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Some South Australian farmers going fully diesel for electricity

Diesel generator.  Coupole d'Helfaut in 1944,

Maybe they’ll get one like this one? ;-) Circa 1934.*

Green management of the South Australian grid scores another big success for the environment:

The Manns’ electricity costs have more than doubled in five years, from about $200,000 per annum to $500,000.

Due to the high prices, the family will this summer switch to diesel power to run their 116-stand rotary dairy and 14 irrigation centre pivots at Wye in the lower south east of South Australia.

The Manns are among Australia’s top 10 dairy producers, in terms of volume, milking up to 2300 cows and producing 19-21 million litres annually.

If only South Australia had more “cheap” solar and wind power, their electricity might be as low cost as the coal-fired Victorians:

Their move comes as South Australia’s dairy lobby has calculated the state’s dairy farmers paid about 40 per cent more for power than their Victorian neighbours last season.

The Mann’s are definitely going diesel this summer, but may set up a mixed solar-diesel-battery plan in the long run:

“Its embryonic, but information we have is saying we could get a payback within five years of (setting up a system on-farm) not connected to the grid, a combination of solar, diesel and batteries.

Imagine how expensive your electricity has to be for a small diesel generator to be cheaper than mass produced coal power? This could be the first time in 130 years that people connected to coal turbines switch off to use their own small fossil fueled generators because it’s cheaper.

Another world first for South Australia. And possibly a mark of the grid saturation point of intermittent renewables.

h/t Keith S

*Electric generator ( diesel engine and alternator ) installed in the underground worksite of the Coupole d’Helfaut in 1944. Photo Vassil

Diesel generator.  Coupole d'Helfaut in 1944,

Maybe they’ll get one like this one? ;-) Circa 1934.*

Just for fun: This is a three cylinder Allen S47 engine made in 1935. See someone start one up here. According to one commenter they can generate 250Hp. Image: Andy Dingley

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Some South Australian farmers going fully diesel for electricity, 9.6 out of 10 based on 98 ratings

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233 comments to Some South Australian farmers going fully diesel for electricity

  • #
    Tim

    The government will probably find a reason to prosecute and fine them, and then drive them out of the Country. Now when did that last happen??

    522

    • #
      RickWill

      The beauty of private ownership of the grid scale solar and wind assets is that the owners are the losers as the consumer base reduces. Of course those stuck on the grid have to take a bigger burden of the cost until they are sucked dry then the grid collapses. The government is left with supporting some form of power supply. Maybe supermarkets or car park owners will assist with low cost power.

      111

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        AGL executives surely know that. It seems that their only concern is to maintain and grow their market share, even if the market shrinks.

        I see their renewables ad and declarations about Liddell as being as much a challenge to the government as anything else. “You won’t dare abolish this subsidy scheme because the resulting losses of savings already invested there would see you wiped out at the ballot box.”

        Sovereign risk, they call it. And they don’t even know the meaning of the word.

        121

        • #

          Ted O’Brien mentions this:

          AGL executives surely know that. ….. I see their renewables ad and declarations about Liddell…..

          While they own Liddell, they also own Bayswater, and that will most definitely NOT be closing any time soon, or even in the longer term.

          I see this talk about Liddell more along the lines of them weaseling out of their responsibility to clean up the site back to pristine, either by (cunningly) getting around it by starting a kerfuffle which may eventuate in a buyer being found for the Plant, thus shifting that enormous cost of rehabilitation to another entity.

          Either that, or as they (perhaps disingenuously) say, they might construct replacement power, using that same site, again moving that rehabilitation process downstream in years.

          However, any replacement they might construct will not be the same, eg, like for like in the manner of power generation. They have mentioned that they will replace the lost power, and you can bet that will be artfully achieved by using Nameplate (the 2000MW of Liddell’s Nameplate) either by Wind or Solar at other locations, and then putting up a token gas fired plan on the site of Liddell, and by token, anything less than the 2000MW Nameplate of Liddell is just that, a token response.

          Back in 2008/9/10 there were detailed plans in place for a new plant of 2000MW to be constructed alongside, and operating with Baysater, and this was from the former owners, the State Government’s Macquarie Generation, plans that through dithering, then failed, and it was all sold off to AGL.

          However, those plans, while they included the USC coal fired option, a second option was for gas fired power of the same Nameplate, and that would be similar in nature, CCGT, which could be used to supply a constant and reliable power supply.

          All the planning was in place for either option, and the gas was to be sourced from the Southern Queensland gas fields, via pipeline.

          If AGL now say they are closing Liddell, they could conceivably revive that proposal, albeit on a smaller and token manner, construct a CCGT gas fired plant at Liddell, and in the end look like a responsible corporate entity, fulfilling a pledge to replace that lost Liddell power ….. adding it to the Nameplate of its renewables at other sites, and, at a further much later date, say that they are getting out of fossil fuels altogether, selling it off, and effectively weaseling out of ANY rehabilitation to that site at all, after all this current kerfuffle wears itself out.

          This all smells, if you’ll excuse my saying it. I still don’t think AGL are genuine in passing themselves off as good governors of the environment. There’s a good reason they are doing this now, and I bet it has more to do with the money that the environment.

          Tony.

          411

          • #
            Truthseeker

            I have moved from AGL to another energy company due to this stupid decision of theirs. When I was contacted to confirm my intent and ask why I told them in no uncertain terms. The person on the other end of the phone gave me the impression that I was definitely not the only person had done this for this reason.

            200

          • #

            Tony have you seen this from the recent sustainability report data from Origin
            GENERATION PORTFOLIO [REPLICATED FROM OFR]
            YEAR ENDED
            30 JUNE 2016
            NAMEPLATE
            PLANT
            CAPACITY
            (MW)
            TYPE1 EQUIVALENT
            RELIABILITY
            FACTOR
            (%)2
            CAPACITY
            FACTOR
            (%)
            ELECTRICITY
            OUTPUT
            (GWH)
            POOL REVENUE
            ($M)
            POOL REVENUE
            ($/MWH)
            Eraring 2,880 Black coal 89.6% 55% 13,882 1,197 86
            Darling Downs 644 CCGT 99.0% 55% 3,129 342 109
            Osborne3 180 CCGT 100.0% 59% 937 124 132
            Uranquinty 664 OCGT 99.7% 10% 588 108 183
            Mortlake 566 OCGT 98.9% 22% 1,086 122 112
            Mount Stuart 423 OCGT 84.6% 2% 71 53 741
            Quarantine 224 OCGT 98.7% 13% 257 58 226
            Ladbroke Grove 80 OCGT 98.2% 26% 185 35 188
            Roma 80 OCGT 97.5% 6% 39 13 332
            Shoalhaven 240 Pump/ Hydro 90.5% 6% 117 22 192
            Cullerin Range4 30 Wind 93.0% 48% 4 0 91
            Internal
            Generation
            6,011 91.9% 20,295 2,073 102
            Renewable PPAs 732 Solar/Wind n.a. 32% 2,105
            Owned and
            Contracted
            Generation
            6,743 22,400
            1 OCGT = Open cycle gas turbine; CCGT = Combined cycle gas turbine.
            2 Availability for Eraring = Equivalent Availability Factor (which takes into account de-ratings).
            3 Origin has a 50 per cent interest in the 180 MW plant and contracts 100 per cent of the output.
            4 The sale of the Cullerin Range wind farm completed in July 2016.

            It looks better in a table.
            Maybe AGL has a similar report. My super fund has some shares in Origin so I could access it. I believe that the document is a public document forwarded to the ASX. I and the fund have no AGL shares but it maybe available on the AGL shareholder site or through ASX.

            The interesting point is that Eraring is only run on average for the yer at 55% of capacity but when it is running it has an availability of 89.6% Eraring is one of the better base load coal powered stations. The Qld stations are better operated.

            40

            • #
              Cementafriend

              A couple of thingS to note. 1. Eraring has the lowesr revenue per MW that is why it is not run at high capacity for the year. Have a look at Mt Stuart it is only run at 2% (as need) when thr price id high. Similarly with the hydro. All this is because of RET accepting domestic solar first then other renwables which are all subsidiSed. Origin could run Eraring at say 95% capacity making the electricity price lower than wind or solar which would drop out if RET eliminated and subsidies withdrawn. They could run their ccgt at higher capacity also lowering the price (ccgt are about 50% more efficient than ocgt)
              I suggest if RET and subsidies went tha there would be lower electricity prices and more gas available.

              20

          • #
            Analitik

            If AGL now say they are closing Liddell, they could conceivably revive that proposal, albeit on a smaller and token manner, construct a CCGT gas fired plant at Liddell, and in the end look like a responsible corporate entity, fulfilling a pledge to replace that lost Liddell power ….. adding it to the Nameplate of its renewables at other sites, and, at a further much later date, say that they are getting out of fossil fuels altogether, selling it off, and effectively weaseling out of ANY rehabilitation to that site at all, after all this current kerfuffle wears itself out.

            No, AGL are betting on government subsidies/tax breaks to help fund the full capacity replacement CCGT plant (probably a bunch of frame generators) for Liddell as they know full well that the renewables won’t cut it and they can get premium electricity pricing with a CCGT plant, especially since a frame CCGT can operate in peaking (open) mode for when renewables fluctuations cause price spikes.

            The whole “getting out of fossil fuels” claim is just PR spin to keep the “green” investment community from pulling out of their shareholdings. Notice that there us absolutely no time frame given whenever this claim is made.

            10

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      They will indeed. And it won’t take much more than five minutes!

      With Greens policy prevailing at every turn, the next step will be to apply the fuel tax which is levied on road using vehicles, which the Greens claim is really a subsidy, with a surcharge for the RET,

      That will about double the price of their fuel.

      150

    • #

      when did it Tim? There was the Chinese about 100 years ago under the White Australia policy I suppose. Is that what you mean? Or was it shifting refugees offshore more recently?

      218

      • #
        Robert Rosicka

        If I may answer for Tim , I think Gee Aye you will find that a swimming pool and a coconut was the last time .

        81

        • #
          • #
            Dennis

            Those Dogs that were illegally brought into Australia and not declared, but sighted by Customs Officers who issued a deportation order?

            MSM then asked Minister Joyce (he does not patrol airports and ports personally) about the matter and he pointed out that there was the option of putting them to sleep if the owners did not cooperate.

            As usual the story was then blown out of all proportions and those not so bright people who think other people are stupid repeat the story when they see an opportunity.

            122

    • #
      Chris In Hervey Bay

      Wasn’t it Matt and Janet Thompson who had a feed lot in Western Australia and were forced to return home to the USA because of “green” trumped-up regulations ?

      130

  • #
    Roger

    Greenies are starting to achieve their aims – the destruction of industries and business.

    Shame that politicians are walking hand in hand with them to deliver these ‘Green Goals’.

    522

    • #
      Leonard Lane

      Roger, thanks for the comment. Driving dairy industries to diesel powered generators appears to be a giant step backward in efficiency and air quality. So what is the answer?
      Are the voters of SA educable? Or will the left/green politicians give them enough bread and circuses to continue the downward spiral?

      421

      • #
        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        Morning LL,
        Don’t worry. Premier Weatherill will fix it. A referendum to change the electoral boundaries will guarantee the downward spiral and give his version of power certainty.

        http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-28/sa-government-wants-referendum-on-electoral-boundaries/8998774

        Cheers
        Dave B

        80

      • #
        Crakar24

        Sorry Leonard SA voters are as dumb as a box of ball pein hammers. Mind you the opposition leader is a labor plant to make them look good. Expect more of the same until the state grinds to a halt and sucks in over 50% of the gst revenue

        61

      • #
        John PAK

        On an optimistic note diesel generators run well on bio-diesel which is easy to make if you can grow enough oil seed rape/canola and with hydrogen/oxygen augmentation from water electrolysis, can be tuned to burn 25% less diesel. While bio-diesel is expensive to produce the costs are largely time and effort rather than cash out-lay and the 25% saving starts looking quite attractive when talking about annual costs of $40k p.a on diesel.

        00

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Not only the breaking down of citizens to acquire personal wealth but the control of means of production, look at every major industry that is driven under or overseas due to big government economics they all had some offer or idea put forward by their state government to either subsidise or take over the business in some form to “assist in retaining jobs”.

      As the real power over growth increases in this country which is the public service sector we will see the emergence of a socialist economy where private enterprise is allowed but the product is controlled in its distribution, who ever has complete power over this system will be our dictator of the day visible or not.

      291

      • #
        Roger

        “who ever has complete power over this system will be our dictator of the day visible or not”

        That is until a nation’s economy crashes and Venezuela style government arrives … and then it will be pretty “unpleasant” in a number of countries.

        Socialist marxists obtain and try and hold on to power by extending the state, creating a dependancy culture amongst the people and dumbing down of education and flattening personal ambition to a point where the majority have to rely upon state handouts and will vote for those who offer the biggest freebies.

        That works until the economy crashes as it always does with that kind of politics. I have always viewed it as evil because it tries to distort people back into serfdom, serfs who are bound to the state and have their personal ambitions and potential for prosperity taken away from them.

        I don’t remember a time in British politics where there was so much hatred, vitriol and violence from the Left wing – the same seems apparent in the USA. From looking back at history it seems more reminiscent of the violent political divides of the 1930′s and I’m not sure where it is taking us at the moment and how it is going to develop.

        320

        • #
          Yonniestone

          The left always will be personally weak people that only acquire some comfort in the act of reducing others to their level or lower, even in recent times of great human growth and relative peace these ingrates could only focus on removing it and implementing a subversive plan of deconstruction.

          The greatest threat to leftism is people that are educated, confident, happy, patriotic and free, all things that government and its increasing public services sector are controlling at alarming rates, the last bastion of free speech the internet is already under attack so an alternative version is needed, perhaps the world will be divided on what electronic media you prefer creating new types of virtual borders.

          170

          • #
            Roger

            “Progressive” policies promoted by the left-wing Marxist control-freakery are better described as ‘pregressive’.

            They are the precursor, the Trojan horse of the regression of the human condition and of civilisation and democracy as we know and understand it.

            The true battle facing mankind in the 21st century is how to maintain, preserve and to restore Democracy where necessary – in the EU and elsewhere.

            Democracy is under unprecedented attack, distortion and subversion from both globalists and the left-wing Marxists who have aligned themselves behind and in hand with the Green Blob to destroy true democracy.

            190

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              And this is why the 2nd Ammendment was created in the USA.

              If it comes to it, the Americans will literally throw out anyone ( including govts ) who tries to lock them down in slavery.

              60

        • #
          Mark D.

          A couple of hurricanes and an earthquake happen and we don’t even hear about Venezuela.

          Sorry for them that we are so easily distracted….

          70

          • #

            North Korea is probably the main international distraction but it is a good point. Do you hear about Myanmar in your corner of the world? At least here the coverage is starting to match the situation’s gravity although arguably late.

            26

            • #
              toorightmate

              Yes, we hear about Myanmar quite frequently, but we didn’t hear much for the 10 years that mossies were beheading and raping in the south of the country to their heart’s delight.
              The left wing press seems to think that’s OK.
              However, the true blue Burmese did not think it was OK.
              They have had a gutful of the mossies, and rightfully so.

              100

              • #
                Robert Rosicka

                Mate that’s brilliant and although maybe unintended also applies to the banning of that pesticide that was killing mosses spreading malaria .

                10

      • #
        Dennis

        Communist China style.

        70

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        For the benefit of those who haven’t realised it yet, Wealth = Savings.

        Wealth is not just something that somebody else has.

        120

    • #
      Robert Rosicka

      The way they’re going the only business still running in SA will be Government.

      170

      • #
        James

        A state government cannot print money, like a federal government. So as tax revenues collapse, the federal government will have to bail out the state. They will get tired of that soon enough!

        70

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          Well, in Western Australia we’re already bailing out South Australia with a massive transfer of GST revenue.

          The States (and Territories) which are the recipients, think that’s OK. That’s Australian equity for you.

          And Turnbull and the Liberal Government sits on their hands, refusing to take any action to change the situation. It’s public policy madness.

          Fortunately Western Australia is not connected to the NEM, so that rip-off has been quarantined to the Eastern States. Rightly so, since it’s all their own doing.

          130

          • #
            yarpos

            WA not so much gloating about resources these days and sniffing at the “rustbelt” States. Billions well spent during the boom though.

            21

            • #
              Sceptical Sam

              Mate, the reason the “rustbelt” states are rustbelt states is because they surrendered to the green-left Marxists and locked up their resources.

              Hence the energy problems that industry is facing. Hence the increasing prices. And hence the need to take GST from WA which has not locked up its resources.

              WA never “sniffed” at anybody. The carpetbaggers from over East couldn’t get on the plane quick enough to get over here and grab some quick dollars. They’ve left now to live on the public teat back over East. Subsidised by the WA taxpayer.

              100

            • #
              Graeme4

              WA only receives 10% of the mining royalties, the other 90% going to the other states. So we never made that much money from iron ore mining.

              40

        • #
          Robert Rosicka

          James I’m sure if there were votes in it the government would be only too happy to bail them out .

          40

        • #
          Mark D.

          Says James:

          A state government cannot print money, like a federal government.

          Are you sure?

          My City is upside-down with obligations to retired employees and their promised benefits.

          Describe for me the difference between the financial effect of printing money and the financial effect of obligating future generations with debits from the past?

          Please provide much detail.

          40

          • #
            James

            The difference is a federal government has a reserve bank which can credit it self money out of thin air, then lend to the federal government to pay for its deficit. That way a federal government can create its own money, plus have un funded liabilities like the state government.
            State governments have to find willing buyers for its bonds, plus have unfunded liabilities!

            20

          • #
            Ted O'Brien.

            Mark D.

            Journalists sometimes ask silly questions. Back in the 1980s a journalist asked NSW ALP treasurer Ken Booth what I thought was a silly question: What if the state becomes bankrupt?

            The reply: It’s not possible for a state to become bankrupt!

            So the question wasn’t silly after all.

            NSW was saved from that policy by the election of the Greiner government. But Victoria, South Australia and Western Australia all subsequently suffered the consequences of that policy. All, from memory, having the damage maximised by governments which called and won early elections before word of the impending bankruptcies got out.

            Whether or not state governments can print money, what matters is that the ALP believes that they can.

            10

        • #
          Crakar24

          Whilst the oz gov like the us have the capacity to print money they don’t they pay $hit tins to a bank.

          Of course some president did try but they where met with unfortunate events

          20

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      When pretty much every politican becomes toxic to their own country ( by virtue liberal and labor and greens are all working together, it seems ) , you need to consider Soverign Risk being a possibility.

      At this point, not voting for any of the 3 main parties puts the power back in our hands, if all of them are removed from power and arent allowed near the levers of power, we are in control.

      This suggestion might sound “radical” but the problem we are facing is also radical.

      For a long time I have been warning everyone here that they are all the same party, just with different “wrappers” to create the illusion of democracy. Without the *illusion* of “choice” people would riot.

      People are also self deluding – they believe that by pretending the reality isnt, it will go away. Thats like digging a hole in the middle of a freeway and sticking your head in it and thinking a truck wont make a “bonnet mascot” of you….

      As Sherlock Holmes is quoted :

      “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

      120

      • #
        Robert Rosicka

        That it Steve , we each have a vote and I may be assuming a lot here but mainly leaning to the right but that side has abandoned us in favour of being more leftoid like Labor and Green .
        We need to punish all three at the ballot box by voting elsewhere but making our vote count by not donkey voting ( although if a donkey was standing for election we would be better off) and choosing the minor party wisely.

        50

        • #
          James

          We have them in the US. It’s called the Democrat party. We also have elephants, called the Republican Party. We are discovering that there is not much difference between them. Thankfully we do not have party preselections, we have primary elections, so we can boot out old incumbents and replace them. Some are going quietly and are not running again, rather than losing in a primary.

          81

        • #
          clive hoskin

          Robert,that is a better idea.Doing the”Donkey”won’t stop one of the”Big Three”from getting in.WE have the choice ofCory ,Pauline or one of the Independents(they must be vetted because Labor have a bad habit of putting up so called Independents,who are not so)

          10

  • #

    Jay Weatherill to be awarded the Saudi-Caspian Prize for excellence in diesel promotion.

    Like I said in a previous post, thanks for the expensive sludge, warmies.

    301

  • #
    John F. Hultquist

    I think milk is over rated, except for use in chocolate!
    Others think differently:
    http://visboo.com/img/new/got-milk11.jpg

    40

  • #
    Sean

    What is the feasibility of making digesters for the manure, generating methane and collecting that to run electric generators. Farm animals create an enormous amount of waste on a regular, reliable basis.

    90

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Farm animals create an enormous amount of waste …

      True, but they never create it where you want it. At least, not if they are grass-fed, in the paddock, which is where you want them, to make the best milk, with the highest fat content.

      If you want to farm them, just for the methane, you would be better off buying butane in a bottle.

      140

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Locally we have a piggery that has been using methane generated power since 1990 https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/renewable-energy/bioenergy/turning-piggery-
      waste-into-electricity
      Berrybank Farm in Windermere produces this according to the link;

      ‘Based on electricity costs as at July 2011, including the value of Renewable Energy Certificates available for sale, Berrybank’s energy recovery project will save the business an estimated $82,500.
      Based on current generator running times, the 3- stage heat recovery process will recover at least 1,200 kWh of energy per day (438 MWh per year). This means that the generators can run longer,
      producing more electricity, expected to be around 190 MWh per annum.
      Fifty per cent of this power saving will be used to provide additional heat to the boilers.
      Most energy produced from the biogas system is used on site, however, surplus electricity is sold into the grid.
      Approximately 740 tonnes of CO2 is saved per annum.
      Further economic benefits are also expected due to improved piglet growth rates as a result of enhanced climate control within sheds, lower heat related deaths in summer and further reductions in electricity use through using surplus energy in summer to cool stored grain.’

      70

    • #
      Clive Popham

      ‘Farm animals create waste’, I disagree, farm animals produce a by product that should and is put to it,s purpose of increasing the organic content and fertility of the pastures.
      Study the carbon cycle and see how the animal by product is an essential part of that cycle.

      180

      • #
        Annie

        I agree…it is an essential part of the natural cycle as are dung beetles and worms ( not to mention flies…yuk).

        40

      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        It is very satisfying to drive a tractor towing a chain harrow, around a large paddock.

        You can make interesting designs and patterns. I am sure the guys on the ISS appreciate the artwork.

        50

        • #

          I don’t know why, Rereke, but I can’t imagine you circling a paddock perched on an old MF165 drawing intricate patterns for the amusement of passing astronauts. Doesn’t seem ‘you’ somehow.

          Me, however….

          20

    • #
      David Maddison

      Manure is not waste despite Leftist fantasies of “biofuels”. The nutrients in manure have to be returned to the soil or else external fertilisers will have to be added to maintain soil productivity.

      Biofuels aren’t free.

      BONUS FUN FACTOID: Australia is the only continent without a native dung beetle. Dung beetles from abroad were tested and introduced to Australia if suitable by the CSIRO.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Dung_Beetle_Project

      111

    • #

      Manure spreaders are already used on many dairy farms to fertilize their paddocks, instead of buying quantities of urea.

      40

    • #
      James

      That might be feasible in cool climate areas where the cows are kept in a barn all year around, I know one dairy which has a waste digester. They run 1000′s of cows. I will find out if they generate electricity from the waste.

      40

  • #
    John Smith

    Greenies promised us all free lunch
    Now our knickers are in a bunch
    They said there’d be desert of cake
    Realized too late they’re all half baked

    (apologies to the real poets, besides sarcasm, this is all I got)

    160

    • #
      C. Paul Barreira

      “Dessert” or “desert”? Perhaps it doesn’t matter. The wreckers have won, whatever the spelling. The fate of Marie Antoinette is much the same as bureaucrats, politicians, academics, crony capitalists and media have generated for South Australia.

      50

  • #
    Richard Ilfeld

    …”And possibly a mark of the grid saturation point of intermittent renewables.”
    The key saturation point is political stupidity or cupidity. When you look at
    A society like Venezuela, or worse, North Korea, the damage in SA can get far far
    worse. There is still pressure from the neo-Luddites to go 100% renewable, suggesting
    our collective prosperity is further destructible. I cannot believe the dairy farmers
    won’t be regulated or collectivized back into conformity…..the “solar” part of their plan
    may be insurance against idiocy similar to that of utilities building Potemkin solar at coal facilities.
    (sceptical? I have pictures). While there is little chance that a stand alone dairy facility will be competitive with a privately run
    large scale plant, I can readily believe it is competitive with a government run facility.

    120

    • #
      Chris In Hervey Bay

      And talk of Venezuela, they have the second biggest oil reserves in the world and are broke.
      And Australia, has probably the largest gas and coal reserves in the world and is short of electricity.
      One answer, Socialism !

      60

      • #
        Kelly

        The sickening thing is that most of these [snip] greenies are wanting communism. They are that bought by the idiot box that they believe socialism is better than what we currently have!

        [a little too dramatic] ED

        10

      • #
        yarpos

        When you look around the world , with the exception of Norway, the presence of oil reserves seems to be a bit of a curse in various ways. Not that many oil exporters where the people are generally prosperous and free.

        01

  • #

    Another reason for going diesel is the power outages, which have affected at least one milking.
    I looked at the costs of diesel generation a few years ago. For each liter of diesel, you receive around 4kwh of electricity. In the UK diesel prices by the tanker is about £0.65 (A$1.10) a liter. So that works out at 27 cents a kilowatt hour. On top of that, you have the capital costs of the engines and the maintenance. Prices need to be really high to justify diesel power.

    160

    • #
      Robert Rosicka

      Really high and unreliable , when your electricity supply depends on multiple variables like it does in SA no wonder people are looking for alternatives .
      South Australia have reliability only if the following occur .

      WIND – if the wind blows all the time .
      The wind must blow at the right speed .

      SOLAR – the sun must shine 24/7 .
      There can be no cloudy days .

      INTERCONNECTORS – the connection between this state and Victoriastan must remain open at all times and not be out for maintenance or breakdowns.
      Power flowing through the connectors must remain at around 50 hertz.
      Power must not exceed set limits .

      Victoriastan must be able to boost supply when needed .
      Tasmania must be able to boost supply when needed .

      Gas has to be available at all times .

      Where as when they had coal they just relied on coal and water.

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        OriginalSteve

        SA, expensive one day, disfunctional the next.

        kind of like the Zimbabwe of the asia pacific….

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        Greg Cavanagh

        The diary starts the day around 4am, the cows will be getting milked by 5am.

        No wind in the morning at that time of day.
        No sun at that time of day.

        INTERCONNECTORS; to what? Wind and solar? Lets hope the other state isn’t also W&S.
        Gas; that could work.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Kevin Marshall:
      From my last electricity bill, if you proportion the ever increasing Supply Charge (+ GST etc.) then the standard household rate for daytime electricity is 60¢ per kWh. Something of an incentive to be off-grid.

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    pattoh

    Bugger!

    That will make the lattes’ more expensive in Canberra.

    I wonder how the “poor” Chardonnay growers are going?

    No wonder Malcolm is looking worried!

    Tax hikes in the budget for sure.

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    PeterS

    Perhaps SA would be an excellent place to test out the practicality of using small Thorium based nuclear reactors. I won’t hold my breath though.

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    • #

      From what I have been reading of SA in the past few months, use of the word “practicality” is an immediate disqualification for consideration.

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      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        practicality
        noun

        1.
        the quality or state of being practical.

        “there are still major doubts about the practicality of the proposal”
        synonyms: feasibility, possibility, practicability, viability, workability; More
        utility, usefulness, use, value

        “we asked an architect to consider the practicality of cleaning the stonework”
        functionalism, functionality, serviceability;
        usefulness, utility

        “the table is a masterpiece of elegance and practicality”
        common sense, sense, realism, pragmatism, matter-of-factness
        “he spoke with calm practicality”

        2.
        the aspects of a situation that involve the actual doing or experience of something rather than theories or ideas.

        “the practicalities of living at sea”
        synonyms: practical details, mechanics; More
        informalnitty gritty, nuts and bolts

        20

  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    I want one about half that size but coal fired for the backyard , just to upset the greenies if nothing else .

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    • #
      Graeme4

      While in Norway recently, I saw a neat little steam-powered battery charger that was used to power the resistance’s radios. Would be ideal for home use, and you could run it on a variety of fuels.

      10

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  • #
    Dennis

    In colonial days Australians had to be self sufficient, it looks like we are heading backwards to the future.

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    Antoine D'Arche

    in my area one of the local dairies pulled the pin altogether and quit dairying when the power just got too expensive; the quarterly cost more than doubled.
    People have been forced out of work because of this global warming shit. This has gone far beyond simply bad policy or listening to the wrong advice.
    It is morally and ethically WRONG.
    THEY must all be held accountable for EVERY dollar lost, EVERY dairy closed, EVERY business shut down. No getting off lightly. Turn up the heat. Warn them that we ARE coming after EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. ANYONE who has EVER advocated in the public domain for this bullshit.
    They must be warned, and clearly, that they WILL be held accountable to the community.

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    • #
      John PAK

      My local dairy used to have a number of “Quantum” brand hot water services which are a heat pump that pull warmth out of ambient air and concentrate it into a 300 litre water tank. Sadly, housing developments are more profitable than dairy cows.

      You can generate electricity using a similar process. One local (Kurrajong NSW) house has 7 of those evacuated glass tube water heaters on the roof with a small pipe containing the refrigerant running through the header manifolds. This boils the refrigerant and it is then expanded through a screw expander which is a sort of double barrelled archimedes screw affair that turns differential gas pressures into rotational force to drive a generator. The now gaseous refrigerant then has to go through a cooling tower and big compressor to return it to liquid state before going around the loop again.
      It produces more electricity than it consumes with the extra energy coming from concentrated solar radiation but the set-up cost is prohibitive.

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  • #
    David Maddison

    If it is now cheaper to produce your own, I’m sure Government will step in to tax, regulate or ban it to stop people doing it.

    Then we’ll be true slaves.

    This insanity has got to stop.

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      el gordo

      The insanity won’t stop until they realise that CO2 does not cause global warming.

      South Australia should move towards nuclear power as a first option, otherwise coal seems to be the viable alternative.

      A Chinese built state of the art model coal fired power station will cost around a billion dollars, but I’m not sure about the cost of a nuclear power plant.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pakistan-energy-coal/pakistan-ramps-up-coal-power-with-chinese-backed-plants-idUSKBN17Z019

      50

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        This is a religious war – there is no “sense” from our perspective, in play anywhere.

        Its like other well known religious conflicts aorund the world – you cant use normal logic to reason with religious ideology.

        Its based on the reality the people who are running this black op see humans as parasites on their precious mythological “Gaia” ( the planet itself ).

        They wont stop. They cant – theya re driven to implement this and Agenda 21 equivelent.
        The religion these people subscribe to is a form of black majick witchcraft.

        SA is just the warm up act, to see how dopey the general population is. So far I’d say the gaia worshippers are in front.

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          el gordo

          I have one word for you Steve, its millenarianism.

          ‘The vision takes both religious forms, such as Christianity’s “thousand year reign of the saints,” and secular forms, such as utopianism and communism.’

          10

      • #
        Another Ian

        el gordo

        “The insanity won’t stop until they realise that CO2 does not cause global warming.”

        It won’t stop. If that ever happens there will be a flurry to find a new cause of the same result.

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        • #
          el gordo

          ‘…to find a new cause of the same result.’

          They might try, but will have trouble convincing the masses that a clear global cooling trend is caused by AGW.

          Oh wait … Day After Tomorrow.

          As temperatures fall into the negative the Klimatariat will say its been caused by two volcanic eruptions and La Nina, not a word on the blank sun. This is going to be a long game.

          30

    • #
      RickWill

      The government have little financial interest in power generation and transmission. Most of it in SA is privately owned. The inevitable consequence of attaching wind and solar to the grid is disintegration of the grid. Having your own power generation avoids the cost of transmission and distribution, which are more than the wholesale price. It makes sense to make your own if the grid only has wind and solar on offer.

      The question that will arise is whether the dairy can claim STCs to help with the installation cost. That would pay for the panels or battery.

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    David Maddison

    I know a farmer in SA who makes his own biodiesel and uses that to produce electricity during power outages.

    Biofuels are not cost effective in general if true costs are taken into account but it works for him because he offers what anounts to a free cooking oil disposal service for local food businesses so the raw material is free.

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    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      The downside is that he goes to work in the morning smelling like a farmer and comes home at sundown smelling like a fish and chip shop proprietor.

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    OriginalSteve

    It seems the “Mad Max” scenario may not be too far away…..dont laugh…

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    • #
      Robert Rosicka

      QLD ahead of NSW in renewables ? Are they mad ?

      20

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Mad?

        See my post at 14.1.1 to understand.

        Old Intelligence maxim – “When something doesnt make sense, you must seen another sense” – meaning you need to look at it through the right “lens” of understanding.

        If you dont view it as a religious war and who is doing it, it makes no sense.

        I know it comes as a shock, but it all comes down to this – when Jesus was being temped in the wilderness ( Matt 4:1-11 ) , Satan offered him all the “kingdoms” (i.e. govts, effectively ) if Jesus would bow down and worship Satan just once. Jesus of course refused, but the uncomfortable and not-so-obvious-bit left hanging in the air, is that Satan clearly has control over all govts of the earth. In fact hes referred to the prince/god of this world in the Bible a few times. ( 2 Cor 4:4 ).

        “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” ( Job 1:6-7 )

        The current attacks on Christianity also makes more sense when you look at it through this lens. Christians know full well were are going to cop severe persecution, it s coming, but it was prophesied in the Bible, so….

        Jesus also said “when you see all these things happening” in Matt 24, which was a collective series of events/convergence it would be unique in world history, never to occur again. My thoughts are its going to get very ugly, and likely wont get any better….

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      Dennis

      “The Climate Council’s energy specialist, Andrew Stock, described NSW as a “a late starter”.

      “Others states are way out in front. Queensland, South Australia and Victoria are way out in front,” he said.”

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  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    AEMO dash board right now highlights South Australia’s problem , not enough wind or solar to match demand and I might be wrong but gas is behind for some reason .

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    TdeF

    It’s not all about the cost of power, which is ridiculously high. Of greater concern for this dairy is the reliability. Milking 2300 cows by hand? The same with so many businesses.

    Blackouts are not just about cost but the commercial disaster entailed when freezers melt, services stop, food rots, molten metal and glass go solid in the pots. Food and manufacturing are not just dependent on cheap power, but on reliable power. Danger and loss of life too. Dialysis machine. Incubators for newborn. Airconditioning for old people. The greatest single loss of life in Hurricane Irma were the 12 people who died when their airconditioning failed in their retirement home. Real deaths we will see in Australia, but I guess politicians do not have to worry about their vote anymore.

    Renewables are unreliables. Solar is guaranteed to be off for half the day and perhaps inadequate for the rest. Wind is the ultimate unreliable.

    As for Hydro, there is not enough water at altitude in Australia where there are only 7 mountains just over 2000 metres in a country the size of the continental US. Colorado is over 2000 metres in mean elevation and has more than double that in the Rockies. The highest point in South Australia is Mount Woodruff at a mere 1440 metres and Adelaide lives entirely on the water coming down the Murray.

    Longevity. In contrast we are talking 200-300 years for coal and total reliability. As even renewables enthusiast Alan Kohler wrote, factories and power stations do not have a use by date. Just maintanenace. We are talking 20 years for wind and solar. Maximum. The billions we are giving away to fund private wind and solar is a total waste of money. There is no pay back period. They are disposables and that is a real environmental problem with heavy metals.

    Reliability is every bit as important as price. Longevity is as important too if you are investing and we are paying billions. Westgate Bridge in Melbourne had a design life of 40 years. Sydney Harbour bridge was 1932. Brooklyn Bridge was 1870. You just need maintenance. Windmills? Unmaintainable. Solar? Disposable.

    We are being massively betrayed by our politicians. Instead of maintaining, we are destroying, blowing up the best power stations in the world for reliability, longevity and price.

    Could someone please explain why?

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    • #
      Robert Rosicka

      Agree Tdef but in Northeast Victoriastan within an hours drive there are plenty dam sites with good water flows , were just not allowed to use the “dam” word unless its pumped hydro dam .

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        TdeF

        True but for power you need plenty of water and plenty of fall. We lack both. Also tall mountain ranges mean far greater runoff and power, harvesting the water into rivers. As the oldest continent, our tall sharp mountains are all gone. Having seen real mountain ranges from the Rockies to Lake Baikal and their potential, our low altitude dams are not in the race for power generation. Lake Baikal has 21% of the world’s fresh water fed by 1200km of high snow capped rocky mountains on both sides. Even 1 metre of fall is incredible with such volumes. Our gently rolling grassy hills hardly qualify.

        Our now illegal dams are more to protect against a very dry climate. We are not allowed do that either. No new big dams since the 1970s. Turkey nests in flat NSW at best. We do have a $100Bn of unused French desalination plants though, thanks to Tim Flannery. We will be paying for those for another quarter century. It is a long time since environmental activism did any good.

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          Robert Rosicka

          The whole upper 15 mile creek Valley which is extensive would make a great series of dams capable of hydro .
          Upper Buffalo river system has scope for many dams not to mention Buffalo dam itself was never finished to its intended size .
          Upper king River system is an excellent spot for a few dams and the current dam could also be made bigger .

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          • #
            Dennis

            I just read that Premier Chook of Queensland is planning to legislate again for “wild rivers” to be locked up national parks.

            Some might remember that Prime Minister Abbott and LNP Premier of Queensland Newman managed to overturn the previous Labor legislation preparing for the Coalition long term plan to extend the WA Ord River Irrigation Area into and across the NT and Qld.

            The dams and barrages to harvest wet season rainwater and for some hydro electricity generators.

            21

        • #
          John in Oz

          But, but, but…..

          South Australia never let go of the ways to secure its future energy need more efficiently. And in continuation of that, almost 185 potential sites have been found that are suitable for pumped hydro storage across South Australia.

          These sites are all gathered at Pumped Hydro Atlas in South Australia. Whereas the state of SA constitutes the largest proportion in terms of variable renewable electricity (solar PV and wind), this is eventually expected to lift in between the range of 50 to 100 percent in the next few years.

          see http://noco2.com.au/2017/06/16/185-potential-pumped-hydro-storage-sites-identified-in-south-australia/?gclid=CjwKEAjwu7LOBRDZ_MOHmpW6kW8SJABC19sYVGWoObr5LRFo9p4jPQ-n0PcIOxYATRj9-4PEWACjSxoCk-fw_wcB

          This link:

          https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1a3PlZhsYHARtIsnH_FfFzmRPaRw&ll=-30.247100487540138%2C139.9158676127929&z=9

          displays a map of the ‘possible’ locations for pumped hydro which includes around 30 sites north of Arkaroola. One would naturally not be surprised that this many sites in such a remote location, with a mean rainfall of 257mm/year, would be ideal for pumped hydro

          I think Flim Fammery would be correct for these sites in that “Even the rain that falls isn’t actually going to fill our dams and our river systems”.

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      See my posts at 14.1.1 and 17.1.1

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  • #
    Mark M

    Turns out that emitting trace CO2 is a truly lousy way to kill kangaroos.

    After being decimated during the long drought years from the late 90s to 2008, kangaroo numbers are up again at record levels.

    Kangaroo management fails farmers as roo numbers hit record levels.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-09-29/kangaroo-management-fails-farmers-in-record-roo-numbers/8993148

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  • #
    Ross

    Does this create a business opportunity ? Could it be possible to develop a mini coal fired power station ? I’m only being slightly tongue in cheek.

    But the way SA is going they will get communities thinking of ways they can work together to lower costs and improve reliability ( as TdeF highlights above).

    40

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    RickWill

    Any business not doing the numbers on generating their own power is negligent.

    It should be obvious to everyone that wind and solar offer no benefit of scale so have no value in a network designed for centralised generation. The costs of transmission and distribution from grid scale sources make them uneconomic with the same energy collection and storage components mounted locally.

    30

    • #
      Robert Rosicka

      Rick I’m suggesting that’s for all states .

      20

      • #
        RickWill

        The exception could be Tasmania as wind and solar can be economic at higher level of market share when coupled with hydro. Also solar is hopeless in Tasmania in winter months so requires more diesel.

        40

        • #
          Robert Rosicka

          A good drought year or two and Tassie loses its hydro , to not plan for a prolonged drought in this country is sheer stupidity.

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          • #
            RickWill

            That is why wind and solar are beneficial in Tassie. It reduces the energy drain on the hydro. The hydro can cater for large swings. There are certainly issues with voltage control with all the distributed sources but they are managing.

            Tassie could reasonably expect to cope with 40% market share from wind and solar. With that level there would be need to limit wind generation on occasion but the hydro is capable of load following quite quickly. 40% of energy from wind and solar means a 40% less water consumption.

            30

            • #
              Analitik

              Tasmania is the only only place in Australia with the hydro resources that can be used to “bank” intermittent, renewable power yet even there, subsidies are required to make wind turbines and solar panels economically “viable”.

              Plus insolation make solar ineffective for much of the year while the best sites for wind generation also require massively intrusive works in remote wilderness zones for the turbines and transmission lines.

              As always, the problems lie in the details.

              00

            • #
              Analitik

              Tasmania is the only only place in Australia with the hydro resources that can be used to “bank” intermittent, renewable power yet even there, subsidies are required to make wind turbines and solar panels economically “viable”.

              Plus insolation make solar ineffective for much of the year while the best sites for wind generation also require massively intrusive works in remote wilderness zones for the turbines and transmission lines.

              As always, the problems lie in the details.

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          • #
            Analitik

            Yep, BassLink was deployed to provide this insurance but the cash strapped Tassie government decided to exploit the carbon tax for income by aggressively selling electricity through BassLink rather than just doing some sensible arbitraging to cover the financial and operational costs. Double stupidity.

            00

        • #
          Graeme4

          No advantage (yet) in WA either, as my electricity costs are only 25c/unit, delivered. However, now that the State Govt is Labour, it won’t be long until they also ramp up the renewables and push up our power costs.

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    RickWill

    Will be interesting to watch the grid defection unfold in SA. All the new hardware being added and reducing number of consumers stuck with paying it off.

    By now it must be evident to the wind and solar project proponents how this will unfold. All that hardware and no consumer base to recover costs.

    We see it constantly stated in the media that the cause of high power costs is the lack of direction and certainty from the federal government. In fact the prices have to increase as wind and solar take a larger share of the market. The end game is no grid connected consumers, no grid and a whole lot of grid scale wind and solar stranded with no source of income. Surely project proponents can see this inevitable outcome!

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    • #
      Dennis

      Obviously the taxpayer funded subsidies, high electricity prices and tax concessions for each business is incentive enough to “risk” a venture with a time line exit plan.

      31

      • #
        RickWill

        The majority of subsidies are not taxpayer funded. The money comes from electricity consumers. Those left as consumers have to carry the burden of those installing solar.

        The deeming period for STCs is now diminishing and will be zero in 2030. System costs are likely to increase as the deeming period reduces and the subsidy declines. The price of STCs fell earlier this year so there must be more take up than needed to meet the RET.

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    the sting

    Back in the 1930′s in a northern Victorian town a local businessman and my grandfather installed a large diesel generator to provide electricity to the town and the immediate local area.It seems that we are heading back to the 1930′s caused by this core belief in man made global warming.

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    RickWill

    By the way, the deeming period for STCs are now reducing with complete phase out by 2030. Now is probably the best time to buy your solar system as they are likely to cost more as the subsidies decline.

    I personally think Australia is beyond the point of no return. Grid power costs are already at a point where it is economic to make your own power. Maybe not yet for individual households unless you have the ability to do it yourself and that makes it hard to get STCs. But any business with room for panels, battery and little diesel on a managed project will do better than the grid. As more businesses leave the grid the power gets much more expensive for those remaining.

    The only way back is for governments to eliminate the RET and fund construction of new coal power stations from general revenue. I consider that highly unlikely. The NEM is toast.

    40

    • #
      Analitik

      A couple of statewide blackouts this summer (hopefully confined to SA but possibly in NSW and Vic) could well provide the impetus for reversal of the ruinous policies that have undermined the NEM. It does need to happen soon else large generation shortfalls will occur before replacement baseload plants can be built.

      00

  • #
    David Maddison

    I can’t bear this long slow destruction of the grid. I urge the socialists and other anti-scientists to fast track it!

    It will take total grid collapse to even enable a REMOTE possibility of something being done about it.

    And as for our scientists and engineers in positions of leadership and influence you have utterly failed us and this will be remembered at the Climate Nuremberg Trials.

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    • #
      Robert Rosicka

      When it hits the fan David it’s going to be the biggest four year old dummy spit from the pollies , it was your fault , no it was your fault , no it was your fault .

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      • #
        Dennis

        “But we are innocent, how could we ignore the advice of government agencies and the never ever wrong United Nations?”

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        • #
          Robert Rosicka

          Ahh yes Dennis but if the UN told them to jump off a cliff or send themselves to prison and give all their money and possessions away I think they wouldn’t do that would they ?
          So they are capable of self thought but only when it suits .

          30

    • #
      RickWill

      I do not think it will be much longer in SA. All the dominos are lined up now. It does not take long to collapse.

      One factor that might save the grid in the rest of Australia is wide recognition of why SA collapsed. Jay Weatherill may yet prove to be the sacrificial lamb that saved the NEM in the rest of Australia.

      Energy Australia is already aware of the potential defection so I figure a lot more people are starting to see the end game for the grid.

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      • #
        yarpos

        Dont really see it Rick. One mild summer and the can will just get kicked down the road and more band aid solutions applied.

        20

    • #
      Chris In Hervey Bay

      and this will be remembered at the Climate Nuremberg Trials.

      Like Juliar Gillard, most of the CFMEU, HSU, and the AWU all walked, and yet it was obvious that all those paraded before the Royal Commission into Trade Union Governance and Corruption were as guilty as hell.

      David, you’re ‘dreamin.

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    pat

    a good news farming story:

    28 Sept: TheWest: WA grain farmers boosted by drenching rains in rollercoaster growing season
    by Jenne Brammer and Cally Dupe
    Widespread drenching rains over the past fortnight will put hundreds of millions of extra dollars in the pockets of grain farmers, providing a welcome surge to what has been a rollercoaster growing season.
    For some in the Great Southern, however, the torrential rain has damaged crops.

    Until mid-September, WA’s grain forecast was about 10 million tonnes — below the 12 million tonne five-year average, because of dry conditions.
    The Australian Association of Agricultural Consultants WA, the Grains Industry Association of WA, and CBH chairman Wally Newman say the unusually heavy recent rains could add a million tonnes to the size of the harvest — worth about $300 million to farmers…

    AAAC president Tim Johnston said September rains were called the “money rains” because they arrived at a crucial time in the crops’ development — when grain was filling.
    “These excellent finishing rains — much bigger and steadier than we usually get — will lead to plumper, heavier grain, vastly increasing tonnages delivered and dollars in farmers’ pockets,” he said…

    Yealering farmer Craig Jespersen received 25-35mm of crucial finishing rains since Wednesday last week, which he estimates will add about 15-20 per cent to his yields, resulting in an above-average season for his property…
    https://thewest.com.au/business/agriculture/wa-grain-farmers-boosted-by-drenching-rains-in-rollercoaster-growing-season-ng-b88613070z

    for theirABC, it’s also a “rollercoaster” but “filled with extremes”:

    28 Sept: ABC: Rain saves the day as WA farmers endure rollercoaster season filled with extremes
    By Sebastian Neuweiler, Mark Bennett and Christien de Garis
    Grain growers across Western Australia are revelling in recent rainfall which they say has arrived just in time to save the season.
    A dry start to spring had farmers the Great Southern to the South East region worried, but falls this week of up to 25 millimetres — and more in some districts — have proved to be a game changer…
    West River farmer Peter Kuiper said the season had been a rollercoaster ride since the start of the year, when floods devastated the South East in February…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-28/how-the-heavens-opened-up-to-save-hard-hit-wa-farmers/8995592

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    • #
      John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

      From senior forecaster at the BoM, Dr, Watkins, The Australian, August 31, 2017.
      “The rainfall outlook for September to November indicates below-average rainfall is likely for south western parts of Western Australia,” says Dr Watkins.
      “Warm waters in the central Indian Ocean may result in higher pressures south of Australia, resulting in more easterly winds, keeping the west drier than average.”
      A tough gig, this weather prediction business.

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      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        Are you saying the BoM was wrong? Again?

        That’s impossible. Quick. Adjust the record.

        30

      • #
        James

        Wouldn’t you get more evaporation from warm waters, so you have more moisture in the air. Combine more moisture in the air with a mechanism to make it condense, then you get rain.

        Do not you need warm water to create convection to create low pressure for a cyclone to form?
        Am I being too logical?

        00

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    pat

    this is still in moderation on jo’s previous thread.

    however, it is fitting on this thread because all the pain of the MANMADE GLOBAL WARMING policies would seem to be for nought.

    extreme cold is CAGW!

    28 Sept: InsideClimateNews: Ice Loss and the Polar Vortex: How a Warming Arctic Fuels Cold Snaps
    The loss of sea ice may be weakening the polar vortex, allowing cold blasts to dip south from the Arctic, across North America, Europe and Russia, a new study says.
    By Bob Berwyn
    When winter sets in, “polar vortex” becomes one of the most dreaded phrases in the Northern Hemisphere. It’s enough to send shivers even before the first blast of bitter cold arrives.

    New research shows that some northern regions have been getting hit with these extreme cold spells more frequently over the past four decades, even as the planet as a whole has warmed. While it may seem counterintuitive, the scientists believe these bitter cold snaps are connected to the warming of the Arctic and the effects that that warming is having on the winds of the stratospheric polar vortex, high above the Earth’s surface.

    Here’s what scientists involved in the research think is happening…
    “The shift toward more persistent weaker states of the polar vortex lets Arctic air spill out and threaten Russia and Europe with extreme cold,” said the study’s lead author, Marlene Kretschmer, a climate scientist with the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research. “The trend can explain most of the cooling of Eurasian winters since 1990.”…

    Primed for Longer Stretches of Extreme Cold
    The research, published in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, helps explain one way that rapid and intense Arctic warming affects climate extremes in the populated mid-latitudes of the Northern hemisphere.

    Kretschmer and her colleagues focused on the region from Scandinavia through Siberia, where winter snow cover has increased and average winter temperatures have dropped since 1990. Co-author Judah Cohen, a climate researcher at MIT, said the results also provide new clues about how the Arctic affects cold extremes in the U.S…

    Step Toward More Accurate Forecasts
    Along with helping explain how melting sea ice affects the atmosphere, the new study is a step toward more accurate seasonal forecasts that can help prepare communities for extreme conditions, Cohen said…READ ON
    https://insideclimatenews.org/news/27092017/polar-vortex-cold-snap-arctic-ice-loss-global-warming-climate-change

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      TdeF

      This is not rational science. Just arbitrary conjecture without substance. In the new Climate Science, anything goes as science. Cold causes heat causes cold. If you are wrong, that is an extreme event, caused by climate change or natural variation. If you are right, that is not dumb luck but proof.

      Just about anyone can be a Climate Scientist, as essayists Al Gore and Tim Flannery have proven. How does a degree in English make you a scientist? A ‘top’ scientist? Then you get hydrologists like Phil Jones and our own former BOM/CSIRO head Rob Vertessey. Even a mechanical engineer Bill Nye, the science guy. Anyone can do it! A whole ‘Climate Commission’ without a single meteorologist. A free for all. Guesswork and ad hoc rationales. Even the head of the Royal society, a geneticist is now an expert on climate.

      They all agree. CO2 is causing Climate Change, a nebulous proposition so meaningless that it cannot be defined.

      In the amazing world of Climate Science, every event is absolute proof of climate change. You wonder how the planet survived so long without Climate Scientists? Now we are spending trillions saving the planet from this scourge?

      Who would have thought the United Nations would have created a political body for Climate Change in 1988? That is when it all started, 1988. Not the industrial revolution. Now Climate Change is melting sea ice, destroying species and causes every single hurricane. The people whose fame and fortune comes from Climate Change all agree. It is all true. It is all Climate Science.

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    Bite Back

    If I didn’t know the source is reliable I’d have to believe this is some fairy tale made up for effect. Do they really want to destroy South Australia? If so they are going about it exactly the right way.

    I’m not willing to call for civil disobedience. I don’t live there. But …

    BB

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      Chris In Hervey Bay

      It is not just South Australia, it is the whole Western Civilization.

      Quote from Maurice Strong to the United Nations.

      Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?

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    pat

    comment in moderation re: 28 Sept: InsideClimateNews: Ice Loss and the Polar Vortex: How a Warming Arctic Fuels Cold Snaps by Bob Berwyn

    Berwyn is a bit of a “climate” activist:

    2014: Colorado Independent: Bob Berwyn talks with KGNU about his crowd-funded climate-change reporting
    by Tessa Cheek
    http://www.coloradoindependent.com/149349/bob-berwyn-talks-with-kgnu-about-his-crowd-funded-climate-change-reporting

    on Berwyn’s Twitter page, he re-tweets:

    Tweet from Act on Climate Change Vic
    If there’s a take away message for Australia’s politicians it is this: Urgent action on climate change is needed. We can’t afford to waste another day.

    the Victorian lot post this video from BoM’s Adam Morgan, current 2pm 27/9:

    Twitter: BoM: SEVERE WEATHER UPDATE: #Heat and #bushfire danger in Qld, NSW. Current 2pm 27/9. Latest warnings at http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/warnings
    VIDEO: 2mins48secs: BoM’s Adam Morgan with hottest ever stories, including around 1min30 forecast for Brisbane, Thursday, 28 Sept of 36C. later says Brisbane could go a couple of degrees lower if norther-east breeze comes…
    https://twitter.com/BOM_au/status/912900381344137217

    from jo’s previous thread, I have posted how BoM’s website shows 30.3C Max for Thursday, 28 Sept, but I also posted link to ABC which has BoM stating 30.8C Max for Brisbane CBD 28 Sept.

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  • #
    Will Janoschka

    For the next weekly Unvarnished Whatever Try one more time, reiterate:
    From: http://joannenova.com.au/2017/09/advert-in-the-australian-describes-what-real-climate-change-looks-like

    Whalehunt Fun September 22, 2017 at 12:45 pm

    (“At last.”)

    Will Janoschka September 22, 2017 at 5:23 pm

    “At last what? This seems many times more ridiculous than the original CAGW SCAM! :-)

    Ted O’Brien. September 23, 2017 at 8:53 am

    ‘Thanks, Will. I wondered if I was asleep still. But thanks just the same to somebody who has invested heavily in trying hard.’

    Will Janoschka September 25, 2017 at 7:24 pm (almost)

    If you look at the chart in the ad of CO2 effects; a chart produced by NASA Giss and endorsed by NOAA and NCAR\UCAR you will see a claimed flux in the direction of Earth’s surface at 29W/m² produced by 400ppmv of atmospheric CO2. And claim(s) that such was produced by the ModTran computer program. There is absolutely no such flux, none, nada, never.

    As illustrated in the ‘ad’ you can see such is used by well meaning luke-warmers trying to say it is not as bad as the Clim-catastrophe SCAMMERS claim. Nonsense! Somehow they ‘believe the scammers claim that ModTran program can somehow produce a flux value’!! It cannot do so in any way! It was never intended to do such a calculation!!

    All that ModTran can do is calculate the “high frequency spectral attenuation” by the airmass of the amplitude or spatial ‘modulation (the signal)’ over a prescribed slant path. It is for determining the limits of atmospheric seeing! It can never do ‘flux’, in any waveband, as claimed!

    This exact design limitation was carefully explained to James Hanson and his band at NASA Giss,in 1978. This did not go well with his political\business plan to disable the US coal industry in favor of Al\Jimmy natural gas interests\investments!

    Later, (2017) you still have such nonsense accepted by near all, (97%), government funded academic Meteorologists, including the luke-warmers that have no clue about this Earth’s atmosphere at all. Such a God-awful menagerie of total incompetence is almost beyond belief!

    The thermal ‘ktb noise power’ in the sensible heat of mass ‘as measured as temperature’, can and does produce a wideband potential for electromagnetic (EM) power transfer, (flux), proportional to abs T^4 as the upper limit. As per Gustov Kirchhoff, any and all such EM flux is strictly limited at each EM frequency, and in each direction by any countervailing (opposing) potential, now called the easily measurable ‘spectral radiance’.

    The very idea that ‘all’ radiates EM flux in any\all direction at any\all frequency is simply part of that God-awful menagerie of academic incompetence! :-(
    All the best!-will-

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  • #
    clipe

    So, buy a house under known flight paths then complain about the noise

    https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0f/cf/41/a2/photo1jpg.jpg

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    chrism

    Some advertising, but relevant to the choices the dairy cow producers have
    geothermal ??
    biogas
    farmer own fracked gas, dare I say it

    then

    http://www.inresol.se/pdf/GENIOUS_datasheeet_stirling_engine.pdf

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    Will Janoschka

    For the next weekly Unvarnished Whatever pleeze!
    For Political not Technical.
    In the USA we have POTUS45 that seems to understand the medical ‘Do no harm’! Be kind, help all you can, do not screw employees, nor customers!
    OTOH has, true open season on fools! This Earth has a dirth of kind folk, but a plethora of fools. MAGA.

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    OriginalSteve

    Oh no…something they *cant* blame on mythical climate change….

    http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/experts-puzzled-by-antarctic-sea-ice-melts/ar-AAstjfU?li=AA4Zor&ocid=mailsignout

    Volcanoes?

    Sea ice levels in Antarctica dropped to a record low this year, but experts say there isn’t a clear link to climate change.

    More than 60 meteorologists and scientists from around the world are holding a week-long meeting in Hobart to better understand sea ice changes on the frozen continent.

    Dr Jan Lieser from the Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems Cooperative Research Centre said sea ice levels had experienced a “massive increase” in variability over the past few years.

    Sea ice coverage fell to 2.075 million square kilometres in March, the lowest since satellite observations began in 1979.

    But just three years earlier it hit a record high of more than 20 million square kilometres.

    Dr Lieser said increasing ocean surface temperatures melt the ice but may also be helping it re-freeze.

    “More warmth into the system reduces the sea ice cover but there’s also other mechanisms,” he said.

    “Increased warmth increases the melt underneath shelfs – that increases the fresh water balance of the ocean.

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    Robert Rosicka

    OT , channel nine is talking up the drought on the eastern seaboard .

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      David Maddison

      If the information came from the BoM it can’t be trusted, they are probably making it up.

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      Bushkid

      Well, it is dry here in CQ, but it is the end of September after a drier winter and a late flush of rain with XTC Debbie in late march after a dry summer. So yes, it is dry, but it has been before. It always gets dry at the time of year, then it rains again, sometimes a lot (2010-2011, and another couple of years after that being outstanding examples of excessively and destructively wet years). It always rains in the end, despite Flummery’s apocalyptic “predictions”.

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    pat

    can’t vouch for the figures, but it looks like the EU is not too interested in following the CAGW agenda:

    28 Sept: ClimateChangeNews: Megan Darby: Diesel subsidised by €21bn a year in Europe
    Amid scandal and a public health crisis, diesel was a major beneficiary of government support for fossil fuels between 2014 and 2016, a report reveals
    Diesel fuel, a major cause of toxic air pollution in cities, was handed €63 billion in tax breaks in the EU between 2014 and 2016, new research has found.

    EU institutions and 11 member states handed out at least €112bn ($131bn) a year to support coal, oil and gas between 2014 and 2016, a report by the Overseas Development Institute (ODI) and Climate Action Network (CAN) Europe revealed on Thursday.
    Nearly half went to the transport sector, including €21bn per year in tax breaks for diesel…

    “I was quite surprised at the scale of support to the transport sector and out of that, how much was supporting diesel was quite shocking,” Shelagh Whitley, head of climate and energy at ODI, told Climate Home.
    “What you are basically doing is falsely incentivising something you are trying to get rid of. People will be driving diesel cars for longer than they would have, for economic reasons.
    “And it is money the government then doesn’t have to use for other things – it makes it that bit harder to build a clean energy system.”…

    A number of European governments have historically encouraged drivers to switch from petrol to diesel fuel, on the basis it emitted less CO2 when burned. The powerful agricultural lobby has also argued for lower taxes on diesel fuel as it powers much of the machinery used on farms…

    In the UK, a 2001 fuel duty cut encouraged a boom in diesel drivers. In 2016, Italy applied a 23% lower tax rate to diesel than petrol…

    Wendel Trio, director of CAN Europe, singled out direct subsidies from Brussels for criticism…
    “The EU must stop subsidising fossil fuels. Instead, the scarce resources of the EU budget and the EU’s development and investment banks should serve higher climate ambitions by financing the clean and sustainable energy transition.”…

    Climate Home approached European Commission spokespeople on energy, environment, transport, competition and finance for comment on the findings. They did not respond in time for publication.
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2017/09/28/diesel-subsidised-e7bn-year-europe/

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      Analitik

      Yes, tax reduction for fossil fuels (when the tax is inappropriate) is a subsidy while blatant payments for renewables (as well as tax breaks) are merely “support”.

      Green economics aka The Third Way

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    pat

    behind paywall:

    29 Sept: Australian: Gottliebsen: Victoria’s amazing, unused gas reserve
    by Robert Gottliebsen
    Australia’s energy outlook could be transformed if Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews and Opposition Leader Matthew Guy found the time to go down to Burong farm, near Seaspray in Gippsland.
    And it would be even better if Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull and Opposition leader Bill Shorten could also fly to the farm…

    Underneath the McNaughton farm and others in the area is what likely to be Australia’s largest untapped gas reserve. It could be about equal to the original but now depleting Bass Strait reserves. The world’s largest oil company Exxon was so excited by this amazing field that they agreed to spend $100 million on the areas held by Ignite Energy Resources (via its subsidiary Gippsland Gas)…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/robert-gottliebsen/victorias-amazing-unused-gas-reserve/news-story/4a26fc468bdcbf31e3697a5e268276e6

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    pat

    read all:

    27 Sept: Bloomberg: Lights Out? Now Australia’s Got a Coal Shortage
    by Perry Williams & Ben Sharples
    Australia’s energy crisis keeps getting stranger.
    The world’s second-biggest seller of liquefied natural gas is already threatening producers with export curbs as it struggles to find enough supply for its own use. Now one of the largest thermal coal shippers is scrambling to replenish stockpiles at some power plants after they dwindled following a surge in demand and constrained supply…

    Coal inventories at Australia’s three largest electricity providers — AGL Energy Ltd., Origin Energy Ltd. and CLP Holdings Ltd.’s EnergyAustralia — have shrunk over winter as they use more of the fuel to compensate for natural gas shortages. The closure of the Hazelwood coal-fired power plant in Victoria state also put further pressure on the nation’s remaining generators to produce more power, eating through their stockpiles at a faster pace.

    Against this backdrop, the power producers have struggled to get sufficient supplies as they compete with overseas buyers for lower-quality coal that was once considered too poor to export. Miners in Australia can command higher prices for coal known as high ash in China, South Korea and India

    Griffin estimates miners can probably sell coal to international customers at double the price sold to domestic utilities. Australia exported 116.1 million metric tons of thermal coal during the first seven months this year, compared with 114.4 million in the same period last year. China’s imports of thermal and metallurgical coal during the first eight months are about 14 percent higher than in the same period in 2016…

    Coal accounts for 76 percent of Australia’s power generation…

    “There are many parallels with what is happening in the gas space and what’s happening in the coal space right now and I think it’s taken the market by surprise,” MineLife’s Wendt said in an interview Wednesday.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-27/now-one-of-the-world-s-energy-powerhouses-has-a-coal-squeeze

    not massive amounts, but this still tells a story:

    28 Sept: Reuters: Polish exporter to fill domestic coal hole with U.S. imports
    A domestic coal shortage has forced Poland’s largest coal exporter Weglokoks to order a shipment from the United States so that it can honour contracts with its overseas buyers.

    Weglokoks said on Wednesday that it plans to resell the imported U.S. coal abroad, mostly to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Germany and Austria, but would also consider sales to customers in Poland in the future.
    That would be likely to cause friction with Poland’s energy ministry, which expects the country’s utilities to buy and burn coal from domestic mines…READ ON
    http://www.reuters.com/article/poland-coal/polish-exporter-to-fill-domestic-coal-hole-with-u-s-imports-idUSL8N1M84F1

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      Forrest Gardener

      A course in the law of natural consequences may yield great benefits in future years.

      Or put more simply in Big Yellow Taxi, don’t it always seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve got ’til its gone.

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    John in Oz

    The commenters here are not listening to the message from our esteemed Labor overlords government.

    THE SA PLAN
    Our energy plan puts South Australians first.
    South Australia’s energy plan will:

    improve reliability
    put downward pressure on prices
    create local jobs
    This plan will ensure South Australia will become more self-reliant for its power. It will transform our energy network to provide reliable 21st century clean energy.

    http://ourenergyplan.sa.gov.au/

    jay and Co are like problem gamblers who think doubling-down on their bets will eventually lead to a win

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    pat

    thou doth protest too much.

    ***the only sentence worth reading:

    28 Sept: CarbonBrief: Guest post: Authors respond to misinterpretations of their 1.5C carbon budget paper
    by multiple authors
    This is a guest post written jointly by all the authors of the widely reported – and debated – paper, Millar et al, published in Nature Geoscience last week.

    Our recent article, “Emission budgets and pathways consistent with limiting warming to 1.5C”, caused a bit of a media storm, so we would like to explain what the article did, and did not, do…

    What were the conclusions?
    ***…Our estimates indicate a marked change in the remaining budget compared to estimates inferred from the same model simulations as reported in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)’s Fifth Assessment Report (AR5).

    EXCERPTS FROM 4 COMMENTS:
    GUTB: So….double-speak and giant sentences to misdirect readers from the fact that thier forecast is hugely at odds with the AR5 predictions? Why was this propaganda trash necessary? Why not just admit, as the authors have already done, that they they think the old IPCC models are wrong?

    ***Eli Rabett: Let us be clear the media storm was fed by some of the authors going well off outside the text. It would be useful if they made clear the separation btw the paper and their personal views

    Clive Best: Presumably you mean this: Myles Allen: “Climate models indicate we should be at 1.3C whereas we are now only at 1C” http://www.bbc.co.uk/progra… … … starts 2:31
    I actually think he was being honest in stating what is a pretty obvious conclusion of the paper. Cumulative CO2 emissions is the wrong measure. ESM’s have simply got the conversion to atmospheric CO2 concentration wrong…
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-authors-respond-to-misinterpretations-of-their-1-5c-carbon-budget-paper

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    Chris In Hervey Bay

    A bit O/T. I wanted to post this yesterday but lost the link. Found again today.
    The damage done in Puerto Rico to the wind farms and the solar farms.
    Someone said they look like installing a wind farm in North Queensland, cyclone country.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AAHJs-j3uw

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    pat

    27 Sept: GWPF: Ross McKitrick: Despite Denial, Climate Models Are Running Too Hot
    Millar et al. attracted controversy for stating that climate models have shown too much warming in recent decades, even though others (including the IPCC) have said the same thing. The model-observational discrepancy is real, and needs to be taken into account especially when using models for policy guidance…
    AT BOTTOM LINK TO FULL ARTICLE AT JUDITH CURRY’S CLIMATE ETC
    https://www.thegwpf.com/ross-mckitrick-despite-denial-climate-models-are-running-too-hot/

    Salford Star is a community-run newspaper, but has the only report on this I’ve found online:

    26 Sept: Salford Star: GREEN PARTY LEADERS CALL FOR SALFORD MP TO BE CENSURED OVER ECO ‘SMEAR CAMPAIGN’
    SALFORD MP, GRAHAM STRINGER, SLAMMED OVER ‘PHONEY ECO WARRIORS’ OUTBURST
    Green Party leaders, Caroline Lucas MP and Jonathan Bartley, have called for Blackley and Broughton MP, Graham Stringer, to be censured over ‘irresponsible’ comments, after he wrote in the Daily Mail that “eco justice warriors” are making “phoney” claims about the threat of climate change.
    He did this without mentioning that he is a member of the Global Warming Policy Foundation which lobbies against policies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions…

    Blackley and Broughton MP, Graham Stringer, is in big trouble with the Green Party and the London School of Economics after writing an article for the Daily Mail which insisted that “eco justice warriors” are making “phoney” claims about the threat of climate change.
    Stringer sits on Parliament’s Select Committee for Science and Technology, and the Green Party’s joint leaders, Caroline Lucas MP and Jonathan Bartley, have written to Norman Lamb, Chair of the Committee, calling for the Salford MP to be censured…

    “His article, which risks undermining the already fragile state of our political leaders’ commitments to tackling climate change, is irresponsible and undermines the credibility of the committee he sits on” they add “In his article, Mr Stringer blames ‘broken computer models’ and accuses ‘environmental warriors’ of ‘habitual arrogance’ in making his case for a serious scaling back of global efforts to fight climate change.”

    In the letter, the Green leaders also make reference to the Grantham Institute at the London School of Economics which accused Stringer of “untrue claims” and of leading a “smear campaign” against those committed to fighting climate change.

    “We’d be very grateful to hear what steps you might take to respond, and how you will prevent him using his position on the Science and Technology to propagate his own ideological beliefs on climate change” the Green Party leaders’ letter concludes.

    In the Mail article, written last week, Stringer points to a new report which, he writes, “reveals that the immediate threat from global warming is lower than previously thought, because the computer models used by climate change experts are flawed…
    “It shows that so many of the assumptions behind the imposition of the fashionable eco agenda – such as the creation of vast, subsidised wind farms or the levying of green taxes – are wrong” he adds “Yet the environmental warriors show not a shred of embarrassment over these new findings.

    “They don’t seem to have considered for a moment that we might consider throttling back on the extreme measures we’re told must be carried out to ‘save the planet’” he insists “They display such certainty because environmentalism increasingly resembles a religious creed. That has certainly been my experience as a Labour MP, who, because of my own knowledge of science, has long been sceptical about the climate change doctrine…”

    Making reference to his Salford constituents, Stringer adds: “Successive governments have brought in green taxes, hiked fuel duties and pushed up energy bills. The real price is paid not by the eco justice warriors wallowing in their phoney moral superiority, but by people like those in my Blackley and Broughton constituency, who struggle to meet their household running costs…”

    The article ends with Stringer making a plea for “a return to environmental sanity in place of the current dangerous green fundamentalism…”
    http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=4123

    27 Sept: New Statesman: Jason Muguresu: This MP on the male-dominated science committee is very busy – attacking climate change
    The Labour Brexiteer is a climate change sceptic who has somehow presumably found the time between reassuring scientists their post-EU funding will be just fine to pen a 1,200 word op-ed in The Daily Mail. In it, he bashes the “eco justice warriors wallowing in their phoney moral superiority”

    The subject of Stringer’s ire is a new study by scientists from the University of Oxford, and published in Nature Geoscience. The study found that (*spoiler alert*) new computer-based climate models are more accurate than old ones.
    This, according to Stringer, proves that his longheld scepticism is vindicated…

    Stringer, incidentally, is a trustee of Lord Lawson’s Global Warming Policy Foundation which lobbies against policies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. For some reason, this fact must have been cut out due to the word count…ETC
    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/09/mp-male-dominated-science-committee-very-busy-attacking-climate-change

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    pat

    27 Sept: Reuters: UPDATE 2-France raises carbon taxes, to repay EDF renewables debt
    Reporting by Geert De Clercq, Bate Felix and Simon Carraud; Writing by Geert De Clercq
    France plans to increase carbon taxes to boost support for renewable energy and will repay a longstanding renewables-related debt to utility EDF, the government said on Wednesday.
    The government’s 2018 draft budget set a trajectory for higher carbon taxes on fossil fuel – part of a tax on transport and heating fuels paid by all consumers – but again exempted companies’ CO2 emissions…

    Trucking and taxi companies, as well as agriculture are also exempt.
    “Support for renewable energy … will be increasingly financed by a tax on fossil fuel consumption,” the environment ministry said in a statement.

    The carbon tax will increase from 30.50 euros ($35.81) per tonne this year to 44.6 euros in 2018, 55 euros in 2019, 65.40 euros in 2020, 75.80 euros in 2021 and 86.20 euros in 2022. There was no mention of a target level for 2030.
    Under an energy transition law in 2015, French CO2 taxes were set to increase to 39 euros in 2018, 47.5 euros in 2019, 56 euros en 2020 and 100 euros in 2030.
    The higher carbon tax, along with a tax increase on diesel, will boost the price of petrol by 3.9 euro cents per litre and the price of diesel by 7.6 euro cents per litre in 2018. The measures are expected to raise 3.7 billion euros next year…

    The ministry also said the government planned to spend 18.2 billion euros ($21.38 billion) in the next three years to boost the development of renewable energy projects: 5.5 billion euros in 2018, 6.2 billion in 2019 and 6.5 billion in 2020…

    A government source told Reuters the state planned to pay EDF 1.6 billion euros in 2018 and the rest of the 4.6 billion euro debt by 2020.
    For years, state-owned EDF has been forced to buy power at subsidised tariffs from renewable energy producers. The difference between subsidised and market prices was supposed to be financed via the so-called CSPE tax that power users pay.

    But as renewable energy capacity grew more quickly than the CSPE tax, the shortfall was financed by EDF and built up as debt in its balance sheet. At the end of 2015, the previous government admitted a 5.9 billion euro debt to EDF and put in place a reimbursement scheme…
    EDF shares recovered from early losses on the news and closed virtually unchanged.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/france-budget-carbon/update-2-france-raises-carbon-taxes-to-repay-edf-renewables-debt-idUSL8N1M832O

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    pat

    28 Sept: AOL: Press Association: Public charging network ‘threatens to be weak link’ in electric car uptake
    A study for motoring research charity the RAC Foundation found that without widespread, reliable and easy-to-use charging points, the mass market appeal of ultra-green vehicles may be limited.
    It could also hamper the Government’s plan to ban the sale of conventional petrol and diesel cars by 2040, the research warned…

    Mr Dermott found that the Department for Transport has encouraged quantity rather than quality in charge points, resulting in a network that is “unattractive to use and is unsuitable for encouraging the next wave of EV (electric vehicle) customers”.
    More than nine out of 10 (93%) EV owners use public charge points, but as of June some 13% were out of action at any one time, he said…

    ***The Committee on Climate Change has said 60% of new cars and vans must be electric by 2030 to meet carbon targets cost-effectively. ***In 2016 the proportion was 1.4%…

    RAC Foundation director Steve Gooding: “The danger is that the future of the electric car suffers the equivalent of bed-blocking in the NHS, with queues of frustrated drivers stymied by the lack of adequate, widespread, reliable refuelling opportunities.”
    https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2017/09/28/public-charging-network-threatens-to-be-weak-link-in-electric/

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    pat

    so much for all the alarmism!

    29 Sept: ABC: Great Barrier Reef starts to recover after severe coral bleaching, survey of sites between Cairns and Townsville shows
    By David Chen
    Scientists from the Australian Institute of Marine Science this month surveyed 14 coral reefs between Cairns and Townsville to see how they fared after being bleached.
    The institute’s Neil Cantin said they were surprised to find the coral had already started to reproduce…
    “[It's] very surprising as previous studies have shown a two-to-three year delay in reproductive activity following bleaching events…

    Dr Cantin said scientists found eggs at most of the reefs in the Cairns region, including at Arlington Reef and Fitzroy Island.
    “What it means is the corals along the entire Great Barrier Reef, are survivors that are going to reproduce earlier than expected which could help drive quicker recovery if we don’t see another heat stress this summer,” he said…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-29/coral-regeneration-raises-hopes-for-great-barrier-reef-recovery/9001518

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    David Maddison

    In what other area is a variable and unpredictable input to a production process considered acceptable?

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    Dave Ward

    This is a three cylinder Allen S47 engine made in 1935

    And that engine would outlast any “renewable” power plant being installed today

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      Another Ian

      Dave

      Re outlasting.

      Some of our vintage engines still on front line

      1940 Southern Cross YC 7 hp diesel

      1952 Cooper CM 3.5 hp diesel

      1955 Kelly and Lewis VEB 5 hp diesel

      In reserve 1948 Petter AV1 5 hp, 1955 Moffat Virtue MM 8 hp

      As far as is known none have yet had their first rebuild

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        Dave Ward

        Another Ian – Not quite in the same league, but during the 70′s, I went to school in buses powered by Gardner diesel engines. I know that many (if not most of them) went “round the clock” (100,000 miles) every year – in some cases for 25 years, before retirement. And that was virtually all stop-start city driving. I was told that a top end decoke was normally performed after 250,000 miles, and a complete rebuild after 1,000,000 miles. I’ll bet some of those same engines are STILL earning their keep to this day – driving the generators powering fairground rides…

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    Robert Rosicka

    One thing I notice the more often I look at the AEMO dashboard is the scary reality that Victoriastan is quite often the vital cog in the eastern seaboard link , NSW, QLD and SA are quite often having power sent via Vic due to a shortfall in those other states as is happening now .
    I know NSW sends some of what it gets from vic to QLD but my point is at times like now if Victoriastan was to have a state wide outage it would bring down most of the other states except Tasmania .
    A very scary thought indeed relying on us .

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    Dennis

    Caterpillar might be happy to sell them hybrid diesel-solar-wind generation systems, which would minimize the use of expensive diesel fuel with solar PV or wind turbines, all from a company with a proven track record.

    http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2016/05/what-s-behind-caterpillar-s-new-hybrid-microgrid-play-here-s-a-deeper-look.html
    http://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/electric-power-generation/electric-power-industries/renewable-energy.html

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    Nuke Lover

    Victoriastan. Don’t worry – Lily D’Ambrosio is the state Minister for Energy & Resources. She will provide lotsa windmills, etc, to replace those filthy killerwatt brown coal power generators. Just you wait…. and wait.

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    This is good news. Soon the Farmers and others of South Australia hit by loony electricity prices will be pumping out that good old CO2 on a really industrial scale once again and all the plants will be rejoicing.

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