JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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One in three hospitalized with Covid may be “harmed for life” say UK docs

It is never a good idea to let a mystery virus with likely man-made “Gain of Function” changes run free in the population.

Virus scars for life as doctors warn of long-term health damage

London: One in three patients who recover from COVID-19 could be harmed for life, with long-term damage to their lungs, as well as chronic fatigue and psychological disturbances, research suggests.

Experts said there was growing evidence that the virus could cause persistent or even permanent trauma, including impairment to the brain and an increased risk of Alzheimer’s disease.

Dr Hilary Floyd, clinical director at the NHS Seacole Centre in Surrey, said she had been shocked by how young many of its patients were. Healthy people who were in their 40s and 50s when the virus struck were now facing long-term fatigue and disability.

“These are people who were independent, they might be running their own business, going to the gym, swimming, active – now they are at the point they can’t get out of bed,” she said.

“We have a couple of patients in their 40s at the moment; we really didn’t expect that. We were expecting them to be older, we have seen a lot in their 50s and 60s, who are really struggling, particularly because their expectation of getting back to normal is much greater.”

The rate is even higher in patients who have been in ICU — perhaps as many as half suffering long term damage.

We won’t know for years what the recovery rate and actual numbers are. The biggest concern appears to be the blood clot damage. But even half of those with asymptomatic covid show some lung damage with blood clots. Some level of this must be repairable.

This story would have been better if there was some attempt to estimate the percentage of total infections that led to this. If 15 – 45% are asymptomatic and if, say, 5% of known infections are hospitalized, that implies long term permanent damage may be around 1.5-2.5% of total infections. Though that assumes that all of the damage in half of the asymptomatic cases can be repaired. That’s still quite a disease  burden.

h/t David B

See also: Asymptomatic covid patients with no symptoms still get lung damage

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Rating: 8.9/10 (44 votes cast)
One in three hospitalized with Covid may be "harmed for life" say UK docs, 8.9 out of 10 based on 44 ratings

145 comments to One in three hospitalized with Covid may be “harmed for life” say UK docs

  • #
    Just Thinkin'

    Good to see that The Deep State is working overtime..

    164

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    Undoubtedly in its worst manifestation the CV19 virus can be a horrible disease.

    What has also been apparent since very early days here in Australia is that the government response has been lacking.

    Border screening; not implemented, instead we had the NSW Ruby accelerator incident to show other states the way.

    The age old process of quarantine ignored. Wasn’t there a disease in biblical times that was treated with quarantine. Forgotten it’s name now, it was so long ago.

    Governments, and I use that term lightly, seize upon the best sounding remedy, “crushing” to move forward with and avoid the real solution which would require identifying and isolating new outbreaks quickly so that society could hold together.

    A walk past a number of closed small businesses a month after this krushing was instituted, pointed the way, sadly.
    Immense damage not seen by Politicians.

    An example of the yet to be told story of collateral damage was given by Maree on a recent thread.

    This story isn’t over yet and The Virus isn’t going to be the main issue, at least not in Australia.

    KK

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    • #
      Greg in NZ

      Corona Carnage causes every-think, just as Climate Change caused every-fink. If the evil carbon dioxide don’t getcha then the ‘crown’ virus will!

      To quote Elma Fudd: Be afwaid, vewy vewy afwaid you wascally wabbits.

      Despite Jacindarella’s repetitive claim of going ‘hard and fast’ combatting this latest bogeyman scare, it took her bureaucracy THREE MONTHS to implement testing of all quarantined arrivals after a public outcry: 51 out of 55 recently released returnees were NOT tested (92.7%) before being allowed to freely wander the streets & shops & homes of New Zealand.

      Is 92.7% the new 97%?

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    • #
      MP

      Keith have a look at this YT, he is called the iceagefarmer and gets bits and pieces of info from everywhere and shows the links to what is happening and ties it all together. He used to be about the grand solar minimum and its effects on the food supply until this started and he, as did all, started looking into this.
      He has many good Vids and you should look at his work.

      https://youtu.be/fKLdLrVRgFE

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      • #
        glen Michel

        Whatever he says is indeed a part of a larger disruption. The insertion and take-over of our institutions – and of the wider west is confronting and alarming.It would not be an exaggeration to say that dangerous times are ahead. Be prepared.

        71

        • #
          MP

          How do you get people to look into this stuff, he has many videos going back, far more connected showing how everything is connected.

          Go back over his stuff and be very concerned about whats to come.

          22

          • #
            Broadie

            Here is a blog posting by someone called Herodotus. He was reposting a blog by Darius the Persian (in about ~ 500 BC) on how Democracies fail.

            https://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/hakhamaneshian/herod_democ.htm

            Again, in a democracy, it is impossible but that there will be malpractices: these malpractices, however, do not lead to enmities, but to close friendships, which are formed among those engaged in them, who must hold well together to carry on their villainies.

            Candace Owens had a similar comment to Darius. We are not confronting a conspiracy as such, just business practice whereby powerful businesses use whatever means at their disposal to destroy their rivals. The powerful in our world are holding together well to carry on their villianies.

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            • #
              PeterW

              In a free market, we get to choose from whom we buy and reward those who offer us what we want at a more affordable price. It’s the mechanism by which we have seen the greatest reduction in poverty, ever.!

              Corrupted markets are typically created by government. More government is not the answer to a problem created by government.

              40

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Had a look but it’s too depressing, too much.

        The world has gone crazy.

        10

        • #
          MP

          Yeah KK it is depressing but it is a reality.
          It is not a crazy world it is a well planed new world. The globalists call it the great reset (leap forward) for this to occur the old system must be destroyed as is now obviously in progress, but the old system is everything so everything must be broken. (that BLM vid)
          The world will be cashless very soon and the banks will control your money. The UN has declared a coming world wide famine, I will listen to them as they are head office for this and whats coming. Technocracy will be the end goal, one world government, but it is far worse than that.

          To change the direction, all it will take is for people to wake up and have this conversation.

          Prepare, you need food. Every time this crap has been tried they starved the populace to death. More people died in the century we were born in through socialist goals than all wars ever fought throughout history combined.
          The socialists reason (can you use those two words in a sentence together) that it was just done wrong the other times, this time it will be different, yet we are going to do it the exact same way, same book of rules and hope to get a different result.

          Gates and their foundation are buying big time into waste management. Lismore city council now force consumers to buy green single use plastic bags from them for food waste and these are separated from other waste, this is to track your consumption, garbage trucks weigh those bins (hydraulics) and log it to your address. South Korea was the trial country, they now pay by the bag, you have to pay in advance for what you are yet to consume.
          Their is a group called ICLEI, this is the united nations at local government level, they run the councils and control the money, my local ICLEI member is the CEO of our council, this is how they bring it about. Think globally act locally is the UN chant. You don’t have to be signed up to be in it, my council is not on the list but we follow it anyway. (CEO)

          https://www.iclei.org/ This mob dress as sheep but they are wolves.

          21

  • #

    As we have been pointing out for months, locking sun starved vitamin d lackimg uk people up in their houses was a very foolish thing to do

    ‘Writing in the study, the researchers said: ‘Forcing people to remain indoors may have increased or assured contagion of Covid-19 among same household dwellers and among patients and personnel inside the same hospital or geriatric facilities. 

    ‘In contrast, healthy people outdoors receiving sunlight could have been exposed to a lower viral dose with more chances for mounting an efficient immune response. ’

    This is on a par with hospitals sending elderly people with covid into care homes where it ran riot, where hospitals themselves infected people with covid who didn’t have it when entering hospital, so people died with covid but not necessarily of it. Then more deaths followed as people were too scared to go into hospital and thousands of deaths have occurred due to lack of diagnosis and treatment of such things as cancer.

    Ironically not only was it very foolish to imprison people inside their houses and deny them the ability to go outside where it is much safer, but homes themselves are some of the most dangerous places to be.

    The royal society for the prevention of accidents reports some 6000 accidental deaths a year in uk homes which includes some 600 stair related deaths.

    With more people staying iside for much longer we can only assume those numbers will increase.

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    • #

      As I have been pointing out for months, the real stupidity in the UK was, in this order:

      1/ Open borders. They could have avoided the lockdown completely. Then they could have made the lockdown more effective and shorter. It’s almost like The Swamp wanted the UK mired in a long slow stupid bleed option?

      2/ The Swamp believed Chinese propaganda and called this “the flu” and aimed for Herd Immunity. Strangely, some people are still repeating the Chinese propaganda.

      3/ Not enough testing. Caught unprepared and then made it worse. Stopped contact tracing too early.

      4/ Not using Vit D supplements. (Pretty easy to overcome a lack of sunlight indoors at 5c a dose).

      5/ Not using masks. (This is too cheap and obvious).

      6/ No regional borders to protect the rest of the UK from London, allowing them to open up early.

      Why assume more people will die at home when you could look up the data instead? Check the stats on “All cause mortality”. In every state where there is a lockdown without mass hospital deaths due to Covid, the all cause mortality doesn’t support the assumption.

      The UK could have got rid of this virus at least 3 different ways, but stuffed all of them up.

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      • #
        tonyb

        Jo

        The data is available for the South West and more specifically our county.

        6500 deaths were forecast 356 have occurred. I can find very few if any cases that were spread within the community. 95% of Deaths occurred in care homes and hospitals. The hospitals decanted elderly people without testing into care homes of whom a number had CV and infected the care home

        Hospitals themselves remained a centre for the virus with very many of those who entered hospitals for other reasons then catching the virus and dying with it. As my link above shows it was gross stupidity to lock up sun starved people in well sealed small homes without gardens, where the virus circulated or was reintroduced to the wider indoor world through visits to shops etc. Outside was ALWAYS the best place to be

        Our county (which is one of the least affected) is nevertheless very representative of many other smaller communities, with most deaths being in the big cities and amongst immigrant communities who for a variety of reasons were more susceptible.

        I don’t necessarily disagree with too much of your list but this notion that the virus has ravaged the country is not correct. A limited number of people in specific settings were badly affected, of which the elderly or the already very ill were in the front line.

        Many additional deaths have been caused by people not willing to attend hospitals or who did attend and got infected and the fixation on CV has meant many thousands will die of ailments that could have been treated. They were turned away for 12 weeks whilst the Nightingale hospitals lay empty.

        So of course not so many people need to have died, but that is primarily for treating the pandemic as the Black death and not vastly reducing numbers at risk by testing and rooting out the virus from care homes and hospitals. The numbers who caught it in their own homes through being locked down is as yet unknown.

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  • #
    PeterW

    “May be”….

    It is even less of a good idea to so focus on one threat and one proposed solution, that we ignore both costs and consequences.

    History is replete with the disasters that have followed monomaniacal campaigns to create utopia by eliminating one problem, regardless of cost. Drugs, Jews, Alcohol, The Rich, Sexism, Racism, Foreign Invaders….. COVID is looking very like just another Cause-du-Jour.

    You want to talk about “not a good idea” – that is, permanent harm to billions of lives – it is handing control over our lives and our society to people whose experience is limited and who have no skin in the game.

    You want to talk about another “not-a-good-idea”….. spending our limited resources on just one issue, thereby defunding our response to other causes that cause even greater harm. Fanatics refuse to do the sums.

    202

  • #
    Graham Richards

    Oh dear, there’s that phrase again, “ research suggests”.
    Maybe, could be, possible ,high probability,. How about facts , like COVID-19 is a man made weapon maliciously released by China!

    151

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    It must be man made, and it must be china. Why?

    Still, if you distrust nature, dismiss evolution, and discount science it is the only alternative remaining

    [Snip]AD

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    • #
      Crakar24

      PF,

      The closest relative to cv19 is pangolin and ratg13. However neither of these have the PRRA amino acid sequence which gives the virus the “cleavage site” or if you like the ability to enter the cell ergo this sequence was inserted. In addition the place the ratg13 is known to exist is in the Wuhan lab……of course its always better to do your own research still any further questions?

      111

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        no – spanish flu would be the closest relative. Your assertions are just right wing conspiracies.

        117

        • #
        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          A pandemic which arose naturally, was deadly, but was close in genetic structure to other similar, but non lethal virus strains. The argument that it must be man made, displays, as I said, a lack of understanding of evolution, environment and science. It is also hubustic to assert that as well.

          112

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            Even if it was man made, surely it would likely be more subject to mutation. If it were not so, we would not be here now after billions of years of evolution.

            00

          • #
            Fed Streeter

            Oh dear.

            The US, China, UK, Canada, probably many others, were all playing with the SARS type virus, ostensibly to determine what form future mutations might take, so that effective vaccines could be developed more quickly.

            (Others may claim a viral weapon was the objective, and a vaccine would be necessary before the weapon could be used, but I’m a charitable type.)

            And I resent being classified as Right Wing merely because I suggest that it is more likely to have been created in a laboratory exploring the forms that the Coronavirus might take.

            10

          • #
            AndyG55

            “a lack of understanding of evolution, environment and science.”

            Coming from you, that is hilarious!

            So self-unaware.

            31

        • #
          Orson

          Peter – bird flu Spanish Influenza is just like Bat flu SARS….
          P. T. Barnum used words to tell you off, but I prefer scatology like bovi excrement!

          10

  • #
    Ken Davis

    Research is clear – this is what viral illness does, Always has. Probably always will. Or it might be more accurate to say this is what 0.5-5% of humane Immune systems do in response to a viral infection. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1569956/ – There are a lot of viruses and other pathogens out there. Maybe we should find another planet that is less doomed? Or maybe the one thing we can learn from this is that hand washing and low population densities are good. Not going to work sick is good. An adequate safety net so people don;t feel compelled to infect everyone else is good. And viruses are racist.

    160

    • #
      William Astley

      Viruses are not ‘racists’. That is logically not possible.

      Logically as we all came out of Africa, roughly at most 70,000 years ago….(the human population was reduced to a few hundred people roughly 70,000 years ago due to an extreme climate event).

      We (the entire human population) are in terms of our evolved DNA, including our microbiological ability to fight viruses, the same.

      What is causing all dark skin people, to have health, life, energy, mental ability issues, and so on is a nasty deficiency, caused by their dark skin and their ignorance concerning the deficiency.

      This study and others show that people who are vitamin D deficient are 19 times more likely to die from covid and have serious complications as compared to people who are Vitamin D ‘normal’, blood serum levels of 25(OH)D greater than 30 ng/ml which requires 4000 UI/day of Vitamin D supplements per person for the US population to achieve.

      Logically as the darkest skin people produce 10 times less 25(OH)D as typical white skin people, for the same sun exposure….

      And due to dark and white skin people wearing clothes, working indoors from 10:00 am to 3:00 pm, living at higher latitudes,…

      … 82% of the US ‘black’ population, 68% of the US Hispanic population, and 42% of the US general population are Vitamin D deficient.

      Coronavirus: Black African deaths three times higher than white Britons – study

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52574931

      Prevalence and correlates of vitamin D deficiency in US adults.

      https://tahomaclinic.com/Private/Articles4/WellMan/Forrest%202011%20-%20Prevalence%20and%20correlates%20of%20vitamin%20D%20deficiency%20in%20US%20adults.pdf

      The 25(OH)D in our blood turns on genes in our body that adds features to our cells which enables them to prevent cancer, fight virus, protect against autoimmune diseases, and so on. People who are ‘Vitamin’ D normal are actually different at a cellular level. Microbiological ‘Vitamin’ D adds microchemical features to our cells, an upgraded a cellular level. The Vitamin D new features added to our cell, are the result of millions of years of evolution.

      This a science daily, announcement of the Vitamin D prostate finding. The study got removed prostate glands with and without 4000 UI/day (double bind). The Vitamin D cohort removed glands had obviously shrunk. The new gene analysis techniques were used to determine the activated gene that made the change.

      It is believed the Vitamin D activated gene stops internal inflammation which explains why correcting the Vitamin D deficiency reduces the incidence of breast cancer by more than 60%, up to 80% with calcium supplements.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2277319/pdf/mol14_5p0353.pdf

      Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin D Concentrations 40 ng/ml Are Associated with >65% Lower Cancer Risk: Pooled Analysis of Randomized Trial and Prospective Cohort Study

      https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141022164052.htm

      Finally: Missing link between vitamin D, prostate cancer

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076015300091?via%3Dihub

      Correcting the Vitamin D deficiency has been shown to reduce type 2 diabetes incidence by more than 50% and those taking the Vitamin D supplement lose 20 to 40 pounds, have significantly less depression, better balance, more energy, better skin, and so on.

      Vitamin D activates the Pilates’ core of the body. This system of tendons, muscles, and a ribbon like material that is under tension, is controlled by the lower brain. When the system is running at higher levels, more internal heat is produced. People feel good/better, find it easier to make decisions, they feel less fearful, and so on.

      Incidence rate of type 2 diabetes is >50% lower in Grassroots Health cohort with median serum 25–hydroxyvitamin D of 41 ng/ml than in NHANES cohort with median of 22 ng/ml

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076015300091?via%3Dihub

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      • #
        Ross

        Wiliam A – I think Ken D was trying to be funny/ sarcastic with the “viruses are racist” comment. Not sure it required such a long reply.

        110

        • #
          Ken Davis

          I think you may be right :-)

          40

        • #
          William Astley

          I do not understand where Ken or you, are ‘coming’ from.

          Do you understand the ‘science’, the ethics? Try imagining people dying or having life long health problems, due to covid. Pretend it was your friend or a relative. Do you not feel a connection with other people?

          To prove a case of criminal negligence…

          There must first be someone (or worse, an entire group of some ones)… in this case obviously those who are affected the most are dark skin people. They are dying or suffering due to a preventable deficiency.

          Secondly, there must be a duty to ‘care’ for those who are charged with criminal negligence. Who is responsible? If I know the truth, could I be responsible for thousands and thousands of needless deaths?

          If the problem was ensuring newly constructed bridges or new buildings were safe, it would be absolutely unacceptable that a deficiency would be allowed. In the engineering world, deficiencies are found and corrected. Buildings do not collapse, planes do not crash, cars stop, and so on. In the medical ‘industry’/health ‘care’ industry that is not true.

          Coronavirus: Black African deaths three times higher than white Britons – study

          https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52574931

          21

          • #
            PeterW

            William…
            The current methodology is like stopping sober people from driving, because some people drive drunk……. or banning skinny people from eating chocolate because fat people.

            Diet-related metabolic diseases are killing millions – they are the leading causes of death in most Western countries. Where is the legislation to protect people from their own ignorant (or stupid) choices.. Where is the legislation to protect those who cannot shop for themselves?

            The bridge analogy fails because personal health is NOT a public infrastructure.

            40

      • #
        greggg

        ‘Vitamin D in the prevention of Covid-19′ report from Mercola.
        https://media.mercola.com/assets/pdf/ebook/vitamin-d-in-the-prevention-of-covid-19.pdf

        10

      • #
        Graham Richards

        If you believe we ALL came out of Africa……..
        Well I’ve got abridge in Sydney for a bargain price!,,,

        50

  • #
    Rob Kennedy

    “psychological disturbances”. Most people would agree with that. The experts have tried their best to scare us to death. Most people seem to been scared enough to behave in totally unprecedented and irrational ways and have handed over their reasoning and will to persons they had never heard of before. The exception is Bill & Melinda, of course, we all know about them. I’m hoping and waiting for the “health” experts to snap their fingers and release everyone from this hypnotic trance.

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    • #
      Bulldust

      If the Dems win in November (shudder), the scare press will disappear overnight. It will be as awakening from a terrible nightmare.

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  • #
    Anton

    I’m 63, I’ve had covid-19 (I’m in the UK), and I have mixed feelings about all this.

    For me, week 1 of symptoms was like a heavy cold for 2 days, then a mild cold. Then symptoms disappeared for 2 days. Then they returned for 9 days like a medium cold, except I was waking up hungry and needed a late afternoon nap (which I normally don’t). At no time was I unable to work at my desk. I also lost all sense of taste. (Check that up with my friends…)

    I am informed that the first week was due to a generic response of my immune system, and the second week due to a learnt response to this specific virus. I believe I was waking up hungry and needed a nap because my immune system was working particularly hard.

    My medical history? I am in good health – a lifelong nonsmoker, on no prescription medication, hillwalker.

    The entertainment began after that. The clogging of capillaries and consequent inflammation anywhere in the body certainly make sense of the extraordinary diversity of aftereffects. In my case I had itchy skin on my back and shins, a bladder problem which meant multiple trips to the toilet in the night together with a bacterial infection that took antibiotics to shift, and a weird increase in water absorption from my lower gut which caused lower abdominal pain and constipation (despite a healthy diet with plenty of fruit and veg, and quality meat/fish). The last of these aftereffects took 10 weeks to go. As for my lungs, I can now walk up a fairly steep hill for many minutes deliberately rapidly and not feel more out of breath than if I were merely unfit (which I undoubtedly am at present).

    I now live as if I am immune to it, but nobody in the world knows how long for. (Is that information starting to become known?) Come the northern autumn I shall be making sure I am well up on Vitamin D.

    It nevertheless needs to be said that:

    1. Most people who die of it had underlying conditions and/or were of an age that meant they had a year’s expectation of life at most. The sooner you get used to the fact that you are going to die, the better – because you are. It’s only about when. Given the state of knowledge about SARS-CoV-2 when symptoms came back in my second week, I considered myself at significant risk at the time and it was a salutary experience.

    2. Estimates can be made of the rise in deaths due to economic recessions of varying severity, and these should be set against covid-19 deaths when governments decide their responses. So, also, should the dwindling of health facilities that deal with cancer etc, as healthcare facilities are redeployed to covid-19.

    3. It is clear that governments need to decide either to go for herd immunity, or to issue the population with 3 weeks of food rations and then say that anybody other than plumbers, healthcare workers and a few others seen on the street are liable to be shot, with airports and seaports closed to people (letting in essential goods only). Unfortunately, either scenario is impossible in practice for a modern democratic government, and unsatisfactory compromise and uncertain outcome are the present results.

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    • #
      Anton

      I’d add that the plague of 1665/6 in England saw 7000 deaths in a week, or seven times the covid-19 peak (immediately following lockdown) in a population many times smaller than today. Yet if you read the journals of people at the time you find that they disliked it (obviously) but they took it in their stride. Whereas we are going to be talking about our FEELINGZ for the rest of our lives. Western Civ has lost it. And I do believe that we once had it. What went wrong?

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      • #

        “took it in their stride”. Seriously? Historical records show lots of behaviour that is best described as fear and loathing. And the records make no mention of various other signs of stress and social breakdown because no one reported them.

        People were tough in my day.

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        • #
          Gary Simpson

          Look up the village of Eyam, Derbyshire. People were tough alright.

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        • #
          Anton

          “The records make no mention of various other signs of… social breakdown because no one reported them…”

          …rather than there not being any social breakdown to report. You know this how? Samuel Pepys and John Evelyn were in the habit of recording society, warts and all.

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      • #
        PeterW

        There is no doubt from the historical record that there was a certain amount of social dislocation. There are enough records of people seeking to allocate blame (sounds familiar) and prophets of dooms proclaiming TheEndOfTgeWorldAsWeKnowIt. (Just as familiar.

        But this is also a society in which you counted yourself lucky if even half of your children lived to adulthood. People did know that “ordure happens”. Childbirth was a major killer of adult women. There were no anaesthetics, surgery was more normally fatal than not……. and almost no-one expected Da Gubberment to fix everything. You were lucky if they kept the peace instead of oppressing the losers from the last Civil War.

        People enjoyed themselves. The arts and entertainment flourished. No decent historian actually talks about “The Dark Ages” anymore, because the evidence contradicts that narrative. So yeah, people were tougher, both because they had faced more adversity and knew that facing adversity was the only way to deal with it.

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        • #
          PeterW

          The above was a reply to Anton and Leaf.

          Any view of contemporary writings must keep in mind that writers have a tendency to record the unusual and readers tend to pay more attention to it. We are human. It’s what we do – not to mention the confirmation bias that prompts us to take more notice of things that validate how we would expect to feel in that situation.

          An example would be the historical record of The Western Front in WW1. We know – or believe we know – about the horror of mud, blood, barbed-wire, machine guns and endless shelling. That’s what we see in the movies. We wonder how anyone could stand it so when we hear of shell-shock or PTSD, we nod and assume that it must have been very common. Yet I grew up knowing two gentlemen who had been through both world wars… and both were mentally and emotionally uninjured. My Grandfather was an artillery officer who spent more time as a “High Value Target” (artillery prioritises enemy artillery) than almost any other Australian Unit, yet his war diary is astoundingly matter-of-fact. Entries like “another day at the office” or “carried on the war as usual” are typical, and while he did record “big shoots”, you have to compare dates and places before you realise that he was involved in some of the biggest battles in the British sector.

          A drama queen he most definitely was not.

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        • #
          Anton

          And we all have to face death! That was my deepest point.

          On another matter, by 1665/6 the losers of the English Civil War were oppressing the winners. If you want to know where modern parliamentary democracy came from, read the Putney Debates of 1647. These were held among factions of the winners. It is fashionable to disparage the Parliamentarians, but in 1660 under Charles II the laws back to the royal absolutism of the 1630s under his late father. When the English finally kicked out his brother in 1688 a condition of inviting William and Mary over was acceptance of the settlement for which Parliament had won the civil war 40 years earlier.

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          Orson

          C’mon Peter! The decline of literacy and therefore the loss of real historical experience is what made the Dark Ages dark.

          No real historian? My gosh, you oughta get out more. I edit “real historians” books for a living!

          01

      • #
        Serp

        The dereliction of universal education has finally caught up with and overtaken the West is what has happened; we Cassandras have bitten our tongues off.

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      • #
        Serp

        Anton @ #10

        My answer ended up at #13

        11

    • #
      RickWill

      Useful to have a first hand account. Thank you for that.

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    • #
      Rob Kennedy

      Anton you are one of the very few that I have heard from to give an account of your experience and I am glad that you seem to have come through it all with no major ill effects. Your general good health is probably the reason for that. I am interested though if you had a flu vaccine prior to getting the virus?

      30

    • #
      tonyb

      Anton

      Glad to hear you are recovering. You say

      “Come the northern autumn I shall be making sure I am well up on Vitamin D.”

      To that I would add people need to be safely outdoors as much as possible, ventilate their homes and also people need to be made much more aware of the consequences of their lifestyle.

      If you are overweight then you are much more likely to have life threatening diseases such as heart problems or diabetes, making you much more susceptible to the virus. If you are obese then the level of risk raises much further.

      People have got time to do something about their lifestyles. Most won’t. The NHS will be expected to pick up the pieces.

      50

  • #
    bobn

    Just when we thought all young people had been brainwashed by our corrupt education system, here is a ray of hope. An intelligent youg person.
    https://twitter.com/TONYxTWO/status/1275051388431667200

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  • #
    Mal

    How many people get some form of lung disease from passive smoking??

    Although we will learn more and more about covid 19 over time unless there is a reliable vaccination , we may have to live with this terrible disease.

    11

    • #
      David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

      G’day Mal,
      I thought from what you said yesterday that you had some confidence in vitamin D3, and the quick acting cures I’m advocating. Those cures stop the virus from replicating and stop the infected person from needing to go to hospital. So, if widely used can stop its spread very rapidly. Why wait for a vaccine (which may not eventuate anyway)?
      Cheers
      Dave B

      30

      • #
        Mal

        Hi Dave
        I have confidence in vitamin D
        I have hope in the other treatments and I would like to see them introduced asap
        I’m not sure our health approval protocols would allow it.
        In the end, it’s a healthy body with a good immune system that has the best chance of surviving and pulling through

        Also don’t dismiss the psychic side of life
        A healthy positive mental attitude I believe can play a big part in dealing with this disease (dis-ease).

        30

  • #
    Brian the Engineer

    I was looking at the Covid Statistics and there is something I don’t understand.
    I summed the new cases for the last three weeks and get a total of 271 cases, yet the total active cases is 503?
    I wouldn’t think any new cases before 3 weeks ago would still be active.
    Does anyone have an explanation for this?
    Cheers

    20

    • #
      Crakar24

      Yes Brian this virus can linger for a long time hence the point of this thread, its not like the flu

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      • #

        Brian, read’s Anton’s personal experience at #9. Ten weeks.

        Many of the severe cases struggle for two months. Recoveries have a very long lag.

        91

        • #
          Brian the Engineer

          Cheers will do!

          10

        • #
          Anton

          I’d be interested in what happens to clogged capillaries. Does the body attempt to clear them, or does it junk them and construct new ones – and how long does the process take? The answers to these questions are surely known, but are in slightly more depth than the internet is good for a layman to plumb.

          30

        • #
          Brian the Engineer

          So does that mean we would have to have everyone lock down in quarantine for 10 to 12 to clear the virus from the community or is it only transmittable for 2 weeks?

          20

        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          Jo, are they struggling with preexisting conditions or with a corona virus? it would help if there were more granularity.

          11

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            The truth is we do not know in my opinon, and that each country and hospital report corona differently making data less than useful. Sure, i heard recently someone who survived corona and had a medical bill for over one million dollars. I believe this poor person was in a country where medical treatment was privatized.

            12

        • #
          PeterW

          My father took three years to recover from Ross River Virus….. why are we not locking down over that?

          31

          • #
            RickWill

            why are we not locking down over that?

            No need – we just kill the carriers; female mosquitos. It is not transferred by humans.

            30

      • #
        bradd

        Uncle of a friend was on Ruby Princess and caught Covid in a big way, although he wasn’t tested until he returned to WA. 78 years old but no particular pre-existing conditions. As of 2 weeks ago he was still in hospital and unable to walk due to circulation problems. Couldn’t speak for weeks.

        Strangest thing is that his wife, 82 and with diabetes, was unaffected.

        70

        • #
          PTR

          refer my post in: Freedom is closed borders, crowd limit now “30,000″ @ 17.3.3 Wonder if he still has a decent crop of hair?

          00

    • #
      RickWill

      Sweden srill has someone in intensive care after 91 days. I guess it is possible to hang by a thread for a very long time.

      Average period from infection to resolved, meaning death or recovery, is around 30 days.

      Italy was a bit different – they got down to not treating people older than 60yo. At its worst, the oldies making it to hospital died without treatment.

      43

  • #

    I may be run over by a bus if I cross the road. I may be eaten by a shark if I swim off Bondi. I may be stung by a bee or get struck by lightning if I go outdoors. I may fall off my bicycle if I ride downhill and then my brakes fail. The consequences are too awful to comtemplate. I think we should shut everything down.

    103

    • #
      RickWill

      I have survived three high speed car crashes all in excess of 120kph involving multiple rollovers; walking away from all three without a scratch.

      I have had a 3.5m shark between me and a boat when skin diving. Normally not a problem but my friend had speared a big fish through the gut and it was spreading blood in our vicinity making it very attractive to the sharks. We almost drowned each other trying to climb back into the boat.

      I have survived numerous bee stings.

      I have had the hair on my head stand vertical in a storm front but not actually struck by lighting. My neighbours house has been struck by lightning that was powerful enough to take out our modem. He lost his modem as well but the Big Bang was his rooftop air cooler exploding.

      I have had numerous incidents with bikes, powered and pedalled. The worst was being thrown over the handle bar at 70kph on a dirt bike due to a problem with the front guard then having the bike land on me.

      None of these threats are as dangerous as COVID19 as they are visible threats, easy to understand. The sad fact is that CV19 can be eradicated in a matter of 20 to 30 days if everyone took due care. The scary part for me is that there are enough silly people in Victoria who do not care enough for others to avoid hosting the virus and passing it around.

      We now learn in Victoria that non-english speaking immigrants are getting their advice in their own language from social media. The strong message they are getting is that CV19 is a scam. So all the effort and care of most Victorians being undermined by a few who have sought residence here but now unwilling to abide by the local rules; being swayed by people living in the regimes they battled to leave behind.

      74

      • #

        Oh dear, you are accident prone, aren’t you? But it must be wonderful to use that experience as statistical proof that crashing cars at 120, swimming in pools of blood with sharks, getting stung by bees, being catapulted over the bike handlebars at 70 etc are nothing to worry about. I am glad you have pointed that out. Have you told anyone else?

        BTW, would you also then say, using your statistical methods, that my uncle who contracted C19 and tested positive in Europe, was then confined home for 2 weeks before getting out and about right as rain, proves C19 is nothing to worry about? I ask merely for information.

        31

        • #
          RickWill

          No more accident prone than others who are as active as I am; its probability. Just enough care and luck in surviving to talk about my adventures. And these are a long way short of the more spectacular incidents.

          Your uncle was also lucky – so far. As Jo’s article points out he may yet have the worst ahead of him.

          20

      • #
        Anton

        Blimey mate, going for the Darwin awards?

        51

  • #
    Bulldust

    O/Topic, but I thought some might want some good news with all the negativity circulating:

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-24/abc-announces-cuts-to-programming-and-jobs-funding/12384972

    What a shame, 250 ABC jobs to be axed.

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    • #
      GD

      I was shocked to read that too. Their ABC is actually getting rid of the abysmal ABC Life and some of the so-called ABC Comedy shows.

      The luvvies will be shrieking about this.

      20

  • #
    DonS

    Hi Jo

    This virus is really proving to be difficult to get a handle on. Do we even really know the infection rate? From this case of the AFL footballer who tested positive questions need to be asked about these tests. In this case the guy has had 4 tests in the last week recording 2 positive results and 2 negative results, what’s going on here? 50% failure rate! Might as well toss a coin to decide if you have it.

    How many of the thousands of one off tests done on the Australian public are valid? At the moment we are seeing a rise in the number of infections in the USA yet the number of hospitalisations are remaining pretty constant. Does it mean that the virus is changing into a less dangerous form over time as you predicted Jo, or does it mean we are getting a lot more false positives?

    So many questions for medical science to address and hopefully the billions of dollars being spent will eventually sort some of the mess out.

    70

    • #

      Agreed. There is so much we don’t know or can’t be sure of.

      In the USA the rise in cases, but not in deaths is likely due to:
      1/ Better treatment.
      2/ Younger cohort catching this. (Perhaps they’ve stopped sending old folks back to nursing homes?)
      3/ Whole USA is getting more Vit D in summer.
      4/ The lag. US cases only started rising around June 10. Perhaps the rise in death rates is coming.

      61

      • #
        MP

        5/ increased testing

        42

        • #
          Lucky

          Testing is worth little unless it reliably shows who has it, and, if that person gets effective treatment which would not otherwise be given.
          We know that tests are inaccurate, and in many nations effective treatment is banned.

          There may be a small benefit to testing, if it were accurate, if carriers were quarantined.

          01

          • #
            MP

            But it has everything to do with the increases in cases, it is the common denominator.
            1 in a hundred test positive today, 100 tests done =1
            1 in a hundred test positive tomorrow, 200 tests done =2
            1 in a hundred test positive the day after, 300 tests done =3

            Through the media the government announce “400% increase in 3 days, everyone back under your beds”

            Its all about the tests, 1% false positive rate, whats the actual number?

            01

            • #

              there must be an awful lot of coincidental follow up positives then.

              10

              • #
                MP

                Yeah a lot of manipulated numbers thrown about, the footy player 4 tests two positive 2 negative. Black water and another NRL player.

                What are the tests actually testing for that is COVID-19 specific.

                00

      • #
        Environment Skeptic

        5/ And that in the USA, medical treatment is mainly privatized. Big difference.

        31

        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          Rumination: Apparently, treating the flu is more expensive in the USA than perhaps in Australia. is this true?

          11

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            if someone could explain the medical system in the USA with respect to corona it would help.

            01

            • #
              Lucky

              Q1. Treating the flu. To know the cost you would need to know the price of the vaccine and the cost of injecting. This would be next to impossible in Aus as there are so many cross-subsidies.
              Perhaps a real private patient can answer?
              In the US there are more private patients so determining the cost should be easier.

              Q2. As a WA resident, I could not explain the medical system here.
              I do know for certain that if I got the CCP19 the only effective medication would be forbidden to me.
              In the US I understand I could get it across state lines, and for about $25 per course.

              00

      • #
        DonS

        Hi Jo

        If I was a political conspiracy nut I might think the increase in positive tests in the US could be of political advantage to a particular party in an election year. But we all know science and statistics would never been used in such a fashion to achieve a political outcome don’t we? Just saying :)

        10

    • #
      greggg

      ‘Coronavirus likely five times more common and less deadly than assumed’
      ‘immunologists at the University of Zurich have discovered that people with a severe course of disease have detectable antibodies in their blood, whereas mild cases hardly ever do. But more than 80 percent of Covid-19 cases are mild.’
      https://swprs.org/coronavirus-antibody-tests-show-only-one-fifth-of-infections/

      20

    • #
      Rob Kennedy

      I posted this before, but the test seems to be very troublesome. Maybe the tests used now are better? The President of Tanzania had tests sent for analysis: a goat, a sheep, a pawpaw, motor oil and a few others with human names. All came back positive except for the motor oil. The original report I saw many weeks ago from a couple of Chinese medical people said that there were far too many false positives and negatives. Perhaps getting a witch doctor to have look at the entrails of a chicken might be more accurate?

      60

  • #
    James Murphy

    It would be interesting to know how many people who have been put on ventilators suffer from after-effects in some way. Someone getting progressively worse to the point of needing to be on a ventilator in intensive care is likely to have some psychological impact, whatever illness caused it.

    20

    • #

      Ventilators are just awful. So many people get cognitive problems there is even a name for the syndrome. “ICU Delirium”

      “About 50-70% of all ICU survivors suffer from a cognitive, psychological or functional impairment after their ICU hospitalization. About 30-80% of ICU patients develop cognitive deficits, making it a serious but under recognized problem.
      https://deliriumnetwork.org/ltci-icu-delirium-blog/#:~:text=Long%2Dterm%20cognitive%20impairment%20(LTCI)%20from%20ICU%20delirium&text=About%2050%2D70%25%20of%20all,serious%20but%20under%20recognized%20problem. “

      We enrolled adults with respiratory failure or shock in the medical or surgical intensive care unit (ICU), evaluated them for in-hospital delirium, and assessed global cognition and executive function 3 and 12 months after discharge…

      Deficits occurred in both older and younger patients and persisted, with 34% and 24% of all patients with assessments at 12 months that were similar to scores for patients with moderate traumatic brain injury and scores for patients with mild Alzheimer’s disease, respectively.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922401/

      People on ventilators are not just unconscious, they are in an induced coma and a state of paralysis so that they don’t try to breathe in opposition to the machine. If awake they describe feeling like they are suffocating, so their blood oxygen levels may be bordering on unsafe the whole time.

      Every risk factor known is raised in immobilized people so they are always on blood thinners (though not on high enough doses in the case of Covid.).

      101

      • #
        RickWill

        I wonder about Boris?

        62

        • #
          tonyb

          Boris never actually got put on a ventilator. But running a country, negotiating Brexit , dealing with the pandemic AND having a new baby would be exhausting for the fittest of people. He has not looked his old self until the last week

          80

          • #
            Anton

            Plentiful ironies in this tale; it is thought likely that SARS-CoV-2 reached the British Cabinet in general, and thence Boris Johnson, from Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, who tested positive before any of them.

            40

          • #
            GD

            He has not looked his old self until the last week

            He’d look a lot more like his old self if he dropped the kowtowing to the climate change scam and the renewables boondoggle.

            40

      • #
        Jojodogfacedboy

        The Illusion of comfort is actually working against clearing the lungs as gravity is an issue in filling the lungs with fluid.
        First aid safety when finding a person passed out is to lay them on their sides as not to fill the lungs should the person pukes.

        20

  • #
    Another Ian

    Another view of the glass – via Zerohedge though

    “Stanford Prof: Median Infection Fatality Rate Of COVID-19 For Those Under-70 Is Just 0.04%”

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/stanford-prof-median-infection-fatality-rate-covid-19-those-under-70-just-004

    20

  • #

    The State of Victoria is calling in the military to enforce the removal of personal liberty. See the press reports:

    “The Australian understands Victoria has requested 500-1000 ADF personnel, including to help with hotel quarantine.”

    So no longer even pretending that Victorians are a free people.

    71

    • #
      PeterS

      The ADF would be put to better use if they quarantined the Victorian government from the rest of the state.

      112

      • #
        GD

        Hopefully, the ADF is better than the Vic police at stopping ill-informed protests and also not harassing innocent individuals sitting on a park bench or playing a round of golf.

        22

        • #
          MP

          They are doing what they are told to do by their government as will the ADF.
          We do not want our armies going against the people for any reason, we want them fighting for us, with us not against us.

          Change will only come about by regaining control of our governments.

          10

    • #
      RickWill

      About time the State got serious with CV19 quarantine breaches. NT used the ADF and they got rid of CV19 weeks ago.

      Will be the second time this year that Victoria has requested assistance from the ADF.
      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-03/navy-starts-bushfires-evacuations–in-mallacoota/11838424

      43

      • #
        PeterS

        I presume that means the ADF will be used to stop any future protests by the usual suspects. Let’s see.

        72

  • #
    PeterS

    I can’t believe it. An increase in Victorian cases has already triggered another panic stock piling spree at the supermarkets. Madness.

    20

  • #
    yarpos

    maybe, could be, seems like we happily fall into the alarmist language when it suits

    line up the litany of doom claims since this started , it would streatch a fair way and people compete for their 15 minutes

    20

  • #
    Another Ian

    For the covid record

    “Did lockdowns really save 3 million COVID-19 deaths, as Flaxman et al. claim?”

    https://judithcurry.com/2020/06/21/did-lockdowns-really-save-3-million-covid-19-deaths-as-flaxman-et-al-claim/

    10

    • #
      RickWill

      Too early to call. I expect there are still many more deaths to come.

      The IHME projections at the beginning of lockdowns had it all over by August. The latest projections are now out to October and deaths continuing to climb past that date:
      https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america
      There are some countries with large populations yet to see their peak in the death rate.

      00

  • #
    Art Vandelay

    Persistent symptoms – consistent with post-viral illnesses – even after a mild case of covid19 are being reported. This UK Infectious Diseases specialist has written a series of blogs and has been featured in a number of news articles.

    Anecdotally, it’s looking like around 10% of people will go on to develop some sort of post-viral syndrome like ME/CFS which is consistent with other viruses such as EBV.

    Plenty more info here. It looks like the NIH in the US will be studying this closely. Let’s hope they don’t screw it up.

    20

  • #
    MrGrimNasty

    “It is never a good idea to let a mystery virus with likely man-made “Gain of Function” changes run free in the population.”

    Any debilitated/elderly/infirm person that gets a moderately serious illness is highly likely to end up less healthy than they were before – again perfectly mundane/normal. It’s why the flu vaccine is so valued for the elderly, it delays the inevitable spiral of decline to death.

    As I said before, my mother has lived more than a decade with seriously damaged lungs after ‘ordinary flu’, it’s scary, she went from a fit elderly person able to walk 10 miles with ease to going blue, arm cramps, gasping – after 200 yards, and that is the best she will ever be now.

    I would be the last person to downplay a serious illness that caused that, but you have lost all perspective on this matter.

    Most people who get ? will recover in a few days to less than two weeks, but some people will develop complications (such as pneumonia) as a result of ?, some of which can be life-threatening and result in death. Sinus and ear infections are examples of moderate complications from ?, while pneumonia is a serious ? complication that can result from either influenza virus infection alone or from co-infection of ? virus and bacteria. Other possible serious complications triggered by ? can include inflammation of the heart (myocarditis), brain (encephalitis) or muscle (myositis, rhabdomyolysis) tissues, and multi-organ failure (for example, respiratory and kidney failure). ? virus infection of the respiratory tract can trigger an extreme inflammatory response in the body and can lead to sepsis, the body’s life-threatening response to infection. ? also can make chronic medical problems worse. For example, people with asthma may experience asthma attacks while they have ?, and people with chronic heart disease may experience a worsening of this condition triggered by ?.

    ? is of course Flu, not CV19.

    It’s long been suspected Flu can cause neurodegenerative disorders.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3982831/

    And if this study were CV19 and not ‘bird flu’ you’d be posting that up.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17497-6

    52

  • #

    I’m disgusted with the JoNova site now. You’re just extending the insanity by hyping “worst news” reports, that are designed just to scare people, not help them confront what real danger there is in the virus (and NOT to young people — even those “in their 40s and 50s” talked about in the main post are people who no doubt did little effective to help themselves and let the disease progress to a late stage before even seeking medical help. Their own ignorance, of how to strengthen their own immune system when confronted with the disease, was their own failing. Of course, the vaccination-obsessed immunologist industry is happy to treat the entire population as just so many brainless idiots, who have to be controlled like lab mice (and experimented upon, by all of these incompetent “experts”).

    If you don’t know enough to debunk the incompetence (face masks? ridiculous) and the political treason against the existing order (the rioters in support of Black racism are not criticized, or even reminded, for abrogating their lockdown rules entirely, wantonly), you should just stop whining about it.

    I have already written about protecting oneself from this relatively mild disease (for the vast majority of us) in one or two earlier comments here, I won’t go into it again here.

    24

  • #
    Jojodogfacedboy

    Reminds me of the song…
    Gloom, despair, agony on me,
    Deep dark depression, excessive misery,
    If it weren’t for lad luck, I’d have none at all,
    Gloom, despair and agony on me.

    Desperate money people are trying to use the excuse of mental health is preferred to possible physical health in opening up all of the economy.
    You can entice many “experts” with the right amount of cash…
    So, I have no trust in the media or any politicians.

    12

  • #
    Bernie Kelly

    Hi Jo
    Long time fan and follower
    I am a retired Intensivist, and long term problems following debilitating illness is well described particularly in older patients. I frequently told patients to expect the symptoms described for up to 6 months. Depression is also quite common
    It is still too early to know what the long term effects will be, and if these effect differ from any other serious viral illness eg influenza or indeed many other serious illnesses
    People are already distressed by the pandemic. Terms like “may be harmed for life” are unscientific and unhelpful

    11

    • #

      It’s useful to get your input Bernie. Thanks.

      I’m repeating the phrases from the article, with Clinical Directors of the NHS even using the phrase “shocked”. They appear to feel the damage they are seeing on CT’s may be permanent.

      The audience here is perhaps not your usual crowd. Feedback I get suggests few are distressed here.

      10