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Israel, Costa Rica, aim to be new quarantine-free travel bubble hubs from Aust-NZ to Europe

Global flight routes are getting remapped as countries close-to-zero start talking about connecting up without that pesky two-week quarantine.

An advantage of doing lockdown properly is getting free of it faster.

European gateway Israel and Costa Rica rush to join plans for Australia-New Zealand tourism bubble

Clare Armstrong, David Aidone, James MacSmith, News Corp Australia Network

Plans have been launched for a quarantine-free gateway to Europe through Israel by December, and a long-haul flight to Costa Rica, as countries that have managed COVID-19 effectively race to join Australia and New Zealand’s tourism bubble proposal.

Israel wants to schedule a permanent flight to its economic hub of Tel Aviv from either Sydney or Melbourne to open itself up as a stepping stone to ‘safe’ European countries including Norway, Denmark, Greece and the Czech Republic.

There are also reports some Pacific Islands, such as Fiji, could be included in a trans-Tasman bubble.

While the timeline includes the Pacific Islands, it has been labelled “aspirational” and the NZ and Australian government will make the final call.

Meanwhile, discounted plane tickets and free accommodation are among perks that will be offered to travellers as countries ease border restrictions.

Countries with plenty of virus could always travel freely to other countries with plenty of virus. But the country with the most infections, or the worst hospitals, gets the better deal.

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Rating: 7.3/10 (40 votes cast)
Israel, Costa Rica, aim to be new quarantine-free travel bubble hubs from Aust-NZ to Europe, 7.3 out of 10 based on 40 ratings

113 comments to Israel, Costa Rica, aim to be new quarantine-free travel bubble hubs from Aust-NZ to Europe

  • #

    Countries with plenty of virus could always travel freely to other countries with plenty of virus.

    Would airlines, railways or shipping etc be happy with that? I can’t see Swedes etc traveling much anyplace.

    60

    • #
      Greg in NZ

      Him fella big virus seek other/she plenty big virus. Make UN-happy-happy. Will trade bat for pig. OK Tedi?

      142

    • #
      Ross

      NZs latest trade figures are out. Most primary produce is going fine ( dairy, meat, kiwifruit etc.) They have not changed their markets compared to last years. That is, ships, freight planes etc. are getting on with business the best way they can.

      I would expect the same to be happening with Australian products.

      Of course international tourism has been pummelled in both countries.

      62

  • #

    If other countries wait for herd immunity before finding travel buddy countries will that work out well if the immunity wears off faster than it can be attained?

    110

  • #
    MrGrimNasty

    There is no correlation to doing lockdowns properly with any of the destinations you mention.

    The only similarity is that they all benefited from a late date of first infection – mostly around the very end of Feb/start of March, and very low ‘seeding’ of infected cases among the population. The other thing they have in common is that they are still getting significant numbers of new cases, and in the case of Israel it looks like an upward trend.

    There are dozens and dozens of other countries/places with similar late/low infection rates, now clear or almost clear of new cases, that you could add to your tourism bubble, but it is a myriad of other confounding factors and sometimes just luck, not lockdowns, that explains it.

    155

    • #

      How exactly did being late help?

      73

    • #
      WXcycles

      The virus got to those countries later due to a lower level of direct travel linkage to Hubei and Wuhan. The virus came to places like PNG and Timor indirectly, and much later, from second countries that China had already infected, via a direct travel linkage.

      But even then as soon as quarantine is put in place the daily new cases of virus crashes, usually within 7 to 10 days. Which very quickly proved that strict quarantine and a firm cooperative policy of home isolation worked beautifully within Australia and New Zealand.

      We thus proved (as Jo predicted many weeks earlier) that in a short period of doing that (about 5 weeks in our case) you could almost completely remove the virus from any country.

      In fact a small Italian village had already eliminated the virus before that, so we knew for sure that home isolation works and the banning of all visitors could end the entire infection within weeks, not months.

      But it sure is interesting how some people wish to do all they can to denigrate this lived and experienced truth of the situation.

      Why is that?

      Conversely, wherever strict quarantine and a firm cooperative policy of home isolation is not followed, the virus spreads exponentially — up to 40% increase in cases per day have been observed where no home isolation, social distancing when you do have to interact, nor quarantine is in place.

      This virus is gone from a continent in just 5 weeks if you do this:

      (1) Strict 14 day quarantine (and ours leaked … Ruby Princess)

      (2) Voluntary Home-isolation for the duration (with full social and financial support).

      (3) Mandatory Home-isolation for known non hospital cases (with full social and financial support).

      (4) A period of monitored and enforced social-distancing.

      Do that and you end up with a country with almost no new cases at all within 4 to 5 weeks. The USA or any other country could do that, right now, and would have almost no new cases 5 weeks from now, and be able to travel here and trade with us inside of about 8 weeks.

      So when the last week of July arrives, when Australia and NZ have almost fully functioning economies, and open international travel to similarly recovered countries, and the USA has a still growing infection of 5 to 8 million cases, think about that a little and maybe you might realize that (1), (2), (3) and (4) were the way to go, after all.

      And you’re next predictable excuse and warped logic, and its associated perverse narratives will be that not every country can do this. And you’ll foist that utter rubbish like you actually believe it, despite all the contrary evidence, which shows that any country can successfully do it, inside of 5 weeks.

      168

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        The Corona virus has, via Fcebook Twitter & Quadrant, successfully recruited thousands of Corona 19 ‘Friends’.
        Thye are now trying the best all the time to ensure the Corona 19 virus’ survival.
        After all It is an ‘endangered species’
        And will shortly be nominated for listing as such with the UN Environment program.
        ( Tongue firmly in Cheek ! )
        :-)

        1310

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          Ohhhh deary, deary me !
          I’ve annoyed some friends of the virus.
          It’s so hard for them.
          Ordinary folks just refuse to pay attention to their cause.
          And they definitely have no sense of humour about it.
          :-)

          126

      • #
        Lucky

        Another explanation is from the evidence that mutations are happening,for example the strain that hit New York was not from Wuhan directly, but via Europe.
        So, while I think the explanation given by WXcycles is probably right, it could be that by the later date the virus had mutated to be less (or more) virulent and more (or less) spreadable.
        Also worth noting is that fast mutation makes finding a vaccine much harder.

        70

  • #
    Zigmaster

    That sounds pretty useful. It sounds like I might be able to go to Israel before I can go to Queensland or Western Australia.

    101

  • #
    PeterW

    The question that I see still unanswered, is how we deal with the prospect of reinfection, assuming that we can achieve clean status in the first place.

    Do we engage in s perennial series of lockdowns – each with its own 100 billion dollar increase in government debt?

    222

    • #
      John Michelmore

      Well said Peter, This virus is here to stay unless a reliable vaccine is found. Eventually it will return to Australia, its just a matter of time unless we adopt what happens to animals coming into this country. Lockdowns are not going to maintain a Covid free Australia, because they are not quarantine. There will always be exceptions and a relaxation of control. Economics will force this because Australia is not a self sufficient independent soverign nation.

      106

      • #
        bobl

        You just do it with test and trace, test on arrival, and all visitors have to report 3 days later for retesting, they must carry a tracking app, if the app loses server contact for a significant time they are deported. While I’m not in favour of government tracking of Australians, I don’t have the same problems with our government keeping tabs or data on Aliens. This way we keep on top of any spread. If we can intervene quickly enough the risks are very low.

        147

        • #
          bobl

          By the way, states can do a similar thing. Open borders, collect samples at each entry point, all visitors must do a second test 3 days later and are given a contact diary (or Carry the covidsafe app if you are happy with its intrusion in your privacy), you can’t deport or require tracking because citizens have rights visitors don’t have, but you can levy fines for not presenting for the second test.

          105

          • #
            Bill In Oz

            This does not work Bob.
            As illustrated by the recent arrival in SA of a woman from the UK who stayed in quarantine for a week in Melbourne. She tested negative after 3 days in Melbourne but positive after arrival in Adelaide last Sunday morning. with the test results hitting the fan on Tuesday
            There are now 19 people who were seated near her on the flight or who hd contact with her in Adelaide after her arrival, who are in isolation for 14 days. None of them volunteered for that. They thought they were on a safe virus free flight.

            Now that’s not a ‘political’ view. It’s simply a view of the data.
            A week is not long enough.
            So three days ?

            913

            • #

              Two week mandatory quarantine is the only way to keep the virus out.

              There is no screening on entry that can reliably detect the virus during most of the two week incubation period. If someone got infected in the airport as they boarded the plane it is not possible to detect the tiny number of viral particles within them even with the PCR RNA test, though at some point before they become symptomatic (if they do) the tests will work. It may be possible to do a ten day quarantine and then test and so shorten the mandatory quarantine. I don’t know how far it can be shortened.

              See https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2765837

              Obviously we don’t need a two week quarantine with countries that “track to zero” on the virus count. Hence the zone surrounded by a two-week-border will expand to include many countries.

              1013

              • #
                bobl

                Not true Jo (sigh)

                The average incubation time is just five days, the Adelaide case represents an outlier and I would point out it was still detected and didn’t result in any significant cluster proving my point. I’d also point out that if the test shows negative then that person isn’t currently infectious. But you could require retesting at 3 and then weekly (7,14,21 days). You would detect most cases early enough to prevent significant outbreaks and the diaries give you easy tracing.

                This can and does work and is the basis of many countries strategies.

                74

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                I assume that ypu are not South Australian Bob
                But even if you were South Australian,
                Or Australian
                We would ignore your false & misleading advice.

                210

          • #
            WXcycles

            If we can intervene quickly enough the risks are very low. … By the way, states can do a similar thing. Open borders, collect samples at each entry point …

            Agree, the risk is greatly minimized and traceability is greatly increased by taking note of all vehicles and occupants and enforcing restrictions. Our awareness is now high and the response time will be fast — it was none of those things in January.

            When a boy we traveled to all mainland states in Australia via car during the late 1960s and early 1970s and at every Australia State border crossing point there were restrictions and checks, plus removal and disposal of all fruit and vegetables for all incoming vehicles. Insect, pest and disease control was the core of that effort. We invested money in making sure diseases did not spread and the borders were constantly manned at that time. We used to pull up just before a border crossing and eat all we could before the remainder was disposed of. The border officers had the ability to search cars, caravans and boats, and there were state permits needed to travel, and such permits (and the ‘stamp duty’ tax) stipulated specific requirements and responsibilities under the various state legislative Acts, which provided the powers of search and seizure for non-conforming goods and vehicles. Yes, we had to show our papers at every border crossing. It was not a big deal. That was normal 50 years ago.

            It did not impede or prevent our travel, it did slightly increase the cost of travel, but it ensured that potential damage was low and more manageable than it otherwise would have been, without border checks. We had to stop to obtain permits and this was the main PITA. But that to can also be vastly sped up and mediated cheaply online before a physical border-crossing inspection takes place.

            86

            • #
              RickWill

              I had the embarrassing situation of not knowing how to open the bonnet of my car when asked to open it for inspection prior to boarding the Spirit of Tasmania. That was 2 years ago. The biosecurity measures for Tasmania remain quite tight.

              The bin at the Victorian SA border is an honour system – no patrol.

              60

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                True Rick, But there are spot checks at the SA/Vic, SA/WA & SA/NSW border points quite regularly.
                The emphasis is on keeping plant pests out of the Riverland.

                24

      • #
        WXcycles

        This virus is here to stay unless a reliable vaccine is found.

        Absolute rubbish, we already eliminated it in almost all of the human population of a continent, minus a vaccine.

        There is absolutely no reason that can’t be expanded to the entire planet, in under 6 weeks.

        Eventually it will return to Australia, its just a matter of time unless we adopt what happens to animals coming into this country.

        We are doing that now – and it works brilliantly.

        Lockdowns are not going to maintain a Covid free Australia, because they are not quarantine.

        We never had a “lockdown” within Australia at any point.

        Lockdown is just an emotive and hysterical term being used dishonestly by people to fan a ‘victim’ mentality and pad out their nonsense arguments, which have not real basis in fact.

        We had home isolation and the ability to go out for essential and describes reasons, going to a supermarket, daily exercise, short local essential trips. All perfectly reasonable in the situation.

        There will always be exceptions and a relaxation of control.

        We have a national quarantine process right now, it’s working. We had a Federal quarantine service for 103 years prior to 2008, so this is not new, we do it because it does works, it does keep virus out, and it greatly limits and slows them if they do slip in.

        You’d abandon that then? Why is a working quarantine service that protects out economy bad in your mind?

        If we had one working properly in 2019 we would never have had to close down our economy in 2020 — same goes for every country on Earth in fact.

        Economics will force this because Australia is not a self sufficient independent soverign nation.

        Garbage.

        Humans need food, shelter, clothing and possibly also electricity. We are more than self-sufficient in all of these things.

        Haven’t seen the Brit Queen around trying to tell us what to do since about 1973. We are an Independent and Sovereign country, and anyone who thinks not is just one referendum from us begging to differ (let me guess, you are from the UK, right?).

        We do not need tourists at all.

        Everything else comes by ship, or by jet, not one bit of it is essential, and it also can be quarantined on arrival. Metal containers full of trade goods will bake a virus into non existence inside 1/2 an hour. UV light can do the same. Materiel can be irradiated to kill virus as well.

        There are numerous adaptive and effective ways to allow trade, while preventing viral importation in cargo.

        2114

      • #
        el gordo

        ‘Eventually it will return to Australia …’

        If we keep out tourists, students and new immigrants, the virus won’t return.

        146

      • #
        el gordo

        ‘Economics will force this because Australia is not a self sufficient independent sovereign nation.’

        Yes we are and let me assure you that Australia doesn’t need the rest of the world.

        127

        • #
          John Michelmore

          “Yes we are and let me assure you that Australia doesn’t need the rest of the world.”
          So just explain to me how we feed our population after 3 weeks when the hydrocarbon fuels we import run out.
          We use diesel for transport and agriculture, and we have two about two weeks stock. Of course this is just one crucial item needed to just grow and distribute food. I don’t see any new oil fields or biodiesel plants to replace this “un necessary” requirement to grow and distribute food in the short term. Like I said at this point Australia can’t stand on its own!! Oh that’s right the government are organising strategic hydrocarbon reserves with the USA, but they need to be shipped from the USA; and we don’t need the US either I suppose, because Australia can stand on our own two feet!! What a laugh!!

          42

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Easy…we have a lot of the Timor sea and bass strait will capped oil and gas wells we can open up easily.

            If we got our act together, we could build 20 nuclear plants for power and use coil to oil conversion for road vehicles.

            81

          • #
            el gordo

            All of our supply chains are still operating and fuels will continue to come into Australia. Paid for with our quarry and food bowl.

            ‘Australia can stand on our own two feet!! What a laugh!!’

            We are a sovereign nation and in the new world order we should be able to keep foreigners out. What is your country

            53

            • #
              John Michelmore

              Gooodness, what you said is we don’t need the rest of the world, only their oil and fuel. Make your mind up!,

              02

              • #
                WXcycles

                Imported hydrocarbon fuel within a pipe or tank will infect Australia with COVID-19?

                I did not know that!

                54

              • #
                el gordo

                If biological warfare breaks out the US Alliance will be dead in the water.

                12

              • #
                WXcycles

                If biological warfare breaks out the US Alliance will be dead in the water.

                In military speak the term used is “degraded” capabilities, but all the elements of warfare still exist in that case, all the infrastructure is still there, the communications and military trade and air and sea lift is still present. Fighting and operating with degrading capabilities is exactly what Western Allied training and exercises are all about, that is expected to occur and evolve 100% of the time during battle, and the standard operating practices and concepts of operation and force development evolve to develop a force that can not only cope with the expected degradation process, but will have multiple redundant paths to do so and still fight very effectively as an Allied force. It’s a profession, dealing with degradation from all possible weapons and their effects is what they think about and plan to negate every day.

                63

              • #
                el gordo

                We went into WW1 with horses and found it had become tank warfare with trenches and mustard gas. In WW2 the enemy introduced massive aerial bombing, which almost brought the curtain down on western democracy in Europe. The Americans wouldn’t have joined the fray except for Pearl Harbour.

                Covid-19 is a weapon of mass destruction which a lone actor purposely or accidentally released into the Wuhan market. It is a wakeup call to the West, do we keep the heathens at arms length?

                52

          • #
            Slithers

            There are oil refineries in mothballs in several places that could be brought back on line. Good jobs for Aussies and benefits in trade deficits to boot.

            70

      • #
        TedM

        The virus may not be here to stay, it may not have a host apart from humans. While this may not be likely, only time will tell.

        54

    • #
      PeterS

      Can’t afford any more lockdowns, unless we want to be like China and turn to communism. Our economy is already on a knife edge. The only solution is to continue doing what we all should have been doing for decades; wash hands, stay clean, etc., and also detect and isolate as early as possible new cases of infections, including those in aged care facilities. All common sense stuff but as we know common sense is no longer common.

      164

      • #
        el gordo

        If I’ve told you once I’ve told you a thousand times, China is communist in name only, Beijing is a fascist dictatorship.

        106

        • #
          PeterS

          In case you haven’t noticed everyone else is calling their government the Communist Party of China, or the Chinese Communist Party. Besides, no matter how you prefer to interpret “communism” wrt China my comment still applies. Stop being pedantic.

          121

        • #

          Is common sense where we “know” stuff without any data?

          How do we compare the economic costs of the two scenarios?

          1/ No lockdown, handwashing and mask option
          – where long term rolling infection causes economic damage as 20% of the population stays home, changes spending, and some other part of the population 5%? gets a serious illness, that may lose 1 – 2 months of productivity and a smaller percent may suffer long term damage, like Chronic Fatigue, loss of lung capacity, kidney function, liver function or minor cerebral stroke type damage. Gransparents unavailable for childcare, mass events or travel. Does 90% of the economy recover? (Is it that good?) Travel without quarantine is only available to third world nations with current virus running. All other travel to most first world nations requires a two week quarantine. This will damage tourism and business opportunities. Hospitals operate at reduced efficiency, periodically overrun, and some part of the population remain reluctant to seek treatment. This nation needs to build more hospitals. Since most deaths are in older age groups the voting profile of the nation shifts left. What price “wisdom of elders”?

          2/ 6-8 weeks of proper lockdown (not sabotaged by open borders as in US/UK) then track and trace to zero, thereafter 98% of economy restored in full. Large spectator events, like football games, mass weddings, choirs, concerts, internal travel all restored. Grandparents free to do childcare, travel, restaurants. If started early enough it may only take 4 -6 weeks. If internal borders are used some regions may track to zero faster and likewize do a shorter lockdown. Hospitals and medical services return to normal operation. This nation may need to build more hotels for quarantine purposes.

          Gimme some numbers.

          1013

          • #
            PeterS

            We can’t because there are too many unknowns and insufficient data, with much of what is available dubious at best. All we can do is use common sense approaches. Lock-downs do work but we can’t keep relying on them forever. Quarantines do work but we can’t always apply it to everyone who enters the country. Do we apply the same draconian measures for other diseases? Of course not. Early detection, isolation and cleanliness in the various ways we already know are our best options, even if and when we find a vaccine.

            103

            • #

              Exactly. It’s common sense that we can’t afford to do a sabotaged lockdown, burning through money and community trust while preventing the lockdown succeeding. Why aren’t the UK and US people up in arms? (Especially the ones who wanted secure borders for the last 20 years?).

              Open borders guarantees that a nation will end up with a slow bleed hobbled economy and endemic continuous disruption

              If you like the economy, the fastest, shortest lockdowns are the one you want.

              Other diseases are irrelevant. This is not the flu. And absolutely, quarantines can be maintained if billions of dollars depends on maintaining it.

              What Minister would let the virus back in that would wipe out the football / concert / event / church / wedding / elective surgery and tourism industry, as well as kill citizens?

              118

              • #
                PeterS

                All fair points except you ignore the elephant in the room. We are not an isolated economy in spite of the desire to be one by some. When America sneezes, the world catches cold. So, no matter how well we go on the virus front, if the US enters another great depression then we are stuffed economically. So, we better hope the US can overcome their crises ASAP. The recent murder of George Floyd by a police officer will only compound the situation as more and more people have had enough of police racial brutality that has been ignored for so long. It couldn’t have come at a worse time with massive unemployment. It’s the stuff of mass civil violence on a scale we haven’t seen for a long time.

                94

              • #
                el gordo

                ‘When America sneezes, the world catches cold.’

                As you know that is because at the time of the Great Depression or GFC the US economic fundamentals were unsound, on this occasion its an external force. So the US economy should rebound fairly quickly.

                23

              • #
                OriginalSteve

                Peter, I suspect there has been simmering racial issues in the USA for some time. I am not an expert on the US so can only guess.

                However – when you look at footage of what’s going on with riots etc, it’s clear there is an anarchist/ antifa element hard at work. When people get cranky and kick off, its hard to naturally maintain the rage beyond a few days…normal people don’t behave like that. Those who do incite riots on a regular basis are the “goats” ( biblical term ) who are just full of hate and can’t be placated. In places like Minnesota, it appears the Democrat mayor’s appear to have stepped back and let thier idelogically-similar pals riot without restriction , which is how you get police stations burnt down.Dont forget you also have evil mongrels like Soros et Al who appear to provide logistical and financial support.

                The USA is actually inside an attempted Communist revolution *right now*. If the raised clenched fist mob rioters aren’t put down soon with sufficient force to re-establish rule of law, the USA will rot from within and Soros will win and the USA will fall.

                90

              • #
                PeterS

                Good points OriginalSteve. To me it’s fairly obvious much of the rioting is due to Trump haters who will take any opportunity to bring him down, taking the nation down with it if necessary. It’s playing right into the hands of the CCP who must be glad it’s all happening to divert attention from them.

                70

            • #
              WXcycles

              Quarantines do work but we can’t always apply it to everyone who enters the country.

              Why?

              A quarantine means everyone does it, there’s no reason at all to make exceptions.

              If countries don’t wan’t us to have a quarantine requirement upon 100.0% of international inbound passengers then all of the onus is on those countries to come up to standard and eliminate their COVID-19 infections. The onus is not on us to be flexible about this.

              And I don’t know if you’ve been following ScoMo’s policy remarks (somehow I suspect you have) as he made it very clear to a media questioner re quarantine during an major update just last week that he will not be lifting Australia’s national quarantine requirement, “any time soon”. He was completely dismissive of the suggestion, and indicated Australia would not be doing that until COVID-19 was present globally.

              Yes, he said words to that effect. I may go see if there is video of a transcript, but that’s the gov policy and it isn;t going to be changing, possibly for several years.

              Peter, I want to remind you that you’ve repeatedly done a lot of bellyaching about economic damage, business closures, families loses, job destruction, the lockdown costs, but here you are admitting that quarantine does in fact work, yet you now want to put the damaged economy, undermined budget and industries and jobs all at risk again, via saying we should allow some people into Australia without quarantine restrictions!

              But at the same time you gripe that we can’t afford more ‘lockdowns’ (which we have never had, btw).

              And you don’t detect the yawning chasm of logical inconsistency there (as well as considerable hypocrisy) within the sum of those curiously evolving arguments? The inconsistency smells increasingly of an unstated agenda, so I’m left wondering what it is? You’re inconsistency is not accidental either as you’re a nuanced and clear thinker and communicator at other times, on other topics (especially re political bun fights and trying to influence votes).

              No more BS thanks Peter, at best it’s virtue-signalling, or concern-trolling, for unknown reasons.

              45

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                Or Ideology WXC.
                An ideology that in his mind,
                Trumps the facts and the science.

                35

              • #
                PeterS

                We can’t quarantine every incoming arrival unless they are detected to have the virus. If none is detected it doesn’t mean they don’t have it and so they can still spread it around. So once the borders are open it’s very likely we will have to suffer a second wave. The only way to avoid it for sure is to keep the borders closed until we have a viable vaccine, which might be years if ever. I don’t think anyone would want to keep the borders closed for that long.

                52

              • #
                WXcycles

                Our PM does.

                And again, with out evidence or reason, you insist there’s some imagined reason to abandon 100.0% quarantine on all incoming travelers – nope.

                Just don’t whine anymore about economic damage, deficits, job loses or the cost of a ‘lockdown’ again, if that’s your position, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

                10

            • #
              Kalm Keith

              Besides the unknowns Peter wrt the behaviour of the virus, we have bigger issues with the government and media.

              Very few citizens trust either because of the past patterns of behavior where truth is made secondary to the needs of those two groups.

              The taxpayers are not given much thought at all.

              So what if thousands of New York aged care residents have their last day brought forward because some clown sent sick old people back to nursing homes to clear the hospitals ready for the big rush.

              What is the truth? Who do you trust.

              KK

              34

              • #
                PeterS

                I trust no human, including myself. Hence one should do their own research well and apply appropriate risk management best practices. Of course most people don’t do that as it takes a lot of effort, and instead rush through the fog. Some are lucky and survive but most don’t.

                32

              • #
                WXcycles

                Personally I think news and political media should be banned completely, and just leave it ti debate online about events (which is bad enough and infested with trolls and miscreants), the mass media tell many more misrepresentations and politicized warped lies as then it ever tells the truth or tries to actually help. Even locals know that the ‘local news’ is clap trap. So what is the worth of ‘journalists’? Nothing in virtually all cases.

                In fact when it comes to COVID-19, Epoch Times’s youtube doco did it better than anyone else’s billion dollar mass-media outfit.

                The first documentary movie on CCP virus, Tracking Down the Origin of the Wuhan Coronavirus
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bXWGxhd7ic

                Where has the broadcast mass-media done anything as factual or equivalent, yet? They’re too busy telling politicized lies about everything, once more, as required by their despicable owners and their vile ‘producers’, who frankly should be in prisons, not free to broadcast more blatant mass lies everyday to undermine the society.

                30

          • #
            Bright Red

            Jo “6-8 weeks of proper lockdown (not sabotaged by open borders as in US/UK)”
            Seems that you are saying that a lockdown is not viable without quarantine which we can agree on. Problem is that a lockdown is also dependent on everything going to plan and that every citizen will fully comply and that the measures taken will work. This is a big ask and is the reason I don’t share your optimism that a short sharp lockdown would work and not turn into a longer drawn out lockdown that you are trying to avoid. Data for VIC shows 20% of the population violate lockdowns. How many cops with guns would it take to solve this? The term lockdown is being used to describe a lot of measures that have been put in place and we don’t have a clue as to how effective any of them have been and most measures have nothing to do with being locked down. Is it social distancing, better hygiene or that people are no longer game enough to show up at the supermarket sick and coughing their way down each isle.
            I think you need to put a realistic chance of success on a real world lockdown with real world people involved with measures that would be acceptable in the west along with the cost. I agree a short lockdown could in theory work but the question is will it actually work? and at what cost especially if it failed (flushing gurgling sound).

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        TedM

        We need to develop innovative ways of conducting business at all levels safely, during a pandemic.

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      OriginalSteve

      I think there is a middle ground to be had. If we assume its another part of the viral landscape, I propose we have medical “flying squads” ( similar to UK TAC squads, but preferably without rifles ) that can respond quickly to contain the rotten thing. Meanwhile the rest of us can push things back to normal.

      I am careful about suggesting we do not live jumping at shadows. My thoughts are that this appears to be a form of bio-terrorism, and by cowering in a corner we let the terrorists win.

      The other thing – and this is just as important – is that by cowering, you allow potential abuse of govt power and we become no better than living in a Chinese-like police state where the reins can be pulled tight on us for the flimsiest of excuses, because they now can. Funny , that.

      I also notice across the planet “Covid-safe”-like apps are being pushed out, which makes me wonder.

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        Greg in NZ

        Free to fly at last… “Show your I.D. comrade!”

        https://www.globalresearch.ca has an article linking to IATA’s ‘moving forward roadmap’ which ‘suggests’ passengers should have to carry digital electronic ID proving they are healthy and ‘safe’ before being allowed to travel by plane.

        This ‘immunity passport’ sounds like a great idea, until you realise a certain Fauci, Gates & Co. have been pushing it for yonks. Gee, I wonder what they might call it – let me hazard a guess: Certificate Of Vaccination Identification 2019, or for short, COVID-19. Just a thought.

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          Or we get rid of the virus and the need for tracking Aps and health passports.

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          OriginalSteve

          Yep and I suspect the same responsible for the rotten virus are also now capitalising on it.

          Qui Bono, as usual.

          If people cower in the corner they might as well bend over and offer both checks to be branded…or have a needle in each….with a nasty RNA vaccine in it. No thanks.

          Our freedom is in danger right now from an agressive end run around freedom using the virus as a cover. Exercise your freedoms and demand a proper solution. Dont whinge later when the only way you can leave home is after the govt has its hand up your rear end up, to the elbow via an “immunuty passport”.

          Freedoms are hard fought for, but easily lost.

          Question is – what stories will you tell your grandchildren?

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      WXcycles

      The question that I see still unanswered, is how we deal with the prospect of reinfection, assuming that we can achieve clean status in the first place.

      We’re doing it and it’s working. What’s you’re alternative, give up without trying? When what we are doing is working so well? In what world does that make sense?

      Do we engage in s perennial series of lockdowns – each with its own 100 billion dollar increase in government debt?

      Why would we ever need to? We won’t be letting it take off within Australia again, there are and will be local isolations as outbreaks are found. You would prefer that was not being done?

      It costs us every year to combat the flu, as well, would you like us to stop what’s works against flu too? We chose to combat flu strains so that it does not get to spread freely and kill as many people every year. That’s the received wisdom of many generations of people who dreamed of creating a world where such diseases could be limited or beaten. It worked, we now have that.

      Combating diseases has a cost and we chose to pay it, because it is undeniably worth the cost.

      If you don’t like it you could emigrate to Sudan, or Chad (one of my personal favorites!). Or if we developed a time-machine you could jaunt back to the 17th century and avoid all that silly health care spending and warped modern values and priorities.

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        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        G’day WXc,
        Jo’s headline mentions Costa Rica, and the only other reference to that country that I’ve seen is in the link below, together with my notes:

        Dr Chris Martenson, Youtube, 40 mins, of 22/4/20
        Hcq is zinc ionophore (at 6 mins), and give it early.
        Costa Rica using hcq. (10 mins). Graph v world at 12 mins.
        Vitamin D3 and zinc levels should be measured – 32 mins

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLSYRqcg0wo&feature=emb_logo

        I found the graph at 12 minutes particularly fascinating. Also that the country followed the medical approach that they obtained from China. They followed that advice early, and applied it early for individuals. Sounds like a good cure to me.
        Cheers
        Dave B

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          Bill In Oz

          Wikipedia has a huge article on the Corna 19 Virus in Costa Rica. In it is this paragraph :
          “On 16 March, the government also decreed a state of national emergency, due to the threat of the virus after being present in the country for only 10 days. In addition, lessons were suspended in all public and private schools and colleges until 4 April. Access to the country was also reduced to only Costa Ricans and permanent residents, a measure that will start a minute after midnight on 18 March and last until 12 April. Those entering must remain in quarantine for at least 14 days …”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Costa_Rica

          There has been no international tourism to Costa Rica since March 16th.

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          TedM

          Excellent link DoC in Oz. Thanks for posting.

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          WXcycles

          Thanks Davo.

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        PeterW

        Our borders are not as impermeable as you seem to imagine…..

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          el gordo

          Australia is an island continent and impermeable, unless you know something the rest of us don’t.

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            PeterW

            There are these things called boats and aeroplanes……

            We are not keeping all the illegal immigrants out.
            we are not keeping all the smugglers out.

            This is not a secret. Not a conspiracy theory……. just the real world as opposed to ivory-tower theory.

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              Kalm Keith

              And doesn’t China have its own airport now in Western Australia?

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                WXcycles

                They can’t use it however they wish Keith, they need to get an international plight plan lodged and a flight clearance from Air Services Australia to enter and fly into Australian airspace. They have to file that plan well before attempting to enter the ADIZ boundary ‘tripwire’. The A and D in ADIZ stand for national “Air Defence Identification Zone”. Every incoming flight has to enter a specific location at or near a planned specific time, at a planned altitude (+/- 200 ft), with a known approved flight plan. And to contact Air Services controllers before it can fly into Australian Air Space. ADIZ controllers are usually air force controllers. Any breach of requirements and the air force and Canberra are immediately on to it. It is a proper air defense process, and breaching that is going to affect everyone on that aircraft. Unplanned air traffic can and will be detected. Australia has access to radar and US space-based tracking surveillance if we need to check. No flight plan means refused entry, and that can and will be backed up by military force, including interception by fighters with orders to divert the aircraft to another airfield, before they land, and Federal police to confiscate aircraft and charge people with air regulation breaches which carry serious criminal penalties, including prison time if convicted — and they would be.

                The whole process is very formal and taken seriously. It’s backed up by national and international Intel on all flights in the region. That process has been used before to protect Australia’s and neighboring national interests. It was used about 20 years ago to protect PNG’s airspace from a European mercenary outfit shipping Russian gunship helicopters into PNG. The heavy cargo aircraft was intercepted by RAAF and all aircraft and weapons were confiscated. Those aircraft never flew again, the merc company involved suffered large financial losses. No one tried that again since.

                In the case of China they’ll be always get monitored and checked by sensors (not just data feeds) and by physical inspections. I think everyone understands now that if you give China an inch they’re going to take much more than an inch, and will keep doing it until they meet a force that won’t let them get away with being a law unto themselves.

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              Kalm Keith

              [Duplicate]AD

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              el gordo

              Peter we stopped illegal immigrants. What country do you live in?

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      Analitik

      how we deal with the prospect of reinfection, assuming that we can achieve clean status in the first place.

      At this point, I’m almost praying that Hydroxychloroquine with zinc as a preventative medication and possibly Azithromycin and Ivermectin as treatments prove effective since the history of vaccines against coronaviruses is not encouraging.

      Affordable, safe medications is where I see our long term future for coping with CoViD-19

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    MudCrab

    And News Corp needed three people to write this adventure?

    Okay, real world time – What do you need to fly people from A to B?

    Airplanes?

    Airports?

    People and equipment to refuel and maintain airplanes?

    So, if you have these already then WOOOO!!! Then again if you have these things already then discussions on flying from ‘bubble to bubble’ are moot because basically all you are doing is re-opening your old pre-existing supply chains.

    If you don’t own these things you are basically building a new supply chain from scratch. Not impossible but remember you are trying to ‘rush to join plans’, so you are on a time budget. This time budget in context is entirely dependent on the rest of the world – or more importantly the parts of the world who are already major travel hubs – decide that WHO and the Imperial College can’t be trusted and Wuhan is actually just like the flu and re-open their airports.

    Remember, they don’t need to have to have ‘clean’ countries, they just have to convince their travel customers that their airports are safe and safe is a relative term.

    Honestly this news article is a unicorn away from a Green New Deal type dream and makes no allowance for the rest of the world and what they are in the process of doing.

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      PeterS

      Well said. In other words, pie in the sky stuff. I am really amazed how anyone even thinks that way in the real world. Bubble tunnels? LOL.

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        el gordo

        Its worth noting that 70% of our tourists are domestic travellers, so we can give the finger to the rest of the world. Also, the $40 billion we’ll lose from keeping out foreign students will be a blessing in disguise.

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          PeterS

          Finger to the rest of world would be a bad mistake.

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            Bill In Oz

            Putting the finger up to our elderly Australians
            ( Your fate is to die from the virus ! )
            Would definitely be a no no

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            el gordo

            We maintain good trade relations, but all foreign humans are banned from entering unless free of Covid-19 and flu. Two weeks quarantine before entering and then two weeks more when they fly in.

            Australia doesn’t need tourists, students or immigrants, we would simply be a quarry and food bowl.

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      Mudcrab, did you read the article? It’s a long one mentioning many countries.

      I hear Israel have airports and planes, and knowing them, probably 3 months more fuel than we have in Australia.

      Presumably there were already a few direct flights to Israel, but they couldn’t compete with the cheap high volumes going through Dubai and Qatar. Now that a two week quarantine has been added to the price of those flights, paying a bit more to fly through Israel may look like a bargain.

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        Bill In Oz

        Jo, here we are it’s the 1st of June.
        Our knowledge of this virus has expanded hugely since early February when you first posted about it.
        What strategies would you recommend now to our governments given the benefit of all the knowledge gained since February ?

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    yarpos

    This is an advantage? I guess it shows how people can look at the same thing as see totally different things. To me this is a great example of the corner we are in now. Stil there will probably be no great answers for anyone for a year or so.

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      WXcycles

      This is an advantage?

      If your economy is open and operating, with almost zero virus present – yes.

      If your hospitals are open and operating – yes.

      If you have no COVID-19 deaths – yes.

      If effective affordable antiviral treatments are developed – yes

      If your population has resumed an almost completely normal social life – yes.

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    george1st:)

    Is this ‘Goodbye Dubai’ ?
    Things are a’changing , big things grow out of small beginnings .

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    Bill In Oz

    Costa Rica, or Puerto Rico ?’
    ( The territory which is part of the USA )
    We have been waiting for evidence of seasonality now since this pandemic started.
    So I’ve been looking at tropical places which do not have much temperature seasonality like Brazil where 26,700 + have now died mostly in the equatorial regions of Brazil. And in the USA there is the island of Puerto Ricco in the tropical Carribean sea. On that island 132 people have died in a population of 3.7 million.
    Puerto Rico is thus interesting :
    1; It is an island and thus could institute a quarantine like Australia has done
    2: The number of dead is ~30 more than Australia which has a population of 24 million
    3: It has a tropical climate and thus should have benefited from higher temperatures and lots of sunlight.

    On the face of this evidence, anyone claiming that Australia has benefited from it being Summer when this disease hit is simply wrong.

    A pretty complete outline of how Puerto Rico’s government has responded to the Corona virus can be found here :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Puerto_Rico

    The airport was closed to all but returning Puerto Ricans in mid March and a lock down enforced.

    But note bene, these are just the facts. Most people reading here will just be very annoyed at these facts and red thumb this messenger. Science shall be ignored… Only their ignorant opinion counts.

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    Bill In Oz

    Meanwhile here in South Australia, the work at eliminating the virus has resumed with no new cases ( so far ) since last Sunday’s stuff up.

    So the News.com decided to do a series of articles focussing on how South Australia has ( mostly ) had such success dealing with this foreign virus. It also focusses on the 4 person team who have been in charge of the process. Interesting reports.
    https://www.news.com.au/national/south-australia/sa-weekend-inside-story-how-south-australias-top-leaders-came-together-to-quell-the-deadly-threat-of-covid19/news-story/5aec04215f4b2b6181c33c2dd76a7240

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    UK-Weather Lass

    I don’t think the UK will be joining the ‘virus free’ list any time soon unless of course new testing shows that a huge percentage of us are already immune.

    It’s becoming increasingly apparent why the UK was forced into a blanket lockdown across the Union, and it was nothing to do with following ‘the science’. As I have suggested before the real killer in all this was the divorce of public health from English local authority control in 2012/13. By centralising public health to PHE meant the plan was to run the system centrally without involving public health directors and councils who already had the essential local knowledge and experience vital to contagious disease control. If you don’t know what is happening on your own doorstep then you don’t know what is happening anywhere and you cannot target action. Experts are beginning to speak out against the rot.

    And, as if that were not bad enough, in an attempt to mitigate the damage done after almost a decade of shoddy testing and tracking the centralised department of health and social care has thrown £300m at local authorities ‘to do all they can’ to make the latest ‘world beating ‘ test and trace charade work. It started on Thursday but no minister can tell us how many cases it has so far currently tested and traced … The horse, meanwhile, is many miles away and loves its freedom.

    Northern Ireland meanwhile have a perfectly decent and effective manual trace system operating rather successfully! Who needs an ‘app’? You really couldn’t make this up.

    Even right wing politicians throw money at problems simply because they cannot be bothered to do a hard month’s work once in a while to truly deserve their inflated wages. We have forgotten what hard work and doing a good job means and have instead substituted making an easy profit by any means you can get away with as a measure of what is required.

    No wonder a tiny virus has been so successful at tearing our societies and communities apart.

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      Bill In Oz

      I always thought that Northern Ireland was part of the UK.
      How is it that they have a separate effective tracing system ?

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      UK WEather lass, thanks for the local info. Those of us downunder have watched in bafflement at the debacle in the UK. Commisserations.

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      Kalm Keith

      Thanks. Another interesting post, and just in case I misunderstood, you were saying that manual tracing is better than the use of electronic apps?

      KK

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        OriginalSteve

        I believe Japan and India have an agressive “boots in the ground” contact tracking that has given some considerable success…

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      PeterS

      Even right wing politicians throw money at problems simply because they cannot be bothered to do a hard month’s work once in a while to truly deserve their inflated wages. We have forgotten what hard work and doing a good job means and have instead substituted making an easy profit by any means you can get away with as a measure of what is required.

      That’s a very important observation that needs a separate thread for a proper discussion.

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        Analitik

        Yep, the climate alarmists rabbit on about “external costs” when assessing the overall impact of fossil fuels on humanity. Well how about we apply “external costs” to globalisation and assess Ricardo’s law of comparative advantage with that in mind.

        True conservatives seem the only ones who can undertake meaningful analysis, these days.

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      UK-Weather Lass

      Thanks for all the comments.

      The centralisation of public health control related to England only, since Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales have their own assemblies which sometimes make very sensible local political decisions at least some of the time, and retained local public health controls. The disease track and trace systems used in public health date back a very long time and, for my pains, I have had some input into writing computer programs to better accommodate such information for easier access, but not specifically linked to using mobile devices or smartphones as trackers. There are problems whichever way you go but the really basic requirement is data control i.e. who can best find the required information, where is it stored and located and how can it best be recovered or retrieved (which is what they already have in N. Ireland and elsewhere other than England it would seem).

      A tracking system involves all the commonest problems you come up against with any relational database because there are many exceedingly complex data connections. The key success point is right at the beginning of the design stage which is where you determine what you want the system to do, what information you need to collect, why you need to collect it, what output you want and how you are going to organise the whole to achieve all of these requirements. Until you get that, until you test it in both imagined and real world situations, and you are happy it works, it is not a product you can buy into, or something you can throw together quickly because so many things will go wrong. In the meantime a track and trace manual system which has served its masters well is better than nothing (after all computers just do [some] things faster – even [some] very bad things!!!).

      I have worked in the UK public sector and wouldn’t want to return to it. The private sector (UK and elsewhere) isn’t really any better because corner cutting goes on and so I enjoy being my own boss and doing things properly alongside professional people I know and can trust and I am fortunate that there are still some very good people out there who do not believe money is the answer to anything and everything.

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    el gordo

    ‘About 80 students are self-isolating after a Melbourne outbreak linked to ‘multiple’ schools, as emergency powers are extended.’ Oz

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    el gordo

    Jakarta bats are tasty with a pinch of salt.

    “It’s hoax. It is not true that bats caused COVID-19. I’ve been selling this [bats] for many years, nobody gets sick here. No one. Also, many Indonesians eat bat meat and nobody is sick. I myself healed my asthma after consuming bat. It happened when I was around 25 years old. I’m a bit over 40, I am healthy now,” he says.’ The Age

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      Analitik

      The wild animals/wet market cross species transmission thing is a hoax to distract from the proximity of the WIV to the wet market that was deemed the core of the outbreak.

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        OriginalSteve

        Correct. And apparently all offending samples of the virus were destroyed as things got ugly globally.

        Will certain people in the USA ask for a refund do you think?

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        el gordo

        The inquiry will most likely find that a disgruntled individual from the Institute released the virus at the wet market during his lunch break.

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    el gordo

    ‘The miner who was thought to be Australia’s youngest COVID-19 victim didn’t die from the virus, it has been claimed.

    ‘Nathan Turner, 30, was found dead at his home in Blackwater, in regional Queensland, by his fiancee Simone Devon last week.

    ‘We have just got word from our staff member, Nathan’s partner, that his autopsy report has come in and Nathan has been CLEARED as COVID 19 NEGATIVE,’ a post on Fairbairn Bakery Emerald read on Monday night.’

    Daily Mail

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