JoNova

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Freedom and hard borders are 96% popular — a third of West Australians want to secede

A telling incident in Western democracies about borders

Western Australia, WA. Map.The electoral power of strong borders is vastly underestimated.

Western Australia has hard borders at the moment, and no coronavirus — other than a few cases getting caught in the mandatory quarantine. That’s 2.5 million people who are almost living a normal life.  This is not to boast (we wish you could be here), but to point out how politically popular closed borders are in the current pandemic. The Premier is wildly popular, polling close to 90%. To all the people who said “states can’t close borders” the message is that it’s bonkers not to close borders. When the Commonwealth government joined the bizarre High Court push to force them open, the pushback was ferocious. A poll today showed that West Australians are fed up. The West Australian collected 245,000 signatories to a petition supporting the border closure.

Not only do 96% say the borders should stay shut, but when asked, a whopping 34% of Western Australians said the state should secede. How fast did it come to that?

Never, have I seen such vitriol towards the Commonwealth from WA. …the Commonwealth’s decision to effectively join hands with Palmer in the Federal and High courts risked making Morrison and the Federal Liberals public enemy No.1 here in WA. It beggars belief that the Morrison Government would ever let it get to this point, that the Federal Government would ever be part of any legal action to force WA to open its borders.

– Joe Spagnolo, Columnist, The West Australian (Paywalled)

Presumably that anger will be lower now that the Commonwealth has pulled out of one of the most stupid cases they were ever involved in.

WAxit: Exclusive new survey results show one in three West Australians wish to secede from the nation

The West Australian

Exclusive polling conducted by The West Australian showed 34 per cent of the 837 people surveyed this week support the move for WA to become a separate nation.

Close to three quarters of West Australians said that since the COVID-19 pandemic the Federal Government has put the needs of the eastern states ahead of West Australians. More than 35 per cent of those canvassed by Painted Dog Research strongly agreed with the statement that Canberra is too focused on the needs of the eastern states which has been to the detriment of WA.

Only last week Scott Morrison was saying he was sure WA would lose in the High Court and he had some mealy mouth words about doing it to protect us. But faced with a Liberal Party wipe out coming in WA elections, and the growing debacle of “open borders” on the East Coast, where infections are spreading, he finally backed down. The question is, what was he thinking in the first place?

Prime Minister Scott Morrison says Commonwealth will no longer participate in Clive Palmer’s court fight to open WA border

In a stunning development, the Prime Minister informed Premier Mark McGowan by letter that the Commonwealth would not continue to participate in Mr Palmer’s court fight to force WA to open up its interstate border.

“Having taken into account the changed state of the pandemic that has worsened since these matters were first brought to the High Court, the high level of concern regarding public health in the Western Australian community, and our desire to work with you cooperatively on a constitutionally sustainable way forward, I consider, on balance, that we must set aside the normal convention in these circumstances and not continue the Commonwealth’s participation in this case.”

For the record, every other state attorney general sided with WA (bar NSW which stayed neutral).

To understand what a huge backdown this was — consider that only a few days ago Morrison was using weasel words, strawmen and intimating he might withhold the Australian defense force:

Prime Minister Scott Morrison warns WA is in ‘weakened state’ due to hard border stance

Thursday July 30th, The West Australian.

Scott Morrison has warned the McGowan Government’s stance on WA’s border has opened it up to being put in a “weakened state” against the coronavirus.

He said WA needed to abide by the Constitution if it wanted to make the most of national resources like Australian Defence Force personnel. 

“It is the Commonwealth Government, in response to the request from the WA Premier is providing ADF resources to bolster their (WA’s) hotel quarantine,” he said. “The Constitution doesn’t provide for unilateral decisions to close borders, without there being a proper basis of advice. That’s our state of mind.”

Mr Morrison said the WA Government needed to open its border up to States like South Australia where “incidence of cases is lower than it is in Western Australia”.

Every single case in WA is an incoming traveller in hotel Quarantine — doesn’t Scott Morrison know anything?

Here’s a table that matters:

Let’s hope the debacles in NSW and Victoria haven’t send cases across the borders to spread in all the other states.

WA represents a peak case of border anger. It is more isolated, and has fewer divided families split across state lines. It’s not dependent on tourism dollars the way Queensland or Florida or Spain would be. It’s also easier to block the border when there aren’t twin towns straddling the line as there are on Vic-NSW-Qld borders. To put this is perspective, WA has an 1,874 km state line, but only two sealed roads across it. There are a few dirt tracks, but nothing a spotter plane couldn’t cover.

Meanwhile forty percent of the WA economy is made up of mining and gas extraction and that’s making a fortune at the moment as competitors are forced to close mining due to the virus.

For baffled foreign baffled readers, Clive Palmer was the theoretical-billionaire-coal-miner and politician who suddenly befriended Al Gore in 2014. He helped create the legal back-door for an Emissions Trading Scheme when Tony Abbott axed the Carbon tax.  Supposedly Palmer got knocked back when he asked to cross the border into WA, and enraged, he took his battle to the High Court, saying that closing borders was unconstitutional. But it now turns out Palmer didn’t even put in a serious application to enter WA. The three applications by his pilot were so dodgy, claiming Carlo Fingergi was a female, and with fake entries for his wife, the officials dismissed them as a hoax. McGowan has asked Palmer to listen to the people and dump the case.

Why did Scott Morrison push to help Palmer? Paul Murray, columnist in The West Australian thinks it probably has something to do with Palmer spending $60m on the last Federal Election, mostly against the Labor Party.

“No one had ever spent that much to influence an Australian election but political pundits remain unsure of its real effect.”

“While Palmer’s United Australia Party was singularly unsuccessful at the election, its preferences went 65.14 per cent to the Coalition, in contrast to just 54 per cent as the Palmer United Party in 2013 when he also favoured Coalition candidates in every seat.”

One of the reasons Western Australia isn’t opening borders to SA, the NT, Tas or QLD is only because it can’t be sure the others will maintain their walls. No one wants to outsource border management.

ADDENDUM: As a last sorry note to the saga, McGowan now unnecessarily claims he knocked back Palmer because he was going to come to support hydroxychoroquine “which was dangerous”. If so, McGowan’s kicking an own-goal. Palmer has bought millions of hydroxycholoroquine doses and donated them to a national stockpile. To disallow Palmer for this reason is a free speech failure on a grand scale (what was he thinking?) and also scientifically pathetic,  because there are many studies showing HCQ is almost certainly useful, especially if used early and in combination with zinc. There are also thousands of doctors who want to use it and swear by it.

“He’s accepted the Donald Trump view of hydroxychloroquine, which no-one with a medical degree, as far as I’m aware, accepts.”

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Rating: 8.9/10 (56 votes cast)
Freedom and hard borders are 96% popular -- a third of West Australians want to secede, 8.9 out of 10 based on 56 ratings

178 comments to Freedom and hard borders are 96% popular — a third of West Australians want to secede

  • #
    GD

    By all means secede from the rest of Australia. At least then the FIFO workers in the mining communities in the north west will be able to apply for a visa to visit their families in the other states.

    As it is, FIFO miners haven’t seen their families for six months due to McGowan’s lockdown laws.

    240

    • #
      glen Michel

      WA has always suffered from isolation from the Eastern States leading to a protective mind set leading to an inbuilt inferiority condition. Traditionally on the Commonwealth teat until the mining sector got going. A great divide between the SE and the rest.

      86

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      Is that ban set on state borders? I don’t think so.

      Section 92 of the Constitution prohibits interference in trade between states. Only a referendum can change that. Clive Palmer will win, unless he changes his mind.

      62

      • #

        I’m just fighting for democratic states rights over big centralized government. Do voters wishes matter?

        GD: McGowan has welcomed FIFO workers and their families to move to WA. FIFO workers with attitudes like Glen’s are free anytime to find a job in their home state and leave.

        612

        • #
          Graeme#4

          An interesting topic. I think we need to be careful in what we wish for, if the behaviour of certain city mayors in the U.S. is any guide, or Chairman Dan’s antics in Victoria. Should we think of ourselves as Australians first, then as citizens of a state, and then as residents of a location, or should it be the other way around?

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          • #

            Covid has reminded us that the bigger and more centralized the government, the more stupid it is.

            Which governments acted well against the virus?
            Some national/state governments ie Taiwan, and NZ, WA.

            Which governments spread infections and killed half a million people needlessly:
            The UN

            Which big government was utterly useless?
            The EU

            The USA was supposed to have State base power — Trump tried to give it to the states. But if the US states couldn’t close their own borders they were powerless to stop this, and the plan was doomed from the beginning.

            The Swamp and Dems and China are loving the failure in the US, and some Trump fans are helping to make it harder for Trump to win by working to spread virus which stops large stadium events, increases the mail-in voter ballots, and hurts the US economy.

            812

            • #
              Graeme#4

              You raise some very valid points Jo, but I don’t think that for this topic, we should extend the parameters outside of Australia. Naturally I agree 100% with your comments about the EU and the UN, but these are not the governments of any country, just organisations that claim to represent a group of companies.
              My passport says that I am an Australian, and that’s how I represent myself when overseas, not as a Sandgroper. I believe that what Lincoln was trying to do, unify a country, was in the end more important than the wishes of the individual states, and I think the words of the Gettysburg Address reinforce his view. We are Australians, and it’s important that we consider our nation as a whole and not as, pre-Federation, just an uncoordinated group of states.

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            • #
              OriginalSteve

              Jo…of interest

              Works in super dense slums…but our pollies maybe even denser….

              https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/07/what_made_asias_largest_slum_a_success_model_for_treating_covid19.html

              “Reports credit the huge turnaround to various factors. Most focused on Dharavi’s use of widespread testing and contact tracing. One is the use of an anti-malarial drug. But they ignored the policy most responsible. Indian doctors used hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) for prophylaxis (preventive) treatment — the same drug the American media have politicized.

              “In other words, HCQ is for anyone with the slightest chance of contracting COVID-19.

              “Not all are on board with its use. When doctors began using HCQ in Dharavi, anti-HCQ advocates approached the Bombay high court. But the court ruled in favor of HCQ:

              100

          • #
            tonyb

            I think of myself as English first , Then British then European.

            Never EUropean.

            To me being English and British are core identities until Sturgeon whines on then I tend to think we would be much better off without her expensive socialist state.

            Looking in from the outside I think of Australia, not at all of the individual states so I don’t know how much ‘nationalist’ feelings there is on the ground over there.

            30

        • #
          glen Michel

          Spent time over there in 1976 and during the ’91 Gulf war. Bloody hot summer that one to add to a locust plague that came down from Dongara. I wonder what Charlie Court would have thought about the present scene. Nah! I like WA but state parochial being what it is I can take note of what Jo says.

          10

  • #

    The idea of closed national or state borders would be too divisive for partisan politics not to choose opposing sides. If a US state did this, it would be tantamount to declaring civil war.

    There’s still too much illegal immigration for it to work nationally. The China virus only slowed it down for a few months. I’ve even noticed a surge of cases in border states like Texas, Arizona and California, especially in cities close to the border.

    100

    • #
      Bulldust

      It has already been war gamed. Trump winning in 2020, disputed result due to mail in ballots, west coast secedes, civil war possible result.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9pdj3GHWk&list=PLxQaod7tWvYJVbeQfmP-bsrLyVVal6Y_3

      It’s been funny to watch the morphing of self-professed centre-left Tim into a Trump 2020 voter given the hopelessness of the Democratic Party in the USA.

      31

      • #

        I predict more Democratic voters will flip since the Democratic party has suffered a slow painful death by being consumed with hate ever since Bush beat Gore. Their hate of Trump was the fatal blow and a manifestation of their fear of loosing control and facing the consequences of their bad choices. But like a zombie, it’s not quite dead and has been taken over by a squad of Progressive Marxists supported by anarchists and misguided revolutionaries hell bent on destroying freedom and all that depends on it.

        112

        • #

          And yet, if US state and national borders had been used to stop the WuFlu in March from getting out of New York etc (as I recommended, and Trump briefly suggested) — most other states in the US could be operating like normal now instead of wearing masks, facing restrictions, some with hospitals at the brink, and suffering a major economic hit.

          Borders are the cheapest way to stop viruses. I remain somewhat baffled at the conservatives who used to like strong borders but now argue that there is some right to infect other people in other states, even if those democratic states effectively vote to stay healthy.

          (The latter is not directed at you CO2isnotevil. It’s a general comment.)

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          • #
            Ted O'Brien.

            “Strong” National borders, Jo. Not state borders.

            If Victoria had drawn a “border” about 100 km from the CBD of Melbourne, that might have greatly reduced the pain and angst.

            80

          • #
            Graeme#4

            But the problem is that, once these state borders are in place, then there are no plans for their removal. And that to me is a major concern.

            42

            • #

              McGowan probably would have opened borders to other states like the NT, SA, Tas, and QLD if their leaders convinced him they would keep the border to states with infections very hard.

              His judgement was that they would let in the virus from Vic and NSW and therefore into WA.

              History shows he was right.

              Qld, bless them, are relying on people filling in forms honestly to protect their lives and economy.

              79

          • #

            A border shut down could have worked, but the only border whose shut down would have been effective would be Wuhan back in early January. Even shutting down NY in February wouldn’t have stopped the spread. The reason was that there was no patient zero in NY or the US, but many thousands of patient zeros entering through every international airport in the country during January and February. By the time it was noticed that NY was in trouble, it was too late and by mid-late March, California was already seeing over 1000 cases per day, mostly originating from people returning before the China travel ban kicked in using the dozen flights a day connecting Wuhan to SFO. NY ramped up more quickly with returnees from Italy and elsewhere, but mostly due to a governor who through executive action put the most vulnerable at a very high risk of being infected, greatly inflating the initial fatality rate and associated fear factor.

            50

            • #

              The US’s greatest arrogance was in keeping the international borders open, dooming itself to be the last place on Earth to defeat the virus. The Swamp, the UN, and the Open Borders lefties won that debate without even debating it, and conservatives dropped their strong border plan at a moments notice and got distracted fighting irrelevant side battles.

              Obviously, state borders are meaningless without an international one.

              Sorry to see our friends in the Great Nation of States suffering so needlessly.

              610

              • #

                Just to be clear, we’re not suffering because of the virus itself, but from the desire of Democratic politicians to defer any return to normal until after the election in order to hurt Trump’s re-election chances. The data shows that the virus is well under control. While cases are up, mostly due to far more testing, hospitalization rates are way down and the fatality rate is now about the same as influenza and continuing to drop. Despite constant admonishments from the left to follow the data, just like with climate science, any data that doesn’t fit the narrative is either ignored, denigrated or spun to mean something else.

                90

              • #

                Something that’s not widely reported is a very large fraction of the new positive tests are people in the general population (as opposed to hospital patients) who if they have any symptoms at all, are just minor ones.

                A disproportionate number of these positive tests are of people who never develop any symptoms at all. This means either there’s already widespread immunity or there’s a very high false positive test rate. Many of those testing positive take another test and are then declared negative after a week of angst waiting for new test results or the onset of symptoms.

                30

              • #
                Lucky

                co2isnotevil- 2.1.1.1.1 and 2.1.1.1.2
                yes but two points-
                - The test methods are disputed so results from the tests cannot be relied on.
                - The hostility to Trump explanation is correct of course but there is a human characteristic to avoid thought and follow authority. This nowadays is common in the political left, so who gets in first by capturing the media gets the attention of the sheep and the echoes from the tame (so-called) experts.

                00

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    So I get into a modern jetliner here in Sydney and fly several hours in a westerly direction and land in Perth, I’m assuming they have an airport.

    Then I find that they have locked the borders.

    I’m petrified that I’ll wake up from this nightmare and find that it’s real.

    What a dumb irrelevant idea, but local politicians are no doubt going to wring every last vote they can get from it.

    254

    • #
      TedM

      Neither side of politics here in WA considers secession to be a practical or economically sound idea. Some decades ago (about 5) when WA was producing over 50% of the nations export income, the economic argument may have seemed logical to some. The current support for secession is an emotional response to the Feds trying to interfere in the way our Premier is managing the covid issue.

      I have always voted for one party at federal elections, but at state elections I have been more persuaded by local issues and the calibre of the candidates. Most of my friends vote LNP, but they all to a man (generic use of the word man) support the way that our labor premier has handled the covid issue.

      41

      • #
        TedM

        One exception to the support of WA premier: “He’s accepted the Donald Trump view of hydroxychloroquine, which no-one with a medical degree, as far as I’m aware, accepts.”

        On this issue Mark McGowan knows absolutely zero. Just shows the power of the media and left leaning medical authorities to mislead our leaders.

        130

      • #
        Graeme#4

        WA folks supporting secession would do well to remember that for a long while WA was reliant on financial support from other more prosperous states, and it could return to this situation if WA stops making money out of its exports.

        93

        • #
          el gordo

          Its not going to run out of iron ore, so the state finances are secure. Talk of going out on their own is not far fetched, but extremely unlikely.

          Perth has a population of 2 million and about a third of them were born outside Australia, with expats from Britain leading the charge.

          23

        • #
          TedM

          This only applies to taxation, not to export income. The eastern states soaked much of WA’s export income in the 1960′s and 1970′s and more.

          20

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Graeme,
          they still have that Chinese Airport up in the North: that would be great for bringing tourists in.

          20

          • #
            Graeme#4

            Ah, that Chinese airport again. I’m now wondering which one – think there are now two owned by the Chinese. This has never been a subject of discussion here in the West, given that most of the major industrial companies have overseas foreign ownership. RTIO I think is 20% owned by the Chinese.
            Besides, Chinese tourists don’t want to fly into those airports. They come into Perth, then either go down south, fly up north or hire a car and drive north.

            20

          • #
            Chris

            There are two Chinese owned airports in WA. One south east of Port Preston in the Pilbara, this is at the mine that Clive Palmer owned . The runaway has been extended and the airport can now support quite large planes. The second airport is at Merridan and Mark McGowan sold the Control Tower to the Chinese in 2018, which means they have complete control of this airport. The question is – can the Chinese now fly in and out of Australia at their leisure without going through official check points like customs? Merridan is about three hours from Perth by car.

            40

  • #
    mareeS

    Our son works FIFO from Perth, we live in the East. We haven’t seen him since Christmas. Locked borders are deeply wrong in Australia.

    264

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      That’s a crazy situation caused by political indifference and ignorance.

      They are incapable of implementing functional quarantine and so go for the big media fix: lockdown.

      Our public service has been so corrupted in recent decades that handling the basics like this current situation is just beyond them.

      271

      • #

        mereeS — and the tragedy is we opened all the borders in the wrong order. By opening the most infected states first we spread the virus.

        If we had opened the zero-virus states first we could have spread a safe travel bubble.

        A hard border either around Melbourne or Victoria in June could have meant right now that nearly every state in Australia was flying to other states. And a hard border around Victoria would have meant no lockdown at all in Melbourne at the moment.

        Borders = freedom from masks and lockdowns.

        I don’t know why so many people like lockdowns ;-)

        99

  • #

    Oh dear, Jo. You’re so good on almost everything else, but on this Covid thing you’ve really gone to the dark side.

    In what universe is it “almost living a normal life” to be prevented from visiting anywhere, or have anyone from anywhere else visit you? Let alone zero business travel – in or out.

    This dooomed chase after eradication has resulted in complete isolation from the rest of the world (and now the rest of the country) which in the long term will be far more harmful than the virus.

    Have you seen the latest Swedish case (*cases*, not deaths) numbers? Negligible, and rapidly trending to zero.

    455

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Agree.
      Sometimes you can be too close to the problem and dismiss other factors.

      311

      • #

        Living a normal life = sport, dinners, schools, pubs, football (with crowds). We can hold birthday parties for our kids, and even invite their grandparents.

        Somehow we survive without international holidays.

        511

        • #
        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Hi Jo, not sure how that comment relates to what I’ve been saying across several posts.

          10

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            The concept of quarantine has been around for several thousand years and was well understood, until the advent of this current media fog.

            The progression of this Virus in places like New York and Italy has shown what happens when populations become densely packed and when persons of indeterminate health and documentation float through the society as an unknown risk.

            I believe that both OS and I would agree that this is a horrible, deadly virus: no doubt.

            The problem I have is that politicians have failed to isolate the infected and to test the potentially infected so that the spread of the virus has been largely, in Australia, a case of disgraceful management by our leaders.

            They are currently trying to divert attention from the cruise ship event and other management failures by using a high publicity “crushing lockdown” of states.

            The stupid, help a friend no doubt, “hotel quarantine” is surely a joke.

            If you wanted to invent a CV19 Incubator you sure have a good guide there.

            Unfortunately, at the moment, we have No functioning quarantine system and the token border and business lockdowns.

            The human cost of this lockdown, plus failure to control international borders is devastating and too many are sitting at home twiddling their thumbs as a lifetime of work and saving goes down the drain: for what?

            Possibly Steve would agree with me that in Australia we need;

            1. Strict, isolated quarantine of the infected and potentially infected.
            2. Temperature screening as a minimum at all large venues.
            3. Proper border control with all travelers required to produce certification that they were CV19 free immediately before traveling.
            4. In normal life adopt sensible habits of hygiene and separation from others. Use masks.

            Had a better government approach been used there would have been no need to completely destroy our nation’s social base.

            And then there’s the Data, but maybe later.

            There was a Better Way, a way that was less destructive, but what could you expect from a nation which over several decades has destroyed its education system and disincentivised it’s work force with free money social security payouts.

            Once a great nation.

            KK

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        • #
          Alan

          Hey travelling WA’s north at the moment and you wouldn’t know there was a pandemic on. The mining/O&G industries up here
          are bustling as are the hospitality businesses and hard to get into a caravan park without well advanced bookings. Didn’t vote for McGowan but think he is doing what’s required

          12

    • #
      • #
        Kalm Keith

        I agree totally, we should not follow any other country.

        All I’m asking is that the government properly assess the situation, devise a plan and implement it.

        All they have done since day one is to run around in circles while keeping an eye on the media trends/advice.

        Australia is not New York, or Italy and we deserve an Australian made solution that fits.

        The shutting down of the national economy, or a big part of it has caused more damage than the Virus itself.

        KK

        240

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          “The shutting down of the national economy, or a big part of it has caused more damage than the Virus itself.”

          Correct. And that appears to be the plan.

          180

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        I don’t read The Conversation since they blackballed me from comments. I knew they had long before they announced that “deplatforming” people was part of their modus operandi.

        A pity, because not all of their publication was rubbish. However that may have changed too since they banned me.

        From memory, I think it happened after I tried to draw their attention to Sydney’s Fort Denison tide gauge.

        80

      • #
        peter

        Sweden had very open borders to begin with and paid little attention to nursing home security. Together with a large refugee population from Syria, Africa and eastern Europe who were people who tended to live multigeneration (children/parents/grandparents)in their homes much more than Swedes. They were also very huggy huggy, kissy kissy unlike the cool Scandinavians. All of that exploded initial infection and death rates. But now those rates are all on the decline. Their death rate has shown a steady decline for the last four months. Deaths for July 31 in Sweden were ZERO! Again, the facts destroy a good anti-Sweden story.

        160

    • #
      PeterS

      Well said Mike. The destruction of people’s jobs and small businesses appears to be the “order” of the day.

      281

    • #
      el gordo

      Where do I sign up for the dark side? West of the Great Divide we are looking good as a quarry and Covid free tourist destination.

      ‘Despite an increase in coronavirus across the state, there is still only one active case in the Western NSW Local Health District. The case was detected in Orange on Friday with that person and 10 close contacts now in isolation.’ Western Advocate

      66

    • #
      Brenda Spence

      Sorry MM but Joy is correct. Life is pretty normal here in WA. If it was the right thing to do to close our international borders, why is it wrong to close state borders? All the states who did so are in a better place than those who did not. Our states are seperate in that are individually governed and have a right to manage it in the way it sees fit. It was so obvious from the start that keeping the virus out was the way to go.

      West Aussies did the right thing and are reaping the rewards.

      We are caravanning in the North of the State along with thousands of others and the regions are loving the business (although they are having trouble getting staff).

      If it was one rule for all, we would be inthe same miserable boat as Victoria.
      Just make sure you get a good govt whatever flavour.

      The problems are only temporary! Everyone talks as though this is final.

      98

      • #
        Brenda Spence

        Sorry, I mean Jo. ( no ability to edit).

        31

      • #
        Graeme#4

        Heading down south WA in a couple of days for a week in the beautiful forests, enjoying the wineries and a few bush walks. But we have had to book everywhere – it’s unusually very busy down there this year. The small country towns are doing a roaring trade.

        60

        • #

          Graeme #4: Yes, I know people who fly to ski trips in Japan and the French Riviera who are doing their first ever holidays in Broome this year.

          It’s not such a dreadful thing that some West Australians are finally seeing their own state. I hear things are booking out.

          58

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Hi Brenda, maybe you should compare the population density in WA with that of New York.
        That might tell you something about viri.

        40

        • #
          Graeme#4

          Even if you adjusted WA’s population to the same as NY, WA still wouldn’t have anywhere near the same amount of CV cases or deaths as NY.

          41

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Hi Graeme,
            What I was suggesting was that population density in WA is low while that of New York is high.
            New York should therefore have a higher rate of virus infection. I wonder if this is the case.

            Some comments suggest that rural Victoria has few CV19 cases by contrast with densely populated Melbourne.

            60

  • #
    Ursus Augustus

    Cecede eh? Lets see WA pay for its own defence force to keep God only knows who out of that 1/3 the continent with their 2.5 million people although the place would be sold off to the Chinese, the Indians, the Yanks, the Russians and the Europeans in a few years. Twiggy Forrest and co would broker the deal in an instant. Peppy Grove, Mossie Park, Dalkeith etc would be rebuilt with minature Taj Mahuls, Forbidden Cities, Kremlins etc as the world’s corrupt elite moved in en masse. They could have a whole new industry sector in the private jet sector.

    There was always an isolationist fringe in WA. The Nullabor on one side, the Indian Ocean on the other and the Southern Ocean below isolates them not just from ‘Over East’ but from reality big time. All those minerals, oil and gas in the ground just inflates their sense of self importance.

    Oh and for the record I was Perth born and bred. Suffice to say I gave the place the bird and got out decades ago.

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      How will WA pay?
      10% of Australia’s population produces 41% of Australian national exports.

      WA total exports $129m pa.
      NSW total exports $47m
      Vic total exports $26m

      Funny how people say they support small government but whinge a bitter pill when others want to decide their own fate.

      Morrison was threatening to withdraw the defence force from WA and we are supposed to still pay and say “thanks”?

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      Chris

      WA is already on its own. Perth is the most isolated capital city in the world, and where are our military forces if someone chose to attack our off shore gas and mining infrastructure? Not here! I know the SAS is good, but I don’t believe they could defend WA on their own. Most of our fresh water is in the Kimberley and would be vulnerable to a very easy take over. The Indonesians could be here for a month before anyone in the eastern states knew. Oh another thing. If the Indonesians came they would be fighting with the Chinese over water in the Kimberley.

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        el gordo

        “There was a study done in Western Australia a few years ago, where they looked at pumping water from the Kimberley down to Perth, and they looked at a whole range of options,” Mr Petheram said.

        “They looked at pumping, they looked at canals, they looked at shipping the water down, they looked at towing the water down in great big balloons behind boats, they looked at desalinisation.

        “And of all the options, pumping and canals were by far the most expensive.”

        ABC

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    “It is of course true that masks don’t work perfectly, that they don’t replace hand-washing and social distancing, and that they work better if they fit properly.

    However, even surgical masks protect a bit more than not wearing masks at all.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html

    >> HCQ may not be perfect, but, it is better than not using it at all.

    But, the Australian government won’t use it.

    Instead, it chooses the UN/W.H.O path of death and “Get Trump” economic destructive lockdowns.

    Payback is not going to be pretty, but, it will be deserved.

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    • #
      Peter C

      HCQ may not be perfect, but, it is better than not using it at all.

      Doherty Institute does not agree! I sent them this email:

      Termination of Hydroxychloroquine Trial.

      Dear Professor Tong,

      It was disappointing to read that the Doherty Institute has cancelled the hydroxychloroquine arm of the ASCOT (Covid) Trial. You seem to be one of the principal investigators.
      “We have made this decision based on the reports of the UK study, plus growing evidence from several smaller studies showing hydroxychloroquine and lopinavir/ritonavir are not effective in treating COVID-19,” Associate Professor Tong said.

      Perhaps it was the only thing to do. I agree that some hospital studies have not shown effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine. They started treatment late and with high dose and without supplementary zinc (similar to the ASCOT proposal).

      The trial seems to have been mis-conceived from the start. A multicentre Hospital based trial cannot start treatment early in the illness. Early intervention would likely require the involvement of primary care physicians (General Practitioners) who could start and monitor treatment from soon after the onset of symptoms.

      It was an opportunity missed which is a real shame.

      Perhaps as a principal investigator you could answer some of the questions which I have already put to Dr Naomi Perry (above).

      In case you missed them there are some studies which show potential effectiveness for Hydroxychloroquine:
      1. https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext
      2. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.09.20116806v2
      3. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.02.20080036v1
      4 . https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202007.0025/v1

      Yours Sincerely

      Jo helped as I was searching for two of the references at the end. Lets see what I get back.

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      • #

        Concerning information getting out from yr coteries, yr bureaucracies, yr Inquisition, necessitating yr ‘Noble’ Lie or at least yr ‘Noble’ Prevarications, truth to data or promising test case is yr first casualty.

        Here’s a letter from Galileo to a friend…

        Andrea my dear friend,

        As I am an old man and think often of the past, I write secretly this letter to you concerning past events and our final meeting, for we will not meet again. I hope you may receive this letter for I wish to say more concerning our last conversation.

        You have been as dear to me as a son, Andrea, and more, for you have been my student, then companion, in the great adventure we embarked on together, a scientific revolution no less, and worthy of personal sacrifice. I well remember the personal sacrifice you made, Andrea, as a small boy sent to purchase the lens for our new telescope, leaving your winter coat as payment. You had a right to expect, later, that i would do as much. I understood your reluctance to meet with me this year in my house imprisonment. I understood your disappointment by my betrayal of our highest principles to maintain the truth of the science we had learned, testing Copernicus’ theory through observation by means of the telescope. You recognised that I should have stood firm when shown the Inquisitions’s instruments of torture, but I was weak. I failed to set the example of integrity to scientific endeavour, that our scientific revolution required. I have held it back when I should have been its public supporter by example. And so the people wonder who they can trust, where lies the reality concerning Ptolemy’s and Copernicus’ theories.

        You and I, Andrea, will never forget our first sight of the universe as no one before us had ever seen it. We saw what the Church wishes to conceal from the common people, not a universe of Christian dogma, with God’s eye fixed firmly on his people, obedient in their poverty, to his will and to His Church, but a small planet revolving round the sun!

        When I entrusted you, with my Discoursi written at night, in secret, you were ready to forgive me. “Oh,’ you said, ‘now I know why you were prepared to sacrifice your honour, my dear Galileo. You were planning to write this work documenting your discoveries and offer it to the world.’ Do not believe so, dear friend, for this was not so, and even had this been my plan, in pursuing scientific investigation, where ‘truth’ is your beacon, the ends cannot justify the means.

        And so, dear partner in science, I bid you good-bye. Though I have failed the great revolution in science of which I was a part, you and others must not. Though I have held back its progress, yet it cannot be stopped. You and others will carry on this great intellectual enterprise.

        Galileo.

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    Just Thinkin'

    Australia is ruled by The New World Order…

    Apart from Victoriastan…..that’s ruled from China…

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    • #
      el gordo

      The new world order is a state of mind and comrade Dan had already book his seat on the belt and road, but the pandemic has brought the tent down on those ambitions.

      If we assume there is no silver bullet then those living in Sydney and Melbourne will be left to stew in their own juices, while the rest of Australia returns to normalcy around November.

      House prices are falling moderately at the moment, but a crash should be considered a possibility.

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      • #
        Serp

        November eh, and there was I seeing no way out of this ongoing international recycling of infection for probably a decade and considering our industrious personal lives ended.

        On the main topic, as a person born in WA who was transported to Victoria as a child, I was always mystified by the discovery that ES (eastern states) people were not wicked after all.

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Do face masks work?

    Japan with ~100% face mask adherence, and ‘culturally ingrained social distancing’ is on the cusp of a serious outbreak …

    Second wave of coronavirus in Asia prompts fresh lockdowns

    “Japan has avoided mass infections but a record surge in cases during the past week in Tokyo and other urban centres has experts worried the country faces a second wave.”

    https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/second-wave-of-coronavirus-in-asia-prompts-fresh-lockdowns/articleshow/77206267.cms

    The history behind Japan’s love of face masks
    Are face masks effective in the fight against COVID-19?
    The nation’s experience with such products throughout history may provide some clues
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/07/04/national/science-health/japans-history-wearing-masks-coronavirus/

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      OriginalSteve

      The narrative in Victoria is starting to unravel, so now you will hear the Establishment puppets starting to parrot their owners instructions about making masks ( dog leashes ) compulsory.

      Just like the global warming narrative fell apart, people are waking up that covid isnt actually a major problem, unless you’re elderly.

      The figures I have provided multiple time prove its pile of hoey, so the Establishment is panicking and doubling down on the lie. They *love* control, so if they can
      put you on a “dog leash” and promise one day, if you’re a really good boy ( roll over, play dead, fetch the stick….) they will let you have your freedoms back.

      They never will return freedoms, not at least quickly.

      Its like “1984″ …there are always wars in some distant land that require “sacrifices”…and of course then they just jerk us around for as long as they like until peopel demand an end to it all….like in Germany…

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      Greg Cavanagh

      Face masks don’t work, the virus is too small and passes between the fibres. Even the best medical masks do not work. They are 30% effective at best, but time is against you, you will eventually get the virus no matter what.

      The real news coming out of the US is that 60% of the people who test positive to the virus never new they even had it.

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    John F. Hultquist

    The strategy of lock-down and wait for the virus to degrade to harmless assumes that everyone everywhere could self-isolate for 3 weeks so that the virus would then exist nowhere. This cannot happen because many people would be out of food and water in 3 days, and societal systems would begin to fail. Electrical power supply {one example} and ill people {one example} need attention. Food, medicines, and parts of many types need to be made, loaded, transported, unloaded, and distributed – many sources and many destinations. All of this cannot be stopped for 3+ weeks everywhere.
    It has been 7 months or maybe 10 since the virus started to spread. It will continue to spread.
    However, a lot of the early bad decisions have been recognized, with concomitant deaths of the most susceptible. Better outcomes are increasing, even while the number infected grows.

    A second ‘however’: Where I live – Washington State, USA – the State instituted lock down continues, and continues to crush people, business, and institutions. The cascade of follow-on destruction is increasing apparent, and won’t be undone.
    The politicians, officials, media, and elites are the least impacted. They should be relieved of 85% of their wealth and made as poor as those they have ruined. Even as the ruining continues into the distant hazy future.
    Panic2020 is a needless tragedy.

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      “The politicians, officials, media, and elites are the least impacted”.

      That’s the key to understanding this catastrophe.
      A minor disease outbreak IN AUSTRALIA has been badly managed because They can’t see what’s happening and don’t want to know.

      They are far enough away to not hear the screams of those being crushed by their ugliness.

      Quarantine was understood two thousand years ago but for some reason can’t be done correctly in 2020.

      Public Service Expertise is a joke.

      KK

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    David Maddison

    Sadly, if appropriate testing and treatment using the Zelenko protocol (*EXACTLY AS HE SPECIFIED*) of HCQ for prophylaxis or treatment was implemented with the 32 million doses of the drug already kindly provided by Clive Palmer as a donation to the Australian people and now apparently rotting in a government stockpile were used, the virus could be almost extinguished within days. I would bet my life on it.

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    • #
      Annie

      Manslaughter charges coming up when people finally wake up to the blameworthy refusal to sanction the use of HCQ?

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      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        Australians are way too passive for that eventuality. That’s one of the reasons why our politicians do whatever they please, it’ll cause a bit of media hype for a week, then we’re back on our heads.

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      • #
        Analitik

        Starting with one Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus

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    Ian1946

    I think you would get a similar result in Queensland although we are more reliant on tourism than WA.

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  • #
    Another Ian

    Worth repeating here IMO

    “Graeme#4
    August 3, 2020 at 8:31 pm · Reply

    Western Australia’s esteemed Premier Mark McGowan just said on TV that HCQ doesn’t work and would never be approved by any medical officer. WA’s closed state border seems to also have limited his access to outside news updates.”

    http://joannenova.com.au/2020/08/weekend-unthreaded-320/#comment-2351892

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      Serp

      Yeah, well is this a disingenuous response intended to cloak the fact that HCQ with zinc is a prophylactic against having to endure the staged onset of the virus at which time nobody makes the claim HCQ would be useful?

      It’s all of a piece with the CCP owned Big Pharma planning to make multiple trillions of dollars from spurious vaccines already stockpiled. Your sad lefty CMO types are more than happy to let the WHO and the IPCC do their thinking for them and advise their paralytic governments accordingly.

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  • #
    David Maddison

    A Yale epidemiologist describes the war against HCQ.

    The war against HCQ.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-harvey-risch-on-the-war-against-hydroxychloroquine/vi-BB16ZeJ1

    Notice to any activists against HCQ. You should and might get sued for your actions.

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      Graeme#4

      Thanks for all the HCQ reports David. But It’s impossible to discuss HCQ usage with anybody as it has become so politicised.

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  • #
    Another Ian

    Not WA but

    “Think it my way or else – - ”

    “Phys.org: “Climate change and COVID-19: The denial playbook is the same” ”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/08/03/phys-org-climate-change-and-covid-19-the-denial-playbook-is-the-same/

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    Richard Ilfeld

    Like Covid, TDS seems to be a world wide malady.

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    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      Not quite.

      When the virus first hit the news, it was the reaction by China that shocked everyone. They shut down a town of 11 million people and arrested anyone who dared to poke their head out the window.

      Then the virus started spreading around the world. Nobody knew what to expect, but took China’s cue as a statement of seriousness.

      It was quickly known that this corona virus was far more contagious than anything else, so panic started. The media hyped it.

      Videos coming out of china of people convulsing on the train and in voyeurs and on the streets scared the hell out of us.

      There was plenty of reason to be scared at the time.

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      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        note: voyeurs = foyers.

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      • #
        DOC

        Greg (#15.1) Therein lies the tale . It raises the question that most official
        offices don’t want to think about. If China was so aware of the seriousness of the
        virus, why did it shut down massively inside China in infectious areas but still kept
        open its flights of people around the world? Why were nations that blocked those flights
        accused of being racist? Why did the WHO refuse to acknowledge the seriousness of COVID-19?
        It ‘knew’ there was little hope historically of getting a vaccine to work against this class
        of virus and it knew there was no known accepted medical treatment.

        China and the WHO are truly pariahs against international order and economics. There must
        come a time when the question that this was in effect a biological weapons strike must be
        debated, because the outcome is so universally destructive and the CCP is not noted for
        its tolerance of Human Rights nor the value of lives, even of its own people.

        For those saying this virus is really nothing, look around the world at the universal
        economic and social outcomes and tell me it is nothing. If the entire world shut down for
        6 weeks then the argument it’s controllable might have a basis. Reality is, that was never
        going to happen. The world is going to have rolling outbreaks like the present until either
        it is proven there is worthwhile immunity for a long enough period to be useful, or there is
        a vaccine or effective drug treatment. There was not the same mobility of people around the world
        with past major pandemics. As it is now, we will continue having international rolling
        outbreaks such that, just as a nation opens up it gets knocked down again from outside. The
        same thing happens with each business, especially when controlling actions by government are
        lifted. What business – look at AFL – can survive such recurrent cycles of opening and closing.
        As for the hospital system, Victoria is already murmuring its getting worrisome and the US has
        the same problems as States tried to open up. When, or if, the Health system does become threatened in Victoria, in the USA or Timbuktu, or anywhere control measures are prematurely lifted, what even more draconian measures would then have to be introduced? What happens to the economy then?

        In the modern world, States and Nations are interdependent. None are equipped to do everything.
        Import and export are essential. Closed borders, internal and external cannot be permanent and that is the Achilles Heel in the fight to control this virus. Trade controls wealth and wealth
        gives the nation the goodies of life. While the virus exists and nations react to outbreaks,
        economies are going to suffer whether we like it or not. The tenuous nature of open and closed
        borders has been referred to in entries on this topic here, but sometime they will have to be opened. Travelling one’s State is currently a short term comforting option, but in reality solves
        nothing except giving us a breather before we are forced to face a bleak and difficult future
        if the chips don’t fall our way. Note also, our Defence also depends on our wealth continuing.
        So I don’t see in any way the effects of this virus are simplistically easy, nor currently how overcoming it will have to be anything but evolutionary.

        The worst part of the official reactions to me is to see how small-mindedly closed and political are some of the decisions where hatred of a President seems to override consideration of treatments that practical observations of frontline staff throw up as effective measures. As
        an epidemiologist on CNN said today – while the lay interviewer endeavoured to shut him down and
        speak over him – it is actually unusual in emergent situations like an epidemic that treatments
        tried have had to wait full clinical trials before application. Then time is wasted by doing trials which ignore the methodology used for the treatment being tested and measures erroneous
        outcomes which were never the reason the treatment was utilised in the first place, or it was
        applied at different stages and ages for the recommendation.

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  • #
    TdeF

    This is based on a complete misunderstanding. Western Australia is already seperate!

    Australia is a Federation, which is why borders still exist. And all state functions are still controlled by the Premier and each state has a Governor. The entire legal systems are different, different laws controlled by individual parliaments. Everything is in place! In fact it already borders on the absurd in duplication.

    Education, health, police, roads and until recently rail were state. There is no longer National airline. And Australia Post is not government. Nor are the banks. What does secede mean? We did remove the border posts collecting state taxes, say at Birdsville. And the head of state in each state is an Australian as is the head of the Federation, the Governor General in Canberra.

    The Federal Police were invented to act as a bodyguard for Billy Hughes. National crimes are to do with the same issues like immigration and defence, state secrets, espionage, customs.

    As in the United States of America, it is the United States, not America.

    The only things shared are international. Customs, defence, currency and trade. Thanks to the growth in real wages in income tax, a phenomenon of the 20th century from a time when people were paid almost nothing. And the Federation does receive most of the cash but it is supposed to be handed out equally without favor under the Federation document, the Constitution. Under John Howard, the States ceded the Sales taxes and other taxes to the Federation with the GST. And such arrangements greatly favor the smaller states who are vastly over represented in the Senate. A Tasmanian senator has 16x the power of a Victorian senator.

    There is absolutely no need to secede. It is meaningless in practice.

    What more would be obtained? A West Australian army, navy, airforce, interstate customs, currency? For two million people? On the basis of income alone, the Pilbara would secede from Western Australia. What does Perth actually do to earn money? Run a FIFO service? That could be done as easily from Indonesia or Singapore. And I am sorry to see the end of the Principality of Hutt. It was fun.

    And as borders demonstrate, it is entirely up to (the idiocy of) each Premier how we respond to this virus. Daniel Andrews and then the Ruby Princess for example. Scott Morrison can only fume.

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      TdeF

      If WA has a beef with wealth distribution, it is with South Australia which is anti mining, anti coal and almost entirely public service and so demands twice the GST per capita of WA. And Victoria under Daniel Andrews is doing its best to shut down coal, ban gas, ban mining and lock up the forests and the high country and even ban tourists climbing rocks while private interests are building a huge terminal near Geelong to import gas at record prices. And like South Australia, handing out hundreds of millions in hidden subsidies to keep smelters going because they have to pretend to make a profit. What part of that makes sense to anyone except Comrade Dan.

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    • #
      TdeF

      And in passing, their own Criminal law. A solicitor or barrister can only practice in one state. And each state has the full three levels of Magistrate’s court, County Court and Supreme court. However if it wasn’t for the High Court in Canberra, innocent prisoner Cardinal George Pell would still be in jail, despite the complete lack of evidence or witnesses. Convicted on the statements of one man and the opinions of ABC staff. And we hope Dr. Peter Ridd gets his fair settlement overturned by the Supreme court of Queensland. Both are Labor states and both verdicts suit their dominant political caste.

      There is a real case for eliminating the massive duplication and cost in having four levels of government, not secession.

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    • #
      Rob Kennedy

      Secession has had a good run in W.A. with the Pricipality of Hutt, but sadly they have caved in after a glorious 50 year reign.
      https://www.watoday.com.au/national/end-of-an-empire-hutt-river-to-rejoin-australia-after-50-years-20200803-p55i1u.html

      Would Prince Graeme be for or against W.A. secession?

      20

      • #
        TdeF

        He would be against it. The point of seceding is that you hope to have your cake and eat it too, the protection of the state but the independence of your own kingdom and he was the king, presumably.

        There is also a certain critical size for secession. And physical separation is a big requirement which the Hutt river kingdom did not have, not Monaco or Lichenstein or San Marino or Andorra or Luxembourg or the Vatican city. These are fantasy places which get all their supplies from outside the kingdom, food, electricity etc. Monaco was made viable as a tax dodge, then a casino town, funded initially by the Germans. The Formula 1 race was a winner too and they still do not pay for the race as they invented it.

        Personally, like Monaco, the Isle of Mann and Jersey also appeal, mainly as tax dodges. The average age is very high, stuffed with rich retirees. And I note the percentage of the population lost to Wuhan flu.

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        • #
          TdeF

          Actually California could secede. After all it is one of the world’s biggest economies. And half the population is Spanish speaking. We would see New Spain reconstituted. Of course with the social structure, drugs, violence and mayhem of Mexico, the people might not be happy. Without California, President Trump would also have won the popular vote.

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    • #
      Betty Luks

      I have looked through most of the comments up to yours TdeF and not found one about the role of the money system and the huge financial debt burdens all nations now struggle under – including Australia of course.

      Yes, the powers that be have physically closed the borders of the various states but what about ‘the enemy within’?

      History is replete with stories of ancient nations with international trade and commerce booming – and then collapsing over a period of years.

      West Australia is part of the Money Economy – and yet how many West Australians understand just what that really means?

      Historically it was known figuratively as “The Great Harlot”- it was and is ‘the prostitution of the role of money in the market place’.

      The fall of Roman civilisation with its world-wide trade and commerce was predicted and written about around 100AD, finally collapsing around 500AD. The situation was/is very similar to ours today.

      Best summed up in a paraphrased version from the Book of Revelation:

      “The Grand Madam of Babylon was drunk and in maudlin mood. She sat on her throne beside the meeting-place of the abundant waters from many rivers.

      All the peoples, all nations of every language congregated here in submissive obeisance to her. All the kings and rulers of the world had come to her and committed fornication with her…

      There had been a time when the princes of the earth were her traders and all nations under her spell. Now in her nightmare she was being doubly repaid in her own coin for all that she had exacted unjustly from others…

      No more were craftsmen in her employ, no more grinding at her mill,no lights, no voices of newlyweds… She was being made to drink a double dose of her own poisonous mixture.”

      That is part of our continuous history and The Grand Madam can be traced back to at least the Sumerian times. The Grand Madam was also once known as Mammon, that is, Money.

      Money began as a ‘means to and end’ not ‘an end in itself’. We have mistaken a means for an end – big trouble lies ahead.

      40

      • #
        TdeF

        Money is an amazing thing. For most of the history of the world, no one had any money. They traded chickens and favors. Animal skins for trinkets and metal, pots, ivory, pretty things. At home people were as much as possible self sufficient. They had to be. Families, villages. Money was an invention, largely for trade.

        The story of the trading Hanseatic league is amazing, over 300 cities.

        And the invention of government debt to the people, something imported to England by the conquering Dutch under William and Mary, the bloodless Glorious Revolution by invitation in 1688. (not in Ireland where the battle of the Boyne was terrible). Nevertheless, Government bonds, a stock exchange, bank bonds were revolutionary and the King and Queen were paid employees at last, on the list. It changed Britain completely and they could finally afford the ships to rule the high seas and trade and spread their unique form of democracy.

        And these Dutch masters of money presumably learned the business of debt from their Jewish citizens who had fled the Inquisition in Spain after 1492. The Jews were the masters of debt, money, interest rate and were hated for it, but what young couple can afford a house and car without a mortgage? Jews were banned from England for nearly 400 years up to Cromwell in 1650. Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice is about as anti Semitic a story as ever told. But these very clever people had a clear idea of how to make money in a world which runs on debt. Interest rates are still anaethema to Isl*mists, so they have had to invent a way around it.

        So yes, it all traces back to Babylon and formation of the Jews as an enslaved people for 50 years, a time when the Torah was written and incorporated stories like the Great Flood of Noah, presumably about the flooding of the Black Sea around 5300BC.

        Government debt however is a mysterious thing. The Japanese government has very high debt but most of it is to their own people, which doesn’t count. The Australian Labor party and Green party are in favor of ultra high debt without limit, but this is overseas to countries like China, America, Britain, Germany. That is a very different thing. Debt to your own people is very inflationary but it is a way of dealing with short term problems. The government keeps you going and you pay taxes but ultimately paper is worthless in itself. It’s a concept, not gold.

        What is really good about Australia today is that our primary industries are in boom. The service industries like Education and the Arts and elective spending in shopping centres not so good. I expect petrol sales are way down too. And car sales, which is good as we do not make them.

        And the impact of NOT exporting 1 million Australians a month overseas, 12 million a year means perhaps $100Billion of hard currency stays in the country. That’s great.

        Plus people are drawing down on their superannuation and really annoying the unions who love all the power and money, other people’s money.

        So when we look back on this time, people will be amazed that we are not falling apart and might come out of this well. If the government debt is not overseas. And it has nothing to do with the exchange rate which is set by what you have to sell and whether people have to buy it.

        And in an Australia where cash buying no long exists and you can must buy your coffee by waving your phone or using a piece of plastic which you keep. This was not possible in January. It is a profound change, like WiChat in China. Everything on the phone.

        And there are people who are just terrified of debt, even though everyone has a lot of it. So the price of gold is high today. But until debt was commonplace, people had nothing. And therefore there was nothing to buy. Governments and debt. Printing money. It’s a short term fix. Mammon has nothing to do with it. Like a blind man at an orgy. We just have to feel our way.

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        • #
          TdeF

          In passing, the other great masters of money I know are the Parsi, roughly from Iran and Babylon. And the Hokkien Chinese, the worlds great traders. That’s just my experience. These groups are of course remarkably successful in every society, something which can produce resentment because making money with money is considered worship of Mammon and not real work. By some.

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          • #
            Betty Luks

            TdeF,

            Thank you for responding to my comment. I realise the whole subject of Money could take up too mush space and time when Jo has written about West Australia seceding from the Commonwealth Federation – but the subjects are interrelated.

            I did suggest:
            “Money began as a ‘means to and end’ not ‘an end in itself’. We have mistaken a means for an end – big trouble lies ahead.”

            Archaeologist Sir Charles Woolley in “The Sumerians” (1965), wrote that when the Egyptian civilisation began the civilisation of the Sumerians had already flourished for at least 2000 years and their business systems and international (for the times) trade and commerce compared very favourably with modern systems.

            I thought David Graeber, Professor of Anthropology at the London School of Economics summed up the present situation in the ‘blurb’ he wrote for Economic Historian Michael Hudson’s 2018 book “forgive them their debts” – ‘Lending, Foreclosure and Redemption From Bronze Age to the Jubilee Year’:

            “We like to use the term “ancient history” as a code word for “of no possible relevance to matters of consequence today.” … Nothing could be further from the truth. If we don’t take heed, ancient history is likely to engulf us in ways that will shatter our complacency in the most disastrous ways.”

            David Graeber wrote of “Debt: The First Five Thousand Years” and revealed that Credit was commonplace for thousands of years before notes and coins came into existence.

            As for Michael Hudson historian and economist delving into ancient history, he reminds us that the term “forgive us our sins” has “more to do with throwing the moneylenders out of the Temple than today’s moneylenders would like you to know.”

            TdeF I ask you a question: In Understanding that

            THE MEANS is an ACTION towards a certain END and that

            THE END is the OBJECTIVE aimed for

            What do you think is the OBJECTIVE all our industrial/technological/automated energies and efforts (THE MEANS) are FOR?

            What is the OBJECTIVE we humans AIM FOR in our economic system?

            I am reminded of an engineer’s comments on the matter:

            In attacking an engineering problem the first point we settle with as much exactness as possible, is OUR OBJECTIVE.

            Your answer will of course give hints as to your basic philosophy.

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          Kalm Keith

          Interesting.

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          tonyb

          interesting thread. When we are divorced from the immediate consequences of spending money then surely that is a tipping point that ultimately causes unsustainable debt? Firstly we had credit card where that absurdly over priced 30dollar T shirt became ‘free’, so the more practical 5 dollar one became ‘expensive’ being paid for with cash from the pocket which became visibly less in your pocket once the transaction was made.

          With this waving of a card vaguely in the direction of the machine money disappears ever quicker and more painlessly and these small ‘free’ transactions soon add up. It takes discipline to not spend that money and discipline and racking up ever larger debts seems not to concern many, including our respective govts who are spending our children’s future on schemes, many ill conceived in order to ‘combat CV’

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      Peter C

      On the basis of income alone, the Pilbara would secede from Western Australia.

      Of interest is that the Hutt River Province has just returned to Australia.
      https://www.watoday.com.au/national/end-of-an-empire-hutt-river-to-rejoin-australia-after-50-years-20200803-p55i1u.html

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    Konrad

    Sadly McGowan has chosen to join the ranks of those leaving a permanent record of rubbishing HCQ.

    The problem for clowns like this is the studies on HCQ and the autopsies from SARS-COV-1 are ancient. They date from 2003. So no flappy-hands “But, but at the time …” excuses will work.

    And what will these clowns be trying to excuse? Fighting to stop the use of drugs in the quinine group, the only ones shown so far to reduce viral replication early in infection. That becomes an issue now the long term health problems in survivors are being studied.

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      David Maddison

      I want to see anyone whomsoever is or was engaged in policy activism against the use of HCQ for early stage treatment of C-19 sued for the consequences (note MUST be used EXACTLY according to Zelenko’s protocol). Sadly, in the case of politicians, they cannot be sued for their actions and none of them (in power) care about the welfare of the people in any case.

      The information is out there. The supplies are available. At the very worst Zelenko’s treatment is harmless. Zelenko even used the expressions that not allowing it to be used is “murder” and “a crime against humanity”.

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      Another Ian

      He’s just tuning up to sing the song of rubbishing aspirin

      https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2020/08/01/ivermectin-doxycycline-98-cure/#comment-131781

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      OriginalSteve

      It shows you who thier masters are i think if they criticize HCQ.

      The globalists want a vaccine-only “solution” so in order to be able to force the sheep into the “slaughterhouse” is remove all other options including HCQ.

      Put another way, would you hand over your families’ well being to a bunch of wealthy globalists who basically “own” the WHO and appear to think they know what is best for us…that of course being the antithesis of basic human freedom.

      To pull off a porky as big as Climate Change(tm) requires a Goebbels level campaign and imagimary threats to rally the punters around.

      Even better if you can lock the sheep up and tell them its for thier own good, and they need permission to leave thier houses, just like in jail….

      “Truth is not what is…truth is what people percieve it to be”
      - Adolf Hitler.

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    Travis T. Jones

    The author is blinded by TDS, but a long and interesting well researched article with links:

    Hydroxychloroquine: The Narrative That it Doesn’t Work is the Biggest Hoax in Recent Human History

    https://truthabouthcq.com/hcq-works/

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    EternalOptimist

    Been to WA a few times. Spent many happy hours sitting in the sunshine outside London Court in Perth, drinking coffee and debating whether to have the crab baguette or not. happy days.

    In fact, I was due to be there in 19 days. Fly into Perth, up through the Kalbari, wildflowers, blowholes and on to Broome, then across to Darwin for a few days then Alice Springs.

    Meanwhile my Daughter lands in Sydney, hires a camper and drive to Alice via willcannia and woomera.

    We meet in Alice, in the Bo Jangles bar at eight oclock. next day we head off in different directions.

    what a trip that would have been. what a story.

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    Peter Fitzroy

    Great post Jo.
    You drew the curtain behind the bluster and pandering that marks most of our political theatre.
    never has the phrase ‘we have the best money can buy’ been more appropiatly applied to the political class.

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    bobl

    My god Jo you’re turning back into a rabid green, with all the things the government is doing wrong you reckon they’re right on this one thing – well No they’re not, and selfish Western Australians preventing people from using their constitutional right to work or even seek refuge in a safer place are just causing financial hardship and more deaths among other Australians in the Eastern States.

    The Average age of people dying from/with Covid is 81, The Average age of a child born in 2017 is only expected to be 82. The youngest victim in their 40s born say 1980 has an average expected lifespan of 75 that’s 6 years LESS THAN THE AVERAGE AGE OF COVID VICTIMS

    Instead of government stupidity and unconstitutional closed state borders let’s do this first:

    1. Allow Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin and Zinc to be given to vulnerable parties as a prophylactic and early treatment- a Treatment closed off from Australians just because Trump dared to endorse it (and It’s cheap making few profits for big Pharma) This alone would reduce deaths 80% – studies show it reduces hospital admissions from about 5.5% to under 1%, the government’s stupidity on this has killed people.

    2. Get RID of the petrie dish of Hotel Quarantine and quarantine people in places separated by an air break (Cabins) or in a place with a properly designed air supply (Like a hospital).

    3. Tell people about Vitamin D/E/Zinc, get people Outside where the probability of infection is at least 10 times lower (With social distancing) the negative effect of the forced inactivity is enough to make you sick. Even winter UV (especially in the North will help sterilise). Inform people how to recognise and treat Pneumonia so they don’t arrive at hospital too late.

    4. Create quarantine villages and Move infected people into them. Except in Victoria where it’s pointless, they are on their way to involuntary herd immunity (Which Curry says is around 17%)

    5. Really close the international border (No constitutional problems there). Control movements to and from towns with NO known infection. Do NOT shut down the economies of places with NO INFECTION – control any movements of people INTO places with no/low infection. No reports of people being fined $4000 for taking their horse 10km for a feed in places with no infection and in circumstances where there are no contacts. Yes, it’s happened in donkey Dan’s Victoria.

    6. Give out Masks – AND MAKE THEM WORK BETTER redesign the masks specifically for Covid-19, potentially incorporating activated charcoal/and or silver. Make them free so A) people won’t reuse them, and B pensioners, the vast numbers of unemployed created by hysterical panic stricken governments and the poor can afford them – ONE N95 mask is almost $10.00.

    7. Give UV + HEPA air purifiers to the vulnerable.

    8. Mandate upgrade of supermarket aircon with UV air sterilisation and HEPA filtering in infectious place before they can open (EG Melbourne). Get indoor temperatures of these establishments up to 22 deg C. Raising the recirculating air to 80 deg C (IE a Fan heater) will kill just about any pathogen in seconds.

    9. Enable people to keep their places warm, inhibiting transmission and preventing comorbidities (EG Flu) from interacting with CV-19. Give vulnerable people a full heating energy rebate. If nothing else circulating air through heaters at over 80 deg C kills pathogens instantly.

    10. Test people upon arrival interstate and every 3 days for 14 days, constrain them to particular activities places and times and to keep a diary. – Allow people to work interstate to stop the suicides.

    These 10 things done together would pretty much stop Covid -19 in its tracks yet no government is doing ANY OF IT. All of this should be done BEFORE borders are touched.

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      Kalm Keith

      That’s the Australia CV19 Plan.

      Why didn’t it come from our National Health Commission?

      Politicians need to be brought to account when, as a nation, we are unprepared, unaware and obviously can’t think straight.

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        bobl

        Thanks Keith, all of it is science based, all of it obeys the laws of physics and chemistry it allows for the fact that social distancing HAS BEEN PROVED NOT TO WORK AT TEMPERATURES UNDER 10, OR WHEN THE DEW POINT IS HIGH (IE In fog like conditions). It also allows for the fact that COVID-19 has been found circulating in closed air systems!

        Microdroplet transmission IS REAL Dan!

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          OriginalSteve

          I heard once thst some buildings are bad for bugs circulating through the aircon. One solution was injecting pure alcohol into the air flow in the aircon ducts to nuke the nasties….works quite well apparently.

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      Geoff Sherrington

      Bobl,
      Sadly, you lower the quality of Jo’s blog when, with little apparent qualifications, you gather together some of your preferred beliefs basd on the words of other people, then propose a solution to a major problem as better than the world’s best have achieved so far.
      Scientific progress comes not from gossip mongering, but from careful and often tedious work whose progress is harmed by poorly informed comment. Geoff S

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        Kalm Keith

        And, by extension, you are criticising my lack of education and critical thinking skills.

        Thank you David.

        We all appreciate Jo’s dedication to finding the truth and also her obvious depth of biological knowledge on this topic of CV19.

        The other aspect of the problem is that the virus lives in the world, which is an extraordinarily complex environment and full of possibilities and dead ends.

        The influence of environment is seen on the progression of the virus through New York and Italy, which have definite similarities and compare that with Australia and Vietnam.

        There’s no “one size fits all” solution and playing follow the leader is a no no!

        KK

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        Rob Kennedy

        Geoff, unless you have personally had some visions or locutions from higher powers you would be like everyone else in gaining an education and if necessary, qualifications, via the words of other people. It is just a matter of who you decide to believe. Jesus Christ, Buddha, Aristotle, Albert Einstein, your schoolteachers, , , , the list goes on. The opinions here on this blog seem for the most part backed up by the words of highly qualified people from sources all over the world. Research can be enlightening. Many of these sources are phony. (This would be a very long list.)

        The “worlds best” would be a topic of endless debate. At the moment with almost total control of the MSM, the people exercising that control have only given us lies, (there is no human to human transmission of this virus, hydoxychloroquine is an unproven and possibly dangerous treatment) farcial contradictions which have political leaders doing backflips worthy of Olympic qualifiers. ( no masks, yes masks – borders open, borders closed etc.) and such draconian measures to try to contain a virus which has completely escaped (and will return just like coronaviruses do) oblivious to the far greater harm done to people by these measures.

        Personally, I enjoy reading the opinions of others and the links to interesting articles about various topics, be it climate or just recently the common sizes of building timber (lumber).

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          Rob Kennedy

          I do not imply that “Many of these sources are phony” applies to those referenced on this blog, just to the Internet as a whole.

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        bobl

        Oh, and then by extension you say that Jo lowers the quality of her own blog by saying the exact same things.
        Jo has posted on all these things.
        * The Zelenko Protocol
        * Microdroplet transmission
        * Population Density Correlation
        * Air breaks – Otherwise known as the Rottness Island Solution
        * Testing regimes and contact tracing – Otherwise known as the Taiwanese method.
        * UV, Temperature and salinity effects on pathogens with protein coats.
        * Virus viability on surfaces vs material and temperature.
        * Masks
        * Statistics showing over 90% of deaths have comorbidities
        * International border closures.

        So our delightful host while somewhat panicky, has supported almost everything I’ve said – If you reckon She’s right then I’m right.

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      Peter Fitzroy

      The “right” to stay healthy is superseded by the “right” to work? That is what let the covid-19 cat out of the bag in Victoria. The fact is we are community, and we must do the best for everyone.

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        el gordo

        Hear Hear.

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        Rob Kennedy

        Peter, please don’t mention ‘cat out of the bag’ or anything about cats, since the Herald Sun cartoonist, Mark Knight, portrayed Dan Andrews’ efforts at containing the virus as a bewildered Dan trying to herd cats, some with masks -some without, but all ignoring his directions and refusing to be herded, as cats do.

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        bobl

        No, Allowing BLM protests and petrie dish hotel quarantine did, nothing to do with people working.

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          Peter Fitzroy

          BLM demonstrations did not have any effect in other states, and there is no evidence that it did in Victoria
          My sister survived hotel quarantine, on her way to the funeral of my father
          My daughter is currently half way through hotel quarantine, as she needs to renew her B2 American Visa, and this needs to be done outside the USA.

          on the other hand, not providing pandemic sick pay, could be the root cause that Covid-19 got away.

          Still – keep up with conspiracy theories, they are entertaining

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            el gordo

            ‘ … not providing pandemic sick pay …’

            Yep, henceforth known as Morrison’ big blunder.

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    • #

      Bobl: Since when was fighting for State rights the work of a “rabid green”?

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      • #

        Since that became the standard defensive rhetoric for people who need to explain the actions of others they disagree with. Welcome to the world of vacuous partisanisation of everything.

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        bobl

        Ok Jo, Withdrawn… I’m a bit sick of the over the top hysteria. Border closures are not constitutionally warranted and it seems to be the green/left ( as well as your good self ) that are advocating we ignore the constitution. I’m a bit over the blatant political landgrabs and panic merchandising to the populace and believe in the constitution, so I got a bit curt. Sorry.

        There needs to be perspective, as I’ve pointed out the average lifespan of a Covid-19 victim currently exceeds that of their birth cohort – this disease, or at least the Australian strain of it, statistically isn’t so much killing people as becoming another life ending mediator, like Cancer, Heart attacks, Dementia, COPD, pneumonia and flu. As a life ending mediator it’s pretty damned poor one compared to the biggies.

        Jo, I am plonk square in the middle of the vulnerable group, but even I see we can’t go on like this. The hysteria has to stop, and soon.

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    Zigmaster

    The problem with the Coronavirus response all along is that the National cabinet has been National in name only. All states would meet then everyone goes and does their own thing. The virus was such a clear threat that the federal government should’ve used emergency powers to centralise the responses. The virus didn’t blow up in Victoria only and nowhere else because the borders between the States closed but because the Victorian government was totally incompetent. In fact if anyone but the Andrews government was in charge then Australia which because of its geographic good fortune of being an island would have been as good as virus free. The closure of borders is extremely divisive and economically damaging. If one looks at NSW for example if ( except for Ruby Princess) their leaders were in charge of Victoria we’d be all enjoying virtually virus free environment. Even having kept its border open to Victoria it has managed very quickly to stay on top of the second wave.
    The closure of borders only worked in those States because the fed government bailed out the States with the economic stimulus packages. As it is the border closures have decimated tourism and have only looked appropriate in hindsight because Andrews and his team were so totally incompetent. If Andrews had done the same as everyone else and managed quarantine and aged care properly we would be asking why Queensland had chosen to so needlessly decimate its tourism industry.
    Other states shouldn’t delude themselves into thinking closing borders was correct. Anything other than sport that puts State v State is unhealthy for Australia.

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      bobl

      No, Victoria blew up because of the BLM protests AND the petrie dishes they created in hotel quarantine that even infected the uninformed guards. We are so lucky that infections have been so low in other states that we haven’t incubated the virus in Hotel aircon systems (Yet). When they found high rise hotspots they didn’t think to do the obvious and clear the uninfected out of the obvious petrie dish and sterilise the ventilation systems, instead they locked the uninfected inside the petrie dish to become infected and (if they have comorbidities) possibly die.

      It’s so damned obvious, this virus spread is strongly correlated with population density, hotel quarantine INCREASES POPULATION DENSITY. NSW has approved a close quarter Islamic celebration designed to radically INCREASE POPULATION DENSITY against all reason.

      What the Vic government did was despicable – our governments are clear No Science Zones, but we knew that. Even the chief medical officers seem to be clueless about physics and chemistry with no idea about hard science or statistics. I have to say though that my long experience with the medical profession shows that is just the case. Many doctors have no idea how what they do works.

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      Doc

      Closing State borders worked, just as closing our external borders worked – both against those with loudest voices stating it was wrong. In WA it worked even better by dividing the State into zones and people
      were stopped from crossing zones. Most of our problems came from international tourism. Closing State
      borders blocked transference of virus from East to West. Currently, everything within the State is ‘open’,
      but everywhere the separation rules, hand washing etc still apply. We even run AFL with moderate
      crowd number restriction. I’m not gloating; simply, it worked. With family in USA, and Bali I don’t
      suggest I like it. So far, OK.

      A Constitution developed over 120years ago would never have envisaged modern times and problems.
      The fact is, ‘clean’ States don’t want to face up to importing the problems of the East with all the health,
      economic and political problems that come from that. That is what the Commonwealth government had to be forced into seeing (unbelievably) , so it pulled out of supporting Clive’s attack on the borders. Closed borders are not a negative to the East, unless you want the entire nation trapped in a Victorian / NSW
      type situation with grossly larger expenses to be paid for. I understand the economic argument for open
      borders, but how does that get better by having 3more States and the NT ( with its ultra large abor.
      population ) also fighting virus transmissions. The real fact currently is, for Australia the nation is
      dependent on NSW and Victoria controlling their outbreaks. From a WA perspective, that’s the equivalent of
      Having zonal control. It’s nothing to do with competitive attitudes. Those two States regain control and
      opening up may become realistic, provided it doesn’t simply create new problems for ‘us’.

      The other matter is, ‘it’s mainly the old or constitutionally weak that die’ logic. Neither the public nor
      a politician that wants to continue a career will accept ‘permissible’ death rates that accord with the
      economic narrative. Look at the scandals of aged care facilities world wide. The fact is, those dying
      are the loved ones of those that aren’t as highly at risk. Try fighting an election on ‘allowed deaths’ ie government determined euthanasia. The corollary becomes ‘which group can be sacrificed’ for the next problem
      that besets the nation? I might be 80yrs old, but this is the bottom line of what society is being demanded
      to accept.

      The other part of that argument is, by accepting that philosophy we can get the national
      economy rolling along as usual. The economy of all nations are now interdependent. That’s the
      meaning of globalisation. Apart from apparently China, name one modern nation that is currently
      running normally and profitably during this pandemic. Our nation depends on its exports. We are
      currently flying along on high iron ore prices – dependent on restrictive conditions applying to
      employment in WA’s mining industry. China stops buying. Tourism and education dead. Service
      Industry which employs many; dead. I wonder if Australians realise just how thin is the string that
      keeps us afloat. We are dependent on how the world comes out of fighting this virus. Not on
      our own bickering on irrelevancies. Closed State borders actually give our economy the protection
      needed to have a chance at funding ourselves instead of taking out a third world loan from China.
      That has to be an essential matter of interest in the welfare of the nation. It cannot be placed at
      risk by compelling open borders and viral spread into the few areas we have currently able to
      Produce taxable income.

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    David Maddison

    Notice to Red Thumb Troll: If HCQ is ever approved for early stage treatment of C-19 infection, you must NOT use it.

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      TdeF

      Rest assured they read nothing. This is very low quality trolling. You and I get an automatic red tick. The third one is probably not out of bed yet.

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    Matty

    A WW2 style deficit for 200 people, bulk of which are from nursing homes or a cruise ship. History will not view this well. State premiers now stuck in their fear driven loops that spiral down while divorce and suicide go through the roof. It’s been politics at it’s worst. Now at war over a treatment that sits right next to the panadol in many countries. If we use HCQ there will be no demand for the new vaccine which is going to be peddled irrespective of how ineffective it is. Get ready for global register of who’s had it and who hasn’t. In five minutes flat the UN will have achieved what it couldn’t via climate terrorizing.

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    Ross

    When we discuss hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) regarding COVID we should actually be stating it as the “Zelenko protocol”. HCQ (alone) is used to treat rheumatoid arthritis, lupous etc. The Zelenko protocol (HCQ + Azithromycin + Zinc + Vitamin D) is the early treatment for COVID that can prevent hospitalization. Most of the contributors to the forum would already know this. Just the pronunciation of HCQ scares people who have never heard it before. Just describing it as HCQ also just triggers all the ATDS sufferers.

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    Cynic of Ayr

    This used t be a great site.
    It was a Climate Change site. Not “for the science” but “against false science”.
    It brought engineers, and knowledgeable people, writing articles that pointed out with clear logic, the stupidity of those pushing for “Renewable Energy.”
    Jo Nova was a leading purveyor of the stupidity, and indeed, the whole reason for her site was that she was tired of all the lies and bullshit.
    Well, where’s it gone?
    The Wind Power debacle is being handled by Catallaxy Files – a site for economists!
    Jo has descended into being just another whining “journalist” with several degrees in Medicine and Microbiology out of a Corn Flakes packet, and clearly in her own mind, quite capable of running the Country differently, and saving every life on the planet.
    Now, it’s just another Chinese Corona site. Another one! Another site, repeating Ad Nauseam, the bullshit that the so-called Medical Experts keep bandying about, all of which is mostly guesswork, and all of which is in contravention of the ideas of other Medical Experts. None of them agree, except perhaps the ones worried about the Economy.
    Now, we’re onto Politics! The argument of borders, and whether WA wants to be it’s own country. This is an idea most likely put up by Forester et al, as they see it as a way to run their very own country.
    So,I rarely come her anymore. I roll my eyes when I do, but today, my eye rolling degenerated into annoyance.
    If that’s the way the site wants to go, fine. It’s almost a free country. But at least come out and say it. “Don’t come here for climate related information!”
    I can get all this shit elsewhere, if I want to.
    For climate news and reports, I also go elsewhere, as there isn’t any here.

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      bobl

      I think you should take a look at Jo’s punch line and reconsider what this site is about. I might not always agree with what Jo has to say but I’ll defend with my life her right to say it. Not to mention that Jo usually just lets me have my say even though she doesn’t always agree with me. This blog is about science and society and we have lively debates on many topics related to…

      A perfectly good civilization is going to waste…

      Too bad the Covid debate is coloured with so much hysteria and emotion that we are failing to stick to the science and math, but the debate is what it is.

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        Cynic of Ayr

        I know what the site is/was about. I’ve been reading it basically since it’s inception, and it WAS about the Climate Scam. Politics was never mentioned, other than the folly of politician’s and political party’s enthusiasm for the nonsense, and their enthusiasm for the expenditure of other people’s money on same.
        (” but I’ll defend with my life her right to say it is just a meaningless cliche, unless you have some close personal relationship.)
        It’s not up to me what this site is now about. That’s up to the owner.
        All I am pointing out is that I was interested in the owner’s provision of climate information, but I’m not interested in the owner’s politics, nor her medical opinions.
        And, based on that criteria, the site no longer interests me. It does not have the abundant information on the Climate Scam it used to have.
        That doesn’t mean it’s going to fall arse over head. My level of importance is around the average of everyone else here.
        And that, my friend, is the end of the matter.

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      Rob Kennedy

      Cynic of Ayr, I understand your point, but I would like to see it go in the other direction in so far as I think there is much to be gained by understanding the connection between this virus agenda and the ‘failed’ climate warming/change agenda. Even the World Economic Forum, which is the driving force to achieve ‘The Great Reset’ promotes the virus pandemic as a means of achieving their aims. The goal is the same, and look at what has been achieved so far, 16,000 airliners grounded around the world, the ‘Tabula Rasa’ state of the world economy, and if we are going to let it happen a huge reduction in world population.

      As bobl says above, this site and blog is about civilization. I believe we witnessing the destruction of it and the birthing of a ‘New World Order’. It is all in plain sight, but who sees it?

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        Cynic of Ayr

        I replied to bobl.

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          Kalm Keith

          Cynic, often when we examine a problem closely it gives us an insight into other problems that have stumped us.

          Basically Global Warming is a baseless assertion that human origin CO2 can influence atmospheric temperatures.
          There’s no truth or science to the idea.

          What we almost certainly have here in the CV19 drama is a parallel attempt to “control us”.

          In examining the CV19 issue for Australia we can see bad medical management, political grabbing for points/votes at the next election and the ultimate inducement, a position on the board of management of the WHO for some fortunate Australian politicians.

          When this is exposed, it will give a cross link to what’s happening with the global warming money spinner.

          This may be the only positive to come out of the current CV19 industry: an awakening of the public consciousness to political malfeasance.

          KK

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    Matty

    I will never trust the AMA again – but that much should have been obvious after they lined up every time to spruik climate armageddon. What sort of DR wants to head the AMA these days????
    If medical advice is compulsory, enforceable by law, and concocted daily by an arm waving activist then we have found a new totalitarian model.

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    Matty

    I really am going on a bit this morning because I’m in a suspended state of disbelief at the moment. Political success is now defined by an infection rate of a virus that spreads rather like the common cold and very little else suddenly matters. It’s a race to the bottom now with Victoria sinking the fastest but may take others with them. Infections….infections….infections…..but never mind that ordinary respiratory illnesses have killed many more people this year in Australia even with the lock-downs. We have gone completely insane.

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    David Maddison

    Melbourne had an infectious diseases hospital called Fairfield built in 1904 whose only purpose was to sit empty waiting for use during a pandemic or plague.

    It was closed in 1996 when the government thought it was unnecessary.

    It’s where all hospitalised C-19 patients could have been sent.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfield_Infectious_Diseases_Hospital

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    Bruce MacKinnon

    So the premier of WA is sure hydroxychloroquine is dangerous. This is an example of disinformation. He may believe it, if so his information sources are bad. A little research will reveal HCQ has been around since at least WW2, at least as Quinine. It is used to treat a range of things, especially Malaria Type 1 and Q Fever. Its benefits and dangers are well known and documented. Larger doses can produce a range of side effects, but that is true for the majority of drugs.
    It has been shown ad infinitum by many doctors all over the world that HCQ combined with a zinc supplement, is highly effective to the point of 100% if used before extreme infection sets in. It is actually the zinc that blocks the CV, as it does any CV, but this one more so. They often use an antibiotic also.
    Two doctors conferences have just occurred, one in Washington DC and the other in Germany, of doctors from the front line who are using the combination treatment with great success. They take mild doses themselves to protect themselves, and to date no one who has done so has ever been infected, even though they deal with many new infections in patients every working day. They are prepared to put their careers on the line to advocate it.
    HCQ has the cardinal sin of being cheap(out of patent) effective, and being competition to all kinds of shoddy and nasty things the diabolically greedy big pharma mob are pushing, which will of course be very expensive, and so massively lucrative if compelled to be used. Gates is the biggest offender here, and he has Fauci on his board and very much under his control and influence. This is a criminal conflict of interest, but it seems that is no handicap in the USA, which is riddled with this insidious corruption.
    There has never been any vaccine for any CV, of which the common cold is one.
    There is a very sinister motive behind thew “Vax” approach, and its all about eugenics.

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    DD

    Looking at a number of sovereign state reactions to COV we can class Sweden and South Dakota at one end and Western Australia at the other. Two extremes.
    Sweden and South Dakota both treated the virus as infectious and accepted it would spread through their populations in its own time and in its own way. Just like any other virus. Sweden did a poor job of protecting the vulnerable and had many deaths. South Dakota protected the vulnerable and we can consider them for a podium finish. Visitors are unlikely to reintroduce COV to the populations of either state. Will either have a “second wave”?
    WA decided to “lock out the world” to prevent entry of the virus into the broader population. Given the value to the state and Australia of the mining revenues those areas were as vulnerable as an old peoples home. Occasional infections were dealt with by quarantine. This has been successful in controlling the spread and has allowed the WA economy to continue with minimal interruptions other than to inbound tourism. With the redirection of outbound tourism to within the state the net effect might even be positive to the state. This looks like a job well done.
    But, is it? What will happen when WA opens the state and international borders? What will be the result of the inevitable influx of the virus through open borders? Two weeks mandatory quarantine can not be continued indefinitely and inbound tourists will not come to enjoy that. Will the state need to lock up again until they accept that Quinine derivatives can control the disease. Or, will they hold out for the mythical vaccine?
    The hard decisions might still await Western Australia.

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      Graeme#4

      Precisely the query I raised with my son this morning. What then? He certainly had to pause before he responded, and that I believe are the key problems of locked state borders – there is no thought as to what will happen when they are opened, nor will anybody even discuss their opening.

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      Doc

      Reopening has always been the problem. How to do it without blowing up again. The USA has States that tried, ostensibly with Virus under controlled but now are disaster zones.
      Anyone with the answer should apply for a $1B a year position and would be worth every cent of it if
      successful. Pay after success accomplished.

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  • #

    In the past when I have posted about Sweden I am told I am a dingbat, idiot or worse, but quite frankly this virus is still massively overhyped and we now know very clearly who those in most danger are. And we are not doing well here are we…

    The lockdown is unproven as a method to stop the virus, and masks are also ineffective against viruses. Yes I know Jo will disagree on that but there is no science supporting their use in outdoor locations. And the way most wear them they wouldn’t work anyway, and many of the home made variety are dangerous to the wearer….

    Keeping on repeating a failed way of doing things and expecting a better result is madness. And so it will be with the ridiculous lockdowns. McGowan is lucky at present but will he remain closed forever? What will he do when the first cases pop up again, which they will. And don’t tell me lockdown as this will just completely destroy his and all other states. VIC is well on the way to that – there will be no third lockdown as VIC will be a basket case after this one…

    Will we be in masks forever? They are not only ineffective but utterly anti social and crims will have a field day when they wake up to mask = hoodie means they are unidentifiable.

    Sorry but we need to crush the curve and move to herd immunity like Sweden. In the next 6-12 months we will have no choice as the lockdowns will have devastated the country so much that any pollie proposing more will be removed from office.

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    • #
      Rob Kennedy

      Prof James Allan on Sky News with Alan Jones said:

      In a decade this will be looked back on as one of the most colossal public policy fiascos of the century.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvOcyc3jNcA

      How will this man-made disaster end? Our political leaders must be becoming absolutely panic stricken as each day unfolds.

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    Rob Kennedy

    One factor possibly overlooked is POWER.

    Kenry Kissinger famously said: “Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.” I’m sure students of biblical or secular history would be able to give endless examples of tyrants whose lifestyles illustrated this.

    Dan Andrews , , , we wonders, yes, we wonders. Is his mind fully on this crisis? Are our members of the Police Force, upon donning their uniforms, engaging fully with their duties?
    Also, the famous quote about power & corruption you know well.

    The Disaster caused by The State of Disaster in Victoria will be freely shared to all Australians, how could it be otherwise?

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    It's all BS

    Jo, Palmer’s pilot’s name is Carlo Filingeri. I once served with him in the Navy. Top bloke. Unlike your premier. Also ex navy, but we never really trust ones that stray to the left. something not quite right.

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    Ross

    This is a long but well researched article about data from the USA and specifically how the death figures are dramatically skewed because of the way the CDC changed their methodology for reporting on death certificates, from what they had been using for 17 years (since 2003).
    Also note despite this new “methodology” more people have died of influenza than Covid, up to mid July.

    https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/if-covid-fatalities-were-90-2-lower-how-would-you-feel-about-schools-reopening/

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    PeterS

    I find this thread amusing. We all want to know the truth about how severe the pandemic is and how to handle. However, we also know that crashing the economy is a no no as that would lead to even more deaths. Given we still don’t have a really good understanding of the virus and therefore the solution, the most common approach adopted is the precautionary principle, which I myself supported at the start and still do. However, what comes with that approach is the realisation central banks around the world collectively are “printing” trillions to avoid a depression as much as possible. The unknown is how long must they continue doing so? As long as it takes has to be the answer unless one wants the depression. Those who claim that the money “printing” will come to an end soon are just guessing, just like those who claim the pandemic will come to and end and thus lockdowns. We simply do not know. So, we just have to keep “printing” like there is no tomorrow and do all the right things to keep a lid on the pandemic. Whether it will all work even if we did all the right things is unknown. Only time will tell. Anyone who says they do know is just guessing or has a time machine. So, everyone get over it. We are in for a wild ride. Buckle up and take care.

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      bobl

      Nobody is following any precuationary principle otherwise they’d be doing things better. At best it’s Simon says.

      If we were following the precautionary principle we would protect the vulnerable, and we would make the cautious assumption that NO VACCINE IS COMING, and plan to minimise victims on that basis.

      Instead we’ve adopted some false hope, dream reality that thinks we can have a vaccine that no fast mutating Corona Virus will mutate around in weeks, when we can’t even control a virus that takes about a year to mutate. I hope it happens, but relying on it is far-far from cautious.

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      el gordo

      ‘Anyone who says they do know is just guessing or has a time machine.’

      My guesstimate is that Australia won’t fall into depression and we’ll have the situation under control by Xmas. Quantitative easing is standard practice during times of crisis, all the central banks are doing it, so there is no need to be alarmed.

      The collapse of the property bubble is a different matter entirely, but my crystal ball has gone foggy on this crash and burn scenario.

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        PeterS

        Quantitative easing is standard practice during times of crisis, all the central banks are doing it, so there is no need to be alarmed.

        That has to be the most naive statement from anyone in recent times. No, it’s not standard monetary easing. It’s socialism on steroids. What you are saying is they can “print” any amount endlessly, even quadrillions upon quadrillions, and have no detrimental effect. Dream on.

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    Farmer Gez

    I reckon it’s a great idea.
    There’s no doubt that by declaring the new country of Westralia you’ll keep a virus that’s 0.125 of a micron out forever.

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    yarpos

    Amazing what people spew out when they have a short term advantage. The same people will the happily put their hands out when times turn tough and expect people to help them. The interstate dialogue in Australia is characterised by parochialism and petty sniping, from Premiers all the way through.

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    David Maddison

    So what do you think is going to happen when people come to understand that politicians and senior “scientists” have been lying about how hydroxychloroquine is supposedly ineffective for early stage C-19 (when administered according to the Zelenko protocol)?

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      TdeF

      Nothing. They will get away with it simply because they control the media. They are the media. The Trump Deranged people are everywhere. And the great group of people who want revolution, possibly because they believe society has failed them, are right behind it. AntiFA are fascists. BLM, Burn Loot Murder are an old group of Marxists and anarchists originally from South Africa. And some schools in the US and Universities are refusing to teach American history. Here our universities refuse to teach European history. our Weather Bureau has Ab*riginal Weather. So much for science and super computers.

      Of course HCQ works. That’s the problem. And doctors around the world know it. Anyone who reads knows it. That’s why Lancet published a fake paper. The hatred of Donald Trump and the people who elected him knows no bounds.

      I just hope the support for Trump becomes a landslide. Biden is promising to remove the tax breaks, reverse make America Great, undo all the great things Trump has done for blacks in particular and start some more wars somewhere while creating a socialist paradise where Hollywood celebrities and the internet masters are Gods. Money is clearly not enough.

      After all, how many Americans believe Joe Biden is honest, can finish a sentence or represents anyone except the extreme socialists? No one. The faking of HCQ will be stuff for the historians, if they survive the purge. And save something from the book burning if Biden wins. And the way back machine will be set to 2021, the start of the new Socialist era.

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        TdeF

        And Bill and Hillary Clinton did not each go to Epstein’s S*x island many times, as was found with the flight details on Huma Abadeen’s computer seized from Anthony Weiner (What a name!) by the NY Police department and spirited away by the FBI. Now confirmed by Ghislane Maxwell’s records but the media is saying nothing. The Clintons are the greatest, most pure and ideal couple since John and Jackie Kennedy. Camelot meets Hollywood. Anything else is gossip but Jeffrey Epstein had to go. He knew far too much about too many people. And the camera outside his cell happened to fail.

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    crakar24

    COVID- Citizens Of Victoria Ignoring Directions

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    John

    I suspect that like the Spanish flu, COVID-19 though devastating will be short lived. Because those infected will either die or develop immunity. Sweden may be the first country to demonstrate this and places like NZ and WA the last.

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    PeterS

    Well if WA wants to secede they better be told not to come to Australia begging for financial assistance when the next major commodity recession hits.

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    Doc

    WA seceding is on a considerably lower plain of likelihood than Scotland from Britain. However, in the
    case of WA, nobody can say that the Nullarbor separation doesn’t create a sense of separ
    ation between
    people, and also in the Federal Parliamentary and Bureaucratic organisations. That separation is also
    apparent in national organisations to which one belongs over a lifetime. On the other side of
    of the coin, the population growth inflicted on other states through migration, especially to
    the more known cities of Sydney and Melbourne, which costs us even more by reducing
    our representation in the Federal Parliament next election, doesn’t cause us as much urban
    growth problems and keeps most places liveable.

    Interestingly, the current government in WA is, for a non Labor voter, very non controversial.
    The big change is, McGowan doesn’t daily harangue the people. Indeed, most welcome
    is the fact most days one hardly hears from the government unless it has something to say.
    We don’t cop a daily earbashing on social demands about how bad we are, or who we should be saving
    or sparing feelings for. It’s just a comfortable ‘feeling as usual’ ‘business as usual’ kind
    of day that accepts most people don’t require nor appreciate being preached to about
    values. We just get more of that than we need from media commentators that pretend
    to have answers for everything that we dumbwits simply couldn’t know.

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    MrGrimNasty

    Had Australian police on the BBC news boasting about smashing car windows and pulling people out through them because they wouldn’t say where there were going. More army being deployed in Australia the BBC said. I guess they might start with shooting out tyres before graduating to head shots to halt these evil people spreading the ‘Satan Bug’.

    Meanwhile in England/Wales deaths are completely normal, even out of season flu+pneumonia has overtaken CV19 as a cause of death. The risk of dying from CV19 under the age of 45 has proven to be as close to zero as makes no difference, and is only really significant in much older age groups. But none of this stops the authorities doing their best to drag it out. Instead of admitting HIT is very low, and all areas must be allowed to reach it, they keep trying to suppress it. Of course with population switching in/out and any short-lived immunity likely lost, if they can drag it out long enough, HIT will be lost and it’ll start all over again. Genius!

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending24july2020

    As a reminder here is the 1951 England/Wales flu epidemic, with about half (major towns only) of the total then much smaller population represented. It subsided all by itself. Imagine what crazy actions modelers/politicians would have done if they had seen that exponential growth in 1951 – but they didn’t need to do anything, except advise the vulnerable to be careful if they wished to.

    https://lh3.ggpht.com/_CLJS75_Cnao/TMbCmdTjA-I/AAAAAAAAEJ0/7cax2EZTjIk/image%5B4%5D.png?imgmax=800

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      Mr grim

      I have lived through three very big pandemics and do not recall the hysteria of this one.

      Did you see the Dutch report on the meffectiveness of masks? Part of it was based on a Norwegian study showing 200,000 people had to wear masks for a week to prevent one covid case.

      https://lockdownsceptics.org/

      Bearing in mind how much people fiddle with their masks their faces random surfaces and many don’t cover the nose it is difficult to believe there is much point to them in most situations

      Mind you I did see one person wearing a mask AND also a full length plastic face visor over the top in an open air cafe next to the sea with the nearest land 10 miles away

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    EternalOptimist

    Latest from the front line in the nw of england.
    Suprising news, it sure suprised me (in a good way)
    zero cases of covid19 in icu for the last three weeks in two of the main hospitals (not sure about the others)
    not so good news…
    cases are falling, but… almost zero caucasian patients presenting. feeling is that the caucasian infected are asymptomatic
    cases are almost exclusivley minorities, men between 50 – 65

    anecdotal evidence is that some communities are bypassing the lockdown, barber shops allowing customers in the back door
    food establishments running (you can smell them a mile away :) ). front doors closed, back doors open

    plus the BLM gatherings.
    if the anecdotal evidence is true, it shows that the lockdown does really work. because groups breaking it are being hit.

    but on the other side of the coin, there are violations of the rules by groups of caucasians who seem to escape the consequences.
    murky…

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