Bad governments don’t just “waste millions of dollars” — mismanagement kills.
We live in one of the richest nations on Earth. But waiting times for one type of cancer treatment in Australia have blown out to the point where 2,500 people are dying every year. Why do we have money to waste on fruitless efforts to change the weather?
NEARLY 2500 cancer patients are dying prematurely each year due to poor provision of radiation therapy services, experts have estimated — with many more waiting far longer for the life-saving treatment than clinically recommended.
Graeme Morgan, former director of radiation oncology at Sydney’s Royal North Shore Hospital, said it appeared state governments were attempting to give preference to other treatments such as chemotherapy due to the high upfront costs of installing the linear accelerator machines required to deliver radiation treatments.
Yet he said the result was that nationally, 15,600 Australian cancer patients were missing out on radiation therapy each year, and 2500 dying early — figures he described as “a disgrace”.
Thirty percent of one cancer patient group was missing out on starting radiation therapy within six weeks (ideally, it ought to be within 4 weeks):
“If you don’t treat patients in the recommended time, there’s maybe a 1 per cent drop in their likely survival for every two to three days that they miss out” beyond the recommended limit, Professor Morgan said.
What if we just said “No” to any more solar subsidies, or windfarm waste, and instead spent that money reducing waiting times and increasing lifespans?
Alan Moran of the IPA estimated that the 20% renewable energy scheme loaded a deadweight loss of 1.8 billion a year on the Australian economy [2009 IPA report]. That’s $6 billion spent from 2009 to now that could have been used to buy medical equipment and pay specialists (not to mention the money left over). How many lives did it cost us to make a symbolic statement on about “renewables” which achieved nothing for the environment. Where are our priorities?
Would our lives be improved more by spending $60 billion on a fibre optic network (cost: about $5,000+ per Australian household), or by installing enough linear accelerator machines and MRI’s so that patients have the peace of mind and possibly years of life to boot? I expect there would be some change too, like possibly enough to fund 50 years worth of medical research or so (oi!).
Our annual medical research budget is just $800 million.
So what does a linear accelerator (or an MRI) cost?
The ACT government budgeted $6.7 million for a fourth one in the ACT. In 2009, the Cancer Council estimated they need an additional 33 accelerators by 2015.
Let’s say a Linear Accelerator costs $10 million (we’ll go deluxe), and the whole nation needs 100 of them (more than enough). That’s a mere billion dollars, which we as a nation spent from 2000 -2010 on solar panels that produce less than 0.1% of our electricity.
If the government took less of our earnings in tax and let people drive our medical industry by paying for medical services as they choose, who imagines that industry would have left such a gaping hole, or made such a spectacularly poor choice to get “value” for money?
—
PS: Can someone find a good estimate of the costs of Linear Accelerators and MRI machines? It would be good to start suggesting useful ballpark costed policies to our politicians.
I feel passionate about the potential good we can achieve with medical research and wrote more about it here in The Australian in May 2011. On climate change, the wrong choice kills people either way
UPDATE: Tonyfrom Oz adds some useful info in #35.
“The Government recently sunk more than $1 Billion into two Solar power projects, one in Chinchilla, and the second in Moree. There was also half funding for a Wind project (well, another one of them anyway)”. Tony points out that hospitals couldn’t run on a renewable future, because they need to be operational more than 6 hours a day.
Those, who are pushing the various programs to stop global warming or whatever it is they are wanting to stop, think that there are far too many humans on earth. This is simply one small way they are achieving their ultimate goal: the extinction of human life. Hence, they see it as a GOOD thing that people are dying because of poor allocation of resources. They INTENDED for it to happen!
The people who support this insanity are so blinded by their righteous cause, they cannot see that it is inherently evil. They feel THEY are saving the planet so any means, even one so monstrous, is justified. Reason, reality, and logic won’t cause them to change their position. Shame won’t have an impact. What I suggest is that if their cause is so noble, they should demonstrate their leadership by going first. At least then, they would earn a smattering of respect for acting consistently with their beliefs. Until that glorious day, may they be damned to the hell they are designing for the rest of us. I want no part of it.
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The green scam has killed more people than Mao, Stalin and Hitler combined. Children in poor third world countries starve because food is too expensive. The reason for the artificially high prices is the ethanol scam. Approximately every thirty seconds a child dies unnecessarily from malaria. Why? Because the greens will not allow them to use DDT to eradicate the mosquito. DDT is perfectly safe to use. Can anyone show me a death certificate (outside of one fatality at the factory) with DDT listed as a primary, secondary or tertiary cause of death?
Many people in the third world die from preventable diseases caused by environmental stupidity. How many people die for lack of clean water or proper ventilation? No energy, running water, refrigeration and all the other modern conveniences that the first world takes for granted. We take their oil, gas, coal and other vital commodities while telling them to live the peasant lifestyle. A short, brutish life isn’t very appealing to most. The club of Rome and other neo-malthusians have convinced many that the sky is falling. They say there is a water shortage although 70% of the world is covered by it. They say that we are running out of oil, gas and just about everything else society needs to function. Here is a reality check: the US, Canada and Australia are capable of growing enough crops to feed the entire globe for three years! There are fossil fuels to power the planet for the next 300 years. They want to scare us all so that big brother can save us.
In the US 5% of GDP is wasted appeasing the Gaia worshippers. The real reason this scam is falling apart is that people are starting to pay attention because their standard of living is threatened. Amazingly, the greens want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs that sustain environmental largesse and conservation by first world nations.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. And this scam too shall pass!
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MRI prices have been tricky to find.
Bare minimum is $2.7 million each:
http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/07/02/150851_news.html
The machines are available in at least two field strengths, 1.5T and 3T, and although a 3T is probably more expensive there is no hint as to which type was delivered to Townsville. The Mater hospital in brisbane took delivery of a 3T model in April 2009, so it is possible the Townsville is the same strength.
UQ will install a new deluxe model from Siemens capable of 7T strength for research, but your guess is as good as mine as to how much more that costs than a 3T to put in a hospital. These were seven million euros each when they were new on the market. In Kentucky USA they picked up a 7T strength small-size model for 3.2 million ameripesos, so prices may be dropping.
More than you ever wanted to know is in this report on diagnostic imaging commissioned for the Health department. It also mentions 3 million for a 3T machine.
Once you scratch the surface of bureaucracy you may find much more fat to trim. In my search I found this interesting tidbit from the AMA:
But… that’s at least 8 new MRIs per year just in efficiency without even touching the RET and CPRS.
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Good to see you again Eddie me mate 🙂
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The cost of an MRI is about $3million dollars (then there is the conversion of a hospital room to a radiology suite). However it’s not just the initial capital, but the running costs that make these machines so expensive to have in a hospital.
To have a radiologist interpret a scan can/is often more expensive than the scan itself. I can see why the ACT budgeted $6.7mill for one.
Unfortunately the field of radiology and MRI machines in particular still have a bad name since the Michael Wooldridge MRI subsidy scandal of the late 90s.
There is some info and many links here about the ‘Scan Scam’ as it was known.
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This is an excellent example of why central planning is doomed to fail. Those setting the priorities get out of step with the real need by listening to pressure groups instead of all people.
Only a free market can respond to all people without pressure groups setting the agenda. (Yes, I know there are corporate excesses, but corporations are not allowed to send armed thugs, in state uniforms, to enforce their bad ideas.)
Thanks
JK
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Now this is definitely off topic, and the article came from the Australian, so it is easy meat, but I wanted to share with you how I read this type of article. The words or phrases in curly braces are equivocal words. They express opinion (albeit qualified opinion, but opinion none the less) or they serve to negate the precision of other facts that precede or follow them.
{Nearly} 2500 – How close to 2500 is “nearly”? – The implication is that the actual number is lower than 2500, but by how much?
{dying prematurely} – What would be the life expectancy without the treatment? What are the triage factors? They are not mentioned.
{experts} – in what?
{estimated} – guessed.
{many more} – How many more?
{far longer} – How much longer?
{clinically} – This is a classic, because it implies that a doctor has recommended it, but here we have another doctor who disagrees, so who are we supposed to believe? Perhaps they are both (all) wrong, and nobody has a clue! (I hate this word used in this way – perhaps you can tell?)
{appeared} – “so I could be wrong, it is only an opinion”
{attempting} – ah!, so they are only trying, and haven’t yet succeeded, and perhaps they will fail, so it may not be an issue after all.
{high} – relative term. How high is high?
{dying early} – see my earlier comment on dying prematurely – because it is repeated, does not make it more relevant.
This is an emotive subject, that can touch most of us at some stage in our lives. As such, I would consider that it should be treated with sensitivity and consideration, and not treated in a political way. I would class this extract as being meaningless because it contains no actual facts.
I do not believe that Graeme Morgan said any of these words, at least not in the order they are presented here.
However, I do not mean to detract from the reason why Joanne used this example, the basic thrust of her piece is that we should not be wasting money on trying to change something that is immutable. I agree that.
It was just that the bad journalism was just sitting there, staring at me, and being obnoxious.
REPLY: Rereke, fair point, but as it happens I was talking to a GP yesterday who made an impassioned plea for more MRI’s. He felt torn that he was phoning hospitals in Perth to get a patient urgent scans but was unable to, but that his relatives in the US got it all done in a week. I was struck by what he said. There is a problem with our waiting lists, and there were factual numbers in that article (30% weren’t getting radiotherapy within 6 weeks, when 4 weeks is the max recommended and every few days increased death rates by 1%).
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Jo
The solution can be even easier – make better use of the facilities that are already available! A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with throat cancer and had to wait nearly a month to get into Tomography so they could target the radiation therapy. In the meantime, the cancer was going ballistic.
Why weren’t Tomography units available on weekends and on night shift? Someone with potentially terminal cancer isn’t going to be sleeping too well anyway…
We need more radiotherapists and fewer climate economists.
Cheers,
Speedy
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Lionell nailed it! Climate activists and Greens are not interested in human life and dignity. We are a blot on the landscape.
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The money isn’t being spent by state governments, federal Labot govt has reached agreements to increase health spending.
Solar subsidies for solar PV panels can go, are just middleclass welfare but windfarms are privately owned. Even if you deny climate change you do realise peak oil has passed? You also realise coal powered electricity generators are highly polluting (in the traditional, non-carbon pollution sense?)
You seem to be muddling a lot of concepts together.
REPLY: The 20% renewable energy scheme I referred to is Federal. The Windfarms are subsidized. We’d have more money to stop real pollution if people weren’t paying so much to stop fake “pollution”.
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Does anyone know how much the abc would be worth?
I would reccommend selling it off and boosting the abysmal funding situation as jo describes.
I think people will find in many cases, it’s not so much the lack of equipment that is the issue, but he lack of radiographers and oncologists.
REPLY: ABC Funding = $1` billion pa.
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Lionel brings up what is an article of faith on the right and gets applauded despite the complete lack of any evidence for his argument that lefties want people to die en masse! If you want to censor posts Jo or Ed that would have been a good post to censor and it reflects poorly on you that you left that heap of crock stand.
Just on DDT, the first insecticide. By now mosquitoes would have inherited the genes for DDT tolerance and DDT spraying would achieve very little.
[Speaking of evidence, where is your evidence that mozzies would have inherited the genes for DDT tolerance? We don’t censor just because we don’t agree with a comment. If that’s what you wish, go to skeptical science or real climate. Mod Oggi]
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Thought we already went thru this one, Maxine. The Oil Reserve Fallacy
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Maxine @ 8 and 10
And utterly reliant on taxpayer subsidies to be profitable. Any body who invests in a scheme which is entirely reliant for its profitability on the whim of the incumbent government deserves to lose their money.
I first heard the term “peak oil” in 1970. In the last three years there have more new reserves of oil and gas discovered and/or proven than all the oil and gas we have extracted since we first started using the stuff.
The only stuff that goes up the stack of a modern-day coal-fired power station is CO2, water vapour, and a little heat.
So, which one is the “pollutant”?
And your substantiation for this statement is . . . ?
In places where it IS used, it remains the most effective treatment available.
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@ Baa Humbug
Thanks mate, Always good to see you post, too!
You are joking, right? Start here and then google these clowns:
From http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/yes-they-really-do-want-to-reduce-the-population-22-shocking-population-control-quotes-from-the-global-elite-that-will-make-you-want-to-lose-your-lunch
As regards your comments on DDT, I am amazed at the depth of your ignorance. I will ask again: Show me any empirical data that shows that DDT is dangerous in any way, shape or form to humans or wildlife. BTW, when DDT was used there never was an instance recorded where the mosquitos built up a tolerance for DDT. For you to suggest that DDT wouldn’t work today is a baseless assumption.
You have the right to practice your green religion but don’t think you can force the rest of us to follow suit.
Regarding your statement on peak oil. Peak oil is a mathematical certainty. However, peak oil has not yet occurred. It could happen soon or it may not happen for decades or even centuries. Every twenty years they say we are going to run out of oil and it never happens.
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No, peak oil has not been ‘dealt with.’ Just you don’t want to face it. With India and China having rapidly increasing wealth, industrialisation and private car ownership peak oil has passed. When the global depression is over you will see the price of oil and petrol/diesel head rapidly to $2/L and above here. Pre the GFC the price of petrol here was $1.50/L and there was actually a shift to public transport. Post the GFC $2/L will be rapidly reached and surpassed.
Good thing the NBN will allow a lot more working from home!
We would need to discover another total middle-east sized oil field every few years to prevent peak oil really biting. In addition, most new fields are deep sea fields, much more expensive to explore, drill and operate. The huge field discovered off Brazil’s coast won’t last very long once consumption resumes its long term trend after the GFC/Long depression.
Reality can’t be gainsaid for long and will bite hard those who attempt to gainsay it.
Don’t be children comforted by myths, be adults and face reality!
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Slightly O/T but still about Government mismanagement of the economy, The Australian is quoting a Wikileaks document (they had been quiet for a bit, eh?) about a rift between the RBA and the Feds during the GFC:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/labors-great-financial-crisis-split-with-reserve-bank-of-australia-wikileaks/story-fn59niix-1226125970626
Once again Warwick McKibbin demonstrates why he is the economist’s economist, reading the lay of the GFC properly while Rudd’s star chamber was all a fluster worrying about how to avoid a recession, overinjecting funds into the economy.
McKibbn should run for the Libs to be the successor to Costello… we need steady hands on the wheel.
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Don’t feed the troll people… it is clear that Maxine neither understands nor accepts the alternate energy supplies that we know exist, let alone the ones we aren’t even aware of yet.
Peak Oil is a meaningless concept … ask any economist with half a clue.
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PS> If you guys want a really food laugh… click on Maxine’s link (“her” name) and have a look at the forum it links to. It is an echo chamber of a handful of voices slavishly loving all things PC and PM. It would be funny to see the posting statistics. Any wonder “Maxine” is so one dimensional in her views. Just another Crikey/GetUp sock puppet.
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Maxine at #14
Maxine – no, all that would be required is a few government permits. There are these things called coal-to-liquids (CTL) and gas-to-liquids (GTL). There are quite a few projects on the books of Australian coal, oil and gas companies that could be running in a few years. New Hope for example has a pilot plant that they are operating. It is already highly economic to do CTL. Sasol in RSA is doing very well thank you. The only barriers are politics and green tape.
At a 2XCO2 of 0.7 C means that CTL could not possibly harm the Earth through CO2 emission, although as with all industrial processes it is necessary to have appropriate environmental performance (eg odour – which did for the Stuart Oil Shale project in Queensland).
There is enough coal in the world to keep us all swimming in petroleum for a long long time. Multiple centuries.
I already work from home and have done so for 5 years. My brain works on a different continent to my body. The ADSL2 speeds are quite adequate – so why exactly do I have to pay triple my current plan for the same performance I get now?
Anyway, don’t you look at people’s behaviour? They want mobile, not fixed line. If Mr Conroy was keen to help out voters he’d have backed FTTN with high capacity fast wireless microcells for the last link. That is what will happen – after we waste about 20 $bill unnecessarily linking houses to Telstra’s roadside mushrooms.
I cry with frustration about the vast sums wasted by this government when I’ve spent my career shaving a few dollars off of project costs. It is just disgusting how bad this lot is with our money.
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It is because Government has virtually no checks and balances … they basically use single entry bookkeeping (all spend). There is a tokenistic effort to introduce regulatory gatekeeping units across Government, but they wouldn’t have the first clue where to start on a benefit:cost study, so it is simply another rubber stamp of approval which proves nothing. If Government were a business it would have gone bankrupt decades upon decades ago. It simply does not operate that way.
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PS> When you do have a genuine study done by an independent group like the Productiviy Commission, what happens? Government simply ignores the advice and goes the populist route instead.
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Ten years ago, I was living in Spain and working from home, connecting to the office in London using an ADSL 256 kpbs service. The speed was perfectly adequate for most things, though some file downloads were a bit tedious. In the course of the following years, the speed went up (at the same price!) to 512 kpbs, 1 Mbps and then 2 Mbps, making the “user experience” virtually the same as being in the office. That was plain ADSL, not ADSL2. I really don’t see how NBN proponents can claim that it is necessary to “allow a lot more working from home” – we already have that capability. Even ADSL2 is not the end. There’s still more to be squeezed out of the existing copper infrastructure with technologies like VDSL and VDSL2 … except now the NBN billions will prevent that from happening.
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Maxine @ 10 and 14
“complete lack of any evidence for his argument that lefties want people to die en masse!”
Just for starters Maxine, Google ‘Extreme advocates of population control’. That will get you about 3,710,000 results in 0.18seconds.
A bit of reading may then enable you to start taking your own gratuitous advice offered to others in your post @ 14!
“Reality can’t be gainsaid for long and will bite hard those who attempt to gainsay it. Don’t be children comforted by myths, be adults and face reality!”
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O/T but noticed someone on WUWT caught this Disclosure Statement on the CAGW/mental illness rubbish by Ian Hickie:
29 Aug: The Conversation: Ian Hickie: Act now on climate change to protect Australians’ mental health
Disclosure Statement: Ian Hickie is a director of ‘headspace’ the national youth mental health foundation. He is the executive director of the Brain & Mind Research Institute at the University of Sydney. He is a member of the medical advisory panel to BUPA health insurance. He has participated in a range of national mental health advisory panels to the Australian Government and has conducted educational programs and medical research that has been supported by pharmaceutical companies that produce antidepressant compounds
http://theconversation.edu.au/act-now-on-climate-change-to-protect-australians-mental-health-3099
why can’t the CAGW believers/followers get their heads around the fact BIG BANKS, BIG OIL, BIG PHARMA (in this instance) and other BIGGIES too numerous to mention are behind the CAGW scam?
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Maxine @10
You’re kidding aren’t you “Climate Change”, as you put it, can’t be prevented by us at the current time in our History and it is likely we will never be able to control the climate.
There is enough evidence around to back up what Lionel discusses don’t be so naive to think that some of our leaders agendas are as pure as the driven snow, they are not !
The plan to buy Carbon Credits so we can generate power is and evil plan. It will stop developing countries from reaching their own potential for growth by putting money directly into the pockets of the wealthy or corrupt at the expense of their own country’s poverty riden.
This exercise in history will be realized by future generations as laughable and a waste of resources. We, Humanity can do wonderous things and with continued good will we wil be able to do more. However, the dark ages in our history held back humanity by silencing science and and punishing those that dared voice their opinion outside the box. Are we destined to head the same way. I currently believe we have entered another dark age in our history whereaby sense and reason have flown out the window because of some belief in a falsified fanciful belief we can change the weather.
It is time to start thinking of the consequences of our actions now and in the future. If we directed these funds that Jo talks about to Health services, support for our aging population and a miriad of other things I could name the wealth of this country is assured but if we do not we will be doomed.
As I have stated previously this is a bad time for science. Too many Scientists are working on Climate Change agendas instead of getting out there and developing new energy producing systems or new cures for humanity’s ailments just to name a few. This is the real problem resources being squandered and impoverishing people at the expense of the wealthy.
Joanne’s statement is quite an under statement. There are many things we can do without this “Climate Change” distraction and waste of resources, so commonsense says we should and Jo plainly states this far more eloquently than I ever could.
Sa YES to an election now !!
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Pat @ 23
But,but Pat – it was peer-reviewed by that well known completely at armslength-from-the-government-independent scientist(?)David Karoly!
LOL
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A demonstration of having a cake and eating it too.
The greens argued that the evil DDT poison (and other chloro hydrocarbons) could not be adapted to by life on earth and it therefore had to be banned. In the next breath we have a statement like that above. Who said ignorance was bliss?
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Bulldust #16.
May I profer a minor correction to your opening sentence? ie troll(s). Dunno about “shake, rattle and roll”, with this gang it’s “slink, slither and slide”.
The sooner they are all ignored, the sooner the galahs will fade (screeching and squawking) into oblivion.
No apology for any semblance of mixed metaphors.
Incidentally, it seems the ALP has worn out its welcome even in Victoria.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/federal-woes-hit-the-alp-in-victoria-newspoll/story-e6frgczx-1226125979536
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Peak Oil theory is a perfect example of intellectualised neurosis. Neurotics lack faith.
Petroleum was an unwanted by-product not long ago. We don’t know what will be found through invention, enterprise and faith to power us in the future, but in a free economy it will be found. In a hostage economy, we will fail fully to enjoy and exploit the current technology while, at the same time, we will invest massively in all the wrong alternatives, antiquated, wasteful and inefficient. Did I say “will”?
To understand the Greens and GetUp!,just observe the beliefs, behaviour and reactions of truly neurotic individuals, especially those of high intelligence and advanced education. They manipulate irrationally, often destructively, because faith is absent, no matter how much they lay claim to a spiritual foundation or a scientific outlook.
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Ah Eddy i do enjoy reading your posts, you bring a certain sophistication to the topic (you are also good at keeping the trolls in check). Now dont you go being a stranger again.
Cheers
Crakar24
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Forgot,
Ed in 13 says
I went to the open day at Adelaide Uni with my son and we sat in on the *why not become a petroleum engineer lecture* and the lecturer talking about what a PE does stated “40 years ago they said we will run out of oil in 40 years. Every year they say we have 40 years of oil left and in 2011 they said we have 40 years of oil left”.
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Agreed, Crakar24. While I don’t often use the thumbs-up-down function on this site, I had to give Eddie Aruda a thumbs-up. A big GREEN thumbs-up!
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Off topic…if anyone here is interested in a certain stat dec I would suggest Menzies House.
REPLY: Thanks scaper. Here’s the link and the story. I was leaked a copy too, but without any legal backing decided it was better to let a more resourced blog launch it.Menzies House
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Good points on cost/volume/profit relationships, Baa humbug and speedy. Many metropolitan taxis run for 7,500 hours a year which means the $400,000 price of the license plate, at 8% a year gives an average fixed cost of $4.26/hour of operation. Operating (variable) costs, like fuel, repairs and drivers wages are on top of this. Others do much less with only single shifts etc and at 3,750 hours a year the fixed cost goes to $9,52/hour and the owner is out of pocket.
But in the health system we have equipment worth $3 million and more which would be lucky to get only 1,500 hours use (30/week) which, at the same 8% interest/depreciation rate would average out at $160/hour. If the hours of use drop to 750/year or 15/week the fixed cost element doubles to $320/hour. And given the comparative light weight of much of this equipment, it could be air freighted to just about anywhere in the country, let alone intrastate, for the overhead cost of a single hour of use.
The output from this equipment can be interpreted from anywhere in the country so the equipment hours are not limited by the working hours of a single interpreter at a single location. And the actual operation of the equipment is not a complex constraint that restricts multiple use.
The critical problem is the territorial mindset that demands exclusive use of “their” own equipment long after the cost of the equipment turned that mindset into an indulgence.
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[…] Government mismangement kills 2,500 people a year […]
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While this may ‘seem’ to be my usual ‘hobby horse’, there is a link between them that is worthwhile thinking about.
The Government recently sunk more than $1 Billion into two Solar power projects, one in Chinchilla, and the second in Moree.
There was also half funding for a Wind project (well, another one of them anyway)
Let’s say that funding was sunk into these machines that will provide treatment for Cancer patients.
Now, my impression is that this treatment takes time.
Hence, the number of people needing treatment multiplied by the time taken for that individual treatment and then divide that time into the existing machine time available, if you can see that. That being the case, then it stands to reason that people will be missing out because if they ran those existing machines 24/7, there wouldn’t be enough time to treat all the people requiring treatment.
Now instead of spending the money on what is patently ‘token’ renewable power plants that do nothing, supply nothing and supply power for limited time, let’s instead spend the money on those extra machines, so now we have more of them. Hence more machine time available. They can be run 24/7, and I feel sure that people wanting the treatment to save their lives wouldn’t mind the slight inconvenience of having their treatment out of hours. That way, more people can be ‘serviced’, and we wouldn’t have the problem of people dying while waiting for treatment from too few machines already being worked to the max.
So, all this then becomes academic really, because the Government can’t find the money for this, and after all, they’re in the main, older people who don’t vote for our side of Politics anyway, so we can effectively just ignore them, and their own bean counting committees tell them that for the sake of a few, the outlay is just not economically viable.
However, this same Government can then shell out for those three (just for starters) renewable power plants.
In a way, this further justifies their decision not to get those extra cancer treatment machines.
Why?
The Wind Plant will be supplying its power for barely 6 hours a day, at the current (actual, not theoretical) World average Capacity Factor (CF) of 25%, hence 6 hours a day.
The Solar PV will be supplying its power at the current (again actual, not theoretical) World average of 15% CF, hence just on 4 hours a day.
The Concentrating Solar Plant will be supplying its power (quoted at even their own theoretically high value of 6 hours a day) At a current World CF of around that same 6 hours a day at best.
So now, even if they were to get those cancer treating machines, under this new ‘Clean Energy Future’ those machines will be sitting idle for 18 hours+ a day, again emphasising the ‘stupidity’ of buying them in the first place.
Oh, remember also how I harp on about Base Load Power.
I was wondering how many major hospitals are only open for 6 hours a day.
They need power 24/7/365, not variable boutique and small amounts of power on a limited basis, but constant reliable large amounts of power, ALL THE TIME.
The Government gives ‘lip service’ to the green ‘urgers’ whose votes they need, and chucks Cancer sufferers on the scrapheap because, well, they don’t vote for us anyway, and after all, they’re dying anyway, sooner or later.
See how even something ‘perceived’ as being perhaps a boutique hobby horse like Cancer treatment machines is inexorably linked to the supply of electrical power.
Joanne, I applaud you for mentioning this story, because when the Trolls come in and try to divert the Thread to their usual political subject changing, we can see them for exactly what they are.
Tony.
REPLY: Excellent comment Tony. I will add a note in the post.–JN
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I think I’d rather leave it to my household to decide how to spend my $5000. That includes whether or not to donate to cancer research (which many of us have done, voluntarily).
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Maxine says: Lionel brings up what is an article of faith….
When policies are advocated, worked for, rioted for, demanded, AND voted for, the actual consequences of the policies is what is desired. Especially if the consequences are invariably achieved whenever and where ever those polices are implemented. It is irrelevant what the advocates say they want. It is immaterial what they claim their so called good intentions are. What is relevant and material is that they keep getting the same results and they don’t change their demands. The entirety of the 20th century is a bloody testament to this fact.
It is the nature of man that he USES and ADAPTS his environment to his own ends and not the other way around. If he cannot do that, he cannot live as man. If he cannot live as man, he cannot live. This is because he must live according to what he is. He can’t live according to what he can’t be. If he tries, he will die. THAT is the end of the road for the programs you, Maxine, are personally advocating. Why not have the courage of your convictions, be a leader for your cause, and go first. Why wait for the circumstances to be set up that will give you your earnest wish?
Ultimately, reality is real. Things are what they are. To exist is to have an identity. To fail to act in accordance with that identity and in accordance with the nature of reality results in death for a living being. That is what YOU are asking for with every breath you take. Your words to the contrary are empty of meaning.
You are making the same kind of demand that the anti-mind, anti-life, anti human mentalities (witch doctors, priests, ecologists, politicians, and fellow travelers) have made since the first engineer discovered how to make a stone ax and to use fire to cook his food. We are to give up what we hold dearly as a high value for a non-value. The giving up is not enough until we have given up our lives. This is the proof they (YOU) want the death they (YOU) cause.
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I posted this comment just after Eddy’s comment #2 but for some reason the blog ate it up last night and then wouldn’t let me post it because it said I had “posted that already”. I’ll try again now…
—–8<———–8<———–8<———–8<——
MRI machine prices have been tricky to find.
Bare minimum is $2.7 million each:
http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2010/07/02/150851_news.html
The machines are available in at least two field strengths, 1.5T and 3T, and although a 3T is probably more expensive there is no hint as to which type was delivered to Townsville. The Mater hospital in brisbane took delivery of a 3T model in April 2009, so it is possible the Townsville is the same strength.
UQ will install a new deluxe model from Siemens capable of 7T strength for research, but your guess is as good as mine as to how much more that costs than a 3T to put in a hospital. These were seven million euros each when they were new on the market. In Kentucky USA they picked up a 7T strength small-size model for 3.2 million ameripesos, so prices may be dropping.
More economic detail than you ever wanted to know is in this report on diagnostic imaging commissioned for the Health department. It also mentions 3 million for a 3T MRI but I have been unable to find any operational costs mentioned.
Once you scratch the surface of bureaucracy you may find much more fat to trim. In my search I found this interesting tidbit from the AMA:
But… that’s at least 8 new MRIs per year just in efficiency gains without even touching the RET and CPRS. Imagine how much more healthy carbon-based life we could gain by dumping the toxic carbon tax.
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Speedy in #7, the lack of specialists has as much to do with the medical colleges (that is professional bodies not universities) restricting access to accreditation as it does to do with lack of people actually capable of doing the job. If there were more of them they’d be cheaper per hour, get paid less, and have less ability to work short hours and play a lot of golf. Unfortunately the right never target this kind of union. From my POV it is a cordinated system of ensuring that there are so few “qualified” that they can charge whatever they want and set their own work hours free of the pressure of competition. We most likely, as you say, have less of an issue with lack of machines.
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[…] Government mismanagement kills 2,500 people a year […]
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sadly, but not surprisingly, Climate Institute/Ian Hickie’s absurd report on CAGW causing Mental Illness is now being reported, WITHOUT A HINT OF RIDICULE, by the UK Independent, AFP, Oman Daily News, Bangkok Post, plus in Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia, Assam Tribune, Sports Radio ESPN, Fox News, Radio Netherlands, and more.
here’s Radio Australia’s SERIOUS interview with Hickie:
(AUDIO)Radio Australia: Mental illness linked to climate change: report
HICKIE: In a lot of acute situations and crises, communities often pull together and there may be a good deal of recovery. But where a community is really devastated – and we’ve seen examples in Australia over the last decade, particularly the prolonged drought in Australia and its effect on rural communities and rural families, more recently the bushfires, the Queensland cyclones and floods.
What we’ve really seen is communities really being wiped out, not coming together again in a cohesive way and really major mental health issues for those people living in those communities or those people who never return to those communities…
HICKIE: Everyone talks about the future of our children, what is likely to happen over the next 20 to 50 years. Some of us won’t be around to see that but our children will and a constant discussion of these issues leads to the really serious issue for children, ‘Are we responding?’
RYAN: And the report has likened this inaction to the inaction seen during the Cold War.
HICKIE: Well, there are historical analogies of long periods where kids have had to live with anxiety of an unresolved issue – as distinct from many of us who are fortunate to live through periods without that anxiety, without that same degree of change.
And the big issue for children now is climate change. Is the world going to change in a fundamentally hostile way?
RYAN: And then you have Indigenous communities which are already dislocated. Does climate change compound those inequalities?
HICKIE: Climate change, of course, is likely to play out most severely for our rural and regional communities. And that would include, of course, many of the Indigenous communities in rural and remote areas. So they are likely to be even more severely impacted because of the lack of social resources, and already the strong pressures on community cohesion in many of those communities.
RYAN: So while there is the obvious economic cost of rebuilding, there is a much greater cost to the social fabric and human health. Is this all being lost in the political debate over climate change and things like putting a price on carbon?
HICKIE: I think this is an issue where we, the Australian community need to be much more actively engaged in these issues.
And I think the issue here is, if we count the cost of inaction, we have to count very severely and very significantly, the mental health cost, the community cohesion cost and who will be most hurt…
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/connectasia/stories/201108/s3304900.htm
don’t know who wrote the following, but it’s the only MSM piece to question the report:
31 Aug: Australian: Wallowing in gloom and doom
IF the doleful scaremongers at the Climate Change Institute want to persuade Australians about the need to cut carbon emissions, they’ll have to do better than their report “A Climate of Suffering: The real costs of living with inaction on climate change”.
The picture it paints of a nation wracked by fear, despair, bereavement, depression, self-harm, suicide, domestic violence, family dissolution, debilitating mental illness, children anticipating the end of the world and a billion climate refugees by 2050 is enough to make readers wonder if it’s worth getting out of bed.
Effective climate change debate and action depends on reliable science and rational decision-making, not hyperbole. Mental illness is too serious and complex a health problem to be used to whip up anxiety over climate change and promote expensive solar roof panels, the only positive photograph in the report.
As the report admits, disasters such as Cyclone Yasi and the summer floods showed the resilience of Australians and how well communities pull together in such times. With or without climate change, that has been the case on this torrid continent through drought, fires, floods and cyclones for generations. But taken seriously, the neurotic mindset this report fuels would erode such national spirit and burden more people with depression.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/wallowing-in-gloom-and-doom/story-e6frg71x-1226125860652
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As to DDT and resistance to it in mozzies(? I like that). In the U.S. it is the 150th anniversary of our Civil War. I am working on a project that has me reading many first person accounts of what went on in that time. Of the 660K who died about 2/3s died of disease. Typhus was a killer, and typhoid may have been the worst. But the ague also did its part, malaria by another name. It seems to have been widespread both in the field and in cities (both Lincoln’s secretaries had it).
In the U.S. malaria was eradicated with DDT, oh and DDT killed off yellow fever as well, a disease so virulent, killed so many, that Memphis Tennessee lost its status as a corporation for a time. In Elmwood Cemetery in Memphis there are large areas of unmarked mass graves. People died so fast there was no one left to identify the bodies.
I don’t believe there was ever a problem with DDT tolerance in mozzies during the time it was used and malaria and yellow fever have not, touch wood, come back. Maybe the EPA could consider an endangered species designation. Hell, viruses are people too.
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All I can say is read this piece:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_how_gillard_tried_to_kill_a_story/
It explains why Bolt and 2UE were silenced a couple days ago. Where’s Australian free speech anymore?
Warning: This story will make you angry.
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It didn’t make me angry. I’ll admit I did get a bit jaded when I realised Bolt was not resigning.
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OT – the federal government’s Malaysian people swap deal has been ruled unlawful by the High Court. Another Gillard blunder.
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“If the government took less of our earnings in tax and let people drive our medical industry by paying for medical services as they choose, who imagines that industry would have left such a gaping hole, or made such a spectacularly poor choice to get “value” for money?”
The government might even let people decide for themselves just what treatments they want to undergo, without asking permission from the government or big pharma – like this – which must, at least, make us wonder about the connections between a big, fat government and big. fat companies.
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Mattb @ 40:
Sounds like quite the academic conspiracy there. Have you sought help in the matter?
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MattB:#44
August 31st, 2011 at 2:31 pm edit
Jaded? here is a tip you may not have thought of Matt. DON’T READ BOLTS BLOG and DON’T WATCH HIS SHOW.
Or are you concerned that the rest of us who do read and watch him are being unduly influenced by his views i.e. we can’t think for ourselves?
Go ahead, I’d like an answer as to why you’d be jaded by someone you obviously don’t read or watch.
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Speaking of misuse of Government funds… is it just me or do you guys find the indoctrination of the youth somewhat disturbing in an Orwellian way:
http://www.climatechange.gov.au/what-you-can-do/teachers-and-students.aspx
Check out the primary and secondary “teaching aids.”
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Marty the spotty tail Quoll, WTF happened to the Poley Bear?
I notice that my children do not have to endure this Nazi style brown shirt brain washing program, thank God for private Catholic schools. The best investment i have ever made.
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But we have to reduce carbon pollution and it would be great to close down the highly polluting (in all senses) Playford B and Hazelwood power stations.
As a householder I pay rates (far too much in rates) to have my garbage removed. coal burnign power stations just discharge their waste into the atmosphere. That causes all sorts of problems besides AGW, think ocean acidification for example, shitting in our own nest and endangering our marine food supplies.
The ETS will make these generators pay to get their rubbish removed and when they do that other power sources become economic. This is high school science stuff! Backstairs Passage (between Kangaroo Isl and the mainland has wind nearly every day, wind from the Antarctic. With a carbon price in place I hope that a huge windfarm is built there.
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Bulldust-what Bolt writes is Bulldust, and he knows it is bulldust. The guy has actually said he knows AGW is happening, but is happy to take the money and write crap and so keep soem Useful Idiots happy. The corruption of science. . .who benefits by it?
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Ellen–you pay less tax now then when Howard was still PM. You can always take out private insurance and choose whatever quack or nostrum you like.
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Bernal–thank god at least one person can argue. If you don’t think populations of mozzies can become immune to DDT I guess you don’t believe bacteria can become tolerant to (way too widely prescribed for a long time) antibiotics and so ‘superbugs’ are a myth spread by doctors?
Yes I am sure DDT made great inroads into mozzie populations–but mozzie populations do become immune to whatever systemic poison you introduce.
Typhoid etc were common–when lazy buggers dug wells too close to privvies what do you expect?
And you have read, I assume, that one aspect of AGW is causing mozzie related problems in that mozzies that carry some diseases are now prevalent and causing problems in areas they never used to be in? that would be a nice little appendix to your book.
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And Bulldust, when you publish defamatory garbage the person so defamed can make things hot for you. There is no right to defame people in free speech!
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Matt B mentions the lack of suitably qualified people to run these cancer treatment machines, and note how there’s always an excuse.
I know it’s a trite statement to say, ‘Back in my day’, but sometimes it’s worth looking at things with the perspective of hindsight.
In the late 60’s, a University degrees meant something, and students who ‘had it’ at High School, strove for that 6 A’s in Senior (grade 12) or around that level of achievement, something that would qualify them to go to Uni to get a degree.
The fall back without those 6 A’s was Teachers College.
In the bush it was Ag College, and oddly, even those who did excel, sometimes even chose Ag College.
Nowadays, you can get a Degree in anything, and literally, hence people have University Degrees that qualify them for maybe a job in the Public Service.
Me, well, I’m afraid I didn’t ‘have’ it at High School, and now I’ll admit that was in all reality my own fault for not trying hard enough, you know, there’s always more important things to do than school work.
So I left at grade 10 with a slightly above average score, enough to qualify me to join the Air Force and get an apprenticeship in the electrical trade.
That earlier trade training for me was way way more intensive than it is now, and in fact enough these days to almost make it for a full Electrical Engineering degree. However, all it gave me was that trade certificate. 25 years later, that excessive trade training was recognised with an Associate Diploma in Electrical Engineering, which in reality is nothing.
I’m too old now to go for a full degree, and what’s the point at my age.
However, with respect to University Degrees these days, and not many people doing the ‘hard’ degrees, I’m reminded of an old joke I picked up from friends I now have in the U.S.
One lives in Florida and graduated from UF in Gainesville, and the other graduated from UA (Bama) in Alabama.
The good natured banter always stems from the two football teams, the Gators (UF) and The Crimson Tide (UA) and some of you may not be aware that College football in the U.S. is bigger than AFL or NRL is here in Oz.
That good natured humour inspired the joke I’m finally getting to.
My friend from UF commented disparagingly as to what was the statement most used by degree graduates from UA.
“Would you like fries with that.”
It’s a good joke, but when you think of it these days, some Degrees really are meaningless, and what we really need is for people to be getting degrees that can be put to some real use where they are needed.
That applies here, and is probably why more of these machines aren’t being purchased, because there’s no one to run them, but training is a thing that is big these days.
Why not train people to use them. Part of that allocation for funding for the machines could include that training of people to run them, just run them correctly and efficiently.
I understand it’s an easy thing to say, but with literally billions being spent these days to train people for something that is basically nothing, this is something that would be of value in the long term.
Too many people have qualifications longer than your arm, but no work, hence they get shuffled off to do more training for more qualifications.
Tony.
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Evidence for populations of mozzies aquiring immunity to a particular systemic poison?
Genetics and natural selection. Evolution. See my post 56 above describing how bacteria through overuse of antibiotics have aquired immunity to many antibiotics.
The way it works in any population there is a wide variation in genotypes. The genotype that confers immunity to DDT would not have much value–until humans started spraying DDT all over the place but then of course the few mozzies that do have it are the only ones to survive the spraying and when they breed the immunity gene is spread widely in the population and so subsequent spraying with DDT becomes less and less effective.
Spraying DDT wildly about the place has other consequences: fish, frogs might eat dead or dying mozzies and so build up a store of DDT in their body fat, DDT being fat soluble. If those fish or frogs (or the bigger fish, snakes etc that eat these DDT carrying fish and frogs) fall on lean times, like the river they are in freezes on the surface in winter and the fish have to live on their stores of fat they will die during the winter and the spring melt will be marked by huge die off of fish etc. Then the fish and frogs that otherwise would be eating mozzies are not there, they are dead.
This stuff has been known since the 60s when I studied Zoo III at Adelaide Uni.
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Maxine at Comment 53
Oh, Max, Max Max, you’ve wandered in late here without checking, haven’t you.
Tell me, mate, how soon do you want Hazelwood closed?
Tell me, how much will it cost to buy out their contract?
Tell me, once achieved, what will replace the power provided from Hazelwood?
Tell me, will that ‘dream’ for a wind plant achieve that?
Tell me, how much power will that Wind Plant provide?
Tell me, how huge do you want this Wind Plant?
Tell me, how much will it cost?
Tell me, who will pay for it?
You green dreamers have no idea at all, do you?
Tony.
P.S. (Tony thinks to self. There that should keep him busy enough for a while)
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To get back on topic, the Rudd/Gillard govts have been spending hugely on medical training including radiologists (neighbor’s son qualified a couple years ago.) If you really want to lay blame for a real shortage of MRI treatments I suggest looking at the Howard/Costello period. Those two turkey ripped money out of everywhere to show a ‘surplus’ which then got spent on tax cuts and pok barreling. Training specialists takes time.
And I would not trust anything the national shit sheet publishes!
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P.S. (Tony thinks to self. There that should keep him busy enough for a while)
Not a hope in hell Tony, the greens motto is Ignore, deflect and push on.
By the way it is a motto that is working for them as the latest Victorian poll shows the libs way out in front with labor sliding down 20% with th greens up 4% to 15, come the next fed election the libs will win in a land slide with the greens a distant 2nd and labor leading the minor parties.
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ROFLMAO… just revisted Maxine’s linked site:
Total posts on site: 39079
Total posts by HBS Guy: 21810 (55.8%)
I think I found the guy on the net who has the last word on everything.
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Speedy @ 8 and MattB @ 41
Using existing infrastructure more efficiently doesn’t reward big businesses like Seimens and the like with multimillion dollar technology. It would be far cheaper and better to reward those radiologists and radiographers willing to work on weekends and at unfriendly hours more than what they do to encourage greater number of viable scanning time. Radiographers are relatively poorly paid for the qualifications required, but MattB illustrates with his flippant attitude exactly why governments can’t work it out. They are naturally unwilling to pay people. They would much rather pay huge wads of cash for shiny new equipment because deep down they resent people who took the time and effort to gain qualifications that they themselves would never be able to achieve. Professional jealousy and parochialism have a lot to answer for.
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Maxine at #53 etc
Why? If you looked at the link I gave which is a peer reviewed scientific study showing CO2 climate sensitivity is 0.7 C/doubling then you’ll understand that CO2 is only very mildly warming. Effectively harmless. You would have to increase it by 8 times to go above IPCC’s decidedly undangerous 2 C threshold. I can probably dig up half a dozen peer reviewed references like that one, which is further supported rather strongly by the recent CERN results.
Trees do quite well next to coal fired power stations. What have you got against the poor trees you are disadvantaging?
Seriously Maxine, you should read some science. Or if you wish to debate or argue then you should quote sources, preferably peer reviewed science papers, and accept a discussion of their merits. I am of course willing to discuss Lindzen & Choi 2011 which I linked to.
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Maxine,
you mention in comment 53:
Bear with me for a minute, and I’ll attempt to make it easy for you to understand.
40% of those Carbon (Carbon Dioxide Max, CO2) emissions come from electrical power generation, and here in Oz, 93% of all electrical power consumption comes from sources that emit CO2.
Of the Top 20 CO2 emitters, (just the top 20, because that’s where the bulk of the money comes from) 14 of them are large scale power plants, including the Top 4.
The Government gets all its money from those emitters, and note here I didn’t say that those ‘polluters’ will be paying.
This tax on those power generation Companies will be passed directly down to the providers with an increase to the wholesale cost of electricity, so it now becomes neutral for them. Incoming = Outgoing.
The providers then pass the cost directly down to consumers in the form to an increase in the retail cost of electricity.
38% of that power is consumed in the residential sector, and householders will pay with an increase in electricity accounts.
37% of all power is consumed in the Commerce sector, and 24% is consumed in the Industrial sector, but only the householder is being compensated, so those increased costs in those other 2 sectors will again be passed down directly to consumers, me and you both.
So effectively, the power plant operator is just the middle man for this money go round.
The people pay, the Government collects, and gives it back to some of the people, oh, minus their cut that is, and that’s a pretty substantial cut too.
So, really, there’s no need for the power plant operator to cut its emissions, because there’s no incentive to do so, as it’s basically revenue neutral for them.
The way PM Gillard refers to it as making those ‘derdy polluders’ pay is in fact quite disingenuous, as it’s the people who are paying.
And other sources for power generation becoming more economic.
Please.
Boutique amounts of power at horrendous cost, and only available on a limited time basis.
You really haven’t done your homework now have you.
Or did a dog get it?
Tony
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Tony all that crap you spout is all allowed for in the compensation.
Yes, so far renewable energy has been largely boutique.
The carbon price will make alternative, renewable energy more competitive. Exactly how it is to be done is left to the market.
Personally, I would love to see a couple whacking great Gen 3/4 nuclear generators, incl one at Pt Augusta.
Households can consider ways to reduce their energy consumption. I would say much cheaper solar PV cells/panels will be coming along. The carbon price will help there too.
We cannot sit back and allow the concentration of GHGs to continue and are very close to the 400ppm mark.
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Bruce–we are not talking about plants. We are taking about AGW and ocean acidification. There are also tipping points.
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http://calderup.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/cern-experiment-confirms-cosmic-ray-action/
What a heap of crap! Hint: real scientists talk science, they don’t talk of “warmists” and crap like that.
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Maxwell (by the way thats a great name seriously) in 67,
I have to jump in here for a moment, you have to see this debate between you and Tony from the 3rd person. We have Tony here making a logical statement as to how the top emitters will simply pass on the costs and which ever way it goes it all goes down to us. So we pay the tax not the emitters.
He also shows all how the solar/wind alternative is not a viable option.
Then in 67 you post a reply.
Firstly i dont see how “all that crap” is in the compensation but if i am wrong please show me the numbers you have to support what you say, from what i have seen the numbers dont add up.
You then claim the ets will make this energy more competitive, which maybe so but only by applying an artificial price rise.
You then say
“Households can consider ways to reduce their energy consumption”
How exactly? Not cook food in oven? Not watch TV, Not blog at Jo’s? How Maxwell?
“I would say much cheaper solar PV cells/panels will be coming along”
When Maxwell 2013, 2213?
You see the point i am making, Tony makes a logical argument about this issue but your response is fuzzy…..whats the word….non conceptual…intangible…its made up of mights and maybes you need to be more detailed in your response.
Just trying to help.
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Maxine
“Ocean acidification” is a term reserved for scientific illiterates. Just what is the pH of sea water again? Real science, my foot.
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Why can’t people be innovative? I generate my own electricity by steam, dug a fire pit in the backyard and installed a boiler to drive the turbine. I used to use a sustainable fuel, black coal but the stuff got too expensive so I switched to burning car tyres.
One day the fire went out so I mixed up a batch of napalm and went a bit heavy on the benzene and blew the boiler into orbit and left a crater in the back yard so I’ve moved up to mining truck tyres as fuel and set up a very, very large boiler and a turbine as big as a double garage that powers half the street.
It rarely goes out these days but I’ve learnt my napalm lesson. Now I only use the purest whale oil imported from Japan to get those tyres flaming.
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Post 72,
In other news Bob Brown whilst surfing the internet suddenly went pale, grabbed his heart and died with one leg in the air.
LMBFAO ::
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Maxine@ 69
You mean to tell me that all you got from the article about the CLOUD experiment at CERN was that in the commentary he used the term “warmist” in the commentary about the politics of the paper, not the paper itself mind you! You have such an inquiring mind. A brick would have more intellectual curiosity. I would heartily recommend inpatient cult deprogramming at your earliest convenience.
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scraper at comment72,
classic!
Tony.
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Winston,
The problem is Maxwell needed to make a statement, a statement which would enable him to maintain his faith so he seized on the word “warmist”. This should be a lesson to all that when you engage in debate with someone of any faith you need to be vigilant with your wording. I suspect if the word warmist was not used Maxwell would have commented on the size and or quality of the paper it was printed on or perhaps the font and size of the letter head used….we shall never know.
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Fear not all. The ABC is spending our money wisely.
http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/chaser-boys-return-with-new-show-20110831-1jkuq.html
Will be good to see a bit of their guerrilla style scrutiny of some of the low-lives in our media. 🙂
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Ok everyone!!! Get off Maxine’s back!!! She (he??, it??) can’t help it if she is both morally superior to us AS WELL AS intellectually superior. She (he??, it??) must find it profoundly annoying that we don’t just acquiesce to her (his, it’s) obvious superiority.
Of course we just think she (he, it) is completely ignorant and that she (he, it) worships at the altar of Al Gore.
But then we’re just stupid, ignorant plebs that need to dragged kicking and screaming to her (his, it’s) point of view.
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Maxine at #68
Why not talk about plants? They are doing pretty well out of the increased pCO2.
Ah, ocean acidification. You may like this peer reviewed paper, which has been cited by a CAGW supporter to me about the effect of increased pCO2 on calcification of mollusc shells.
You will note from this study that the larvae survival rates for M. mercinaria and A. irradians was about 5% even under the worst conditions tested: pCO2 of 1500 ppm and 36 days. Zoology! I’m making it easy for you by tackling a field you have studied, and which is away from my field.
Now, I read your comments about adaptation of Anopheles to DDT, leaving aside the tens of millions of lives that would have been saved using DDT until it did become resistant, so you will see that molluscs will likewise adapt to higher pCO2’s. They’ve got quite an incentive to do so after all, and their great to the nth grandparents in the Mezoic (ie age of the dinosaurs) when the pCO2 was at about 1500 ppm for 200 million years. Plenty of molluscs seemed to live quite happily in those highly acidic oceans eh?
Of course Talmage and Gobler have no incentive to explore the adaption cuss-word, that would be unhelpful to their cause. However to their credit they do raise adaptation briefly, then immediately reject it. So, all bases covered.
I am very happy to discuss ocean acidification, or climate sensitivity if you would like to do so. You could indeed provide some science yourself to support your rather sweeping statements.
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Have a read about what shocking EVIL government bureaucrats inflicted on one poor little girl !!
http://www.sarahs-last-wish.com/
THIS MUST NEVER EVER BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN AGAIN !!
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Bruce, I hope you’re not holding your breath waiting for “good old Max” to actually cite the science. Max wouldn’t know science if it jumped up and smacked him in the face!!
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Maxine at #69
Sorry missed you comment, it would be helpful if you address them. Nigel Calder is not a scientist, he is the previous editor of New Scientist magazine, an office he held for some years.
I try to avoid use of the word you mentioned, as I too like to “talk science”. I am qualified to do so by your standards. I have yet to see any science that you have cited, which makes it kinda hard to talk about it.
And sorry I didn’t directly link to the CERN paper, it is behind a paywall. But I’d be very pleased to discuss the content, and the hypothesis that it is testing. What exactly don’t you like about it?
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Debunking the Myth of Peak Oil – Why the Age of Cheap Oil is Far From Over
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Debunking-the-Myth-of-Peak-Oil-Why-the-Age-of-Cheap-Oil-is-Far-From-Over-Part-1.html
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OT but worth a read !!
Mysterious AWU accounts….
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/mysterious_accounts/
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Overseasinsider at #81
Humour me. There are many readers of Jo’s blog. They, I am sure, note well when sceptics are keen to discuss the science and when CAGW supporters always avoid it. I like to provide links as when I was searching out climate science I liked to click links to see what was said there.
I would be happy to discuss some science with Maxine, but if she refuses to discuss or defend the scientific basis for her statements, or continully changes the subject, then watchers will see that. They too are voters.
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It all makes me want to leave Australia and go somewhere else.
Too many oiks.
Too many political lightweights.
Too little analysis.
Too little thinking.
Too much good life.
Too much selfishness.
I’m ashamed to be an Australian.
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Post 66:
This analysis flawed because it ignores the fact electricity generators ultimately compete against each other to sell the most electricity into the grid.
If generator A decides to just pass on electricity costs, including the cost of more expensive future permits, but generator B figures out ways to become more efficient, then generator B will sell more electricity and make more profit than generator A.
It is also very funny on a forum that features individuals that call the Government “socialist”, that it is the one proposing a market mechanism to reduce emissions.
The Opposition, which agrees with the government on the 5% cut by 2020, is proposing a system based on taxing and spending, which could cost as much as $11 billion a year, every year from 2015 to 2020. You can download an analysis of the Opposition policy based on best and worst case abatement costs (based on existing schemes), here: https://www.tai.org.au/file.php?file=/media_releases/PB%2029%20The%20real%20cost%20of%20direct%20action.pdf
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O/T… The ALPs next election slogan:
Kevin ’11
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A market “managed” by government or the aristocrats of our age -merchant bankers trading something of no hard value is as far away from capitalism as you could possibly get.
And yes, I use the term managed loosely in light of the current rabble of union props.
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Jo,
In Canada, we have more people using the food bank than ever.
Yet massively subsidizing many energy schemes like the rest of the world of wind turbines and solar and getting further in debt.
They tried slipping in a fast eco-tax scheme which failed as many products were costing more than what they were worth in taxes. But it still cost us millions to the companies that were being paid to run the program.
We have a highway that has a 99 year lease agreement that can charge anything they want and used to be tied to renewal of our license plates. Subsequent governments looked into trying to break this but found it to be carved in stone and have to be policed and maintained by the tax payers. I believe the politician became a consultant to the company after getting out of office.
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I happen to be highly qualified to speak on the corrupt and ruinous nature of an ETS. You see, I was alive in 2008 with all my senses. Those who were unborn, still in infancy or who were unconscious at the time have every excuse for being optimistic.
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Most markets are set up by the government.
Any market that allows selling goods and services for money is technically regulated by the government because the government determines what counts as legal tender, and the RBA sets interest rates, which is effectively the price on credit.
The only way you could get government out of all markets is if everyone just bartered for goods and services. But markets work more effectively when people can trade things for money.
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Adam,
I’m not biting. You know your clutching at straws there.
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I Love CO2: Here comes the “ocean acidification” scam, watch out!
http://ilovecarbondioxide.com/2009/04/here-comes-ocean-acidification-scam.html
The Cancun Shuffle: Carbon Emissions and Ocean Acidification
http://ourmaninsichuan.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/the-cancun-shuffle-carbon-emissions-and-ocean-acidification/
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O/T – Madjak (or anyone really), Would it be accurate to say that most forum members here are libertarian? Ignoring the ‘environment’ subtext, what do people think should be done (if anything) about the Horn of Africa situation?
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Scader @ 72
You’re obviously mixing your napalm wrong mate. Soap is so much yesterday.
Pour a bottle of kerosene into a metal bucket, then break up pieces of styrofoam packing into it, stirring occasionally until it all dissolves into a honey consistency. Store in glass jars with screw top lids in the fridge – will last indefinitely.
Use as a paste applied with a stick for minor applications, or throw a whole jar into an existing small fire for more spectacular results. Guaranteed to stick to, set fire to, and burn anything flammable. Virtually impossible to extinguish once fully alight without professional firefighting equipment.
Keep out of the reach of children – and greenies.
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Memoryvault: I remember kids playing with that back in high school, along with bungers and the aerosol/lighter combo.
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Maxine:at 59
You have to realise that science has evolved since 1960 odd, until IPCC came along – but back to DDT – have you studied malaria in Africa, PNG or maybe even Sri Lanka? The biggest killer of children in Africa is still Malaria – now science has realised the importance of change – and this means variations of insecticide usage from contact to systemic – with now up to four groups being used – pyrethroids, organophosphates, DDT and carbamates. The exposure time span and resistance allowability are the main factors and if DDT is taken out of the equation then the resistance chances increase some 40% – this has drastic consequences on morality rates in especially children.
The genotypes you mentioned that have DDT imunity must have been identified in new research – have you got links to this please? – even Mr Gates is now for DDT inclusion to the list of chemicals in the fight for malaria control.
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Tristan @ 97
You must be a hell of a lot younger than me. Styrofoam – at least as a cheap, throw-away packing material – didn’t exist when I was a kid.
Aerosol/lighter combinations are expensive. Wrap a couple of sparklers around a CO2 capsule for recharging soda water fountains and you can disintegrate the letter-box of the most obnoxious neighbour.
Also good in the middle of a paper bag full of doggy-doo left burning on a doorstep.
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Adam Smith @ 87
So this is understanding economics to you???????
You fail to understand that you consume nearly ALL of both plants A and B. So A will go on just like before (they’ll adjust prices to function profitably) and B will set their price to match A (make more money). The consumer pays more. JUST LIKE WE’VE BEEN SAYING!
There isn’t “competition” like you imagine because there is demand for ALL of the product from both plants.
Your tax WILL pass through to the consumers and YOU’LL pay more for everything.
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I’m barely out of the womb.
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*I’m guessing you meant A.
If generators have to pay to put carbon in the air, they may or may not change their practices (based on the individual generator’s CBA). Whichever the case, they’ll keep the same profit margin, which as we all know, will result in more expensive electricity. As the price of electricity rises, usage goes down, although I suspect electricity usage is rather ‘sticky’. So your bill will be higher and you’ll get the difference (more or less) back from the gov’t. Pretty mild stuff for the most part.
The interesting bit will be whether vulnerable industries are over or under compensated. I suspect over, because job losses that could be feasibly traced to the CT would be politically disastrous.
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Adam Smith @ 92:
Currency was invented by governments to permit easy taxation. Banks came soon after. Banking and Government collusion evolved simultaneously. Where is this good for the “little guy”?
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Tristan @ 101
Then stick with me kid. Future lessons to include:
Sulphate of Ammonia versus Nitropil – when size really DOES matter, and
The Big Bang Theory as a function of Coca Cola cans, and
Pool chlorine – the ultimate instantaneous cleaning product (makes stains – and everything else – just disappear).
Stay tuned.
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Tristan:
Yes thank you, typing too fast
Perhaps a moderator could fix that?
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These million dollar machines that detect cancer , Have they not been around 20 years or so.
They train dogs to sniff out Cancer , Why the need for a machine , Seems to me Its already covered.
The US FDA has taken a Doctor to task over cancer treatment since the 90s , The Doctor has a success rate
in Cancer treatment of 15% far and above of Western Medicine , Radiation and Chemotherapy ,
This is a Science blog , What does Radiation and Chemotherapy do to the human body.
The funding from American charity`s are not available to this Doctor , Instead they are channelled into mainstream
Pharmaceutical Corporations .
In Italy A Doctor made a breakthrough in Cancer treatment ,He was Disbarred , He carried on however and the
Cancer treatments his Clinic uses work.
Engage the science fellow bloggers, Think about it Radiation to cure cancer ,Is that not what kills People.
Chemotherapy , Do the Research , Chemical slow Death ,
Engage the Science , Look up these Doctors , See how main stream media is lying .
I have not seen Eddy`s comments before , He is right on the pulse .
Thankyou Jo
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Memoryvault: How come you know so much about making things explode, mining or scouts?
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Tristan @ 107
Well, it’s like this:
Back in 1971 I got conscripted.
Somewhere, somehow, somebody decided I was “officer material” and I got shipped off to Scheyville Officer Training School.
I did particularly well at everything except actually “killing people” as in personally, so it was decided I was obviously cut out to train others in how to kill people.
Our government of the day subsequently invested a lot of money in teaching me me how to blow up people – amongst other things – so I could teach others – which I did.
Which is one of the reasons there are so many well-informed terrorists today.
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On topic. Incompetent government.
I would argue that incompetent govt in France, USA, Russia(autocracy), Germany, UK (who can forget Chamberlain) caused two world wars and the deaths of over 100 million (WW1 40-60, WW2 40+).
What is interesting to note is that the average Russian did not think Stalin was too bad after a long dose of Czars and the average German did not think Hitler was too bad after a long dose of incompetence and international interference after WW1. The point being that incompetent govt breeds acceptance of the worst of government. The example being that roughly 75% of the Australian population (if you believe the surveys) think that anything would be better than the current government.
When you have a totally imcompetent government, to get elected you just have to stand against them. The opposition is under no pressure to promise medical equipment to anybody, because they do not need it to get elected.
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I would argue that you are wrong and that WWII in particular was caused by Germany trying to take over half of Europe.
If the current government is so incompetent, why hasn’t the Parliament blocked any of the Government’s bills?
The last time the Coalition was in government they reduced spending on health in real terms by $1 billion a year.
The Health Minister that over saw that reduction in spending was Tony Abbott.
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TonyOfOz @ 37.
In the UK it is frequently too calm or too windy to generate 50 Hz so even 20% is optimistic but Chris Bufhne has ordered more windmills. Perhaps the 8 nuclear reactors he’s talking about are to fill-in the 80% CF shortfall in his wind policy. All of his options seem to be squandering funds which are desperately needed elsewhere in the economy.
One renewable with a consistent and predictable CF is tidal hydro. We never bothered sailing against the tide in the 20 km long Menai Straight between island of Anglesey and mainland Wales because it was too fast. I’d be happy to pay extra taxes to develop more efficient methods of extracting this energy.
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Your question exposes your thoughts(using the word loosely).
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Au hospitals are under-staffed and older experienced nurses are opting out. A friend of mine died following a heart attack, which occurred long after he was admitted to Sydney public hospital but due to poor quality nursing and a shortage of doctors he was over-looked.
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The fact you didn’t answer the question demonstrates that you don’t really have an argument.
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Maxine says
I have to disagree. I’m pricing my own PV array based upon an 8ft by 4ft sheet of toughened glass and cosmetic 2nds PV cells off e-bay. The glass alone is $700 and would inevitably increase in price with a CO2 tax because it is an energy intense product. My disposable income would also be less under a CO2 tax.
Spray-on PV emulsions are being developed but their efficiency is down at about 5% and most houses would be struggling to have sufficient Sun-facing roof area. There is no way solar PV will ever halve in price unless a radical new technology is invented.
With cloud cover on the increase solar PV is fighting an uphill battle. It’s only ever going to be useful in remote areas or as a driver for low power applications such as LED lighting where one only requires small batteries. I’ve lived with solar PV and one has to turn on a generator as soon as you want to run a washing machine for more than one cycle or if it is a cloudy day. It’s a nice idea which does not add up in reality even if you do have the $40K spare for a normal house sized system.
Although coal fired electricity produces a lot of toxic fly ash and releases more radiation to its surroundings than a nuclear reactor it really is a sensible option right now. It’s cheap, safe, reliable technology and if we were really smart we could extract the CO2 and run it through glasshouses for winter food production in cool climates. In the coming cold times it might be smart to invest in a glass manufacturer.
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Well you can’t expect the government to give hand outs to everyone, that’s socialism.
It is sick we live in a country where someone on half median weekly earnings still pays income tax. The tax free threshold should be set at half median weekly earnings, and it should be indexed so it increases as median earnings increases.
The increase of the tax free threshold to almost $21K by 2014/15 is a good start.
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How much union money was spent on Thomson’s campaign?
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/how_much_union_money_was_spent_on_thomsons_campaign/
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31 Aug: NBC: Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy
President Obama touted the facility only a year ago
“I was told by a security guard to get my [stuff] and leave,” one employee said. The company employs a little more than 1,000 employees worldwide, according to its website.
Shortly after it opened a massive $700 million facility, it canceled plans for a public stock offering earlier this year and warned it would be in significant trouble if federal loan guarantees did not go through…
Solyndra was touted by the Obama administration as a prime example of how green technology could deliver jobs. The President visited the facility in May of last year and said “it is just a testament to American ingenuity and dynamism and the fact that we continue to have the best universities in the world, the best technology in the world, and most importantly the best workers in the world. And you guys all represent that. ”
The federal government offered $535 million in low cost loan guarantees from the Department of Energy. NBC Bay Area has contacted the White House asking for a statement.
Some Republicans have been very critical of the loans. “I am concerned that the DOE is providing loans and loan guarantees to firms that aren’t capable of competing in the global market, even with government subsidies” Florida Congressman Cliff Stearns told the New York Times.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Solyndra-Shutting-Down-128802718.html
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Tristan@97
This is my opinion, and mine alone
You will find that you will really struggle to come up with any single label to fit the majority of regulars here, imo.
A common trait is definitely being an independant thinker. The kinds of people who once interested in something will research it and investigate it from many angles. Lateral thinking is common.
Another trait is often the ability to detect spin and propoganda a mile off. Suffering fools does happen, but i find i struggle with that one a bit.
You will find many of the regulars are highly educated -often formally but also self taught. There are labor supporters here as well as liberal, quite a few were greenies back when being environmentally conscious meant actually doing things yourself, rather than succumbing to the spin of some globalistic nutters ideals.
Where new visitors who may oppose many of the views here go wrong, is they jump in throwing propoganda lines around with presumably some preconcieved pidgeon hole idea of who the regulars are.
again, just my opinion.
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I should also add that labor supporters have been moving away from that line more and more over the last couple of years -just as has been happenning elsewhere in australia
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No. It demonstrates that I went to sleep. It demonstrates that I consider “your questions” on display and your urgent desire for a response, only damage your political cause. Have a nice day.
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31 Aug: Euractiv: Romania suspended from Kyoto carbon trading
A UN panel has suspended Romania’s right to trade its surplus carbon emissions after it breached rules on emissions reporting, Bucharest’s environment ministry said on 28 August.
The UNFCCC compliance committee, which had been meeting in Bonn for a week, found “irregularities” in Romania’s 2010 greenhouse gas emissions data, and ruled that its national emissions inventory had been inadequately kept.
“Maybe tough measures will lead to more transparent information,” Natalia Yakymenko, an analyst with Point Carbon, told EurActiv from Kiev.
“It’s hard to evaluate whether Romania’s projects have really generated anything.”…
On 25 August, another Eastern European country, Ukraine, also had its carbon credit trading rights suspended after the UNFCCC found that it had under-reported its greenhouse gas emissions.
Kiev had reportedly failed to act on earlier warnings that it was in non-compliance…
http://www.euractiv.com/en/climate-environment/romania-suspended-kyoto-carbon-trading-news-507163
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very little MSM reporting on this and Guardian only puts it on a blog…
30 Aug: Guardian Blog: Damian Carrington: Climate change concern tumbles in US and China
Concern about climate change ranges from over 90% in Thailand to less than 50% in the US, with the global average 69%. Graph: Nielsen
The Nielsen survey finds that less than half of Americans (48%) are concerned about global warming, compared to 51% in 2009 and 62% in 2007. With 14 point fall in 4 years, one can see why Republican climate sceptics feel comfortable rejecting the idea that every nation on earth (including their own) has accepted: that human activities are causing climate change and that the need to cut greenhouse gas emissions is pressing.
More surprisingly perhaps, opinion in China is also on the slide. Concern fell from 77% in 2009 to 64% in 2011, putting it back nearer to 2007’s figure of 60%…
Where extreme weather has the worst impacts, concern is rising, it seems, which is hardly surprising…
The good news there is that climate scepticism remains a fringe view, at less than 10% of global citizens.
The bad news is that in many of the nations with the biggest carbon footprints – US, UK and Australia (per capita) and China (total emissions) – plenty of people seem to think that climate change is a problem that can dealt with another day.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2011/aug/30/climate-change-opinion-skeptic
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O/T but in many ways linked. Check the great article by Paul Driessen titled “Climate prostitutes, charlatans and comedians” currently featured at “ICECAP”. Obesity and global warming now linked by “experts” is one of the many hilarious but unfortunately true items covered.
He’s in the USA but could be writing about Australia or anywhere in the world
http://www.icecap.us/
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Madjak @119
Well said.
This issue of CAGW has been highly politicised for one reason alone. The usual reason : money.
Although my main interest is science, this particular problem , CAGW, cannot be divorced from politics because it was created by politics and its final demise must be politically based.
My own political leaning has been to the independents but an overwhelming need for security, financial stability and a smattering of common sense in government has made me cheer for the liberals, despite their faults.
I have less antagonism for the liberals than Labor.
They at least pushed back at the ferry service from Indonesia to Christmas island and stemmed the flow of economic refugees who’s only connection to Australia was the draw of our hard earned social security benefits.
The paradox is that the huge amount of taxpayers cash saved from this action of micro managing “queue jumpers” has made it possible for Australia to help more genuine refugees in their homelands through the proper channels.
John Howard’s Liberal Government was appreciated for its financial management of the country up until he introduced the baby bonus where he showed his lack of principles.
He had shown more of this poor judgement in not standing up to the French over nuclear weapons testing in the pacific ( our backyard – not France’s). No principles.
The point of all this political outline is to illustrate that no one person or government can be trusted on everything and that Global Warming, being a very difficult scientific concept, needs more scrutiny and effort on our part.
We must maintain constant scrutiny of government to avoid being enslaved by Tax Collectors.
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Mary at #125
Mary – Its an oversimplification to say CAGW politics is only about money.
I think there is quite a strong subplot driven by religion too. The religious element is quite new and immature, arising only since about 1980. If you read history you’ll see time and time again that new religions think everyone will sign up (and are nonplussed when they don’t) and they one and all go political. Political parties, political power, the whole lot. It takes a long time before this politicisation fades.
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Some research does not require massive Govt funding. Dr Hulda Clark cured many cancer patients by killing their paracites and cleaning out specific pollutants. She theorised that worms excrete a growth hormone and the Queensland Institute of Medical Research has begun to prove this in the case of liver cancer. The worm excretes granulin.
Google the Qld IMR and search for “Parasite_growth_hormone_pushes_human_cells_to_cancer”. (I cannot get the link tab to work)
My friend (@113) who died of a heart attack in Windsor Hospital had some years earlier been diagnosed with a terminal lung tumour and was sent home with morphine. Independent live blood analysis showed massive paracites infestation so we gave him the $200 herbal deparacitising program and regular shots of IV Vit C. A month later he was looking much better and a year later his gob-smacked oncologist was at a loss to explain why he had no trace of cancer. Drs are supposed to be scientists yet none of them asked what the treatment was. His story is typical of many that I’ve read about and many Drs world wide are now coyly applying this self help approach because it has no side effects, is cheap and the full program cleans out the kidney micro-tubules and the liver so is beneficial to any human being.
The third week of the Clark Protocols involves fasting, a grapefruit, a cup of olive oil and big spoonful of Espom Salts. The results are dire but well worth the effort.
There is no money in this for the multi-nationals who effectively run medicine in The West. They fund a multi-million dollar PR disinformation campaign against alternatives such as Dr Clark’s and Governments tend to be subservient to big business solutions.
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Reluctant as I am to ‘seem’ to be giving Oxygen to commenters like Max, he made a flippant mention that we can contribute to our own electricity demands by installing rooftop solar, because, maybe in the long run, the cost of the panels will come down.
Some of you may actually think that this is something that is possible, so in reality, my comment here is informational, and not really a direct response to Max, giving the impression of my taking the bait from him.
I mentioned in the earlier Thread about rooftop solar power that a large scale rooftop installation that is in effect barely revenue neutral only, that the overall installation might cost in the vicinity of $40,000, give or take some, depending on the Company you may purchase it from.
The panels themselves is where the technology is improving.
However, the cost of the panels, only one part of that installation, when you take into account, the inverter, the bank of batteries, (probably the highest cost of the installation) the charger, the wiring etc, the cost of the panels themselves would be in the vicinity of $10,000 give or take, so that’s $30,000 part of the cost without the panels.
Let’s believe their rhetoric that the cost of the panels will actually halve, and believe me, that really would not happen, as you might imagine.
If the cost of the panels halved from 10K down to 5K, the total installation cost does not halve.
Now you have 5K for the panels, and 30K for the rest of the installation, hence 35K, which is nowhere even close to half of the current 40K.
So, the sanguine belief that technology improvements will see the cost of panels halving, does not make for halving the price of rooftop solar power.
Keep in mind that the rooftop solar power owner is still a net consumer of power FROM the grid.
Another false belief on the part of people who have a separate agenda to pursue.
As I have mentioned all along, the generation and consumption of electrical power is more than just flicking the switch and having that item operational.
It’s a complex thing that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Politics.
Tony.
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Hi Bruce
O/T You probably live just around the corner.
Yes there is a strong element of religion in the CAGW thing but on its own it would have no power.
The only reason the AGW apostles get any support is that they help entrain more voters into the mire.
Politicians will use any means of drawing voters and the CAGW religion is a perfect vehicle for vote getting.
So politicians pour huge amounts of money into the Green left via Greenpiece, Getup etc.
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J Knowles @ 127
Found this fascinating.
Your comment that : “Drs are supposed to be scientists”” could be qualified by separating Working GPs from University based research Doctors.
Basically GPs are restricted to doing what they are told. Any deviation from “Established Fact” might get them into trouble.
Research doctors might be the problem area as they are funded to find solutions to problems only if the backers can make money out of it.
We need the original CSIRO back in place.
On a more personal level I have used one teaspoon from a pack of Epsom salts but haven’t had the guts to go full on. maybe your remedy could be the next test run.
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TonyfromOz:
Hi
You mention the batteries needed to support this solar system.
It’s OK for a few people to use this system but if we all had to do it there would be a gigantic problem.
There just is not enough “material” available to make the batteries.
Being “Green” only works in small doses .
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I wont give you evidence as it is rather overwhelming but if you have access to an academic library with searchable journal subscriptions you will find, with a simple search, reviews and original papers that confirm the following.
No efficacious insecticide that has been introduced and persistently used has failed to select for insecticide resistance or tolerance in target (and many non target) populations. None. DDT resistance is found in many dipterans including mosquito species.
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Gee Aye at #132
Your comment is correct but misses the point. I will edit your sentence to the following by replacing just one word:
No efficacious antibiotic that has been introduced and persistently used has failed to select for antibiotic resistance or tolerance in target (and many non target) populations.
This statement is also true.
Does that mean we should not use antibiotics to save the lives of countless people? Should we not therefore also use pesticides to prevent the deaths of countless malaria sufferers? Then, like antibiotics develop new ones to bypass the adaptational biochemistry of the target pathogens?
Think carefully about the implications of your answer.
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Gee Aye
Anything in isolation is always exposed as unsuitable – the reasoning here is looking at single usage as pest management – when multiple substances are used in a managed rotational basis – the resistance is reduced dramatically especially in Anopheles species. The problem with your arguement is that slowly all insecticides are eventually banned – there is no magic efficacious insecticide – there is only common sense and scientific experimentation in rotational pest management. DDT will play a very important role in years to come when used in conjunction with other chemicals (both organic and inorganic).
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Gee Aye
I hate to agree with you but Common “scientifc’ sense would suggest as you say:
“”No efficacious insecticide that has been introduced and persistently used has failed to select for insecticide resistance or tolerance in target (and many non target) populations.””
On the same topic, since DDT has not been used for some time in many areas there may not be insect strains who have established resistance and would therefore be vulnerable to it.
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ps
I note in the rest of that post you mention “rotation”.
Should have read the whole lot before jumping in.
Science is more interesting than politics or philosophy.
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Bruce 133
Note you have mentioned “persistent useage”.
I should learn to read down the page.
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HI and here is a material Safety Data Sheet for DDT that some idiot text dumped onto their blog
http://geeaye.blogspot.com/2011/08/ddt-msds.html
you can all make up your own minds on DDT. It does not go into much depth about toxic breakdown products that accumulate in adipose.
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Thanks for your comment Bruce but I was not disputing the point you made nor commenting on it, nor missing it. As seen in my post, I cited an earlier post. I thought it was fairly clear that my comment was regarding the bit in the square brackets.
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Dave, and I agree with what you had to say but my response is the same as the one I gave to Bruce. There are many strategies that actually work to minimize the impact of resistance. Unfortunately in many localities they are seldom, if ever applied.
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Thought it was too good to be true.
A brief moment of science but of course it was against his nature.
In 139 – 140 we get back to the real Philosopher? – Lawyer? – Politicians Aids – and his patronising manner.
Is this the one somebody previously referred to as an Idiot, or was that Adam Smith or Maxime?
Notice how now he’s back, some of the others have become inactive? Multiple personas.
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…and multiple conspiracy theories and assumptions.
Please note in my posts that I acknowledged the correct statements made in response to my comments and then made the point that while factually correct, they were being used to dispute things that I was not actually making. You don’t need to be a philosopher (heaven help me if I was a philosopher) to logically break down arguments. Even some scientists are capable.
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Gee Aye,
the use of MSDS as an informational tool needs to be placed in context.
After my 25 years in the Air Force, I worked for a number of years as a State accredited and licensed Workplace Health and Safety Officer (WHSO) at a Company with almost 100 workers.
Part of my task was to have talks every so often with the workers about aspects specific to the work they were undertaking, and those talks were on a regular basis, and on a large variety of differing subjects.
At that particular workplace, the workers were using a variety of different chemicals, mostly perceived as harmless, mainly because they had been in constant use for decades.
I had to chase up the MSDS for all those chemicals, and believe me, that was no easy task, as the distributors of those chemicals were reluctant to release information about them.
As soon as I mentioned that I was a WHSO, and mentioned the relevant regulatory requirements for those MSDS to be made available, people would fall over themselves to provide them, and it was so odd to see something like this happen, mainly stemming from people’s outright fear of a Government Department.
Once those MSDS were supplied, and I chased up more than 50 of them, my job was to decipher them, especially with relationship to exposure times and possible effects of any exposure, be that airborne, or more commonly, taken in via skin contact at the place I worked.
The first task was to implement the method of last resort Personal Protection, in the form of rubber gloves, and then I had to chase up the one best suited.
It took an education program to actually get people to wear those thin protective disposable gloves, relevant for the application they were to be used with, and there are a large variety of gloves on offer, numbering in the hundred, depending on what the chemical is, so I had to find a generic one that people would actually wear.
Part of that entailed those ‘talks’, with respect to the chemicals they were working with, and if those MSDS were designed to almost indecipherable to experts, I was going to find it impossible to explain to the ordinary workers the importance of what was said in those MSDS.
As an example for just this purpose, I chased up one particular MSDS, and this one was shorter than most, only 4 pages in length.
For those talks, I would quote from the relevant sections of that particular MSDS and occasionally look up to see the looks of sometimes horror on the faces of my workmates.
At the end of quoting from that MSDS, I let them ask questions about it before telling them what the substance was, and I had a small bottle of it to show them.
It was common old Dawn Dishwashing liquid, you know, the old TV ad:
‘Pretty Green’, ‘You know you’re soaking in it’.
I was using that example for context, because wherever each person worked, they had to have access to copies of those MSDS, and any reading of them without an understanding of what to look for would have been worse than not telling them in the first place.
So, and I know I waffle on sometimes, here’s the point I’m getting to.
I understand DDT is not Dawn Dishwashing liquid, but as you read that Material Safety Data Sheet, be aware of the need to cover absolutely everything in it, and in 99 cases out of 100, the average person is not exposed to the large quantities where those adverse health effects that are associated with any chemical of any nature.
Incidentally, with respect to getting my fellow workmates to wear those disposable gloves, it took a while for it to come into place.
They came in boxes of 100 and I would order them at a carton of 8 boxes at a time. It was almost two months before I ordered the second carton of 8 boxes, and when I left that Company a couple of years later, they were ordering a Carton every 4 working days.
It was the first thing the guys did in the morning before starting work. Off they’d come at Smoko, lunch time, and afternoon smoko, into the bin, and a new pair when they returned to work.
MSDS are a fine tool, but context needs to remembered when referring to them, and this in no way is meant to trivialise what those MSDS say.
Tony.
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Mary, just to get back to an earlier comment you made regarding reintroduction of DDT. Indeed it is true that levels of resistance drop (often quickly) in the absence of the selective pressure. The reason is that the mutation (most often – due to the mode of selection – it is just one mutation in one gene) causing the resistance is in a gene with an important function. The insecticide is, of course, hitting a vital function so that a mutation that changes that function to resist the chemical will most likely lower the fitness of the insect in the absence of the chemical. In addition resistance by detoxification also usually involves changing the activity of an important enzyme away from optimal fitness.
So when the insecticide is not being applied the insects carrying the resistance modifications are less fit than the susceptible individuals.
Then again if you use an insecticide for long enough fitness modifier genes can develop – a whole new can of worms.
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Thanks Tony,
the msds is just there as a quick reference and guideline and I know of many that over or understate aspects of a chemical’s nature. I doubt that this data sheet is citing studies selectively but really I don’t know.
Apropos of nothing, dishwashing liquid contains SDS or similar “soaps” (sorry for the confusion with MSDS), that in a dry form will turn the epithelium of your lungs to sludge.
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also apropos of nothing – all your supermarkets should hold Safety data sheets for their hazardous products. Be annoying and ask them. I do (am). Aldi is way the best
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Just read this::
“”Please note in my posts that I acknowledged the correct statements made in response to my comments and then made the point that while factually correct, they were being used to dispute things that I was not actually making. You don’t need to be a philosopher (heaven help me if I was a philosopher) to logically break down arguments.””
Fits the old analogy of
“Going round and round in ever diminishing circles until finally he disappears up his own a*se in a blinding flash of blue light.”
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Madjak @ 119:
Spot on mate. It is a lot easier to relax and let the spin do the talking, but a true sceptic researchs for her/himself, gets the data, runs a sceptical eye over it and then draws up an argument. As I said, much easier to be lazy and just make baseless assertions, but they are just that… they might be right on occasion, but that would be pure coincidence.
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Gee Aye at #146
Yes, MSDS’s are a good thing for people to read. I’ve even written one or two.
However the problem is they are black and white, whereas the real world is best served by cost-risk-benefit assessment. This is exactly the issue that the Greens find so hard regarding the DDT question (and many others – think GM for example).
An example is arsenic trioxide. In the middle ages a community of people logically known as the arsenic eaters consumed as much as 0.3 g or As2O3 at a time. That amount would be lethal for you or I, but can be tolerated if the body is slowly acclimatised. Why did they do this?
Here is a quote (Mellor’s Treatise vol 9 p 45):
Worth reading the whole page, fascinating stuff, especially the bit about arsenic-eaters being “the origin of the story of the vampire”.
My point with this is DDT and other poisons are potentially beneficial. The cost-risk-benefit equation is based on the philosophy of the individual person. Should you kill birds due to DDT to save people? Conversely should you kill birds due to wind turbines to ‘save people’?
My view is you should at least be internally consistent, and savvy. Read MSDS’s with intelligence not ideology. And do not be hypocritical about DDT vs wind turbines.
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Mark D @100 and Adam Smith
You betcha it all gets passed on to the consumer. Take a look at the New Zealand situation since there has been an ETS in place – and even the whiff of and ETS. Power prices have been ratcheted up inexorably. Ultimately it has been very inflationary and there is no incentive for the producers to economise or look for efficiencies.
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31 Aug: WUWT: Solar’s lead balloon of pollution in developing countries
From the University of Tennessee at Knoxville
Solar industry responsible for lead emissions in developing countries
Solar power is not all sunshine. It has a dark side—particularly in developing countries, according to a new study by a University of Tennessee, Knoxville, engineering professor.
A study by Chris Cherry, assistant professor in civil and environmental engineering, found that solar power heavily reliant on lead batteries has the potential to release more than 2.4 million tons of lead pollution in China and India.
Lead poisoning causes numerous adverse health effects, including damage to the central nervous system, the kidneys, the cardiovascular system, and the reproductive system. In children, blood lead concentration is associated with learning impairments, as well as hyperactive and violent behavior.
His study, co-authored with Perry Gottesfeld of Occupational Knowledge International (OK International), appears in the September issue of the journal Energy Policy…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/31/solars-lead-balloon-of-pollution-in-developing-countries/#more-46441
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Dave @ 98
This is the first (and therefore most recent) in a journal article search for “DDT AND resistance AND insecticide AND mosquito”. 216 citations but of course not all reporting resistance to DDT. Is this the sort of evidence you wanted from Maxine?
Insecticide resistance in the Anopheles gambiae complex in Benin: a nationwide survey
Author(s): Djogbenou, L (Djogbenou, L.)1,2; Pasteur, N (Pasteur, N.)3; Akogbeto, M (Akogbeto, M.); Weill, M (Weill, M.)3; Chandre, F (Chandre, F.)2
Source: MEDICAL AND VETERINARY ENTOMOLOGY Volume: 25 Issue: 3 Pages: 256-267 DOI: 10.1111/j.1365-2915.2010.00925.x Published: SEP 2011
Part of abstract:
Overall, our study showed that the S molecular form of An. gambiae s. s. predominates and is widely distributed across the country, whereas the frequency of the M form shows a strong decline with increasing latitude. Susceptibility to DDT, permethrin, carbosulfan and chlorpyrifos-methyl was assessed; individual mosquitoes were identified for species and molecular forms, and genotyped for the kdr and ace-1 loci. Full susceptibility to chlorpyrifos-methyl was recorded and very few samples displayed resistance to carbosulfan. High resistance levels to permethrin were detected in most samples and almost all samples displayed resistance to DDT. The kdr-Leu-Phe mutation was present in all localities and in both molecular forms of An. gambiae s. s. Furthermore, the ace-1(R) mutation was predominant in the S form, but absent from the M form. By contrast, no target modification was observed in Anopheles arabiensis. Resistance in the An. gambiae S molecular form in this study seemed to be associated with agricultural practices.
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Just to be thorough, here is the oldest citation in that search (oldest because the search does not go back further)
COMPARATIVE USE OF BENDIOCARB AND DDT TO CONTROL ANOPHELES-PSEUDOPUNCITPENNIS IN A MALARIOUS AREA OF MEXICO
Author(s): LOYOLA, EG (LOYOLA, EG); VACA, MA (VACA, MA); BOWN, DN (BOWN, DN); PEREZ, E (PEREZ, E); RODRIGUEZ, MH (RODRIGUEZ, MH)
Source: MEDICAL AND VETERINARY ENTOMOLOGY Volume: 5 Issue: 2 Pages: 233-242 DOI: 10.1111/j.1365-2915.1991.tb00546.x Published: APR 1991
Times Cited: 12 (from Web of Science)
Cited References: 0 Citation Map
Abstract: The state of Sinaloa has one of the highest and most persistent malaria transmission levels in Mexico. Due to this situation, with resistance of the vector Anopheles pseudopunctipennis Theobald to DDT, the carbamate insecticide bendiocarb was evaluated as an alternative to DDT for residual house-spraying in village-scale trials during 1985-87. Application rates of the active ingredient per square metre of sprayable surface (ai/m2) were 0.4 g bendiocarb 80% wettable powder (80WP) and 2 g DDT 75% WP.
Both insecticides failed to control mosquito populations. Humanbait mosquito densities were not altered as a result of insecticide spraying and human-bait collected mosquito mortality rates were low, suggesting little pre-biting insecticide contact due to avoidance or insufficient resting time indoors. Lower densities of indoor-resting mosquitoes were observed with DDT as opposed to bendiocarb treated houses. Anopheline mortality was higher (98-100%) when exposed for 1 h to 1% bendiocarb in standard WHO susceptibility tests and wall bioassays. Mortality-rates of 15-48% due to 1 h exposure to 4% DDT indicated that this insecticide may continue to be partially effective. House curtain and mark-recapture mosquito studies indicated that DDT produced higher excito-repellency than bendiocarb, as reflected by more mosquito landings but lower feeding rates, shorter resting period and earlier exist time from DDT sprayed houses.
In the absence of insecticide, more than 50% of blood-fed An.pseudopunctipennis females exited from houses within 2-4 h of release, showing exophilic behaviour. The outdoor/indoor density ratio indicated that the majority were exophagic. These behavioural characteristics limit the usefulness of any residual insecticide against An.pseudopunctipennis.
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Health Effects of Indoor Fluoride Pollution From Coal Burning in China
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1533102
“The combustion of high fluoride-content coal as an energy resource for heating, cooking, and food drying is a major exhaust emission source of suspended particulate matter and fluoride. High concentrations of these pollutants have been observed in indoor air of coal-burning families in some rural areas in China. Because airborne fluoride has serious toxicological properties, fluoride pollution in indoor air and the prevalence of fluorosis have been analyzed in a fluorosis area and a healthy nonfluorosis area in China and in a rural area in Japan. For human health, fluoride in indoor air has not only been directly inhaled by residents but also has been absorbed in stored food such as corn, chilies, and potatoes. In the fluorosis area in China, concentrations of urinary fluoride in the residents have been much higher than in the nonfluorosis area in China and in the rural area in Japan. In the fluorosis area, almost all elementary and junior high school students 10-15 years of age had dental fluorosis. Osteosclerosis in the skeletal fluorosis patients was very serious. Urinary deoxypyridinoline in rural residents in China was much higher than in rural residents in Japan. Data suggest that bone resorption was extremely stimulated in the residents in China and that fluoride may stimulate both bone resorption and bone formation. Because indoor fluoride from combustion of coal is easily absorbed in stored food and because food consumption is a main source of fluoride exposure, it is necessary to reduce airborne fluoride and food contamination to prevent serious fluorosis in China.”
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O/T:
Gillards lies re- China leading Australia in carbon reduction exposed.
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Gee Aye @ 152
I had results of this article back in 2006 – and it has only now been released after surveys conducted by Benin in 2006 – 2007 exclusively based on the use of insecticide-treated nets and indoor residual spraying. You have the results above – but omitted is fact that successful extensive vector control was undertaken after this survey involving all of the chemicals surveyed by Benin. As I stated earlier -current methods involve a large scale and diverse management of vector eradication which are gaining results – especially in Ghana where the malaria problem seemed to be the worst. The Benin survey also found that the chlorpyrifos-methyl compounds showed no resistance buildup by the mosquitoes sampled – even though only studied when applied indoors. All of the results were gathered from indoor residual spraying or treated net applications. The Gates foundation is still pouring millions into new avenues of research for total eradication – hopefully one day successful. Education is still one of the biggest tasks in aiding eradication.
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the idiocy of every aspect of the fake fight against CAGW becomes more obvious all the time:
26 Aug: Euractiv: Europe emits huge unreported F-gas cloud: Report
European chemical manufacturers are covertly venting huge quantities of the powerful ‘super greenhouse gas’ HFC-23, according to a study by the Swiss Federal Laboratories for Materials Science and Technology (EMPA).
The report, published in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, says that Western Europe’s emissions of HFC-23s – an ‘F’ or fluorinated gas mainly used as a refrigerant – are between 60-140% higher than officially reported.
Italy alone was found to be emitting 10-20 times more HFC-23s than it officially reports. The greenhouse gas has a global warming potential which is 14,800 times higher than CO2.
The UK and the Netherlands also emitted around twice as much as they claimed, although the figures for France and Germany were “within the reported values”…
EMPA pointed the finger at Italy’s “sole HFC-22 plant west of Milan” (Solvay’s Solexis plant at Spinetta Marengo) as being responsible for the country’s over-emission of HFC-23s…
In January, EU Climate Action Commissioner Connie Hedegaard announced that carbon credits gained from destroying HFC-23s would no longer be tradable under the EU’s Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS).
In the year 2008-2009, 84% of ETS carbon credits had been used to finance the destruction of HFC-23 plants in China and India.
Critics said that this encouraged a booming HFC-23 industry by guaranteeing a market for the substance to be bought and destroyed…
http://www.euractiv.com/en/climate-environment/europe-emits-huge-unreported-gas-cloud-report-news-507124
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Dave @152
If I have confused what you said in 98 then I hope that some readers got something out of the abstracts I pasted – at least an awareness of the depth of research needed to get on top of such problems.
In 98 I understood you to be asking Maxine to show that there are DDT resistant genotypes among malaria carrying mosquitos. Did I miss something?
I fully agree that approaches that include strong local knowledge and education and informed use of chemical agents are attacking the problem well.
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Now Gillard lashes out at the Chief Justice, too !!
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/now_gillard_lashes_out_at_the_chief_justice_too/
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Dave
Stuff being quoted about house spraying in Mexico is a bit useless.
If you have to rely on that you might as well move.
The only permanent solution is to prevent hatching by covering stagnant water with a sealant eg kero.
If you have swamps nearby that are untreated you might as well give up.
Kero is not expensive.
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Meet New Zealand’s ETS: costly, corrupted and useless………
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/meet_new_zealands_ets_costly_corrupted_and_useless/P60/
Alan Jones talks to Rodney Hyde – New Zealand MP on the impact of an ETS:-
http://www.2gb.com/podcasts/alanjones/alanjoneshyde120810.mp3
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A bit late here, but back to the original article.
Our expenditure priorities and the outcomes are interesting. Any expenditure you disagree with always seems like a waste. If you are a Quaker, then spending on an army will be a waste. If you are a greenie, then spending on industry subsidies won’t make sense to you.
Therefore, from Jo’s point of view, she is quite right – spending on renewable energy sources and such is a waste. If, on the other hand, you see the transition to a low carbon economy as important, then the expenditure is not a waste.
There is, however, one small piece of Jo’s argument which is a bit weak. A quick wave of the hands, and hopefully we’ve got past the weak bit and nobody has noticed. But its still there. That is, if we didn’t spend the money of solar subsidies etc, what reason is there to believe it will go to cancer patients, or the starving in Somalia, or whatever other thing is deemed more deserving?
All of a sudden, its not just a straight transfer of money from what we don’t like to what we do like. Its a battle among all the deserving (and undeserving) areas that want more funding. So its better roads, more nurses, more linear accelerators, better funded universities, more foreign aid, more military spending, more medical research, more industry assistance, or just plain less government spending, etc, etc, etc.
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John Brookes @ 162
It is if the thieves in government leave it in our wallets instead of taxing it.
Which, of course, is exactly what Jo was advocating when she wrote:
But which you, typically, chose to ignore.
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Oh memoryvault, why don’t you just come out and say it?
In your (and Jo’s) best of all possible worlds, many more people would die for the lack of cancer treatment, because they couldn’t afford it.
So the tears for the cancer deaths were just crocodile tears after all. Who would have thought it….
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John Brookes @ 164
John, when I was a much younger man there was no “socialised” medicine, EVERYBODY was covered by private health insurance (as an affordable wage deduction, or paid by the government for those unemployed), and waiting times at hospitals were virtually non-existent. Plus there were regional and suburban hospitals within fifteen minutes of most people’s homes.
You want to explain how things are so much “better” today?
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memoryvault in 165
health outcomes were worse prior to the 1970’s. Maybe you should check out some data before making rash statements. Let’s start with life expectancy as a broad indicator of public health outcomes.
By the way, in case Mary is watching and does not understand the limits to which I have limited myself in sceptically examining this statement, I am not attributing the cause of the clear and well documented better health today. I am simply stating that health outcomes are broadly better than today. If you want to say something meaningful about private vs public you need to say how it would have been better without a national health system and give some evidence to support the claim.
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MV…
I just re read your comment and found it very confusing as I think it is mixing historical periods (i.e. imagining the past using today as a lens) and not taking account of other changes going on outside of the medical infrastructure.
“waiting times” – the concept of elective and emergency care is recent and the whole referral system and all that it entails was completely different in the past. Also, the uptake rate (i.e. the willingness of individuals to commit money to hospital care) and the rate of diagnosis from primary carers (i.e. the referral rate) is lower and the ability to detect many illnesses early was limited. Basically, today, even if the wait is unacceptable, intervention for most illnesses is happening earlier in the progression of the illness. With surgery… there are far more options today; the ACL I had repaired on my private insurance was not even a possible procedure in 1980.
More and smaller hospitals because they were built before private powered transport or later when many people did not drive, or the driver in the house was not at home. Also roads and other infrastructure (ambulances) dictated that it was desirable to bring health services to people. Back then home visits from GPs were much more common for the same reason. Later, regional hospitals closed down due to economies of efficiency (free market approaches apply here too – the governments of both persuasions could not justify to the electorates spending on cash sinks and they were not profitable, so private investors were not interested).
So there is a lot of wholesale changes in society that feed into the equation. Again if you are able to tease apart from this complexity how private vs public health would have made things different today, I’d be very interested.
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Memoryvault @ 165
“”well documented better health today”” Now there’s a statement.
I think it’s well documented that the aimlessness of our current youth (blame government inaction on giving direction thru work) is allied to serious mental issues and an appalling youth suicide rate. Australia a world leader. Giving kids the dole in exchange for their vote is disgusting.
“”health outcomes were worse prior to the 1970′s””
This is a very broad statement which needs qualification. Yes, when you got to hospital health outcomes were worse because treatments for many medical problems have improved.
The problem with the statement is that fewer people went to hospital because there were life factors that kept us healthier back in the 50s and 60s. They were forced on us; less food, more work, less grog, being expected to follow community expectations of making a contribution, being aware of others rights and obligations; and so feeling we had earned our kep; ALL OF US!!.
The present population is a medical nightmare because of social factors.
Currently we have more food to consume (obesity on grand scale, many young people with bowel cancer (alcohol?? Binging?) many more spontaneous abortions and foetal alcohol syndrome births rampant.
Yes we can look after pre-term babies better but they will always suffer the effects of that period in the womb. One of the reasons I hated Howards Baby Bonus vote grab.
Yes we can treat things better now. Big deal.
We don’t have better general health — we need more treatment because we don’t look after each other.
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Just providing the links to go with my
first post , Make of them what you will
My only aim is to give people the information
http://www.burzynskiclinic.com/
http://www.curenaturalicancro.com/
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Thanks for the run-down Madjak 🙂
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Oh John, why don’t you just come out and say it: you have never taken the time to study logic and rhetoric which is why you never cease to embarrass yourself. Take your statement, “In your (and Jo’s) best of all possible worlds, many more people would die for the lack of cancer treatment, because they couldn’t afford it.” is a straw man as neither Jo nor Memoryvault made such a statement.
Crocodile tears? Are you saying that skeptics are all cold hearted people who do not care the least about the welfare of others?
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Thanks Eddy,
indeed there are ways to judiciously and sensibly apply DDT. Your examples show this well. And also, as your last example testifies – even best practice can’t rule out the chance of resistance. We are always trying to reduce and minimise the chance of resistance but in a complex world we can’t rule it out. This is an area of science where data plugged into the best informed models gives good outcomes for application in the field.
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Time to bump this thread back on topic. Speaking as one that has personally received a lifetime dose of radiotherapy in the good ole USA, I’m not happy to hear that my Australian friends are not able to get this effective treatment due to equipment shortages!
I’m also surprised that no one here has questioned whether the shortage of linear accelerators is because of your AU version of socialized medicine?
As to the Malthusian twisted mind of a tyrannical Green, I could be persuaded to believe that the premature deaths somehow balance on a great Green scale.
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The Senate admits that government in Australia is an elected dictatorship.
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/pubs/hamer/chap11.htm
“Can Responsible Government Survive In Australia?
What is wrong with an elective dictatorship?
The executive government has always been seen as the primary source of tyranny, and in Britain the Parliament was developed to control its power. After centuries of struggle, this control was finally achieved in the nineteenth century by making the executive government responsible to the Parliament. The growth of disciplined political parties in the twentieth century has reversed this responsibility, and the executive government can now often control the parliament, resulting in a form of elective dictatorship.”
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No, I’m saying that skeptics develop a convenient case of caring about the welfare of others when it suits their arguments.
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JOHN BROOKS YOU (SNIPPED) CTS and I hope the moderators snip the crap out of you and me.
YOU CANNOT know what level of compassion I possess. Your post at 176 is more offensive than anything you’ve ever posted. MAY YOU burn baby burn……
(Feel better?) CTS
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To elaborate, the slimy left like JB only have compassion when there is a vote at play. Otherwise it’s euthanasia and abortion. Lots of compassion there eh John?
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John Brookes @ 176
You mean, as compared to the utter lack of compassion by you mass-murdering cultists who have already killed millions with your ban on DDT, millions more with your biofuels, and millions more by denying third world countries access to cheap, abundant energy from fossil fuels, all for the sake of “saving the planet” – whatever that means.
John Brookes, you have plumbed new depths of cynicism – even for a genocidal cultist.
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Hi Mary,
just back on the health debate thing from above. You make some good points that are certainly major factors contributing to the health of people today. My comments earlier were regarding an aspect of the debate between MV and JB concerning the delivery of health services.
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180
OK
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Bare minimum is $2.7 million each for an MRI while some say $3 million for a reasonable unit? No worries, here’s 9 or 10 of them in just over 6 months of Gillard Labor.
And naturally they’re planning in the future to offshore billions of your dollars to the OS manufacturers and sellers of thin air derivatives. You know, the deserving Nigerian businessmen and Morgan Sachs crowd. It’s because they care and you selfish trogs don’t.
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observa:
AUD$ 40 million allocated by Australia to help the new Libyan rulers get an easy start.
All the oil money they will get at sooner or later makes our action look stupid.
What would 40 million do for Australian communities in need.
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You mean to tell me you’re not exactly Nostradumus’ daughter Mary?
There might just be a vacancy for you in Canberra at present 😉
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NO! The deal was:
[snip]
Funny thing about that free speech thingy; when you are too free with it you get to experience the free “rebuttals”.
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So it would seem that NATO involvement in Libya was not all about oil, nor was tearing up a perfectly good Timor Sea oil and gas Treaty with Indonesia to assist the East Timorese, although perhaps involvement in Afghanistan was all about a shortage of gravel and we’ll leave the international eggsperts to explain what we wanted in Kosovo. Suck on the Bush, Blair, Howard, etc Iraq Beacon of Light theory in the ME and elswhere now know-alls. And while you’re taking all that in think about exactly why countries like Australia should take their best and brightest away from the task of reforming and rebuilding their countries after we’ve sacrificed much blood and treasure to help clear the gangsters away for them. That’s when you’re not getting hysterical about children overboard whilst you fall stony silent about your children on the rocks preferred policy tradeoff. Suck on your policy champions in Canberra now you hypocritical compassionatte.
What should be obvious to all by now is you can’t run nations like Mother Theresa and the Nuns or the Salvos. There’s a logical fallacy of composition there, that all nuns and Salvos means no-one or no means to donate for the good works. Neither should we have the Divine Right of Elected Kings to anoint and dole out the Treasury coffers to every lost puppy cause, rent-seeker or political lackey that takes their fancy. We have to demand rational policy in aggregate, the level playing field and rule of law for all and the ethics of our political leaders to match, while we understand implicitly they can’t get a quart out of our pint pot. Good Govt has to eschew the personal emotional kneejerk for the hard-nosed overall and ongoing benefit of the majority. It can’t take away the incentive for all to get on with the business of life nor create moral hazard by underwriting the risk of doing so.
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“Around $US15 billion have been immediately unfrozen,” he said.
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Hi Observa
To start with I’m nobody’s daughter.
Then @186 I followed the second para.
The first one was full of ideas. 🙂
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observa @ 186
Couldn’t quite make out what you were on about. Watch this video and see what you reckon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJURNCOe6Ek
http://www.bit.ly/libyamusic
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An attack upon oil and gas is an attack on society itself. All humans need food, water and shelter. In order for society to exist we need to cheap, abundant energy to the list. A small drop in the amount of oil available to the world market would result in high oil prices. Higher oil prices would lead to inflation, war and financial turmoil. The result would be the death of needless millions. With the exception of a few eco loons, I know on no one who, in essence, wants to go camping for the rest of his or her life. Think about it: no running water, no electricity, no indoor plumbing, no cars, no roads and in short order no food. Without oil and gas society woulds grind to a halt and 80% of the world would be dead in two weeks. I have heard some say that we should not have a “blood for oil” foreign policy. The reality is that without oil there would be very little blood left to worry about.
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Mark D. #174
If you have private health insurance in Oz, you can generally get whatever medical treatment you want whenever you want. This is an intolerable state of affairs for our socialists who want everybody reduced to the lowet possible “one size fits all” state of medical treatment.
It’s all for our own good, you know./sarc off
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Bro Mark @ 191
SO your national heath care system allows private health insurance?
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You have no common sense. If peak oil had occurred then prices would have skyrocketed!
Great news! The sky is not falling and there is an abundance of everything we want or need. If only the eco loons would get the f*&% out of the way!
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Mark D. #192
Sorry mate, I missed your post.
Yes, there are quite a few private health insurers here in Oz. Costs me around $300 per month for high level cover. The missus and I are 60+ and you never know what can happen at this age. The young’uns can buy coverage appropriate for their own needs. Essentially, if you want doctor of choice you must insure yourself.
Hope that clears a bit up.
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