JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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John Kerry: Air conditioner, fridge gas, as big a threat as ISIS

Let’s get those priorities right:

Secretary of State John Kerry said in Vienna on Friday that air conditioners and refrigerators are as big of a threat to life as the threat of terrorism posed by groups like the Islamic State.

Depends what you mean by “life” I guess. Some like the world 2 degrees cooler, and some prefer to keep their heads.

“As we were working together on the challenge of [ISIS] and terrorism,” Kerry said. “It’s hard for some people to grasp it, but what we–you–are doing here right now is of equal importance because it has the ability to literally save life on the planet itself.”

It’s good to know the US will be well defended against an invasion of badly gassed fridges.

Since warming is mostly beneficial this threat is at the Defcon-Toothfairy level. And probably not that high. The extra energy trapped by HFC refrigerant gasses most likely just reroutes and escapes to space through water vapor emissions.

Fighting a war on fairies has consequences. Putting a fake free market value on HFC emissions (which is the gas Kerry is talking about) created an industry where Chinese factories made lots of the polluting byproduct called HFC-23 so they could later “clean up” the dirty factory and clean up with carbon credits at the same time. Then the regulators realized they were being gamed, cut the market, and the factories had to  release that “Climate bomb” anyway.

As Fred Singer says, this is a 1% forcing that they are talking about (1% of nothing):

Now, HFCs are what replaced HCFCs, which in turn replaced CFCs, thanks to the Montreal Protocol of 1987. This succession of chemical refrigerants has reduced ozone-destroying potential; but unfortunately they are all GH gases. So now HFCs must be eradicated, because a single molecule of HFC produces many thousand times the greenhouse effect of a molecule of CO2. What they don’t tell you, of course, is that the total forcing from the HFCs is less than one percent of that of CO2, according to the IPCC (see page 141). So “slaying the dragon” amounts to slaying a mouse…

h/t Scott

Alarmists need causes to gripe,
And startle the public with hype,
Such as warming the Poles,
And ozone with holes,
Talking CO2,HFC tripe.

–Rauiri

Now Lurch would tell us our fridge
Is a serious threat, ridgey didge.
Never mind the swine
Who kill mine and thine,
Such barbarity, just the bite of a midge.
– Lightning Camel
____

The usual ridiculous moderation rules apply to this post, thanks to 18C. Speak in satire, riddles, and sarc, but don’t offend any race, religion, or ethnicity no matter how offensive they may be. Comments may be randomly withheld for years.

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131 comments to John Kerry: Air conditioner, fridge gas, as big a threat as ISIS

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    I think the real threat is John Kerry, not air conditioners or any of the things he’s complaining about. For a man with a supposedly good education he’s awesomely naive.

    420

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Looking back at that article, we’re already using alternate refrigerants. What do they want? But more than that, I don’t know of a single stationary refrigeration unit, refrigerator, freezer or air conditioning system that can leak any of the refrigerant into the atmosphere unless you cut into the refrigerant lines somewhere. They are completely sealed systems. Everything is copper and sweat soldered together with the charging valves having caps with teflon seals that have no chance of leaking for the next thousand years. My air conditioning system was installed in 1998. It’s still going strong today, 18 years later. And it will be still going strong for a long time. These sealed systems are among the most reliable machinery ever to be invented. I ran a refrigerator for over 30 years before it had problems. But the trouble wasn’t leaking refrigerant but failed thermostat.

      Automotive systems are more vulnerable to leakage. The compressor shaft seal is one place where leaks are inevitable and there are necessarily other points of connection that can’t be sweat soldered together because the tubing is aluminum. Let John Kerry complain about something that actually might be a leakage problem and I’ll find him credible. Otherwise, strike three, John.

      250

      • #

        Kerry was in Vienna to amend the 1987 Montreal Protocol. So he was merely buttering up the crowd to make them feel important for fighting a life and death battle.

        Still he revealed that on his priority list… ISIL / HFC — not that different…

        232

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Kerry is a very self important man who’s head is far too big for his hat. He’s got nothing against badmouthing his country and the rest of the world too, just so he can show himself how important he is. And he’s still at it today. He may have been buttering up everyone else in Vienna but he was also showing off how important John Kerry is.

          If refrigerants are such a problem let the man live as he speaks and pull out the refrigeration systems in his various homes. But don’t hold your breath waiting for it.

          300

          • #
            Yonniestone

            In an overall way Roy, between refrigerators and terrorists Kerry is trying to put the heat on ICES……. :(

            90

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          Firstly Jo, thank you for using the correct abbreviation for ISIL* in your reply to Roy. It is a pity about the headline.

          Secondly, Roy makes a good point. In the majority of western countries, HFC refrigerators were withdrawn decades ago. Eastern Europe, less so, but are being removed. In Africa, it has not been a problem, because over most of the continent, people couldn’t afford to run refridgerators. Same in South America, and in Antartica …

          * Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. “The Levant” referring to the area at the eastern end of the Mediterranean basin. This area includes Syria, but is somewhat wider.

          102

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            RW,

            Can we then be completely honest and admit openly that Levant includes the State of Israel?

            On your other point: I didn’t mention that mine was one of the last A/C systems to squeak through using plain old freon 22 — R22 in the trade. So mine is one of those systems that if it did leak would let that evil stuff into the atmosphere. I would be up the creek for service unless I could find someone with an existing cache of R22 with which to recharge it if it ever gets to that. I don’t worry much about that knowing the reliability of modern refrigeration systems. But there’s always the unexpected failure…

            Since I’m doubtful about there being a real danger in CFCs I worry even less. The ozone hole isn’t caused by anything in the atmosphere as far as I can tell. No one has shone it to be anything but a natural phenomenon in spite of a lot of hysteria to the contrary. But like global warming, the big fear is based on imagination more than sound research. Big red herring to me.

            At least in the states we do recapture all but a tiny part of the refrigerant instead of just releasing it. I think that’s fairly sound policy whatever the substance is.

            141

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Roy,

              Levant is the term used, by most parties (except the press) because it is the ancient name for that geographic area. Palestine was part of the Levant when it was ruled by Rome. So yes, I can be completely honest and admit that it includes modern-day Israel, and Gaza and the West Bank, along with Cyprus, Egypt, Greece, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Syria and parts of Turkey.

              Use of the word Levant is preferred, in “polite” circles, because it allows people to discuss the geographic area, whilst avoiding most of the religious, tribal, and political implications, that just happen to be manifest, today. But this area has it’s own complex and deep history of wars and conquest, and famine, and plague, which reach over time to affect the way that peoples in those countries view themselves, their neighbours, and the world in general.

              The term “American Mid-West” serves much the same purpose. It is a geographical area, but carries implications about lifestyle, attitudes, politics, etc, that are more than the just the land area.

              Mr Kerry may want to declare war on ISIS, but in reality, he would be declaring war on some people, who hold particular political and religeous views, who happen to live in some countries within the geography known as the Levant. How well is that going to work for him? Naming the geography involved, puts his idea and his grandstanding into perspective.

              30

              • #
                Roy Hogue

                Thank you. And I mean that.

                Unfortunately this is only true for a small percentage of the U.S. population as far as I can tell.

                Naming the geography involved, puts his idea and his grandstanding into perspective.

                I wish it could be otherwise but sadly, we just aren’t there. And in the meantime, that Israel is one of their targets is something everyone should know. In spite of some disdain if not outright rejection of Israel, there is a lot of support for our Jewish ally. And I don’t miss a chance to make it known that ISIL is aiming squarely at our only real ally in the region.

                00

          • #
            Analitik

            using the correct abbreviation for ISIL

            Being a translation, ISIL vs ISIS is a preference – arguably ISIL is a slightly more literal translation but if we want to indulge in this sort of hair splitting, it should be IS, follow the renaming of the organisation in June 2014.
            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-vs-isil-vs-islamic-state-what-is-in-a-name-9731894.html
            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27994277

            I use ISIS simply because Malcolm Turnbull uses ISIL

            20

      • #
        tom0mason

        From http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f040cc3a-f45a-11db-88aa-000b5df10621.html ($paywalled$)

        Chemicals companies and some carbon traders have been making big profits from the international trade in carbon – and a new wave of factories and traders are set to join them.
        Projects to destroy a potent greenhouse gas known as HFC-23, a byproduct of the manufacture of refrigerants, make up the bulk of the carbon credits set to be issued under the Kyoto protocol.
        However, funding HFC reductions through carbon credits has been found to be hugely inefficient. Michael Wara, formerly of Stanford University, published a study in the peer-review journal Nature showing ý4.6bn ($6.3bn, £3.1bn) spent on carbon credits – by taxpayers in the rich world and companies seeking to offset emissions – would finance the installation of “scrubbers” at HFC plants costing a total ¬100m.
        Companies can reap tens of millions of carbon credits because each tonne of HFC-23 is the equivalent of 11,700 tonnes of carbon dioxide.
        The credits fetch up to ¬15 a tonne. But the supply of credits is drying up, as the United Nations – reacting to reports of big profits – has ruled that only HFC factories built before 2004 could qualify.
        However, a Financial Time’s investigation has uncovered a new wave of chemicals, fertilizer and explosives factories – and the brokers that trade in their credits – that are set to be the next big beneficiaries of the Kyoto protocol.

        The Age has a good write up about how the scám works at http://www.theage.com.au/business/how-the-smart-guys-are-making-a-killing-out-of-the-carbon-credits-trade-20080804-3q05.html

        Basically set-up a refrigerant factory; register it for carbon credits and make $$$money. Why have customer when you’re paid to produce on the promise to reduce pollution soon.

        130

        • #
          Rod Stuart

          Oh, but that spunky super funky always skunky little monkey Bunky Moon knows how to achieve “a world of peace, dignity and opportunity for all.”
          A world government just like the EU which is a model of the old Soviet experiment is all that is needed. Just lovely!

          70

    • #
      Leonard Lane

      Roy it is hard to tell if Kerry is that stupid, or if he is just a toady to his [snip] boss. I suspect it is both. He has a history from the Viet Nam War when he put himself in for a Purple Heart (wounded) medal for a minor scratch, when he symbolically threw his medals away as a protest (and later said he didn’t). As bad as Bush was in some areas (nation building, illegal immigration, shielding and flying hundreds of Saudis home in secret after the 911 terrorists attacks), he was much more sensible, intelligent, and patriotic than Kerry.
      Kerry will say or do anything that supports the radical leftists.

      [Sorry for the snip but Jo's rules are Jo's rules. And we do not know that for certain about Kerry's boss.] AZ

      81

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Kerry and Bush junior & senior are members of the Skull and Bones (occult ) secret society

        00

    • #
      stan stendera

      In republican circles in the USA John Kerry is frequently referred to as “Lurch” after a comic character in a TV series.

      80

    • #
      Ursus Augustus

      If you want an explanation for why Putin, Assad, Erdogan, ISIS/L, the Egyptian military, Trump and all the other right wing – fascist nut jobs are doing rather well look no further than Obama & Kerry, a pair of limp, effete, self important hand washing dillettantes who make Jimmy Carter look like a no nonsense, can do kinda guy. They have created a vacuum in world leadership the likes of which we have not seen since “Peace in Our Time”. They might want to be the nice guys in which case they can select the private dinner parties they attend. Meanwhile, in their day jobs, there are complete frigging animals to be dealt with (and CO2 is not one of them).

      50

    • #
      Geoffrey Williams

      Agreed but even more so – ‘Awesomely stupid’ some would say.
      But then again maybe not so stupid. Maybe he just makes a lot of money pushing the global warming mantra – like Hillary!
      GeoffW

      10

    • #
      Albert

      I wasn’t aware Kerry had a gas problem !

      00

    • #
      Jim from Maine

      Well…this speaks to the so-called “education”, among other things.

      Some of you from away, may or may not be aware that before the Obama admin, and Kerry’s current appointment, he was awarded the “Dead-head Senator” award for spending the most time in congress without ever introducing a SINGLE PIECE OF LEGISTLATURE.
      That’s right…not one friggin bill.

      Nothing but a total asshat.

      00

  • #
    Anton

    John Kerry is actually as big a threat to Western Civilisation as ISIS, because he is charged with defending and advocating it but has no idea how to do so.

    290

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      A good place for him to start, would have been for him to actually listen to his professional advisors, and to try and understand what it was, that they were saying.

      Far too many politicians go into briefings, already “knowing” what the answer to a problem is.

      120

  • #

    Look at any building taller than 2 or 3 levels, in other words, any city skyline. Every single one of those buildings has an aircon unit on the roof, and the taller the building, the more units and the bigger the units.

    Every single one of them is required absolutely to be running all the time.

    Why?

    It may be referred to as ….. air conditioning, but in every case, those units supply and circulate breathing air into and out of those buildings. They are set at the same temperature all year round, so in Summer they feel cool, and in Winter they feel warm. All that needs to be done is to change the mode (cool/warm) over twice a year, but the primary task is to recirculate air for breathing in those buildings, and it’s just consitioned during the process.

    They cannot be turned off, ever, otherwise there is no breathing air inside the building, hence it becomes virtually uninhabitable.

    Then you have every Mall, same thing, huge units.

    Then you have every Supermarket with their huge banks of cool, cold, and frozen storage.

    It’s not just the personal home air conditioning units and refrigerators. That consumption is absolutely tiny by comparison with a single Coles or Woolies, or a tall building, be it for residential purposes or as a workplace.

    Every single one of them requires refrigerant gases, and lots of them too.

    What does John Kerry propose, that we make cities uninhabitable, close down those workplaces in the cities, shut down every supermarket.

    Madness!

    John Kerry, open mouth change feet!

    Tony.

    410

    • #
      tom0mason

      “John Kerry, open mouth change feet!”

      Is that before or after he leaves his air conditioned plane to the air conditioned limousine? Or maybe before he is whisked off to a high-powered lunch meeting?
      Is that before or after he eats a serving of cool exotic salad, drinks the chilled drinks, eats the main course consisting of ‘fresh’ ingredients imported from all over the world, and finishes by partaking of an ice-cream construction of fearful complication?
      Will he open mouth and change feet within the cooled comfort of the large, beautifully marble clad concrete building.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      John Kerry the hypocrite.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      240

    • #
      RobK

      As the refrigerant gases stray further from CF4(freon or R12), the mass of gas required to pump a given quantity of heat increases, so the system needs to be charged with more mass for a particular job.
      Freon was pretty much inert to the lubrication oil in the sealed motors, giving long life to pumps.
      Freon is non flammable. The more H in the compound the greater the risk of fire/explosion, especially those refrigerants that contain ammonia or propane.

      130

      • #
        RobK

        Refigerants by their very definition have to be “greenhouse gases”. Absorbing heat is their job description, if they didn’t your a/c or fridge wouldn’t work.star comment

        241

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          They don’t absorb useful amounts of heat under any old circumstances though. Refrigerants absorb large quantities of heat, known as the heat of vaporization, because they are allowed to literally boil away from their liquid state once they come under the much lower pressure in the evaporator part of the system. Otherwise their heat absorbtion qualities are similar to those of any other gas.

          The vapor is drawn back to the compressor where it’s put under high pressure again which raises it’s temperature, as would happen when you compress any gas, then put through a system of cooling fins where it loses that heat to the atmosphere and can condense back to liquid form and stay that way as long as it’s kept under pressure until it gets back to the evaporator.

          Anything that changes from gas to liquid and back to gas as the pressure changes could in theory be a refrigerant, even water.

          It all relies on the fact that at the point where it changes state it requires much more heat to be absorbed to change from liquid to gas than to keep raising its temperature before it gets to that vaporization point and gives off that same amount of heat during the transition back to liquid. Typical refrigerants have a very low boiling temperature under the low pressure in the evaporator or they wouldn’t be very useful.

          Dictionary definitions leave something to be desired but I included one for reference.

          110

          • #
            RobK

            You are quite right Roy. As I pressed the post button I realized I should have said “wouldn’t work nearly as well”.
            The system relies on latent heat of vapourization, then on the specific heat of the molecule. So selection of the gas is determined by the boiling point of the gas (determining the operating pressure and pressure difference across the pump) and the specific heat of the gas which determines the size of the heat exchangers at each end. In practical terms all the refrigerants are greenhouse gasses. In special applications there are exceptions.

            60

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              Thanks.

              Studying refrigeration systems is a maze of considerations and the installation, charging and determination of whether you have it charged exactly right was something I went through just to satisfy my curiosity. It was an eye opener for me as I watched the installers put it together and put it into operation — not nearly as simple as I had thought.

              The system was installed in September over two of the hottest days of the year. Both the electrician and the refrigeration specialist were up in the attic where the temperature could have been as much as 130° F (54° C) (or higher?) and I was worried that I might need to call for help and my ceiling would be chopped apart to get them out. But they made it.

              00

        • #
          TdeF

          There are three ways of passing heat, radiation, conduction and convection. Absorbing and releasing heat on compression and expansion through conduction, the basic principle of refrigeration has nothing to do with capturing radiant infra red light? This is the difference between a thick blanket with air pockets which stops convection and conduction through air movement and a thin silver blanket which stops radiation. Greenhouse gases are the second type.

          00

      • #
        Analitik

        As the refrigerant gases stray further from CF4(freon or R12), the mass of gas required to pump a given quantity of heat increases, so the system needs to be charged with more mass for a particular job

        And another consequence is that this makes the compressors work harder for the same amount of heat transferred, reducing efficiency. Just ask any airconditioning technician or serviceperson (18C compliance) who has worked from the early ’90s

        All this nonsense increases power consumption, leading, ultimately, to more CO2 release from vehicle engines and fossil fueled power plants. Of course, John Kerry and his ilk would use this as yet another reason to attack airconditioning

        60

    • #
      Rod Stuart

      Tony, add to that the artificial ice in hockey and curling arenas all over North America, and ice making machines in general.

      40

    • #
      Analitik

      Large buildings can be cooled with just air circulation – the Empire State Building did not have airconditioning until the 1950′s. You need a lot more of it and windows that open plus it gets very uncomfortable on a hot day (watch an old 1930′s B&W movie about New York).

      What you cannot have without airconditioning are modern, sealed skyscrapers and malls and underground complexes.

      As well as comfort being vastly increased by air conditioning, winter heating costs are reduced due to reduced leakage with sealed buildings.

      As with all greenwash ideology, the only “solution” is reverting to subsistence level societies.

      71

      • #

        Analitik says it perfectly here.

        A good example of this comes from just looking at perhaps the most ignored, and yet so simple, graphs for electrical power consumption, typical Load Curves.

        The example shown at this link is a generic one, but is the same for anywhere where there is a reliable supply of electricity, on any scale.

        See the difference between the Summer Curve (orange) and the Winter Curve. (blue)

        Note that in Summer, there is just the one ‘hump’, while in Winter there is the AM peak, and then the PM peak, the typical rise in the morning at home and get ready, and then go to work, and then come home turn on the heating etc.

        During the Summer, those huge buildings, work places all of them get hot from the outside through all that glass. The set Temperature, (same all year round as I explained above) is lower than the ambient outside, and all that glass is heating up the inside, and so the compressors (the big power consumers) for all those roof units have to work harder and longer to keep the inside temperature bearable, all the while circulating breathing air through the building.

        However, in the Winter, (with the same temp setting, only the mode now switched to warm) all those buildings still get heated from the outside via all that glass. Only now, the ambient day temperature is closer to the now warmer inside temperature as the day warms up outside, and because of that the compressors cycle for considerably less time, and the only thing running are those unit’s fans (considerably less power consumption than the compressors) circulating breathing air throughout the building.

        This is graphically shown when comparing that typical load curve with a Christmas Day load curve. (shown at this link) Here in Oz, Christmas Day is in Summer, and the load curve shown, mind you with no one anywhere at work in those buildings, and everyone at home with what should be the biggest home power consumption of the year, that Load Curve for Christmas Day, is hugely less power and almost in the same shape as for a typical Winter load curve.

        Those units are in every building, virtually every workplace, and now, every school, in every Mall, every shop, in nearly every building in every town or city. Turn them off and just have the air circulating through all of them, and every one of those buildings becomes an oven, cooking everything and everyone inside them.

        That is the real air conditioning so called problem, not home air conditioning and refrigeration.

        Tony.

        60

        • #
          Planning Enginner

          I agree with what you are saying. The “green” response is likely that “storage”, efficiency, solar panels, fuel cells… will enable the transition, providing energy and flattening load shapes. One day, they or similar technologies may enable such change. But for near term it’s just a mix of hope, dreams and quasi magical thinking. Some think you can master plan great changes in massive steps. I prefer to see demonstrated proof of concepts in niche applications (and understanding their performance in context) before calling for idespread change.

          00

      • #
        Len

        In the Building industry, this is referred to as HVAC. Heating, ventilation & Airconditioning. Also called Mechanical Services. This is carried out by specialist subcontractors.

        10

        • #

          This is carried out by specialist subcontractors.

          And “HVAC” Engineers. They are just Mech.Eng types.

          The reason for specialisation is the minefield of regulations. Not that that helps with the actual air quality insider the building once it’s operational.

          It’s not sufficient to maintain only temperature; moisture content also has to be monitored so there is enough moisture in the air for comfort; too dry an people in the building tend to suffer from bronchial problems an greater susceptibility to infections as their phlegm dries out. Too damp and you get fungal growths in the warmer areas.

          For us climate infidels, its important to recognize that temperatures at a nominal location in the building cannot be controlled more closely than about ±1°C. In part due to sensor resolution but also because the building’s climate is being continuously perturbed by weather and internally by the movement of people and their stuff. If you need a room such as a metrology lab with better temperature control than that, you put it far away from external walls, limit access as much as possible an install a unit to “temper” the equipment being moved into the room as well as the air conditions in the room. Even then, you’re not going to get repeatable ±0.1°C temperature control.

          30

          • #

            …..its important to recognize that temperatures at a nominal location in the building cannot be controlled more closely than about ±1°C.

            Ah, yes! Klixons.

            Tony.

            20

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Bernd,

            There is a partial solution to the ±1°C problem, especially considering that commercial thermostats offer more like ±2°C resolution or worse and that’s to make thermostats smarter, smart enough to actually measure how fast they warm up and cool off and then use that information to anticipate when to come on and shut off again so as not to overshoot. Since I installed one that does that I’ve enjoyed much more constant air temperature than I ever had with all the prior thermostats I’ve had on my wall — probably 5 of them, including one costing me nearly twice what the current one did. They are finally getting smart enough to use the microprocessors in thermostats for something more sophisticated than timers to decide when to switch from one temperature to the next in your program for the day.

            It’s a Honeywell RTH600D if anyone is interested. They also make an even more expensive one that you can get a phone app for so you can manipulate it remotely via the Internet from anywhere. And I’ve seen even more sophisticated ones advertized.

            10

            • #

              You could spend $10,000 per room to get a stable temperature. e.g. wide-angle FLIR that’s processed to regulate dampers in particular areas of the one room. That amount of zone control, within a room, is essential if you don’t want to circulate air at high volumes. Areas immediately in front of windows need their own control zone; triple glazing will help a little but there will still be a perception of heat on hot days unless the zone is cooled below the nominal temperature.

              If high circulation is acceptable, make sure that it covers the area of e.g. high insolation. Convection will reduce the peaks.

              I gather that fewer and fewer system employ actual thermostats. Networks of temperature and humidity sensors throughout a building provide information to the central controller that operated airflow dampers and heat pumps.

              Regulated industry sectors innovate more slowly than what is technically possible so adoption has been delayed by about 20 years. The regulations don’t even have to directly prevent innovation; the presence of tight regulation causes people to resist change even when it’s permitted by the regulations.

              00

      • #
        Analitik

        Red thumber, you may think I am try to attack or undermine Anton by being such a pedant with edge cases. I add information like this because the more intelligent greenwash will try to use these exceptions as reasons to dismiss the whole of the underlying line of argument.

        Distraction by arguing on trivialities and plausible but ultimately impractical “solutions” is the tactic of these trolls and lobbyists and you end up playing “whack a mole” which the general public see as uncertainty. These edges cases need to be filled in to give them no wriggle room at all so they just look stupid when they try to present exceptions to validate their positions.

        Of course recognition with thumbs is nice but I just want to arm as many people as possible with the information needed to debunk the BS. I am certain Anton puts so much time and effort into his posts and blog for the same reason.

        30

  • #
    richard ilfeld

    When people violate common sense so egregiously, and their followers chant hosannas, I’m afraid we are facing cult deprogramming rather the persuasion in the public arena of ideas.

    200

    • #

      This is why I call them the Insane Left and say that it is likely to end in real war; remember what happened with the Jim Jones cult, for example: They ended up killing a US congressman and then all committing suicide (and the parents murder) by drinking poisoned Kool-Aid.

      50

  • #
    Tinsmith from Mars

    I have to conclude that John Kerry has scrapped all his home and cars air conditioners, his fridges and freezers and preserves all his food in brine and sea salt. Hypocrisy rules OK.

    160

  • #
    Robert O

    How many people are going to perish due to global warming caused by air conditioners, or die due to heat stress because of a lack of A/C?

    120

  • #
    F. Ross

    Even if what Kerry asserts were true – which it is not – one wonders just how many air conditioners and refrigerators there are in the Kerry-Heinz mansions, yachts, limousines, vacation “cottages”, etc? Hypocrite.

    150

    • #
      sophocles

      They will all be Montreal Protocol approved.

      As an aside, Dr, Susan Solomon, Computer Modeller Extraordinaire, has claimed the Antarctic Ozone Hole is “showing signs of healing.” It’s size and depth is usually measured around the end of October. The NASA ozone data page has two bar graphs showing annual area and annual reduction. The trend is not visible there. 2016′s “data” is going to be very interesting.

      00

  • #
    DMA

    This may not be the place for this, but I need some help. There was a column in the local paper by a professor here at Montana State U.about effects of climate change on wildlife in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem. He stated as fact that the area has warmed 20 deg. F since the 1880s. and is expected to warm 6F more by end of century. My review of the data from Galatin field shows over 10F since 1940 but there has been huge expansion of the airport and surrounding areas not to mention vast changes to the agriculture in the area.

    My question : Could an region that covers a fair share of Montana and Wyoming have warmed 20F while the globe has warmed about 1F?

    40

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      I’m far from the reigning expert here. But I tend to doubt 20° F so much that I think it might be a typo.

      Hopefully someone with more insight into the question can give you a better answer. But 20° F doesn’t stand up under even cursory examination.

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      Steven Fraser

      Depends on what the guy really meant. Here is a site to use for Yellowstone Park:

      http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/yellowstone-national-park/wyoming/united-states/uswy0292/2016/7

      It shows the average high for the year as 46 degrees, and avg low as 20. Does he mean that those two values were -20F from that in 1880? Or since the July and Aug avg high temp is 72, that it used to be 52?

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      Dave in the States

      The 20 degree F differential numbers seem out of whack, but this could be a case of making a comparison to an anomaly or using an anomaly as the base line. In this region of N. America the years around 1880 were uncommonly cold. This is a known historical fact. Up until 1876 cattle were grazed on the ranges year around in those regions. After 1876 this was no longer possible and still is not possible. In fact hundreds of thousands of cattle were killed by this sudden change. Ranchers now must prepare all summer putting up hay and other forage for the long harsh winters. The winters were mild during the previous decades leading up to 1876 in those regions. Then the regional climate changed suddenly with severe winters in these regions and a relative plummet in average temperatures. The average temperatures have been gradually increasing since about 1880 in those regions.

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      • #
        KinkyKeith

        Interesting

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      • #
        Dave in the States

        I did some checking and it appears that 1886 was the real bad winter. There was a series of harsh winters starting from 1880 and a real killer winter in 1886/1887 in these regions. I also found reference to the dendro chronology record for these regions and from 1865 through 1880 it was unusually wet with a longer growing season than usual for these regions. The growing season in the Yellowstone area is usually only about 30 days.

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        • #
          Dave in the States

          It also appears that there is a rather large range for average temperatures from year to year in these regions. Yearly average temps can vary from as low as 42 degrees F to as much as 57 degrees F.

          10

  • #

    The good news is we could each fix the planet for the price of a haircut. The bad news is that it’s a Kerry Haircut. Maintaining the Le Bouffant costs more than some African GDPs. (It’s the Gulfstreams more than the scissors and blowdry.)

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    gary turner

    I suppose if that ignorant member of the wankeratti [I'll pass this through but please do avoid it in the future] (tnx to James D for the term) doesn’t want modern refrigerants, we can always return to the glorious (if deadly) past and use ammonia. Or is it ammonium? I never can get them straight.

    gary

    [It was ammonia.] AZ

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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Gary,

      I did a quick look on the internet and there is apparently quite a resurgence of ammonia for refrigeration. Apparently it attractive because it’s less costly than the more acceptable substitutes for CFCs. It’s also deadly if released in an enclosed space and dangerous even if released outdoors in sufficient quantity.

      I found this example of the danger without much trouble.

      I would have thought the danger of the stuff would have seen the last of it go out of use long ago but apparently not.

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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      I always forget too. Or is that amnesia?

      50

    • #

      Ammonia NH3, the gas, although deadly to air breathers is perhaps the most benign refrigerant. Easily sealed from any leaks, is the refrigerant used in all RVs, as nothing mechanically powered is required, a small propane flame, or battery heating element, Keeps beer cold, and venison frozen until needed. No moving parts whatsoever! All the Chemical companies hate the stuff!
      All the best! -will-

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      • #

        There are absorbtion refrigerators that utilise heat to power the cycle. Ammonia in water is one working fluid for that. The refrigerating effect with ammonia solution is however less than unity. i.e. the heat input is greater than the refrigerating effect.

        Compressor-based systems have refrigerating effects significantly above 1; exceeding 5 under certain operating conditions — dominated by the condenser’s temperature.

        i.e. those nasty HFCs, CFC’s etc can reduce primary energy consumption by a factor of 5.

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Will,

        Those flame powered refrigerators were once quite popular in household use. Just a small gas flame going all the time and voila, you have a refrigerator. How they pull that off is an interesting study too.

        There’s no limit to human ingenuity.

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  • #
    Mike Smith

    It much be nice to live in the Obama/Kerry bubble where your biggest challenges in life are concerned with your domestic appliances.

    Anyway, gotta run. I fear my toaster is on the blink and I better attend to same before it blows the Earth off its proper orbital trajectory.

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  • #
    John Robertson

    Lurch actually makes me think the “Aliens Walk Amongst Us” speculation might be true.
    The sheer idiocy of these self appointed leaders, is almost impossible to parody.
    Then for self professed intelligent persons, to declare that atmospheric plantfood is “pollution” and propose we eliminate all emissions is just so implausible.
    Of course I forsee a winning solution..Let us combat Terrorism by bombing them with such ego’s as Lurch.
    The Worshippers of the desert [snip, sorry, 18C] will rapidly decide their God has abandoned them.

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    • #
      Len

      I actually met “Lurch” in Los Angeles in 1975 at the World Karate Do Championships. I was with the Australian Team. He was a nice guy. After he left us my karate teacher told me that the man was “Lurch”.

      10

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  • #
    Ruairi

    Alarmists need causes to gripe,
    And startle the public with hype,
    Such as warming the Poles,
    And ozone with holes,
    Talking CO2,HFC tripe.

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  • #
    Amber

    Too much acid in the 60′s ?

    Someone needs to explain to Kerry there is no earth thermostat and climate
    changes when ever it wants . Just like always .
    Yes CO2 is going up so the plants and trees are loving that .

    When the earth is enjoying a relative sweet spot in a historical climate context
    The Secretary of the USA see’s that climate change as the biggest threat and we should fight
    climate change . How exactly does one fight climate change ? Wouldn’t “adapt ” to climate change
    make more sense ? You know put on a coat if cold or a short sleeve shirt if warm ?
    We already have the whole climate change thing figured out . If your real agenda is
    promoting renewables then take heart trees will grow faster , fish will have a bigger place to swim
    and less of that so called dastardly fossil fuel will be needed . Still not Happy ?

    If you are just against open ,democratic countries and free speech well please continue to pee your pants and stamp
    you feet . But lets not hide your real agenda behind climate fear mongering . That is just a big fat whopper that doesn’t fool anyone .

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  • #
    Eddy Aruda

    Maybe Secretary Kerry can convene a meeting of the senior executives of companies that produce major appliances, have everybody hold hands and have James Taylor lead them in a song? By doing so he can combat global warming and terrorism at the same time!

    Kerry is about as effective a statesman as a football bat!

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    • #
      PeterPetrum

      What really amazes (intrigues/disappoints, take your pick) me is do people like Kerry not have access to qualified persons (even from the industry involved) that can brief him on the technical and practical aspects of these issues before he goes to an international meeting to big note himself, but just ends up making an absolute fool of himself.

      I can see Australia’s Josh Freydenberg (the new minister for climate and energy) rapidly falling into the same trap when he convenes a meeting of state and federal energy ministers to plan the move to renewable energy in order to reduce CO2 emissions. Can he not find someone to explain to him why this is absolute folly, on a range of grounds. Just look at South Australia.

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      • #
        Rod Stuart

        Malcolm Roberts of the Galileo Movement spent many hours explaining the truth to [snip -Fly] Hunt.
        Greg Hunt is about as close to John Kerry as it gets in Australia.
        Does anyone know whether or not Malcolm Roberts got a seat in the senate? Perhaps Josh would understand what Roberts= has to tell him.

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        • #
          PeterPetrum

          The Senate count is STILL progressing and there are no final results yet on the preference distribution. Pauline Hanson is still confident she will get 3 or 4, and Malcolm Roberts may be one. Good if he is, but even if he isn’t , I am sure he will be providing Pauline with policy advice on climate issues. His bio can be found here..

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      • #
        Analitik

        Contact him and express your opinions then repeat with your local member (or if you live in a Labor/Green electorate a state senator). I have.

        http://www.joshfrydenberg.com.au/guest/contact.aspx

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    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      I went to the local golf club shop, and said I wanted a golf bat. The guy behind the counter said I had to buy a club. I said I couldn’t afford a club, I just wanted a bat …

      And so on and so forth …

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  • #
    handjive

    I can safely report my refrigerator has not attempted to behead me.
    . . .
    It’s deja vu all over again for 97% science suckers that Kerry appeals to …

    Brisbane’s City Plaza was buzzing as the revolutionary vehicle was unveiled on July 14, 1980.

    Horvath’s hydrogen Fairlane

    “It might have looked like any other 1974 Ford Fairlane, but Horvath insisted that under the green bonnet was a device which could turn water into hydrogen via a
    controlled, thermonuclear reaction.

    Conventional wisdom was that you needed to surround such a reaction with tonnes of concrete shielding, but Horvath’s V8 emitted less radiation than a colour TV.

    Or so he said.”
    ~ ~ ~
    > > > Fast Forward to July 22 , 2016 >>>

    Cheap and clean: Australian company creates hydrogen with near-zero emissions

    “As natural gas passes through the heated iron ore catalyst, methane in the gas breaks down into its constituent elements: hydrogen and carbon.

    But instead of carbon dioxide, would-be emissions are captured in the form of solid graphite.”
    . . .
    Isn’t carbon (sic) as dangerous as a thermonuclear reaction?

    [handjive, I don't know why this ended up in moderation. It looks entirely OK to me.] AZ

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    • #
      handjive

      Oops.
      Missing link re: graphite -

      “Both diamond and graphite are made entirely out of carbon, as is the more recently discovered buckminsterfullerene (a discrete soccer-ball-shaped molecule containing carbon 60 atoms). The way the carbon atoms are arranged in space, however, is different for the three materials, making them allotropes of carbon.

      http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-can-graphite-and-diam/

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      handjive

      All good.
      Me no complain!

      Let me take this opportunity to thank you AZ, and all mods for your moderation, and Jonova for the open forum.

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  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    Too much acid in the 60′s wasn’t the problem. Not having those brain cells to use fifty years later, is the problem.

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    Gerard

    The original Rowland and Molina study blaming cfc for ozone depletion has been found wanting. Ozone hole changes in size in line with temperature. It appears thzt the Montreal Protocol was simply a trial run for the climate change scam.

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  • #
    Neville

    Of course the mitigation of their so called CAGW is the greatest fra-d the world has ever seen.
    Even Dr Hansen called COP 21 just BS and fra-d and said a belief in solar and wind is akin to believing in fairy stories.
    Just look at page 3 of the Obama govt’s latest EIA report. It tells us that human Co2 emissions will increase by 34% by 2040.
    And most of that increase will come from the developing world over the next 24 years. IOW China, India etc couldn’t give a stuff about silly Kerry’s delusional and nonsensical fairy tales.

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    • #
      Raven

      Even Dr Hansen called COP 21 just BS . .

      Sure, but James Hansen was on to the ‘dangers’ of air conditioners right from the start.
      He famously had them turned off prior to his presentation to the U.S. Senate committee on a hot day in 1988!
      What a legend . .

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    TedM

    I’m sorry but I’ve always considered John Kerry to be a total ass, and as Secretary of State for the most powerful country in the free world to be a total embarrassment.

    I’m sure that leaders of the eastern block see him as a joke.

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    Neville

    Sorry here is the link to the EIA May 2016 report.

    https://www.eia.gov/pressroom/presentations/sieminski_05112016.pdf

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    PeterS

    Does he really think that the world’s largest residential air-conditioner manufacturer, which happens to be Gree Electric in China, is going to listen to him? If anything China must be laughing their heads off with that sort of nonsense coming out of a fool like John Kerry. Forget climate change John Kerry and focus on the real problems of the world. But I suppose they are too complex for your puny brain. Better still just resign and shut up – you are so full of it.

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  • #
    Yonniestone

    What they don’t tell you, of course, is that the total forcing from the HFCs is less than one percent of that of CO2,

    The (temporary) heat absorption ability of CO2 in our atmosphere is measured between 8 to 12 microns.

    A micrometer, also called a micron, is one thousand times smaller than millimeter. It is equal to 1/1,000,000th (or one millionth of meter). Things on this scale usually can’t be seen with your eyes. The diameter of a hair, which is 40-50 microns wide, is very hard to discern without the use of a magnifying glass.

    One micron in a human hair.

    One % of a micron is 10 nanometers or one billionth of a metre.

    Earths atmosphere height measures 12 km averaged, and in 12 thousand meters a layer one fifth of a human hair is the control knob for the planets air conditioning?

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    • #

      Yonniestone July 24, 2016 at 9:45 am

      “What they don’t tell you, of course, is that the total forcing from the HFCs is less than one percent of that of CO2,”
      What total BS! There is absolutely no atmospheric forcing whatsoever!

      “The (temporary) heat absorption ability of CO2 in our atmosphere is measured between 8 to 12 microns.”

      Sorry wrong!!! Atmospheric CO2 could absorb surface exitance between 14-16 microns if at low enough temperature. Because of upward convective heat transfer the temperature of any part of the troposphere is to high to absorb any surface exitance. However that same atmosphere continually dispatches excess thermal power to space.
      The guys at JPL, Caltech are very good! If they would stop tweeking for a wee bit. The rest of us idiots may start to catch up! Not likely! :-)
      All the best! -will-

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    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Yonnie

      Do you really not know, or are you pulling our legs?

      But at least, for the first time you got Will to explain the heat absorption mechanism of CO2 in the atmosphere.

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  • #
    Neville

    Paris COP 21 is supposed to mitigate the planet’s CAGW over the 21st century and S&W are supposed to help us achieve this mitigation.
    But when you actually look at Lomborg’s graph on the outcomes of this 21st century mitigation you understand why even Dr Hansen called Paris COP 21 BS and fra-d.
    There is a pessimistic and optimistic line on the graph, but there is very little difference between the two. The best outcome is a reduction of 0.17 C by 2100 and the pessimistic outcome is a reduction of just 0.05 C. He claims the cost over the next 84 years would be 100 trillion for no measureable difference to the planet’s temp at all.
    But nobody is told about these problems and people actually believe OZ will achieve some desirable outcome by installing much more costly and unreliable S&W energy. This is the ultimate super Ponzi scheme fra-d , yet nobody seems to have the guts to call it out. Why is that? Here is Lomborg’s graph.

    http://www.globalwarming.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Lomborg-Impact-of-INDCs-on-global-temperatures-graph-Nov-2015.png

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    Reed Coray

    John Kerry isn’t as dumb as he looks–I know that sounds impossible, but it’s true. He’s been married twice. His first bride was worth something like $100 million, and his current wife is worth about $500 million. See, he’s not so dumb.

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    • #
      Analitik

      Ditto for Al Gore. It’s called profiteering.

      But they have millions (billions?) of mindless, unthinking, well meaning (for gaia), concerned flunkies to do the believing for them.

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  • #

    If taxing HFC “fixes the climate”, then taxing the “lesser” problem of terrorism should also work.

    Only the rich will then be able to afford terrorism/refrigeration.

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    Egor TheOne

    This pretty well sums up BSer Kerry: https://danmillerinpanama.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ketchup-kerry.jpg

    This clown missed his true calling as ‘Lurch’ from the Addams Family!

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    TdeF

    I remember Colorado when it was -40C/-40F outside and musing that the freezer was actually far warmer than outside.
    Even on an ordinary winter’s day you get the energy insanity where the houses are overheated and the refrigerators use energy to pull this down by pumping the heat from the refrigerator out into the room? There must be enormous scope to cool without power. Perhaps refrigerators could vent into the walls and balance hot air from inside and cold air from outside, avoiding refrigeration costs in winter entirely. Still with the price of refrigerators and electricity in the US, it hardly matters.

    As Secretary of State a professional politician like Kerry seems, like Hillary, amazingly ignorant of the world outside the US. So a degree in political science suits him perfectly for Global Climate Warming Change as it is pure political science with not a shred of real science. So he can berate world leaders about made up science issues no one understands and none care. His end of the world scenario seems to involve refrigerators, not ISIL with nerve gas, North Korea with nuclear missiles or Chechnyans with stolen nuclear warheads or Russia and China with ICBMs In his strong view, if the world can just solve the desperate global warming refrigerator problem there can be world peace. Apparently.

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  • #
    pat

    available free right now…but only for the next hour. CAGW mentioned riht up front – it’s so scary:

    Clinton Cash
    http://www.breitbart.com/clinton-cash-movie/

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    • #
      TdeF

      The Clinton foundation receives $2,000,000,000 a year! Wow! Sloshing around is an understatement. Did the Australian government donate? If so how much, when and why?

      As Hilary said, they were broke after leaving the White House so the tens of millions of dollars in fees alone for speeches were needed. No wonder she had to keep her emails secret, even as Secretary of State. How much money does this couple control? The prospects for conflict of private and public interest are beyond counting and this woman is likely to be President?

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      • #
        TdeF

        As a last note, if they were broke, which is unlikely, it was from the huge legal costs in defending the allegations in the Whitewater scandal and then in Bill’s impeachment. This power couple has just stayed ahead of the law, as lawyers.

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    • #

      Why do I have to sign up for such? My mentor kitten, ‘kittycat/shadow’, says turn that damned thing off, ‘where is my food’? Kitten licks fingers, loves to have tummy rubbed upon.

      10

  • #
    LightningCamel

    Now Lurch would tell us our fridge
    Is a serious threat, ridgey didge.
    Never mind the swine
    Who kill mine and thine,
    Such barbarity, just the bite of a midge.

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    Robert Rosicka

    Mr Kerry is right , there is a danger from fridges and airconditioners .
    When they changed the gas over each unit became self aware and now they are plotting with Isis to take over the world .

    Well it makes just as much sense !

    20

    • #
      AndyG55

      “and now they are plotting with Isis to take over the world”

      Ahhhhh.. now that explains that container full of putrid ooze I found in the back of my fridge the other day !!

      Its GROWING !!!

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    sophocles

    I wonder if Kerry has sought the opinions and thoughts of all the Legionella bacteria living in the air conditioning units he is vilifying? After all, he is threatening their environment.

    20

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    AndyG55

    In a way, Kerry is right about air-conditioners causing a lot of the measured global warming.

    http://joannenova.com.au/globalwarming/photos/surface-stations/DetroitLakes_212142_NorthWest_04-labelled-small.jpg

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  • #

    I think John Kerry is partly right. But, the threat is from global warming (hysteria) and the blind belief in CAGW. Maybe the policies from this cult like belief system and the push to take us back to the dark ages is a bigger threat than that of ISIS. Both movements are pushing us in the same direction.

    10

  • #

    [...] Petition to remove air conditioning from all US State Property: You know it makes sense — air conditioners are as dangerous as suicide bombers. They must be stopped. Next up, [...]

    10

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    RogueElement451

    In my opinion , John Kerry is more dangerous than Isis.

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    • #

      “In my opinion , John Kerry is more dangerous than Isis.”

      Perhaps. ISIS has a goal. Is wallowing around in the mud without goal so dangerous. Kick back with someone you like, then try to think!

      00