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	<title>Comments on: Tuesday Open Thread</title>
	<atom:link href="http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/</link>
	<description>A perfectly good civilization is going to waste...</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:08:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: el gordo</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282583</link>
		<dc:creator>el gordo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282583</guid>
		<description>On the other side of the world the First Fleet officers were all in agreement that Southern Ocean climate was exceedingly cold for December in the Austral summer.

They were travelling in the Roaring Forties and continually hit by snow, hail, wind and huge seas, then it would just stop and the fleet became becalmed, only for the tempest to begin again.

I&#039;m visualising a synoptic chart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the other side of the world the First Fleet officers were all in agreement that Southern Ocean climate was exceedingly cold for December in the Austral summer.</p>
<p>They were travelling in the Roaring Forties and continually hit by snow, hail, wind and huge seas, then it would just stop and the fleet became becalmed, only for the tempest to begin again.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m visualising a synoptic chart.</p>
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		<title>By: el gordo</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282547</link>
		<dc:creator>el gordo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 23:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282547</guid>
		<description>What is happening now, happened before, and the effect on the ground during the Dalton Minimum is remarkable.  You can see  the fingerprint of blocking caused by a wayward jet stream.

UK weather from 1780-1820

&#039;During grand minimums sometimes the winters in the UK were mild, sometimes very wet and sometimes very cold. Often there were extremes, sometimes all in the one winter. The summers were sometimes hot, sometimes very wet and other times quite mild. Sometimes there were extremes of heat and rain in the same summer. During these periods there were many severe storms in the UK.&#039;

Actuaries Institute 2013</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is happening now, happened before, and the effect on the ground during the Dalton Minimum is remarkable.  You can see  the fingerprint of blocking caused by a wayward jet stream.</p>
<p>UK weather from 1780-1820</p>
<p>&#8216;During grand minimums sometimes the winters in the UK were mild, sometimes very wet and sometimes very cold. Often there were extremes, sometimes all in the one winter. The summers were sometimes hot, sometimes very wet and other times quite mild. Sometimes there were extremes of heat and rain in the same summer. During these periods there were many severe storms in the UK.&#8217;</p>
<p>Actuaries Institute 2013</p>
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		<title>By: el gordo</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282473</link>
		<dc:creator>el gordo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&#039;Are you sure about that? Cooling leads to compaction which is an increase in density ...&#039;

Thanks, so can I say the jet stream is meandering because of compaction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Are you sure about that? Cooling leads to compaction which is an increase in density &#8230;&#8217;</p>
<p>Thanks, so can I say the jet stream is meandering because of compaction?</p>
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		<title>By: WXcycles</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282096</link>
		<dc:creator>WXcycles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282096</guid>
		<description>btw as I remember NASA&#039;s original &#039;SkyLab&#039; space station was a victim of that same atmospheric expansion during mid-1979. That&#039;s what slowed it down and caused it to fall out of orbit, whereupon the burned up bits were strewn across the southern ocean and Western Australia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>btw as I remember NASA&#8217;s original &#8216;SkyLab&#8217; space station was a victim of that same atmospheric expansion during mid-1979. That&#8217;s what slowed it down and caused it to fall out of orbit, whereupon the burned up bits were strewn across the southern ocean and Western Australia.</p>
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		<title>By: Zoe Phin</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282091</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoe Phin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282091</guid>
		<description>&quot;the black body cavity absorber that absorbs 2.5 w/m2 that you define&quot;

What are you smoking?

2.5 W/m^2 is not EM radiation.

Plug 50C into SB formula.

Why would you plug CONDUCTIVE heat flux into SB formula???

Use the correct calculator

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/conductive-heat-transfer-d_428.html

Why are you trying to equate a DIFFERENTIAL with an ABSOLUTE?

Why are you ignoring my comment?:

If A is in the x,y dimension,
L is in the z dimension.

k is in units W/(m*K), and also in the z dimension.

The m^2 in W/m^2 are not even for the same dimension.

Can you divide in the z-dimension by the z-dimension and get something equivalent to the x,y dimension?

No, you can’t.

---

I take it you will continue to spin in circles and repeat yourself ad naseum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the black body cavity absorber that absorbs 2.5 w/m2 that you define&#8221;</p>
<p>What are you smoking?</p>
<p>2.5 W/m^2 is not EM radiation.</p>
<p>Plug 50C into SB formula.</p>
<p>Why would you plug CONDUCTIVE heat flux into SB formula???</p>
<p>Use the correct calculator</p>
<p><a href="https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/conductive-heat-transfer-d_428.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/conductive-heat-transfer-d_428.html</a></p>
<p>Why are you trying to equate a DIFFERENTIAL with an ABSOLUTE?</p>
<p>Why are you ignoring my comment?:</p>
<p>If A is in the x,y dimension,<br />
L is in the z dimension.</p>
<p>k is in units W/(m*K), and also in the z dimension.</p>
<p>The m^2 in W/m^2 are not even for the same dimension.</p>
<p>Can you divide in the z-dimension by the z-dimension and get something equivalent to the x,y dimension?</p>
<p>No, you can’t.</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>I take it you will continue to spin in circles and repeat yourself ad naseum.</p>
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		<title>By: WXcycles</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282090</link>
		<dc:creator>WXcycles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282090</guid>
		<description>As a general rule the subropical jets are not deep enough to reach the stratosphere (or the ground). The strongest and deepest subtropical jets of the last 2 months have been periodically interacting with the lower-most stratosphere. It&#039;s just a passing local transient rather than a general interaction with the whole upper jetstream. But it does operate continuously right up to the tropopause elevation. It tends to get wider but slower with increasing height. So does the polar-jet, but it&#039;s restricted by the lower tropopause above it.

The tropopause is the limit of convective processes and is defined by a sharp fall in humidity level. Normal convection mixing takes moisture that high, and no higher, except for smaller scale vertical waves and super-cell thunderstorms rising past it periodically.

The lower stratosphere is not warmed by the troposphere, in fact the temperature above the tropopause continues to fall lower until the temp inversion occurs ~10k to 15k feet above the tropopause level.

&lt;blockquote&gt;As the thermosphere and mesosphere cool and lose density ...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Are you sure about that? Cooling leads to compaction which is an increase in density of the same quantity of matter at a lower level, i.e. the drop in density is just because that layer uniformly fell in altitude. 

I talked to a retired guy in the late 1990s from GSFC who told me that their geodetic satellites had slowed down from friction and fallen slightly lower as they were being affected by an expanding rarefied thermosphere as the Sun became more active during the 1970s and early 1980s. The expansion surprised them at the time, so the current re-compaction phase should be a new thing as well. 

I&#039;m interested in whatever you find out about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a general rule the subropical jets are not deep enough to reach the stratosphere (or the ground). The strongest and deepest subtropical jets of the last 2 months have been periodically interacting with the lower-most stratosphere. It&#8217;s just a passing local transient rather than a general interaction with the whole upper jetstream. But it does operate continuously right up to the tropopause elevation. It tends to get wider but slower with increasing height. So does the polar-jet, but it&#8217;s restricted by the lower tropopause above it.</p>
<p>The tropopause is the limit of convective processes and is defined by a sharp fall in humidity level. Normal convection mixing takes moisture that high, and no higher, except for smaller scale vertical waves and super-cell thunderstorms rising past it periodically.</p>
<p>The lower stratosphere is not warmed by the troposphere, in fact the temperature above the tropopause continues to fall lower until the temp inversion occurs ~10k to 15k feet above the tropopause level.</p>
<blockquote><p>As the thermosphere and mesosphere cool and lose density &#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Are you sure about that? Cooling leads to compaction which is an increase in density of the same quantity of matter at a lower level, i.e. the drop in density is just because that layer uniformly fell in altitude. </p>
<p>I talked to a retired guy in the late 1990s from GSFC who told me that their geodetic satellites had slowed down from friction and fallen slightly lower as they were being affected by an expanding rarefied thermosphere as the Sun became more active during the 1970s and early 1980s. The expansion surprised them at the time, so the current re-compaction phase should be a new thing as well. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m interested in whatever you find out about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Zoe Phin</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282087</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoe Phin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282087</guid>
		<description>Couldn&#039;t wait, eh? ...

https://phzoe.wordpress.com/2020/02/26/instructions-for-windows-users/

Linux is better tho :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couldn&#8217;t wait, eh? &#8230;</p>
<p><a href="https://phzoe.wordpress.com/2020/02/26/instructions-for-windows-users/" rel="nofollow">https://phzoe.wordpress.com/2020/02/26/instructions-for-windows-users/</a></p>
<p>Linux is better tho <img src='http://joannenova.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Zoe Phin</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282085</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoe Phin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282085</guid>
		<description>2W is a DIFFERENTIAL of two locations with HIGH kinetic energy.

Gosh, you have a thick skull.

Do you know the difference between profit/loss and assets/liabilities?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2W is a DIFFERENTIAL of two locations with HIGH kinetic energy.</p>
<p>Gosh, you have a thick skull.</p>
<p>Do you know the difference between profit/loss and assets/liabilities?</p>
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		<title>By: Zane</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282082</link>
		<dc:creator>Zane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282082</guid>
		<description>Last time I was in Laos a few years ago it was interesting to see two brand new Lamborghinis by the kerb outside a chicken rice shop in central Vientiane. The importer&#039;s office was the shophouse next door, lol. The only types in Laos who could afford a Lambo are the rich princeling kids of the original Pathet Lao communists who took over in 1975. Marxism can be quite a lucrative ideology if you are the one holding the AK-47 and controlling the central bank. Every year the West gives you billions in foreign aid. The trick is to stay poor, so the welfare payments keep coming...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last time I was in Laos a few years ago it was interesting to see two brand new Lamborghinis by the kerb outside a chicken rice shop in central Vientiane. The importer&#8217;s office was the shophouse next door, lol. The only types in Laos who could afford a Lambo are the rich princeling kids of the original Pathet Lao communists who took over in 1975. Marxism can be quite a lucrative ideology if you are the one holding the AK-47 and controlling the central bank. Every year the West gives you billions in foreign aid. The trick is to stay poor, so the welfare payments keep coming&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Zane</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282073</link>
		<dc:creator>Zane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282073</guid>
		<description>Skeptics are now being called climate obstructionists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skeptics are now being called climate obstructionists.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282067</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282067</guid>
		<description>Okay. I&#039;ll take the &quot;heat&quot; for screwing up the algebra.

I&#039;ll also take the &quot;heat&quot; for not using your &quot;online calculators&quot;.

As well, I expect you to explain how you get &gt; 500 W from a block at 50 C end temp with a defined heat flux of 2.5 w/m2 and a power of 2 W.

Using your online calculator, the black body cavity absorber that absorbs 2.5 w/m2 that you define, has a temp of 322.69 K or 49.54 C.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html

The max power possible before numerical breakdown is 445.2 W at a temp of 4.65 K. Not the 500+ W you claim.

You did not explain how 500+ W is delivered from a 2 W system that you defined.  Other than some mind boggling BS.

Frying pans don&#039;t prove your point.  Neither do your sophistic claims.

Maybe Nobody was as smart as you in the last 100 yrs or so. 

You are selling snake oil.  Good luck with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay. I&#8217;ll take the &#8220;heat&#8221; for screwing up the algebra.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll also take the &#8220;heat&#8221; for not using your &#8220;online calculators&#8221;.</p>
<p>As well, I expect you to explain how you get &gt; 500 W from a block at 50 C end temp with a defined heat flux of 2.5 w/m2 and a power of 2 W.</p>
<p>Using your online calculator, the black body cavity absorber that absorbs 2.5 w/m2 that you define, has a temp of 322.69 K or 49.54 C.</p>
<p><a href="http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html" rel="nofollow">http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html</a></p>
<p>The max power possible before numerical breakdown is 445.2 W at a temp of 4.65 K. Not the 500+ W you claim.</p>
<p>You did not explain how 500+ W is delivered from a 2 W system that you defined.  Other than some mind boggling BS.</p>
<p>Frying pans don&#8217;t prove your point.  Neither do your sophistic claims.</p>
<p>Maybe Nobody was as smart as you in the last 100 yrs or so. </p>
<p>You are selling snake oil.  Good luck with that.</p>
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		<title>By: el gordo</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2282007</link>
		<dc:creator>el gordo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2282007</guid>
		<description>Does the jet stream operate in the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere? 

As the thermosphere and mesosphere cool and lose density, does the troposphere expand and cause the stratosphere to warm?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the jet stream operate in the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere? </p>
<p>As the thermosphere and mesosphere cool and lose density, does the troposphere expand and cause the stratosphere to warm?</p>
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		<title>By: David Wojick</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2281986</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wojick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2281986</guid>
		<description>I always took that statement to refer to decoupling economic growth from fossil fuel use, not capitalism. Capitalism is well over 150 years old. I think she is referring to the fossil fuel fueled industrial revolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always took that statement to refer to decoupling economic growth from fossil fuel use, not capitalism. Capitalism is well over 150 years old. I think she is referring to the fossil fuel fueled industrial revolution.</p>
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		<title>By: Rocket Rod</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2281983</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2281983</guid>
		<description>Breaking news :
Wonder what China wanted with that 50 tons of vitamin c they had shipped to Wuhan?
Now treating Coronavirus patients and previously severe cases recovered and being discharged from hospitals. High dose antioxidant/anti-inflammatory eh...who&#039;d have thought...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Breaking news :<br />
Wonder what China wanted with that 50 tons of vitamin c they had shipped to Wuhan?<br />
Now treating Coronavirus patients and previously severe cases recovered and being discharged from hospitals. High dose antioxidant/anti-inflammatory eh&#8230;who&#8217;d have thought&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Knights</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/tuesday-open-thread-6/#comment-2281975</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Knights</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=69563#comment-2281975</guid>
		<description>Why not just enable and encourage logging? Win-win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not just enable and encourage logging? Win-win.</p>
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