JoNova

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A woodchip mill is better for the environment than greens are

Instead of vaporising a million trees we could have made money, saved lives, homes, property and millions of animals.

Local environmental groups rejoiced that the Eden Woodchip Mill burnt down, then deleted the comment. But ponder, after a man-made inferno, how much better off would the nation have been if we’d chopped down that forest and sold it instead.

“YESSS!!! Some really good news! The Eden Chip Mill is burning down. ” -- Environment East Gippsland EEG

Eden Woodchip Mill

Joy of joys. Even the woodchip pile is on fire?    Credit to Jill Redwood from Goongerah who made the first post about the Eden Chip mill burning

Ask a koala: Is it better to chop half the trees down, or incinerate the whole forest?

A lack of hazard reduction hurts in so many ways.

 

 

 

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Rating: 9.5/10 (94 votes cast)
A woodchip mill is better for the environment than greens are, 9.5 out of 10 based on 94 ratings

134 comments to A woodchip mill is better for the environment than greens are

  • #
    Peter C

    A woodchip mill is better for the environment than greens are
    Instead of vaporising a million trees we could have made money, saved lives, homes, property and millions of animals.

    We are now in the middle of a genuine human crisis. Environmentalists have a lot to answer for! They got everything wrong, The media and our political parties listened to them and now we are paying the price.

    One thing that used to happen in our National forest areas was timber logging. Logging created cleared coups, which were then burned before replanting. It was called Forestry (the sustainable use of Natural forest areas). A consequence was fire breaks.

    The GREENS put a stop to that. We have had no logging in Crown land in Victoria for a decade. Now the SE of the State is in flames.
    Lets not let this crisis pass without consequences. The GREENS are to Blame.

    612

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Thank you Peter.

      We needed that to be said.

      We are in the beginning of an extraordinary human crisis.

      Many might think it’s over when the fire passes but the harsh reality will be the next few years.

      People, communities, farms, schools, businesses and government will all be tried over the next few years of rebuilding and assessment of what went wrong.

      Sadly, most of this could have been avoided with sensible leaders reading the story from the past.

      We Must hope that in future our politicians pay heed to real experts in land management for fire minimization, production of cheap electricity and the storage of water in new dams all owned by the government: Not by foreign investors.

      Profiteering politicians must be made accountable.

      Who signed the cheque for MalEx444′s 7 tonnes of Gold bullion for the Great Big Barrier Reef Foundation?

      KK

      260

      • #
        Sambar

        K.K. on tonights news ( channel 9 ) there were warnings issued for later this week. Sadly one of the towns listed as most at risk was MARYSVILLE. Yes the same town that was decimated in 2009 is back in the firing line. I posted about a visit to this town a week or so ago and commented that it was once again a disaster waiting to happen. We continue to learn nothing. Will I donate to relief funds sadly NO. Will I help individuals impacted in my district or the King valley where I have relatives, absolutely.
        This will be limited to help with stock or fencing etc. The genuine hands on stuff that people appreciate. I never saw a balance sheet for where all the donated funds went after 2009. I seem to recall, and I may well be wrong, that some of the donated funds were reserved for future disasters.

        180

        • #
          Geoff Sherrington

          Sambar,
          Quadrant Online right now has a relevant essay about my late friend Ray Evans who lost a home at Marysville in 2009. It is interesting, recommended reading. Geoff S
          https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2020/01/analysis-and-prophecy-as-autopsy/

          80

          • #
            Sambar

            Thanks for the link G.S. The very last item the photos of Stevensons Falls are most telling. The falls are again picturesque, albeit with many dead trees in the new regrowth. The bush is very different with lots of “fire weeds” currently dominating, these will of course diminish over time if no further high temperature fires occur. Its still pretty but its very different.

            50

      • #
        hatband

        Australia left the Gold Standard in 1932, Keith.

        There Reserve Bank hasn’t kept any Gold for 88 years.

        06

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          I know, Scomo had to get it sent from mainland Chyna.

          21

        • #
          beowulf

          Not so. The RBA sold off about 2/3 of our gold reserve in 1997 — 167 tonnes. We still hold about 70 to 80 tonnes. It has nothing to do with the gold standard. It’s our foreign exchange reserve. We make 20% pa in loans on the gold we still hold.

          81

          • #
            hatband

            So you’re supporting Keith’s assertion that Scotty signed away 7 tons of Gold Bullion as Turnbull’s Treasurer?

            06

          • #
            hatband

            So you’re supporting Keith’s assertion that Scotty signed away 7 tons of Gold Bullion as Turnbull’s Treasurer?

            05

          • #
            Dennis

            Treasurer Costello pointed out that the sale of Gold Bullion realised a significant profit for the Commonwealth of Australia and he also pointed out that Australia’s has still large known reserves of Gold yet to be mined which is the property of the Commonwealth of Australia.

            20

      • #
        Postcript

        More fuel-reduction burning is, like forestry, not the answer according to the general tone of the media coverage. This should not surprise. Anything remotely unbiased about forestry and its critical role in natural resource management is almost non-existent in the modern mainstream media.

        Much of the media, like much of academia, is now Greenieland incarnate. Many journalists have far, far less than little experience of life in the bush and insuffucient imagination or empathy to see that chasm, let alone bridge it. Journalism degrees, like environmental degrees, are a dime a dozen these days. Many such latter courses only appear to qualify one for life in a koala suit, accosting pedestrians in a city mall for donations to save a species that was only ever locally endangered before green groups started running crown lands management policy by dint of media publicity. These are the sorts of sources that journalists go to, unquestioningly. Is it any wonder that the media cannot manage much, if any, content on environmental issues beyond propaganda?

        Forestry has caused no particular problem with extinctions. The mere mention of it, though,seems to eradicate common sense in some circles, much as carbon dioxide does.

        10

    • #
      hatband

      Forget the mock outrage over what some clown said.

      That’s the Bolshevik’s game, and they do it better anyway.

      Scotty has got to find the guts to say the ”A” word and then keep on saying it.

      What’s he got to lose?

      Make Albanese defend Arsonists.

      He won’t like that, but he won’t have a choice.

      64

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Jo, good that you have preserved the EEG’s dopey warblings
      For future reference
      They willl of course attempt to deny it.
      But you have nailed them !
      Good

      80

    • #
      Bill In Oz

      Jo, It was actually Jill redwood from Goongerah wh made the first post about the Eden Chip mill burning
      Look here : https://www.facebook.com/malcolmrobertsonenation/photos/a.917480761729138/1889988647811673/?type=3&theater

      20

    • #
      Speedy

      Hi Peter

      Personally, I think that the heart of the problem is that many people are lazy. And that it is easier to feel than it is to think. Such laziness is the breeding ground of our so-called environmentalists.

      Cheers,

      Mike

      80

    • #
      warcroft

      “The ‘new religion’ of the climate cult will produce outcomes that will hit people over the head with reality. Sooner or later the climate cult is going to produce policy outcomes which will cause people to wake up to themselves. Sooner or later, in the end, people will get hit over the head with reality.”
      - Tony Abbott

      110

    • #
      Bob Fernley-Jones

      One thing that puzzles me is that it appears to be a spot fire. How and why did it start?

      20

  • #
    Ian1946

    The leftist ALP/Greens rabble and their inner city supporters do not live in the real world. In their green bubble any economic activity is taboo and must be shut down.

    ScoMo needs to call them out and ridecule their logic. Until that happens we are on a downhill slope. Defund the ABC now.

    241

    • #
      PeterS

      One problem with that. Morrison also believes we should continue to cut our emissions and deploy more renewables. LNP or ALP+Greens, it makes little difference, the CAGW agenda is being supported by both major parties. Vote for neither. The more that do the more chance we will have another party, such as ON who will call them out on our behalf. Otherwise, just forget it and watch Australia continue to focus on reducing our emissions as if the the whole world is totally dependent on us to do so.

      110

    • #
      Roger Knights

      “In their green bubble any economic activity is taboo and must be shut down.”

      Then how about letting goats do some non-profit or low-profit brush-trimming? They are used elsewhere in the world for the job. They’re “natural”. They meet the greens’ acid test: Four legs good, two legs bad.

      10

  • #
    robert rosicka

    ABC still interviewing experts that say fuel reduction is harming the forest Eco system , taking a few trees and clearing the forest floor would have made all the difference to this fire , from being catastrophic to being controllable.

    210

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      “ABC still interviewing experts that say fuel reduction is harming the forest Eco system”.

      And the rest of us might ask; Compared to What.

      A small localised hazard reduction burn every five years Will give off smoke for a week at most, allow wildlife to move temporarily and in the long run save much wildlife from death and save people and property.

      Not having preemptive burns means total destruction of both wildlife and habitat and human tragedy every decade or so.

      Having gutless governments is not in our best interests and we the voters, need to think very hard at the next elections.

      KK

      200

      • #
        Environment Skeptic

        Scientist David Packham on what’s really causing the bushfires
        https://volunteerfirefighters.org.au/scientist-david-packham-on-whats-really-causing-the-bushfires

        50

        • #
          PeterS

          It’s only pat of the answer and also not that simple. Here is a more accurate explanation:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLzXKxjFfao

          11

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            I will not comment on politics and furthermore, whilst the video is interesting, it too does not address practical bush management here and now.

            10

            • #
              PeterS

              We can’t conduct an effective fuel reduction program across over 100 million hectares. All we can do is a very limited one in areas close to medium to large population areas and let the rest burn where it occurs. Understanding the real causes of longer periods of high temperatures and dry conditions helps to plan things better, such as building more dams, whether we like it or not.

              50

        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          David talks about fuel hazard reduction in a normal forest.

          Plantation forest industry don’t need to do much burning through the use of herbicide to kill anything that grows on the forest floor. After the plantation is harvested, all the detritus in its entirety is bulldozed into big mounds and burnt throughout the winter around here in the Latrobe valley area. The air is thick with smoke during these monitored controlled burn bon fires continuously each year by the plantation forest industry.

          It needs to be remembered that some of the greatest resistance to fuel reduction burning is from plantations adjacent to what remains of our australian forests. There are corporate logging interests that do not want to see their own highly inflammable juvenile plantations being set on fire because of the hypothetical need for a fuel reduction burn in adjacent native forests.

          37

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            Does anyone have any data on the percentage of plantation forests that were affected by the fires?

            02

            • #
              Environment Skeptic

              Bingo!!

              Perhaps plantation forests should be subject to increasing the size/width of their firebreaks adjacent to native forests. In this scenario, firefighters can at least have a grid system of **satisfactory firebreaks** to work without the need to risk being burnt from both sides.

              There is no focus on fuel reduction in this scenario because there is nothing growing burnable in these cleared firebreaks. Maybe brocolli could be allowed to grow on firebreaks to give the forestry industry an income from these untimbered fire breaks..

              03

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                There is no reason why bigger firebreaks around Plantation forests could not be used to grow Brocolli.

                04

              • #
                sophocles

                Dead, dry broccoli burns quite well. It’s a bit smoky but the flame stays well below knee height. It can be above the ankles. Burning broccoli also doesn’t fling burning embers around. Food for thought?

                00

              • #
                Graeme No.3

                What happens when someone genetically engineers a broccoli that grows 10 metres high?

                10

              • #
                sophocles

                That’s your problem — I refuse to think about that

                00

      • #
        Geoff Sherrington

        KK,
        Greens are vocal just now about how hard controlled burns have become, then insinuating that even if free licence to burn was given, not enough could be done because the window of burn time each year had narrowed. Senator di Natale said this about narrow windows on ABC just 2 days ago.
        This is what is missed: A decade of controlled burns might be needed to get control of forest flammability again. You cannot do a patchwork of tiny, cool burns in a year. It takes a decade or so. But, you have to make a start.
        Marysville is in the firing line again after a big fire in 2009. In 2010, the management of controlled burns there would be rather different to a Marysville that had had the mosiac of small burns done since then. And, the opportunity window each year would have been longer. Geoff S

        140

        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          Geoff, As i say above, it is not just green bogeymen that do not want the controlled burns, the most serious resistance to controlled burns are corporate owned plantation monocultures of ultra, super highly inflammable juvenile trees in the millions of hectares!! It is too expensive to pay real firemen and women to prevent a fire getting into the monocultures of pines and gums that are adjacent to state forests and so forth.

          Nothing to do with the greens
          . Both sides if not all sides comply with the needs of the corporate timber interest, and losing their juvenile plantations to controlled fuel reduction burning is not an economic option. First and foremost, politics is governed by corporate and creditor stakeholders in all our environmental bread and circuses. If it is too expensive it will not get done and the only thing we can look forward to is perhaps some squirming from politicians.

          46

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            Of course, it follows Corporate owned plantations have decent fire insurance and herbicide is cheap.

            25

            • #
              RobK

              Insurance on plantations is very expensive. Most are not insured. Plantations have fire breaks and access tracks to cells of plantings of a few tens of hectares each. Often plantations are cool burnt to remove debris. Very little if any herbicide is required other than maintenance of fire breaks and only in some cases, a pre planting spray. Planting is generally done into scalped and ripped lines. Any plantation owner adjoining an unmanaged forest would have to seriously derate the yield potential due to fire from such an unmanageable risk. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

              60

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                RobK……………..In my idea with 20/20 vision, i suggest wider firebreaks giving firefighters something wide enough to work with could also serve as an agricultural firebreak grid system that could be used to grow brocolli. Brocolli is an excellent fire retardant crop which could help the Plantation forestry giants lower their insurance premiums.

                03

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                Better firebreaks, better/lower insurance premiums.

                01

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                And Brocolli. Plantation forest industry would have a second income. using their Burn-Proof new and improved extra wide firebreaks.

                Actually, i don’t really care if they grow brocolli or not, the firebreaks are too narrow and firefighters rely on decent firebreaks.

                01

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                Any plantation owner adjoining an unmanaged forest would have to seriously derate the yield potential due to fire from such an unmanageable risk.

                A plantation forest takes many years to reach a non-wild-fire hazard status, when the crown is high enough above the ground, and especially if adjacent to national park or any other bush with a high fuel load. The width of firebreaks must be increased period. So that firefighters can do their job efficiently when required.

                You use the word “adjoining” I say “adjacent” indicating the unmanaged bush and the plantation do not join each other, and further i say the width of firebreaks need to be increased at cost to whom?….that is another subject.

                It’s all about ‘containment’ as well as fuel loads.

                01

              • #
                Annie

                There was a pine plantation in the Marysville area that was pretty well wiped out in the 2009 firestorm. The trees all snapped off halfway up their trunks; our daughter took photos and a video or two which I have seen. I don’t think a few rows of broccoli would have saved them even if they would produce a saleable crop at non- bushfire times.

                20

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                Firebreaks need to be wide enough so that a fireman/woman can walk along the fire-break without getting toasted if both sides are on fire.

                The reason fire=breaks are narrow is to increase the space available for trees…

                If it were up to the timber industry, there would be no firebreaks at all, so we have firebreaks that are barely wide enough for a truck in most cases.

                I am calling for wider firebreaks, and to offset the loss of income, timber companies could grow brocolli along the firebreaks so they can get a second income.

                It doesn’t need to be brocolli only though…any crop that is not inflamable and is easy to drive a fire truck over.

                10

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                Pathetically narrow fire break specifications……a firebreak adjacent to a plantation should be at least 40 meters wide….IMO

                From: https://armadalerealestate.com.au/wp-content/uploads/sites/105/2014/12/FESA-Firebreak-Guidelines_std.pdf

                “There appears to be a need for two different types of forest firebreaks. Plantations (pine and bluegum) 5 are high value timber crops that can be adversely affected by bush fi re. It is therefore considered important that boundary firebreaks be constructed quite wide (around 15 metres), and the breaks have a minimum trafficable width of 5 metres and also a vertical clearance of 5 metres between the trees. The compartment breaks need to be based on the size of the compartment: compartments up to 30 ha have a recommended width of firebreak of 6 metres; and for those of over 30 ha, a minimum width of 10 metres applies. The 5 metre trafficable surface should be retained for all firebreaks—these minor breaks require a minimum height clearance of four metres to facilitate unrestricted access and maintain an effective width of firebreak”

                10

    • #
      Sambar

      Flamin ecosystems, everyone has an opinion but many forget one simple thing. EVERYTHING THAT LIVES, DIES. One way or another this is the way of nature. If your a worm your eaten by a bird, if your a bird your eaten by a bigger bird. No animal left to its own devices has an idilic life. Every day is an absolute struggle to stay alive long enough to procreate. And death never comes easy in the natural world, whether its by fire or flood or capure by a slightly higher up the food chain predator. Death is a most nessesary part of life for all lthings. Perpetual preservation adds nothing to diversity or resiliance for anything.

      100

      • #
        Environment Skeptic

        And don’t forget about the struggles of the military industrial complex, it too will whimper and die,and even, even the profoundly intricate ecosystem of corporate herbicide conglomerates that struggle to satay alive each day will die in your scenario.

        07

      • #
        Environment Skeptic

        Who knows, perhaps a flea might swallow an elephant..

        06

  • #
    a happy little debunker

    Don’t be so alarmist with all this fuel load reduction malarkey

    Dan Andrews has said you are all being hysterical

    Meanwhile Piers Morgan calls Craig a ‘climate denier’ for correctly identifying the impacts of climate change on the current bushfires.

    Thank goodness we aren’t all blaming Scotty Morrison for his climate inaction

    110

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      happy little debunker:

      The Greens blame coal fired power stations for global warming/climate change/climate disruption/climate extinction/climate etc. so they must be happy that South Australia has shut all its coal fired power stations years ago, and thus must be free from bushfires.

      50

  • #
    mmxx

    It is now beyond time to repeal all Greens-based legislation that has stopped Australian primary producers/non-indigenous land owners from vegetation clearing the otherwise massive regrowth of tree/shrub succours that has swamped productive agricultural lands.

    Those regressive laws coupled with green lovers’ establishment of numerous new national parks from which any vegetation management practices were excluded resulted in a fuel build-up to an unprecedented fire risk level.

    Unsurprisingly, the traditional Australian semi-dry environment has been set alight with such disastrous consequences.

    Tellingly, Greens are callously unrepentant and hence show their agenda is political socialism not environmental.

    230

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Greens are bragging they own over 100 councils a figure I dispute as being too low but I wonder what councils along the coast have been infiltrated with the green ideology.

    140

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      Lake Macquarie, for a start.

      Newcastle is totally unprepared for fire in the city because of green frustration of undergrowth removal and dangerous overhanging trees everywhere.

      KK

      110

      • #
        PeterS

        It’s all over Sydney too. It’s almost impossible to remove a tree in the suburbs. Meanwhile they grow bigger and bigger dropping more branches over power lines leading to local blackouts. Denser too so increasing the risk of a major fire spreading to surrounding houses. If left to continue we will see so many trees growing all over Sydney it will be difficult to see the houses from above.

        100

    • #
      beowulf

      It’s not only the number that counts, but the strategic locations of those councils in fire prone/populated districts. This is where the lie that the Greens “have never been in government” is shown for what it is.

      120

    • #
      hatband

      Where does the funding come from for the Greens to buy 100 Councils in New South Wales?

      Shouldn’t the Electoral Commission be investigating this scandal?

      05

    • #

      This woman needs to be heard…
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqMe1DH3qrU

      You think these deep green councils just happen, weird regulations and measures just pop up…

      Nope. All calculated, organised, funded. Massive plan with massive resources, and they even tell you in official UN documents what they are doing.

      They are working their way upward as well as sideways and down. We need to notice, observe and discuss with one another. We need to turn off the refuse media – their refuse media – so we can think and talk rationally. The media must be OFF.

      Stop globalism. Do tradition, family, privacy, property. And do coal.

      120

    • #
      jack

      Robert

      Greens are bragging they own over 100 councils

      What is the source?

      20

  • #
    Sambar

    And of course Premier Andrews also banned the logging of native forest in Victoria. On the premis that this would “save” the environment. Without doubt what grows back after this latest round of fires will be significantly different than what was there “to be preserved”.The forest may revert to what it was but this will probably be a 60 to 100 year cycle. Assuming of course no more fires in the interim. The best part of course, is a new generation of greenies will believe that this is the way it has always been and demand that this new ecosystem must be preserved for all time.

    110

    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      Perfectly adapted to survive harsh political environments …Xanthorrhoea Minor.

      Also known as the underground grass tree. The living growth-point is buried underground.

      http://www.elster-creek.org.au/xanthorrhoea_minor_Small_%20Grass_tree.htm

      01

    • #
      Environment Skeptic


      Burn-Proof!!
      Maybe we could adopt Xanthorrhoea Minor and its ability to survive billions of years of Australian bush-fires as our new Australian flag??.

      To symbolise our………….or maybe a new political party could adopt Xanthorrhoea as their emblem.

      Maybe Xanthorrhoea Australis.
      Xanthorrhoea australis
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthorrhoea_australis

      11

      • #
        sophocles

        billions of years of Australian bush-fires

        Billions of years? Forget it!

        Australia was heading for where Antarctica now is less then 100 MY ago as Gondwana Land came apart.
        Since it separated from Antarctica circa 50MYA (that’s a pretty big `circa’), it’s been galloping north at a bit over 60mm per year (with a slight clockwise twist :-D ).

        There’s still about 60 – 70 MY to go before Brisbane reaches the equator but that twist may see Perth get there first :-D .

        Anything can happen in that time. So, you won’t have to wait much longer before your northern rain forests may be too wet to burn so easily — a bit like the Borneo ones — with But the southern coasts? Mmmm. Nope. The desert will just move south under its Hadley cell. (All motion is relative …) and Xanthorrhoea Australis will be everywhere.

        20

        • #
          Graeme No.3

          About 30% of native forest in Borneo has been destroyed – usually by deliberately lit fires – to allow oil palm plantations. (I guess they would burn too).

          10

  • #
    George4

    A good way to preserve forests long term is to harvest from them on a sustainable basis, like in Scandinavia.
    The Eden mill employs hundreds in a small town, good luck with replacing them with “green” jobs, unless you mean more staff at the local CES.

    120

    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      Sure, if you only want one species in the forest.
      In return, forest containing actual species, other than trees, require real work, but it is achievable. A weed army would create a lot of jobs or just had it over to drones to go in and target weeds with Ai plant recognition. We already have weed recognition Ai cameras and software on a massive scale in agriculture. I know a farmer in Birchip Victoria, and was on board a massive combine wheat planter and under the gigantic booms there were cameras to target and recognise weeds with a precision pulse of spray herbicide. The farmer in Birchip said to me during the course of our conversation that the Ai system of herbicide application had saved him a lot of money and now he only uses 3-5% of the herbicide he once used. Amazing.

      23

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Hmmmm….

    https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-07/jonathan-sri-investigated-extinction-rebellion-meetings/11849690

    “Brisbane’s only Greens councillor is being investigated by the councillor conduct review panel (CCRP) over his alleged involvement in the facilitation of Extinction Rebellion climate change protests.

    “Key points:

    “Jonathan Sri said the idea that the council CEO could determine who could use his meeting room was “ridiculous”

    “He said if given the chance again he would allow climate change activists to meet in his meeting room

    “If Cr Sri is found to have engaged in misconduct he may be ordered to apologise, suspended, referred to the CCC, or fined up to $6,500

    “A misconduct complaint against councillor Jonathan Sri, who lives in inner-city Brisbane, alleges he allowed members of Extinction Rebellion, a climate protest group, to use his meeting room, according to a letter obtained by the ABC.

    “It also alleges that discussions pertaining to rebellion against law enforcement and conduct of unlawful protesting were had in the meetings.

    “Cr Sri said he did not think the council’s process was a legitimate or objective way to deal with these complaints.

    “”The idea that the LNP-appointed CEO can determine who should or shouldn’t be able to use the community meeting room at the Gabba Ward office is just ridiculous and needs to be understood as a direct attack on political freedom,” he said.

    “Brisbane City Council passed a motion in October prohibiting Extinction Rebellion from booking any council meeting facilities including in council libraries.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      “and needs to be understood as a direct attack on political freedom”

      And with that comment, Sri confirms that the “Stinkies” are purely a political movement.

      Nothing to do with any real environmental cause.

      Just another potty little far-left group of fascists.

      10

      • #
        MudCrab

        …little far-left group of fascists.

        Bit sad you were forced to use a tautology there.

        Fascism is a product of the Left. It is about controlling the state by, well, controlling the state. For the ‘greater good’, all serious decisions are made from the top. ALL. The variation to socialism is that socialism at least pretends that ‘the worker’ now has control of the state via committee, but in practice they are the same thing: Someone who is not you controls things.

        Where angry little uni students get upset is they don’t understand the difference between nationalism and nationalising. One is a ‘love’ of the existing way their parent country is run, loves the existing culture, loves being part of all that and wants to maintain that. This is the ‘if you don’t love it, leave’ mindset.

        The other is nationalising. This is where it is considered that private industry cannot be trusted to do ‘the right thing’ and that the government should take it over and ‘run it properly’. Only be a top down decision process (and lots of rules) can things be fair.

        Fascism is a product of the ‘control’ mindset, which comes from the Left. Anyone who claims otherwise is probably a Leftie angry that their own bid to control the state hasn’t been successful. After all, remember that the only people the Left hate more than Capitalist and Conservatives is OTHER LEFTIES.

        Sigh. If only they would learn to get along, like conservatives do, the world would be so much more peaceful.

        10

  • #
    Lionell Griffith

    The greens have almost succeeded in implementing my solution: stop feeding them. Though not quite in the way I wanted. They have almost made it impossible for the productive to be productive and have almost eliminated the excess production from which they stole their sustenance. Both they AND the productive will soon no longer be able to live as civilized humans. They will have been forced back to a hand to mouth hunting and gathering existence with nothing to gather.

    Soon, not feeding them will no longer be an option.

    60

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Greens, woodchip mills, solar panels and/or windmills and carbon (sic)?

    I’ll take the sun and sunspot activity for 100 thanks …
    https://electroverse.net/nasa-predicts-next-solar-cycle-will-be-lowest-in-200-years-dalton-minimum-levels-the-implications/

    7 Dec, 2019: Helicopter plucks trekkers suffering hypothermia from wilderness hut
    “Strong winds, thick snow and freezing temperatures had halted the efforts of the police, paramedics and SES to rescue the group, believed to be from India.”

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-07/three-bush-walkers-in-tasmania-suffering-hypothermia/1177670

    6 Jan, 2020: Parts of South Australia have just shivered through some of their coldest January days on record — with Adelaide missing out on beating its 1970 record by just 0.7C.

    https://electroverse.net/25-locations-across-australia-just-set-their-coldest-january-days-ever/

    >> Yet the fake news media remains quiet about what is an inconvenient extreme global warming event.

    Global warming means more snowstorms: scientists

    “In fact, as the Earth gets warmer and more moisture gets absorbed into the atmosphere, we are steadily loading the dice in favor of more extreme storms in all seasons, capable of causing greater impacts on society.”

    https://phys.org/news/2011-03-global-snowstorms-scientists.html

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      sophocles

      Yet the fake news media remains quiet about what is an inconvenient extreme global warming event.

      That’s because Mickey Mann has said “cooling is what you get with global warming” so it must be alright.

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    Travis T. Jones

    and then there’s this …

    How does the Australian landscape recover after a bushfire?

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/fire-rejuvenation-for-queensland-bushland-after-bushfire/10584714

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    willam x

    Brilliant. A local environment group exalted that an “environmental destroying” wood chip plant was burnt down.

    They don’t care that there are now many employees with no income.

    They don’t care that If those employees have families, that their children will suffer as a result.

    They don’t care that those employees spend their money in their local community. So those local businesses will also suffer.

    They don’t care that the trees chipped are not from old growth forest.

    They don’t care or know that trees are a renewable resource.

    And they certainly can’t be bothered turning their heads 45 degrees to watch their beautiful, pristine, unmanaged bushland and fauna, being totally annihilated and destroyed by their group’s activism.

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    george1st:)

    The greens are a formidable force sprouting from Tassie , now in Vic , heading to NSW .
    They cannot be uneducated as they were never properly educated .
    The only defence against their tantrums is to get the msm on board with realism rather than idealism .
    How do you do that ? or are there better and simpler ways ?
    Whatever , something basic has to happen or we will be in the caves again before people realise it .

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    Disgusting name calling in British TV interview, makes me ashamed of our media when they behave like a pack of animals.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/01/06/british-tv-personalities-savage-aussie-politician-over-climate-action-bushfires/

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      WXcycles

      Just another couple of stupid script readers.

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      sophocles

      Do you mean to say that they’re not?
      Seven decades of tabloids suggests otherwise …

      It’s good of you to express your disgust. It’s always nice to meet good people, therefore welcome here, Adrian.

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    Deplorable Lord Kek

    i think i will vote green next time.

    the only way the Australian population will learn is if they suffer 5-10 years of true hardship.

    ban coal mines

    ban aeroplanes

    ban meat

    ban fires

    ban anything that is created with co2.

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      RobK

      Your intentions might be noble but the result will see our economy and way of life go the same way as the unmanaged forest. There will only be ash and ruin.

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      sophocles

      ban anything that is created with co2.

      does that include CO2 fire extinguishers?

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  • #

    After decades of neglect any return to a sane fire regime will be hazardous and will require care. Don’t put the same educated nongs in charge of burning who were in charge of not burning.

    Don’t have programs, quotas, statistics and all the stuff loved by educated nongs. Just encourage and get out of the way. Let people choose their times and ways. The placard holders and other narcissists can keep their own land any way they want it and cop the liability, but everybody else needs to get busy this coming winter. Local people on the ground will know best when conditions are right.

    And it doesn’t all need to happen in a single year. A few compartments along a fire trail can be a great start. Trail maintenance won’t be done if forestry are starved for funds, so allow more forestry. And why not a system of fenced dams exclusively for fire emergencies? Why not put the dams along major roads as part of a system of using those roads as major fire breaks?

    I’m not saying all my ideas are good, but they represent the types of ideas we should be entertaining.

    Let’s rock and roll this winter…but gently.

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      Yes moso, agree, but we need to break the Local Councils’ green – agenda control re permits for landholders to manage their own lands appropriately and have imput re the management of OUR State Forests.

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        Ross

        Name the rural councils with a green agenda. One will do Beth.
        Manage our own lands ‘appropriately’. Let every land owner set fire to the bush in any way they choose?
        Burn baby, burn.

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    pat

    what worse can the CAGW zealots say?

    smug-faced Delaney (see pic) has also worked for ABC – plenty of article on ABC website:

    7 Jan: Guardian: This apocalyptic Australian summer is our Sandy Hook moment – if we don’t take climate action now we never will
    by Brigid Delaney
    (Brigid Delaney is a senior writer for Guardian Australia. She has previously worked as a lawyer and journalist at the Sydney Morning Herald, the Telegraph London, ninemsn and CNN. She is the author of two books: This Restless Life and Wild Things)
    These bushfires are without precedent. After rock bottom, there is a choice: stasis and misery or growth and transformation.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/07/this-apocalyptic-australian-summer-is-our-sandy-hook-moment-if-we-dont-take-climate-action-now-we-never-will

    6 Jan: UK Mirror: Climate change is going to kill off Donald Trump – and all the other Right-wing demagogues poisoning the planet
    From Australian wildfires to war with Iran, the populists are doing more than anyone else to destroy the planet. But nationalism can’t survive a problem that demands international solutions
    By Fleet Street Fox, Columnist
    Australian government ministers have called climate protesters “lunatics”, the Prime Minister Scott Morrison says talk of climate affecting the record-breaking heatwave is political point-scoring, and millions of lives, homes and livelihoods are threatened by unprecedented bushfires raging across the nation…
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/climate-change-going-kill-donald-21224856

    ***Michael Mann – expert on Australia’s bushfires:

    AUDIO: 20m13s: 6 Jan: BBC Podcast: Beyond Today: Australian fires: who is to blame?
    Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison has warned that the devastating bushfires raging in the country might go on for months. At least 26 people have died since the fires began in September. Air quality in the capital Canberra was, this weekend, rated the worst in the world. In this episode Beyond Today producer Heidi Pett tells us the personal cost of the fires in Merimbula, a coastal town in New South Wales.

    ***We also speak to climate scientist Michael Mann who explains how a specific climate phenomenon has exacerbated the fires and why America’s leaders have a role to play in Australia’s current plight.
    Presenter: Matthew Price.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07zns45

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    Bill In Oz

    The IOD is changing
    The big wet is starting at last up North
    And Weatherzone is forecasting
    That rain will come South as well this week
    https://www.weatherzone.com.au/synoptic/

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      Deplorable Lord Kek

      b…but BOM said no rain for the foreseeable future.

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        sophocles

        when you’re always looking backwards like the BoM, the future is the past.
        Of course, they’re right.
        Until it rains.

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      Environment Skeptic

      Call me superstitious.
      Every time there’s an earth directed solar storm, there’s lots of precipitation a few days later.
      An Earth-Directed Solar Storm & A Holy Grail | Space Weather News 01.06.2020
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKqDr7GKcxQ

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        sophocles

        The sunspots the umm presenter is getting so wound about are feeble. When the sun presents us with beta-gamma-delta spots and we start seeing some flaring, life will get interesting.

        I was amused so much was being made about the “switchbacks” in the Solar Wind. Yep, the solar wind has “lumps in it.” She was really having to work.

        I prefer Ben Davidson’s take on everything solar and some astronomy, and “Dr Becky’s” take on everything else astronomical. :-D

        Serious stuff instead of pure info-tainment and I’m not left `gasping for breath’ over the mundane.

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      WXcycles

      There’s not much in it Bill, unless you’re in WA, Top-end, or coastal North QLD.

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    robert rosicka

    The latest conspiracy theory about the fires are that the Govt has a fleet of Lear jets and had them retrofitted with lasers then flew them in grid patterns over the areas that caught fire .
    Almost sounds like something Fitz would come up with and believe in , it’s incredible the junk on social media about the fires .

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    Richard Ilfeld

    In the US, with 50 (comparatively speaking) independent states, we are busily sorting ourselves out geographically.
    The California fires, like yours, are a human tragedy. The concerns of the greens acknowledge that the forest may eventually
    recover, and wish it to do so without humans. In many areas, issues with insurance, services, power availability, and government regulation are
    in fact driving former residents away, contributing to the net loss of population California is suffering.

    We worry, or wonder, when a forest is or becomes a monoculture. We should also worry about political monocultures.

    It seems to an outside observer that Australia has already lost certain essentials. There is, so far as I know, no domestic Australian car company,
    and a small amount of basic metals left. This may be fine for a Hong Kong, or Singapore, but it seems strange for a continental landmass
    with a capable, educated, and entrepreneurial population.

    When everything comes by boat, prices go up (Hawaii, for example). Where has the domestic advantage gone?

    In this information age there are a few small islands of prosperity without resources other than human capital, but for most of us within the confines
    of a nation-state, its good to be part of a society that can grow a enough food to support itself and perhaps trade a surplus, extract enough
    recourse tom through processing or trade with other countries for other, useful resources, and make the necessities of life.

    For centuries man has prospered building the engines for human good we call “economies”.

    Ideological destruction of an economy is not unknown, but has seldom been cheered.

    Fundamental accountability suggests that we demand those who wish us to sacrifice lead by example. Segregating a population by political philosophy into independent
    economic groups is one way to do this; The economic circumstances of the US ‘red’ and ‘blue’ are diverging https://www.statedatalab.org/state_data_and_comparisons/.

    It is hard top see how a combination of politics and natural disasters won’t be economically difficult for Australia.

    I have written my congressperson asking that all available aid from the US, including especially firefighting assets, be expidited. I have also
    asked that, instead of nationbuilding in various world hellholes, vigorous financial support to help Australia’s economy restore itself would
    be a welcome revival of a special relationship. Perhaps we could veer some of our attention from China to a trading partner with whom we share a common culture
    and language.

    I regret to think that what will actually happen is the the forces of green will raise billions with pictures of dead Koalas and Kangaroos, and squander the money
    in making matters worse.

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      WXcycles

      … and a small amount of basic metals left.

      There are enormous and diverse metal resources in Australia, no problem there. We have only a tiny civil domestic shipping fleet and very little domestic petroleum production, plus not much strategic on-shore storage, which is not a good combination. US produced oil supply would certainly help if that can be delivered at a useful price level.

      Ideological destruction of an economy is not unknown, but has seldom been cheered. Fundamental accountability suggests that we demand those who wish us to sacrifice lead by example. Segregating a population by political philosophy into independent economic groups is one way to do this …

      I’m all in favor of [snip -- make it voluntary! - jo] greenies to a small part of SW Tasmania for 25 years,[snip] with no electricity, except for the enormous fence. No outside support and services so they can commune with nature and enjoy ‘off-grid’ wilderness away from the terrible modern world. A few years sprinting away from fellow cannibals and dodging spears and man-traps should do them good.

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    John Lyon

    Slightly off topic. I have read that non native grasses are exacerbating the fires. Is ragwort one of the non native weeds amongst that grass(saw some ragwort in NZ). I control it every year on my farm,pile it up and burn it. It burns very vigorously,is it present?

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    • #
      sophocles

      Ragwort is a weed and classified as a `noxious weed’ in most of NZ. If you have it on your land, you have to get rid of it. It’s the bane of livestock farmers.

      Do a DDG (Duck Duck Go) search with ragwort in NZ . (There are a few rocky islands which don’t classify it that way.) You won’t have to read much before you figure out it’s really unwelcome over here!

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        John Lyon

        Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear. I’m a Scottish farmer who when on holiday in NZ saw ragwort and I just wondered if this injurious weed is also in Australia.

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    Mh

    The only way these problems can get solved is for decent people to start participating in either standing up for election in all levels of government or join and help funding organisations that push back against the Greens and other bad elements in society.

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    Dave

    They may well get their dark ages wish.
    And at some moment, they will realize, that the modern world wasn’t all that bad.
    Cars, plastics, trucks, heating, cooling, washing machines, farms with tractors.
    At some moment after a plague has annihilated all their family, as a global war ensues.

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    • #
      Dave

      Oh and they wont be able to post pictures rejoicing in their demise either.

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      sophocles

      They may well get their dark ages wish

      Indeed.
      We are heading into Interesting Times with a geomagnetic excursion bearing down on us.
      Time of arrival is unknown — it may be before or after 2100.

      This commentator shows the effects but I’m dubious about his timeline. In the absence of any better knowledge, I think he’s premature, too quick.

      Ben Davidson has his thoughts posted on magneticreversal.org”

      This page https://rapidcooling.net/science–data/archives/03-2019 shows solar forcing now and the future as predicted by CIMP5 (green) and CIMP6(grey). (Left Hand scale is solar forcing watts/sqm at Top of Atmosphere, I think). The CIMP6 data reminds me strongly of Dr Willi Dansgaard’s 1970 climate forecast:

      The climate will continue to grow colder during the 1970s and early
      1980s; then it will become gradually warmer again so that by 2015 we
      shall be back to where we were in 1960 — no better; and after that
      it will start becoming colder again. In short, the outlook for the
      next fifty years is decidedly chilly.

      The above forecast is far and away more accurate than any of the Climate Computer Models have proven over the last thirty years. That’s the problem with real science: it hangs together. It’s also the problem with pseudo science: that hangs together not at all.

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    John Raat

    Why dont you Aussies that are affected by the inferno take a class action against the greens and sue them blind.
    Just a thought

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    MudCrab

    Is the first reply posted in that screen capture something along the lines of ‘Chain yourself to a tree, Greenie!’?

    Seems to me that while Mister and Misses Public may be divided and/or apathetic on Climate Change(tm), they know what turns small annoying bushfires into uncontrolled destruction.

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    Bill Sokolich

    When it comes to land management, the coal at any cost / fossil supporters know very little …. Try reading up on ecology and general biology for a few years ….instead of spouting sanctimonious nonsense. This blame game and green bashing is infantile …. riding the bashing hobby horse. The funny thing is that a lot of green bashers are not even direct owners of, shall we say, non-sustainable industries that are ecologically destructive they just like being contrarian with a father knows best attitude. Some people who love to throw stones really need some psychological help.

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    Roger Knights

    Why not pelletize Eucalypus for the UK’s Drax power plant? Win-win!

    00