accept their terms, and, if you like your own space, simply beat the crap out of them.

    260

    • #
      Orson

      Richard, yes. It’s now too True. One cannot live in a Left dominant state in the US and expect a dissenter to receive state assistance or protection.

      Those days are gone. Instead, favoured victim groups do.
      Equality under the law has been outlawed as “racist.”

      The only secure option is moving away from such states. NeoMarxists are now in control of all “Democrat” localities. Dissenters will be de facto prosecuted or prosecuted in your face.

      The American experiment in self-government is now dead.

      50

  • #
    Contemptible Blackguard

    What happens if you get a black eye? I know – you now say its an eye of colour! And as for me, I am a person of colour – white! Aint that a colour?

    110

    • #
      AndyG55

      White is actually a combination of all colours.

      90

    • #
      Yonniestone

      What happens if you get Pink Eye?, I’m picturing the woke embracing a condition that epitomises their social standing, irritating, contagious and unwanted.

      60

      • #
        Richard Ilfeld

        You got it, and there is a simple description. Alone.

        And utterly intolerable to them, ignored.

        40

      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        You would have to ask your eye what it’s gender is today and what it’s preferred pronoun is. Then you could talk about it.

        60

  • #
    David Maddison

    Here is a US compilation of legacy news media readers all reading exactly the same thing. Note that the laugh track is added by a third party.

    https://youtu.be/wF0VGnmLExc

    72

  • #
    David Maddison

    The stark difference between the modern Left and the traditional right is seen every day on this blog. Conservatives are generally polite and friendly and allow Leftists to express and argue their point of view.

    This would be unthinkable on a similar blog promoting the viewpoint that anthropogenic global warming was actually real.

    Whereas Leftists aren’t censored on this blog unless they break stated rules (same as anyone), most rational thinkers here will have experienced abuse or censorship elsewhere if promoting our alternate “sceptical” point of view. In fact, the usual treatment on Facebook is to be banned from commenting on a warmist group or on the group of a warmist politician (that’s most of them).

    Similarly, anyone that dares express a viewpoint on C-19, even though science based, if it varies from the official doctrine, people are usually censored for that.

    It’s scary how the Left have destroyed free and open Western society and it won’t end well unless conservatives speak up and do something about it. The recent riots in the US provide a small taste of what the Left will do if they gain control.

    It is vital for the United States and the Western world in general for Donald Trump to be re-elected. Since he is the only leader of a major power that supports Western Civilisation, it’s the end for all of us if he doesn’t win.

    172

    • #
      RickWill

      I have been banned from Reneweconomy – it promotes weather dependent electricity generation. So not specifically catastrophic climate change.

      Last thing I tried to get up was a link to Michael Moore’s Planet of the Humans; no go.

      170

      • #
        Yonniestone

        You banned seriously?, I recall at the Melbourne meet up your long term expertise and passion for solar power generation that can be accessed and achieved by the average person for their own homes, I’d guess your reluctance to demonise CO2 in comments led to your banning, pity for them I guess.

        90

        • #

          Rick, and others, let’s make being banned into a game. Do your best to get banned for the most innocuous polite thing, and send a screenshot to me and we can let the world know how fragile they are.

          Reneweconomy can’t cope with Michael Moore? What excuse did they give?

          181

          • #
            RickWill

            No reason. Nothing from them. Nothing I put up gets posted any more. Has been like that for more than a year.

            I have always been respectful. Never used any derogatory terms for people or their contributions. Although I have been called all sorts.

            The other place I am banned is Macrobusiness. It is a wokeful site. Again nothing to say why, just cannot post there anymore. I followed it from its beginning but never took up subscriptions. I actually got requoted a couple of times by the authors but once I made unwokeful remarks on certain topics I could no longer post. Unwokeful is not 100% behind CCC and “renewables”.

            My last long debate at Reneweconomy was about demand management (turning power off). One of the regulars there said Australia did not want loads like aluminium smelters – they were inappropriate in a “renewable” supplied grid; as was any load that could not be turned off and at the whim of the generators.

            It is easy enough to register to post at Reneweconomy- have a go at a link to Planet of Humans – see what happens.

            70

          • #
            AndyG55

            “get banned for the most innocuous polite thing,”

            I’m not sure I can do that, Jo :D

            80

            • #
              Analitik

              Weren’t you banned a few years ago?After fewer than 5 posts?

              Back when I could be bothered, I was very careful when trying to debate there to control my exasperation at the inane replies but Gilles still disappeared some of my posts which I took as a sign that I was getting too close to to the mark.

              50

          • #
            PeterS

            Excuse/reason? Simples. They hate the West and have embarked en mass to destroy whatever the West stands for in the traditional sense. The electronic version of book burning is already underlay. I would have thought their express goal is very clear by now. The chipping away of all the good values started a long time ago. Little by little they will win unless our leaders do something about it. The trouble is how do we get every Western nation take on a leader like Trump? As far as I can see every Western nation apart from the US has a leader who is a spineless appeaser at best.

            60

          • #

            Jo
            Just posted at reneweconomy and lets see if they put it up there. The article was a complete and utter joke about hydrogen, and being an engineer with industrial gases experience could not resist pointing out the idiocy of it all.

            Also sunk it into the Sun Cable project that Canon-Brookes is spruiking, no doubt hoping for subsidies. Renewable power to Singapore??? Transmission losses sink that without even trying….

            If I am not posted then that shows the “cancel” crowd are in charge and one would question the ethics of silencing those who would point out how many of these renewable ideas are completely unworkable from an engineering point of view…. If I do get posted lets see what sort of storm it generates…

            80

    • #
      PeterS

      Agree but understand that Trump is one person and is still not truly representative of the modern Republican party. There are some in his own party who would love to see him replaced by a “down tuned” leader. Recall the threat by him to run as an independent when he was poorly supported by other Republicans just prior to the previous two elections. Even if Trump wins this time around it will be revealing to see who will lead the party next time around. It will indicate the long term direction of the nation. It would be nice to think he will be replaced eventually by someone of equal if not greater stature but in a climate when such people of stature are being pulled down, both metaphorically and physically (statues) I see little hope of seeing someone even remotely like Trump running for an election let alone being a future POTUS. The next 4 years will be critical for the West as to who will be POTUS but after that it will be doubly so.

      70

      • #
        WXcycles

        I see little hope of seeing someone even remotely like Trump running for an election let alone being a future POTUS.

        That was true in 2014.

        32

  • #
    Bill In Oz

    Looks like Trump will lose the USA presidential elections in November.
    There are six recent sample election polls with results out.
    All of them have Biden in the lead by varying degrees.
    CNN has a 55% for Biden versus 41% for Trump
    Ipsos Reuters has Biden at 43% for Biden and 37% for Trump
    Monmouth Uni has Biden at 53% and Trump at 41%
    Pew Research has Biden at 54% versus Trump 44%
    NPR/PBS -Marist has Biden at 52% and Trump at 44%.
    What’s interesting is that Biden is hardly campaigning.
    The decisive swing in public opinion seems to be Trump’s inept strategy on Covid 19.
    Which has seen 130,000 deaths in the USA in just 5 months.

    213

    • #
      • #
        robert rosicka

        Polls are wildly inaccurate as are the betting market odds , I vaugley remember the farmer in America who mortgaged his farm and put a million dollars US on Trump to win in the last election .
        His family disowned him but at over 600 to 1 odds the family soon got back in touch after the election .
        If I could get those sort of odds today I’d be doing the same today .

        https://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting/politics/us-election-2016/US-Presidential-Election-2020-2982545?&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8aimiZPB6gIVxRwrCh0eswfaEAAYAyAAEgLa2_D_BwE

        150

        • #
          TdeF

          Ignore the polls. They are rubbish. A 1,000 person sample typically in a country of 330 million people? As they were for Brexit, Boris, Trump, Morrison,.. And the polls claim implicitly to be representative? With an accuracy claimed to two decimal places? It makes Climate Science seem reasonable.

          Washington DC votes 98.4% for Hilary. So what does it matter if the cities vote 100% for Biden? The country counts and 80% of Americans live in the country.

          The greatest sign is rapidly dropping income for a Biden election and a balooning fund for Trump, breaking all records.

          Issues like the increasing devastation of black neighbourhoods, kickback from the monstrous Black Lives Matter riots, threats to the upper classes who love virtue signalling until the Eat the Rich mob storms Beverly Hills and a few missteps from Biden. The police withdrew from Baltimore black areas two years ago and the murder rate doubled. In New York, it is up 340%. The resident want the police back and the police refuse. That’s not equality and Black Lives Matter. It will end up like the no go areas of Stockholm and St. Denis in Paris. No police, total devastation.

          Now Biden promises to reversing Trump’s cuts, open the borders, turn every migrant into a citizen, sure vote winners. Support for defunding the police, a total disaster. Demolition of history, from Columbus to black heroes and all the Confederate heroes of the South. Also an attack on every statue and memorial in the US, even the incredible Mount Rushmore.

          All the big problems in the Democrat cities who could not vote more Democrat if they tried. With Black mayors and the others bend the knee to mobs, like Seattle.

          As Maurice Newman points out, 44% of all murders are by black men despite being only 13% of the population and the chance of a police officer being killed by a black man is 18x higher than an unarmed black man being killed by a policeman. It is the police who are terrified and their lives under threat every day. And in the cities black on black murder is 90% of it, but no one says anything. The thin blue line of brave men is all that is keeping the black dominated cities from self destruction. And they know it.

          I do not believe the polls. You can take as many as you like in LA and Chicago and New York and Seattle. They do not matter. The promised destruction of everything most Americans care about will bring out the voters for Trump. Their lives, jobs and future depends on it. And when the Democrats lose the Congress, Trump will not be constrained by Flake and Paul Ryan and friends, the Never Trumpers who stopped his changes when the Republicans had control.

          171

    • #
      David Maddison

      I think the legacy media and polling companies are faking those results, just like they did last time when they claimed Killary would have a landslide win.

      143

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        David It’s likely that the polls voting samples are a bit unrepresentative.
        The switch away from live phone polling towards online polling has impacted the sampling process just like it has in Australia.
        However drilling down into the state sample polls is showing a swing away from Trump as well
        Take a look at the state by state results.
        The rust belt states are the key ones to watch.
        Trump won those former Democrat states in 2016.
        In fact that gave him the victory.
        The poll results for these states make that doubtful this time.

        210

      • #
        PeterS

        Perhaps but I also suspect that the silent majority don’t like to get involved in polling surveys and thus the poll results end up being skewed towards the left leaning nut jobs.

        150

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          That’s true in the highly partisan, polarised political scene in the USA.
          But I suspect it’s true of folks who silently are old fashioned/labor liberal as well.

          23

      • #
        TdeF

        Faking the results? I doubt it. The real problem in polling is to get results which even begin to reflect reality. In my experience, conservatives are not interested in polling in the first place. In fact random phone calls are annoying. Many have hidden telephone numbers, answering machines, do not call bans. On the other hand those sitting at home on taxpayer handouts have nothing better to do, so there is an inbuilt bias.

        92

        • #
          Dennis

          You describe me TdeF, and if I get caught I say no thank you.

          81

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          With that process you are ensuring that the polls are unrepresentative here in Oz TdeF.
          The online polls tend to over represent certain sections of a society : the younger and more online savvy folks.
          So when actual telephone polls ring in, it’s important to respond to help ensure that they are accurate.

          18

        • #
          Ross

          The poll results Bill quotes above are nation wide “popular” vote numbers. We all know the US electoral system does not work like that –it is state electoral college numbers that count.
          The same thing happened in 2016 and we know what happened.

          30

          • #
            Bill In Oz

            Ross, that’s true. And that’s why I suggested looking at individual state polls.
            Especially the rust belt states which Trump still needs to be re-elected by the electoral college..
            In those states things look grim for Trump.

            And then there is the light problem that Trump has handled the pandemic ineptly
            And the people more at risk are older Americans.
            They may not like Biden but they simply could stay home.
            My gut feeling is that this election will see another 1964 Barry Goldwater election fiasco

            24

    • #
      Richard Ilfeld

      You may be correct, Bill, but these polls are not instructive.
      In a ‘cancel culture’ public polling is not useful.
      “Errors” during our primary elections have been double digits in both directions –
      as a combination of those unwilling to talk to pollsters and those trying to talk to them to create
      momentum, coupled with small sample sizes and vast numbers of unreachable phone numbers have
      destroyed the process.

      The parties still use personal interviews for private information, but no published poll can afford this.

      61

      • #
        el gordo

        It has become a universal problem for the pollsters, they sort of became irrelevant overnight.

        72

        • #
          TdeF

          Being consistently wrong has not helped either. The odds on a Trump victory at Sportsbet.com were over 10:1 during the election. Polling is a very rich business but increasingly the question is how wrong can you be and still get paid for your opinion?

          And without California, Trump won everything handsomely, even the popular vote. The mass migration into California by Mexicans has changed the state. 50% of Californians speak Spanish as their first language and only the Democrats approve mass migration.

          However on the East Coast, in Florida in particular, the Spanish were cheering in the streets. They do not want the drug cartels following them. People escaped hell in Mexico and Cuba. They want the doors closed on MS13 and the cartels.

          101

          • #
            TdeF

            One of the core problems is homogeniety. Elections are won in discrete areas within discrete states in a Federation of states with weighting. You can win the majority of votes and lose an election handsomely. You have to win more seats and more states and states with more weighting, which is the only reason the Greens have seats at all.

            Yes, it’s one man one vote, but if you live in strong areas, you vote does not count. The weighting given to some states like Tasmania and South Australia are ridiculous but it does allow them to get much more of the GST than say Western Australia. America and Australia would not have Federated without a deal like this or the big cities would control everything, as in America.

            So polling is vexed. Polling in strongly held seats is a waste of time. So it is about the swinging seats, the swinging voters which is why so much of politics is determined by what the swinging voters wants, and why American politicians all bend the knee, conform, humble themseles, kowtow to the swinging voters.

            What is weird about Australia, especially South Australia and Victoria, is that so many people live in one city. 83% of all Victorians live in Melbourne. This would be remarkable in any country. And it does prejudice everything in politics. But in America it is not true.

            Twitter is only one of the ways to bring people down in the eyes of the swinging voter. Perhaps what is remarkable about Trump is that they have not been able to find anything in his past, except by twisting his words and editing videos, fake news. You get the feeling that if Trump had farted in an elevator in 1969 there would be a book by friends of the victims. And still there is nothing. Just a new book by his niece, bitter about the family distribution of wealth from her grandfather.

            So the chase is still continuing for Trump’s tax returns. Meanwhile visibly ageing incompetent Biden is given a free pass on everything despite the obvious fact that he has achieved nothing in a lifetime in politics, and all the shady deals to successfully enrich his family. And nothing is said.

            111

    • #
      MudCrab

      Polls said Hillary would win.

      I still smirk at the memory of driving home the day the results were clear to see ‘Hillary Poised to Make History’ banner headlines for that morning’s newspapers.

      Polls also said Shorten was going to win. What was it? Sportsbet? How many millions did they lose in believing that?

      The reasons these ‘unknowns’ become fact… right up till the moment that they aren’t and then we are bombarded with pictures of crying wokes who have no idea what just happened (aka Brexit Vote, Trump election, Shorten’s humiliation, hey, lets go back to the Republican vote 20 odd years ago as well), is that the media believe that their role is not to offer observations and leave it up to the consumer to decide, but to decide in advance and, rather than showing their working, cut straight to the answer.

      To rehash an over used meme; 42. That is all you need to know.

      This problem is made worse because while insiders may believe they are doing a noble act, media is business. It exists to sell either the content itself, or to convince advertisers pay for access to their audience. Hence you write what your audience is willing to read and pay for.

      Truth? Are your audience willing to pay for it? If the answer is no then you tell them what you want to hear. If you have a business model that revolves around using Flat Earthers as your dominant customers then you don’t publish updates from NASA.

      You can then end up in a close environment where you write for your audience and they respond by agreeing with you. People who don’t agree with you are probably not your customers, so you don’t need to even listen to their feedback. You go through your working year telling your readers that A+B = C and your readers agree with you and sing glory about your C and you make C t-shirts and C coffee mugs and sneer and laugh at all those people you occasionally meet who think D is a thing and you and your readers are content and happy.

      Except the system usually turns out to be bigger than just you and your readers and suddenly a major event (Brexit, Trump Election, Christmas) comes around and all those people you have been mocking and ignoring and have never even had to speak to before suddenly get together and D.

      And you and your friends say WTF?!

      Conservative Advantage means the people saying WTF?! are normally from the Left. Lefts get upset about views that differ too much from their own and reject them so bluntly they end up forgetting they even exist. Conservatives are happy to observe all views – hey, you might learn something useful – and embrace or discard based on personal and current needs. Even though they don’t support different ideas, they still know they exist.

      Always take the big view before you choose your own and always remember the big view still exists.

      101

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        It’s the ‘Big View’ I am taking Mudcrab.
        And being an Australian,
        I’m just an observer in this cat fight.

        25

    • #
      Mal

      These polls are being taken at the worst of the pandemic in the US
      By Nov if the worst is over and the economy is recovering, then the voters may see things differently
      This pandemic has made everything uncertain.
      A lot of people I know don’t use twitter
      I’m one of them, we have too much soscial media

      20

    • #
      GD

      Looks like Trump will lose the USA presidential elections in November. There are six recent sample election polls with results out. All of them have Biden in the lead by varying degrees.

      … What’s interesting is that Biden is hardly campaigning

      And there’s the reason right there why these polls are not accurate.

      Once Biden starts campaigning and debating, it will be obvious to one and all that he is unfit to lead the USA.

      Game over! Four more years!

      40

  • #
    Steve of Cornubia

    I have zero sympathy with Rowling. She has been part of the mob attacks on other people, happy to pick up a pitchfork and march into town to watch a few heretics burn.

    It reminds me of that awful period in America, as the West was built. Law and order was slow to follow the early settlers and so small towns would spawn vigilantes, who would take care of any murderers, cattle rustlers or horse thieves. Eventually though, those vigilante gangs ran out of baddies to hang and so, with their blood lust still raging, they began to turn on each other.

    I will happily sit by and watch the Left eat its own. It happened with the Occupy movement. It will happen to BLM. It is happening to the SJWs.

    Eventually, we can just get some popcorn and watch the Peoples Front of Judea kill the Judean Peoples Front, and vice versa.

    110

    • #
      PeterS

      It would be so good to see the left eat itself away but that’s not what is happening. The left is eating the non-left. In HK they are now being told to remove books from libraries and schools that breach new security laws imposed by the CCP. I wonder when something similar occurs in the West driven by the far left. It’s heading that way already where some schools are being pressured to include books that promote leftism and attempts are already in progress to wipe out certain elements of our historical background. They are working through the list and eventually it will be not much different to what’s now happening in HK. Logic, justice, truth, etc. are now out of flavour. As long as we have spineless leaders in all levels of governments the trend will continue. It’s up to voters to put in place the right sort of leaders who have a spine. It certainly will not happen by natural causes. Natural causes lead to chaos; the law of entropy. We need intelligent purposeful actions to avoid the natural coarse of decay and eventual destruction. The only thing that will put things back together and avoid chaos is to be ruled with a iron fist by a benevolent dictator. I see no hope of one in the immediate future.

      60

    • #
      WXcycles

      “Sssplitterhs!!”

      Just thankful the US election BS cycle is several thousand times more tolerable than usual this time around — there is that.

      22

      • #
        Steve of Cornubia

        You reckon?

        The Democrat mayor of NY (I think it was) just gave the rabble permission to paint a giant ‘BLM’ mural ON THE PUBLIC ROAD, right in front of Trump Tower, while a US high court has backed a Democrat bid to force Trump to publish yet more details of his personal finances. Meanwhile, the so-called investigation into the Russian Collusion hoax and its Swamp connections seems strangely stalled, not that I had any expectations whatsoever that it would actually go anywhere.

        The stench of corruption lingering over Biden and his son seems to be dissipating, too, or perhaps I should more accurately say, the MSM seems to have temporarily lost its sense of smell.

        Oh, and I guarantee that, despite Republicans opposing vote-by-mail, the Democrats WILL be granted their wish, so a second term for Trump looks unlikely given the enormous number of dead people ready to cast their mail-in vote for Biden.

        60

        • #
          WXcycles

          I suppose the difference is the Oz media isn’t picking up every petty inconsequential nuance this time Steve (they usually do, it’s … it’s … !!). Websites I visit also seem to have a lot less conflicted partisan commentary. I’m not complaining, this is a massive step forwards for global sanity, if not for Democracy. Biden is the only bright spot here, but from an entertainment perspective. But if you think about Joe for more than 10 seconds it’s like your chewing-gum instantly lost its flavor, and now you’re glancing about wondering about how to surreptitiously dispose of it in some unfortunate pot plant.

          22

          • #
            AndyG55

            In Harry Potter, they had “vomit” flavoured sweets !

            Maybe “Dog-poo” would be more similar to the “Biden” flavour, though.

            21

  • #
    Steve of Cornubia

    I should add that I suspect the ‘K’ in J.K.Rowling stands for KARMA.

    50

  • #
    David Maddison

    Did you know the terms “blacklist” and “whitelist” are now considered “racist”?

    It never even occurred to me that they would be racist, so who are the real racists that constantly imagine they are?

    https://www.techspot.com/news/85080-uk-cyber-security-agency-stop-using-racist-blacklist.html

    62

    • #
      robert rosicka

      David I watch the ABC every morning to find out what I should be offended by today !

      80

    • #
      RickWill

      Last week I made reference to a “dark” figure entering a friend’s home to steal the cash stuffed into his mattresses. My meaning was that they would enter the house at night and creep through the house in darkness.

      I realised after posting that it could be read quite differently to the intended meaning.

      In the current circumstances in Victoria, there has been considerable effort made to avoid any reference to muslim in the press releases and media. The two main outbreaks are connected and primarily within muslim families.

      Pauline Hanson has been dumped from Channel 9 for making racists and divisive comments in an interview. (she did not even refer to muslim but referred to inability to understand English language). Andrew Bolt covers the story:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ameb1ZiU1kI

      90

    • #
      Maptram

      I recall a voting system for some prestigious organisation in the UK where members were given a black ball and a white ball with which to vote for candidates for membership. If a candidate received a vote with a black ball, he or she were ineligible for membership and were sais to have been black b*lled.

      And what of snooker. My recollection is that the highest points scoring ball is the black ball. That should have a colour and name change as well. Perhaps a rainbow ball.

      40

    • #
      Orson

      Talking to the U.S. ambassador, Czech president Zeman chastised the U.S. for the ongoing mayhem: “Black Lives Matter” is a racist slogan because all lives matter. https://idnes.cz/zpravy/domaci/milos-zeman-heslo-black-lives-matter-rasismus-niceni-soch.A200630_181017_domaci_aug… BLM opinion leaders are imbeciles, he added. We don’t need someone to tell us what to think
      — Lubos Motl, on Twitter from Pilsen, CZ

      Yeah. Free speech still lives in Central Europe,

      50

    • #
      Steve of Cornubia

      You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet …

      Apparently, if I call my bedroom the ‘Master bedroom’, I am a white supremacist. Seriously.

      When I was a little dirty-kneed brat in 1960s Liverpool, England and was called names, I used to sing “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.” It was often heard and was the usual response to teasing.

      You never hear that these days. Nowadays, we’re told that words are violence, and it is perfectly reasonable for a rich, cosseted adult to curl up in a sobbing ball because somebody they never met said something mean to them on the internet.

      40

  • #
    PeterS

    When you have people like Pelosi in influential offices of power making outrageous marks that support the destruction of statues with the express aim to “cancel culture” then we know the West is well down the road of self-destruction as its society implodes, especially when one recognised that people get to such positions (directly or indirectly) by public demand through the democratic voting system. The only way to reverse things and revert back to a path of common sense and logic that will prevent the self-destruction is for voters to stop supporting such people in the first place. Otherwise, forget it and stock up on lots of popcorn and watch society burn to the ground, preferably from afar.
    Pelosi on Christopher Columbus statue destruction: ‘People will do what they do’

    80

    • #
      MudCrab

      People will do what they do… right up until they vote for Trump, then they are WRONG!!!!

      Like they say, if it wasn’t for Double Standards…

      20

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Should you stop using the word “marijuana”?
    Do words matter? The “Marijuana” versus “cannabis” debate.

    “But there’s another reason to drop “marijuana” from the style guide: in the 1930s there was a conscious, racist effort by US government authorities to demonize the drug by associating it with Mexico.”

    https://arstechnica.com/staff/2020/07/when-you-talk-about-weed-do-you-call-it-cannabis-or-marijuana/

    What we need is safe smoking rooms where everyone is too stoned to talk.

    Also, there will be no smoking of tobacco, as that is a health hazard.

    41

  • #
    Maverick

    Jo’s tagline “A perfectly good civilization is going to waste…” was I assume founded on a civilization goes to waste without cheap and reliable energy. But the tagline is very transferable to other issues facing civilization. For example this issue of manufactured news which in essence is propaganda. In the West we too can “cancel” manufactured news by simply switching off, at least for the “for profit” propagandists.

    Switch off and let these lefty propagandists drown (figuratively of course), in their own muddy man-made (person-made) swamp.

    50

  • #
    Kim

    Brilliant sketch! wrt the wokists – they are very badly behaved. They are becoming aware of that and everyone around them are becoming aware of that and are working around them.

    20

  • #
    TdeF

    In a world of Terabyte memories in a fully wired high speed world, everything you ever put in the public domain is there forever. This is new. And journalism has stopped being a profession. Reporters do cheap research with google. Things that are prohibited for governments to publicise are now online. If the left hate you, they research you, find your family, friends, place of work, house and anything else. Then they put it on line. There are simply no laws protecting you from digital assault like this. And people put all this stuff online happily for people they would not let into their house.

    The total collapse of privacy, even the concept of privacy is ongoing as everything goes digital. There are cameras on most houses, most shops, in the streets. I suppose I should go and watch Enemy of the State again.

    Twitter is just a sample. Consider tracking of your phone, your movements, your purchases, your photos, your smss, your online conversations.

    61

  • #
    Choroin

    Had to watch the video half way through to realize it wasn’t actually a legitimate CNN piece :)

    50

  • #
    RoHa

    “…but now suddenly, nearly the whole Western world is.”

    You need a comma before “suddenly” as well as after it.

    “Obviously, those that can’t persuade, seek to cancel instead.”

    There should not be a comma after persuade? The rule is “no comma between a subject clause and the verb”. Is this so hard?

    [Look out for an email from me.... - Jo]

    41

  • #
    RoHa

    [Duplicate]

    01

  • #
    Speedy

    Hi Jo – A great clip! Have passed it on to some friends with brains.

    Cheers,

    Speedy

    10

  • #
    Dennis

    The Electronic Whorehouse

    Journalist Paul Sheehan

    Good read.

    10

  • #
    MudCrab

    Rowling? A grown up speaking out?

    Remember kids, “The Enemy of my Enemy is my Enemy’s Enemy. Nothing more”.

    JK was very happy to sit surrounded by her comfortable lifestyle and Twit at us about how WE needed to do nicer things. She happily sent out messages in support of all the usual SJW talking points, and they did happily re-twit because if JK Rowling said Orange Man Bad then Orange Man was clearly in trouble. JW was the bestest most wonderful person in the world who had wrote the bestest books about a young boy who is locked under the stairs but manages to escape to a magical world that most people didn’t believe in.

    (Yeah, the Harry Potter universe is ever so mildly terrifying when you read a bit deeper. Also inconsistent. Harry’s Aunt and Uncle are painted as villains when in a slightly different context they were the people who bravely protected a baby against a murderous faction aimed with abilities beyond their comprehension and countermeasures.)

    JW was very happy with her life until she deviated off script and said the wrong thing once too often.

    The main advantage of the Left is eventually they always turn on each other. Lefts think in absolutes and only team together because they absolutely all know the Alt Right (largely their own invention btw) is BAD. Their problems grow because since they know they are right and everything would be better if only they were in charge, they start to believe they should be in charge. They DO after all know best.

    In small groups they can maintain their own stable internal structure, but on growing they get to the stage where the egos clash and their organisation structure becomes top heavy. Then they shout at each other. Grud, even the recent Portland ‘New Summer of Love’ broke rapidly down because people couldn’t work out if they should be called CHAZ or CHOP and we are starting to see this in the LQWERTY ‘community’.

    LQWERTYs were fine when they were collecting together against the apathy of the straight people. Then they started adding more and more letters because the various sub factions felt they were not getting the attention they deserved. All would have been fine except the enemy of your enemy is your enemy’s enemy and if they completely agreed with you they would be you and your team.

    We are seeing this in… conversations between people identifying as trans and people identifying as gay. Gay people are more or less happy in the body they were born into and find people with similar bodies sexually attractive. Trans people tend to have been unhappy with their birth body and have taken steps to alter that situation. However what may not change is the types of bodies these people are sexually attracted to. If you were a boy who liked boys who became a girl who still likes boys then have you changed from being homo to hetro? And if you were a boy who likes boys and liked a boy but the boy then decided to be a girl, would you still like them sexually?

    These are the conversations that are starting to be had and some of the answers offered by Side A are functionally opposed to those offered by Side B.

    Left does eat itself and will continue to eat itself because they refuse to compromise on their core beliefs.

    30

    • #
      WXcycles

      Their problems grow because since they know they are right and everything would be better if only they were in charge, they start to believe they should be in charge. They DO after all know best.

      Unfortunately they can’t even grow a choko vine over a schisthouse. The reason I ended up identifying as ‘conservative’ (as opposed to Politically Conservative, which is always trying to box-in what conservatives can think or accept) is that conservatives tend to fix broken things and improve them over time. They’re effective. For the anti-conservative brigade it’s like they’re incompatible with logic. They fowl-up an break nearly 100% of previously well-working system, then make it hopelessly dysfunctional as they repeatedly attempt to ‘fix’ it, then quietly give up and push it aside to let a Conservative govt fix it again during their next term (see Oz immigration policy changes, Carbon Tax, Minerals Resources Rent Tax, Energy Policies and Defence funding and programs, for some basic examples).

      Shooting the country in the foot at every available opportunity is not actually a ‘feature’.

      41

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    An issue that “journalism” never bothered to get to the bottom of was the LGBQITR revolution a couple of years ago.

    The core issues went untouched but the journalists pushed hard for the grievance culture.

    A rough outline: nothing is clearcut in labelling people, the only real thing is the biology.

    http://joannenova.com.au/2020/07/why-its-time-to-get-emotional-about-climate-psychology/#comment-2345596

    You have to ask how many transgender people know this: I’d suspect not too many.

    10

  • #
    David Maddison

    Communism, Nazism and Fascism have come back to us in a new form with new labels known as “democratic socialism”, BLM, Democrats (in the US), The ALP (in Australia), The Progressive Left (sic), etc..

    52

    • #
      el gordo

      Democratic Socialism came about as a bulwark against Communism. Donald may call this centre left movement Marxist, but they are nothing of the sort.

      23

  • #
    David Maddison

    TikTok is controlled by the Chicomms and was discovered to be doing keyboard sniffing. Several months later what they claimed to be a bug is still there.

    https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2020/06/25/ios-14-tiktok-clipboard-snooping/

    22

    • #
      WXcycles

      So far, TikTok has not responded to requests for a comment about this blatant security issue.

      Feeling so much better about my decades-old decision of using no social networking apps. Sites that make concerted attempts at non-fiction seem more attractive. Enjoyed the way most Australians failed to acknowledge or else rolled their eyes and laughed at China’s foreign ministry trolling and threatening of Australia this week — almost as entertaining as a North Korean propaganda hissy-fit bulletin.

      51

      • #
        PeterS

        Agree. I don’t have the time to use the growing number of social media apps, which by and large are pure crap. A few blog sites like this one is more than enough. The exception is WhatsApp but that’s just for keeping in touch with my family.

        40

      • #
        Another Ian

        Re “So far, TikTok has not responded to requests for a comment about this blatant security issue.”

        They’re stunned?

        You weren’t supposed to find that?

        20

  • #
    Peter C

    Freidman Freedom Conference starts tomorrow morning!
    https://www.alsfc.com.au/speakers?utm_campaign=ata_-_friedman_blast&utm_medium=email&utm_source=RD+Station

    It is online. A cast of serious stars. I am looking forward to it.

    There may still be an opportunity to book tickets.
    https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#search/australian+taxpayers/FMfcgxwJWjBhgcPgjJlJdpVrdxZrjNvW

    20

  • #
    Peter C

    No one wants to be subject to a Fatwa!

    20

    • #
      TdeF

      Fatwa? I had one in Rome a long time ago. A sort of bun filled with pork fat, like a porchetta Romana.

      31

  • #
    Yonniestone

    I thought it was an Indonesian beer?

    Was looking forward to cracking a Fatwa.

    10

  • #
    David Maddison

    Sorry, this is off topic, but how stupid can our governments possibly get?

    Qld electoral roll ‘at risk’ after Labor govt outsources coding role to China
    10/07/2020|8min

    The Palaszczuk Labor government is being accused of “recklessly causing a security risk by allowing Chinese-based coders to write critical software for the Electoral Commission of Queensland,” according to Sky News host Peta Credlin.

    The outsourcing of coding by the electoral commission “potentially gives China access to the QLD electoral roll, and the ability to manipulate digital information around elections in that state,” she said.

    See link for rest.
    https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6170663914001

    71

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Doesn’t at least one university in Australia still teach computer programming?

      50

    • #
      PeterS

      Amazing. The left were after Trump for alledged Russian influence in the US elections without any evidnece. Now we have evidence of the CCP having direct involvelment with our electoral system. All this while China is threatening us several times over various issues. PM Morrison ought to step in and blast the Qld ALP government in no uncertain terms.

      70

      • #
        David Maddison

        Morrison can’t even be bothered stopping Do Pi Dan of Victoriastan joining up for the Chi-comm Belt and Road Initiative.

        72

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      The last 30 years have seen a significant number of labor leading lights
      Become protogees of the China and it’s CCP regime.
      Palachook’s effort on this issue just indicates depth of that betrayal of Australian people.

      32

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    So many great comments.
    This is an important thread.

    50