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For 80 years cholesterol experts said ‘eat less fat’. But where was the evidence?

Depressing. A consensus based on nothing much, still lasted three generations

And it’s not dead yet: Groups like the American Heart Association, UCSF Guidelines, VicHealth, etc are all still advising that people avoid saturated fats, and eat whole grains.

For years, people with the kind of high cholesterol linked to their genes, were told they could lower their cholesterol if they stopped eating things like butter, cream, eggs, cheese, chocolate, and even coconut oil.

A new study looked for evidence to justify that advice and couldn’t find any. They are, of course, not the first –  even in the 1950s John Yudkin was already warning people about the dangers of sugar. But the vested interests and fat-police leapt into gear, and thus and verily a million low-fat products filled the shelves, most of them with added sugar.

How many people did this consensus kill?

People with high cholesterol should eliminate carbs, not saturated fat, study suggests

“For the past 80 years, people with familial hypercholesterolemia have been told to lower their cholesterol with a low saturated fat diet,” said lead author David Diamond, professor and heart disease researcher at the University of South Florida. “Our study showed that a more ‘heart healthy’ diet is one low in sugar, not saturated fat.”

Familial hypercholesterolemia is a genetic disorder that causes people to have cholesterol levels 2-4 times higher than the average person. Organizations, including the American Heart Association, have suggested they avoid eating food from animal sources, such as meat, eggs and cheese, and to avoid coconut oil. An international team of experts on heart disease and diet, including five cardiologists, reviewed dietary guidelines for people with familial hypercholesterolemia. They say they couldn’t find any justification for health experts to recommend a low saturated fat diet.

Diamond and his co-authors say following a low-carb diet is most effective for people at increased risk of heart disease, such as those who are overweight, hypertensive and diabetic. Their findings are consistent with another paper recently published in the “Journal of the American College of Cardiology,” which provided strong evidence that food that raises blood sugar, such as bread, potatoes and sweets, should be minimized, rather than tropical oils and animal-based food.

Sugar (and most carbohydrates) push up blood levels of insulin. It’s an ancient hormone that goes right back through the evolutionary tree all the way to yeast, and in yeast it’s tightly involved with lifespan (for us too). It’s a key signaling molecule, but without combine-harvesters, yeast and all the animals in between, didn’t manage to overdose on carbs.

One day someone will write a book on how that consensus was busted. That would be interesting. Meanwhile hopefully, the cult of the expert will be viewed with even more suspicion.

80 years. Where were all the science communicators?

The paper is freely available in full.

Abstract

We have evaluated dietary recommendations for people diagnosed with familial hypercholesterolaemia (FH), a genetic condition in which increased low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C) is associated with an increased risk for coronary heart disease (CHD). Recommendations for FH individuals have emphasised a low saturated fat, low cholesterol diet to reduce their LDL-C levels. The basis of this recommendation is the ‘diet-heart hypothesis’, which postulates that consumption of food rich in saturated fat increases serum cholesterol levels, which increases risk of CHD. We have challenged the rationale for FH dietary recommendations based on the absence of support for the diet-heart hypothesis, and the lack of evidence that a low saturated fat, low cholesterol diet reduces coronary events in FH individuals. As an alternative approach, we have summarised research which has shown that the subset of FH individuals that develop CHD exhibit risk factors associated with an insulin-resistant phenotype (elevated triglycerides, blood glucose, haemoglobin A1c (HbA1c), obesity, hyperinsulinaemia, high‐sensitivity C reactive protein, hypertension) or increased susceptibility to develop coagulopathy. The insulin-resistant phenotype, also referred to as the metabolic syndrome, manifests as carbohydrate intolerance, which is most effectively managed by a low carbohydrate diet (LCD). Therefore, we propose that FH individuals with signs of insulin resistance should be made aware of the benefits of an LCD. Our assessment of the literature provides the rationale for clinical trials to be conducted to determine if an LCD would prove to be effective in reducing the incidence of coronary events in FH individuals which exhibit an insulin-resistant phenotype or hypercoagulation risk.

REFERENCE

Diamond, D et al (2020)Dietary Recommendations for Familial Hypercholesterolaemia: an Evidence-Free Zone, BMJ Evidence-Based Medicine, 2020; bmjebm-2020-111412 DOI: 10.1136/bmjebm-2020-111412

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For 80 years cholesterol experts said 'eat less fat'. But where was the evidence?, 9.6 out of 10 based on 86 ratings

211 comments to For 80 years cholesterol experts said ‘eat less fat’. But where was the evidence?

  • #
    Jojodogfacedboy

    Save a Cow, eat a Pig.
    Study from the Pork Producers Council.

    116

  • #
    Don B

    Last summer I read Nina Teicholz’s “The Big Fat Surprise” and Gary Taubes’ “Why We Get Fat, and what to do about it.” The message in those books was the message of this study. After reading I altered my diet, lost weight, and improved my important blood measurements.

    It was a big surprise, to me, to find references to Teicholz and Taubes in Michael Shellenberger’s “Apocalypse Never.” Their stories made an appearance to illustrate how experts can be so very wrong.

    421

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      I recommend Dr Malcom Kendrick’s books & blog on this.
      For years he has been writing about this fake diet consensus.

      105

    • #
      Bulldust

      Slightly different approach here. I stopped eating breakfast. I essentially eat lunch around noon and dinner around 6-7pm and avoid calories the rest of the time. I lost close to 25kgs last year (Dec-18 through to the end of 2019) and it has stayed off. This is despite two cruises during the weight loss period where breakfast returned, along with a lot of other “baddies.”

      Intermittent fasting works a charm for lots of people such as myself. The other side effect is increased testosterone, which becomes suppressed when body fat increases. It probably goes a long way to explaining the ever decreasing testosterone levels in modern western society.

      The reason the intermittent fasting works is that your blood sugar depletes while sleeping. Don’t top it up in the morning and your body resorts to fat burning. It’s less to do with the amount of calories consumed, and more to do with timing. I found my ability to consume too much food decreased (stomach shrinkage?) and carbs became less appealing.

      251

      • #
        Ian Hill

        I agree. The same worked for me about five years ago when I went from 88 to 65 kg. I’m now back to 80 kg but working on it again. The hard part is getting started.

        60

      • #
        JanEarth

        Bulldust
        Worked for me as well. I lost 25 kilos doing exactly the same. I can now eat what I want with no fear of getting fat again. These days I am down to one meal a day, lunch is basically a cup of tea and some bikkies and a piece of fruit.

        Too easy

        80

      • #
        Mark D.

        I have to agree Bulldust, I rarely eat breakfast and really never have been fond of eating till lunchtime. Also, due to a cancer now almost 20 years ago I have a difficult time eating dry foods like breads pastries and chips. Being over-weight has not ever been a problem for me. Sometimes I have to work to gain weight.

        20

    • #
      RickWill

      how experts can be so very wrong

      Experts are very rarely wrong. They are known to strive to get the answer they were paid to find. They would not be considered and expert if they were wrong.

      My son did his PhD with support from a company producing pesticides. The research was primarily about how insects develop immunity within a generation and over generations. He used fruit fly for this research as they have a short breeding cycle. In any case he got a null result with regard the pesticide under development. His research was highly regarded by his professor. He was never awarded his PhD although his research on this work and later work on cancer treatment has been often cited. He now puts his research capabilities into more lucrative business analysis rather than pure science. His expertise on insect immunity was never rewarded.

      61

    • #
      Strop

      I have read some of Nina Teicholz’s claims and posted a message on her blog asking her to justify her claim that American’s have followed the dietary recommendations but not seen improvements. I politely listed the areas of her assertions that were wrong and how her own stats didnt back up what she was claiming.

      Amazingly the moderator rejected my post. What were the chances of that?

      I sent her an email explaining the crux of my message that my posting was rejected. Many months later I got a reply to the email saying she has been busy and that I should re-post to her blog. But no answer to the actual points of contention.

      So, what does that mean?
      a) Maybe it just means the moderation of her blog made a mistake and that she is indeed busy.
      b) Or it could be that Shellenberger is correct to include her and/or she doesn’t tolerate conversation that shows her error.
      c) Or maybe what I wrote didn’t deserve a response.

      Not likely C or she could have simply said that. I’m going with B.

      31

  • #

    I have FH and have been on statins since age 45 which was 25 years ago.
    No adverse side effects and artery calcification of zero.
    I have a sweet tooth but have always engaged in what is now known as intermittent fasting whereby breakfast is small and I often skip lunch but do have something sweet during the day.
    Blood sugar very stable between 4 and 5 which infuriates my wife who is a Type 1 diabetic.
    So, provided one has no side effects from statins they are good for reducing general inflammation which helps artery health and carbs are not a problem as long as one fasts intermittently so as to allow one’s insulin to return to base level regularly.
    The old rule applies, eat anything but in moderation.
    And use modern drug technology if your system tolerates it.

    75

    • #
      PeterW

      The problem is that when cholesterol is treated as the problem in and of itself, statins become a billion-dollar industry and our epidemic of coronary heart disease, continues. Statins have some value as an interventional anti-inflammatory, but we should be questioning our dependence of a drug when a low-inflammation diet will reduce or remove the need for it in the first place. There is an increasing body of evidence that not only is cholesterol not the problem – older people with high cholesterol have decreased all-cause mortality – but that it is an essential molecule for a vast number of physical processes, including a functional immune system

      The problem with your conclusion – “eat anything in moderation” – is that it doesn’t work for vast numbers of people. One of the most common experiences amongst those who practice low-carb eating is that of trying to follow the old mantra of “eat less, move more” and it didn’t work. That includes doctors, scientists and a vast swathe of professional people who cannot simply be dismissed as deluding themselves.

      231

      • #

        A drug with anti inflammatory effects would still be a useful adjunct to a low inflammation diet. The doctors say that diet can only reduce cholesterol by about 20% which is insufficient for a person with FH.
        FH goes beyond mere high cholesterol. Even with the assistance of statins I am still on the high side of normal and so should theoretically still benefit from a reduction in all case mortality.
        Low carb eating on its own will never work because the body craves quick energy for activity during the day. If one eats moderate carbs, fats and proteins and ensures a period of fasting from say 6pm to 8am the insulin levels have a chance to stay stable. Eating too much overall and with too little time between meals is the real problem.

        28

        • #
          PeterW

          Stephen.
          You are wrong on several counts.

          1. If you have very low levels of inflammation, then there is no need for anti-inflammatory medication…. let alone a medication which monkeys with essential processes and has known adverse side effects. (Not to mention the cost).

          2. Merely lowering cholesterol has no positive benefits in an otherwise healthy body. We have made a bogeyman out of it.

          3. Once adapted, body functions perfectly well on a low-carbohydrate diet. That is the evidence of hundreds of thousands of people who have adopted low or zero-carbohydrate eating styles and maintained them for years, decades and even for whole of life..

          170

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            One of the important aspects of cholesterol is to have the correct ratio of ldl to hdl.

            42

          • #
            Stephen Wilde

            You forget that I have FH.
            I was not suggesting statins for those who have a normal fat metabolism save to point out that side effects are not inevitable.
            I remain of the view that cutting out carbs or reducing to a very low level is not necessary if one eats moderate amounts.
            I have the same experience as Bulldust above.
            Eat what you like but keep the amounts sensible and get the timing right so that the body regularly burns up enough blood sugar to return insulin to base levels.
            Very simple and very easy.

            42

            • #
              Kalm Keith

              Stephen, as I’ve mentioned previously, one of the lipedes, HDL if I remember correctly, is essential to maintaining good arteries.

              The actual levels of cholesterol are not as critical as having the optimum ratio of hdl to ldl. Check out your blood tests.

              32

              • #
                shortie of greenbank

                There is no conclusive evidence for any of that hdl to ldl rubbish, the evidence of hdl to trigs is only slightly better for example byt nowhere near being able to say it is causitive in the least.

                Stephen assumes the statins are keeping his CAC 0 which could be true but not even their (manufacturers) studies showed any real benefit of taking them outside being an older male who had a heart attack and that is if you wanted to live an extra couple of days on average with increased brain dysfunction, muscle issues and cancer being the many downsides for many of the adherents.

                The longest lived people in population studies such as the work done by Dave Feldman (using nhanes date) showed centenarians invariably had high cholesterol, it was rare for someone with high cholesterol once in their 60s to die before their 80s etc. One other finding he never graphed out publically but mentioned in a debate with a lipid hypothethis believer was than when he looked at data for statins the ones who lived the longest in nhanes were those with the highest cholesterol.

                Your body produces HDL and LDL particles to meet your current dietary requirements as boats to move important fatty substances around in a water-based solution (blood). Where FH becomes a problem is that the liver only have a small number of recepticles associated to this genetics to take certain sized LDL particles out of the blood meaning that the average lifespan of LDL particles can be quite the bit longer. This isn’t an issue unless something else interferes with the LDL particles, namely glucose in this instance. Glycation by glucose attaching to an LDL particle makes the particle smaller and denser thus no longer recognised by the liver for removal, combined with longer lifespan in the blood the LDL of FH has more association with these small dense LDL particles.

                Even then we have had a historically long history of eating lots of carbs but a really really short history of this specific type of heart attack so even the sdLDL is not the smoking gun. sdLDL is still far too large to get past the glycocalyx and glucose, despite in the short term enough to damage the glycocalyx is not enough to enflame the artery wall for the sdLDL to fit in the tight junction gap between cells (or if you follow Siobbotins theory enough to enflame the membrane enough for the vasa vasorum to grow into the membrane). This has been more closely associated with poor dietary intake of oils, in particular high intake of seed oils instead of our previous diet high in animal fats.

                There is no evidence for statins in treatment of heart disease, in particular the prevention of said issue, especially if we are looking at the creed of least harm to the patient.

                20

            • #
              PeterW

              Stephen….

              Unfortunately, just as most people don’t have your genetics, most peolle do not find it either “simple” or “easy” to restrict calories while eating much in the way of carbohydrate. That is why so many who attempt to lose weight find themselves yo-yo dieting. They diet with gritted teeth to lose the weight, then find that they put it back on.

              Just as taking a drug when there is a healthier alternative is not smart, so is following a diet that takes no account of the normal body’s reaction to carbohydrate – rapid variations in blood sugar that stimulate the desire to eat more carbohydrate.

              The available evidence suggests that the theory that “most” people can easily achieve optimal health while carbohydrate remains a significant part of their energy intake is based more on wishful thinking and a desire to justify the theorist’s own choices, than anything else.

              Of course, as an adult you have the right to make your own choices.

              80

        • #
          Van Doren

          The doctors say that diet can only reduce cholesterol by about 20% which is insufficient for a person with FH.

          They are wrong. 20% is the number based on the big trials, where half of the people don’t even adhere to diet properly. Or the diet has too much fat and cholesterol anyway. If you eat low fat plant based then 50% is absolutely achievable.

          Look, tons of people have achieved very low levels of cholesterol: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/search?q=LDL&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=relevance&t=all

          Or look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xHfGCGsIE Two men switched from vegan to carnivore and back. LDL-C went from 47mg/dl on vegan diet to 119 on high meat. And from 156mg/dl on high meat to 82mg/dl on vegan. This is life saving.

          20

        • #
          Yonason

          In the link in my post (#43) Dr. Diamond shows (a little past where I have it marked to start) data that links death in cases of FH with elevated clotting factors, not cholesterol.

          31

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      For some people Statins are killers !
      A slow acting poison that duplicates the effects seen in ageing.
      And so ignored as the quacks think it is just ageing.

      134

      • #
        Stephen Wilde

        Maybe for some but after 25 years on them I still look and feel more youthful than many of my peers.
        They improve blood flow by keeping arteries free of inflammation and good blood flow helps everything else.

        20

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Do your doctors ever mention the ratio of ldl to hdl?

          That’s an important aspect of the problem.

          50

          • #
            sophocles

            Do your doctors ever mention the ratio of ldl to hdl?

            Yes, KK but they don’t anymore. I think I embarrassed them by asking for evidence but my requests for evidence seemed to fall on deaf ears. I’m delighted by this post of Jo’s. An “Evidence Free Zone” may be why my requests have not been answered.

            I ask for papers but the titles are never found and the papers never appear. I have been lectured/explained to at length but that is not evidence.

            The link below is to an article rather than to a scientific paper. Take it how you wish:

            (Could be sub-titled “How statins harm your health)”

            https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2019/06/02/a-statin-nation.aspx?utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20190602Z1&et_cid=DM292374&et_rid=629836285

            High levels of vit-D3 are associated with high cholesterol as are higher cortisol levels.
            Both are manufactured by our bodies from cholesterol. If you have adequate levels of cholesterol rather than substandard ones, your body will make the correct levels of these substances. Why damage your body’s ability to fabricate these by driving your cholesterol levels down?

            If your cholesterol levels are higher than the body can use, it will tip the excess out the other end (unless you have a genetic defect preventing such regulation).

            It may well be that vit d 3 does more good for our cardiac systems than balancing LDL and HDL levels or lowering cholesterol levels in general may do. It’s also a good anti-inflammatory.

            20

            • #
              sophocles

              I see the scripts are still troublesome …3.2.1.1.1 doesn’t molest any sacred cows and at a count of zero, is light on ad-homs etc

              00

            • #
              Kalm Keith

              Interesting,
              my own understanding of “cholesterol” is very basic, and mainly comes from reading the book; The Queen of Fats.

              Statins seem to be in the same category as the antidepressant medications based on the SSRI mechanism which I am much better informed about.

              Relying on experts can be problematic at times especially when doctors are more or less controlled by insurance and procedural imperatives.

              Buyer beware.

              KK

              00

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          A cholesterol ratio of 3.5 recommended, i.e. Total/HDL.

          “To calculate your cholesterol ratio, divide your total cholesterol number by your HDL cholesterol number. So if your total cholesterol is 200 mg/dL (5.2 mmol/L) and your HDL is 50 mg/dL (1.3 mmol/L), your ratio would be 4-to-1. Higher ratios mean a higher risk of heart disease. Francisco Lopez-Jimenez, M.D.”

          A higher ratio implies that there is too much LDL.

          00

          • #
            sophocles

            Higher vit D 3 means a lower risk of coronary heart disease. Obtaining that vit d 3 through sunbathing increases the levels of nitrogen oxides in the skin which also lowers heart disease risk.

            Soak up the sun for your heart’s sake!

            10

  • #
    Gerry

    Years ago, 1960s I think, a doctor wrote this book (and another great book, Not All In The Mind). In the eighties he worked briefly at Pleasant View Centre in Preston, Victoria. He used his eyes and brain and hard work to figure out things ahead of his time.

    https://www.dymocks.com.au/book/eat-fat-and-grow-slim-by-dr-richard-mackarness-9781684114399?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIx8DkxfLF6gIVzAorCh3sIAw4EAQYASABEgJpEPD_BwE

    70

    • #
      el gordo

      Eat fat and grow slim, a catchy title.

      Hunter gatherers were never overweight but then came civilisation and a sedentary life style. It all began at the start of the Holocene, the climate had dramatically changed, the usual food was scarce, so we made bread and invented beer.

      The original beachcombers who came to Australia lived on a sea food diet, which obviously kept them going.

      53

      • #
        PeterW

        Gordo…

        As a matter of fact, it has been known tgat a diet high in animal fats and low in refined carbohydrates will result in fat loss, since the 1860s. It shouldn’t even be controversial.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Banting#Letter_on_Corpulence,_Addressed_to_the_Public

        It is also true the the epidemic of obesity, heart disease, cancer and T2Diabetes is a 20th and 21st century phenomena.

        To what degree that reflects the predominance of highly refined carbohydrates and the amount of hydrogenated seed/vegetable oils is still being researched, but the exclusion of both has known health benefits.

        161

        • #
          Yonason

          They may not know precisely “to what degree” margarines are bad for you, but they’ve known for at least nearly half a century that imitation butters are bad. I had a brief discussion with my undergrad advisor about it back in the mid 70′s. The discussion focused on the fact that the place in the cell where they are metabolized doesn’t have defenses against the peroxides that are produced.

          10

      • #
        sophocles

        The original beachcombers who came to Australia lived on a sea food diet, which obviously kept them going.

        Ah, the famous see(a)-food eat food diet. Sensible people, those beachcombers … :-D

        00

  • #
    Curious George

    Why do you want a justification of a medical advice? I like the straightforward approach of the National Institute of Health:

    https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/whats-new/
    Chloroquine or Hydroxychloroquine
    The Panel recommends against the use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19, except in a clinical trial (AII).

    Don’t bother with reasons. Reasons only invite troublemakers.

    113

    • #
      David Maddison

      At least in the US enlightened doctors can actually prescribe HCQ (with Zn + Azi as per the Zelenko protocol) for *early* stage HCQ infection (before the cytokine storm) where it seems to be effective. The Australian Government has made that “off label” prescription illegal.

      But what would you expect from a government that is one of the world’s most committed to the false belief in anthropogenic global warming?

      323

      • #
        David Maddison

        Correction: It’s meant to read:

        ” *early* stage C-19 infection “, not HCQ infection.

        43

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I notice this morning the drum beat of

        “only a vaccine can make life normal again…”

        is continuing, as per the globalist vaccine-only agenda….now why is that?

        I guess when you ( cough ) control the situation by creating the problem in the first place, then conveniently offering the pre-made “solution” its not surprising.

        Mind you, a RNA vaccine is effectively illegal human experimentation, as it alters your DNA….

        172

      • #
        Lance

        In support of your position, an informative video from Brazil

        “Fascinating Report from Brazil on Effectiveness of Hydroxychloroquine Treatment”

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGAlQbWCi6Y

        61

    • #
      David Wojick

      “Don’t bother with reasons. Reasons only invite troublemakers.”

      Fabulous. This I will steal.

      202

    • #
      David Maddison

      I notice the Australian Government has approved remdesivir for C-19 cases even though it is of only marginal benefit, has adverse side effects in some people and costs about $4000 per dose. Even the Chinese once suspended a trial of it due to adverse effects so it must be bad.

      Meanwhile the government won’t allow the Zekenko protocol to be used (appropriate for early stage infection) or trialled and costs almost nothing and with no side effects, and no commercial interest of anyone in expensive drugs either but I’m sure that has nothing to do with it….

      273

      • #
        Serp

        And none is available since the US has snaffled all supplies. This smacks of the tamiflu stockpiling disaster. Curiously enough neither remdesivir nor tamiflu is fit for purpose.

        60

    • #
      Rob Kennedy

      Also, “Take no notice of those dark people on the Dark Continent. What on earth would they know anyhow?”
      https://www.rfi.fr/en/africa/20200505-artemisia-madagascar-s-coronavirus-cure-or-covid-19-quackery-covid-organics-malaria
      https://drhealthbenefits.com/herbal/herbal-plant/health-benefits-of-artemisia-annua

      Re, the consequences of eating saturated fats, “What about those eskimos?” Well they used to be healthy eating lots of meat and blubber until they started eating western junk food and drinking coca-cola.

      141

      • #
        Rob Kennedy

        Apologies to Kalm Keith as he has posted below a previous link from Jo about the eskimos.

        20

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Artemisia Annua is widely grown in China
        And is a Chinese traditional medicine there.
        In the early 2000′s it was discovered to be an effective anti- malarial .
        It then was developed as a drug for use in those parts of the world
        Where the malaria parasite had become resistant to the standard anti-malarial drugs.
        This included Cambodia, Thailand Burma and Laos.

        23

    • #
      tom0mason

      Ron Clutz has an interesting piece on this and the original SARS and MERS research/tests with chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine. It was found to be beneficial.
      https://rclutz.wordpress.com/2020/07/11/cq-acts-against-sars-cv-2005/

      Also as I said on his blog –
      Back when there was just SARS then MERS, chloroquine, chlorpromazine, and hydroxychloroquine emerged as the probably the most useful and effective drugs to treat these type of virus.
      http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/chloroquine-and-chlorpromazine-among-the-drugs-to-show-activity-against-mers-95936/
      In fact these drugs were found to be effective against many virus from influenza to dengue fever — https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0074-02762013000500596 .

      What we learn is the overriding aspirations of Big Pharma is not to find methods to cure people of diseases and ailments, not to provide cost effective treatments to ameliorate ailments or symptoms but to provide drugs that can maximize

      110

      • #
        David Maddison

        There are likely cheap, effective, safe treatments or prophylaxis for early stage C-19 infection out there but authorities, especially in Australia where HCQ use has been made illegal for C-19 treatment), won’t allow their proper testing or use (especially the HCQ, Zn, Azi Zelenko cocktail).

        One has to ask why.

        Interestingly, it’s the same minister who said the BoM is doing a good and honest job and who stopped the inquiry requested by Abbott who also banned the use of HCQ (which seems to be effective for early stage C-19 infection when used with Zn).

        103

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Science, settled- Update:

    Pandemic Exposes Scientific Rift Over Proving When Germs Are Airborne

    “The coronavirus pandemic has exposed a clash among medical experts over disease transmission that stretches back nearly a century – to the very origins of germ theory.

    The Geneva-based World Health Organization acknowledged this week that the novel coronavirus can spread through tiny droplets floating in the air, a nod to more than 200 experts in aerosol science who publicly complained that the U.N. agency had failed to warn the public about this risk”

    https://www.usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2020-07-10/pandemic-exposes-scientific-rift-over-proving-when-germs-are-airborne

    40

  • #
    PeterW

    One day someone will write a book on how that consensus was busted.

    The books have already been written.

    https://www.amazon.com/Death-Food-Pyramid-Politics-Interests/dp/0984755128

    https://www.amazon.com.au/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400033462

    https://thebigfatsurprise.com/

    That would be interesting. Meanwhile hopefully, the cult of the expert will be viewed with even more suspicion.

    With due respect, that is how many of us are viewing the current response to COVID-19.

    171

  • #
    David Maddison

    Here is a brief discussion of one of the original junk “science” studies which started and popularised all this (Ancel Keys’ “Seven Countries Study”).

    https://www.crossfit.com/essentials/keys-scientific-abandon

    63

  • #
    John I Reistroffer

    I remember how Dr. Atkins, of the Atkins diet was vilified by the press and the experts. people who actually did take this diet swore by it.

    111

    • #
      GD

      people who actually did take this diet swore by it

      It works but is a bit extreme for most people.

      I read Atkins’ book in 1978, when as a skinny young bloke I realised that drinking too many soft drinks and sugary alcoholic drinks was turning me into a chubby young bloke.

      I tried his diet for about a month and it worked. At its initial stage, it’s a protein and fat only diet. This idea caused shock waves through the medical community at the time, particularly those connected to the sugar and processed food industries.

      While the idea of a protein/fat only diet sounds extreme, there is an unexpected benefit: ketosis.

      Ketosis is a buzz! After three days of eating only fats and proteins, on the fourth-day ketosis kicks in and it’s a wonderful high. It’s a high that continues all through the day. It’s a high that is signaling your body is burning fat instead of carbohydrates.

      Well-being is increased, sleep is better, concentration is heightened, you feel great, but you can’t have a fresh bread roll or those hot chips. If you do, ketosis stops.

      I didn’t attempt the Atkins’ initial stage diet after that, but it taught me about how protein, fat, and carbs affected my well-being.

      Dr. Atkins was a brave man promoting his theory of an almost no carb diet at a time when the low-fat industry was gaining strength.

      Unfortunately, the low-fat industry prevailed, and people in Western countries have been brainwashed into eating what is now a dangerously low fat, high carb diet.

      Introducing low-fat products invariably means introducing high sugar products. Reducing the fat content of food reduces the taste, so sugar is added to nearly every edible product on the supermarket shelves.

      Unfortunately, unlike fat, sugar is addictive, and consumers are locked into a spiral of buying ever more sugar-based products.

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    Betapug

    Gary Taubes 2002 “What if it’s all been a big fat lie?” in the NY Times(!) Magazine was perhaps the first mainstream exposure of the saga. Written by physics and aerospace engineering grad curious about “error cascades”, how they originate and propagate, it demonstrates the need for sensible review from outside the self confirming science arenas.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html
    Ancel Keys, originator of the WWll K-ration, got the ear of Dr. Paul Dudley White, President Eisenhower’s cardiologist following his 1955 heart attack, enlisting support for his “7 Country Study”, non-randomly picked from the 13 originally listed.
    In a preview run of “Climatism”, lipidophobia began a 65 year run as perhaps the most expensive and damaging public health initiative ever. https://financialpost.com/opinion/book-excerpt-lipophobia-and-the-bad-science-diet

    A history which details the backroom shenanigans, including evil”Big Oil” (vege that is) Nutritionist Mary Enig’s “Oiling of America” https://www.westonaprice.org/oiling-of-america-in-new-york/

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    Kalm Keith

    The fallacy regarding the dangers of “fats” was discovered when Esquimaux moving from their original habitat, and diet, found themselves in trouble healthwise.

    http://joannenova.com.au/2014/09/the-fat-police-wont-be-happy-about-this/#comment-1569683.

    The problems were linked to a change in the ratio hdl and ldl in the New, westernised, diet. The two “fats” were found to have a symbiotic relationship that had to be maintained to avoid medical problems.

    KK

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      OriginalSteve

      There is another agenda at play, namely working hand in hand with the “cattle are bad for the environment” and that a lot of saturated fats are from animals.

      So, remove animals, force people onto a plant diet by convincing them with shoddy statistics and nonsense that cholesterol is bad and comes from saturated animal fat ….

      All this to protect the globalists mythical “gaia” goddess…..these people are unhinged……

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    David Maddison

    I think there was a major change in human diet and settlement patterns when someone discovered a single wheat plant with a mutation in the rachis which is what holds the spikelet (which holds the seed) to the stem. The mutation meant that the seeds remained attached and easy to harvest rather than fall to the ground. This led to the ability to farm and create settlements and have a ready supply of carbohydrate rich storable foods (seed). Settlements also led to the ability to domesticate and farm animals. And that is how our Civilisation started.

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      PeterW

      Yet there were civilisations in southern America based on corn and potatoes……. although that’s rather beside the point.

      Meanwhile, evolutionary behaviourists argue that civilisation actually started with the cooperative hunting gene, followed by the idea that a good hunter with a surplus of meat, could trade that for better spear-points from the tribe’s best Flint-knapper.

      Etc, etc. ….. there’s no one thing.

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    David Wojick

    The crisis in science is a crisis of truth

    Recently I was interviewed and wound up saying something worth repeating. It is about the so-called crisis in science. The crisis is real but not in the way people think. It is all about the Internet.

    In K-12 and undergrad college, science is taught as a secure body of knowledge. Only in grad school do we learn the reality, that science is a realm of conjecture and debate. Now thanks to social media, including this blog, the surprising reality is becoming visible to all and many people find it disturbing.

    In short the crisis in science is a crisis of truth. How we teach this truth remains to be seen.

    David

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      Big Al

      Unquestionably, “…. the crisis in science is a crisis of truth…..” is the quintessential conundrum of the modern age.

      It is predicated on the mistaken meaning of the word ‘science’, which I’ve come to realize stands for Stupid Clumsy Imbeciles Engendering No Clear Elucidations for the thing that matters most in life, the truth. Simply state the facts to enable the truth to be revealed by a concise and reasoned argument that can withstand the rigors of peer review to replicate the science in order to recreate those facts; period.

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      RickWill

      The essence of science is skepticism. Science is a process of curious and enquiring minds.

      “Settled science” is an oxymoron. The two words are not compatible in conveying meaning.

      I am no longer amazed by the lack of curiosity in well educated people. Many believe the information in text books is pure, perfect knowledge.

      A classic example in the internet era is Sailing Directly Downwind Faster than the Wind. (sailing DDWFTTW):
      https://www.wired.com/2010/08/ddwfttw/

      DDWFTTW. An idea that 99 percent of people declare impossible. Ninety-nine percent of the rest can’t figure out how it’s done.

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        Peter C

        That was Quite Interesting!

        I am still trying to think it out. When I first watched the video, I thought the propeller was turning the wrong way. Then I read more of the text and realised it is either driven by the wheels or by an electric motor. I am still not quite sure how the propeller extracts power from the wind at the moment when the cart reaches the wind speed.

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      Richard Ilfeld

      If we choose to believe, without question, that which we are taught, then everything we know is wrong.

      (Folks who remember the Firesign theatre can go elsewhere with this.)

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    Another Ian

    In 80 year’s time who will have won the race to be

    “The Ancel Keys of Climate Crisis?”

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    • #
      Annie

      There’ll be plenty of choice. It’ll be as difficult as deciding on nominations for Pointman’s annual climate pratties.

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    Bob Fernley-Jones

    ABC admits Catalyst health show erred on fat facts THE AUSTRALIAN MAY 13, 2014

    A BELATED admission by the ABC that popular television science program Catalyst had demonstrated bias against mainstream medicine has been welcomed by health groups. Catalyst sparked controversy seven months ago with a two-part special that described the link between saturated fats, cholesterol and heart disease as “the biggest myth in medical history’’ and downplayed the benefits of anti-cholesterol drugs known as statins… … The ABC’s audience and consumer affairs unit examined the complaints and sought further evidence from Catalyst and health groups. In a 49-page report released yesterday, the unit agreed the program had not shown the required level of ­impartiality…

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Presenter Dr Maryanne Demasi was suspended and later sacked and the program was drastically restructured.

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      Peter Fitzroy

      So the ABC got it right, but was not balanced. Meanwhile we have had the Atkins and Keto diets, both stressing more fat.

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    Climate Heretic

    Read this article “The ‘Noble Savage’ Diet”. This cholesterol thing has been around for 90 years.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/the-noble-savage-diet-paleo-danger-dentist/406243/

    or “The Work Of The Weston A. Price Foundation”

    https://paleoleap.com/the-work-of-the-weston-a-price-foundation/

    Thanks to corrupt people like “Ansel Keys” use words like scam to find out what he did.

    Regards
    Climate Heretic

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    PeterPetrum

    My wife and I started on a Keto diet (low carb, no sugar and moderate levels of protein and fat) about two years ago. Not only did we lose significant weight (I went from 77kg to a very trim 70kg) but my “good” and “bad” lipid levels reversed and the doc reduced my anti-lipid medication to near zero (she was amazed as she had never heard of Keto). I have never felt better and, as my insulin levels never spike, I never feel hungry. I eat only two meals a day (late brekky and early dinner) and never have to snack. Lots of energy once your body gets used to burning fat for energy rather than sugar. Highly recommended!

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    David Maddison

    Interesting article about re-analysing old data concerning the diet-heart hypothesis.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/records-found-in-dusty-basement-undermine-decades-of-dietary-advice/

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      OriginalSteve

      Yes I remember reading about how they gave horses lots of margarine as a “health food” and a lot of the horses died from heart disease…wish I could find the article.

      The brain also consumes a lot of cholesterol…if its lowered too far, people can become aggressive.

      From

      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/records-found-in-dusty-basement-undermine-decades-of-dietary-advice/

      “In 2013, Ramsden resurrected another long-lost randomized study, the 1960s-era Sydney Diet Heart Study. Reanalyzing its unpublished data—also stored on old nine-track computer tapes—he found that volunteers who replaced much of the saturated fat in their diet with polyunsaturated fats high in linoleic acid had a higher risk of death from coronary heart disease.

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        shortie from greenbank

        I seem to remember that the lower cholesterol was also linked to aggressive behaviour in some vegans as well.

        As a companion to the Sydney Diet Heart Study is the Minnesota Heart Trial run for 5 years from 1968-73 which also showed increased polyunsaturated fats in the diet increased association with heart attacks instead of saturated fats.

        When we look at the many peoples around the world that are virtually heart attack free, and by some strange coincedence cancer is also greatly reduced we see the common thread is that sugar is not involved (but high starch can be thus glucose can) but polyunsaturated fat is extremely limited and entirely animal sourced. So tribes in Papua New Guinea, islanders of the pacific, the Maasai of Africa, traditional inuit peoples who avoid modern diets all have this despite quite a variation in diets and lifestyles. Their total input of polyunsaturated fats is limited to less than about 4g per day on average with a good mix of omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids but they have varying amounts of monounsaturated and saturated fats up to very high saturated fat diets.

        When Ancel keys did his studies he ignored previous pre-WWII diet studies on what those people ate and only included post-WWII diets they ate despite the short time they had been on it and that the people were transitioning back to what they ate before the war as animal losses were replaced. An example was Okinawa here a food study in 1939 showed they ate lots of fish, some small amount of purple sweet potato, small amount of heavily fermented soy (I think called tempeh) and sea vegetables…. and lots and lots of PORK. They had over 100k pigs on the island at the time but come 1949 the total population of pigs had been reduced to about 8k and their diet and temporarily swung to up to 80% of their energy was from the purple sweet potato previously used as a side dish in the past. By the time of the early 60s came around the pig population had returned to well above 100k again and the motto ‘Start and Finish the day with pork’ had firmly returned. Much the same can be said of the greeks and italians (though with the greeks it was ruminant animals rather than pigs but parts of Italy do like their pork).

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    tom0mason

    From what I can remember the original medical research on this (back in the 1970s?), that started this fiasco, was partly (maybe wholly) sponsored by a company aligned to the vegetable oil/fat industry.
    I just wish I could remember more details.

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    Mervyn

    Saturated fats are essential in protecting our organs. They are healthy fats, and they avoid obesity to a large extent. Anyone who doubts the safety of saturated fats should consider the following:

    1. The Inuit peoples diet is comprised of 90% saturated fats
    2. The Masai tribesmen’s diet of blood and milk is also largely saturated fats.
    3. In tropical coastal regions, coconut is a vital part of peoples’ diet, and coconut is 95% saturated fats.
    4. Mother’s milk fed to babies is 65% saturated fats.

    No more need be said.

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    RoHa

    A very long time ago, in a primary school far, far away (Adelaide), we were not only taught the correct punctuation for main and subordinate clauses, but also given instruction on healthy eating. We saw diagrams showing the Good Foods (hooray!), which were meat and fish and eggs and bread and cheese and butter and milk and vegetables, and the Bad Foods (boooo!), which were cakes, sweets, ice-cream, and just about everything we really liked.

    But shortly after that the story changed. Eggs and dairy were full of the dreaded cholesterol, and would kill you instantly. So they went into the Bad Foods.

    As I recall, it was at about the time Prof Yudkin was really hitting the headlines that it was decided that red meat was a dangerous carcinogen, so that went into the Bad Foods group as well.

    The colour supplements then told us that we should all eat more fibre. Food was supposed to look and taste like a mixture of ground-up coconut matting and builder’s rubble. But a bit later we started seeing suggestions that too much fibre could damage the lining of the colon (the intestinal one, not the punctuation mark) and lead to cancer.

    It was obvious that nothing was safe. At that stage I decided that either the nutritionists didn’t know what they were talking about, and so I might as well eat what I liked.

    (Recently my wife started researching cooking oils and fats. Aside from olive oil, they are all deadly poisons. We are doomed.)

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      OriginalSteve

      I had a home made brekky burger today…..mayo, bacon, egg and some dead horse ( sauce ) …..yum…

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Ghee made from butter, butter itself and coconut oil are ALL good.
      But stay away from any ‘vegetable oil’ – especially canola oil
      Which is extracted from rape.
      Rape is a brassica which is only fed off to cattle as it is poisonous to humans.
      But in the 1940′s some Canadians discovered that they could extract oil from the seed
      And flog it off as margarine when butter was in short supply.

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      • #
        Monna Manhas

        Margarine is mostly made from soy now – at least in North America. Found that out when I started reading labels after being diagnosed with a soy allergy.

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      shortie from greenbank

      Olive oil is also a bit iffy. Essentially ‘oils’ are not great for digestion but ‘fats’ are quite good (removal of gal bladder meaning to take it easy on volume consumed in periods of time). The main issue with plant sources of oils (even fats really) is the lack of Omega 3, the 2 we need not the one we don’t btw. Apart from excessively processed specific algae that makes that omega 3 oil oxidise (that is the vegan omega 3 suppliment) you generally do not get a good source for these 2 omega 3 fatty acids outside of animal fats/products.

      Now Omega 3 is polyunsaturated so is included in being limited in the diet, we only need anywhere up to 2g a day provided it is combined with omega 6 to be less than about 4g total for the two. Both are necessary for a healthy body but we only need very small amounts often to get the best out of it. Olive oil is about 10% omega 6, which oxidises when exposed to heat quite easily releasing aldehydes (as does polyunsaturates in animal foods but doesn’t start to oxidse as much as the oils do until cooked). For example talk of the diet the greeks ate often brings up the use of lots of olive oil, but a greek guy I follow dives into the diets of his people historically and finds that lard in some areas and in others they ate almost extenisively runimants and dairy in others.

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    Choroin

    The funny thing is that the human organ with by far the highest percentage of fat, is the human brain; at least 60% fat by weight.

    The myelin sheaths around neuron axons are built of lipid (fat) cells, and if you starve your brain, these sheaths degrade and they are actually like the insulating sheaths on wires which keep electrical signals on track for neuronal firings.

    If you starve yourself of fats – because humans have such a high brain to body ratio to support expanded functions, especially the visual cortex – one of the first symptoms is cognitive impairment; which can get quite severe.

    Something else that is widely overlooked is that the increased testosterone levels in males increase almost three fold the requirement for Omega-3 fatty acids in the brain diet, and it has been reported that a high percentage of especially young males are suffering from unnecessary cognitive impairment due to a brain acutely starved of Omega-3.

    Ironically, dietary ‘science’ and anti-fat fads claiming to be built on some sort of higher intelligence, have really done an injustice to the average IQ of the population :) imagine that! Scientific ‘consensus’ which gets in the way of truly progressing human intellectual culture, where have I seen this before? Oh yeah, everywhere.

    Life hack: Eat fatty fish like mackerel, tuna, salmon and sardines a couple of times a week and take Omega-3 supps, though of course watch out for the fish quality in regards to mercury content; high quality farmed fish is sometimes a better choice in this respect.

    Oh, and if you have a young boy, or know a young boy who is struggling at school, mention to his parents that he might be Omega-3 starved. It really doesn’t take a lot of effort and money to at least try a dietary change or supplements to see if a young man can kick a brain fog. Try it! FATS ARE GOOD, NOT EVIL !!

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    • #
      Another Ian

      Don’t forget the recent Chiefio finding that grass fed lamb and beef are also high in omega-3

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      • #
        Choroin

        True. There’s also some promising research on extraction of Omega-3 from algae farms which don’t even require the animal as a third party, which;

        1) greatly reduces the cost of production
        2) eliminates environmental impacts associated with fish farming or over-fishing
        3) can be setup on marginal land rather than taking up otherwise productive land
        4) allows for a zero-mercury content Omega-3 product

        If only we did things smarter rather than allowing ideologues who cloak themselves in ‘science’ and ‘virtue’ to control every narrative.

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        • #
          shortie from greenbank

          Omega 3s from algae is essentially toxic sludge. It had to be refined to a point where it can finally be consumed after the process is done it contains high concentrations of aldehydes, without exception, when tested (Jansson2016). Even the fish oil supplements are much the same though not normally as bad as the algae versions.

          On farmed fish it should be known that fish like salmon from Norway is essentially toxic. They have completely compromised the quality of the product with a mix of contaminated food from a toxic sea, monsanto poisons that stop the food from rotting, kept in fairly shallow water where the food not eaten kills anything on the estuary floor. Watch Norwegian Salmon the most toxic fish in the world.

          Lamb is a safe easy bet to get omega 3 in your diet as it does do so well on a grain based diet and their ratio is higher (of omega 3 to 6) than most other ruminants. Grass fed beef is still a good option as are other ruminants.If a person is worried about impact on the oceans from over fishing hen we need to increase our ruminant levels as they have shrunk since even the 1970s. Before anyone carries on about the environment regenerative agriculture based one cyclic movement of ruminants improves the soil increasing the depth of roots and the carbon depth of soil without external use of fertilizers etc. As a response a reduction in lot fed animals should be introduced which may mean a reduction or removal of subsidies to farmers that grow crops (that in the end deplete soils of nutrients and carbon) in the US for example.

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        Another Ian

        What I found amazing about that is that I’ve been around rangelands and ranching all my life and had never heard of that before. Nor had a vet friend with a similar background.

        Yet our local younger than me pharmacist did know.

        Where was the publicity?

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        • #
          Choroin

          Where was the publicity?

          I guess the media has 100% of its priorities focused on finding or creating issues it can use to bash nationalism, patriotism, and generally anyone right of Lenin.

          So much so that they just don’t care about actual progress, just rhetorical progress which creates ideological chaos Marxists can use ti berate their enemies.

          What a screwed up world.

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    nb

    Few added sugars, few fatty products, veg/meat/dairy/grains/nuts etc, gym weights, walk/cycle/swim, indulge from time to time – hey presto.
    Too much cluttered thought around simple decisions.

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    • #
      James Murphy

      I read that as ‘hey pesto’…
      food for thought.

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    • #
      shortie from greenbank

      zero need for grains, none. Same can be said of nuts and veg though with veg you could at least avoid the oils depending on your selection. The biggest lie they sell people is to eat a ‘balanced diet’. In fact the people with the least record of disease eat the least balanced diets be that either high in starch from sweet potatoes like some tribes in Papua New Guinea to the high fat diet of the inuit to the high ruminant based diet of the maasai that contains fat and protein and carbs all from cattle they manage (yes carbs as they drink a very large amount of fresh or curdled milk, though the overall % of carbs is still quite low, protein would be still fairly high in this diet).

      Diets that traditionally ate grains and nuts ‘activated’ or ‘sprouted’ or ‘soaked’ or ‘twice cooked’ or fermented them for long periods before consumption if the areas with low disease rates in the inhabitants.

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    RoHa

    Here’s a little story about Yudkin and the corruption of science.

    https://ahrp.org/why-was-dr-john-yudkin-ridiculed-marginalized/

    I recall that, at the time he published his book on sugar, he was said to be working for the Milk Marketing Board, but there is no mention of that here, and I cannot find any confirmation.

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      Bill In Oz

      I bought & read his book in 1970.
      I stopped having sugar in my tea & coffee after reading it.
      I suspect that had a lot to do with my good health in the following decades.
      I wish I still had that book but somewhere along the years it vanished; probably borrowed and lost.

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    Rob Kennedy

    Although GP’s, specialists and hospital staff in the most part do a good job from my very limited personal experience the reality of iatrogenic (medical malpractice) deaths is very worrying. Way back in 1995 the Federal Health Minister, Hon.Carmen Lawrence revealed in Parliament that it was reliably estimated that 18,000 people died in the the previous year due to medical malpractice. The Bureau of Statistics does not now publish figures for iatrogenic deaths.
    https://www.medicalerroraustralia.com/medical-disasters/18000-plus-killed-every-year/
    Also, back when the AMA was on the rampage against lawful gun ownership as it was a “health hazard” (1995 – 470 deaths, the last decade – about 200 a year) this 18,000 medical deaths was an enormous embarrassment.

    The lack of learning about nutrition in medical degrees is another huge problem.

    https://ama.com.au/ausmed/time-med-students-bone-nutrition
    “Leader of the Web-based Nutrition Competency Implementation Toolkit, Deakin University academic Professor Caryl Nowson, said doctors were at the frontline in dealing with patients with diet-related health problems, and many medical students were graduating with significant gaps in their knowledge of nutrition and related health problems, adding to the nation’s health bill from chronic disease.”

    “Currently, medical graduates are ill-equipped to identify and appropriately manage nutritional issues of patients, which contributes to increased complication rates and hospitalisation time,” Professor Nowson said. “The inclusion of nutrition within medical degrees across Australia at present is haphazard and uncoordinated, and course infrastructures do not support the delivery of a sustainable nutrition curriculum within courses.”

    Big Pharma is not the least interested in proper nutrition as a means of ensuring good health, unless something can be patented and exploited for profit. They already have a wonderful range of patented drugs to treat everything a doctor faces in daily practice.

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    TdeF

    Half the country is on statins and they do dramatically lower cholesterol. And cholesterol is natural and essential, which is why it is manufactured in the liver in adequate quantities.

    The big change in a century is the amount of meat people eat, increasing cholesterol. Chicken used to be rare and very expensive, a celebration. Most people kept chickens, even in suburban Melbourne. Lamb was universal and cheap and steak was priced in the middle. Now it is all upside down but Australia is still a land of meat eaters, like the US. Giant parmigianas which must be from Emus or with chicken glue. And I believe our meat diet is the biggest single contributor to high cholesterol.

    Meat used to be very rare in history, even impossible for poor people. The Queen of England still owns all the swans. And poachers in parkland were strung up.

    It was really the East European discovery that chickens could turn 100kg of gain into 50kg of meat in weeks which changed diets in the Western world. I remember when Kentucky Fried Chicken brought this to Australia, cheap luxury. It changed our habits. Now most people eat chicken every day. And in a country where meat is cheap, meat every day normal, cholesterol is high. No match though for America where the two sorts of omelette are the 6 egg omelette and the 12 egg omelette.

    I sometimes wonder what the Romans ate. Little to no meat. Mainly a form of mixed porridge, like everyone else. So a Roman meal meant no tomatoes, no potatoes, no corn, no polenta, no capsicum, no chilli and certainly no meat. Bread and porridge. Like the rest of the world. The flavorings salt and sugar, spices pepper and cardamon. And the pepper came from the far East, worth more than gold. As in Europe in the late Middle Ages, the spice trade, the East Indies. A top Roman feast? Starlings stuffed with pepper. Bread in the shape of a pig.

    And all that olive oil in vast quantities? It was nearly all used for lamp lights.

    The same grain diet in Scotland where the beef went to England, British Beef. As the French called them, the Ros’beefs. The poor Scots had to eat leftovers, innards stuffed with more innards and grain, which is the tradition of Haggis. The food of oppression but still better than just porridge for breakfast, dinner and tea. And dessert was porridge with sugar.

    So bring on the statins and steak. And the porridge which is also successful.

    I note statins come with a printed warning not to eat grapefruit, which doubles the effect. I remember when my parents were put on a grapefruit diet by the Mayo Institute of California. You would think it would be cheaper for everyone to have grapefruit then, but that would cost almost nothing and threaten a whole statin industry. There are natural alternatives.

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      PeterW

      The claim that meat was rare in history is rather questionable.

      The population was far more rural than it is now. In the absence of refrigeration, access to fresh meat is far more common in rural areas than urban. As for that myth that the Scots ate haggis as a survival strategy because the English were taking all the meat…… exactly how do you think the English did that, without refrigeration or fast transport? Use of organ meats was common, as was their incorporation into various dishes, sausages and puddings. Why waste good food when getting it took work and the winters were long and cold.

      Another myth is that grain is tge easily stored food. In fact, it is subject to insects, rodents and mould. Many agrarian societies ate gran and fruit in season and immediately following the season, while fattening animals on what the humans found inedible. The animals could then be slaughtered at the end of summer, at their fattest, and the onset of cold weather aided the preservation of meat and meat products.

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        TdeF

        Even when people had chicken, they were not for eating. They were for eggs. And when a chicken was killed, it was for a big celebration, like Easter.

        And the Scots were thrown off their farms in the clearances, because their English lords owned the place and wanted the land for sheep, for meat and especially wool.

        The story of the quality beef all heading South was well known. And steak lasts a very long time without refrigeration, hanging. Except for a few weeks of the year, England is not a hot place. As Billy Connolly said about Scotland, there are only two seasons. July and winter.

        Otherwise you have the standard preservation of salt, vinegar, dried, pickled. Sundried, like tomatoes or beef jerky. Oiled like sardines. Many Australians too lived on Corned Beef because we did not have refrigerators either. No one did. People had cool stores, cellars. Meat was precious and never wasted. In villages in Italy, the whole village was involved in killing the pig and wasted nothing, from the blood in sausages to the ears. Mainly dried and salted, as in proscuitto but fresh as well.

        Fish was common enough and birds, but most wild fowl was off limits. It was poaching as the poor owned no land. Even today, the Lords of England, descendants of the Normans, still own almost all of England. You only lease your house. The consumption of fish in islands like England was normal and no one was too far from the sea. Cod in particular fed everyone and if you were too far away, it was smoked cod.

        Diets were very different. Meat as we know it today was very rare. Perhaps the only common meat was bacon, smoked, dried, salted. Bacon and Eggs. The English breakfast. And considered a treat even today.

        The original rush to America was about Fish, not gold or farming. The huge and untouched schools of Cod off Newfoundland, the appropriately named Cape Cod. Thousands of British ships made the journey each year bringing salted cod back to England. And France. It was a major source of friction with the French. Life’s all about food, but at least the fish diet kept the cholesterol down.

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          TdeF

          And one little story about the American diet. The American soldiers had great food by comparison with anyone else in WWII. Unfortunately like all bulk food, it was boring and unchanging. Dried eggs and dry salted bacon. When fighting in Italy they asked the local Italians if anything could be done and we have the dish we know today as Spaghetti Carbonara. It was a great improvement and became an Italian dish. Just as hamburger was invented in America, not Germany. And Pizza, although the Italians had the rectangular version, sold in a slab sandwich, two rectangular pieces put face to face and wrapped in brown paper. I remember that experience. It was unknown in Australia at the time. Now we have Dominos and Pizza Hut to go with McDonalds and Kentucky Fried. All new food for Australians and not great for long term health.

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            TdeF

            And one last food story, a meal in Brussels, my first. I was staggered that they sold steak by the 100gms. And they didn’t cook it at all. That’s how precious steak was and is on the continent. We Australians take it for granted. And they had these very thin long chips, pommes frites they called them. Amazing. Now a staple. Allegedly because McDonalds could fill a bucket with less given that they do not stack very well. Life!

            At least curly fries have not come to Australia. I am sure they alone have doubled the weight of the people below the Mason Dixon line.

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      Bill In Oz

      TdeF.. I do not eat any chicken at all.
      And I have a high LDL
      Lots of cheese & dairy, sausages, chops, lamb steaks etc
      BTW, I am happy.

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      • #
        TdeF

        That’s really the point, isn’t it. However it is mainly the HDL/LDL ratio which seems more important than the level.

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        • #
          TdeF

          You could add a bit of fish to that list. Especially shellfish like Marron, Yabbie, Lobster. High fat but high HDL as well. And great with a sharp wine or cold beer. Or champagne.

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          • #
            PeterW

            TdeF…

            A lot of your stories don’t hold up.
            1/2 of all chickens born are male. Tgey are not kept for egg-laying because cockerels don’t lay eggs. . You need to study biology as well as history.

            Again, the Scots did not eat haggis – which is made from sheep organs, because the English were stealing all the cattle. Not only were the English not shipping butchered beef south and leaving the guts behind, but they weren’t driving cattle to England and shipping the guts back to the Highlands. Get real.

            Again… I grew up on a farm that has been in my family for a long time. Just like chickens, cattle and sheep produce 50% male offspring – 95% of which are not required to breed the next generation. Apart from a limited use as drought animals before the invention of motorised transport, the primary use for male livestock is as food.

            All grain and vegetable crops produce large quantities of material tgat people cannot eat, but which animals can. One of the reason that mixes agriculture was so common was that animals are a great way to turn inedible protein and energy into food. You seem to think that humans survived for centuries by being to damned dumb to work this out. (DUH)

            Yeah, poor people ate “leftovers”. They ate the things that other people didn’t want…… this doesn’t even go close to showing that meat was generally scarce. Just that it was more valued that some other foodstuffs.

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              TdeF

              There’s no need for abuse.

              So thanks for telling me the roosters don’t lay eggs. Did I suggest otherwise?

              No one drove the cattle to England and shipped the guts back to Scotland. You are reading things I did not say, then rubbishing your own ideas.

              And the idea that chickens, not hens were the optimum point for maximum food was an Eastern European idea born from necessity, not an English one and not in our heritage in Australia. We did not eat chickens at 4-6 weeks, but perhaps it was different on your farm?

              The yield of chickens in weeks dwarfs that of cattle or any other animal. That was the news. 50% conversion rate in 4-6 weeks. Chicken is now the cheapest meat in the country. And lamb is now as expensive as steak. Amazing.

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                PeterW

                TdeF.

                If you can’t think through the implications of your own claims, don’t blame me. You DO make those claims when you tells stories for which certain conclusions are inescapable.

                You were the one claiming that people who kept chooks rarely ate them. That’s unreasonable when half the chooks ever born have no use other than as food.

                You were the one claiming that the Scots ate haggis because the English were stealing all the meat. There is no scenario in which the English would do so and leave the offal for the Scots to eat..

                Your problem is that you are assuming the lack of modern industrial farming practices which we use to feed modern intensely-urbanised populations meant that historic predominantly rural populations did not feed themselves the way that we see such rural populations feeding themselves right now.

                You might also bear in mind that crop production has been even more industrialised and modernised than livestock production. We are far more productive per unit of land and have less wastage. Not to mention far superior storage, handling and transport. Every argument you’ve produced against meat being a common food, applies equally to grains and vegetables.

                So no, I’m not raising straw-men. Just pointing out the inescapable consequences of your arguments. If you can’t deal with that, don’t raise them.

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                Graeme No.3

                TdeF:

                When my father went to the USA (on business early ’60′s) the people there were surprised by his preference for chicken rather than steak. He explained that in Australia we ate steak for breakfast but chicken was expensive. Curiously this was confirmed within months when one of the Yanks came to Australia and was asked at the hotel if he wanted steak and eggs for breakfast (he found the well done steak different to what he was used to).

                As for choice I would point out that pigeons were ‘cultivated’ in medieval (and renaissance) England by estate holders (along with rabbits). Chickens were surely also eaten. In the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century flocks of turkeys were herded down to London from Norfolk.
                Pork only became popular in England after “the great dying of the beasts” in the late 1310′s where excessive rain (and cold) wiped out cattle herds. Beef was by-no-means unwanted but gained a ‘luxury’ tag e.g. the phrase Sirloin of beef, or a Baron of Beef. The word rosbifs (to describe English) entered French use (along with other less polite terms) during the 100 years war.
                As for shipping Highland cattle to England that would only have been possible after 1745 when the Lairds started bringing in sheep and exporting people (to Canada or the slums of Glasgow) because they (the Lairds) made more money.

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              • #
                robert rosicka

                PeterW we raised many chooks over the years for eggs and as pets for the kids , none were eaten .
                Although I remember as a child my father bought a hundred hen chicks that turned out to be roosters and as they grew in size the gig was up and a few went to the pot but many were given away or taken by foxes .

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                Kalm Keith

                We used to keep only one or two roosters.

                The rest we ate as eggs.

                Our family had chicken for lunch every second Sunday.

                30

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                PeterW

                I did a little reading. The following quote is from a history of the Smithfield Market – the main supplier of meat to the City of London and which has been doing so for 800 years.

                As the City of London expanded, so the need for meat grew and so did the market. By the middle of the 1700s, around 75,000 cattle and over 550,000 sheep were sold each year. A hundred years later, these numbers had increased to 220,000 cattle and 1.5 million sheep.

                Note those numbers at a time when urbanisation, industrialisation and transport were increasing – rather than decreasing the proportion of grain in people’s diet, especially those of the poor.
                Note also that they do not include pigs (often fattened and beechnuts in the forests) and several varieties of poultry which were also known to be sold there.
                Note again that the rural poor were generally described as living with their animals. They may have lived in single-room hovels without doors or windows but livestock were normal and where there are livestock, people eat them.

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                PeterW

                Typo.

                Pigs were fattened on acorns and beechnuts, plus other forage…. a practice going back at least as far as Saxon times, although the forest area had been much reduced by the 18 century.

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              • #
                TdeF

                And Haggis is made entirely sheep’s stomach stuffed with sheep’s pluck. I said nothing about shipping beef or beef intestines. Everything of any quality went South. How it was shipped, where it was butchered, what gender it was is irrelevant and not said. Read what you like into what I wrote.

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    • #
      Roger Knights

      “Chicken used to be rare and very expensive, a celebration.”

      Mencken wrote (in “Hot Dogs,” 1929): “When I was a boy there were only three kinds of sandwiches in common use—the ham, the chicken and the Swiss cheese. … The great majority of people stuck to the ham and the Swiss cheese, with the chicken for feast days and the anniversaries of historic battles.”

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    Kalm Keith

    Both insulin processing and “fats” are mentioned in the post.

    From post WW11 times the background biology of each has been unveiled.

    Diabetes type 2 background was slowly revealed by linking a specific group of babies conceived during what was called The Dutch Winter Hunger.

    From the neuropsychology and psychobiology I have done it is for example true that two different people can eat exactly the same food with different outcomes.

    wrt Diabetes Type 2 consider two mothers who during pregnancy experienced different levels of calorie intake.

    One almost starving and the other very well fed.

    The offspring of these two women will have insulin processing settings that reflect the need of the offspring “as determined by the mother’s situation during pregnancy.

    ie The well fed mother will have a child able to eat large amounts of calories and come out OK.

    The child of the underfed mother will be OK as long as he duplicates the mothers calorie intake level.

    If he exceeds that the child will experience Diabetes Type 2.

    Reducing calorie intake has been shown to help.

    Cholesterol,

    The importance of maintaining a good intake of hdl and ldl was discovered when Eskimos moved South to more westernized diets that were lower in “fats”.

    KK

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      PeterW

      Keith….

      How do you explain the degree to which families with similar diets and rates of obesity experience T2D?

      If your theory was correct, the fat children of fat parents should be perfectly ok….. and the children of fat, diabetic parents who reduce their weight by eating low-carb should not experience the clinical reduction in insulin resistance that is commonly observed.

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        Kalm Keith

        Hi Peter, the outline I have given relates only to the discovery of the carry through of maternal insulin setting to the baby. Presumably nature provides the baby with the same setting because it assumes that the diet will be unvarying during life.

        The process is indeed fact but relates to extreme hunger and so this accentuated the effect and helped isolate it.
        Follow-up in diabetics in Britain confirmed the Dutch original group.

        I’ve had the same question as you, and can only assume that too much of anything is not always good.

        The effect was also noted in Australia’s first people when they came out of the Bush to live in towns. They are sugar and flour and developed diabetes. On returning to their places of origin the diabetes disappeared.

        We are now overloaded with sugar and the next generation of overeaters can’t pass on protection anymore; there are limits to everything. :-)

        One of the interesting offshoots of this study was the fact that some aspects of our genetic inheritance can be decided during pregnancy and this lead to the uncovering of the process by which people can be left with indeterminate gender, incorrectly labeled LGBQITR etc.

        Events during pregnancy count.

        KK

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        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Corr “ate”.

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        • #
          PeterW

          Keith…
          thanks for the clarification.
          I see such inherited genetics as a real thing – seriously affecting a lot of people on SE-Asia, too – but only a part of the picture.

          I tend to be a little bit more sceptical because we see so many health issues blamed on genetics, that really come down to personal choices. Some of us can get away with poor choices (for a while, anyway ) but those choices are still primary.

          Cheers..

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            Kalm Keith

            South East Asia is a good study opportunity.

            One country at war until 1975 and a smaller, ferocious battle with China for a few years after, is a case in point.

            Obviously on “rations” up until about 1980, the population boomed from 43 million to its present 96 million.

            Children born during the 1965 _ 1985 period would have had mothers with low insulin usage during pregnancy.

            The offspring, now aged 55 to 35, might be prime candidates for diabetes T2 if they lived it up and went to the V Maccas or C Kentucky too often.

            The figures might be interesting.

            KK

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            • #
              Bill In Oz

              Yes such figures would be interesting.
              However we need to remember that that there was massive disruption in Vietnam from 1941
              When the Japanese seized control from the french and all trade stopped because of the war.
              And from 1945 till 1954 the French fought the Viet Minh to try and regain control of the country.

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      • #
        Kalm Keith

        A bit more.

        Fat people are a relatively new occurrence in nature and there are boundary conditions limiting every process we see.

        :-)

        10

        • #
          el gordo

          Our bodies are not well designed for modernity, but eventually we’ll come to our senses. Soft drink is injurious to health and should be avoided.

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          • #
            TdeF

            Hard drinks are even tougher. Or that was the theory. Mainly alcohol.

            I think its the idea of putting an incredible six cups of sugar in lemonade which causes a real health problem. Plus the original pick me up health drink called Coca Cola, sold in drug stores as patent medicine really pushed the ingredients. Sugar. Coffee. Phosphoric acid. And the extract of the coca leaf, from which we get cocaine. You see the the cola are the top buds of a coca plant. Cocaine was popular in Hollywood until it was banned. Lola Montez used to keep it in the heel of her shoe. If Coca Cola didn’t pick you up, nothing would.

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              TdeF

              And the modern practice of putting cheap corn syrup sugar in just about everything. At least now they are converting it to alcohol to generate electricity. The Americans are just so good at growing corn there is just too much of it.

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              • #
                TdeF

                You have to wonder, if the increase in world temperature since the little ice age ended in 1870 is natural or man made, that there should be some effect visible. WW1, WW2, windmills, Covid19 responses, the switch to fracking, massive population increase, volcanoes, bush fires. Nothing seems to have any effect on CO2.

                And there is that seasonal wobble in the graph which looks like a summer/winter cycle. Maybe CO2 levels are just sensitive to solar cycles and sea surface temperature because all those corn/wood/biomass/pellet contributions have not done a thing.

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              Graeme No.3

              TdeF:

              Coca Cola is 10.5% sugar, 0.45% phosphoric acid** (plus some citric acid), the acid to counteract the ‘cloying’ effect of all that sugar.
              The coco leaves are supplied after (almost) all the cocaine has been extracted. Yes, Coca Cola used to contain cocaine but that was before 1910.
              I have noticed that most competing soft drinks these days are higher in sugar than that, when back in the 1970′s they were more like 7 -7.5% sugar.

              **back in the 1970s there was a move for uniform labelling and below 0.5% phosphoric didn’t have to be mentioned. Some public servant in Qld. missed this exemption and Coca Cola Bottlers were “annoyed” to find that Coke could only be sold in black plastic bottles, embossed POISON, and with a label stating KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN and IF SWALLOWED SEEK MEDICAL ADVICE. I gather they brought some pressure to bear to change that. Personally I think that this should still apply.

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              • #
                Ross

                Graham, have you ever looked at the label on Milo to see the sugar content? When I was a kid (many moons ago!) it was pushed as a healthy drink for kids.

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              • #
                TdeF

                So 10% sugar? A 355ml can of coke then contains 355gm and 36 gm of this is sugar. 4 grams per teaspoon or sugar cube and you have 9 teaspoons of sugar.
                Lemonade is made from sugar syrup, largely. Though I suppose the CO2 is more dangerous in terms of armageddon.

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  • #
    Furiously curious

    David Gillespie’s ‘Sweet Poison’ from 2008, was what seemed to bust the fat free diet thing open. There were probably rumblings before then, but Sweet Poison was a major boost to people getting off sugar.

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    • #
      Choroin

      Makes you wonder whether the high-fructose industrial complex which started booming in the 1970′s as a way to displace reliance on Cuban sugar by using excess corn surplus in the USA deliberately fostered the fats are evil culture in order to divert attention away from the sugars boom which greatly increased obesity, especially in the USA.

      Wouldn’t surprise me if they did, but I’m progressively becoming more cynical with age.

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      • #
        PeterW

        You might want to check where the American Heart foundation got their funding from during that period. Margarine, Vegetable Oil. Cereal…..

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    Wayne Job

    My father many years ago was diagnosed with high cholesterol and given some pills to take.He lived on his own took the pills fell over and laid in a coma for three days until a friend found him.

    Like myself he was built like a whippet with no body fat his food supply was in his blood, this cholesterol BS nearly killed him.

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  • #
    Mark

    https://www.amazon.com/Wheat-Belly-Lose-Weight-Health/dp/1609614798

    Wheat Belly.

    Stuck with me that a slice or two of bread raises blood sugar as much as a candy bar. Tears apart the healthy carb dogma.

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      What kind of bread ?
      White bread, rye bread, oat bread, whole meal bread, sourdough bread ?
      There are studies which show that how bread is prepared & cooked is just as important as the ingredients.
      Eg Bread prepared with a sourdough starter.

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      • #
        PeterW

        Gram for gram. Typical breads seem to be close to 50% carbohydrate, by weight and there are a lot of chocolate bars in the low-mid 50s. Your body can’t tell the difference.

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        • #
          Graeme No.3

          I feed the birds. Oliver (as I have called him) is the male magpie and the boss. He loves bread but only wholemeal with grains.
          White bread and Cheese & Onion bread gets spat out.
          The pigeons, Wattle bird and sparrows will eat any bread.

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    Yonason

    Dr. David Diamond exposes the nonsense about cholesterol.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj7ldyKQnRA

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    STJOHNOFGRAFTON

    Any data on the insulin – yeast evolutionary tree?

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  • #
    Another Ian

    For something totally O/T (or maybe not quite)

    “Watching that reminds me of a story I heard about H. L. Mencken. He pilloried American culture, society, and politics and someone once asked him that if he hated his country so much, why did he still stay there. His response was brilliant: “Why do people go to zoos?”

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/07/12/i-miss-water-cannons/#comment-1336331

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    Peter C

    Waiting for Weekend Unthreaded!

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Agreed…found great journal article on the current cov19 strains around the world….

      Spolier alert…may invalidate lockdowns…

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    Analitik

    Hugh Macdonald Sinclair proved all this back in the late ’70s (and was vilified by the sugar backed FDA for it)

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1279687/
    https://www.britathsoc.org/lectures/hugh-sinclair/

    On a related note, my dad had a heart bypass over 2 decades ago and refused to alter his diet to cut the amount of butter he ate (we joked that he spread it on bread like a slice of cheese). He is still alive, active and healthy.

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  • #
    Van Doren

    What a bunch of bullshit! That cholesterol is causal in the development of atherosclerosis is very well established, we do know much of the biochemistry how it all happens. Denying all this is not better than climate alarmism. Read this instead:

    The Cholesterol Wars: The Skeptics vs the Preponderance of Evidence
    Cholesterol and Beyond: The Research on Diet and Coronary Heart Disease 1900-2000

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Ahh finally we have a real live modern dat snake oil salesman show up on the blog !
      Best of luck with that rubbish mate.

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    • #
      Stephen Wilde

      That is not the issue.
      The question is whether high cholesterol and associated artery damage coupled with insulin resistance is due to excess fats, excess carbs or, as in my case, genetics.
      I favour the excess carbs scenario as the cause for most people but aver that it can be dealt with by moderating the intake and practising intermittent fasting because that helps to eliminate insulin resistance.
      I think the problem is high refined carbs leading to insulin resistance which causes high blood sugar that then damages arteries and cholesterol is produced to try to repair the damage and over time the repairs tend to calcify. Then bits break off and cause heart attacks ,pulmonary damage and damage to many other organs.
      I also made the point above that statins are not to be feared if one suffers no side effects and has a genetic predisposition to high cholesterol unrelated to diet. For many people who do not favour or cannot stick with dietary constraints statins are a useful short cut.
      More extreme dietary measures are likely unnecessary but it is true that one can manage without refined carbs perfectly well.
      Saturated fats were never the real issue since most cholesterol is manufactured internally by the liver.

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        Stephen Wilde

        So, raised cholesterol is not the problem in itself. I never had any artery damage from my FH.
        However, if I were to have developed insulin resistance then the resultant arterial damage would have been repaired by cholesterol eventually leading to calcification and heart disease.
        Thus I believe the head post to be correct. The cause is not the cholesterol intake but rather too much refined carbs.

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    Van Doren

    Watch all videos here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHZOzR0lYzbECKm8dhiDSMA Yudkin is covered here too.

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  • #
    Van Doren

    BTW, the list of authors reads as the who is who of modern medical snake oil salesmen. Why don’t you research Walter Kempner, Nathan Pritikin, Dean Ornish, Caldwell Esselstyn, John McDougall instead? These are the people who actually had tremendous success in reversing atherosclerosis and curing diabetes.

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    • #

      Van Doren, You’ll impress more people here by explaining a mechanism, a reason, a process rather than an ad hom.

      You might also want to consider that:
      1. All saturated fats are not the same.
      2. Dietary fats are not the same as blood lipids. Evidence from blood lipid studies is not evidence of a low fat diet success.
      3. Statins are not the same as a low fat diet. Evidence of any benefit from statins is not equal to evidence that a low fat diet is useful.
      4. Most of our cholesterol is made in the liver, not extracted from our food.

      PS: I’ve read most of those authors and done the pritikin low fat diet.

      Ultimately I’m more impressed with the lowered mitochondrial damage via fat burning, low insulin pathways that appear to fit better with evolutionary history.

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        Bill In Oz

        Jo, the brain also makes it’s own cholesterol.
        Cholesterol cannot get through the blood brain barrier.
        But is very much a needed molecule in the brain.

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      • #
        Van Doren

        You must understand that it’s impossible to cover the entire topic in blog comment (heck, I could write a 1000-page textbook on this), but I’ll try to give you the big picture and a few examples (like a caveolin-1 mutation preventing atherosclerosis https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.118.038571, no transcytosis of LDL through the endothelial layer – no atherosclerosis!) later today. In the end all the evidence points towards cholesterol – how there is cholesterol in the blood lipoproteins, and how intense is the LDL transcytosis through the endothelial cells. We can modulate both via lifestyle (mostly the LDL-C) and the best regiment for that is the very low fat whole food plant base diet. Exactly as Ornish, McDougall, Barnard, Esselstein preach. On such diet LDL-C consistently falls below 70mg/dl, down to 45-50mg/dl and that reverses the heart disease. Compare that to the keto diet, where LDL-C consistently soars beyond 200-300mg/dl… 70mg/dl is considered as the safe upper limit. Such levels you will find btw in traditional and primitive folks following a plant based diet. And there you will find no heart disease, no diabetes, no hypertension, no acne.

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        • #
          Bill In Oz

          We do not eat most of the cholesterol found in the blood stream.
          Most of the cholesterol is made by the liver & by the brain.
          Common sense suggests that the body does this because it is necessary in the body for life.
          After all that’s the evolutionary process at work.

          Your hypothesis however is that cholesterol is a ‘poison’ to the body.
          And you then follow that up by demanding anyone with high levels of cholesterol
          Take dubious drugs ( statins) which operate by disabling the liver’s ability to make cholesterol.

          That to me is prima facie, shonky thinking designed to maximise pharmaceutical company sales and profits.
          And course as we are challenging Big Pharma’s profits – with common sense !
          They do anything they can to generate ‘evidence’ to support their shonky sales.

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        Peter Fitzroy

        Where does the BMI factor into this, afterall it is possible to metabolically deal with a various proteins, fats, lipids, carbohydrates, sugars etc. And there are famous studies around the “Mediterranean”, or the “Chinese”, or the “French” diets which have a different mix of the major components, but are not considered unhealthy. Living within the BMI guides is considered healthy no matter what your primary food source is. As with everything biological there are outliers (say athletes with a bad BMI) but I am talking about the majority.

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        • #
          TdeF

          I remember the Mediterranean diet, based on the low cholesterol of Italian farm workers. Lots of olive oil. I also heard that they took a set of these people and put them in town, without the hard labour but kept up the oil intake and their cholesterol soared. Studies might have been valid, but change some basic non dietary things like hard labour and the physical results are very different.

          When you have such a complex number of things, diet, age, genetic group, climate, labour, eating habits it is easy to jump to conclusions which cannot be extrapolated generally. It’s like finding taller people have more heart disease and concluding height is a risk factor, when you might be selecting Dutch or Finnish people on a fat diet.

          You get the same thing with climate. We see climate as what affects us directly, the weather where we live and we measure and record it carefully. However the narrow band in which we live might have zero impact on the planet, measuring only the first few meters above the ground on inhabited land, a tiny fraction of the planet. Often we are measuring effects and assuming we are measuring causes.

          The question is what causes temperature change across all the atmosphere and all the water. And that is vastly bigger than what we are measuring. And everyone admits the big ocean oscillations dominate the weather. Which is because most of the heat goes into the oceans and they are 1400x the heat capacity of the thin atmosphere, let alone our living space. And we can neither model nor predict those ocean oscillations, so all the Climate models are by definition completely useless. Short term predictions at best and when that fails, there is the idea that Climate Scientists, not meteorologists can predict long term climates with greater accuracy when the major cycles of the ocean are not modeled and unpredictable?

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        Yonason

        Yes, Jo.

        And, while cholesterol is probably not the enemy, statins most likely are. Here’s just one more reason not to take them.
        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25655639/

        Abstract


        In contrast to the current belief that cholesterol reduction with statins decreases atherosclerosis, we present a perspective that statins may be causative in coronary artery calcification and can function as mitochondrial toxins that impair muscle function in the heart and blood vessels through the depletion of coenzyme Q10 and ‘heme A’, and thereby ATP generation. Statins inhibit the synthesis of vitamin K2, the cofactor for matrix Gla-protein activation, which in turn protects arteries from calcification. Statins inhibit the biosynthesis of selenium containing proteins, one of which is glutathione peroxidase serving to suppress peroxidative stress. An impairment of selenoprotein biosynthesis may be a factor in congestive heart failure, reminiscent of the dilated cardiomyopathies seen with selenium deficiency. Thus, the epidemic of heart failure and atherosclerosis that plagues the modern world may paradoxically be aggravated by the pervasive use of statin drugs. We propose that current statin treatment guidelines be critically reevaluated

        So, even if cholesterol is the problem, statins are most likely not the answer.

        NOTE – I was told my cholesterol was out of whack, and the doc gave me a statin. I stopped taking it 3 days later because it was making me ill. Like Dr. Diamond, I cut back on carbs, and increased higher fat meat. My next, and all subsequent, bloodwork numbers were the best I’ve ever had. Yes, it’s an anecdote, but I’m not alone. There are just too many of us to dismiss out of hand.

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  • #
    Bill In Oz

    Herd Immunity does not exist for Covid 19 …

    A week or so ago there was a Spanish study showing a lack of immunity. after infection..
    Now a UK study confirms this :

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.09.20148429v1

    Perhaps a couple of the Covid 19 Sceptics here would like to respond in an informed and intelligent way to this research ?

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      Yonason

      This report may help you out.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcMPzatObYA&list=PLOQEt5OIWT_jUEBqfCAZiRXXj_3Oj1fS_&index=5&t=1s

      If they do come up with a vaccination, I won’t be taking it.

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      • #
        Bill In Oz

        From April 2020…..
        Almost 3 months out of date in a medical research area where thousands of scientists are feverishly working.
        And it is a criticism of Vaccines in the USA… By someone who calls himself JC .
        It has the smell of the great Covid Denier Conspiracy cult..
        Ummmm ?

        12

        • #
          Yonason

          J.C. stands for “Journal Club,” which, if you had read it, would have been obvious. It’s funny. He’s a neurology prof at a teaching medical hospital. And you are…?

          The fact that it is a few months old doesn’t detract from his message, which is about what we know about making vaccines for this type of virus, both that it’s never been done and why that probably is. I.e., it’s important background information you seem not only to be lacking, but resistant to acquiring.

          Have a nice day.

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    BernardP

    Years ago, there was a post here on this site about diabetes, low-carbs diet and fasting. One of the commenters posted a link to a video by Dr. Jason Fung, a Canadian kidney specialist. This started me on the way to revise my beliefs about fat intake, weight gain and diabetes, all of which are related through insulin resistance. My wife had just been diagnosed as diabetic with high cholesterol. This new understanding was a turning point.

    For those interested, Dr Jason Fung has since published two books that I am glad to recommend, in that order:

    - The Obesity Code
    - The Diabetes Code

    Dr. Fung has also contributed to other books, with other authors, but the two above are enough to go to the bottom of things. Other books contain only repetitions.

    … and finally, cholesterol is a red herring. It’s not something to worry about. There is a lot of good writings on the subject. One of my favorites is “The Great Cholesterol Con” by Dr. Malcolm Kendrick.

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    Yonason

    If high cholesterol reduces my chance of dying from heart disease, why do some “experts” think that’s a bad thing?
    https://youtu.be/yX1vBA9bLNk?t=1729

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      Stephen Wilde

      Although high cholesterol does not in itself appear to stick to artery walls in the absence of inflammation caused by insulin resistance and high glucose levels it does increase the viscosity of the blood which increases the clotting factor.
      When my FH was at a peak before statin use the pathologist said that my blood sample looked ‘oily’.
      So, high cholesterol can be dangerous to some extent but does not cause artery damage or atherosclerosis. For those conditions to occur one first needs insulin resistance from too much refined carbs and then high cholesterol aggravates the condition.
      But either way dietary cholesterol is not the issue because most of it in the blood is produced in the liver.
      To avoid insulin resistance it is not necessary to go for an extreme low carb diet. As long as there is also intermittent fasting the system will reset the insulin output to one’s base setting. High carb consumption with no fasting results in no resets and a permanently elevated glucose level and eventual diabetes.
      Once one has diabetes which is not tightly controlled then inflammation of the artery walls will lead to cholesterol deposits and atherosclerosis even if the cholesterol level is in the normal range. High cholesterol will accelerate the problem.
      Once one has arterial inflammation the matter of ldl or hdl becomes irrelevant. The protective aspect of hdl does not help against arterial inflammation.
      So, in the end, very high cholesterol is a problem from raised clotting factor but the real damage is caused by insulin resistance and diabetes.
      Statins have their uses in reducing the clotting factor and reducing arterial inflammation from high glucose levels.
      One of the reports linked to above points out that a mutated gene causes the liver to produce more cholesterol so as to produce FH.. In such cases statin use is helpful provided the system tolerates it.
      For most people, the liver will never produce enough cholesterol for the blood viscosity to be a significant risk factor. In their case the issue will be high refined carb consumption leading to insulin resistance, inflamed and damaged artery walls and subsequent atherosclerosis.
      If one wishes to avoid statins whilst indulging in high carb consumption then intermittent fasting is an option.
      Ideally, reduce carbs instead but many people are addicted and cannot do that. In those cases statins are useful even in the absence of FH.

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        Van Doren

        Cholesterol doesn’t STICK to the wall, it is transported through the endothelial cell via transcytosis, which is highly complex biochemical mechanism, after that lipoprotein containing ApoB gets trapped in the elastic membrane beneath the endothelial layer. After that it becomes oxidized and consumed by a macrophage, that becomes a foam cell with the time. After that cholesterol accumulates in the foam cell, which becomes a fatty streak, a plaque… HDL can get cholesterol out of the foam cell, so the whole thing is actually a race between LDL in and HDL out. LDL-C strongly drives transcytosis, inflammation increases transcytosis too. Estrogen decreases it – that’s why women get less heart disease. Diabetes works in two ways: if liver is insulin resistant, then insulin doesn’t work and can’t destroy ApoB, therefore more cholesterol can be secreted into blood inside of LDL/VLDL. High blood sugar also drives transcytosis, since endothelial cells have insulin-independent glucose transporter. More glucose – autophagy is suppressed – caveolin-1 is not destroyed, more caveolae – more transcytosis. I could go on like this forever. I could supply citation for each and every claim. Everything, absolutely everything boils down to only two thing – how much LDL is in the blood, and how much LDL will be transported via transcytosis into the arterial wall. That’s all it is. Cholesterol is the one and only culprit. Carbs are completely innocent and low fat vegan diet is the key to success.

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          Bill In Oz

          Ahhhh . Now I see your agenda…
          Promote the cause of veganism !

          There are lots of dead vegans
          Waiting for the miracle of resurrection.

          :-)

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            Van Doren

            I don’t have any agenda, I’m not even a vegan myself – I eat fish, and very occasionally may eat something else. But generally I stick to 80/10/10 plant based very low fat food because it’s the healthiest way to eat.

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            Bill… you ignore everything he wrote perhaps because it mumbo jumbo designed to confuse you, and searched for something, anything to pin an agenda to it so as to discredit it (in your eyes at least). I’d call that a vexatious comment.

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          shortie from greenbank

          there are virtually no detectable macrophages until long time after a build up of LDL particles occur. Athersclerosis is already well advanced by the time the cleanup party arrive to capture those near the endothelial. So either the mechanism works much as you describe but the foam cells are cleaned up until saturation of the entire layer means it is no longer able to keep up with foam cell production. This would mean LDL isn’t the issue as there is a mechanism to continually clean it up. What is causing the LDL to travel from the blood would be and also that LDL is often highly associated with longer life in later years in studies done in nursing homes…. or even nhanes data.

          https://i1.wp.com/breaknutrition.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/arterylayers.png?resize=693%2C872&ssl=1

          Why this doesn’t happen in all arteries and veins? This leads creedence to the outside—> in idea as this seems to be an issue with arteries with their own specialised blood supply (in both theories the Vasa Vasorum extend further into the layer to supply blood as it thickens). most blood vessels have a thin layer and no need for vasa vasorum type supplies.

          Lastly I’ve seen plenty on the idea sdLDL as being small enough to move into those spaces but the size difference may preclude normal functional LDL from doing this.

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            Van Doren

            Why this doesn’t happen in all arteries and veins?

            Differences in the composition of the elastic membrane (arteries have more chondroitin sulfate) and in the expression of caveolin-1 and other caveolae related genes. The latter also explains plaque location in arteries – more caveolae under stress.

            There is also absolutely zero proof for the vasa vasorum hypothesis.

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            Van Doren

            there are virtually no detectable macrophages until long time after a build up of LDL particles occur

            Smooth muscle cells can also form foam cells: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/ATVBAHA.119.312557

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            Van Doren

            What absolutely disproves the vasa vasorum hypothesis is that caveolin-1 knockout completely inhibits atherosclerosis – no atherosclerosis without LDL transcytosis through the endothelial layer!

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735117/

            It was also shown many times that low blood cholesterol reverses atherosclerosis.

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    Stephen Wilde

    High blood sugar drives transcytosis.
    If liver is insulin resistant then less ApoB is destroyed.
    Too many carbs cause insulin resistance and high blood glucose which results in more cholesterol deposits.
    So, on the basis of your account carbs are the precursor to all that follows ?

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      Van Doren

      Too many carbs cause insulin resistance

      Nope. Insulin resistance is caused by fats. Read “Mastering Diabetes” – it’s the best book on diabetes I know. https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/

      This was known for quite some time by now https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14641015/

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        shortie from greenbank

        It isn’t ’caused by fats’, it is a lesser possible vector especially in the context of the randle cycle where you have competition between glucose and fatty acids. By lowering glucose then fatty acids are not treated as such. Lowering fatty acids can also resolve this but when tested in longer terms the higher carb diets tend to falter more than lower carb higher fat diets.

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          Van Doren

          Insulin resistance is caused by IRS-1 inhibition through the diacylglycerols via protein kinase C after a few days of high-fat diet. DAGs accumulation is caused by high level of NEFA in blood. NEFA is strongly elevated on high-fat diet or in obese persons.

          For a minute I thought you know something, but, obviously, you are completely clueless.

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    shortie from greenbank

    So high fat diets could not possibly help ‘fix’ a T2 Diabetic?

    We know that to be false. Demonstratably so, abuse from you or otherwise does not change that result no matter how much ideologically you want it too. FFA or NEFA still show that people are no longer diabetic in large numbers when abopting a low carb high healthy fat diet when the lab results come out in reality months later.

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