JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Solar Owners worried Big Brother AEMO wants to turn off their panels at noon in emergencies

Last November at lunchtime 64% of the entire generation of South Australia was coming from across thousands of small generators that the Grid Managers had no control of, and that clouds could wipe out. This is the junk conglomerate infrastructure that billions of dollars in forced subsidies have created.

The AEMO (Australian Energy Market Operator) has no control over the vagaries of two-thirds of the electricity generation. Audrey Zibelmen has described it as “”It’s almost like driving without your headlights.” She wants new panels to get “smart inverters” which means they can be dumb servants — controlled by the AEMO, just in case there is an emergency — lest the state suffer another System Black. They also want old panels to get the new style inverters when the next replacement is due.

Who could have seen that coming (only anyone with an engineering degree).

Poor solar home owners are feeling pretty miffed. They didn’t realize their panels were never economic, a burden on the grid, and they’ve been riding on the backs of fellow Australians for years. And after reading this ABC story (below), they still won’t know. So it’s a complete surprise to them that the green electrons they produce are expensive and unwanted, and so useless — worse than useless — the Energy Market Operator wants to have the power to turn them off at their peak time of day.

Craig Kelly M.P. has a much better plan. He thinks if China can cancel our barley because of alleged subsidies that don’t exist, we ought to axe the subsidies that do exist for the Chinese solar panels and save that $1.7billion dollars a year which hapless Australian electricity consumers are forced to cover installation costs of.

Concerns over plan to switch off household solar panels when grid is unstable

Ange Donnellan ABC

Thanasis Avramis has been an advocate of solar panels since he had them installed in 2008.   “In the last 12 years we’ve probably earned about $9,000 worth of feed-in tariff. That’s been a very substantial reduction in the cost of our electricity,” Mr Avramis told 7.30.

Thanasis is not happy and blames the regulator and the network. He says it would make “Australian families pay for the mistakes of others”. Which would be not much different to his solar panels where Australian families pay for him to get cheaper electricity.

Since 2010, the number of panels across the nation has grown from 100,000 to 2.2 million.

But the proliferation is at times leading to grid instability, prompting the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) to call for the switch-off measure.

AEMO CEO Audrey Zibelman said it would only be used in emergencies

When we have way too much solar there’s so little load we can’t even manage to keep the balance with the generators, and in that context there’s always a risk that the system could fail and will go black.”

ABC advertising writers (called journalists) manage to find a quasi industry spokesman to say exactly what the ABC staff want to hear — including his own big conspiracy theory:

Energy analyst Bruce Mountain said solar helped keep prices down.

When Australia had only 100,000 solar panels wholesale prices were $35 per megawatt hour. Now that we have two million, we pay $80. That’s not the kind of “down” most people are thinking of.

He is worried that once the ability to switch off solar systems is added, there could be pressure to externally control them more regularly.

“The threat lies not with the market operator, but the control mechanisms that they establish may well be taken advantage of by other forces who want to throttle back rooftop solar to look after their own commercial interests,” he told 7.30.

Bruce Mountain is director of the Victoria Energy Policy Centre (VEPC). He is in a sense, a de facto employee of The Victorian Government, an entity that benefits from renewables propaganda.

All those new “smart inverters” — add them to the bill for solar power.

Handy questions journalists could’ve asked

  1. Is there any country around the world which has a high penetration of intermittent renewables and cheap electricity? Name them…
  2. If renewables are so cheap, why is China secretly building more coal power plants?
  3. Australian electricity wholesale costs were around $30 per MWh for years on the national grid, then we added 2 million solar panels. Shouldn’t the prices have gone down?
VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
Rating: 9.4/10 (97 votes cast)
Solar Owners worried Big Brother AEMO wants to turn off their panels at noon in emergencies, 9.4 out of 10 based on 97 ratings

240 comments to Solar Owners worried Big Brother AEMO wants to turn off their panels at noon in emergencies

  • #
    tonyb

    simple. To compensate for the Electricity co turning off the solar panels at noon and depriving the grid of power and the owners of revenue, you only need to turn them back on at midnight when the power is needed and owners can then still receive their income. Oh…wait…

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    • #
      bobl

      It’s pretty, simple, shut off my feed in, pay compensation at the nameplate rate of my system for the period it’s off. You can’t go changing the rules mid contract.

      717

      • #
        yarpos

        Your nameplate capacity is probably never generated let alone feed in. Its rather an optimistic ambit claim starting point for compensation.

        241

        • #
          bobl

          Breach of contract and all that

          212

          • #
            yarpos

            Go big or go home i guess :-)

            30

          • #
            jpm

            What contract do you have concerning the sale of excess rooftop PV generated electricity? The large generators (coal-fired for instance) of electricity do not receive such.
            The purchase of such electricity from rooftop generators is a favor to customers and not contracted as far as I understand it. Please enlighten me!
            John

            160

            • #
              Robber

              The contract is with the retailer, and they must buy the solar feedin at a price set by State regulations that are reviewed every year or so. But the first installations are still being paid 66 cents/kWhr, while most common now is 12 cents.

              50

            • #

              Bobl is kidding himself.
              I have panels on my roof and no binding contract at all. They can vary the feed in payments whenever they want and I have no comeback.

              51

            • #
              yarpos

              A friend of mine has quite a juicy contract with the retailer on his overkill panels installed years ago at peak incentives. He is getting something like $0.24kWh FIT. He will notice it when it drops back to the rate du jour in a few years. The situation re FITs has changed over time so nobodys individual situation is the only truth. We have another version, we have solar but never applied for FITs, I am really only intersted in offsetting my usage.

              30

      • #
        robert rosicka

        If compensation was given it would be paid for by increased electricity tariff so it would be a lose lose situation.
        On the other hand we were encouraged to install solar and some of us at a premium price because we did it years ago .

        50

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          This isn’t really about the individuals who were misused by previous governments.

          It’s about the forces arraigned behind the lie; those who gain by getting elected, get cushy vague promotional jobs with government and ultimately the beneficiaries at source of the Renewables Industry.

          The stories coming out of Australian media, endorsed and paid for by government mostly, are a national disgrace.

          We look at the past and ridicule other nations for having been taken in by unworthy leaders.

          We have nothing to crow about, our politicians have taken us as The Gullibles for decades now and will continue to do so until we wake up. Won’t happen anytime soon.

          Happy Covid 2020.

          I hope next year is better.

          KK

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        • #
          RickWill

          rr
          If intermittents were banned from the grid from today, how would your investment over those years hold up?

          My grid connected solar has paid for itself more than twice over in the 10 years it has been installed.

          As it stands there are about 5M voting Australians with rooftop solar on their premises. That is some broad political clout. If it comes to Turnbull, the younger, having unprofitable wind farms or deliberately turning off solar systems and upsetting 5M voters I think I know which way it will go. May have been different with Turnbull, the older, as PM bot not with ScoMo.

          Also it would require a retrofit on my system to control it. In fact I do not know if any existing systems in Australia have remote system control capability. I guess they could use smart meters to shut the whole supply down to individual households with rooftop solar but that would be illegal without due process; therefore not applicable in an emergency.

          23

          • #
            robert rosicka

            Rickwill I’d be at a massive loss considering when mine went in it was $12k for my size system .
            Just how much I’d need to work out , as for would I be peed off well yes but I’m sure someone would start a class action somewhere .

            10

            • #
              robert rosicka

              Just done some rough estimates on my system which was installed early 2012 and is 5kw .
              Our quarterly bills at that time were pushing $900 ( dearest) and $650 Ish (cheapest) and in those 8 years prices have roughly doubled I’m told .
              I’m now averaging about $600 per quarter and last quarter was just over $500 .
              So for me it has been a significant saving especially given that around that time was the start of big increases in electricity prices in Victoriastan according to this link .

              https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0026/79172/FINAL-Report-2.pdf

              Cost of my install was near enough to $12k.

              00

              • #
                AndyG55

                “Cost of my install was near enough to $12k.”

                Is that what you paid, or the real cost ?

                30

              • #
                robert rosicka

                Subsidy was $2300 Andy so add that on , it was labeled as RECS which I take to mean renewable energy certificates.

                00

          • #
            Bright Red

            Rickwill. The AEMO curtailing of roof top solar generation is going to happen. With more and more roof top sola being installed the grid will fail unless the AEMO can issue directives in relation to roof top sola to ensure grid stability. The other alternative is to not install anymore rooftop sola. How do you think that would go down voters as well.

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            • #
              RickWill

              The AEMO curtailing of roof top solar generation is going to happen.

              It mat happen with new systems with the financial assessment based on some estimate of curtailment. Without that forewarning, AEMO would be in deep water politically to change the rules for those now connected. Also it would be very expensive to retrofit central control of existing rooftop solar.

              The rooftop solar automatically cuts out on over voltage, which should happen before the system closes down on over voltage. Newer invertershave progressive reduction in output based on line voltage compared with on/off control with older inverters like mine.

              The other alternative is to not install anymore rooftop sola.

              The most politically favoured option is more storage. I note that part of AGLs replacement plan for Liddell included a 240MW battery – capacity not given. They also plan to use the existing generators as synchronous condensers so that will provide substantial stability:
              https://www.agl.com.au/-/media/agl/about-agl/documents/media-center/asx-and-media-releases/2017/171209nswgenerationplandecember2017.pdf?la=en&hash=BB2DAB602AE1D1AECD85D4F2881EA665

              Weatern Australia has always limited the amount of rooftop solar connected to its isolated grids in the northwest. There it has been first best served. Those late to enter missed out.

              Can you imagine the political mess if AEMO told Dan that his precious State solar subsidy was encouraging the wrong behaviour. I doubt Audrey will have much credibility if she comes out and says there is too much rooftop solar. She has been one of the strongest advocates for so-called “renewables”.

              Anyhow the Tax Office has made a AUD65M error in the budget requirement for CV16. That is an OVERESTIMATE. So there is a lazy AUD65bn that has already been budgeted for looking for a home. Would buy a few big batteries – maybe enough to handle the rooftop peak.

              06

              • #
                Bright Red

                RickWill. Sorry for the lack of quoting as I am doing this on my phone. I don’t agree with the idea that we have already budgeted for I.e borrowed the money so let’s spend it anyway. How about just not borrowing it.
                Batteries are simply not currently a viable solution. They have relatively short life spans with decreasing capacity as they are used/age . Still cost far more than they can recover (which could change if electricity prices keep increasing and battery prices eventually come down) and most importantly do not generate power but instead use power in their operation requiring more power overall to be generated to cover the battery losses. Also don’t mention manufacturing, mining, toxic, disposal etc. this is a band aid on a band aid approach to what was a non problem.
                There is no doubt a lot of ass covering is going on as none of the players want to admit fault.
                With WA and limited solar Installs for smaller grids all they have to do is say that you can only connect a new installation if you have not done so before as the current installations are retired due to old age. That way the benefit of virtue signalling can be shared around.
                They (The idiots that lead us) are starting to realise the issues around Intermittent Generation and are grasping at straws (batteries).

                90

              • #

                Rick Will
                You are kidding. Please do the maths on the battery costs before you start spouting them as a solution. The QLD battery that is proposed stores 150MWhr and this is a tiny fraction of the usage in the state each day, and it costs $90 million or more.

                My panels can generate around 35-40kW hr per day. So on a good day when the problems with over supply will occur this wonder can only take up the power from 4000 homes.

                How many batteries will we have to put in to soak up the power from all those other houses in QLD. And remember that transmission losses will take up their share here. Probably around 100 batteries will be needed – $9 billion!!!

                Also the batteries will have poor utilisation – only being deployed a fraction of the time. Who pays for these batteries?

                This just does not work…

                100

              • #
                GD

                So there is a lazy AUD65bn that has already been budgeted for looking for a home

                Great! So spend it on building some new HELE power stations.
                Unfortunately, that won’t happen. Angus Taylor has made it clear that the energy focus is on renewables.

                40

              • #
                yarpos

                Some massive mountain out of molehill stuff. Pretty much all they have said is they need a plan to control rooftop solar.

                00

            • #
              Bright Red

              Aussie

              The batteries would also have to be dedicated to this task and be flat at the start of each day in anticipation of being fully charged which may or may not happen.

              30

          • #
            robert rosicka

            Mind you if solar farms were constrained at the same time I wouldn’t object to my solar being shutdown for a few hours .

            20

            • #
              RickWill

              Solar farms are already being constrained. That is part of the issue. The investment in grid scale solar has dries up because it cannot compete with rooftop. Coal are happy to run at negative price at lunchtime but grid scale solar cannot afford that.

              14

              • #
                Kalm Keith

                ??

                00

              • #
                yarpos

                Anyone know how it practical terms the output of a solat farm is constrained?

                Open circuited? dumped into a load? oriented away from sun if tracking? just wonder how they implement partial or total constraints.

                00

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        What if the idea of solar panels had never been brought of in the halls of government? Excuse me,in the offices of regulators/managers of your electricity supply??????

        For a nation with so much good clean burning coal to think solar panels are a solution to anything except dishonesty of those who can lord it over you is downright stupid.

        Why sell it all to China and suffer yourselves?

        130

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          What would TonyfromOz have to say about the situation?

          60

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          What would TonyfromOz have to say about the situation daresay he would be highly critical.

          You have gotten yourselves into a mess a it will e hard to ge out of it.’

          50

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          What would TonyfromOz have to say about the situation daresay he would be highly critical.

          You have gotten yourselves into a mess and it will be hard to get out of it.

          50

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Jo,you need a good programmer to solve this duplicate comment problem.

            I could not see the first of the 3. I was told I had already said that. so I modified it and it turned up twice and the original was finally visible.

            60

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Roy, the only difference between politics in Australia and the U.S. is size.

            Apart from that they are both nuts, corrupted and not worried about actual government, just ripping off the system.

            At least you have a few positives there that we don’t have but you still have Nancy and recently resurrected Bill Clinton staffer Madeleine Albright to balance things.

            Then on top of that we all have Covid19.

            I look forward to Next Year.

            80

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              I wonder if Donald Trump is the plus sign we thought he was. He still doe not follow the rule — first shut up; then think {do your homework}; then speak. And it’s hurting him.

              It is acceptable for a president to stay silent until he knows what he’s talking about.

              He does the right things but his mouth is beginning to be a liability.

              The man is president of the United States. He has the best expertise in the world available to him- — better than all his enemies combined. Why doesn’t he use it?

              51

              • #
                Ted O’Brien.

                Roy I like Trump’s style. He doesn’t say what The Swamp expects. This should force them to think.

                We too have our swamp. I think you have a good knowledge of our system. We too have a government which was duly elected against all expectations of The Swamp. For this our newish Prime Miinister must get much of the credit.

                In the early days of the COVID crisis a leading Swamp Dweller interviewed the PM on TV. (“Our” ABC.) He attempted the usual monstering of the Conservative politician by trying to interrupt. Scott Morrison, without so much as raising his voice, just refused to be interrupted and kept on talking until the Swamp man shut up. It was marvellous to see the monster getting monstered.

                I don’t think he’ll try that stunt again. Nor his swamp mates who saw or heard about it. Once he recovered from the shock and pulled himself together he looked a much more professional journalist.

                So I am holding out hope that our current leaders may deliver us a better educated commentariat.

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              • #
                truth

                There’s expertise and then there’s expertise…who to trust in the end?

                Much of the criticism of Trump on Covid19 has been due to attribution to Trump of the massive mistakes of Saint Cuomo and idiot De Blasio…and especially of Saint Fauci…who’s supposed to be Trump’s adviser yet Trump has been more right than he on moves to make and when to make them.

                Remember Fauci was more in line with [in the thrall of?] WHO and their Chinese Communist masters re the threat to America back when it could really have been curtailed.

                Communist China knew the threat in intimate detail and wanted the US to suffer and take absolute maximum damage…us too…Trump saw that and closed borders early…and then of course was labelled xenophobic.

                Almost no one in punditry would give Trump credit for anything…to their eternal discredit…not his.

                He should do what he thinks is right after listening to ‘experts’…his judgment’s better than most of theirs.

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            • #
              yarpos

              Not sure Keith, we are divided that is part of politics but I dont think the divide is anywhere deep as it is in the US. We are probably closer to the Canucks with our excessive moderate-ness that is slowly wearing thin.

              00

        • #
          yarpos

          because politics is owned by the “save the planet crowd” who are desperate;y trying to ignore the results of the great CO2 experiement currently in progress

          we do actually have a lot of sunshine and wind as well as gas, coal and uranium. I dont see anything wrong with solar and wind used at rational levels and in sensible application (like real no alternative off grid). However , like many places, we are over egging it because of Green alarmist fantasies.

          70

          • #
            truth

            We have intermittent sunlight and wind that can intermittently charge batteries and PH storage.

            For the whole NEM we’d have to have a massive overbuild of everything …and rebuild the overbuild on a frequent and regular basis …intermittents plus props… to have any sort of reliability…and no affordability because the taxpayer would be forever paying for idle capacity to be available for when weather-dependent intermittents fail…or are the carpetbaggers just going to sit idle and lose squillions…uncompensated…. when not needed?

            Of course the intermittents have a use in remote areas but IMO this government as well as its alternative have sold Australia out ..knowing they’re doing it for a massive lie in total abrogation of science…of Australia’s sovereignty…of commonsense…kow towing not just to Socialist despots of the UN and Europe..but to the Chinese Communist dictator who’ll receive Australian taxpayers money as a ‘developing’ nation even as it menaces us and the world over Covid19 and takes over the South China Sea with hostile intent…and will soon bring Hong Kong to its knees.

            Trump and his administration have no reason to trust a country that’s so gutless and unscrupulous as to build its whole future on lies… in capitulation to the very ideology that threatens every tenet the democracies of the world uphold.

            Biden and the Green New Deal is another story.

            How quickly our children’s prospects can change.

            30

  • #
    Robert Christopher

    National Grid Facing Unprecedented Wind Power Surplus
    https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2020/05/21/national-grid-facing-unprecedented-wind-power-surplus

    SNAP! Similar articles at at same time!

    230

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    A brilliant and timely post Jo, following on from the nauseating editorialising around Angus Taylor’s statement heard coming from the ABCCCC radio broadcast yesterday.

    Now you report;

    “Energy analyst Bruce Mountain said solar helped keep prices down.”

    The person making this statement is engaging in in essentially False Advertising.

    The intention is obvious, the “facts” have been deliberately clouded, or something.

    Misrepresentation of the ugliest kind.

    We Do Not have a functional Democratic government working for us.

    Remove all self promoting Parisites from our management structure and save us.

    KK

    420

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Why is an unqualified political appointee running our electricity system?

      Why do political appointees get to run our Australian Universities into the ground.

      When our PM stands for what the latest opinion poll suggests to him is votecatching, we need to ask: Do we have a leader?

      KK

      301

      • #
        Curious George

        Australian Universities are in a noble company. The University of California just voted to stop using SAT and ACT tests. “The mission remains the same: to give all students, and especially low income and first generation students, opportunities to show their strength”.

        No mention of “education” or “excellence” – these words are forgotten. A settled science is a dead science.

        90

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Yes….very much like being able to convince your enemy ( i.e. us ) that all is good and dandy and its a lively days at the beach just before a tsunami hits the beach.

      The powers that be appear to be runing down our energy infrastructure to make us vulnerable to the smallest disruption whike considering glorious soviet style solar panels will bring forth glorious revolutiin in broken power system.

      Weve taken a Landcruiser power system and turned it into a useless and flaky Tranant.

      Apparently we now has “refugees” from Hillarys old Lefty crew involved in the demise of our power system…..

      150

      • #
      • #
        truth

        So right.

        We have Hillary’s preferred energy Czar designing and running our forced transition to 3rd world poverty …and Hillary’s nefarious fixer funding [via his billionaire comrades]and overseeing campaigns to annihilate Australia’s coal industry ….and regularly visiting to give pep talks to the Marxist activist footsoldiers who have driven all but one of Australia’s big four banks out of the business of lending to any company that has > 25 % interest in coal.

        How long before the banks deny loans to individuals and families who have the temerity to hold or have any connection to …investment in coal or coal-related business?

        These are the people …the lies and the tactics and anti-Australian ideology our government is endorsing and facilitating in its Paris/UN-dictated ‘transition’.

        20

    • #
      truth

      Bruce Mountain is a committed renewable energy enthusiast…but seems in recent times to be having trouble making the authorities’ lies and manipulations seem plausible.

      He seems to be torn between conscience about the demolition of Australia by the ‘transition’ and his commitment to the Global Socialist ideology that demands the unprecedented ‘massive dislocation and deprivation’ that ‘transition’ requires …in the words of Rudd’s ‘former’ Communist guru/adviser who also said of the hoax that…

      ‘the social and political consequences will be volatile and unprecedented’…. but worth it because CAGW offered ‘a great opportunity for the resurgence of the LEFT’.

      It becomes increasingly clear…IMO…that Scott Morrison is…always was… of the LEFT and more dangerous for Australia than Turnbull…more cavalier yet stealthy..relentlessly disdainful…but all cloaked in preachy daddy-knows-best palaver.

      141

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Scomo,

        Just when you see something sort of O.K. from him, another field of windmills pops up somewhere to bring us back from the dream.

        A more principled person might have refused to sign away the seven and a half tonnes of gold that went to the Great Big Barrier Reef and got disparu in the coral right next to that University.

        KK

        171

        • #

          Just when you see something sort of O.K. from him, another field of windmills pops up somewhere to bring us back from the dream.

          Keep in mind here that any new wind plant which opens up is not at the feet of the current Government.

          Wind plants are at least five to seven years (and in most cases longer, some a lot longer) from submission of the thought bubble plans to power delivery to the grid.

          Tony.

          200

          • #
          • #
            truth

            It’s Morrison who has licensed the first stages of planning for the big one though…the Star of the South offshore wind farm that unions and the ‘environmentalist’ vandals Friends of the earth at al are clamoring for…..that will require a huge spend on extra transmission.

            The more taxpayers’ money that’s spent the more that will have to be spent ongoing…. as the RE industry holds the country hostage …pay up to shore it up or the system collapses and Australia goes down with it.

            90

      • #
        el gordo

        ‘ … Scott Morrison is…always was… of the LEFT and more dangerous for Australia than Turnbull…’

        That is wrong.

        ‘… more cavalier yet stealthy..relentlessly disdainful…but all cloaked in preachy daddy-knows-best palaver.’

        Morrison had greatness thrust upon him, after the coup, so he naturally thought it was god’s calling. He is modest and humbled by the responsibility of high office. Keep in mind that the ordinary folk think he is doing a pretty good job through the adversity of drought, bushfires and pandemic, now its a trade war.

        ‘Australian miners are expected to face new restrictions selling coal into China as Beijing begins directing power plants to purchase domestic product instead.’ SMH

        93

        • #
          GlenM

          I can’t say what Morrison’s true colours are, but he and his dithering energy minister have to get cracking on sensible energy outcomes.With more renewables coming on line I cant see the price getting too much below it current price. WE NEED cheaper power if we are going to resurrect some of our secondary economy.

          170

        • #
          Chad

          If Morrison is nothing else, he is at least a politician, and his reason to exist is to gain power and Govern.
          He knows that in order to do that he has to win elections by appearing to offer what the majority of people want.
          I just hope he is astute enough to realise the limited success of the Poll predictions and forecasts,..and find better sources of information.
          But , i think i figured out their latest scheme..
          Spend a few months destroying the Economy whilst blaming outside influences…..
          …….then engraciate themselves by claiming to orchestrate a “pathway” to rebuild the same economy again,…without the rigid constraints of traditional Economic Budget restrictions !

          53

          • #
            el gordo

            The PM is not a charismatic leader, just a pair of steady hands.

            ‘Spend a few months destroying the Economy whilst blaming outside influences…..’

            You’re out of your depth.

            ‘What I find really interesting is this rule change might pave the way for Aussie nuclear power. The availability of gigawatts of reliable green nuclear energy would make any renewable energy investment a tough sell. All we need is someone brave enough to take on the bureaucrats and big green, to make it happen.’

            Eric Worrall/wuwt

            74

            • #
              Serp

              Nuclear is a bigger racket than renewables with ridiculously long lead times and shorter life than a coal plant and then there’s the decommissioning… the cabal of idiot procurement officials that delivered us the Barracuda project will make an even worse job of a nuclear build. Let’s stick to coal.

              30

              • #
                truth

                I agree!

                I think we should have nuclear subs because nothing else gives Australia the capability it needs…but not a nuclear electricity system.

                What we need IMO is the most modern clean reliable coal-fired generation available with Carbon Capture and Conversion not CCS… to complement it…plus some gas….so that we remain affluent enough to be able to research new technologies.

                We need a leader and government with the guts to conduct audits….require integrity and truth from our universities… institutions and big business…and the guts to expose the lies….instead of demolishing our children’s futures in deference to them.

                We had such a leader but allowed the footsoldiers of the Global Socialists to destroy him.

                20

              • #
                Chad

                Serp
                May 23, 2020 at 12:53 pm ·
                Nuclear is a bigger racket than renewables with ridiculously long lead times and shorter life than a coal plant and then there’s the decommissioning

                New Gen 4/5, / modular /MSR/etc/ etc…nuclear technologies could change all that, and bring a whole new dimention to power generation in the next ten yrs.

                00

        • #
          shannon

          “Australian miners are expected to face new restrictions selling coal into China as Beijing begins directing power plants to purchase domestic product instead.”

          Well ..no surprises here…
          The increased volume of coal ship movements, in and out of the Port of Newcastle over the past few weeks, indicates China is “busy” stock piling before it announces another Trade import cut…!

          60

      • #
        Analitik

        Bruce Mountain is a committed renewable energy enthusiast…but seems in recent times to be having trouble making the authorities’ lies and manipulations seem plausible.

        Yes, you notice he didn’t actually refute the need for a means for curtailment of residential solar output and had to resort to vague threats of big brother “other forces” hijacking the capability for “commercial purposes”. I guess avoiding the need to pay ruinous feed in tariffs and grid support costs falls into the category of “commercial purposes”.

        But his formal training could not let him deny the necessity of curtailment for grid stability as penetration of rooftop solar reaches dangerous levels in South Australia.

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    dinn, rob

    “Why is an unqualified political appointee running our electricity system?” You should not, KK, stand in the kitchen lest you can face a few sparks: and here they are, come hell and high
    https://balance10.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-yahoos-have-not-paid-much-attention.html

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    ivan

    Maybe if those with solar panels also installed large expensive battery banks in their garages at their own cost it wouldn’t matter if AEMO did switch off the link to the grid when necessary they would still have power.

    Just why any of them are connected to the grid is beyond me. Did some stupid politician think that would be a good idea ans buy votes?

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    • #
      yarpos

      and yet again , the “answer” to the self inflicted problem of so called renewables is to add yet another layer of complexity and management systems. This ever expanding hous of cards will bite us one day with cascading failures.

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      yarpos

      I dont think the AEMO is talking about switching the grid connection off, they are talking about commanding the invertor off so no solar power reaches the grid. They are grid connected because people want the best of both worlds, reduced consumption/feed in tariffs + security of the grid.

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        truth

        Prosumers can’t do without the grid…not without unaffordable banks of batteries…and without their connection …the grid would become increasingly a billion dollar white elephant.

        The authorities haven’t solved the problem that arises once they’ve persuaded an increasing number of Australians …residential and commercial… to install solar PV….ie who pays for the grid and the expensive props like synchronous condensers and FF backup they’re about to spend unprecedented billions in TPM to extend.

        Of course the answer is that this Leftist government and the inevitably Socialist governments that follow it…will borrow more and more from the Communist Chinese dictatorship that’s laughing as it ensures it will have copious baseload security in coal..nuclear and massive hydro…while it tightens its death grip on a totally weather-dependent mendicant Australia.

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        Chad

        yarpos
        May 22, 2020 at 7:55 am ·
        I dont think the AEMO is talking about switching the grid connection off, they are talking about commanding the invertor off so no solar power reaches the grid. They are grid connected because people want the best of both worlds, reduced consumption/feed in tariffs + security of the grid.

        No, actually they are suggesting commanding the inverter off so no solar power is available to the installation owner !
        Thus requiring the household /installation owner to use grid supply in order to increase grid load and avoid a critical low demand shutdown …
        In other words ,..balance the grid loads.at critical times.

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          Graeme#4

          This doesn’t seem to make sense Chad. Surely the critical times would be when there is a shortage of energy, not a surplus?

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          • #
            Chad

            GraEme4….
            No, they are looking for MORE load on the gris around midday.
            Their problem is what to do with grid capacity at peak solar generation times,
            There is only so far you can turn down a Gas or coal generator plant and the largest source of solar is Roof Top
            Quote from Zeiblemans statement…

            If solar panels were switched off by the electricity distributor, households could still draw electricity from the grid…….

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            • #
              Graeme#4

              Perhaps Zeibelman needs to read her own report a bit more closely. I don’t believe that statement was in the RIS document.

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              • #
                Serp

                Audrey won’t necessarily have got around to reading any given report produced in her name.

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        Graeme#4

        Yarpos, I think you are correct, though it’s not clear from anything I’ve read so far. This seems to make more sense.

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          Graeme#4

          OK, after sitting down and reading Appendix A of the AEMO RIS, it now makes more sense. The interesting sections and pages in Appendix A are A.1.2 Page 6, A4.1 Page 30, and the actions proposed on pages 52 and 53. Need to also obtain a copy of AS/NZS 4777.2:2015 that deals with inverter design and operation, as this is the Standard that AEMO want to change. I urge folks to read Appendix A in detail to fully understand the issues.

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          • #
            truth

            Desperately applying patches.

            It seems to me solar home-owners will have to upgrade and extend their systems compulsorily for AEMO to have any chance of the required visibility and control to keep the NEM stable.

            Some owners probably won’t be able to afford it …so the taxpayer will end up paying for it as in SA.

            infinite complexity and yet 80-90% of the NEM generation is still from coal with a little bit of gas and hydro.

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        • #
          yarpos

          Dont really think it matters either way , we are talking about something that would be in play probably less than 0.1% of the time, yet people are getting wound up. I guess its the principle of the thing as they say, or perhaps the thin end of the wedge.

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          • #
            Chad

            ….we are talking about something that would be in play probably less than 0.1% of the time,…..

            They seem determined to make this fairly radical change.
            I suspect they intend to use it more than you would like.
            What is being proposed is effectively to give AEMO access to your bank account whenever if needs a little more cash !…..by depriving you of the use of your own solar system.
            I would recommend all solar system owners go out and buy a spare current model replacement inverter, before they make these changes compulsory for all new inverters. !

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            • #
              truth

              But for AEMO to be able to control the system …owners are going to have to have the prescribed inverter it seems to me…and that requirement may change as numbers and problems grow…plus everything they have on their system…all specs and their total load will have to be ‘visible’to AEMO…and approved by them presumably.

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      Graeme No.3

      Ivan:

      “Did some stupid politician think that would be a good idea?”
      YES. We have a surplus of stupid politicians but we haven’t found a way of shutting them down,

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    Just Thinkin'

    An easy out for the AEMO Ponzi Scheme.

    Open the inter-connectors TO South Australia…..and lock them open…

    Let South Australia deal with a problem that THEY created.

    Don’t forget, they BLEW UP a perfectly good Coal Fired Power Station.

    Countries import Australian Coal. You mean South Australia couldn’t
    get ANY Australian Coal? Really?

    And look at all the uranium they have.

    As they say, “Common Sense ain’t very common.”

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      OriginalSteve

      Yes but glorious Soviet thinking of South Australia is much “superior” to the west…

      As one Scot who had worked around e world building infrastructure for 3rd world countries once remarked to me ( after the foreign people who built the infrastructure were booted out of the country in question )

      “Dont worry, after they run it all down, we will be invited back in to fix up their cockup”, basically inferringn it was like dealing with incompetent petulant and foolish children…..

      Same same…

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      yarpos

      I thought the “answer” in SA was more interconnectors. Wasnt the benefits of windy goodness to be extended to NSW?

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    Serge Wright

    The best solution is to allow the grid to go into system black. After a short period of time enough people will start to understand why China sells us these devices at enormous cost to our citizens but uses coal to generate it’s own electricity.

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    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Or Hydro.

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    • #
      GD

      The best solution is to allow the grid to go into system black. After a short period of time, enough people will start to understand why China sells us these devices at enormous cost to our citizens but uses coal to generate it’s own electricity.

      The vested interests such as politicians, bureaucrats, greens, and activists will never allow that to happen.

      They’ll reckon it’s all the fault of aging coal power stations and demand more renewables to solve the problem.

      They are already pursuing this line of attack.

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    Zigmaster

    Whenever anyone claims renewables are cheaper I make the obvious statement. If A equals cost of renewables and B is cost of base load , and A can’t exist without B then A can never be cheaper than A plus B. The real problem is the government never argues that we should actually bite the bullet and stop all renewables and build only base load power whether that be coal , gas or uranium. Forget even trying to do anything about emissions , not because it’s futile for Australia to do anything but because it is all based on a false premise. There is no dangerous man made global warming/ climate change and if there was we couldn’t do anything about it anyway. It’s time to actually reprogram our population, audit the BOM and get some balance onto the ABC/ media.Whilst clearly renewables are a problem even for greenies like Michael Moore the real problem starts from the criminalisation of CO2 and grows from there. So 1. Establish that the theory of Global warming / climate change is wrong 2. Show people how data has been manipulated and adjusted to fit the narrative. 3. Tear up all climate agreements.4. All countries to only use the cheapest , most suitable base load power for them.
    In one process we get rid of global warming and expensive intermittent electricity.
    You have to start to argue the case. There is no middle road that works . We have to start reprogramming now .

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      Kalm Keith

      Well put. The only viable option for a just future.

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      truth

      I agree with all of your points Zigmaster…but the trouble is all of that has been attempted to no avail …mainly because so long as we have corrupt LW journalists who censor out all the information that might move Australians to demand the raw data…the BoM audit…the truth about the far worse GHG emissions …SF6 and NF3 from wind and solar…the huge amounts of CO2 emitted in the manufacture of a wind turbine…the legacy of environmental destruction ….the fact that RE will be a drain on Australia’s economy forever because it’s some sort of Ponzi scheme with Australia hostage to the carpetbaggers …not passing the EROEI test and therefore on borrowed time before collapse…etc etc the Australia people and those of other countries will just go along with the feel-good until it’s all too late…and the government will hide the massive cost in off-budget categories so Australia just becomes ever more indebted to China…. and spivs like Taylor will crow about the actual electricity bills going down….as debt and deficits go up.

      Tony Abbott tried to start the process of revealing the hoax of the millennium via BoM audit and paid for it not just with his PMship but his livelihood…an assassination that I believe Morrison is primarily to blame for ….since he delivered the coup for Turnbull who could not have achieved it without him…and then twisted the knife whenever he could as Abbott tried to exercise his freedom of speech rights in subsequent years.

      The British House of Commons’ forcing of the UK Institute of Physics to rewrite and cleanse their initially scathing report on Climategate and the University of East Anglia climate academics [ the high priests of the CAGW hoax]…the UK government’s insolently sham inquiries led by people with huge vested interests in RE…similar treatment at Albany State in the US when mathematician Doug Keenan accused their scientists of fudging temperature figures for China and was treated with abject disdain …not even permitted to put his case…then the treatment of Peter Ridd..Clive Spash …Bob Carter and Murry Salby at Australian universities and CSIRO….tells me nothing will change so long as the LW journalists are free to ply their trade with totalitarian disregard for truth……awarding themselves the right to censor the information to ensure the people get only the news that will enhance their own LW groupthink point of view.

      Journalists are the key.

      If we all clamored every day against their censorship …and in particular if we demand …many of us… constantly…that Morrison tell us exactly why Australia must be the sacrificial goat that will end up as the dumb poverty-stricken country…the former energy superpower trying to survive with the world’s only 100% weather-dependent intermittent electricity system…and if Australians begin to see that their safety nets like the PBS drug scheme and NDIS and security in general are all at risk….it might eventually cut through.

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    Peter Fitzroy

    So that investment in batteries in SA and in Perth (as examples) does not count? Surely that is the ideal role for those systems.

    Let’s also not forget the raft of energy subsidies (both public and private) available for low income households.

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      robert rosicka

      Peter SA is constrained quite often and WA have mooted that any additional solar farms need co generation to ensure supply 24/7 .
      Also the Northern Territory have flagged the same system so how much cheaper is it to produce electricity if you need to account for back up when the sun doesn’t shine ?
      Where do these subsidies come from ?

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        Peter Fitzroy

        Tesla community batteries in Perth, type electricity subsidies into your search engine. In SA there is a massive build out, most of which will come online this year.

        Subsidies aside, why is it easy to fund solar, wind, battery installations, but not coal? is it ROI, or avoiding a stranded asset

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          robert rosicka

          You can build a windfarm or solar farm anywhere and cut down as many trees as you like with little to no green tape .
          Want to build a coal fired power station would take years of green tape and protests from the green blob including court challenges etc so not exactly like for like is it .

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            Maptram

            Exactly. I saw a headline on the renew economy website a couple of weeks ago that a massive solar farm proposed for the Pilbara has received environmental approval. The plan is to export the electricity to Singapore and Indonesia. Made me wonder what environmental approvals would be required for the undersea cables that would be needed to export the electricity.

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            • #
              robert rosicka

              Maptram when the likes of Bob Brown protests the building of a windfarm in tassie we know they have a different set of green tape and no hoops to jump through .

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              Chad

              Maptram,,
              That proposal has been bobbing around for several years.
              Every time it pops up it has changes in size , cost, location, and justification !
              It was discussed on here a week or two back.
              The current one is for 11-15 GW of solar +wind farm,.. ( yea ,.sure !) …to supply “local industry “ ?… a massive Hydrogen production facility for export. ..but when you read the actual proposal document, there is NO mention of undersea cables to Indonesia etc.. Why ?.
              https://asianrehub.com/
              I think this proposal has also been kicked down the track a little in the Gov’mt’s latest roadmap for future energy ?

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              • #
                Graeme#4

                Quite right Chad. The proposal has changed from just supplying Singapore to now supplying Singapore and Indonesia. The fact that the cable would have to go through Indonesian waters might have something to do with this latest change of plans.

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            Peter Fitzroy

            Robert, I’m talking about funding – there is none. At the moment, there is a proposal to have the government fund a coal station in Q’land.

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            • #
              AndyG55

              At least the government would get something back for the money, rather than having to keep paying and paying like they do with wind and solar.

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          Chad

          Peter Fitzroy
          May 22, 2020 at 10:42 am ·
          Tesla community batteries in Perth, type electricity subsidies into your search engine. In SA there is a massive build out, most of which will come online this year……

          “Massive build out “ ??
          Maybe you would like to actually quantify that ,..
          and then tell us what you are comparing it to that makes you believe it to be “Massive” ?

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          AndyG55

          The battery creates ZERO electricity.

          It is making a motza because it is under constant use trying to stabilise the SA grid.

          And no, eventually it will be wind that will be a stranded asset.

          Common sense will prevail eventually .

          Time to start replacing many of the current plants is rapidly approaching, with all the environmental litter that involves.

          And only continued subsidies will allow that, just like only massive subsidies allowed their idiocy in the first place.

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            Peter Fitzroy

            So you have a situation where you have excess production from roof tops, and you have batteries which can absorb that production. That is exactly what a community battery like the ones Tesla has installed in Perth is designed to do. If you had looked it up you would know that.

            Glad you agree that there are plenty of subsidies for the lower paid households.

            And if you believe wind will be a stranded assert, I have a coal mine to sell you.

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              AndyG55

              Most of the subsidies go to the well off already.

              I guess you knew that though.

              Coal will ALWAYS be needed, in large quantities, even if nuclear power increases.

              Wind and solar have had ZERO effect on coal production or coal fired power stations

              China is massively increasing it coal fired fleet, as are many countries around the world.

              If you know of someone willing to sell their worthless coal shares at near zero price, sure I’ll take them. ;-)

              I hope you have shares in wind and solar farm. ;-)

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              AndyG55

              You do know most of Perth’s electricity comes from gas, not coal, don’t you.

              Community batteries are a highly subsidised or state purchased experiment.

              They will have as close to zero effect on CO2 as its possible to get.

              They are a non-event.

              How long until their efficiency drops and they need replacing.. who pays for that ?

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                Graeme#4

                Actually Perth uses around 40% coal, 40% gas, with additional gas peakers brought online for peak periods. These gas peakers are usually located along the main N-S gas pipeline that runs through Perth. It’s a pretty effective setup, and the fact that WA is not connected to the “National” grid helps maintain system stability and costs.

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              James Murphy

              I still don’t see how installing more layers of hardware into a system can make electricity cheaper.

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              • #
                Graeme#4

                It’s the plentiful supply of reasonably cheap gas that underlies the reliability and energy costs in the south-west of WA. Other states could have the same benefits if they frakked their own gas. It’s worked a treat in the U.S.

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              yarpos

              Wind is totally a stranded asset, about every 15-20 years

              Batteries absorbing excess power, more wishful thinking, more complexity and management and yet another “assett” that will need replacing in a relatively short time.

              Still the faithfull can wave their hands and just pretend its all under control, just like they did in SA.

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          AndyG55

          “community batteries in Perth, type electricity subsidies into your search engine”

          LOL.. do you realise how comedic that statement is, are you trying for deep satire?

          “Subsidies aside”…
          again with the deep comedy….

          Easier…. DOH !… because of huge subsides, as you just pointed out.

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          Graeme#4

          Peter, I believe that these “community” batteries in Perth are paid for by the state govt, and thus not directly charged to the community folks. I think that if the community folks were fully charged for the battery installation and were aware of its limitation, including its short lifetime, they would gave said no.

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          • #
            AndyG55

            each one does maybe 50-100 houses, so somewhere around 10,000 needed to cover Perth

            Lithium shortage, child mining for cobalt.. Horrendous pollution in the manufacture.

            The greeenie way !

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          Serge Wright

          You need to watch “planet of the (loony left) humans”. It explains the nasty down-side of those batteries, along with how much fossil fuels are required in the mining, processing and assemby stages. It’s also worth picturing the sick and dead children in Kenya when you consider a battery farm. If you think that’s ok, good luck with that !

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            AndyG55

            He refuses to even admit to the facts of the horrendous damage and pollution and human child degradation involved in the manufacture of wind and solar.

            He either ignores it or just doesn’t care.

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        Ben

        Hi Robert, the bit you wrote about WA requiring co-generation with solar farms is interesting. Do you have any more info? You can reach me here: ben@energywrap.com.au

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          robert rosicka

          Actually it’s almost the same story just from Dec last year and only mentions WA Ben .

          https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-08/authorities-look-to-control-house-rooftop-solar-power-in-wa/11773436

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            Graeme#4

            Thanks Robert, that article clarifies the proposal, which is to control the power fed BACK to the grid from the home solar, NOT actually control the home solar feeding power into the home. That subtle difference is not made clear in this post. And at only 7.1350 cents for feeding back energy, I don’t see a problem with this proposal.

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              robert rosicka

              Just remember that’s from last year and was from WA .

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                Graeme#4

                Just finished reading the actual AEMO Appendix A Robert, which provides a LOT more detail. It is unfortunate that this post headline seems to give a wrong impression of what the AEMO are actually trying to achieve. In fact, the RIS provides more case studies from the recent SA “island” experience, though they did quote an interesting situation example when a low total power demand of around 1300 MW occurred at a time when Perth’s home solar was generating around 760 MW.

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                robert rosicka

                I haven’t looked at detail between the two proposals but the Northern Territory idea was the best of the lot although only really aimed at solar farms .
                The NT proposal was a solar farm had to provide the same amount of electricity output 24/7 , or words to that effect .
                As for home solar here on the east coast if they turn off the inverter during unstable periods so be it but the situation just gets worse the more that’s added .

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              Chad

              Its quite simple..
              AEMO wants the ability to switch off domestic solar generation when it feels necessary. That will FORCE those solar consumers to use GRID supply to maintIn grid stability.
              This is the only reason they need alterations to inverter functions,
              If they just wanted to stop solar FEed bac to the grid, they alreaddy have varios ways to do that without consumers knowing.

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                Chad

                From a reputable inverter supplier…

                As of October 9 2016, all grid-connect inverters installed in Australia must conform to AS4777.2:2014 and allow disconnection from the grid if they receive a local signal on one of their hard-wired terminals – the dreaded Demand Response Enabling Device DRED0 signal. But for remote disconnection, the grid needs to get to your smart meter terminal from its master control room.

                So, stopping solar FIT is already “built in”.
                What they want in the new proposal is ti have remote control over the panel output .

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      GD

      Let’s also not forget the raft of energy subsidies (both public and private) available for low-income households

      Just ask a pensioner about the ‘raft of energy subsidies’ available to them.
      They amount to b*gger all!

      Pensioners, low-income workers, and the unemployed are truly suffering under the government’s destructive energy policies.

      In 2007, a one or two-person household paid about $30 a fortnight for electricity. Today, they are paying three times that!

      So much for your ‘raft of subsidies’.

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    Peter Fitzroy

    [Duplicate post]AD

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Guess we can all turn our pool pumps on and they could soak up that free energy …

    Better to turn off pool pumps than build power stations: AEMO

    “The chief executive of the Australian Energy Market Operator says paying householders to turn swimming pool pumps off and for extra electricity collected from their rooftop solar panels is a smarter way of ensuring no power blackouts happen than building new power stations.”

    https://www.afr.com/business/energy/better-to-turn-off-pool-pumps-then-build-power-stations-aemo-20181002-h164s0

    Wait. What?
    >> Don’t more solar panels prevent droughts and heatwaves?

    “She said AEMO was factoring in the drought conditions in NSW into its planning on how to meet summer peak demand, and was convinced that heatwaves in Australia were extending for longer periods when they happened than in the past.
    “Heatwaves are longer in duration,” she said.
    Ms Zibelman said solar panels were less efficient on days of extreme heat however.”

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    Rowjay

    Thanks to Tony from OZ for keeping us up to date over the years on the crazy Eastern-Oz power situation, and the aneroid website for a real look at the power mix happening at the moment. I notice that wind at this moment is producing only 1,400 MW of its nameplate 6,900 MW capacity – down around 20% AGAIN!
    I throw another solution into the mix – mandate that the commercial wind and solar generators GUARANTEE a contract amount of power to the grid 24/7. Let them install batteries at THEIR cost to maintain THEIR contracted power output – not the poor taxpayer. Households with solar panels should also be mandated to install smart batteries and feed back into the grid only as controlled by the AEMO. Only then will we appreciate the true cost of wind and solar.

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    Bright Red

    The stopping of small scale solar from exporting to the grid in an emergency is just the edge of a complex tangled web. There is no doubt that in the future to keep the grid operational the AEMO will need full control of ALL generation assets including home sola and batteries. The ability to just send whatever you generate to the grid have come to an end. They currently have some and will also be after more control of your consumption as well. I have no sympathy for those that rely on highly political government handouts.
    Which reminds me time to order my diesel generator.

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      Graeme No.3

      Bright Red:
      Small scale solar doesn’t go into the main grid, it is used within the local neighbourhood. Its effect is to reduce demand from the grid, but when there is a cloud, or the sun sinks in the west, the resulting demand has to be filled by a sudden increase in grid generation. A big enough surge could destabilise the grid by dropping the frequency, which would have a knock on effect (e.g. wind turbines require a stable grid or they cannot start up or keep running) blacking out the State. That’s why Electranet (the SA grid controller) is spending $160 million to install reactive storage** this year. That will be paid for by an increase in electricity costs.

      **very like a generator in a coal fired power station except this doesn’t generate electricity, just stores it. Coal fired (and CCGT) plants supply this service free of charge.

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        Bright Red

        Graeme, technically the grid connects at your meter box so I am not quite sure what you mean by main grid. I can only assume it is anything above 22KV. There are technical issues due to the impedance of a residential grid connection and the maximum voltage a solar inverter can legally generate (otherwise it will blow up all your connected appliances) that limit its ability to export its power to the higher voltage parts of the grid. I am sure that in some areas with high rooftop penetration this is already happening and the sola inverters are limiting their power output so as not to exceed there maximum permitted voltage. With low penetration of rooftop solar into the existing system the power can as you say only be used locally displacing the power from larger generators including wind from further up the grid with the consequences you mentioned. The problem is that Installing smart transformers at the final distribution level (usually 22KV) that can change turns ratio for power flow in both directions as required can let the locally generated sola power onto the main grid causing even more mayhem and this is what the AEMO wants to control. Transformers that can alter their turns ratio are not new and have been in use for some time but only for power flow in one direction. Replacing/upgrading all transformers along with adding big flywheels (aka reactive storage) is a cost due to the rollout of sola and wind.
        With sola and wind the incidental costs just keep adding up and up and up so about time they paid there own way.

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          Chad

          The problem is that Installing smart transformers at the final distribution level (usually 22KV) that can change turns ratio for power flow in both directions as required can let the locally generated sola power onto the main grid causing even more mayhem and this is what the AEMO wants to control.

          B Red..
          I dont think that is what the proposal is….after all, they could do that, and “control” solar input to the HV grid , already without us knowing.
          What is suggested is. “Smart Inverters” ..behind the meter… to control solar output at private houshold level.
          This is just one step further than the similar “Smart Meters”. Systems that have been installed already and enable the service provider to control individual household power supply and solar output back to the grid.
          But this latest proposal would empower them to fully shut down the solar panel system and force the household to consume grid supply power.

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            Bright Red

            Chad it’s a bit more complex than using auto tapping transformers and allowing the voltage at the sola inverter to rise so high the inverter self limits its power output. Who was limited would be determined by their inverter settings and the line impedance back to the transformer plus other loads in the system. Much better and safer to regulate at the power source directly. You are correct of course in that they also gain additional control but I doubt they will force you to consume grid power In the near future but are more interested in the fact residential sola is now a major generator that can supply outside the neighbourhood and is not under their control so they can’t issue directives to ensure grid stability.

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              Graeme No.3

              Bright Red:

              Agree as my inverter has a limit of 256V set after which it shuts down for about an hour. In early days (when I was looking at the output) I saw several shutdowns which I took to be due to too much solar installed nearby (both neighbours, the 3 houses opposite all with solar).
              However with my new inverter (the old one lasted 7 years) it records peak voltages and I was surprised to see 272V on the line in. My neighbour reported one of 270V a few weeks previously.

              By main grid I mean the high voltage supply. In this town we have at least 3 ‘neighbourhood’ grids. Thus I can have a blackout but the house in the street behind may not.

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                Bright Red

                Graeme surprised to see 270V on a nominally 240V system. While that is around the max peak allowed for under a minute the longer term max is around 253V. This is an ever increasing problem as the inverters are being tuned to the max limits to try and push the power back down the grid. You are correct in that if you have lots of nearby solar you are more likely to have the inverters shutdown or limit power production and be operating at higher than desirable voltages.

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            Graeme#4

            Chad, based on my interpretation of the ABC article, I don’t believe the proposal is as you state.

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            • #
              Chad

              G4
              Zeiblemans words fron the interview article…

              …..”.What we’re looking at is for people to put in these smart inverters and to have standards in place so we could do it now. We have to take these actions in the next few years. This is not something we can wait on,” Ms Zibelman said.

              If solar panels were switched off by the electricity distributor, households could still draw electricity from the grid.

              “When the inverter operates to disconnect from the power system the solar stops operating. …..

              If the just wanted to prevent solar feedback to the grid, that can already be done via “smart meters”
              But to shut off the solar completely, they would need to control the inverter.
              Hence this proposal……..and note the “urgency”. ??

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      • #
        Analitik

        Small scale solar doesn’t go into the main grid, it is used within the local neighbourhood. Its effect is to reduce demand from the grid

        That’s the theory and the reason why limits are placed on the size of residential solar systems plus the need for approval before a system is installed. But it is based on assumptions of the local demand which can be exceeded during favourable conditions. This is why local transformers are beginning to fail prematurely because the local line voltages are occasionally exceeding the output voltage of transformers, resulting in reverse power flows which the ones used in resdential and commercial zones are not designed to cater for.

        The greentards on Whirlpool are often complaining how they aren’t allowed to install systems to suit their “go big or go home” mentality and see it as a plot against their “right” to be sustainable at a (subsidized) profit.

        https://www.energynetworks.com.au/news/energy-insider/is-too-much-solar-to-blame-for-voltage-issues/
        https://build.com.au/rapid-increase-solar-installations-potentially-overloading-grid
        https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/grid-voltage-rise-solar/

        But even without this, the negative demand created by residential solar systems makes the grid susceptible to collapse if clouds quickly cover a large percentage of the region, suddenly increasing demand
        (as happened in Alice Springs, late last year https://www.katherinetimes.com.au/story/6534032/shine-comes-off-solar-from-alice-springs-failure/)

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  • #
    Penguinite

    As usual, The Liberal Government is all talk no do. If we have to have Labor policies we may as well vote them (Labor)in and let them manage the disaster. Lost my vote Scomo!

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    • #
      el gordo

      On page 26 of the Report you’ll see the door has been left open for nuclear and coal fired power stations. At the moment there is no need to get the brainwashed masses unduly upset, they vote too.

      The idea is to give government time, through technical innovation, to come up with the best energy mix. Cheap gas from WA is a certainty as exports to northern China come up for review.

      Global cooling has begun and within a couple of years this will become obvious, so we’ll be heading into the election with lots to debate.

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      • #
        Graeme#4

        I believe that it would be relatively easy to connect the NW gas, along with the NT gas, to the eastern gas network via Alice Springs. But surely the best solution is for Vic and NSW to frack their own gas?

        40

        • #
          el gordo

          On the question of fracking in NSW and Vic, the farmers and graziers are locking the gates against multinationals because there is nothing in it for us.

          With a humongous amount of gas in WA in would be politically popular to pipe it to the east coast.

          10

          • #
            Graeme#4

            And this is also a standout difference between Aust and the U.S. I believe that folks in the U.S. obtain around 20% royalties from the gas taken from under their land. It’s way past time that Aust. folks were offered the same deal.

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  • #
    truth

    I would add at least one more question…

    Why have you…the Australian government decided to deliberately harm the Australian people…to cripple Australia by making it the only modern nation on the face of the earth to be totally dependent on a 100% weather-dependent electricity system…with no baseload electricity forever…no energy security in our children’s futures…when all of our competitors and trading partners….every single one of them…will have multiple choice energy…with RE …nuclear…coal…gas…biomass….huge hydro plus multiple interconnectors to neighbouring countries that have those technologies ….ie baseload security forever? Why??

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    • #
      Travis T. Jones

      “There is no doubt that we are ruled by evil men and evil women — evil men and evil women who are fully aware of the damage they are doing to our economy, and to the warp and weft of our society, and who seem to be in a manic rush to do as much damage as possible in the time left to them.

      The evil goes back a bit further than Julia Gillard’s broken promise and Kevin Rudd’s inane pronouncements.

      The last dark deed of the Howard Government was the passage of the National Greenhouse and Energy Reporting Act in October 2007.
      That act is the auditing basis of the carbon tax.”

      This article is from a speech he (David Archibald) delivered at an anti-carbon tax rally in Sydney on July 1, 2012.
      http://newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=5257

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      • #
        Serp

        Thanks Travis T. Jones for posting the Archibald link which arraigned the climate troika (BOM, CSIRO, ABC) nearly eight long years ago (to no avail unfortunately).

        50

    • #
      el gordo

      ‘Why?’

      The masses have been deceived by a biased MSM and it’ll take a couple of years before the penny drops.

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  • #
    Kim

    If domestic solar power owners go off grid they can then manage their use of solar power. It would not be a too difficult exercise. But would cost a few thousand $s though.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Kim:
      between $25,000 and $45,000 depending on the household consumption.

      50

    • #
      yarpos

      Its less trivial than you suggest and more suited to people with a technical background who can do the operational stuff and deal with outages. Or perhaps those with deep pockets that can outsource all that.

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    • #
      Chad

      Kim
      May 22, 2020 at 9:49 am ·
      If domestic solar power owners go off grid they can then manage their use of solar power. It would not be a too difficult exercise. But would cost a few thousand $s though

      Apart from being expensive and difficult…..
      …you are completely missing the point.
      Everytime a household goes “off grid”. Or just installs RT Solar, it reduces the demand on the grid , which has to compensate in various ways. This makes a “grid supply” and Generation system less economic and ultimately unviable as the cost of the infrastructure is unable to be supported by the reduced number of consumers.
      This is also why power costs risse as more RE is intoduced.
      So yes, go 100% off grid….but your power will be much more expensive and unreliable,…and so will everybody else’s who stay on grid. ….!!

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      • #
        Bright Red

        Chad. Yep as more go off grid we loose the economy of scale and the remainers will pay more but not as much as those who leave (at least for now) . A business closing especially a big power consumer or moving overseas has the exact same effect leaving less users to pay. Our incompetent government seems to have found just about every way possible to stuff a grid and are busy implementing it.

        40

      • #
        yarpos

        I dont think they are missing to point, you are just introducing another point.

        Its all a bit melodramtic though , there is not going to be a mass off grid movement anytime soon. Loosing industries like car manufacturers, smelters and data centres will have a for more serious short term impact.

        10

        • #
          Chad

          Kim was missing the point of the AEMO /ABC article….which was about system control, and “Demand Management”
          The costs and pros/cons etc of going off grid is “another point “..introduced by Kim !
          Incase you missed it… over 20,000 households per year are installing solarwith battery back up . About 400MWh per year.. !
          Not technically “Off Grid”,.. but in terms of grid demand, its the same result.

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  • #
    wal1957

    Thanasis Avramis has been an advocate of solar panels since he had them installed in 2008. “In the last 12 years we’ve probably earned about $9,000 worth of feed-in tariff. That’s been a very substantial reduction in the cost of our electricity,” Mr Avramis told 7.30.

    Yep! And we subsidised the installation and the feed-in tariffs.
    This is utter madness. If it’s cost effective to install solar panels pay for the bloody things yourselves!

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    • #
      Mariner

      You are quite right Wal. However it is not going to happen. I knew it was not going to happen so I bought some panels to offset my high electricity bills. Those high bills are caused by panels (and wind).
      Go figure.

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  • #
    DaleC

    I have updated my detailed graphical analysis of the AEMO demand and price data to end of April, covering the initial lock-down phase.
    I’ll do another run when the May data is posted by AEMO.
    Prices are actually trending down since the Jan19 peak.

    http://www.redcentresoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/AEMO_Demand_and_Price_by_State.pdf
    http://www.redcentresoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/AEMO_Demand_and_Price_All_States.pdf

    For those who have previously remarked that the PDFs are information overload, I have been developing an interactive web site (still beta):

    http://rcsapps.azurewebsites.net/aemo/AEMO/Index/Day/

    It’s fun to play with the smoothing and the polynomial fits.

    (Any comments on usability would be appreciated.)

    For the similar impacts of wind on the UK supply mix, updated to 12April, see

    https://www.redcentresoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/GridwatchUK_Demand_and_Supply.pdf

    And for my discussion thereof, see

    https://www.redcentresoftware.com/2019/01/29/quantitative-jobs-2-uk-power-grid-demand-and-supply/

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  • #

    Look at the image at this link.

    This shows a typical Load Curve for overall power generation (which is also overall power consumption) for this time of year here in Australia.

    Rooftop solar power only generates and delivers power in that dark blue area, and in fact, only part of that blue area, between those two humps, the AM peak, and the (always) larger evening peak. However, it only delivers that power to the residential sector, mainly just the homes with the panels on their roofs, and those nearby homes.

    That blue coloured area is made up of some coal fired power, natural gas fired power and some hydro power, and the other small contributors.

    The pink coloured area is the Base Load, that is required 24 hours of every day. Rooftop solar power does not ever contribute to this at all, and it NEVER will. That pink colour is virtually ALL coal fired power.

    Until that becomes known, then people will mistakenly believe that rooftop solar power contributes, which it doesn’t do at all.

    Oh, and that lightish blue green colour rolling along the bottom of the graph, well that’s wind power’s contribution evened out.

    Tony.

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    • #
      Chad

      Tony,
      Do not those households with solar and battery storage….to “self power” overnight,… indirectly contribute to the “base load” ( by reducing o’night demand) …..in the same way daytime demand is suppressed by RT solar. ?

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      • #

        The actual amount of rooftop solar systems which are connected to batteries so they deliver their power across the whole day would be so minute as to be totally unnoticeable.

        What you need to realise here is the maths.

        The average rooftop system would be (close to now) 8KW.

        The Base Load is 18,000MW, and that’s average rooftop installation multiplied by 2,250,000.

        You’d need an awful lot of battery systems to make even the smallest impression.

        In all the time of this ramping up of rooftop solar power, the changes in the coal fired contribution to that Base Load have not really changed at all. Coal fired power still ramps up and down by what it has always ramped up and down. On the occasional weekend day, it is lower in the mid afternoon period.

        Tony.

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  • #
    Michael Hammer

    One reason (at least in my case) for considering solar panels is that one would continue to have power in the event of a grid failure (occurs often around us); but apparently the inverter automatically shuts down if the grid goes down. Why? supposedly for 2 reasons, firstly the inverter would not be able to maintain 50Hz without grid reference. What a strange notion, have they never heard of crystal oscillators such as are used in digital watches selling for $20. Then again petrol generators costing a few hundred dollars seem to be able to maintain 50Hz “pure sine wave” performance without grid reference, are they so much more capable than solar inverters? The second reason given is that if the solar panels continued to pump power into a disabled grid, the grid would remain live even when shut down for repair. Repairers would run the risk of electrocution.

    That’s a very real concern however it could be solved by not shutting down the inverter but by including an isolation contactor which opens if the grid is down or if the panels need to stop feeding the grid to maintain stability. That way the solar panel owner can continue to their use locally generated power including charging any battery storage they might have. What happens if the contactor fails? Exactly the same as what happens if the inverter fails to shut down, is one system any less reliable than another? Of course if home demand exceeds the panel supply the home owner could not then make up the difference from the grid. They would have to disable their inverter to use grid power but that would be their choice not an imposed action.

    Home owners could argue that having paid for the solar system they should be allowed to reap the benefits. They cannot however justifiably insist that others must purchase what they produce even if it is not wanted. The above change would fix that issue.

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    • #
      bobl

      You can buy islanding inverters that can continue to supply your house in a failure but for safety reasons you still must disconnect from the grid (with a contactor (relay)) so that segments de energised for maintenance are safe to work on. Your system will probably need a bit of storage though because the inverter has to be able to draw power on demand as your household consumption changes you can’t always do that with pure solar, any cloud could case your consumption to become greater than production then it’ll trip.

      I’d probably isolate the oven and stove and keep maybe 2kWh of storage on the DC bus of the inverter to prevent inverter trips. These are not difficult problems though. It’ll still only work properly during the day but it’s better than nothing.

      You can also provide an islanded regular solar array with a frequency reference from a generator, but if you have the generator what’s the point of the solar?

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    • #
      Chad

      Michael Hammer
      May 22, 2020 at 10:29 am ·

      Home owners could argue that having paid for the solar system they should be allowed to reap the benefits

      But… should they be allowed to adversly impact the reliability of the grid supply to other consumers ?
      …..which is what the AEMO are wanting to prevent by completely shutting off the domestic solar panels if/when necessary.
      This is like the landowner who dams the stream for his own use , but in so doing deprives all other downstreem users of their water supply……..it is Selfish !

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      • #
        yarpos

        He can continue to reap the benefits of offsetting his usage

        Sooking that he cant keep harvesting FITs wont win him much sympathy

        30

      • #
        Michael Hammer

        look at the next part of my comment; should they be allowed to damage grid stability – no. My point was they have the right to realise the benefit from their investment but to do so they would have to isolate from the grid so as not to harm it. The points made about offline inverters being available is an interesting one. Maybe if one could set up a system which operated like other solar systems normally but (by manual intervention – ie: operating an isolating switch) could run isolated when necessary it would be a more interesting proposition in heavily treed areas which experience frequent supply failures.

        00

        • #
          Chad

          I dont know of anyone who is “Off Grid”. ( no grid connection) ,..that does not have some form of emergency back up generator ( as do many of us still on the grid !)
          Thru greenies probably dont admit to it, but somewhere hidden away in a corner will be anything from just a small portable genny, or a fully installed auto start 20kva diesel genset !
          Wise realists know the limitations of off grid power supplies.
          But if AEMO get control of inverters you might consider a “Dual source“ system.
          A grid supply circuit for minimal use , say a couple of power points..
          And a separate solar+battery circuit for primary use completely independent from the grid circuit.
          Best of both worlds..except no option for FIT

          10

        • #
          Chad

          Michael Hammer
          May 23, 2020 at 12:01 pm
          look at the next part of my comment; should they be allowed to damage grid stability – no. My point was they have the right to realise the benefit from their investment but to do so they would have to isolate from the grid so as not to harm it.

          But Michael, simply by consuming their RT solar power instead of Grid power, the home owner is already harming the grid and its consumers by reducing the load and reducing the “economies of scale” that a National Grid provides.
          It drives up costs to the other Grid consumers.

          20

          • #
            yarpos

            Nobody is obliged to ensure anyone elses economies of scale

            01

            • #
              Chad

              Im not debating the ethics of the situation, ..
              …..but just pointing out that every roof top solar installation does have a detrimental effect on the grid….even if it is not connected to it.

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    • #
      Bright Red

      Michael. As others have stated you can get hybrid inverters that will operate off grid but they are as good as useless without a battery. Just your fridge motor starting draws a surge in power around 5 times its operating current. The movie Apollo 13 is a good indication of turning on loads with a power limited supply.
      The shutting down due to safety is an issue but probably more related to home owners and local electricians than professional linesman who always take precautions against a line unexpectedly becoming live.
      The reason all solar inverters must shut down or disconnect from the grid is that even if they could synchronise (AC requires them to do this) with a few other inverters and negotiate which one(s) is/are to provide frequency control there is no way they could supply the power for all consumers still connected to the isolated/blacked out grid section which could be a suburb or an entire town or South Australia.

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      • #
        yarpos

        My house is totally isolated from the grid during a black out via a changeover switch to gen supply. i really cant be bothered with solar, batteries, cost and complexity vs connecting and starting a gen that costs a few thousand dollars.

        20

        • #
          Bright Red

          I am setting up right now with an Automatic Transfer Switch and an auto start genset. All at a fraction of the cost of a battery system and it will last weeks of power outage and even longer if I go get more fuel for it. Also if in the end I do get a battery system after the grid is totally stuffed I can still use the genset on the odd occasion the sun doesn’t shine for a few days saving heaps on the size of the battery required.

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        • #
          Analitik

          My house is totally isolated from the grid during a black out via a changeover switch to gen supply

          Why don’t you just throw the mains switch before connecting and starting the generator? It requires a small amount of operator discipline but not much.

          00

  • #
    Robber

    SA has always been the poster child for all things ‘ruinable’.
    Per OpenNEM, on Sat May 16 at 1pm, generation in SA consisted of:
    Solar 863 MW, wind 70 MW, gas 656 MW with exports of 160 MW.
    But at 7pm, solar zero, wind 50 MW, gas 1751 MW, imports 76 MW.
    Thurs May 21 at 1pm, solar 450, wind 613, gas 855, exports 139 MW.
    And at 7pm, solar zero, wind 447, gas 1696, imports 42 MW.
    So to meet that evening peak demand, SA must have available 2,000 MW of reliable gas.
    In fact, SA has 3,462 MW nameplate capacity of fossil generators, including 542 MW of diesel generators on standby to meet those peak summer demands. Plus it has 2,142 MW nameplate capacity of wind generators.
    Add it all up.
    To meet a market demand that perhaps occasionally peaks at 2,500 MW, SA has about 1,200 MW of solar, 2,100 MW of wind, and 3,400 MW of fossil generators. What wasted investments in intermittent generators, sponsored by your government, paid for by ill-informed consumers.

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    • #
      Chad

      Robber.
      At times in summer heat etc, the peak load in SA exceeds 3.0 GW.
      So they need all that FF capacity…just in case !

      30

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Last year I watched as 30% of the SA power demand was supplied by Vic & NSW…..

        “Self sufficient SA”….yeah like fun it is….

        SA is truly a MacBeth-ian cautionary tale of how not to do things. Add to that they dynamited a reliable coal power station to show the world how dumb they could be.

        We have a Darwin awards, what do you call an award for monumental stupidity? An eco-Nobel?

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        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Steve, In case you don’t know, Victoria now has more wind power plants than SA and more house hold solar power rooftops.
          SA was the dopey pioneer but we are no longer the ‘leader’.
          The competition to be the most dopey in power provision, is very intense.
          Sarc !

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          • #
            Bright Red

            Bill you may want to relook at that as a % of total grid size and not absolute numbers of wind capacity.
            SA still leads in the stupid department but there is no doubt VIC is trying to overtake.

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            • #
              OriginalSteve

              SA will get a lasting pioneering monument to eco stupidity (aka an “eco-Bobble head” award )

              But Victoriastan which apparently soon may be flush with CCP money ( well it appears they got the virus for free) , but the whole thing reeks of a seedy deal in some 3rd world backwater, for a small “score”….

              Dangerous Dan appears to be allowing a CCP beach head to be established inside Australia …

              I wonder what a soul goes for on the open market these days?

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              • #
                Bill In Oz

                Dan thinks it’s a ‘dalliance’.
                But even he will soon wake up that he has been kidnapped.

                11

              • #
                Serp

                I’m expecting a sudden resignation of Andrews and Pallas in the style of their forerunners Bracks and Thwaites once the Cedar Meats and Belt and Road Initiative have run far enough to disgust the electorate sufficiently.

                30

              • #
                Analitik

                have run far enough to disgust the electorate sufficiently

                One can only hope. But our state, especially in Melbourne’s inner suburbs, seems infested with greentards unwilling to look beyond the climate scare. Adam Band(i)t’s continued representation of the seat of Melbourne is indicative of this.

                20

          • #
            yarpos

            Nobody is going to out dopey Andrews and D’Ambrosio, the dynamic duo of rainbows and unicorns energy provision.

            30

  • #
    Wayne Job

    I have trouble calling the unreliables renewable power, as an engineer I am aware that in their life time of usefulness they do not make enough power to manufacture a replacement for themselves.

    Thus they are not renewable they are parasitic.

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    • #
      Bright Red

      Agree. Also all energy including coal is free but the cost of harvesting that energy and converting it to electricity is not free and requires machines that have a limited life. The so-called renewables are no different and the more diffuse and intermittent the energy source the more machines required. Ruinable’s is a far more accurate term than Renewables.

      40

    • #
      JanEarth

      Yes yes YES…
      You win the internet today.
      Someone here called it intermittent energy the other day and I am sticking with this accurate description in future.

      30

  • #
    truth

    The claim of AEMO and the rest of the RE zealots and carpetbaggers has always been that the proliferation of solarPV has been ‘consumer-led’…Australians choosing to spend thousands in 15 year cycles…to become ‘prosumers’ because of their ‘excitement’ about the technology…because they ‘believe’ in renewable energy…that it’s nothing to do with the people seeking autonomy and control over their finances in the face of stratospheric unaffordable electricity bills…nothing to do …..they want us to believe….. with a desperate defence response to the rapacious opportunistic gentailers spawned by the government siphon of Australian taxpayers’ money from the poor and middle income earners into the bulging coffers of foreign companies and governments.

    The truth was clear to many Australians from the start.

    Now with solar electricity often uncontrollable within the home power plant……many having to contend with over-voltage…and from without as well…..with AEMO expressing exponentially-increasing difficulty with keeping the system stable …now those seeking autonomy will have anything but…only allowed to proceed and connect to the grid if they spend ever more money on the required battery banks and inverters….only if they submit to being herded and corralled into virtual power plants controlled more than ever by the authorities…because of the absolute necessity AEMO has for control via ‘demand response’—ie switching off appliances …homes and/or industries when wind and solar inevitably fail.

    All of the Australian renewables-puffing pundits totally ignore the successive AEMO reports wherein the truth is reluctantly and tentatively told…to cover their butts for when the collapse of the NEM finally occurs.

    Now…once more this PM and his leering lackey Taylor…..have conned LNP voters…thumbing their noses at Liberal voters to slyly…under cover of the Covid crisis….just as Communist China is proceeding with their misappropriation of the South china Sea under the same cover….conning LNP to implement Labor policy……this time energy policy…that drives absolutely everything….to slyly implement their Roadmap that Labor’s Marles would have been proud to deploy …and with that ultimate betrayal ….Australia now has no democracy at all.

    This deceit is why Morrison said almost zilch about energy policy during the 2019 election…because he didn’t want to blow the coverup of his Photios plan to sell Australia out and kow tow to Communist China and Paris…..and he had to get rid of Tony Abbott who would not have stayed silent.

    Taylor invites us all to make submissions before his roadmap is set in concrete….an insult designed only to make him and Morrison appear to be democratic….considering every single thing about his roadmap …from my quick read of it…is premised on the fundamental…seminal lie.

    This ‘roadmap’ of Morrison’s/Taylor’s/Photios/Labor’s/UNIPCC’s is the ultimate ‘we’re all Socialists now’ policy….and it ensures there’ll be nothing but Socialist government from now on in Australia….for the foreseeable future….under the jackboot of the Global Socialist despots of the UNIPCC ….effectively forever……ruled by the same Chinese Communist-controlled cohort that ensured the premature deaths of hundreds of thousands of the world’s grandparents in order …with malice and aforethought…..to bring those countries still desperately clinging to democracy…to their knees…. into the economic and health quicksand ….for no reason other than to maintain Communist China’s control and its death grip on the world.

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      There is only one solution to Australia’s failed political system and it’s sad.

      Since the system is now corrupted it will not function to enable taxpayers to access their rightful entitlement to honest governance. i.e. there is no functional legal system.

      The only way of obtaining any correction of the decline is through processes demonstrated in the mass uprisings in France and the tractor protests in Holland.
      Trouble is they didn’t change anything much.

      The solutions are obvious but nobody can get the politicians away from the Troughs that have their complete and undivided attention.

      KK

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      • #
        el gordo

        Excuse my ignorance, the solution is not clear to me. Could you elaborate?

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        • #
          Serp

          I think he’s saying wait for some foreign power or other to shut it down and impose martial law.

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          • #
            Kalm Keith

            :-) are you teasing?

            Revolt.

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          • #
            Kalm Keith

            He pretended not to see this;

            “The only way of obtaining any correction of the decline is through processes demonstrated in the mass uprisings in France and the tractor protests in Holland.”

            Unfortunately, confrontation and CD.

            In the USA that’s why they insist on having guns.

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        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Were you aware of the circumstances of the “demutualisation” of NSWs road service that was owned by the subscribers?

          There’s also the large BHP Related Health fund that was treated similarly.

          Who profited from these unnecessary “improvements” and who subsequently found themselves on the boards of these newly privatised entities.

          And yes, if you don’t know that background, and the many similar instances of political misdirection of effort, then yes, you are Ignorant, as stated.

          KK

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          • #
            el gordo

            There won’t be a general uprising, we are primarily of English stock and prefer to illustrate our preference at election time.

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            • #
              Serp

              The truculence of the Australian population towards government interference fifty years ago has been so attenuated by twenty years of the world’s highest per capita immigration and the social fragmentation induced by identity politics that it is hard to see it rising up against even the most oppressive totalitarianism for which we are now witnessing worldwide rehearsals.

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              • #
                el gordo

                We still have the Westminster system and it works pretty well, the new immigrants have the opportunity to express their political opinion through the ballot box.

                Totalitarianism might be alive and well in China, but we are an independent democratic state and the people have no wish to march in the street over the price of energy.

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    • #
      el gordo

      ‘ … it ensures there’ll be nothing but Socialist government from now on in Australia….for the foreseeable future….under the jackboot of the Global Socialist despots …’

      Rubbish, socialism with Australian characteristics won’t be so bad, the Chinese model actually reduces energy costs.

      ‘The Ministry of Finance said in its 2020 annual budget report that it will continue to support exploration and utilisation of unconventional natural gas, including shale gas and coalbed methane, as China looks to lower its reliance on imports.

      ‘The ministry will also lower gas charges to agriculture-related sectors seriously affected by coronavirus, such as chemical fertiliser businesses that use natural gas as feedstock.

      ‘It also plans to extend a 5% reduction in electricity prices for industrial and commercial businesses till the end of the year. It previously reduced electricity prices from Feb. 1 to June 30.’

      Reuters

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      • #
        truth

        You seem quite happy with the status quo El Gordo…where those Australians who can’t or don’t watch SKY after dark or read The Australian and other non-Left newspapers online get only censored news which is therefore propaganda designed to propagate only the Socialist view held by most Australian journalists….so that those people won’t wake up until PBS is gone and Australia is too poor for any sort of safety nets…security or independence.

        How independent is a country whose leaders…facilitated by that LW MSM…obey the aggressive diktat of foreign Socialists…activists and UN Socialist kleptocrats…to the extent even of dispatching for their purposes a new great PM democratically elected by the Australian people in a landslide… in order to force the ‘transition’ of Australia to the crippled status of being the world’s only totally weather-dependent 100% intermittent electricity system?

        How is it ‘independent’ that this government’s ‘road map’ is all about fulfilling the foreign diktat while never discussing the premise of the whole thing…never discussing with Australians the fact that the outcome of all this grovelling compliance is that Australian sovereignty will be weakened…Australian TPM will be redistributed to Communist China and other Socialist states along with technology transfer as per the Framework for the Copenhagen Convention which still applies…and the UN will oversee and orchestrate our compliance….despite the insipid nod to nuclear you cite on p26…and the almost imperceptible sop to coal..a sop which has zero credibility in the scheme of things …and the puffing of gas which the government knows has been telegraphed as next in their line of sights for the local and overseas activists on their agenda to clear the way of all baseload …to make way for all TPM to be spent on 100% intermittents plus batteries.

        10

  • #
    UK-Weather Lass

    Only very limited minds could believe that wind and solar were ever going to be anything more than a short term seemingly virtuous plan. Had it been carefully thought through alongside scientific analysis of the very unpleasant and un-green processes involved in both manufacture and end-of-life clean up, then it should never have got started let alone expanded.

    In my opinion we should be looking at large and small scale nuclear options alongside hydroelectric and the cleaner generators which are very much less likely to harm our futures than this short sighted and entirely fantasy based ‘green age’. Until we develop relatively cheap electrical storage capacity at base demand level (which hydroelectric can already provide) a green future is as big a lie as the CO2 alarm bell that preceded it.

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    • #
      Chad

      There are few “developed” countries that can significantly up-scale Hydro—electric capacity economically or even physically. All the big/easy suitable locations have been developed already..
      And any significant developments will always be hindered by the green lobby !

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    • #
      Bright Red

      Agree but hydro capability is a geographically limited resource that is not going to solve the bigger problem posed by the ruinables

      30

    • #
      UK-Weather Lass

      Agree with the comments about shortage of potential new sites for hydro, although some pumped sites (in Scotland and elsewhere) do a good job of using electricity that may otherwise be wasted. We also seem to have forgotten tidal power or discounted it due to cost … but here is some good UK news which may suggest a sea change …

      https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/22/uk-approval-for-biggest-gas-power-station-europe-ruled-legal-high-court-climate-planning

      At least the legitimacy of the Drax power station project is based on high efficiency and not upon ‘green dreams’ which haven’t a hope of success without some major scientific breakthroughs. It is a victory for common sense if nothing else and those protesting via Greenpeace and elsewhere need to explain how they will cover the problem of basic demand supply issues with their green suppliers. So far they have not done so, and simply choose to deny that the problem exists. Unfortunately the Guardian is one of those media outlets that never thinks that it may be wrong about fossil fuel and CO2 and never asks questions about the serious shortcomings of all the most recent green projects.

      Although this legal judgement is much at odds with those who tell us they believe only in green agendas and not evidence based needs (which have not changed since electricity generation became essential to almost everything we do) it is the only ‘green’ option on the table as long as nuclear is side-lined and hydro unable to scale up to the need required without alternative fuel backup when water levels fall too low.

      Evidence based needs simply state that you must be able to generate base load on demand or everything will simply collapse into the chaos ‘caused’ by load failures, which was seen in the UK on at least four separate occasions in 2019. Only one of those collapses made it to general media attention because of the level of inconvenience caused and the length of time recovery took. It occurred in August and the effects were felt by large numbers of travellers because rail services were severely disrupted. The three other failures did not inconvenience quite so many because the cuts were to less populated areas, of shorter duration, and not bad enough for front page news. It is what happens when base load falls beneath the minimum level required and is a problem that those with green agendas have serially denied to be a problem.

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  • #
    Environment Skeptic

    Solar owners…:)
    From:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wqfcwgT0Ds

    Flight of the Conchords Ep2 Inner City Pressure
    4,252,234 views
    •Jun 25, 2007

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  • #
    george1st:)

    It is the main problem with renewables
    Too much power when its not needed
    And zero when its required .
    CO2 is not the problem
    Its the governing officials .

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    • #
      Serp

      As always the problem is secret commissions; maybe such a prime exponent as Eddie Obeid would consent to run some information sessions while he’s on parole.

      60

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