JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

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Weekend Unthreaded, 9.1 out of 10 based on 21 ratings

196 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    pat

    in the WUWT comments, i have posted excerpts from Graham Lloyd’s “Scientists’ petition on climate crisis blocked over fake signatories” article from The Australian, which is now behind paywall.
    below that, I’ve posted youtube of Ezra Levant/Rebel Media’s “11,000 ‘scientists’ warn about climate change? FAKE NEWS!”.

    15 Nov: WUWT: An Analysis Of The 11,000 ‘Micky Mouse’ Climate Scientists
    by charles the moderator
    Reposted from Synthesisr
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/11/15/an-analysis-of-the-11000-micky-mouse-climate-scientists/#comment-2847887

    60

  • #
    Bill in Oz

    Good grief
    t’is moi who must start off this Weekend Unthreaded ! !
    Well now.. Here’s news :
    So far 227 of the BOM’s 720 weather stations
    FAIL to meet the BOM’s own regulatory guidelines
    For the siting of such weather stations.
    Kens having a second go at stations here in South Australia
    Kuitpo, Mt lofty, Cape Borda, Cape Willoughby,
    Edithburgh, Kadina, Minlaton etc
    All bomb out when it comes to being accurate !
    https://kenskingdom.wordpress.com/

    110

    • #

      Bill in OZ:
      Analyzing the siting of surface weather stations is a good because it is interesting, attracts people to the subject of real climate science, and promotes skepticism about government climate junk science.

      Anthony Watt’s analysis of US surface stations picked me up after about 12 years of reading climate science as a hobby, wgich includes too much junk science”studies” and ridiculous wild guess predictions of the future climate.

      The big picture is that it really does not matter what the siting is — the raw data (and wild guess infilling) is going to be “adjusted” to whatever the bureaucrats want to show the public, and the “adjustments” are going to be obscured with homogenization.

      So the end “adjusted”, infilled, homogenized numbers, which are often arbitrarily changed years later, barely requires surface stations at all — they might as well save the taxpayers money, and pull the average national temperature number out of hat (rather than from two feet lower, as is done today)..

      If accurate measurements were important, only weather satellite data would be used — because only satellites have near global coverage, meaning only they can collect enough data to hope for an accurate global average.

      If the government bureaucrats wanted accurate surface data too, they would spend whatever money it took to build a well sited surface station network.

      But they don’t seem to care, even after disturbing photographs and siting analyses are made public.

      They don’t care because the average temperature of your nation is whatever the bureaucrats want it to be.

      This year Jo Nova has become the best climate science website in the world.
      For additional reading, try my climate science blog,
      with over 46.000 page views at:
      http://www.elOnionBloggle.Blogspot.com

      40

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    For those who doubt what climate change on the North Coast of New South Wales looks like,
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1194493088783167490.html

    This post also slays the noxious statement made by Barnaby Joyce regarding voting and fires.

    Also for those fixated on the greens, they hold roughly 50 local government seats, out of around 1500 in total.

    124

    • #
      Annie

      I thought his statement unnecessary but certainly not noxious. He was probably correct, as it happens, but possibly not.

      120

    • #

      He seems to be claiming that local logging causes droughts. Sort of the inverse of the old “rain follows the plow” myth, but equally mythical. Mind you his rant is a bit hard to follow.

      110

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        The Australian experience of rainfall and forests has received some studies, mostly in SE WA. Like all science, there is a difference of opinion, but it does tie in with the Amazonian studies, following clearing there.

        315

      • #

        Bewildering claims about logging.

        Logging and forestry have scaled right down here on the midcoast. I live near state forest and NP, have state forest on my boundary and have commuted on foot and by MTB for over twenty years all through that forest. There will be some forestry soon, to our relief, but overall it’s been phased down to almost zilch over three decades.

        The stunt is not just to ignore the fact but to state the exact opposite of the fact with so much vigor (and obscenity) that nobody checks.

        But I guess that’s been the history of the climate beat-up. Mugs never check…and they assume we’re all mugs. Bit like the coral, isn’t it?

        100

        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          On my bit of the MNC, logging is going ahead, but like you say at a slower pace. Apparently they miscalculated the biomass production (forgot about environmental conditions like drought most likely) so their 14-15 year rotation has stretched to 25-30, which, if they were like one of the private consortiums would have sent them broke too.

          28

          • #

            Why would they forget? Drought conditions are endemic, despite average high rainfall. 1901-2-3, 1909, 1915, 1940-1,1993…why would they “forget about environmental conditions”? The Millennium Drought was not as dry as those other clusters, there has been no general decline in rainfall here, despite the severity of this year’s drought.

            Using these prissy, sciency sounding terms like “biomass production” won’t change facts about rainfall. If there is less prime stock or if there are regulatory limitations, I can believe it. But talking about a rotation doubling because of “drought most likely” flies in the face of easily ascertainable fact.

            The person who wrote the obscene, incoherent rant you linked to was obviously pushing an agenda at any price. If it impressed you (assuming you are one person) I suggest you get unimpressed.

            110

          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Peter, this sort of reply reads like deliberate junk and is probably the sort of thing that causes people to respond adversely to your brief moment of truth in responding to william x below.

            KK

            70

          • #

            Less likely that they forgot than they sold investors on the shorter turn around

            03

        • #
          Dennis

          Drive on the old Pacific Highway from Bulahadelah to Coolongoolook and observe the National Park sections, gullies full of fallen trees and branches, lantana and many other weeds in the tangled undergrowth and vines growing up tree trunks and covering the canopies.

          This is typical of many areas around New South Wales.

          50

    • #
      william x

      Hi Peter. This is weekend unthreaded. Are you willing to answer questions from me?

      60

    • #
      william x

      Peter, What tertiary credentials do you have?

      60

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        A degree in biology, and a degree in applied science, and you?

        410

        • #
          william x

          A degree in mining engineering studied at UNSW/wollongong that was sponsored by AIS, Australian Iron and Steel, a then subsidery of BHP. I was employed at Metropolitan colliery, Helensburg from 1980. I no longer work in that field. I have no financial gain from that company, no reason to protect them. No reason to promote that company.

          I subsequently joined the fire service and have 27 years of service.

          Fitz, you or I might disagree, as we have done. But if we fight against each other we may lose the bigger picture. By doing that we may lose more lives.

          The main problem is that at the moment fuel level loads on the ground are at an all time high. I participated in 81 prescribed burns between 1991 and 2003, from 2003 to present only 1.

          If we as a nation blame climate change for this, then the govt and local councils can segway their responsibility out of what they have caused by mismanagement of custodianship of our land by citing climate change as the cause.

          There are no positives for anyone of us. In doing so more lives in the future will be at risk or lost. That is wrong. I hate to see a life lost. I have seen too many. Fitz lets join together to get this fixed and then you and I can respectfully throw as many insults and barbs and abusive prose at each other afterwards. If we can stop our differences to save lives by helping to tell the truth about the inept management of local and state governments regarding this issue. Then you and I will have made a massive difference. Maybe a life saved.

          Stay well Fitz and I thank you for your reply

          190

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            William, yes let’s do that. I do respect your career as well. And I agree about the inept management. To your list I would add timber producers (mostly state that’s true)

            14

        • #
    • #
      william x

      In what field do you work in?

      60

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Ecology bs (before kids), then IT – planning and optimisation mostly (in a multitude of employers, ending with 10 years with an electricity distributor , then environmental stuff like Landcare ac (after kids left home)

        28

        • #
          Lionell Griffith

          Self aggrandized job descriptions are one thing, actual accomplishments are another.

          What have you actually accomplished and delivered, fully operational, that made the earth better for humans?

          63

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            introduction of composting toilets on the pacific highway back in the 90′s, and you Lionell

            49

            • #
              Lionell Griffith

              One week after taking my first job in industry (1965), I invented the first disposable biopsy needle. Worked to get it into production. The second year, the profits from its sale more than paid for my entire tenure of three years with the company. The product saved uncounted lives and at least $100 per biopsy. It is still being manufactured and used world wide today – more than 50 years later.

              During the 1970s, my software was used to analyze a major portion of the steel, aluminum, cement, and zinc in the US and world wide.

              This BEFORE you got off the ground and introduced a composting toilet, which you did not invent nor work to get on the market, on the pacific highway. Nothing but paper work and using the gun of government to get things done by SOMEONE ELSE. No actual accomplishment.

              As I pointed out earlier, your “achievements” are to force people to do what they would not otherwise have done – power over people. I provide technological artifacts that work so that people can choose to use or not to make their lives better.

              141

            • #
              yarpos

              and useless smelly things they are too, barely better than nothing at all

              50

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            …………………..crickets…………………….
            just like William x
            you want me to answer any and all of your questions, then I’m accused of self aggrandisement(!) in answering them.

            46

            • #
              Lionell Griffith

              I asked what you ACTUALLY have done. As near as I can tell, you have done nothing but paper work and use the gun of government to make people do things they would not have otherwise have done. This is the achievement of a thug. It is irrelevant that it was proforma “legal”.

              What is it that you have actually done and delivered in an operational form that people are free to choose to use or not?

              81

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                I do not understand, the introduction of those composting toilets made innumerable trips much more bearable, which would surely satisfy your criteria. Congratulations on the biopsy needle, by the way.

                Just to be clear here
                1. there is no requirement to have any form of education to post on this particular site
                2. there is no requirement to have made any particular achievement
                3. there is no requirement to have started work in the 1960′s
                4. there is absolutely no requirement to name call “thug” springs to mind

                45

              • #

                With sinking heart, I must give a tick to the above.

                Whether or not Peter Fitzroy is a composite or single character and whether or not he (or one of “him”) is telling the truth on this point, composting toilets and well-organised resting spots on major highways are an example of public money very well spent.

                The best description I can find of a conservative is “serial appreciator”. As a serial appreciator, I would never let an economic dogma get in the way of something that just works. It would be good if government could be kept small and out of the way of free enterprise, but it would also be good if corporate capitalism could be kept out of the way of free enterprise. (And please, no more maverick capitalists like Bezos and Musk who are actually fronts for the permanent state!)

                Also, the great weakness of requiring educational and practical achievements is that so many promoters of the wedge beliefs of fabian globalism (eg the climate panic) can point to prizes and awards for all kinds of achievements, many of them real…but these people remain dupes and dupers of a colossal collectivist evil into which we are (yet again) being headed.

                The trouble with believing 2+2=4 solely because someone more qualified told me so is that I may then be required to believe 2+2=5 because someone even more qualified told me so. And much of this climate beat-up – when you look at the deliberate obscuring of geology, stratigraphy, oceanography, speleology, glaciology, history, archaeology etc etc – is not far off telling us that 2+2=5.

                80

              • #
                WXcycles

                I do not understand, the introduction of those composting toilets made innumerable trips much more bearable, which would surely satisfy your criteria. Congratulations on the biopsy needle, by the way.

                I detest public compost toilets and won’t use them, they reek and the mind boggles as to what a swab sample would find. As a boy I lived in the bush in a caravan for about a year, and that involved using a spade and a roll of toilet paper. We did the same thing when camping on hunting trips. On a road-trip we’d pull-over and get handed the roll in the glovebox, then head for a bush. We had no problem with doing this and our parents were fine about it too. It was interesting for us kids to compare notes on various techniques. You learned fast how not to muck it up. I didn’t use an indoor flushing toilet until I was five and it was fascinating to ponder where it went, how the cistern refilled but then stopped automatically (spooky stuff!). Spent some time experimenting with the button. But then there were the green tree frogs which tended to keep you alert. All I can say is thank goodness for insect screens in the 1970s and 1980s, as these finally kept the frogs out of the bowl. It was probably this factor which initiated the crash in frog population within the ‘developed’ world.

                50

              • #
                Peter Fitzroy

                The idea behind the use of composting toilets was that they could be placed anywhere as they did not need power, or connection to a sewage or septic system. This meant that a bit of work on the existing rest areas would be all that was needed. The other advantage was that the waste product is considered quite valuable, and helps offset the cost of maintenance.

                02

              • #
                yarpos

                Completely trivial to have a small water suppy and have decent toilets as per rest stops in VIC, the NSW ones are just some public servants fantasy.

                11

              • #
                Lionell Griffith

                The point is, ALL he did was paperwork. He did not invent or build his toilets. He simply had the government take money from those who earned it and used that money to buy the toiled and have them installed. Any government thug can do that.

                How about creating a real value for real living humans that makes their lives better BECAUSE they want to use them and can afford to buy them? That possibility does not exist is PF’s mind “I do not understand,”.

                I know he doesn’t understand because other people are simply bottomless ATMs from which to extract wealth that he gets to spend to make himself feel “holier than thou”. Again demonstrating the ethics of a thug. That is my point.

                That the toilets might be a bit better expenditure of public funds is one thing. However, how about leaving that wealth in the hands of those who created/earned the wealth in the first place?

                40

            • #
              Roy Hogue

              Now that’s just a cop out Peter. Lionell put you to the test you asked for. Now answer him instead of dodging. But I suspect you can’t or you would embrace the challenge give him the answer he tried to get from you, an answer that would make you look good.

              50

              • #
                Roy Hogue

                The things you list are nothing to be ashamed of. Surely in all that work history there was a deliverable item that stands out as something that enhanced peoples lives, improved the way things were done, whatever it was. Tell us what it was.

                50

              • #
                MarkMcD

                To be fair, Peter didn’t start the Q’s regarding quals. William did. There’s no special rights attached to the various jobs people need to do to live and no need to run them down.

                We may not like bureaucrats but we all have to live in the society that mandates them and none of us has done much to reduce, let alone remove them.

                And at least he managed to provide for people in the real world – many bureaucrats are totally removed from any such idea.

                I’d be more inclined to ask about the apparent discrepancy between… “A degree in biology, and a degree in applied science” and “Ecology bs” – seems to me a BS is A degree, not 2 of them.

                50

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Peter,

          I have to assume that your replies here regarding your qualifications and work history were made in good faith.

          They don’t deserve to be the subject of abuse as they may be the only truthful and honest posts that you have made here.

          KK

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          • #
            Lionell Griffith

            I have no faith in faith. Faith and $3.95 might by a cup of coffee at Starbucks but, faith alone, not to much.

            How about something of actual substance beyond the mostly government paperwork job descriptions with results to be implemented using government coercion and stolen wealth?

            21

    • #
      beowulf

      Is that the best you can come up with Peter? What a frothing, rambling, incoherent, ignorant, Greenie rant from this Walker fellow.

      the moment gina & rupert went halves & purchased the LNP wholesale . . . we saw a MASSIVE increase in wholesale industrial logging across the nation” — of which nation is he speaking? Certainly not Australia. Here logging has been systematically strangled for the past 40 years. There are closed saw mills and empty timber towns all over the place. I’m guessing he’s not a Liberal voter.

      “trees send up moisture . . . creating low pressure troughs” — better tell the meteorologists how low pressure systems are created by trees . . . except for when they aren’t.

      “ask the residents of the atacama desert in chile – who haven’t had rain for one THOUSAND years. why? no f***ing trees” — he obviously has zero idea of rain shadows and orographic rainfall.

      Referring to the Greens — “that time we elected them to majority government & they had the final say. when was that again, anthony? i’ll wait. nah. lets move on, since we ALL know this was never a thing – ever.” — regurgitates the fallacy that because the Greens haven’t held government at state and federal level they haven’t held power over land management policy for at least a couple of decades while they have had governments of both persuasions in their thrall. Meanwhile many local councils ARE festering with Greens. Oh look, how about that, even the Glen Innes-Severn Shire Mayor is a Green, where this idiot lives.

      https://greensoncouncil.org.au/glen-innes/
      Mayor Carol Sparks (appropriate name) — “I am an activist; protecting endangered species habitats and waterways is my passion”

      “LNP ‘slashing & burning’ every national park in sight” — this bloke needs professional help and glasses, in that order.

      “27 years of no burn had left a healthy & regenerating semi-arid rainforest” — this boy really knows his botany. “Semi-arid rainforest”?????. Hadn’t burnt for 27 years . . . and it is “semi-arid”. Is that not a recipe for bushfire? Presumably he means Dry Rainforest . . . hint — Dry Rainforest burns (and recovers), that’s why it never developed into more complex rainforest.

      His river hasn’t dried up in probably 100,000 years minimum. until last summer & it’s been bone dry since august. this has never happened in my entire 25 or so years here” — So with 25 years’ experience he can pronounce what has happened for at least the last 100,000 years. Right, got it.

      And so it goes on. What a load of unadulterated crap.

      121

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Ok, I’m hoping that you would understand the anger that a lot of the locals have, but obviously not. As to the Greenings, she is one, and she is the mayor, but she is not the council.

        ass to the rest of your assertions, they are just that.

        113

        • #
          Lionell Griffith

          Boo hoo! PF complains that some people are angry. So what? I am angry about what you stand for. Also, so what?

          Emotion never did anything nor accomplished anything. To accomplish something takes a functional mind using knowledge, reason, reality, and logic to determine what to do and how to do it. Then the freedom to choose to act upon that knowledge and then to act.

          What have you done that supports that kind of achievement?

          60

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Peter,

          We are away from the exchange which william x and yourself engaged in: a credit to you both.

          Now back into your more standard response mode and sadly deserving of criticism and exposure of the poor thinking and green religious doctrines.

          Beowulf has neatly collected both green and Glen Innes pronouncements that give good insight into your own conditioned responses.
          These beliefs may have been the sort of blinkered thinking that eventually led to three deaths and the destruction of 150 homes in the region.

          Common sense and two hundred years of accumulated experience should not be dismissed lightly as has been done by so many in government to the detriment of real people like yourself.

          Don’t be misled into thinking that any government, lib, lab or green influenced, has your best interest at heart. If they can avoid paying for preventative burns they will because they can use the money closer to home for personal benefit, carpooling, or vote-buying.

          The fact that some may get burnt doesn’t seem to worry them.

          Maybe Barnaby Joyce was closer to the mark than people want to acknowledge. There does seem to be a lot of green up there.

          KK

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      • #
        MarkMcD

        “regurgitates the fallacy that because the Greens haven’t held government at state and federal level they haven’t held power over land management policy for at least a couple of decades while they have had governments of both persuasions in their thrall. Meanwhile many local councils ARE festering with Greens. Oh look, how about that, even the Glen Innes-Severn Shire Mayor is a Green”

        ^^ This. I have been trying to get this across to those protesting green innocence for years. The fires currently simply highlight it but I have experience with Ash Wednesday and Black Saturday precursor ‘green’ policies being enforced in the bush.

        70

        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          This is an excerpt of the official greens policy
          “Hazard reduction, including manual, mechanical and hazard reduction burning activities should be strategically planned to protect the community and vulnerable assets while minimising the adverse impacts of these activities on the environment.”

          now in NSW – we knocked down perfectly good stadiums and rebuilt them at tremendous cost, surely that was a good allocation of money?

          17

          • #
            Brian

            Bit selective on that greens policy quote PF. The one that left me scratching my head was “Strict controls are required to reduce the amount of rural burning that is not required for essential asset protection”. Since there are rarely any essential assets in national parks I guess we can look forward to a cycle of the progressive accumulation of deadfall, bark and leaf litter and invasive species followed by yet another inferno which you can them blame on global warming.

            80

            • #
              Peter Fitzroy

              I think yo miss the point of national parks, Brian. You could argue that the whole park is an asset in need of protection, and also that the protection is from fire.

              18

              • #
                OriginalSteve

                Only if thd parks mgt are being irresponsoble

                40

              • #
                MarkMcD

                In the 80′s in Victoria we regularly had fires come over the border from NSW, out of control and raging because the Parks service up there would not fight a fire unless property or lives were in imminent danger.

                I was at 2 fires in Bendoc that spent a couple of days in NSW as small easily controlled fires then flared and crossed the border 15 kms wide and with 50,000 hectares damage to ‘the asset’!

                In both those we had 10 or more aircraft and hundreds of men on the lines in country where you need a D( on one side of the mountain to hold up the D9 on the other side making a fire break.

                And not a greenie in sight, just foresters and other ‘bush rapers’ out there fighting.

                That Green manifesto for bush management is carefully worded to conceal the fact that they want NO back burning or fuel reduction burns and they use their ‘balance of power’ in the Parliament to make sure their homicidal policies get enacted.

                After Ash Wednesday proper bush management was reinstated and we were safe from wild fire for a while but slowly (& it was mostly Labs) the Govt brought back in the greenie insanity and we got Black Saturday.

                There is an agenda being run on us and it has nothing to do with our good or our safety.

                60

          • #
            TedM

            “Hazard reduction, including manual, mechanical and hazard reduction burning activities should be strategically planned to protect the community and vulnerable assets while minimising the adverse impacts of these activities on the environment.”

            Just words PF. The actual amount of hazard reduction that they actually propose would do almost nothing to protect either the public or the environment.

            70

          • #
            robert rosicka

            Hey Poiter that greens policy is that the amended version from a few weeks ago or the ago old policy ?

            30

      • #
        Another Ian

        They forgot prosopis tamarugal in the Atacama. It harvests water from the fogs

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopis_tamarugo

        30

    • #
      glen Michel

      Back in 1977 I bought a $500 share in Wytaliba but unsold 2 years later. The property was originally a sheep run mixed cattle – and largely cleared excepting the higher ridges. I last visited 20 years ago and it was a disaster in waiting with regrowth scrub and forest regeneration. Dwellings were scattered throughout. Peter should study his weather better.
      wi

      80

    • #
      TedM

      So what caused all the big fires before climate change PF? Biggest ones in SW WA 1937 and 1951. With regard to your statement it is the rank and file greens who make representation against burning to local councils and to State Govt. departments, get onto committees such as one that I served on. I won’t mention the tactics that I have seen them employ to prevent burns taking place in case we get copycats.

      I spent 18 years in fire surveillance and monitoring the effect of burns and fires on rare and priority flora. Am co-author of two papers on fire in SW eucalypt forest, with two different fire research scientists.

      As far as climate change is concerned we are not in so called uncharted territory. Climate changes irrespective of what humans do. The data is there and I’m sure you are actually aware of that fact.

      https://youtu.be/E6RrgBrb6R8?fbclid=IwAR2q7OWKrnaEWOIsw6POjUQpjksX1L_cFTbyIImlYHqzv3tGxQSF4dNUZ3M

      50

  • #
    Annie

    Well, I’ve just woken up from a doze to try to read…..zzzzz!

    100

  • #
    Ian Hill

    I went to the chemist during the week to have my monthly prescription for tablets to treat cholesterol filled and was told that paper scripts are no longer being issued by doctors. I said I hate that sort of thing (implied save the planet by reducing paper use). The lady nodded and started to give me a card with details of an “app” which will apparently enable the doctor to put the script on my phone. I said I don’t have an I-phone (or whatever they are called) and never will get one. She was stumped!

    Given that it is mostly the older generation who refuses to use these smart phones and at the same time are more likely to rely on prescription medicines, what is going to happen?

    Has this happened to anyone else?

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    • #
      Annie

      Handy for those without a ‘smart’ (dumb) ‘phone! Handy for those who can’t use one because of age or infirmity. Another bright idea from some bright young clever clogs no doubt!

      140

      • #
        Annie

        Remember how computers were supposed to help us to save paper? Ha ha :(

        110

        • #
          Ian Hill

          They just save the company paper. Now everyone buys a cheap printer (but expensive ink refills) and supplies their own paper.

          The fax machines of the 1980s were exploited by advertisers using other people’s paper!

          50

          • #
            Graeme No.3

            Saved the company paper?
            When the company (recent subsidiary of multi-national) was put on the new computer system, it took 17 keystrokes.to get to a formula with Raw Material costs. Once you got ONE figure you were dumped back to the start. Naturally the chemists worked around that by printing out the formula, or maybe 2 or 3 to get the full range. The computer wanted a broad paper 9 pin impact printer, one which we hadn’t had on site for about 10 years, so the result was 6 – 9 pages which you had to align with sticky tape to get the data. That then went to the shredder.
            The waste of time alone was such that the local company wanted to buy a separate program just for formulating. This didn’t avoid the clumsy data entry necessary to put the new product into the overall system. Eventually the H.O. “solved” this problem by setting up their own computer software company to build a “front end” program. Only cost about US $24 million.

            40

          • #
            robert rosicka

            Ian Hill when the cartridges run out of ink I throw the printer out and buy a new one , cheap printer under $20 versus ink cartridge around $20 for just the black .

            30

            • #
              Graeme#4

              Ever thought about buying cheap printer cartridges? My printer is well over five years old and still going strong by using the cheap cartridges.

              10

              • #
                Graeme#4

                Also meant to say: Not sure if you are aware that the cartridges supplied with the printer usually aren’t filled up completely.

                10

    • #
      GD

      enable the doctor to put the script on my phone

      I had to laugh the other day at the local eco fruit and vegetable shop. Ahead of me in the queue was a barefoot, bearded young man attempting to pay for his kale and cauliflower with his iPhone. He eventually got the right app, after much eye-rolling from those in the queue, and it worked but really, why not just carry a plastic card or cash.

      On second thoughts don’t carry cash, it confuses the young checkout staff.

      100

    • #
      Curious George

      “Has this happened to anyone else?” To all dinosaurs. We are going extinct, but we can rebel to go faster.

      40

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Pretty much yes, though the details are different. And I don’t like it either.

      40

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        I would never try to carry around something as big as these “smart phones”. They don’t fit in any pocket and my wife’s iPhone weighs too much into the bargain.

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    • #
      Slithers

      Un-less you are genetically pre-disposed to blocked arteries the Statins in anti- cholesterol medications are bad for your general health.

      50

      • #
        MarkMcD

        And get off carbs and watch the problems go away. Keytones ROX!

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        • #
          Brian

          Could not agree more Mark. My wife was overweight and diabetic. Went keytone and is now trim and terrific and off diabetic medicines.

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          • #
            Hanrahan

            That’s great Brian. I’ve been reading about keto and it always leads to a discussion of insulin and diabetes. Your story demonstrates that they are on the right track.

            I’m on keto lite and while I’m staying healthy I’m not losing weight. Will have to take it more seriously.

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        • #
          Brian

          Could not agree more Mark. My wife was overweight and diabetic. Went keytone and is now trim and terrific and off diabetic medicines.

          10

      • #
        Hanrahan

        I agree with Slithers but cannot give medical advice. That doesn’t stop me recommending some reading though and I strongly suggest that anyone on statins also read up on CoQ10. The same mechanism statins use to block cholesterol also blocks synthesization of CoQ10 which drops anyway after the mid 20s.

        10

    • #
      Ian Hill

      After speaking to some people about it, this may just be the chemist chain or franchise trying to be green and not something coming from say the AMA. If so they will lose a lot of customers.

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  • #

    Fun stuff: “Propagation of Error and the Reliability of Global Air Temperature Projections” is published in Frontiers in Earth Science: Atmospheric Sciences. It’s open access and available here:

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/feart.2019.00223/full

    The big conclusion: “Propagation of LWCF thermal energy flux error …. uncovers a ±15 C uncertainty in air temperature at the end of a centennial-scale projection. Analogously large but previously unrecognized uncertainties must therefore exist in all the past and present air temperature projections and hindcasts of even advanced climate models. The unavoidable conclusion is that an anthropogenic air temperature signal cannot have been, nor presently can be, evidenced in climate observables.”

    Nor are the projections credible. The uncertainty is overwhelming.

    Excellent work.

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    • #
      Curious George

      We can’t predict (pardon, project – notice how carefully all climate scientists avoid the word “predict”) but we can still analyze the past. We can use models developed for the stock market which made so many people rich – or poor.

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      • #
        MarkMcD

        The church of AGW computer models constantly fail to predict the past. That’s one of the reasons they keep modifying past data.

        I doubt very much the model outputs of the priests of AGW fit the word project either – they use that as an aspirational term. The word they want to avoid which is a more accurate description of what they do is… Prophesy.

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  • #
    joseph

    This was a reply to Latus Dexter in the previous thread at #1.1.3.1.6

    Latus,

    Wakefield is a subject I have followed for many years. Both sides of the story. I read your link. It is accurate to the degree that it gives an account in accord with what was published that was critical of the article published in the Lancet. But there’s a lot more to it. And it’s no where near an exact parallel with the climatism charade.

    You might want to read Wakefield’s book, “Callous Disregard”.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Latus has replied, but no. This is far off topic. Not at #1. Move to unthreaded OK? – Jo

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  • #
    Annie

    Time for The Pratties on Pointman’s blog btw. I’m considering my choices…

    40

    • #
      Yonniestone

      The field is so big Annie in fact you could hold an Academy Awards type ceremony to cover the world of Pratticism (made it up) that occurs in the various areas of climate activism, state politics, business, NGO’s, virtue signal of the year etc…..

      Sure its nice to recognise the big end of town but its the little Pratt’s that make all the difference for so many.

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      • #
        Graeme No.3

        Yonnie:
        I have nominated Dopey Dan (or Dan Andrews as some call him) for Prat of the Year. Just a long shot although backed up by another nomination.
        Followed by that well known BBC script reader. Sir David Attenborough DBJW (Doctor of Bungy Jumping Walruses)

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  • #
    pat

    I have a comment in moderation.

    ten minutes ago, on Sky UK, they had a massive screen-shot of Greta in the background, as they talked to 3 Generation Z actors about their play, Youthquake. only saw the end of the fawning interview, with talk of how they can change the world but, presumably, “climate” was part of the story.

    behind paywall:

    17 Oct: UK Times: Youthquake review — spiky but unclear attempt to empower Generation Z
    Stratford Circus Arts Centre, E15
    by Chris Bennion
    Generation Z is mad as hell and they’re not going to take it any more. At least that’s the claim of this well-intentioned piece of touring theatre from Zest Theatre, which gives us an intentionally patronising Ted talk-esque presentation on how young people can change the world, then railroads it with the real voices and real concerns of teenagers in Britain today.
    However, pillorying cheesy educational theatre is a delicate balancing act when what you are delivering is itself cheesy educational theatre. You have the voice, don’t listen to the adults, says this spiky 60-minute show, created and directed by adults.

    Becky (Claire Gaydon) is a thirtysomething millennial who wants to inspire and empower Gen Z (born mid-1990s). Her talk, however, is filled with empty…
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/youthquake-review-spiky-but-unclear-attempt-to-empower-generation-z-mb2ntj3r5

    following the above, Sky UK is now showing a half-hour “Inside the Rebellion” program on XR – “an exclusive report from Sky News Cimate Change correspondent Hannah Thomas-Peter”, says the menu. only watched a few minutes – absolutely sickening.

    15 Nov: Sky UK: Extinction Rebellion are on the rise and here to stay
    Extinction Rebellion protesters have compared themselves to historical icons like Gandhi and Martin Luther King
    by Hannah Thomas-Peter
    With the invocation of those icons, Mr Paluch-Machnik revealed how XR thinks of itself – an extension of a grand tradition of civil and human rights activism that has, to quote MLK himself, bent the arc of the moral universe towards justice…
    https://news.sky.com/story/extinction-rebellion-are-on-the-rise-and-here-to-stay-11861650

    15 Nov: SkyUK: Inside Extinction Rebellion: Two months embedded with climate change protesters
    Sky News spent two months embedded with Extinction Rebellion, finding out who they are and how they are organised.
    By Andy Hughes, specialist producer
    I spent two months with Extinction Rebellion – also known as XR – as the movement attempted one of the biggest uprisings this country has seen in modern times…
    There was Roman Paluch-Macknik, 26, a former office worker and one of the main organisers. He had a true rebel nature that I liked. He was willing to do whatever it took to stand up for what he believes in…
    https://news.sky.com/story/inside-extinction-rebellion-two-months-embedded-with-climate-change-protesters-11861321

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    • #
      pat

      MULTIPLE POSTINGS OF THIS LINE ON THE WEB: ‘It’s our aim to polarise the public’:

      Facebook: Sky News UK: 16h ago
      ‘It’s our aim to polarise the public’ – Roman Paluch-Macknik is an #ExtinctionRebellion activist.
      Sky News followed him during the ‘October Rebellion’.
      179 COMMENTS AT TIME OF POSTING, THOSE I’VE SEEN ARE ALL NEGATIVE
      Stephen Rucastle: Stop giving these extremists airtime. It’s irresponsible…
      https://www.facebook.com/skynews/posts/3209556745725567

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      • #
        pat

        Roman seems to have little or not presence online except for recent XR stuff.

        About Roman Paluch-machnik
        Education:
        University of Sussex
        Brighton
        https://en-gb.facebook.com/romek.paluchmachnik

        nothing since Jul 2017 – nothing to look at:

        Twitter: Roman Paluch-Machnik
        https://twitter.com/rpaluchm?lang=en

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        • #
          pat

          btw Sussex Uni is a hotbed of CAGW. if Roman was educated there, it would explain his giving talks:

          Vegfest Brighton Speakers: Extinction Rebellion: Roman Paluch-Machnik, Activist
          Roman Paluch-Machnik has been working with Extinction Rebellion since July 2018. Since then he has been involved in numerous actions, delivered talks discussing climate and ecological collapse and the need for Civil Disobedience and delivered Non-Violent Direct Action Trainings across the country…
          Timetable: Environment Panel – 12 Years and counting?
          What we know and don’t know about climate catastrophe and how to avoid it. Is veganism a silver bullet? Or is it one of many?Join our discussion with three experts who have integrated approaches to saving our lives.
          Radical veganism full timetable
          https://brighton.vegfest.co.uk/speakers/roman-paluch-machnik/

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    • #
      WXcycles

      I’ll cheer XR when they start self-immolating to protest being ignored by people who have children, who work, pay-taxes, follow the law and are mature enough to reject ideology, and refuse to give consideration to such acting-out immature malcontented time-wasting ill-educated clowns, who are little more than early stage bums, making excuses for their failure to apply themselves constructively to the challenges of living in a world where everything was just laid on for them.

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      • #
        Yonniestone

        I’ll cheer XR when they protest in Tiananmen Square.

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        • #
          WXcycles

          Have a look at this page, from the bottom towards the top, it graphically displays what sort of country China is.

          https://amti.csis.org/mischief-reef/

          And where were these Greenies? And the oh-so-sincere about saving the world from the Climate-Jabberwocky? ‘Missing in Action’. Too busy attacking and undermining countries which always do the right things to the best of their abilities, whilst the greenie hysterics ignored all the things which actually mattered.

          That used to be called, ‘straining at a gnat, and swallowing a camel’, the mark of the consummate hypocrites.

          ____________________
          KJV Matthew 23:24 “… Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, [XR and Greenpeace], hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. …”

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  • #
    StephenP

    We have had it all before, where some people have to have a cause to follow. Some worthwhile, some misguided/misinformed, (a bit like Rick and the waters in Casablanca).

    Over the past 60 odd years:
    The Greek colonels.
    Vietnam War.
    Student sit-ins where you could only speak to the crowd if you were sufficiently woke.
    Student riots in France.
    The Red Brigade.
    Nuclear power, no thanks.
    The Argentinean generals.
    The Chilean generals.
    Save the whale.
    Save the dolphins.
    Boycot South Africa.
    (Suprisingly little fuss when Russia went into Hungary and Czechoslovakia).
    Acid Rain.
    Ozone Hole.
    Now Global Warming/Climate Change/Climate Emergency/Extinction Rebellion.
    etc. etc.

    When I started work in 1967 the average length of time the company pension was drawn was 18 months, now it is nearer 18 years.
    The population of Ethiopia has doubled since the Band Aid concerts raised money for the refugees, so something must have come right.

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  • #
    pat

    comment #1 is out of moderation. comments at the WUWT post has excerpts from important Graham Lloyd article on the origins of the 11,000 scientists say “statement”, plus Ezra Levant youtube expose re Canadian signatories.

    tried to post Lloyd’s piece on Jo’s Marohasy thread yesterday, but could not get it through. it did not even go into moderation. at the time, it was open access, now it is behind paywall.

    as Bolt has stated:

    Youtube: 5min21sec: Sky News: New ‘big global warming scare’ is simply a ‘con’
    Sky News host Andrew Bolt says we have experienced “another day, another big global warming scare”, one which he describes as being nothing more than a “con”.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps0qpv5RVWo

    ABC admitted the statement was not “peer-reviewed”, but did not subject it to an RMIT/ABC Fact Check!

    6 Nov: ABC: Climate emergency declared by 11,000 scientists worldwide who warn of ‘catastrophic threat’ to humanity
    By national science, technology and environment reporter Michael Slezak
    More than 11,000 scientists around the world have signed a scientific paper declaring a climate emergency, backing protesters across the world demanding action…

    The paper, which was not peer-reviewed, includes signatures from scientists from 153 countries…
    Professor Ripple said the paper was a form of what he described as “scientific advocacy”.
    “We are basing our conclusions on science that is not really disputed,” he said. “The key here is that it’s evidence-based and science-based.”…
    On its website, the group links to a range of resources, including the more radical movement, Extinction Rebellion…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/climate-change-emergency-11000-scientists-sign-petition/11672776

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    • #
      pat

      Matt McGrath’s BBC piece – featured in the WUWT post – doesn’t even say it wasn’t peer-reviewed, yet has the headline:

      6 Nov: BBC: Climate change: ‘Clear and unequivocal’ emergency, say scientists
      By Matt McGrath, Environment correspondent
      A global group of around 11,000 scientists have endorsed research that says the world is facing a climate emergency…
      The researchers say they have a moral obligation to warn of the scale of the threat…
      All the details of who’s signed the endorsement have been published online…
      https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50302392

      between ABC and BBC, they call this advocacy -

      a scientific paper, a paper, a study, research, and a report.

      this rubbish has been pushed by FakeNewsMSM WORLDWIDE for more than a week.

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      • #
        robert rosicka

        Pat ABC drive presenter Nicole Chavastic reports this as 15,000 scientists and peer reviewed .
        Which is a change from the 97% of thousands of IPCC scientists meme .

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    • #
      WXcycles

      11,000 scientists? Even if that were true, which it clearly isn’t, it’s still a joke. In the last 50 years my own university alone would have graduated well over 11,000 scientists!

      We’re supposedly talking of a global cohort of scientists from 153 countries, and all they could muster was a pitiful 11,000 to signatures? Most of which are not even scientists?

      Who are they then? Humanities department groupies? Failed ‘psychologists’? Feminism-studies doctorate holders?

      They sure aren’t scientists, there are many millions of scientists on this planet, from those 153 countries, who decided not to sign it.

      What about all them, media jackasses?

      A mere 11,000 is not representative of global scientists! What it is, is freakin’ laughable!

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      • #
        Nick Werner

        Who wouldn’t take seriously 10,998 ‘scientists’ that represent a continuum between two obvious extremes — a cartoon mouse (Micky) and a wizard (Dumbledore)?

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  • #
    pat

    ignore the top, short video:

    VIDEO AT BOTTOM: 2min56sec: 9sec: 15 Nov: RT: Hamburg with 4,000 tractors, reject ‘scapegoating’ by govt
    German farmers have flooded a city’s streets with thousands of tractors, in protest against new environment regulations; they are accusing the government of bullying them as it conducts its fight for a ‘green’ economy.
    Around 4,000 tractors arrived in the northern city of Hamburg on Thursday, where a meeting of regional environment ministers was being held…

    The Environment Ministry has recently proposed a set of regulations what would limit the use of certain types of weed killers and fertilizers – in order to protect birds, insects and groundwater. The farmers fear this will tank their businesses and endanger their very livelihood…
    “The rules, which are coming from the German government, are so hard for us that we can’t work on our farms.” Klaus-Peter Lucht, Vice President of the regional Farmers Association, told RT. “We can’t make good crops. We can’t have good fodder for the dairy [cows].”…

    The farmers have also been accusing the government of crafting ever-more restrictive rules without consulting them first. Dirk Andresen, the spokesperson for the ‘Land Creates Connection’ movement, which organized the rally, said that Environment Minister Svenja Schulze has been avoiding frank dialogue.
    “We invited her to come here but she is staying in Berlin and isn’t speaking to us.”
    The situation, meanwhile, remains grim, Andersen said. He earlier warned that “things for us look so bad that the regional farming culture will disappear in the long run.”

    Similar ‘tractor demos’ have taken place in different parts of Germany in recent months. Around 1,000 of vehicles rolled through Bonn alone last month. Food and Agriculture Minister Julia Koeckner promised the farmers subsidies and the help with modernization but their anger does not seem to cool down just yet.
    https://www.rt.com/news/473523-germany-hamburgs-tractors-protest/

    reminder:

    23 Oct: Breitbart: Farmers Protest Discrimination from Eco-Warriors in Germany
    by Kurt Zindulka
    Thousands of farmers in their tractors have taken to the streets of Germany, protesting the government’s environmentalist agenda and the climate of hostility that agriculture faces from urban eco-warriors…
    According to the German newspaper Die Welt, some 2,000 tractors descended upon the city of Bonn, and thousands of farmers took the same path in Hanover, Munich, Berlin, and Hamburg…

    Organised by a group called ‘Land Creates Connection’, the farmers demanded not only a say in the formation of agricultural and environmental policies but also respect from the public who rely on the fruits of their labour…
    Famers of Germany feel as though they are regularly scapegoated for environmental problems, and vilified by environmentalist groups as polluters and being guilty of animal cruelty…

    Many of the farmers believe that the new regulations will benefit large farming corporations which can afford to comply with the new rules, while smaller family-run farms will collapse under the regulatory pressure.
    One farmer told the Dutch broadcasting company NOS that: “We can’t even implement one rule and then another measure comes.”

    The protests across Germany comes after thousands of farmers took to their tractors to decry the environmentalist agenda in the Netherlands earlier this month. The protests were repeated weeks later when thousands of tractors descended upon the Dutch capital city, again protesting harsh European Union laws and to challenge anti-rural sentiment among urbanites.
    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/10/23/germany-farmers-protest-discrimination-eco-warriors/

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  • #

    My latest article, just posted:

    The IPCC contradicts the Climate Emergency

    https://www.cfact.org/2019/11/16/the-ipcc-contradicts-the-climate-emergency/

    Here is a recent screaming statement of the supposed climate change emergency: “Trump’s greatest dereliction of duty – – his disgraceful denial of climate change” in the Washington Post.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/05/trumps-greatest-dereliction-duty-his-disgraceful-denial-climate-change/

    This alarmist diatribe says: “At a time when the international scientific community has concluded that we have 11 years to avert the worst of climate change, Trump and his Republican allies are working to intensify the threat, not deter it. A more egregious dereliction of duty is impossible to imagine. Trump’s denial mirrors the story of Nero fiddling while Rome burns. Like Nero, Trump is helping set the flames. Democrats are raising the alarm. The contrast cannot be clearer.”

    Here is the wildly false claim: “At a time when the international scientific community has concluded that we have 11 years to avert the worst of climate change…” This claim occurs repeatedly in emergency declarations.

    This false claim refers to the IPCC SR15 report issued in October 2018. What the IPCC really said was we have the 12 years until 2030 to prevent the small difference in impact between 1.5 degrees of total warming and 2.0 degrees. With one degree already done this is just the difference between 0.5 degrees of new warming and 1.0 degrees. The question only came up because both targets are mentioned in the Paris Accord. The question thus arises, what difference this difference makes?

    According to the IPCC this difference in impact is very small. It is certainly not “the worst of climate change” as the Post and other alarmists repeatedly claim.

    Proponents of the climate emergency scare often cite last year’s IPCC SR15 report as their scientific basis, but it is no such thing. The widely proclaimed 12 year deadline is just for holding warming to 1.5 degrees, which the IPCC says is almost impossible. The IPCC numbers also say that exceeding that warming is in no way catastrophic. The difference between the impact of 1.5 degrees of total warming (just 0.5 degrees of new warming) and 2.0 degrees is tiny. Thus the IPCC report actually contradicts the unfounded claim of a climate emergency.

    Here is an example from the SR15 Summary for Policy Makers: “Temperature extremes on land are projected to warm more than GMST: extreme hot days in mid-latitudes warm by up to about 3°C at global warming of 1.5°C and about 4°C at 2°C, and extreme cold nights in high latitudes warm by up to about 4.5°C at 1.5°C and about 6°C at 2°C.”

    Extreme hot days, which are uncommon to begin with, warm by up to about just one degree going from 1.5 degrees to 2.0 degrees of total warming. This is certainly not an emergency. It is probably not even detectable due to natural variability.

    Note that the 3 degrees of hot weather warming at 1.5 degrees of total global warming and the 4 degrees at 2 degrees both include the one degree that is supposed to have already happened. Presumably something like half of this impact has already occurred, so that is not part of the future impact emergency issue.

    In short we are talking about just a tiny amount of impact as being the difference between 1.5 and 2.0 degrees of total warming. There is simply no basis for declaring an emergency in these IPCC numbers. There is nothing catastrophic in going to 2.0 degrees of warming instead of 1.5 degrees.

    Note too that extreme cold nights warm even more, which is arguably a good thing. Given that extreme cold is reportedly more dangerous than extreme heat, going to 2.0 degrees might even be net beneficial. Richard Tol’s integrated assessment model actually says this.

    The proponents of the scary emergency need to be called out on this contradiction. No IPCC science supports the climate emergency. What the proponents of climate emergency are calling for is all cost with no benefit.

    The emergency is a fallacy.

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    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      The emergency is a fallacy.

      Yep. But more importantly:

      The fallacy is an emergency.

      Like a woke ant it needs to be squashed.

      Squashed, before the western world falls under the jackboot of the green left socialists.

      President Trump has dealt with it. Prime Minister Morrison needs to do the same – but with a little more subtlety and finesse. I’m confident he’s up to the challenge. After all, the Labor Party is caught up in its internecine struggle between the green left infiltrators and subversives and the traditional Labor heart land. Now’s the time.

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  • #
    Richard Ilfeld

    Peter Fitzroy.
    I don’t care what your credentials are.
    I don’t care what your accomplishments are.
    I imagine you are indifferent to mine as well.
    In this medium we are reduced to our ability to carry on a conversation, convivially,
    and add such bits as one might use to bolster one’s arguments.

    I am have a difficulty with links. While the ability to link is a great strength of the web it is also a
    great weakness.

    It is too easy for appeal to authority to trump argument. We and you; and by extension warmists of all flavors and skeptics
    of all intensities seem unable to agree on who the authorities are, or what the basic facts are.

    I promise to eschew “I sent you a link, did you read it?”.

    On one of these unscripted weekends, it might be interesting to see if there is any core where the Venn diagrams of our thoughts on governance, economics,
    the conduct of science, and the human condition overlap.

    The human condition is best served by freedom. The greater the regimentation of the many by the few, the poorer the whole.

    The essence of government is monopoly. The essential monopoly is force. Successful states with long runs have strong institution inhibiting this monopoly power.

    The essence of science is failure. The vast majority of hypotheses are disproved. Constant public experimentation and repetition lead to the best results, which
    is sometimes a problem foe the sponsors of science.

    The essence of business is also failure, or rather, sub- optimal performance- and a continual trial to make it better. The mechanisms for creative destructive are strong in business and science.

    They are weak or non-existent in government.

    Government managing part of life by confiscating resources and re-deploying them,
    and another part by commanding performance.

    Drawing lines between the government and civilian society society on those two measures is a prime social differentiator.

    I’ll try only the first… 21% of GDP.

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  • #
    Environment Skeptic

    “Wealth Redistribution Through Climate Activism | Piers Corbyn Interview
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grtV811cURU

    10

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    To Peter Fitzroy,

    I have indicated support for your responses to william x above and appreciate them.

    Your regular posts are another matter because I have seen in them a lack of respect for Jo and her blog and those posting here.

    It seems that many here judge your routine comments to be uninformed malicious activism and have responded accordingly.

    KK

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  • #
    Kalm Keith

    The Man Made Global Warming mess is a symptom of the inability of humanity to think straight and reason things out.

    In large measure this failure to find the most useful path for the greatest number of people is not so much due to poor thinking but a manipulation of public perception by a few “influencers” who have something to gain.

    The inability to get a workable society is evident in many areas and yesterday we were again reminded of that failure, again. The world’s mental health is not good.

    California, Santa Clarita, six young people shot.

    The gun debate has many facets including profit, safety in a violent world, opportunistic suicides and as in this case, revenge plus suicide.

    How does a civil society sort this out.

    I suspect that the first step is to create governments that are accountable to the public and also trustworthy.

    We’re a long way from that ideal at the moment.

    KK

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    • #
      Richard Ilfeld

      The “gun” debate like many others, fails if one starts at first principles because it is not really about guns.
      The universal drug seems to be power over other people’s lives, in a command-of-action sort of way.

      If we were asking the question “how do we stop school/workplace shootings” we would come up with answers like
      airport security, which make such things more rare, but not extinct, because security practices sufficient to
      be 100% effective make life intolerable.

      If we assert “eliminate all guns” we leave human nature untouched and are left with stabbing and vehicular homocide issues.

      And in many of these cases we allow our horror to make us innumerate. If he incidence of tragedy resembles the incidence of a lightning
      strike perhaps we are just dealing with nature’s accidental malelovent wiring of a few brains.

      I think KK, the what we need first is local institutions that are accountable, and neighbors accountable to one another….far to much of the evil in my world
      is a town council pretending to attack a global initiative.

      …thew mote in god’s eye.

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  • #
    John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

    Perth- hottest November day ever recorded (40.4) trumpets the BoM and relayed by the ABC
    Now I looked at the BoM website and found that a November day (24th) back in 1913 which was listed as 40.3 degrees (link). Now that station stopped its recordings at the end of 1991. So where was this new record taken from? Maybe from the weather station at the Airport next to a jet engine exhaust.

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    • #
      Graeme#4

      John, the 1913 temperature would have been recorded at Mt Eliza, which stopped recording around 1967. Also that temperature recording could be regarded as 1-2 degrees cooler than the current Mt Lawley site. It appears that the BOM are making their statement only based on temperatures recorded at the new Mt Lawley site, so a restricted comparison range. Again, the BOM keep changing their comparison range to suit the narrative.

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    john

    It isn’’ the sea rising, it’s the land subsiding. Here are several locations around the world where it’s happening besides Venice. Some at 10 inches a year.

    When Al Gore’s film An Inconvenient Truth was released in 2006, some of its most striking images depicted the flooding of major cities from dramatic sea-level rise. Although the film’s imagery was somewhat exaggerated, the danger of flooding is a reality for many coastal cities.

    https://harvardpolitics.com/world/jakarta-sinking-how-subsidence-endangers-indonesias-capital/

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/story/salt-lake-geological-survey-of-india-1611239-2019-10-20

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/en.radiofarda.com/amp/30245807.html

    https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/latest-news/news/2019/10/23/vietnam—rise-and-fall-toward-a-sustainable-mekong-delta

    https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/02/study-of-sea-level-rise-finds-land-sinking-along-east-coast/

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/marshallshepherd/2019/11/16/venice-flooding-reveals-a-real-hoax-about-climate-changeframing-it-as-eitheror/amp/

    https://water.usgs.gov/ogw/subsidence.html

    [This was probably caught in moderation because of the number of links you provided. When there are this many links readers will tend not to read them all so you can avoid moderation by limiting the number of links you include. just provide the two or three best examples. Thanks.] AZ

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Anyone remember voting for Scomo/Australia to commit to Agenda21/2030?

    “The SDGs (sustainable development goals) embody Australian values and our ambitions for our region: prosperity, stability and inclusivity.
    We joined with others to reaffirm our commitment to the UN’s 2030 Agenda at September’s SDG Summit.”

    https://unny.mission.gov.au/files/unny/151019_adoption_of_the_sdg_summit_political_declaration.pdf

    h/t: Malcolm Roberts

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    Slithers

    Wake Up Italy!
    All it will take, now you have access to larger ships, by dredging the channel from the Adriatic; is a North Westerly storm and a Spring tide and good-bye Venice.
    You have let in the devil as well as all those tourists!

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    • #
      Greg in NZ

      An inconvenient truth about Italy completely ignored by one-eyed, one brain-celled, one-world propagandists:

      https://www.snow-forecast.com/whiteroom/cervinia-reports-2-4-metres-8-feet-of-snowfall-in-past-7-days-90cm-in-last-24-hrs/

      My trusty old Mac died last week so I’m on a borrowed Android tablet (insert expletives here * !) which is similar to the Giant Leap Backwards these incompetent nincompoops expect us to participate in.

      BTW, Tasmania’s Mt Mawson is STILL buried under snow today and our Alps are getting hammered by freezing snow blizzards… even just a little warming would be nice… in November.

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    • #
      Graeme#4

      Yes, the channel dredging through the outer islands barrier into the lagoon to increase cargo tonnage had proved to be a disaster for Venice. Also in the 60s, Venice drew far too much water from their underground aquifers, resulting in increased subsidence. They finally stopped this but the damage was done.

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      • #
        Another Ian

        Eric Newby has a chapter on Venice’s problems with trade and water in “On the Shores of the Mediterranean”, including the redirection of rivers etc over the years

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    Travis T. Jones

    We Finally Know What Happened When Voyager 2 Reached Interstellar Space -

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a29684597/voyager-2-interstellar-space-results/

    Voyager 1 and 2 launched in August and October of 1977, respectively, and set out to explore the far reaches of the solar system and beyond.
    The spacecraft have revealed a vast amount of insight into distant planets and snapped pictures of previously undiscovered moons.
    Still, more than 40 years after their launch, they continue to provide scientists with an unparalleled look at the universe.

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    Travis T. Jones

    We Likely Won’t Cut Carbon Dioxide Emissions 45 Percent by 2030

    The “New World Energy Outlook” report by the International Energy Agency suggests global warming is here to stay.
    https://reason.com/2019/11/13/we-likely-wont-cut-carbon-dioxide-emissions-45-percent-by-2030/

    The Paris climate agreement is at risk of falling apart in the 2020s
    https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/11/5/20947289/paris-climate-agreement-2020s-breakdown-trump

    >> Believers in doomsday global warming are humanely advised to see their doctor for an assisted suicide note to save the planet.

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    dinn,rob

    check it out–zerohedge–
    In the early 1990′s the Club Of Rome published a book called ‘The First Global Revolution’. In it they state:
    “In searching for a common enemy against whom we can unite, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like, would fit the bill. In their totality and their interactions these phenomena do constitute a common threat which must be confronted by everyone together. But in designating these dangers as the enemy, we fall into the trap, which we have already warned readers about, namely mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention in natural processes. and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy then is humanity itself.”
    The statement comes from Chapter 5 – The Vacuum, which covers their position on the need for global government. The quote is relatively clear; a common enemy must be conjured in order to trick humanity into uniting under a single banner, and the elites see environmental catastrophe, caused by mankind itself, as the best possible motivator. It also outlines the perfect rationale for population control – Mankind is the enemy, therefore, mankind as a species must be kept under strict supervision and his proliferation must be restricted.
    The Club of Rome and the UN agenda have always been intimately connected. In the 1990′s at the same time ‘The First Global Revolution’ was being published, UN assistant secretary general Robert Muller was publishing his manifesto which is now collected on a website called ’Good Morning World’. Muller argues that global governance must be achieved using the idea of “protecting the Earth” and environmentalism as the key components. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/globalists-openly-admit-population-control-agenda-and-thats-bad-sign

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    • #
      el gordo

      Chinese troops in civvies are voluntarily helping to clean up HK.

      10

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Now that’s frightening.

        20

      • #
        toorightmate

        I wonder what happens to those who don’t volunteer within the Chinese military?

        30

      • #
        el gordo

        So they get no credit from the rusted on, but diplomatically it looks good.

        Beijing will wait until the economy and civil society collapses, before they intervene to restore HK in their own image.

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      • #
        el gordo

        ‘Xi made clear the stance on the Hong Kong situation when speaking at the 11th BRICS Summit in Brasilia, Brazil. He said that ending violence and chaos and restoring order remain the most urgent tasks for Hong Kong.

        ‘Xi said the radical criminal acts taking place in Hong Kong have grossly trampled the rule of law and social order, seriously harmed the prosperity and stability of the special administrative region and severely challenged the bottom-line of the principle of “one country, two systems”.

        China Daily

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  • #
    dinn,rob

    plutonium news:
    5-10-17   Plutonium, one of the radioactive substances that may be present at the Hanford site, has a half-life of 24,000 years, meaning that’s how long it takes for half of the material to decay into more stable substances.  As such, it sticks around in the environment, and in the body, for a long time.
      Plutonium exposure can be very deadly for living creatures. A 2011 study in the journal Nature Chemical Biology found that rat adrenal-gland cells ferried plutonium into the cells; the plutonium entered the body’s cells largely by taking the natural place of iron on receptors. That study found that plutonium also can linger preferentially in the liver and blood cells, leaching alpha radiation (two protons and neutrons bound together).  When inhaled, plutonium can also cause lung cancer.    https://www.livescience.com/59042-how-does-plutonium-damage-the-body.html
    ……………………………………………………………..
    3-16-2011
      In the case of the Fukushima reactors, explosions have damaged the reactor buildings, allowing radioactive gases from the spent fuel pool to be released directly into the atmosphere….
      U.S. plants have the same key vulnerability that led to the crisis in Japan.  The basic problem is that the Japanese reactors lost both their normal and back-up power supplies, which are used to cool fuel rods and the reactor core.  The reactors had batteries that could supply power for eight hours until the back-up system or normal power supply was restored.  But officials were unable to fully restore either.  Most U.S. reactors are designed to cope with station power outages (where both primary and back-up power supplies are out) lasting only four hours. Measures that increase the chance of restoring power within that four-hour time period and provide better cooling options if that time runs out would make U.S. reactors less vulnerable….
      There are two leakage problems at the Indian Point nuclear reactor in New York, which some reports have confused.  First there is a small leak from one of the plant’s spent fuel pools.  This leak is not a problem; the plant is adding water to make up for the leaking water.  If there were a loss of power at the plant, this leak would only make things incrementally worse.  The real problem would be the water boiling off the surface of the spent fuel pool….
      The problem of overcrowded spent fuel pools can best be addressed by transferring the spent fuel to dry casks once it has cooled enough (see above).
    https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/fukushima-faqs  
    ……..
    11-10-19  Hans Kristensen and Matt Korda of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists:  “Nonetheless, additional plutonium will be required to produce warheads for missiles now under development, and India is reportedly building several new plutonium production facilities.”   https://www.yahoo.com/news/indias-nuclear-arsenal-keeps-growing-103000867.html
    ………………………………………..…….
      Pakistan is a nuclear weapon state outside of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.  It is believed to have about 120-130 nuclear weapons. Pakistan continues production of fissile materials for weapons.  As of the end of 2016, Pakistan had an accumulated stockpile estimated as about 280 kg of plutonium.  This plutonium has been produced at four production reactors in Khushab.  This estimate assumes that in 2016 Pakistan separated plutonium from the cooled spent fuel from Khushab-3 and Khushab-4 reactors, which began operating sometime in 2013 and in late 2014 or early 2015 respectively.  http://fissilematerials.org/countries/pakistan.html
    …………………………………………………….

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  • #
    Zigmaster

    Looking at the level of tension in these comments and the angst that Peter Fitzroy has stirred up . I don’t have any scientific credentials or achievements only 65 years of memory and an ability to analyse logically.
    If I wished to prevent a bushfire from potentially destroying my property would I clear a firebreak around it or would I just put up a windmill, solar panel or pay a carbon tax instead?
    No contest as to what is the right answer even Greenies have to concede that is of course unless they really are that stupid/ indoctrinated.
    Remember with all fires are created someone lights it or lightning may spark it, someone provides the fuel ( by allowing it to grow) and someone puts their lives in danger by being unable or willing to clear the land to make their property safe. I don’t see a coal fired power station doing anything other than providing cheap reliable energy to make people’s lives better.

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    • #
      PeterW

      Another question that I have yet to hear answered – without relying on speculative advances in technology that do not currently exist in cost-effective forms – is how they propose to stop CO2 rising.

      I say this on the basis that the world’s developing economies are growing at such a rate, and their use of fossil fuels is growing at such a rate, that anything Australia can do will not affect the future global temperature by a measurable amount….. even if AGW theory turns out to be correct.

      The increase – and it shows no signs of stopping – of CO2 production is Asia, Africa and South America is so great that if the entire OECD reduces its CO2 production to zero in the next 30 years , global production will continue to rise.

      In the absence of the kind of technology that is so speculative that it qualifies as sci-fi, we are still far from being able to run our industrial and transport systems on renewable energy, so zero CO2 will demand severe reductions of living standards for billions of people.

      We can’t even feed the world without fossil fuels. If the warmists can’t provide cost-effective alternatives, the Chinese and Indians (to name two growing economies) are not going to starve their people now to avoid some theoretical gain in the distant future.

      If CC is real, then we better be ready for it, because we can’t stop it.

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    • #
      yarpos

      He/she/they only causes angst amongst a few, He/she/they are however a dreary repetitive waste of time.

      40

  • #
    Hanrahan

    Is there a demographer in the house?

    I’m looking at a life expectancy chart

    https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/life-expectancy-death/deaths-in-australia/contents/life-expectancy

    and realised how little I understand it. If I pick my birth date on the X axis, the Y axis says my life expectancy would have been <60. Does the fact that I'm here annoying you well past my three score and ten mean that about 75% [guesstimate] of my classmates are dead? We were too young for Korea, too old for 'Nam so wars had nothing to do with this low figure. The Great War doesn't appear to have flattened the curve for men as one would expect

    Life expectancy of a girl born today is abt. 75. How do they know that, is it simple extrapolation?

    20

  • #
    WXcycles

    I decided the fluff on the fan blade is ultimately caused by climate-change due to my selfish mammalian need to keep cool. the dust is slowing the fan’s rotation speed while consuming more electrons to produce less cooling. The electric engine is also working harder and getting hotter thus leading to a spiral electron consumption-growth, further heating the planet, while expanding the CO2 generated to spin it. I’m feeling quite guilty about it all, so I’ve decided to drink one less caffè-mocha today as compensation for destroying the planet.

    50

  • #

    Huh! Nice to see that the Climate Crisis is taking effect on worldwide thinking, you know, shut it down or we all go extinct.

    World total energy consumption shows that the contribution from fossil fuels has risen to 81%, up by a full one percent from last year, and with a continuing upward trajectory.

    Oil consumption up.

    Natural Gas consumption up.

    Coal consumption up.

    Wind power – lip service.

    Solar power – lip service.

    Rooftop solar power – lip service.

    Electric vehicles – lip service.

    Carbon taxes – lip service.

    That lip service is really just wealth generation for all concerned in those sectors, wealth from we the people to line their own pockets.

    Fossil fuel reduction – lip service.

    I wonder how many Months that takes off our remaining twelve years of existence.

    Tony.

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    dinn, rob

    notice the plutonium danger!
    11-10-19 Hans Kristensen and Matt Korda of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists: “Nonetheless, additional plutonium will be required to produce warheads for missiles now under development, and India is reportedly building several new plutonium production facilities.” https://www.yahoo.com/news/indias-nuclear-arsenal-keeps-growing-103000867.html
    ………………………………………..…….
    Pakistan is a nuclear weapon state outside of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. It is believed to have about 120-130 nuclear weapons. Pakistan continues production of fissile materials for weapons. As of the end of 2016, Pakistan had an accumulated stockpile estimated as about 280 kg of plutonium. This plutonium has been produced at four production reactors in Khushab. This estimate assumes that in 2016 Pakistan separated plutonium from the cooled spent fuel from Khushab-3 and Khushab-4 reactors, which began operating sometime in 2013 and in late 2014 or early 2015 respectively. http://fissilematerials.org/countries/pakistan.html

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  • #
    Brian

    Greens MP Adam Bandt has convinced me. If we disband the volunteer rural firefighting services and put the money into rooftop solar then there will be no more bushfires and unicorns will gambol through the lush forests.

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    • #
      yarpos

      cut and paste from an article running now at the Catallaxy Files

      “Bandt is the most soft-handed waste of space you could imagine. There’s blokes you would ring if you were in a scrape, and then there’s Adam Bandt, the polar opposite of the King Gee guy, whom if you rang to lend a hand would be over in a jiffy, to make you some yoghurt.

      This dweeby Melbourne academic spent much of last weekend revving up his base with accusations of bloodshed towards the Prime Minister. Not since the actor Sean Penn paddled around New Orleans in circles in a row boat after Hurricane Katrina has one progressive done so little to help so many. “

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  • #

    Winter snow arrives at the High Atlas in Morocco from a storm on the 11th November.
    And the Mayor of Venice believes that this cold plunge of arctic air into the Mediterranean is a tropical storm.
    Tunisian National Institute of Meteorology 15Nov19

    00

  • #
    el gordo

    Scafetta et al has a new paper out, looking at TSI and a quiet sun.

    https://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/11/21/2569

    10

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  • #
    Hanrahan

    We need a whip around to upgrade this site. ATM it is like a centipede that has tripped.

    No criticism Jo just an observation.

    10

  • #
    Richard Ilfeld

    Guns are protected, because experience tells us that from time to time
    the civil protection of our rights from government tyranny fails and requires
    physical reinforcement.

    This protection of the ultimate rights of the individual was deemed worth the risks.

    If we are to reprise the debate, we should debate the proper subject. The state is
    granted, by “the consent of the governed” a monopoly on force. This is to maintain order in those hopefully
    rare cases where civil cooperation fails and civil coercion is required.

    Sometimes those who govern turn out not to be the angels of benign public spiritedness and generosity we would wish.
    We require a means to take back the power we have mistakenly granted them.

    This is the right for a citizen to retain ownership of a firearm.

    40

    • #
      Kalm Keith

      “This is the right for a citizen to retain ownership of a firearm.”

      In the USA.

      I agree, if the other 5 kids had their guns in their school bags probably they would have been O.K..

      It’s just the other 8 caught in the cross-fire that’s the problem.

      New York is the role model of public safety.

      KK

      00

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    Carp

    What about Switzerland?

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  • #
    robert rosicka

    Possibly OT even for unthread but when bogans get together for a few frothies sometimes the big problems of the world are solved .
    One mate went to crack a tinnie and the pull tab broke ,another gave him this dare –
    Can you open the can using a loaf of bread , this turned into a slab bet .
    I was starting to think this was getting weird and stupid even for us but to my surprise apparently you can open a can of beer with nothing more than a loaf of bread , science can be a wonderful thing if not slightly weird .

    10

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    el gordo

    Anti wind campaign in Germany makes an impact, surely this is the end.

    https://www.thegwpf.com/german-anti-wind-revolt-sparks-collapse-in-construction/

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    Annie

    I can’t believe I’m writing this, but I have just enjoyed an article out of The Guardian (UK)! It was mentioned in comments in The DT (UK) so a quick look was called for. It is actually an article about Christmas catering by Jay Rayner and is very droll; what is more, so are many of the comments. A bit of cheerfulness for a change, after all the miserable stuff about banning this, that and t’other, especially Christmas.
    Christmas, my absolutely favourite time of the year :) :) :)

    00

  • #
    Michael262

    PeterW
    It’s been shown that the reduction in firearms has had a corresponding reduction in deaths, particularly from suicide, not a good thing?. Your own link quashes your last assertion.and Johnnie wasn’t a socialist. The NRA pushes the same misinformation,and what a gun utopia the US is.
    You do have to be a quacking conspiracy theorist to believe your statement.

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  • #
    OriginalSteve

    In London, the homicide rate is higher than New York. Londoners prefer knives it seems…..

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  • #
    Sambar

    Michael I think your statement is only partially correct. Yes there appears to be a drop in firearms related suicide, however the over all suicide rate has not altered very much at all. Sadly about the same amount of people still take this course, just choose a different method.

    30

  • #
    PeterW

    Michael…..

    No.

    The trend of declining firearms violence was established well before 1996, and has continued without any significant response – either to the 96 confiscations, or the subsequent increase in firearms ownership. There are now more firearms in Australia than prior to 96.

    So it as not “been shown” in any study that does not carefully cherry-pick it’s evidence.

    As for claiming that the availability of just one method amongst the many – many equally lethal – has reduced suicide is to merely stupid, but callous.
    Firearms are not some magical object that possesses people against their will. That kind of ati-science stupidity should be beneath you. Nor are suicidal people stupid. We know the difference (i say “we”, because I’ve been uncomfortably close, in the past) between lethal and recoverable methods.

    We are HURTING, not STUPID. It is callous and unfeeling in the extreme to pretend either that removing just one method solves the problem, or that people who use other methods are somehow less dead,

    Playing that game does not make you caring. Quite the opposite.

    Thankyou fo mentioning the NRA….. it just identifies you as an ideologue who can’t argue from evidence. Even the Democrats privately admit that the strength of the NRA lies in its evidence.
    1. The US has seen its homicide rate drop by 50% over the last 25 years, while the number of firearms in private hands has hit record levels.
    2. Analysed demographically, those parts of he US population owning the most legal firearms are low-crime, while those with the highest levels of homicide have low rates of legal firearms ownership.
    3 . Analysed geographical, those jurisdictions with the most severe firearms restriction in the US have the highest violent crime rates, all other things being equally.
    4. Mexico, just across the border, has tighter gun laws than Australia and a higher violent crime rate than the US. Several times higher. (And before you start, most of Mexico’s guns come from Asia, the middle-east and South America)
    5. The US is actually below average for homicide rates…. almost all those nations with higher homicide rates having the kind of strict controls that Australia has.
    6…. Before you start banging on that the high homicide-rate nation’s are all “third world”, that is (a) an admission that culture and economics drive homicide, not firearms; and (b) those same cultures and economics just happen to be typical of the high-crime areas in the US.
    7…. No, the US is not unique in “mass murders”, either. Careful analysis of what statistics are available show that the US is below average in that category, too. You’ll have to cherry-pick something else.

    Back to Australia…. not very long ago, two thugs who had an eight year record of preying on isolated rural properties, used a banned firearm to resist arrest (trying to kill the a Policeman and riddling his car) just around the corner from my home. They abandoned their car and took to the bus right next to the home of a cousin of mine with a young family. Yet if either he or I had kept a loaded shotgun handy over the next couple of weeks, we would have been breaking the law.
    Eight bloody years those scum were on the wanted list, but the Police were wasting time (their words) doing useless compliance checks on people like me who aren’t the problem.

    Yes….. I’m angry. I’m angry because neither you nor John Howard reallycared enough about public safety to do the sums and look for genuinely cost-effective strategies. I’m angry because I had to sit in a public meeting and listen to my local member – Tim Fischer – tell his constituents that if we didn’t stop arguing in our own defence, they would make it worse for us.. I don’t care what you say, Howard and Fischer were a pair of political bullies who demonised a law-abiding minority so that they could pose as “doing something”.

    It’s not about my tools. It’s about a denial of justice. It stinks.

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    Kalm Keith

    Michael,

    You’re now getting what’s called a “taste of your own medicine”.

    “You do have to be a quacking conspiracy theorist to believe your statement”. This applies to your comments regarding Man Made Global Warming. Now you have to face the same.

    Extremism doesn’t help in either area.

    KK

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  • #
    Michael262

    NYC is now gentrified, used to be much higher.
    Do you want to see what the knife wielding Londoners will do if you give them guns ?.

    15

  • #
    PeterW

    Original Steve…

    To make their case, the gun-grabbers have to pretend that knife victims are less dead, or their deaths don’t matter as much.

    People who actually care about saving lives know that a murder is a murder….. and no-one is comforted by being informed that their loved one was only stabbed to death instead of shot. Or that they died on their own, instead of in a group.

    When 80% of Australia’s murders involve something other than a firearm, we don’t have a gun problem, we have a crime problem.

    40

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    Kalm Keith

    Steve,

    The USA has just had another “incident” at Santa Clarita in California, six young people shot.

    My wife and I stayed in New York for over a week in 2009 and felt very safe.

    The reason we felt safe was that someone, maybe a politician, associated with that city had said “enough” and did what was necessary to clean the place up.

    That’s the model. The problem is that politicians in other places are too busy filling their pockets to bother looking after public safety.

    Making a comparison between London and New York probably suggests that you haven’t been to New York since it was fixed.

    It seems that having an armed policeman on every street corner, judges and magistrates intent on making the community safe and gaols full of criminals, does work.

    Our politicians have made Australia a worse place to live over the last 50 years and it is routine to hear of shooting incidents in our larger cities and gangs roaming free to terrorise innocent people in their homes and suburbs ; Melbourne.

    When governments create situations like Melbourne maybe guns are justified because society has ceased to function.

    The emotional toll on police trying to make sense of this weird situation must be immense. Judges too often overlooking the needs of the community at large to create a merciful politically woke aura to impress their peers and comrades.

    The gun debate always needs to keep the main target in mind.

    KK

    50

  • #
    beowulf

    And acid . . . don’t forget the acid attacks. London leads the western world in stabbings and disfigurement.

    10

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    Michael262

    Guns are quick and certain, not something to have in the house

    15

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    OriginalSteve

    Youre missing the point – London which effectively has a gun ban has a higher murder rate than gun-soaked New York.

    Cleay, guns are not the issue.

    Gun control is a socialist nonsense which is about control, not safety. Gun registration is about planned confiscation, not about safety. There are now more guns in Australia than pre port arthur gun control laws. Clearly Australians like firearms and can be trusted, but Leftists want to monster the population, based on history, so love gun control. Cities in the USA like chicago with strictest gun control laws have highest levels of gun crime…..fail.

    50

  • #
    PeterW

    Michael….

    When any Londoner – even an insane one – could walk in off the street and buy a rapid-fire, multiple-shot cartridge firearm……. the firearms homicide rate was amongst the lowest in the world.

    One of those who analysed British firearms crime over a century of progressively strict firearms control was Police Inspector Colin Greenwood. After a colleague was shot and killed in the line of duty, Greenwood took a sabbatical in order to study firearms in order to make a case for the kind of laws that he believed would have saved his friends life.

    Instead, he came to the conclusion that a century of firearms control had resulted in a marked increase in firearms crime.

    To pick some examples.
    The general control of and requirement for registration of handguns was followed by an increase in their use in crime.
    Mandatory safe-storage laws were followed by an increase (roughly double) of firearms use by criminals.
    Registration of shotguns was followed almost immediately by a doubling in their use in crime, too.

    The conclusion is unavoidable. Criminals are not affected by gun controls, and the propaganda associated with increased gun-regulation convinces criminals that firearms are more desireable.

    If you actually want to do some more reading – which I doubt. Ideologies never do – you might also try the work of criminologist Joyce Lee Malcolm. Malcolm analysed historical violent crime data from before the firearms era , right through to the present. Her conclusion was that as firearms became more available and more user-friendly …… violence dropped in Britain. It only started to rise again as gun-control became more stringent.
    That’s a very inconvenient correlation for your theory.

    50

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Says who?

    00

  • #
    yarpos

    Unless you want to defend yourself of course

    00

  • #
    PeterW

    Michael…..

    If you think that guns are “quick and certain”, explain to us why 90% of firearm injuries are non-fatal. That IS around the magnitude of the statistic.

    You’ve been getting too much of your information from watching Hollywood.

    20

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    Dennis

    During the 1990s I was on a business trip and arrived in England just before an Easter weekend, and agreed to stay where a colleague had been born and to meet his family. I spent hours one evening talking with a drug enforcement officer attached to Scotland Yard but often sent overseas on surveillance duties, he was a former SAS officer before being recruited by the Police. And not long after that time he lost his life working somewhere in the world.

    The point is the UK and guns. At the time UK Police were arguing about a proposal for all of them to carry a gun on duty and apparently the no side was loudest, them preferring to continue with the specialist rapid response armed units. My friend said that they are naive and that since joining the EU people brought guns into the UK in their vehicles via car ferries. He said the officers are clueless about how many illegal guns are held by criminals.

    40

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    toorightmate

    OriginalSteve,
    You must be wrong.
    We have very strict drug controls and just look at how well that is working.

    30

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    Hanrahan

    In London knives are the weapon of choice but even more terrifying are the acid attacks.

    The Mayors of big cities have significant influence on the prevalence of crime. In NY both Gulianni and Bloomberg were tough, gave the cop on the beat “stop and search” powers. They were an assault on “rights” and libertarians hated them but they worked.

    30

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    yarpos

    which was meant to be a response to #37

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    PeterW

    Yarpos.

    The point of my reminiscence was that it was illegal for us to keep a loaded firearm available to defend ourselves. Self-defence is technically legal, but the legal theory is that if you have time to prepare for it, you have time to call the Police.

    John Howard specifically insisted that self defence was not a reason to own a gun…… while surrounded and protected by men with guns. Go figure.

    I can keep 9ne with me to defend my sheep from predators, but not to defend my life.

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    robert rosicka

    Well said Peter W , agree completely.

    20

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    Kalm Keith

    Tooright.

    You’ve hit the nail on the head.

    We have lots of laws: the politicians make 5 new laws every day to get headline publicity for the next election.

    There is however No Enforcement, so people think that the law is a joke and they can do what they want.

    We have a serious political problem and I hate to think of teachers having to live in an environment where every second child in the school is “carrying” the latest Glock Mini.

    11

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    That’s the answer, a fully functioning system of Law and Order and punishment that deters.

    In Australia there’s only a token law and order system that has failed the public.

    20

  • #
    yarpos

    If you live in a rural area you know what calling the police means.

    If I have to defend me and mine the only rules are my rules, then “the law” can do what it wants with me.

    30

  • #
    Annie

    We would be lucky to see the police within the hour around here…they are spread much too thinly.
    Years ago I nearly ran into a ton or more of Hereford beef on the hoof at Narbethong, late at night. Fortunately it wasn’t Black Angus!
    It was in the days before mobile ‘phone so I had to wait a while before I could report it as I had no idea where its home was, no lights to be seen around. I rang the police number and it was answered by someone in Albury who had absolutely no idea where Narbethong was (indeed, still is!)!

    40

  • #
    yarpos

    ad once again Reply seems not to work, #60 was a response to Peter at #56

    10

  • #
  • #
    beowulf

    That was a reply to #40 that went haywire.

    00

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