JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Tuesday Open Thread

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Tuesday Open Thread, 9.1 out of 10 based on 9 ratings

152 comments to Tuesday Open Thread

  • #
    TdeF

    The rate of infection is about mathematics, simple mathematics. This dead piece of chemistry we call a virus is fragile and cannot live without more victims and those who are infected either kill it or they die. Either way the virus ceases to exist. So mathematically stop the infection and you stop it. It vanishes. That’s theory based on our understanding of how it works, despite theories about herd immunity and vast numbers of unsymptomatic carriers.

    Now that’s fine, but for once to see this work so well and so fast is a real thrill, a massive relief, a reason for national celebration. Tens of thousands of lives saved. Without the latest medication, the innoculation, the panic.

    And it raises great hope for the future, that a life with viruses like SARS and MERS and Wuhan Flu is possible. Those 2,000 Australians a year who die from the latest mutation of another corona virus or mutation need not die. This nation wide reaction has shown there is a real desire to end death by virus. And an education for Australia and the world.

    So it’s not just a theory, a desperate gamble, it worked. And the billions being spent on detecting, stopping, curing and destroying this virus will spill over into a war on viruses which has never happened before on this scale. Ebola is terrifying, but it was overseas, like SARS and MERS. They can all be stopped at points of entry.

    And it gives great hope that the world is awake to fake science against real science, fake news against real news. Let’s hope the real Extinction Rebellion shuts down the ridiculous prices of electricity in this country and stops the theft of our money to give free windmills and solar panels and cash based on fake science. No more viruses and no more ripoffs. No more death by Climate Change, the greatest sc*m in the history of the world.

    Now we can only hope others can follow. And what did it really cost us?

    294

  • #
    TdeF

    And the reports out of North Korea the Kim Jong Un is gravely ill after heart surgery. That is possible. However there is another possibility, that the one country in the world without a single case of Wuhan Flu is in real trouble. Even at the top.

    “United States President Donald Trump wrote a letter to Kim Jong-un to express his willingness to work with him on dealing with COVID-19″

    It was refused. It may be too late.

    122

    • #
      TdeF

      You see, it’s a very odd time to go into any hospital for heart surgery. He’s only 36.

      121

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Sorry TdeF I had a flick through and didn’t see your post , going to be interesting if he does pass away as to the local reaction .
      Will it be more blood letting and another dictator or will the long suffering people make a break for freedom .

      50

      • #
        Richard Hill

        On the news tonight it was predicted that the sister of Jong Un (anther Kim!) will take over.
        Your remark about the “long suffering people” breaking out is out of date.
        Experience with the mass bombing of civilians eg in WW2 shows that the masses will accept almost any level of suffering.
        They don’t blame their own leaders, usually their hatred of the enemy is increased.
        Atom bombs only work because the leaders have a higher chance of getting killed.
        Modern doctrine is de-capitation. If you really want to win, remove the leaders.

        30

        • #
          Graeme No.3

          Possibly, but look at the disruption in Russia after the death of Stalin.

          30

        • #
          TdeF

          The game has changed with both China and South Korea. The incredible allure of prosperity is not to be taken lightly and North Korea has to be one of the most advanced imporverished nations on earth. Even the military are destitute and the people are starving and how knows how much havoc has been wrought by the Wu Flu?

          40

    • #
      TdeF

      Looks like another piece of CNN Fake News, poorly researched at best, at worst just made up. It has been denied on the record by South Korea. CNN has stopped being a news channel.

      50

  • #

    So then, has the bottom fallen out of total power consumption, or has it actually gone up? Has it fallen away so much that we can do without coal fired power? Is there really all that much difference at all? Is this going to be an indication of what the future looks like? (and here, I’m naturally just going to concentrate on Australia, and I have four independent sources I use for data collection, and in every case, they all agree with each other, within hundredths of a percent)

    Well, you’d actually be surprised.

    I was asked at one of the earlier Threads if power consumption had changed much, so I went away and did some checking, even though I have already been checking it all out, because, seriously, this is the chance of a lifetime to see what the future might look like.

    At the moment, it’s still a little early to notice. I’ve done some preliminary checking on the daily basis, and also on the Monthly basis, and at the end of April, I should have a better handle on it, and Joanne, if you’re interested in these Coronavirus times, I can write up a guest Post if you think there might be some interest.

    However, what I would like to do here, is to ask for some general input from the readers here as to what they ‘Think’ might be happening.

    So, I’m asking for guesses, be they calculated or just an outright guess, and some of you know enough to go and check, so I’ll see when that happens.

    Is power consumption higher or lower, and here, give me a percentage you think one way or the other.

    And also, thoughts, one way or the other, or even other things you might like to see.

    Tony.

    150

    • #
      TdeF

      Two things Tony. Firstly I would expect that the total guaranteed base electricity delivery was unchanged. You cannot build a country on unreliable wind and non existent solar and storage doesn’t work. Even pumping the Snowy water uphill is farcical. The whole idea of hydro was free energy. This isn’t free.

      The second is while manufacturing nearly dead, reducing national power requirements, how much energy is going into multiple mobile devices, laptops, parasitic chargers plugged in all day, home alarm systems, portable things we did not have on this scale just a decade ago? Compared to real needs like cooking, transport, heating and cooling, refrigeration. What is the electrical cost of this digital age?

      110

      • #
        PeterS

        That’s right. I bet there are lots more cooking going on at home; coffee, tea, lunch. Also more TV, be it live, movies, etc.. Then there are people with heaters/aircon during colder days. Lights. More home renovations using power tools. The list goes on.

        101

    • #
      Fin of The West

      Hi Tony,

      I would think mostly flat, with perhaps a slight fall

      60

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Possibly the same or very small drop for this time of year .

      50

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      I’ll hazard a guess and say power consumption has dropped off. With so much heavy industry idle the difference must be at least measurable. But we shall see.

      30

    • #
      RickWill

      China’s electricity consumption was down a whopping 3% on last year. Given that China sans virus would have grown by 3% I will say that Australia is down by 6% on last year for March and April.

      30

    • #
      toorightmate

      I would punt on flat.
      All the window gazing/clock watching public servants are still at work and they leave the lights on.

      20

    • #
      Robber

      Tony, I look forward to your analysis – you can get different answers week to week and month to month.
      OpenNEM has some fascinating data going back to 2006 showing the progressive rise in the share of generation of solar and wind.
      This year per AEMO the bottom has fallen out of the wholesale spot prices for electricity generation. For example:
      Victorian price for April 2020: $39.67/MWhr; April 2019: $98.44/MWhr, but that’s not necessarily because of the shutdown of the economy, because Feb 2020: $48.31; Mar 2020: $43.30;
      and 2018/19 avge $109.81/MWhr; 2019/20 avge $81.53/MWhr.

      20

    • #
      yarpos

      I will punt for a rise for the time of year. We dont have a significant manufacturing sector anymore. Lots of people at home , all lighting , heating , interneting and DIY’ng individually. No economies of scale. Probably a lot of HVAC still spinning in empty buildings.

      00

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/coronavirus-updates-live-who-warns-worst-of-pandemic-to-come-australian-death-toll-stands-at-71-20200421-p54lm5.html#p50cy2

    “Massive clinical trial to treat COVID-19 with HIV, malaria drugs begins
    The Royal Melbourne Hospital has started recruiting patients to be part of a massive clinical trial of two existing drugs to treat COVID-19.

    “Patients hospitalised with COVID-19 will be treated with HIV and malaria drugs and perhaps even head lice treatment in a bid to keep them out of intensive care.

    “The trial will begin without the promising antiviral drug remdesivir, which has been shown to work against coronavirus in cells in a lab and in mice infected with COVID-19.

    “Drug firm Gilead is restricting remdesivir to countries with bigger outbreaks of coronavirus, but if it becomes available it will be included in the Australian trial, the researchers say.

    “It was revealed on Tuesday that testing could also be expanded to include the head lice treatment drug ivermectin, after Monash University researchers suggested it could kill the virus in a test tube within 48 hours.

    “The study, dubbed ASCOT, will operate across 70 hospitals in Australia and 11 in New Zealand, with the Royal Melbourne Hospital already recruiting patients.

    “It will examine the effects of HIV drug lopinavir-ritonavir and hydroxychloroquine, which is commonly used to treat malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. Research will observe the body’s natural immune system to determine whether it can prevent COVID-19 patients from becoming so ill they require intensive care.

    50

    • #
      RickWill

      Hold the presses …. The latest on this is that it will be expanded to at least Singapore as Australia and New Zealand do not have enough current and potential cases to support the study, after crushing the infection.
      https://www.maitlandmercury.com.au/story/6729650/covid-19-drug-trial-under-way-in-australia/?cs=7

      The trial is expected to run for 12 to 18 months and as the pace of infections slows in both Australia and New Zealand, researchers are approaching other countries including Singapore to join the trial.

      Too late she cried -

      52

    • #
      David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

      Evening all,
      Back on April 12, at #6.3:
      http://joannenova.com.au/2020/04/urgent-new-medical-theory-on-coronavirus-hold-the-ventilators-stop-blood-clots-instead/#comment-2309401
      I posted this pair of links:

      Seems to me that this work is critical for patients who have progressed to the ICU. It also seems to me that an even better approach is to stop patients from needing the ICU, which can be achieved with Dr Zelenko’s (and others) approach using his “cocktail” of three known drugs, as detailed in:

      Rudy Guilliano interviews NY Dr Zerenko Video on hydoxychloroquine treatment. 41 mins. Excellent.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=1TJdjhd_XG8&feature=emb_title

      The justification for his approach is well explained in Dr Seheult in his video #34, showing the need for zinc.

      Role of chloroquine in take up of zinc into cell nucleus. Video. 17 mins.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7F1cnWup9M&feature=youtu.be

      Both the above links were supplied by other people in previous replies to Jo recently.

      My reason for repeating the comment is that the Channel 10 News at five tonight reported that two tests are being run here in Oz, and one – this is good bit – is using hydroxychloroquine. The bad bit is that zinc was not mentioned. And the same omission has occurred in the news descriptions of similar tests overseas.
      While the two videos are moderately long, many of you will have already seen them. As well as their substance I like their clarity.
      I can’t tell if this is a reporting oversight, a medical oversight, or some level of malfeasance.
      Does anyone know?
      Cheers
      Dave B

      100

      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        Does anyone know?

        Know what David?

        I’m not sure what your question relates to.

        What I am sure of is that there are some 91 trails scheduled for Hydroxychloride is one way or another. I checked these numbers last night – when I was putting together the list that I posted for the purist Andrew McRae, in Jo’s Viral Numerology thread of 19 April.

        Of those 91, just one (1) has been completed and that’s the Shanghai study, while another is currently underway in Spain. All the rest (89) are yet to commence. Yet. To. Commence. They’ll take months if not years to get a result through the red tape before they’re published.

        In the meantime, thousands die because so many medicos refuse to use the HCQ + Zn + Z-pack cocktail. And so many medical administrations don’t seem to care. Anti-Trump political hatred is killing people.

        You can check the troughers here at the US National Library of Medicine ClinicalTrials.com:

        https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=Covid-19&term=Hydroxychloroquine&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=

        Count them. So many research gunnas peering into the trough for money. It’s enough to make a brown dog sick.

        53

        • #
          Sceptical Sam

          Trials.

          11

        • #
          David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

          Thanks S S,
          My question refers to the immediately preceding sentence. Why is zinc not mentioned in any press reference to, or description of the trials?
          My concern is that any trial which does not include zinc is not testing the one option which has been shown to work, consistently, and in multiple countries. Why is it being ignored in published reports?
          Cheers
          Dave B

          90

          • #
            Sceptical Sam

            Yes, David A very good observation.

            I’ve just checked the list that I linked.

            There are only two trials out of the (now) increased number that include Zn in conjunction with HCQ. Those are Trial #24 and Trial #31. Both being undertaken by the same entity: ProgenaBiome, a USA company.

            Conclusion:

            They don’t want to know. They just want the money.

            60

            • #
              David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

              Thanks again S S,
              I’ve just gone through the trials at your link. There are now 117, and the only two I found are at #32 and #61, but are at that same company, so I assume they’ve resequenced their list??
              I also noticed some others are using vitamin C. Could that work in the absence of a zinc supplement?
              Cheers
              Dave B

              10

    • #
      Graeme#4

      The news tonight stated that this trial would take place over one year. Seems a bit long, to put it mildly.

      30

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Do they propose infecting patients
        For this trial ?
        If it is taking place over a year,
        The patients will either be dead or recovered…..
        Weird ?

        32

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Wow…this out-does Victoriastan…..

    https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-region-issues-rule-for-eating-ice-cream-during-coronavirus-20200421-p54lmq.html

    “Berlin: A German regional authority has responded to the challenge of lifting the virus lockdown by issuing regulations on how to eat ice cream in public.

    “While governments across Europe debate how to restart their economies, the state of Lower Saxony is focusing on more pressing issues. Customers buying an ice cream are allowed one lick in the shop to prevent it dripping on their clothes, before retreating to a safe distance to enjoy the rest, the regional government announced on Monday.

    “Ice cream shops are among thousands of businesses that will reopen for the first time in a month as Germany begins to lift its lockdown this week.

    “As with restaurants and cafes, eating on the premises remains strictly forbidden and customers are not allowed to consume food until they are at least 50 metres away.

    “But with spring temperatures already soaring above 20C, the regional government has ordered a special exemption to prevent ice cream melting.

    100

    • #
      PeterS

      That’s what happens when some people get a taste of power. Too bad they don’t focus on the really important issues, like spitting on the footpath. Or do they?

      81

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Old comment:

      In England everything is permitted except what is expressly forbidden.
      In France everything is permitted even what is expressly forbidden.
      In Germany everything is forbidden except what is expressly permitted.
      In (Soviet) Russia everything is forbidden.

      140

      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        Heaven:
        •The police are British (but not the 2020 version of police)
        •The cooks are French
        •The engineers are German
        •The administrators are Swiss
        •The lovers are Italian

        Hell:
        •The police are German
        •The cooks are British
        •The engineers are Italian
        •The administrators are French
        •The lovers are Swiss

        10

    • #

      From a microbiology point of view, icecreams should be only sold and stored in covered containers.

      There are few better ways to capture an air suspended virus than to wave a wet icecream through the suspension then lick it. The cold will preserve the germs on a warm day for longer too.

      But I agree, the one lick rules sounds silly and unenforceable.

      61

      • #
        Bill In Oz

        Well that’s the end of cone ice creams for me.
        I did not know that Jo
        But it makes sense
        Microbiologically.

        21

        • #

          Bill, just enjoy them in summer and away from Pandemics. Buy them at outdoor kiosks.

          Skip eating one on a crowded train full of coughing people…

          51

    • #
  • #
    Another Ian

    News – and something to think about

    “Common Sense and Human Interface – Georgia Governor Brian Kemp Announces Phased Reopening of Business Starting This Week…”

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/04/20/common-sense-and-human-interface-georgia-governor-brian-kemp-announces-phased-reopening-of-business-starting-this-week/

    50

  • #
    Another Ian

    The pot stirred

    “The Roth resolution and the Chinese virus”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/04/20/the-roth-resolution-and-the-chinese-virus/

    20

  • #
    Another Ian

    Stirred again

    “Germany sends China £130billion bill for ‘coronavirus damages’ – sparks fury in Beijing”

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1271028/Angela-Merkel-Germany-China-coronavirus-blame-Wuhan-Xi-Jinping-Trump-latest

    60

  • #
    David E. Slee

    There is one aspect of this whole Coronavirus debacle, and how we are going to get out of this hole, on which I’ve seen little in the way of comment by the Eggspurt medicos. This is the possible role for antivirals. Most medicos are stuck on the “only when we get a vaccine can we really beat it” track. I am afraid there is every likelihood that this won’t happen. We have done very poorly with most other viruses, especially of the Corona type. We could be waiting years and still not getting a viable solution.

    Because of their vaccine focus there is a general disdain for any answer via antivirals. Sure a few are talking about how they are having success with “this and that” (e.g. Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, Vitamin D3 etc.), but I am underwhelmed by the ability of the senior medicos to ignore this line of attack. It looks like a strong case of “Not invented here” amongst these Eggspurts who still want to hang onto their initial vaccination solutions to the bitter end. Or are they influenced by Big Pharma who want to avoid losing this business, as an opportunity, to some simple off-patent drugs which could cheaply be used around the world. They are also ignoring the possibilities for pzrofilactic methods to prevent infection in the first place.

    There is plenty of evidence (what they call “anecdotal”) of a number of promising pathways with antivirals. It beggars belief that so many of these Eggspurts show no real interest in even investigating all these existing cases. They know they have the answers!

    Certainly there has also been precious little in the MSM about these, and usually they can be relied upon to say only negative things on this subject. Our ABC and the Guardian are past masters at this. Just as something to prove that case by exception is the interview I saw only a few days ago on the ABC with Dr. Norman Swan. He said that he was coming around to thinking that the vaccination solution might never happen, and that antivirals might well be our only hope for a breakthrough. I hope he is right!

    100

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      “Anecdotal” is the level of proof required in a court of law…..

      Doctors are targetted by Big Pharma to use drugs and vaccines in med school, so are indoctrinated from the get go.

      50

      • #

        Doctors are targetted by Big Pharma to use drugs and vaccines in med school, so are indoctrinated from the get go.

        Umm yes,

        Prescribe medication and inoculate people. That is what we do. It is called Therapeutics and Pharmacology.

        Big Pharma provides the drugs and vaccines (mostly with decent quality control and reliable contents). Otherwise we would make our own, with the help of pharmacists. Just like the good old days. Edward Jenner made his own vaccine!

        But we would miss out on all the recent innovations and targeted therapies devised by massive research and paid for by investors since WW2.

        Alternative therapies are the province of Naturopaths, Chiropractors, Herbalists, Chinese Medicine practitioners, Osteopaths etc.

        62

        • #

          Knee jerk response to Original Steve.

          David and Original Steve are correct in respect to many doctors seemingly being unable to process “anecdotal evidence”. I agree with that but I was triggered by “Big Pharma”

          I have made more comments below relating to David E Selee’s post at #9.

          The Covid19 will have long gone before a vaccine is available and it will likely be no more effective than the flu vaccine (ie not very good).

          70

    • #
      RickWill

      Australia had 13 new cases on Monday. The reproductive rate is so low that zero new cases on a daily basis is very close.

      We know from Taiwan’s experience that automatically recording interpersonal contacts provides an extremely effective tool to rapidly crush any further outbreaks.

      The need for a vaccine or other medication is no longer relevant. Too late and now a waste of time. The frequently mentioned ASCOT study for various antivirals has needed to be widened to countries other than Australia and New Zealand because there are not enough existing cases to do a population representative study.

      The focus now needs to be on proofing the contacts app, ensuring high uptake and keeping borders closed to hosts of the virus; the simple lessons from Taiwan. I am certain that some forms of social distancing will persist for a long while. I do not expect to see Woolworths ripping out its checkout shields in the coming weeks.

      94

      • #

        The reproductive rate is so low that zero new cases on a daily basis is very close.

        Very likely, but only if local spread in measured. South Australia got a new planeload of 400 returning Aussies today and some of them will be positive.

        So the new cases are not indicative of the spread rate (R0).

        We cannot get to zero while we are flying back rescue missions. Some of those viruses will get out locally and we need to control them.

        Unfortunately it now seems that the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test is not reliable enough to use clinically and the new antibody tests are likely have a lot of false positives due to similarity of the Covid19 virus to influenza and the common cold.

        So it looks like we are stuck with quarantine and contact tracing. That works with Tb and it should work with Covid19 as well.

        82

        • #

          A good case in point is the Ruby Princess Crew, who will be taken off the ship and flown home, in a few days!
          https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coronavirus/first-ruby-princess-crew-members-disembark-after-coronavirus-isolation-hundreds-still-left-on-board/ar-BB12WRvk?ocid=spartanntp

          All wrong.

          They should have been taken off the ship 2 weeks ago and quarantined on land. When all are cleared they can fly home, with no risk to the airline crew nor to their home countries.

          That is My Humble Opinion!

          61

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Sounds logical.

            32

          • #
            Bill In Oz

            But Australia is not morally or legally responsible
            For the R P crew members who are healthy.
            And that is most of them
            Still
            It’s the company which has to sort all that out.
            Not us taxpayers here in Oz.
            ( Logical K K ? )

            26

            • #
              Sceptical Sam

              Come on Bill.

              When the French around-the-world sailor, what’s his name, (and the Pommy one) went turtle over in the Southern Ocean who pulled them out of the drink and who paid?

              Old muggins; the Australian taxpayer.

              We’ve had the tremendous economic benefits from the international cruise industry in this country. Hundreds of millions spent and hundreds of millions invested.

              I’d say we have at least a moral obligation. Perhaps even, in terms of the international protocols, a legal obligation (I dunno, just a feeling!). Help the poor sods. It’s the Australian way.

              Do unto others as you would….blah, blah, blah, etc.

              80

              • #
                Kalm Keith

                Good points.

                On the other matter, Peter was just making the point that you can’t quarantine people in a very contaminated, dirty vessel.

                But then, these decisions are being made by Australian authorities,so anything is possible.

                For the appropriate consideration.

                KK

                30

              • #
                Bill In Oz

                No.
                One sailer lost in the Southern Ocean >
                Ok Sort of
                But he did put himself in that extremely risky situation..

                As for ~ 1400 foreigner crew from 10-20 different countries,
                On a Cruise ship owned by a mega rich company
                Registered in some tin pot country like the Cayman Islands or Panama ?
                Definitely NOT.
                Sick crew can and have been taken off and sent to hospital at our cost.
                The healthy ones stay on board.They are the Cruise company’s problem
                That is the normal international law & practice.

                23

              • #
                Geoff Sherrington

                SS,
                What, more clearly, are the “tremendous economic benefits …. from the cruise industry”?
                There might have been tremendous personal gratification returns to wealthy couples screwing and boozing in novel surroundings, but economic benefits?
                Economic benefits are linked to mechanisms like multiplication (example, give seed money to an enterprise that succeeds in benefiting many people) or creation of new wealth instead of recycling of existing wealth (example, put money into finding a new mine).
                Australians now have a once in a lifetime chance to change the national expenditure pattern for the better. First, we have to think about what is “better”. Personally, I think it better to put more funds into childhood education, medical research into long time horrible like cancer, agricultural yields – and less into sitting for hours in front if a pokie pissing money into the pockets of the rapacious.
                There are many enterprises we can do without. How do we discover them? I am using a simple measure. After the first economic shock of the Corona virus, those enterprises quickest and loudest to scream for handouts are prime candidates. They are ones that mostly recycle OPM. They are ones selling shallow gratification like paid sports, with little or no component of improvement of the human condition. Geoff S

                21

              • #
                Sceptical Sam

                Well Geoff, I have to disagree with you.

                The cruise industry purchases inputs to enable it to operate out of Australia’s ports. These inputs include fuel, food and drink, labour. They pay port fees. Their passengers purchase on-shore tours, restaurant meals, souvenirs. They catch taxis, Ubers and buses while ashore. They pay GST on their purchases.

                All these activities add to Australian GDP – in the same way as does every tonne of coal mined. Cows have to be milked and the milk paid for. The bread has to be baked and the flour paid for. These products have significant value added in their end cost – unlike a tonne of exported iron ore.

                Australian passengers, undertaking domestic cruises, are, in effect, helping Australia’s balance of trade through import replacement expenditure.

                The international passengers follow similar spending pattern. In their case, every dollar spent while ashore is an export dollar that counts on the trade balance. Every dollar spent by the cruise company on supplies produced in Australia, is an export dollar.

                10

              • #
                Geoff Sherrington

                SS,
                From your comments about cruise ship values, can I assume that you have not passed exams in economics? Geoff S

                10

          • #
            Chad

            Just an observation on the R Princess situation..
            Does anyone know when the crew were first embarked..? January ? Dec, ? Last August ?
            Either way, most of them have been holed up together on that boat since the very first COVid 19 case, so months at the very least , with isolation practically impossible for a working ship.
            BUT,..to date , less than 200 of the 1100+ crew have tested +ve ..?
            That is a <20% infection ratio just amoung the crew… (many of whom would have had contact with some of the infected passengers also )
            also, were any of the crew amoungst the fatalities ??

            20

            • #
              Bill In Oz

              The cruise ship crew are almost all
              From poorer developing nations
              Like the Philippines, India, Pakistan, Indonesia.
              They are on very low rates of pay
              And mostly do the low skilled jobs
              That need a bit of English to communicate with the passenger.

              Such crew cannot afford to leave the cruise ship & fly home.
              And they need to wages that they earn from being on these ships
              To provide for families in their home countries.
              So unless they are sick with this disease
              They prefer to stay on board.
              That way getting home is the Cruise ship company’s problem
              And cost.

              21

        • #
          Bill In Oz

          They are all under police and medical supervision in a CBD hotel
          And not allowed out of their hotels rooms.
          If any of them are Corona 19 positive
          It will add to the SA total yes.
          but every one of them will be locked down and unable to spread.

          ( PS Notice the word ‘will’ Peter ? )

          24

      • #
    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Does any one remember Ivermectin ?
      There was a big puff of publicity about it
      And then nothing.
      Meanwhile people are getting it at farm supply stores.

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      Chad

      David E. Slee
      April 21, 2020 at 5:25 pm · Reply
      There is one aspect of this whole Coronavirus debacle, and how we are going to get out of this hole, on which I’ve seen little in the way of comment by the Eggspurt medicos. This is the possible role for antivirals.

      Dave, see my comment at 4.3.1.1 Ref the comments from dr Ahmed in this interview regardig the daily use in NY hospirals
      https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6150547021001

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    Bill Burrows

    At the bottom of the last Weekend Unthreaded (19 Apr 2020) I drew attention to an impending Court case before the NSW Land & Environment Court on 8 May 2020 when the NSW Environmental Defenders Office will challenge the NSW EPA to fulfil its charter. The EDO claims:
    “There’s a statutory mandate to protect the environment … but the EPA don’t (sic) have a current policy to regulate greenhouse gas emissions.
    “Those two things can’t co-exist.
    “You can’t be both required to protect the environment and then ignore its greatest threat.
    “We [are] simply asking the court to tell the EPA go and create environmental quality objectives with respect to greenhouse gas emissions, regulate the pollution and use their existing powers to do so.”

    See Comment 38 in Weekend Unthreaded (with original link – and also see: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/legal-action-against-state-environment-watchdog-over-climate-inaction/news-story/8debf9cfd360abf0817fc43966a6ccbb ) as well as Comment 39 of that Weekend Unthreaded post, for more details and ongoing discussion between myself and Robert Rosicka.

    The upshot is simply that the NSW Environmental Defenders Office, acting on behalf of Bushfire Survivors for Climate Action, will argue the EPA has a duty to protect NSW communities by regulating greenhouse gas emissions to levels consistent with a safe climate.

    With Jo’s forbearance I repeat my arguments (outlined at the end of that last Weekend Unthreaded and which probably were not seen by most commenters here) that sceptics should seek to enjoin this Court case and argue that increasing CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere are not the prime drivers of AGW and/or climate change. Commenters on many sceptic blogs (here and overseas) have often stated that they would win any argument on this subject matter if it was based on solid evidence rather than over-hyped models/opinions – and especially if all sides of the argument could be judged in an independent Court of Law. So – Quo vadis?

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      RickWill

      The NSW EDO appears to be a Mickey Mouse operation. Do they have the financial support to take on the bottomless pit of a government agency? That assumes the agency is not willing to regulate the basis of life on Earth.

      Hard to regulate the most powerful “greenhouse gas”.
      https://1drv.ms/b/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNg1uzA-KKFEvD5BzX

      Atmospheric water column cycles up and down about 5mm each year and there are long term trends of a similar range. 5mm does not seem much but when it is taken over the entire globe it amounts to 2500Gt. During the Austral summer the mass of the atmosphere increases by that amount and drops by a similar amount during the boreal summer. I would really like to see what action the NSW EPA would take to limit that variation on a yearly basis and long term.

      You may not have picked it from a cursory glance at the chart but heat loss from the globe is in phase with the water vapour – say what; it shows more water vapour is consistent with global COOLING. Well correlation is not causation but you can be certain that more water vapour, the most powerful “greenhouse gas”, certainly does NOT warm the planet.

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        AndyG55

        Water vapour gets into the atmosphere because of its cooling action.

        So more water vapour is an indication of more cooling effect.

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          Kalm Keith

          ?

          Are you being tricky or not.

          Beware of man playing with two edged sword.

          KK

          :-) :-)

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            Sceptical Sam

            Ah, So.

            Confucius say, tricky man playing with two faced sword likely to pierce water balloon.

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              Kalm Keith

              Andy left out the bit about how water gets into the air.
              ‘Cause it gets hot at ground level.

              Then it precipitates out at altitude when pressure relaxes and temperature drops.

              :-) :-)

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          RickWill

          Correct – in the sense that cooling means loss of heat not lower temperature. However that is not what is supposed to happen when there is more water in the atmosphere according to the “greenhouse gas theory”.

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      Peter C

      Thanks Bill,

      Your reference is from the Australian Newspaper and hence paywalled.

      Skeptics should try to intervene in the case, but I am not sure how we would be able to do so. Law suits are controlled by the plaintiffs and defenders legal teams as to the evidence they choose to bring to the case.
      The Bushfire Survivors for Climate Action will likely take the CO2 pollution argument as a given, relying on IPCC claims, supported by government agencies and their actions.
      The NSW EPA on the other hand may not try to defend the case. By loosing they stand to gain immense power to regulate CO2 emissions.

      I expect skeptics to be completely sidelined and ignored.

      The EPA in the USA played that game, encouraging law fare suits by environmental groups. It took Donald Trump to overturn the EPA and pull them back into line.

      The case is potentially a very serious threat to our national well being and I am very worried about the outcome.

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        Bill Burrows

        Thanks Peter C. Sorry I linked to a pay-walled article in yesterday’s Australian. Here’s a copy of the relevant section:

        “Bushfire survivors are taking legal action against the NSW Environmental Protection Authority in an attempt to force more significant climate change action.
        The Environmental Defenders Office, acting on behalf of Bushfire Survivors for Climate Action, will argue the EPA has a duty to protect NSW communities by regulating greenhouse gas emissions to levels consistent with a safe climate. It comes after a devastating bushfire season that claimed 25 lives and more than 2000 homes in NSW.

        EDO chief executive David Morris said they were seeking to compel the agency to create policies and objectives regarding greenhouse gas emissions. He said it was “staggering” that the state’s primary environmental regulator didn’t have a climate change policy.

        “They don’t have a policy with respect to greenhouse gas emissions at all,” Mr Morris said on Monday. “They don’t treat it like the pollutant that it is, and if you’re going to fulfil your aim, fulfil your statutory mandate of protecting the environment, there’s an inherent futility to that if you are ignoring the most important influencing factor on the environment long term which is stabilising the climate.”

        He said the EPA was empowered to act on climate change and the EDO would argue it also had a duty to do so.
        “It’s an agency with real teeth and it’s just not using them in respect of regulating greenhouse gas emissions and climate change,” he said. “We say that is in breach of its statutory duty.” ”
        ——————-
        And here is another reminder of an analogous Court case (which you alluded to) and that has been greatly exploited in propaganda by AGW promoters – “The worst event of the last 50 years occurred in April 2007 when the US Supreme Court decided in the case of Massachusetts v. Environment Protection Agency that Carbon Dioxide met the definition of an air pollutant – the vote was 5 for with 4 against this critical decision. And so Pandora was let out of the box, and climate alarmists found their raison d’être. The world today would be greatly different if one of those 5 assenting judges had come to the conclusion that CO2 was not a pollutant”. [Sorry - Misplaced the (recent)source].
        ————————
        So I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion Peter – i.e. “The case [NSW EDO vs NSW EPA] is potentially a very serious threat to our national well being and I am very worried about the outcome”.

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    PeterS

    The Kenny Report on Sky News showed a part of a Humphrey Bogart movie typifies Turnbull’s paranoia exercise on ABC last night (which I didn’t watch). Turnbull is some really sick puppy.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KekChFdIe00&feature=youtu.be&t=107

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        Roy Hogue

        And suppose they add all that money to the green climate fund. What will they do with it but harm to society since it has been more than adequately demonstrated that green energy doesn’t handle the job. Everything in modern society runs on energy. In fact society always depended on energy and when that energy was supplied by human labor life was hard and short.

        These green fools are delusional. Everlasting-fat-dumb-and-happy land does not exist.

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      Graeme No.3

      PeterS:

      If you face down a bull (from behind a stout fence is recommended) he** will turn around and all you will get is a dump of B.S.

      ** Except in Victoria where the latest orthodoxy is that Bulls can choose their sex.

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        Roy Hogue

        Bulls can choose their sex! Now that’s useful info. Let the Victoria folks know that they have made my day.

        I think that a bull will choose the opposite sex most of the time but I’m relieved to know that in Victoria, Australia they have a choice. We can’t have discrimination in this enlightened age.

        When will the rest of Oz allow a bull it’s rightful choice.

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    robert rosicka

    Seeing reports that the North Korean leader may have either died or is in a serious condition , supposedly after an operation .

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      Roy Hogue

      I hate to wish for his demise. It goes against my whole moral outlook on life but sometimes there are exceptions. It would provide an opportunity for a less brutal and more realistic leader to emerge. North Korea is trashed and the people in dire condition. I cannot believe all the Un leaders underlings enjoy living under the threat of death if they displease the boss.

      I could be wrong. Another like Un leader may be waiting to take charge, the son for instance. But he might be as bad as his father. But still, death of a strong man is a weak point in ironfisted control and I would like to see what happens.

      And I remember the condition of the soldier who managed to get across the DMZ to safety. Would the army rise up and support better leadership?

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    Another Ian

    Be thankful you’re not in Canada

    “Dr. Theresa Tam: Poster Child of the Peter Principle”

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/04/17/dr-theresa-tam-poster-child-of-the-peter-principle/

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    el gordo

    Jennifer Marohasy pours cold water on Terry Hughes claim that 60% GBR was recently bleached.

    https://jennifermarohasy.com/2020/04/coral-catastrophes-imagined/

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    • #
      PeterS

      Nice story, thanks. We here so many of the other stories about how the coral reef is dying or dead so often it has become a joke. Stories like Jennifer Marohasy’s are like smelling roses after leaving a rubbish tip, which is where the ABC belongs.

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      Graeme#4

      Peter F recently raised the possibility that computer imaging was perhaps used, but I note somebody’s calculation that to survey 1000 reefs over 9 days means an average of 6.5 mins/reef.
      It will be interesting to eventually find out exactly how this survey was carried out.

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      Bill In Oz

      She does a very good job of showing Hughes
      Well & Truly wrong.
      But the grant hunting must continue.
      He might get the sack at JCU otherwise.
      Good riddance to bad rubbish I think !

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    Ian Hill

    So lollipop stick workers controlling traffic on construction sites in Queensland are paid $180,000 a year!

    That fact will haunt me for weeks!

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    MrGrimNasty

    More perspective on the hype of CV19 versus reality and the crazy unwarranted economic suicidal response.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52361519

    The BBC “Number dying hits 20-year high”, so you only have to go back 20 years to find worse? Really not that serious then is it!

    Well really the ‘hype’ is worse than even that suggest.

    For very similar weekly mortality rates you only need go back to the influenza A(H3N2) subtype (which also predominantly affected older people), which was circulating from about 2014/15. There were sequences of at least 3 weeks each with England and Wales deaths in the 15,000-16,500 per week range.

    So CV19 really is no worse than a bad flu season.

    You’ll still get people saying oh well if it wasn’t for the lockdown it would have ‘exploded’, yet all the evidence from Sweden is that that isn’t the case, modest measures v. economic suicide and Sweden is better off all round.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-swedish-experiment-looks-like-it-s-paying-off

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    Paul Miskelly

    Hi Anton (TonyfromOz #3 above),
    The quick and dirty answer to your question re electricity consumption – and all readers can check this for themselves – is to go to anero.id, and have a look at the fossil-energy data for a month this year, during the shutdown, versus the same month last year.
    By all means look at April 2020 so far, but for the full months’ comparison,
    compare:
    https://anero.id/energy/fossil-energy/2020/march
    with:
    https://anero.id/energy/fossil-energy/2019/march
    In each case, for clarity, click on the big “MW” button at the top right of the chart.

    As “TdeF” speculated above, and as I told you at the recent Weekend Unthreaded:
    http://joannenova.com.au/2020/04/weekend-unthreaded-307/#comment-2314238, comment #7, I think),
    wind energy keeps falling over, (solar PV fails every night as we all know), so we can’t rely on them,
    so our Andrew’s “fossil-energy” is the quickest, best indicator.

    Rather than reveal the answer, perhaps everyone might go have a look for themselves and make up their own minds. Also, this should give some feel for what is the likely “extra” power consumption due to our extra usage of home PCs, mobile phones, etc.

    Great question Tony, and a very interesting one for us all to follow up.

    Cheers,

    Paul Miskelly

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    cedarhill

    Sit back, compare and ponder the issue that is circulating the i-net in the US: CV-19 is just like the 1918 Flu. While you’re locked down, if you need reading material. The first is just an abstract, the second is what it is… a book.

    As evidence emerges about CV-19 they’re not even close. CV-19 attacks the red blood cells (it seems) and takes several days to build to lethality while the 1918 flu was a quick killer. The risks groups were highly different as well.

    CV-19:
    Below (from China) is a brief explanation – there are several other non-China reports (since everything China seems to have a truthfulness issue these days) that point to dysfunction of the red blood cells (the “heme” in the abstract).
    https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173

    and explains why the malarial treatment likely works.

    1918 Flu Pandemic:
    compared to the best, imho, book on the 1918 virus:

    The Great Influenza https://www.amazon.com/Great-Influenza-Deadliest-Pandemic-History/dp/0143036491

    which explains how the 1918 flue killed with hours (24 to 36) which some point to a cykotine “storm” . . . regardless, it’s mechanisms that are debated are completely different than above as well as the at risk groups, etc. Oh, and I exspecially like the section on how one of the 1918 researches found the basis of what we call DNA today.

    There are several things of interest including:
    1. CV-19 disrupts/attacks red blood cells and their metabolism (remember metatbolism)
    2. 1918 destroyed breathing pathways of their protective mucus(slime if you will) leading to rapid lung infections (the suspected cytokine storm)
    3. Many of the elders will be those having the worst metabolic states accumulated as they age due to insulin resistance which is expressed as noted in their CV-19 “risk” factors of obesity, type 2 diabetes, hypertension.
    4. Compare how quickly CV-19 was decoded and pathways of action to 1918. It took decades to decode 1918 down to only a couple or so of mechanisms whereas in short order companies (in Israel for example) were producing CV-19 specific antibodies.

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      TdeF

      The 1918 flu was very different. 90% of victims were between 20 and 50.

      The impact of that was that WWI ended and that a whole generation was lost, followed by the world depression, mass unemployment and WWII. It all seems to be connected, a line of misery from 1914 to 1945, except for a short break in the early 1920s which looks to be the aberration, not reality. The US droughts in the 1930s. And the Holomodor in Ukraine. Misery piled on misery. As if WWI was not bad enough, the plague destroyed a generation.

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    Harves

    Firstly, accolades for our Govt who got it about right for 3 weeks or so. But what a pathetic do nothing approach for the last week or so. At a time when the plan for relaxing in some regions (with zero cases for weeks) should be being implemented, we are hearing that planning is just underway. Millions of dollars wasted, hundreds of businesses destroyed, tens of suicides, just because no one bothered planning for such a quick downturn in cases.
    And to think the Qld Premier only days ago is still spreading alarmist rubbish with “The worst is yet to come.”
    If the NT can have no cases for weeks but still be in level 3 lockdown, what will be the justification for easing restrictions elsewhere if other states still have new cases?

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      Bill In Oz

      Two weeks or so after the last infection has ben detected
      Is the time to consider unwinding the lock down.
      Why ?
      Because, then the virus in Australia will be eliminated.
      Some states have already git zero infections for the past 3 days. Eg South Australia
      So the clock has started ticking in SA.
      Good.
      I want my normal life back !

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      el gordo

      May Day should see a lifting of restrictions in the Territory and elsewhere, the government is aware of the clamour.

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    toorightmate

    The current protests in the USA are interesting.
    All are in states/cities controlled by Democrats.
    The worst areas in the USA for Coronavirus are Democrat controlled/governed areas.

    BUT let’s keep blaming Donald Trump.
    It is almost as though Republicans want to get back to work and Democrats prefer perpetual handouts.

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    Zed

    What would Nostradamus say?

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1jcTbf_3eC4/Xp6_84JKacI/AAAAAAAAmQk/tBm4VeHiCBwVOwdomPw16fjEvufrmz_cwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Nostradamus.jpg

    No doubt once the dust has settled there will be an awful lot of people who will realise they got it totally wrong, just like the climate alarmists.
    The demonstrated medical fraud alone SHOULD have woken most people up but it didn’t…
    I think I’ll go into the large flat rock business. Should make a fortune.
    From those who haven’t been wiped out by what comes after CV-19 that is.

    A fundamental rule of reality: the majority always lose.
    If you can’t see or refuse to see the big picture you are in deep doo doo’s.

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    Checklist of Green Deal cost elements
    By David Wojick
    https://www.cfact.org/2020/04/18/checklist-of-green-deal-cost-elements/

    The beginning:

    Green Deal proposals are springing up around the world. The core concept is zero CO2 emissions via decarbonization. The proponents of these Green Deals deliberately avoid cost estimates because the costs are horrendous. To help force these huge costs out into the open I have developed the following simple checklist of Green Deal cost elements. Any comprehensive cost estimate needs to address all of these elements, most of which are unbelievably expensive. I have included some comments on the cost drivers as well.

    Note that social elements like those in the Green New Deal (free health care, etc.) are not included. My list is just about the cost of decarbonization.

    Checklist of decarbonization cost elements (with comments)

    A. Electric power grid (with zero fossil fuel carbon emissions)

    1. Generation (from central power plants)

    Feasibility of CCS is a major unknown.

    2. Transmission

    Especially for widely distributed renewable sites.

    3. Distribution

    EV charging stations are a major addition.

    4. In-building or facility distribution (behind the meter)

    Most existing buildings may need rewired for EVs.

    5. Generation behind the meter

    Primarily solar.

    Note: Electrification of transportation and other fossil fuel uses will dramatically increase the amount of electricity required to be generated, transmitted and distributed.

    There are a lot more elements listed in the article.

    Please share this widely.

    David

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    Richard Ilfeld

    There is another kind of “social distancing” we need to impose after this natural disaster plus human debacle.

    In the US, 2/3 of our cases and deaths are in the Acela corridor from NY to Washington DC.

    If they were between Kansas City, Mo. and Kansas City, Kansas, would there be calls for continued shutdown?
    Heck, would there even be coverage?

    The left is opposed to our re-opening. A leading commentator, in America’s self proclaimed newspaper of record, writes:
    “Every person will be playing Russian roulette every minute of every day: Do I get on this crowded bus to go to work or not? What if I get on the subway and the person next to me is not wearing gloves and a mask?”

    DUh. in .001% of geographical America this is a possible fear. For 100% of our self-styled elites, it is the reality of their narrative controllers.

    This is now getting to be as big a problem as the virus itself.

    The population has been dispersing for a while now. It would be good if the media outlets followed them into the real world. Probably true in Oz as well?

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      dadgervais

      And, the weather guessers (forecasters?) are missing their chance. Surely, the social distancing rules are only correct indoors. When outside, there are winds which can increase the distance the virus might fly. We need a “social distance multiplier” with each forecast: Still air = 1; light breeze = 2; etc.

      Some clever lad (Musk perhaps) should produce helmets with weather vanes on top and omni-directional laser distance finders to compute when someone else is in dangerous proximity to us based on windspeed/direction. A compass app on our phone could point us to a safety zone.

      Never can be too careful.

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    Travis T. Jones

    With oil selling at less than zero,this is a good time to send a wave out to all the experts who predicted peak oil.

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    RicDre

    If China is a leader in fighting Climate Change, why are they buying more oil?

    State Media Celebrates Oil Price Collapse as Historic ‘Opportunity’ for China

    https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/04/21/state-media-celebrates-oil-price-collapse-historic-opportunity-china/

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    Another Ian

    “Why isn’t it embarrassing to be a Democrat?”

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2020/04/21/why-isnt-it-embarrassing-to-be-a-democrat/#comments

    And comments

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    Robber

    Where will Australia be in terms of active CV19 cases by May 1?
    In the last 7 days, 34 new cases per day, down from 63/day in the prior week.
    Recoveries averaging 225/day, total active cases now 1,888.

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    David Slee

    Re:- Chad April 21, 2020 at 11.10pm, on comment 9.4
    Yes I did see Dr. Ahmed on the “Outsiders” on Sky. Her comments about use of antivirals were only another example of what i was referring to. The point I was trying to make, though, was that notwithstanding the amount of evidence being found of the beneficial use of antivirals (especially in New York it seems), the senior medicos in charge of our efforts to deal with the CV seem blind to those benefits. As a result the ignore antiviral use, and continue to reiterate the necessity to find a vaccine before we can safely relax. DS

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      Chad

      Yes David, i agree,…here in Oz we seem to have a very “conservative” traditional approach to finding a workable solution to this situation. ..All in on a Vaccine !
      I hope we are mistaken and there is much more happening than is being reported.!

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    robert rosicka

    In Victoriastan it is illegal to go camping for recreational purposes .
    In Victoriastan it is legal to go camping if you’re protesting in a logging coup and you claim to be homeless .
    In Victoriastan the police have arrested a homeless indigenous person who was sleeping on a park bench .

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    Another Ian

    And the proverbial might be in the fan

    “Wuhan Flu: WHO Emails Leaked?”

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/04/21/wuhan-flu-who-emails-leaked/

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    Robber

    Interestingly, there have been 19,390 reported cases of influenza in Australia this year, but in April only 95 to date. In April last year, 18,667 reported cases – last few years April average 2,000. Flu normally peaks in July/August with 50-130,000 cases reported.
    In Australia, influenza on average causes 1,500 to 3,000 deaths each year, about 18,000 hospitalisations and 300,000 GP consultations each year.
    It would appear that lock downs and social distancing for CV19 are keeping flu isolated.

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      Chad

      ?? Are you saying there have been 19,390 flu cases between Jan 1 and April 1st,…. but only 95 since April 1st ?. That sounds like a reporting glitch .!
      Do you have access to the monthly or weekly data ?

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      el gordo

      Is it possible that the Covid-19 pandemic is a blessing in disguise, this Austral winter should see a precipitous drop in the death rate. As these new flu strains emerge from Asia, moderate isolation might become the rigeur in the years ahead.

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    AndyG55

    https://youtu.be/Zk11vI-7czE

    Michael Moore’s new film wakes up to the huge problems of so-called renewables…

    Worth a watch if you have the time.

    They still go along with the anti-CO2 farce, just totally TRASH Wind and solar

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    Raving

    “Worker dies, hundreds sick as Cargill temporarily closes meat-processing plant at centre of COVID-19 outbreak”

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/cargill-meat-plant-closed-outbreak-covid-19-1.5538824

    A growing cluster in a meat packing town. 187 new infections in Alberta today

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    el gordo

    Following up on my earlier research, the warm SST hot spot east of New Zealand, I’m confident it has something to do with the Pacific Antarctic Ridge.

    https://earthquaketrack.com/r/pacific-antarctic-ridge/recent

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    UK-Weather Lass

    I’d recommend everyone watch ‘Planet of the Humans’ a movie produced by Michael Moore on YouTube which doesn’t just explodes the myth of the green revolution, it absolutely destroys it and much more besides. It is not a film to watch if you love happy endings.

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      AndyG55

      “It is not a film to watch if you love happy endings.”

      That’s because Michael Moore and buddies are still of the very mistaken belief that human released CO2 is doing the planet harm, when in fact, the exact opposite is true.

      The so-called renewables are responsible for most of the most horrendous pollution on the planet.

      Most western countries are far cleaner and far more livable than they were 50-60 years ago.

      Humans can survive well and exist well into the future…

      so long as we get away from the absolutely anti-science, anti-life, idiocy of the anti-CO2 agenda.

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        UK-Weather Lass

        ” … so long as we get away from the absolutely anti-science, anti-life, idiocy of the anti-CO2 agenda.”

        That is very true of the present situation faced by the anti-fossil fuel brigade – their alternatives are not alternatives at all. The very ‘nature’ of the continuous circular argument within the film – everything arrives back at fossil fuel – should knock some sense into those who believe we have the technology to make a cleaner switch now – we don’t and we cannot.

        10