JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Farmers jammed between an inferno and a trip to jail – remember Maxwell Szulc?

In NSW fires continue to burn, and with more hot weather is forecast. Some farmers are burning off for themselves, not waiting to be saved by a bucket of rain from a plane. There’s a total fire ban in NSW, so this is very much illegal, highly risky, and 5 months (or 5 years) too late. Desperate and dangerous. A dire situation.

As a signpost on the Road to Madness, its time the whole nation heard of Maxwell Sculz

Here in Westernistan Australia, in 2011 Szulc cleared a firebreak on his own land, and the government put him in jail. He didn’t start any fires, or put anyone at risk — he cleared a 20 wide break through scrubby regrowth on his own land, and they sent him to jail for 15 months. No heritage trees were destroyed, no rare orchids went extinct. It had all been cleared back in 1983 and regrown. His property was next to state land and he wanted to reduce the fire risk. He’d been ordered in court to fill in forms and ask permission. But it was his land, he felt that was wrong, so he cleared it. His action was both as a farmer and as a protest — an act of civil disobedience. For that, he earned a short mention on an ABC page once, was not nominated for a Nobel or an Oscar, and the UN didn’t ask him to dinner.

Meanwhile in NSW this week:

‘Locked up and forgotten’: Farmers taking fire management into their own hands

 Peter Hannam, Sydney Morning Herald

Desperate farmers are doing their own back-burning to protect their land from bushfires, prompting the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party to draft laws to allow farmers to do controlled burns in national parks.

Shooters’ MLC Robert Borsak will introduce a bill to NSW Parliament next week that would give farmers the power to conduct “small controlled burns” if their property adjoins public lands.

The proposed bill comes as the NSW Rural Fire Service (RFS) concedes farmers in bushfire-ravaged parts of the state may have been doing their own back-burning.

The most desperate farmers were the ones living next to National-Fuel-Parks, the kind being un-managed by governments:

Mr Borsak said farmers living next to state land were desperate to protect their property, with “millions of hectares of national park … locked up and forgotten”. “The national parks are not being properly managed,” he said. “

There’s no chance the government will let farmers back burn public land.

… the government, …says hazard reduction is a complex task that requires significant planning.

A spokeswoman for Emergency Services Minister David Elliott said: “The NSW Rural Fire Service works in collaboration with partner agencies including NSW Parks and Wildlife on hazard reduction.

Adapted from my post on Szulc in 2013:

In Australia if you try to clear a firebreak on your land you could go to gaol

Maxwell Szulc, clearing firebreak, jailed.

Maxwell Szulc,

Some will say that Maxwell Szulc is technically not in jail for clearing his land, but for contempt of court. He deliberately went against a court injunction that forbid him from clearing more land. The innocent will wonder whether he should have filled in the management plan that the DEC asked him too. But this is the key. Szulc is a conscientious objector, and cleared the land as a protest against laws he sees as completely unjust. He felt it was his duty to protest.

Szulc believes that his land is his land, and that he should be able to manage it without asking permission from anyone. Those “management plans” sound innocent, but as other farmers (like Matt and Janet Thompson and Sid Livesey) have found out, the management plan is an insidious form of  creeping fascism.

Why should a landowner need to get permission to clear firebreaks on his own property? Land clearing is expensive, and top-soil in Western Australia is a precious commodity (we have the poorest and oldest soil in the world, and fertilizer costs money). No land-owner would want to overdo the clearing or lose that thin layer of top-soil. The owner stands to lose the most if the land is badly managed. That is the point of the free market and ownership by individuals.

Creeping quietly into fiefdoms where no one can afford to “offend” a bureaucrat…

In a western democracy we assume that it’s One Law for Everyone. But what if a government department made every business put in a separate management plan for approval? Isn’t that just fascism by any other name? The government department is then free to approve, deny or delay approval on a case by case basis. This pits individual farmers against the state and each other, and puts them under the direction of the state. Sure they “own” their land, but they have to do what the state says — that’s fascism, where the state allows private ownership but commandeers property at will (under communism you neither control nor “own” property). Corruption can’t be far behind.

If the bureaucrat doesn’t like the farmer, they can make life tough. They can selectively enforce the rules. Farmers know that, which is probably why they have been so silent as other individual farmers have either been jailed, or driven to bankruptcy by bureaucrats who don’t have to answer to anyone. Who wants to stick their heads up over this parapet?

Who stands up for them? Their ABC — the love media — agrees in spirit with everything the environment department does (unless it’s not “green enough”). The ABC are missing-in-action when it comes to standing up for the farmers who are forced to pay tax to keep the billion dollar big-government propaganda-machine running.

Read Maxwell Szulc’s story. – does anyone know where Maxwell is now?

There is no winning against the state: Matt and Janet Thompson  did the opposite to Szulc, they obeyed every rule, jumped through every hoop, and were still bled dry by bureaucrats, lawyers and banks, and lost their profitable business and life’s work. Szulc pushed back on principle, but spent 15 months in jail. Some choice.

Property rights helps to stop fires. It’s the collective-forests that are most at risk, and each decade farms are becoming more collectively managed (by the farmer, the EPA, the ABC, and the RBA? Who knows?) If you doubt that the ABC has some control over our farms, ponder how different it might be now in NSW if the ABC had picked up Szulc’s story  (as if he was as important as a 16 year old Swedish schoolgirl) and the nation had discussed property rights instead of advertising for solar panels?

h/t Dave B

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Rating: 9.8/10 (119 votes cast)
Farmers jammed between an inferno and a trip to jail - remember Maxwell Szulc?, 9.8 out of 10 based on 119 ratings

271 comments to Farmers jammed between an inferno and a trip to jail – remember Maxwell Szulc?

  • #
    John F. Hultquist

    In our county (Washington State, USA) the rural residents are allowed to cut, gather, and burn vegetation. Piles are not supposed to be more than a meter high, and not large. If more is needed the fire folks would like a notification so they are not called out for a non-wildfire. Good idea to let neighbors know, also. Staying with your fire and having water to control it is part of the deal.

    I had a very small fire going years ago with a calm wind. Ten minutes later the wind picked up to about 9 m/s.; by then I had my fire out. On separate occasions neighbors managed to catch trees on fire, and the fire folks had to come with a pumper truck.
    An alternative is to chip the material, then use or compost it.
    The county will take such material, compost it, and sell it to those in need. Sometimes homeowners get help from county and/or state agencies (our tax money at work) to “firewise” the property.
    More here in a news article from the local paper.

    190

    • #
      John F. Hultquist

      I just noticed it is Saturday morning where I am, and early Sunday in Perth. I check Jo’s site while having morning toast.
      So, greetings to all the folks still sleeping.

      160

    • #
      Bill in Oz

      For 12 years I managed an organic certified 60 ha farm here in the Adelaide Hills.
      One of the most useful farm tools we bought was a tractor operated flail mulcher.
      A huge brute of a machine made in the Netherlands I think.
      II could run it over regrowth with stems up to 3 inches thick
      All chipped up into mulch with small bits that broke down quickly.
      It allowed us the fire breaks we needed along road reserves,
      And property boundaries.
      I did a lot of it over those twelve years.

      110

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    These examples of “government” abuse of citizens are confirmation that Australia has lost the plot.

    It may seem paradoxical but the Australia of sixty years ago which was in some respects very disciplined and controlled was at the same time the most liberating.
    Ninety seven percent of criminals were in gaol and 97% of hazard reduction burns necessary, had been done.

    In 2019 the difference between right and wrong is blurred and highly flexible and governments do little except collect taxes from those still working and produce constant streams of media “information” to create the appearance of governance.
    Also, now living in a more sensitive world, 97% of criminals are no longer in gaol and 97% of hazard reduction burns have been postponed because of dangerous conditions.

    We have a serious problem with Government and our nation is not in a good way.

    KK

    550

    • #
      Michael262

      Livid Keith
      You’re fixated on ‘the good old days ‘ when you could clear fell everything and be commended for it. But today , we’re in a distopia with criminals everywhere and Marxist scientists running the shop. Have you got your AR15 yet?, oh, but that’s illegal too cause ‘jackboot Johnny ‘ said it was wrong to shoot people.
      Time to move on from your P51.

      [Michael262, all your comments will now be moderated (slowly) to stop you hijacking threads with off topic comments. - jo]

      143

      • #
        Yonniestone

        Do you live in a rural area Michael?

        110

        • #
          Michael262

          Yes, I do. I’ve seen a lot of precious topsoil fly past my windows!.

          216

          • #
            Yonniestone

            So you’d be ok with a local authority physically restraining you (police) from protecting or managing your property?

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            • #
              Michael262

              These arrests are a small diversion from AGW. Your willfully missing the much bigger picture of ongoing large scale land clearing impacting biodiversity, erosion and warming.

              231

              • #
                el gordo

                The precious top soil going past your windows is not a result of AGW.

                Its a natural cycle and ENSO is not only a temperature control knob, it also controls water vapour in Australia.

                190

              • #
                Yonniestone

                Answer the question Michael, the post is about legal action taken against people living in rural areas that refuse to comply with government imposed laws on private property.

                Again answer the question.

                170

              • #
                Michael262

                El
                Where have you been?.
                The topsoil loss is due to mismanagement and NOT a natural cycle. Deforestation is one aspect driving AGW , not your way round.

                024

              • #

                Michael262 — if you plan to hijack threads at the top best not turn up with misinformation.

                Australian land clearance has fallen dramatically since 1990. Indeed, per capita our carbon emissions fell 28% from 1990 – 2014, and most of that is due to changes in “land use, land-use change and forestry (LULUCF)” sector. If we don’t count the regrowth of scrubby trees and bush (all fireprone) our emissions per capita would have only fallen by 8%.

                Australia’s carbon emissions are calculated with satellite data that covers the Australian landmass down to 25m grid cells. Most of the land clearance stopped by the mid 1990s. Your propaganda is 25 years out of date.

                481

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                May as well wonder if AGW is driving the failure of California electricity to keep its power lines free of tinder/fuel??

                Would California electricity suppliers go to jail if they cleared fire hazards away from their electrical infrastructure??

                190

              • #
                Brian the Engineer

                Well I guess our per capita carbon emissions have gone back up again.

                60

      • #
        PeterW

        Do not lie, Michael.

        It was illegal to shoot people before Port Arthur.
        It was illegal for a Martin Bryant to own firearms before Port Arthur
        The failure was not in the legislation, but in authorities not enforcing the law.

        It does not require idiot conspiracy theories to note that this failure was never addressed, that no-one was every required to take responsibility. Instead, the million Australians who had owned firearms without causing a problem were scapegoated and vilified.

        There’s an interesting parallel with the current discussion of fires. Rather than take responsibility for the failure of government agencies to manage their area of responsibility, they are trying to blame everybody who isn’t lighting fires and isn’t negligently letting fuels build up…… for driving cars, using air-conditioning and generally living normal lives.

        Socialists never saw a problem they couldn’t solve with more regulation and more spending of Other People’s Money. If you you quack like a duck…….

        Oh…… and there was no detectable change in the long-term trends in firearms crime after the 1996 gun-grab. https://academic.oup.com/bjc/article-abstract/47/3/455/566026

        [No more discussion of gun control here. OT. All those comments have been moved to the Unthreaded. -Jo]

        380

      • #
        David Maddison

        Michael262 your arrogant and “know it all attitude” is a testament to the failure of our education system.

        Are you a Millenial? I’ll grant that you might not be because you seem to be able to spell which would be unusual for a Millenial. Nevertheless, your lack of critical thinking skills as evidenced by your unquestioning acceptance of everything fed to you by the MSM is alarming. You have obviously never looked at the actual raw historic temperature data or its geographic extent (or lack thereof) to have any clue about the truth.

        And no, we are not uneducated rednecks, but you are probably a badly educated Elitist.

        300

        • #
          Michael262

          David
          If the facts are too arrogant for you, then you are in trouble. I don’t get my science from the msm, but from the scientists themselves, try it yourself.
          I never implied you were all uneducated nednecks, just blinkered conspiracy theorists.
          Sorry, but I have a Chardonnay hangover and need a latte.

          133

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Dude…how little you know of us here by and large.

            Most of us here are educated and have oodles of common sense.

            The one thing thats difficult to stomach is the constant supply of unsubstantisted politically driven ( and therefore not science driven ) CAGW drivel.

            We love proof and science. Unless you can back it up, you have no case. Easy

            270

          • #
            Latus Dextro

            Michael262 stated: I don’t get my science from the msm, but from the scientists themselves, try it yourself.

            If that is genuinely the case, then cite your sources and reference your comments and give this community the opportunity to critically evaluate the literature for chance, bias and confounding.
            It’s should never be about the people but about the science. Unfortunately, Leftist Alinsky devotees, quite possibly like yourself, infused by the neo-Marxist trinity of identity politics, political correctness and cultural Marxism, unfailingly resort to personal attacks, barrages of ad hominems and logical fallacy, because the AGW contention is rooted in ideology not science, by among others, the explicit admission of UNFCCC Christiana Figueres herself. A cursory look at the UNFCCC definition of “climate change” and “climate variability” makes that abundantly clear.
            As for your pecksniffian, latté deprivation fuelled assertion that this community is, “just blinkered conspiracy theorists,” it serves to prove my point.

            101

        • #
          gee aye

          ad hom “elitist”. Will report soon

          017

      • #
        el gordo

        ‘ … we’re in a dystopia with criminals everywhere and Marxist scientists running the shop.’

        Our education system has been corrupted by pseudo Marxist school teachers and the climate science has been corrupted by grants. For the most part the MSM is the propaganda wing of the klimatariat and political correctness stifles debate.

        As a utopian socialist I demand an honest debate on weather and climate.

        230

      • #
        Tim Whittle

        If you chuck a Socialist or a Communist out the window, he’ll come back to the door as an Environmentalist.

        Heard it on the weekend. Truth.

        20

  • #
    graham dunton

    Jo,
    The latest to fallout from the loon bin!

    (SIC) As Queensland’s volunteer firies risk their lives in the worst bushfires in living memory, many face being banned from work if they don’t get this “ludicrous” paperwork in on time. (EQ)

    https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-government/new-rule-likely-to-ban-thousands-of-volunteer-firies/news-story/95b63af24ab2079a31ac86634308ffe1

    180

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      So not only have the gummint locked up the land, making it impossible to burn off, but now trying to stop firefighters from being effective?

      In terms of making sure fires are uncontrolled and can be blamed on “klimate khange” , it appears to be a systematic push to make it happen…….which speaks to a brutal push to enforce the CAGW lie.

      The thing is, people eventually will have had enough….

      150

      • #
        Graham Richards

        The more farmers they can drive off the land the more brownie points earned in their persecution of the Paris Accord.
        After all “Paris” advocates the reduction of agricultural activity particularly beef & dairy.
        I don’t think this is as far fetched as one might think.
        Why does the government cling to the Accord knowing full well that the majority want to see it rejected??

        30

    • #
      Another Ian

      There are some unanswered questions around blue cards as yet.

      There are two types of rural volunteer brigades:-

      Truck brigades which have official yellow trucks and whose members have to have blue cards – the captain of which is to order off anyone with a slip-on and no card

      Volunteer brigades whose members have “slip ons” – multi-coloured farm vehicles with tanks and pumps – members of which seem not to need cards. Do these blokes get ordered off if they turn up where there is a truck brigade at a fire even if they are from the neighbouring brigade?

      Then, if I am at a fire on my place with a slip-on and no card and the local yellow truck brigade turns up. Does that captain order me to p’off or do I order him?

      I suspect the practical answer will be that the bloke with a slip-on is a lot more use around a fire than a bloke waving a blue card – or a solar panel for that matter. And that the number of volunteers will be inversely proportional to the resulting bureaucracy.

      The urgency of the card is such that I’ve been waiting about two months for a re-issue which hasn’t turned up as yet Might it be an empire grab with inefficiency?

      150

    • #
      Serp

      Good ole news dot com firewall has beat me graham dunton but I get the drift…

      30

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    It even made sense to this guy …

    Man charged with lighting out-of-control NSW fire ‘to protect cannabis crop’

    “Police will allege in court the man lit the fire as an attempt at a backburn to protect a cannabis crop and made no attempt to control the blaze.”

    https://7news.com.au/news/crime/man-charged-over-out-of-control-nsw-fire-c-559717

    80

    • #
      PeterW

      I know I’m kicking against the tide, but it’s not a “Blackburn” unless it is lit to burn back TO an already existing fire.

      It is lit to remove the fuel from between whatever you want to protect (whether that is property or a control line ) and the already existing fire.

      Some years ago I was working on a large fire in a National Park north-west of Sydney. It’s difficult country and this fire was approximately 800 square km by the time we eventually got it under control. Pointing to one area where the established boundary of the fire adjoined a local village, my informant ruefully referred to it as “banjo country”. “Great people, but every time smoke goes up on the ridges above XXXXXX, there will be a string of fires along every back fence facing the Park…”

      THAT is backburning….. not pre-emotive Fuel Reduction in the absence of a threat.

      300

  • #
    PeterS

    Thanks Jo for bringing this little know fact to our attention. It convinces me Australia has lost the plot and is doomed to a crash and burn scenario unless a real leader comes to the scene and brings common sense back to the political arena. Morrison for example is a major disappointment and is fast becoming Turnbull 2.0 for a number of reasons. All our state governments are just as useless. We are heading over the cliff with much of the population fast asleep.

    350

    • #
      el gordo

      Morrison said there would be time later to debate “controversial issues”, because he is conscious that these bushfires are not related to AGW.

      If Beijing was running the show they would send in the troops to reduce undergrowth that threatened lives and property, but we can’t do that in a democracy.

      So Morrison will stick with his game plan, raising dam walls in preparation for floods beginning this time next year.

      81

      • #
        PeterS

        Morrison is locked into a leftists policy of continual emission reductions to make an appearance we are doing our bit to tackle the climate change crisis, be it real or not, to satisfy the increasing concerns of climate change. As a consequence they are too chicken even to suggest we should build more coal fired power stations let alone announce a policy to support them financially. Those who expect the LNP to do otherwise are dreaming. So it matters not who is in government. It would be nice if voters woke up and rejected both major parties and ended the CAGW scam by not allowing either major party to form a major government and vote for the likes of ON to come into the picture and make one of the the majors change their tune on a number of fronts, such as the way we manage our forests if they wanted to form government. It’s our only hope. It’s all up to the voters. It’s not looking good though thanks to the increasing amount of disinformation being propagated by the our education system, MSM, ABC, ALP, Greens and even some in the LNP. They are all helping more and more people who are not sure to be swayed to the CAGW story. Then again we can hope Australians are not that stupid and aware of the con but it’s not a given that’s for sure. It’s clear watching Sky News that more and more people are concerned about climate change in spite of the effort of some there to fight it. Note this is not unique to Australia. It’s happening through much of the Western world. I tend to think it’s a result of the growing spread of fake news and dummying down by our education systems. Still it remains to be seen how voters react at the next election as that’s the real litmus test. It will be very telling.

        170

        • #
          el gordo

          Rohan Dean gave Jo a big h/t this morning, the Bob Fearnley-Jones thread on adjustments.

          All we can do is continue our quest and don’t despair, enjoy the moment, you are in the right place and time in Australia’s political history.

          71

          • #
            PeterS

            The NSW energy and environment minister announced today they are committed to replacing our coal fired power stations with renewables because the latter today provide cheaper, sustainable and reliable power. When an LNP government states that we have lost the plot for sure. I believe the Morrison government is of the same mindset. So no we are not in the right place and time of Australia’s political history. We are heading down into the abyss.

            110

            • #
              el gordo

              Okay, then we’ll need to fall back on a nasty change in the weather to end the malaise.

              10

            • #
              Serp

              The minister cannot substantiate use of the term “reliable” when referring to renewable energy generation but because the fix is in nobody will impugn the statement; true indeed PeterS, next stop the abyss.

              60

          • #
            Sceptical Sam

            Jo is. Yes.

            The country certainly is not.

            30

      • #
        Beertruk

        If Beijing was running the show they would send in the troops to reduce undergrowth that threatened lives and property, but we can’t do that in a democracy.

        The ADF will most likely have personnel (soldiers) in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and Townsville who are on standby to go off and fight fires. However they will not be deployed unless the authorities in charge fighting the bushfires specifically request them. The officer in charge of the standby firefighting team can call team in to be ready to deploy but if he/she decides to go off their own bat and deploy, they will be in for a ‘major backside kicking.’ I saw that happen to a Captain in the early eighties. I think he remained a Captain for a long time in his career.

        20

  • #
    Bite Back

    Shooters’ MLC Robert Borsak will introduce a bill to NSW Parliament next week that would give farmers the power to conduct “small controlled burns” if their property adjoins public lands.

    Wouldn’t it be the smarter thing to do if no one was trying to sequester carbon (dioxide) in all that overgrown brush to meet a treaty obligation that provably saves nothing anyone will ever notice, much less be able to even measure. Shades of Peter Spencer… :-(

    If I can read Joanne Nova and understand the problem, why can’t your government? The innumeracy on display is spectacular. Worse, does anyone from the treaty member organization ever come in and measure the carbon so sequestered to assure compliance? I bet not.

    130

    • #
      PeterW

      I’m going to keep saying it. Every major inquiry into Australian bushfires for the last 80 years has concluded that we aren’t doing enough fuel reduction.. Usually it needs to double, at a minimum.

      Part of the problem is budgetary.
      It is cheaper to make more National Parks than it is to manage them. Most of them are created by Labor/Greens to appease voters who don’t have to live with the problems of fire, weeds and pests….. but Labor is reluctant to allocate budgets when the money would have to come from vote-buying social programs for the FSA (Free Stuff Army)

      It is politically easier to vote money to Emergencies and Big Shiny Toys than it is to vote it to everyday maintenance that gets no headlines and little attention except from those who get their panties in a twist because smoke smells and temporarily-blackened bush isn’t pretty.

      It’s cheaper to use volunteers who work for free, than fund the Land Management Agencies to employ a firefighting capacity commensurate with the area and risk they have.

      “Climate Change” is just the excuse. Mild seasonal burning is CO2 neutral and they know it.

      340

      • #
        StephenP

        It looks as if Australia will finish up in an endless cycle of build-up of flammable material which locks up CO2 which is ignited by a lightening strike and releases the CO2 back into the atmosphere.
        A kind of dynamic equilibrium with the added excitement of not knowing when or where the fires will happen.

        80

        • #
          WXcycles

          It looks as if Australia will finish up in an endless cycle of build-up of flammable material which locks up CO2 which is ignited by a lightening strike and releases the CO2 back into the atmosphere.

          Easily circumvented via State Governments’ legislating to ban electrons. If you can eliminate carbon from carbon-based lifeforms you can eliminate electrons from solar panels and thunderstorms. No one said saving the world from catastrophic bush fires would be easy. We should also rethink the use of water on fires, as water contains both combustible hydrogen and oxygen, which is just asking for trouble.

          80

      • #
        Bite Back

        Budgetary? And when they count the dead, when they add up the property damage, when they add up the cost of running from fire out of control while pretending to have the situation in hand, which side of their ledger do they put those numbers on? Your government and mine both think we are not worth their time and effort to protect from foreseeable and manageable danger. They would rather be making sure their standing with the rest of the world measures up. They would rather be well thought of by the government of some banana republic than by the citizens they are elected to serve.

        Don’t excuse away what’s happening. They will only change if you make them change. Why are you not an angry mob armed with clubs, picks and shovels pounding on the doors of the halls of government at every level demanding change OR ELSE? And mean OR ELSE. You have tremendous power if you act together. Corruption depends on your explaining that it’s cheaper to create more national parks and then waiting quietly for someone else to start something.

        I see it where I live (United States), I see it where you live and I see it everywhere, government only gets the job done right if the governed holds their feet to the fire. So why aren’t you doing that? Look up Peter Spencer. He was going through the same thing, in trouble for clearing is own land, now it’s Maxwell Sculz. What has changed in all the time between these two men? Nothing. You have got to get angry enough to act instead of talk.

        60

  • #
    Another Ian

    IIRC Re bureaucrats and farmers in WA
    there was that family who tried to start a feed lot but didn’t bow to CAGW

    40

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      : Matt and Janet Thompson

      See Jo’s 2nd last para.

      10

      • #

        Yes, all was going well for Matt and Janet and the EPA was happy with them until they spoke out publicly against carbon credits and showed they were skeptics. AFter that the EPA added 33 unfulfillable requirements, cut their cash flow from black to just in the red, and kept promising them it would be resolved, but slowly bled them dry, never allowing them to return to profit. The farm was foreclosed, the family of six went back to the US having lost all the capital they came ot Australia with and ten years of hard work too.

        Their feedlot farm was set up next to an established piggery, but they were suddenly limited in allowed animals “because of the smell”. But the data showed most days the smell was undetectable in the town nearby, and when there were complaints, they didn’t correlate with more cows. Many complaints came from people who moved to a new property development that arrived after the farm, and DEC actively fished for complaints after the Thompsons spoke out about climate change. There were very few complaints until DEC got active.

        It was awful to watch, and WA lost exactly the kind of entrepreneurs and great citizens that we ought be encouraging.

        The WA Dept of Env admitted they did not follow due process with the Thompsons.

        340

        • #
          robert rosicka

          Has happened here as well in Victoriastan, one case was a wagu breeder that neighbouring farms after being split and subdivided the new houses complained about the old farm and I believe they were forced to stop the feedlot side of the business .
          The other better known example was the ex liberal Sophie Mirabella and husband who bought acreage adjoining a proposed feedlot ,the feedlot bought all the land surrounding the area and made the mistake of selling off a few not needed parcels with the caveat that a feedlot would be built next door .
          The Mirabellas then bought and built just before the application went to council for the feedlot .
          Feedlot was refused a permit so many potential jobs vanished , this is just one reason why Sophie had no chance of being voted back in .
          The joke of a husband ended up on (I) think the Australian livestock council .
          The price they would have paid for the land would have been way below market because of the impending feedlot so they made a fortune .

          90

          • #
            Serp

            Greg Mirabella campaigned unsuccessfully against Sarah Henderson for Fifield’s vacated Senate seat earlier this year.

            I hadn’t realized until reading your comment (for which I thank you robert rosicka) re the “joke of a husband” what a bizarre dilemma confronted the preselection committee having to choose between the pseudo-green and the “joke” who I cannot accurately describe without libel hazard to the site’s host.

            10

        • #
          JohnM

          Hi JoNova,
          I’ve hesitated to comment because the abuse of power against individual farmers/ranchers in Australia is an issue for all Austrailians.

          Yet, I discovered significant Australia land ownership by UK, Chinese, etc. interests which makes the abuses an International investment concern.

          Are these abuses solely directed at small farmers/ranchers like the Thompson family feedlot tragedy?

          I’m still disheartened, the Thompson harassment included interfering with their mail delivery. Janet had to drive twice to her local post office to finally receive a grocery gift card I’d sent the family for Christmas.

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            Kalm Keith

            I guess what you are asking is whether the petty bureaucrats who over-enforce the “law” or rules, are game to take on the big ones.

            Answer’s probably going to be no isn’t it.

            Fair go is only a phrase used by politicians during election campaigns.

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              JohnM

              Hi Kalm,
              I’m unable to judge land ownership issues in Australia; I’m an American.

              The legal Rights that run with land ownership in the US are very specific and include the right to quiet enjoyment. No trespassing on private property and a bench warrant is required for authorities to step foot on private property without the owners permission.

              These Rights were under assault during the Obama terms in office. Absurd changes to the Clean Water Act is an example.

              There has also been an assault on small farmers/ranchers in favor of large Corp. interests.

              Large Corp. owners have the capital to fight issues in the court system and can lobby government.

              Having said this, if the large Corp. farms band together with smaller ag. Interests as a group in Australia, they’d have a shot at real and meaningful change.

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                Mark D.

                JohnM, unfortunately there are several “authorities” that can legally enter private property without a warrant. In Minnesota (and I believe most States) the DNR authorities can walk right in and search for illegally possessed game. Further, they can confiscate a vast list of items if you are found to be in possession of illegal game.

                Second, building inspectors can enter if they believe building work requiring a permit is being done.

                Third, property tax assessors’ representatives can enter property to obtain information about the condition and features that affect value.

                In most cases it is against the law and a separate offense for a property owner to impede the above above “officials” doing their jobs.

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                JohnM

                Mark D.,
                There are exceptions. Police can trespass if there’s “reasonable cause”. Reasonable Cause applies to your examples as well.

                The point I was making, as an American I can’t judge the specific issues in Australia. Land ownership, the rights that run with it, legal recourse etc. are complex issues.

                But I can point to similar abuses in the US.

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                JohnM

                I love Minnesota!!

                Enjoy:
                If We Had Some Global Warming – The Global Warming Song
                https://youtu.be/rQhHRt8pMS4

                Minnesotans For Global Warming
                https://m.youtube.com/user/M4GW

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                JohnM

                Mark,
                It’s the 10th anniversary ClimageGate.

                Humor is required

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    Not much different to that chap in Victoristan where the shire forbade clearing of roadsides as well as people’s properties. This chap cleared trees regardless and saved his home in the 2003 fires while everyone else’s burned to the ground. The shire naturally took him to court.

    Victoria has some of the most rabid Green councils on the planet, allowing no sensible fire prevention and almost acting in a criminally negligent manner when it comes to such things. But the councils maintain their insane policies even after the 2009 fires and would do so if their shire became a blackened spot, such is the insanity of the Greens.

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      OriginalSteve

      Its time to start taking some othe rabid greenie councils to court over endangering of human life.

      Now i realise greenists hate humans, but the law is against them for this, so….

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    David Maddison

    In Queenslandistan, this farmer was fined $1 million for making a firebreak that was too wide.

    The incompetence and/or destructive desires of politicians, public serpents and Greens who facilitated this is staggering and they must be held personally to account.

    https://www.beefcentral.com/news/qld-landholder-hit-with-record-1m-penalty-for-making-fire-breaks-too-wide/

    How wide can a fire-break be in Queensland?

    Getting the answer wrong, despite receiving conflicting advice from several different Queensland Government staff, has just resulted in a Queensland landowner being forced to pay $999,780 in fines and costs.

    That figure – a record since Queensland’s Vegetation Management Act came into effect in 1999 – incorporates a $276,000 fine and an order to pay the Government $723, 780 in costs.

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      Ross

      I’m not sure how it could happen David, but it seems to me that a number of the Government employees or Departments contacted by the farmer at various stages of the process should be held liable –especially those who OK’d his plan before he started the process.

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    David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

    Morning Jo,
    I’ve tried on several occasions to reply to Peter Hannam via a letter to SMH, always unsuccessfully, but have had a couple published in The Land, NSW’s weekly agricultural newspaper, which gives me some hope.
    I’d given up hope that my last letter was going to be published at all when I was pleasantly surprised to find this in The Land in Thursday’s edition (November 14, 2019), on page 28, under the heading “QUESTIONABLE CLAIM”. The caps are theirs. Sorry, no link. I buy the hard copy each week.
    It’s not quite in it’s “as-sent form”, with modifications for style and a couple of my more aggressive sentences removed (I think validly), but the gist is there.
    To me it’s doubly significant. It shows that The Land is permitting differing views, and also that I
    personally have not been excluded.
    I hope it produces some discussion.

    In his article “Ag leaders sign breakthrough climate plan” on page 13 of the edition of Thursday October 31, Mike Foley wrote ” “The science on climate change is clear and we’ll work with farmers and their communities to mange the risks it poses to our agricultural sector,” Ms Symes said. “, (Jaclyn Symes being the Victorian Agriculture Minister).
    Since the subject of climate is quite large and some aspects are still unknown (for example the precise effects of, and causes of sunspots) or difficult to quantify and forecast, I find her statement difficult to accept. After about 15 years of looking I’ve still not seen any sort of proof that the basic proposition, – that CO2 is a major cause of global warming – is true. I further suggest that any agriculture plan based on the United Nation’sIntergovernmental Panel on Climate Change global warming scare is misplaced, scientifically wrong, a waste of scarce resources and completely counter productive.

    Dave Beach
    Cooyal.
    ….
    This is the first time anyone has published my direct challenge to the basic IPCC theme. Hannam won’t.
    Cheers
    Dave B

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    PeterW

    This is symptomatic of the socialist-green movement.

    Its members want the benefits (real or imagined) of extensive National Parks, “Climate Action” and the protection of the Freckle-Arsed Farting Frog (or whatever species they were using as their excuse du jour ) …. but they expect somebody else to pay for it.

    They want the warm fuzzies, but farmers and firefighters must take the risks. Productive industries must take the blame……. While those who voted for koala-roasting policies (and those who sat with their hands folded and let it happen on their watch – I’m looking at you, Greg Mullins) seek desperately to avoid accepting responsibility for their own actions.

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      OriginalSteve

      Part of Communism is to give low level agencies real power….this means dirt kicker agencies have dispropotionate power for thier roles. So now local govt with greenist lunatics in them can hit people with million dollar fines.

      The best way to purge councils of green lunatics is to sue them for negligence, especially with fire management issues…..

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    David Maddison

    In Victoriastan they’ve even banned people collecting firewood from many places. That provides fuel reduction for no effort by government or fire authorities whatsoever. (Not that Leftist governments want hazardvreductiom).

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    Sambar

    And of course we have that most peculiar situation where otherwise law abbiding citizens are penalized for doing the right thing while those who choose to break the law in many cases are let off scott free. We have animal activists that enter peopled property and steal animals, one such was fined $1.00 by the magistrate as their “cause” was deemed noble ! Protestors can illegally prevent whole populations from going about their lawful business by glueing themsevles to roads for days on end before any arrests are made. In victoriastan people opposed to logging can blockade, harass, threaten timber workers without fear of legal reprisal. All while the timer cutters are licensed by the state government and pay royalties for every log removed, provide jobs, and pay other taxes, then suffer very large losses without any compensation.
    Strange days indeed, most perculiar momma.

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      PeterS

      Not unexpected since the cancer of apathy has spread throughout much of the population. Thanks to a variety of reasons, not the least of which is our education system we have become a nation of non-thinkers.

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        David Maddison

        Most Australians are apathetic, but they don’t care…

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          PeterS

          Most Australians use the excuse they are too busy doing something else (work, sport, play, etc.) to be concerned about important issues like the ones discussed here. So they get the governments they deserve. I wish it was otherwise but we have gradually become a nation of non-thinkers.

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            WXcycles

            Most Australians use the excuse they are too busy doing something else (work, sport, play, etc.) to be concerned about important issues like the ones discussed here. So they get the governments they deserve. I wish it was otherwise but we have gradually become a nation of non-thinkers.

            Peter, I made this point in another way, recently.

            During periods of direct mortal conflict between combatants (not indirect as in random bombing or artillery) the weak, cowardly, unintelligent and incompetent, including mentally incompetence (due to bad ideas and/or bad-wiring) generally die faster than the opposites. At which point real leaders begin to emerge within the fighting force, and fight on from there in more successful and effective ways and command respect of subordinates, generally lift morale, lift motivation, increase trust and provide real organisation, planning and a ‘lead’ in sensible directions. Those leaders often successfully transition to become clear-headed political leaders within a democracy, not because they are good politicians, but because people will trust and follow them. They know this leader has the demonstrated raw ability to succeed, and is up-front with them when it’s needed, and will surround themselves with competent people who will follow the leader’s direction. That’s the best leader a country can hope for.

            Combative successful business owners can also do a fairly good job of becoming a good political leader.

            But during peace-time we get the accretion of endless fake professional small-L political ‘leaders’, who are mostly weaklings, more spineless, more dishonest, more cowardly, who generally use intelligence in counterproductive ways. They are supported just enough to be able to get away with being largely incompetent leaders (due bad ideas or bad-wiring). And who are less successful in general, who steal the credit from others, are less effective, command little to no respect, while generally damaging motivation and morale of the country as they destroy trust in leaders. They lie to the electorate as tactic on a routine basis and surround themselves with sycophantic bureaucrats who can’t or won’t do the job properly, but may make a good person to blame for failure to come.

            Australia has almost solely the latter variety of democratic political ‘leaders’. Following such poor political leaders into almost anything they want to do is usually going to produce poor to very poor results.

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              PeterS

              I also have noticed the LNP has very little vision. In fact I struggle to see if they ever had vision, at least since the Howard years. Even he lacked some vision. He wasted many opportunities to do great things for Australia at a time of great wealth during the commodity boom, opportunities that would have created even much more wealth. Perhaps that’s the real meaning of conservatism; do nothing and change nothing. However, it can be as bad as the alternative approach promoted by the ALP. Will we ever have a leader to make Australia great again? I doubt it.

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                Sceptical Sam

                The Importance of Doing Nothing.

                “In public affairs, as in private ones, there is a powerful compulsion to ‘do something.’ The problem on the Eastern Front was not really caused by inaction, but by Hitler’s desire to ‘do something.’ After the invasion and capitulation of France; and after the Battle of Britain, he found himself with time on his hands. Western Europe was buttoned up, from Poland to Spain; he was master of all and everyone. Only Britain held out. But he had not the means to invade Britain, so his eyes wandered across the map – as Napoleon’s had done many years before – and saw Russia.

                He would have been much better off staying home. Then, Stalin’s generals could have continued to bounce their mistresses on their knees, and hand out candy at birthday parties. Inaction would have begotten more inaction, in other words. And the world might have been a better place.”

                Bill Bonner:

                https://www.kitco.com/ind/bonner/printerfriendly/sep192005p.html

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              ivan

              WXcycles, that can be summed up by the simple statement …”Hard times create strong men strong men create good times good times create weak men and weak men create hard times”.

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        Latus Dextro

        we have become a nation of non-thinkers.

        I was particularly taken with Dr Jennifer Marohasy’s comment yesterday, ‘slogan thinkers’. It tends to fit the Alinsky axiom, ‘control the language you control the people‘ perhaps better than ‘non-thinkers’, though I agree, there does appear an over abundance of the latter.

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          el gordo

          The propaganda has been effective, ignore the planet and it will go away.

          Australians are thinkers who can be easily reeducated once we get the MSM onside.

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            Serp

            Sorry el gordo, “once we get the MSM onside” indicates that you have failed to recognize the face of the enemy; had you written “once we have destroyed the MSM” I could not demur.

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              el gordo

              The MSM has been self destructing since the start of the communications revolution. The print media and free to air TV are old hat and competition with all these new platforms puts them in a perilous state.

              This gives great advantage to the cultural Marxists at the ABC and they cannot be touched because their Charter allows them a free hand, without political interference.

              So the organisation needs to be reoriented internally, the Speers and Ita show, while externally the Murdochs will continue to ridicule.

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  • #
    nb

    We all did this to Szulc. Shocking.
    The ABC ceased to be a news organisation years ago. It is now merely a shameful propaganda arm of communism, and the jailing of Szulc is the kind of thing communists applaud.
    Government is increasingly oppressive.

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      PeterS

      Don’t forget it’s supported by the Morrison government thanks to the apathy running rife in the LNP. The only real solution is to sell off the ABC but that’s clearly not going to happen even with LNP in government So we are stuck with their propaganda, which is becoming more and more extreme.

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    Peter Fitzroy

    Max Szulc spend a total of 18 months behind bars, mostly for contempt.

    Underling the story and what was not reported, unless you read the West Australian, was “Much of Mr Szulc’s 930ha farm has been subject to a soil conservation notice since 1994. Mr Szulc told the court he had applied to WA’s Commissioner of Soil and Land Conservation to have the notice lifted but was still waiting for an outcome 11 months later.”

    “vowed to continue the fight to farm the land he purchased 37 years ago.”

    a fuller version is here http://www.edowa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2016/11/newsletter-2010-09.pdf

    So to say that its for a fire break is not quite the truth, now is it. After all under the rules he could have cleared it bit by bit in the 37 odd years that he owned the property.

    I would suggest that by clearing the land the then 65 year old was looking to make a nice little capital gain (that is an assertion, it is not proof of anything)

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      PeterW

      More green cheese from Fitz

      A 6m firebreak in scrub or timber country is highly likely to be breached even under quite moderate fire conditions. If you had ever actually fought fire, you would know that it is far too narrow to be a safe position from which to face an oncoming fire, let alone try to stop it.

      42 ha is less than 5% of his property. The accusation that the owner is merely a speculator trying to make money – as though that makes the ban on a private owner managing his own property, more reasonable – is just an attempt to excuse the inexcusable. At that rate of clearing, where even 5% is considered more than permissible, regrowth is faster than clearing.

      Like the koalas, livestock are very vulnerable to fire . I’ve helped put them down. Creating some low-risk refuge areas is a recommended strategy for saving sheep and cattle.

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        Peter Fitzroy

        So you would say that 20m was excessive for a fire break then.

        As to the clearing at 5% a year. How many of the 37 years @5% would it take to clear all the land? (assuming that you maintain the cleared areas, with say crops, or animals or silage). Peter it does not add up. he has the land for 37 years and does nothing, then starts to clear it. So presumably, in that 37 years the regrowth that he is now clearing appeared. The conservation order was put on the land after he purchased it, which gives a reason for the land being taken out of production. I would suggest that he was sold a pup, and was trying to clear it for a quick sale. If only he had contacted some rich greenies /sarc

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          PeterW

          You don’t read, do you, Fitz.

          6m is inadequate in timber and scrub landscapes without a lot of resources. It’s not safe refuge area for crews in trucks unless conditions are relatively benign….. and for the same reason that regulations that YOU HAVE CITED permit clearing for greater distances around dwellings (occupied or not).

          A 20m break around a 930ha property represents 0.5% of the land area. The idea that that – or even 5% , represents an attempt to boost land value is simply laughable.You don’t know anything more about farming than you do firefighting. That is obvious.

          …… and no. He was NOT allowed to clear 5% per year over the previous 37 years. 5% was what got him in jail.
          .

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            Peter Fitzroy

            Peter, I understand what you are saying, but the full story is been buried

            Here is an exerpt from “Farm Weekly” Although he had cleared a total of 345ha of native vegetation, it was the 40ha Mr Szulc cleared after he was issued with a vegetation conservation notice that landed him in jail. Se he had already cleared half of his property, and then ran into the conservation orders. Now that puts everything in a completely different light, wouldn’t you say?

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              robert rosicka

              Thanks for that Fitz I now understand he wasnt jailed for cutting down trees , he was jailed for cutting down trees .
              Simple misunderstanding really .

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              Sceptical Sam

              Now that puts everything in a completely different light, wouldn’t you say?

              No, it doesn’t

              It demonstrates the heavy-handed and aggressive nature of the green/left’s policies.

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              Peter Fitzroy, you miss the point. It doesn’t matter if it was 20m wide or his whole damn farm. It’s his land.

              Why on Earth would an owner want to ruin his own property?

              We have national parks to conserve vegetation. Why on Earth should the government have any right to issue a conservation of vegetation order to a private individual?

              And if the people of WA deem that necessary let the state buy back farms at fair prices and then sell them at their new reduced market value to people who understand they are buying a piece of land that they can’t clear, control or decide how to manage?

              When Szulc bought the farm, none of those conditions existed. The govt has stolen that right without compensation.

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                Peter Fitzroy

                Well, Jo and PeterW, I must disagree.

                Firstly there are already limits on what can be done with the land once purchased, generally called zoning – you would not have been able to build a tower block of offices for instance.
                The Second point is that he had cleared roughly ½ the farm before landing in trouble. In this case the regulation said he was able to clear 1 ha in addition for infrastructure and management per year, but he did 42ha
                The third point is that the clearing regulations were to protect from soil erosion and damage to the water catchment. This is a case where you should not do harm to other people’s property,
                The fourth point was that Szulc bought the farm quite a while ago, and while the laws have changed, but ignorance of the law is not a legal defense. If it was then all those people texting would not have to worry, as the law has changed since they got their phones.
                The fifth point is that, the farm had become overgrown, since the word regrowth was used. This means that this land was not being farmed. So why should compensation be paid for derelict land, after all it was slowly returning to nature, (PeterW – albeit via the normal successional cycle, which could take a while, deci-years)

                So he had the land for a long time, had done nothing with it, and at age 65 embarked on a massive land clearing program (in terms of his holding), was told to stop, and did not. He then claims victim status (and does it the hard way with jail time). To argue that the 42ha was suddenly necessary for a fire break, after letting the land revegetate for all those years does not pass the sniff test. If he had maintained the farm in the pre-revegetation state (20 year window there) it would not have been a problem, and we would not be discussing it

                Now about those ‘rights’ or ‘natural law’ – in short we gave all that up with the formation of the various state and federal parliaments.

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                WXcycles

                Wrong, he only sought to re-establish a prior firebreak which had re-grown. Your assertion that his land was “derelict” is simply your dishonest imaginative fantasy faculty, in overdrive, because it’s not in the post above at all.

                Here in Westernistan Australia, in 2011 Szulc cleared a firebreak on his own land, and the government put him in jail. He didn’t start any fires, or put anyone at risk — he cleared a 20 wide break through scrubby regrowth on his own land, and they sent him to jail for 15 months. No heritage trees were destroyed, no rare orchids went extinct. It had all been cleared back in 1983 and regrown. His property was next to state land and he wanted to reduce the fire risk.

                And …

                The most desperate farmers were the ones living next to National-Fuel-Parks, the kind being un-managed by governments:

                Mr Borsak said farmers living next to state land were desperate to protect their property, with “millions of hectares of national park … locked up and forgotten”. “The national parks are not being properly managed,” he said.

                Ordinarily we’re required (by Government imposed laws, fines and prison time) to have a certified fire extinguisher sited in places where fires may threaten lives and property. It is a duty-of-care issue. But when it’s a fire on Government land, you’re not allowed to do the one thing that may work to save the lives and property of your family. Those can just burn and have their lives totally destroyed adn rubbed out instead.

                Because the WA Government could not give a stuff about its Duty-of-Care to the land owners.

                But it really is quite scurrilous of you to make-up that myth that his land was laying “derelict” and he was somehow worth of being treated like a bad actor. I may not be permitted to voice what I think of you for concocting that BS, but this Sesame Street Newsflash was bought to you by the letter C, the number 4, and the letter T.

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                WX… did you read any further than this blog?

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                WXcycles

                Gee Aye
                November 18, 2019 at 9:36 am
                WX… did you read any further than this blog?

                Are you also claiming that Maxwell Szulc’s land was left “derelict” and unused? If so, prove it.

                Some other point to make? Who would know, with your one-liners?

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              • #

                One liners are so unsatisfying. It’s just that you counter an argument against the primary post using… the primary post. Whatever makes you happy I guess.

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              PeterW

              No Fitz, it does not “put everything in a completely different light”.

              Ignoring your exaggeration- which I suspect is deliberate, because you like to troll – old-mate was not able to clear 5% annually. It was all apparently contrary to regulations. No 340 ha equals no jail term for the last 40 and the firebreak.

              There are several things you should bear in mind.

              1. This kind of regulation is in defiance of natural law. To sell a man Freehold title to land, and then deny him the profitable use of it (within reason) which is implicit in that title, is unjust. It is – as I said – yet another example of laws made for the benefit of people who will not pay the cost.

              2. Post-clearing regrowth is not a natural ecosystem. The species-mix changes. The physical makeup of the plant community changes. This is gesture-regulation, not the genuine conservation of a natural environment.

              3. We are not stupid. As has been pointed out, the soil is one of the most valuable parts of a multi-million dollar asset. As soil degradation is -allegedly – germain to this case, it should be pointed out that soil degradation will decrease the value of that property, should the owner decide (or be forced) to sell. I do not trust urban journalists to understand the issues or report accurately regarding them any more than I trust you, so that ball remains on court, so to speak.

              Right-to-Farm is becoming a very, very sore point in my community. We are seeing far too many examples of non-farmers who have neither experience, nor skin in the game, demanding that we accede to their demands regarding land management. That is fundamentally unjust.

              You vote for a party that has often excused, even advocated, breaking the law by activists in their cause. Whether we agree or not about the issues and the relevant law, common decency suggests that you avoid double-standards. Don’t make stuff up to justify bad law.

              4. Land values have risen appreciably of late. If old-mate was genuinely seeking to realise the value of his asset, he would have had it on the market by now, not be risking a court case over a microscopic increase in value.

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        Another Ian

        6 metres? 20 metres??

        If you’ve been there you know how wide the clearing and maintained section of the Stuart Highway south of Alice Springs is?

        One son was helping with a fire in that area and the highway wasn’t wide enough for a fire break.

        And an update on using petrol powered leaf blowers instead of flappers.

        They work ok but not so well if the fire is being driven by wind as they make wind-bourne embers

        They fit easily in a helicopter

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          Another Ian

          Time to mention what is called in US “black lining”

          Which is where the paddock has a perimeter strip of around 400 m wide set up to burn BEFORE things get potentially dangerous.

          Serves as some protection for the rest – or lowers the risk of burning the rest for management purposes if a more robust fire is required.

          Best of British luck getting a permit to set that up under current Qld veg management laws.

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            Chad

            Which is where the paddock has a perimeter strip of around 400 m wide set up to burn BEFORE things get potentially dangerous.

            Sorry, but what exactly does that mean ? ( assume the 400m should read 40m)
            Do you mean they deliberately burn a 40m strip around the edge of the paddock to prevent the whole paddock burning ?
            That would need every paddock owner to be responsible for a large clearance burn during a high fire risk period ?

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    Yonniestone

    What we are seeing where overreaching government restrictions placed upon private and public property is a combination of Agenda 2030 and the natural expansion of a self sustaining bureaucracy, by nature both of these entities will test boundaries of the public and law to ascertain how far they can push the limits of regulation to gather information so future growth of regulation can be planned and implemented.

    The growth of the Authoritarian is to the detriment of the Libertarian.

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      PeterS

      Yes it’s amazing to see how we are become more and more Orwellian. It’s not exactly how George Orwell expected it would come about but the end result is pretty much the same; authoritarian control. It’s no surprise to see an increasing amount of mind control experiments. As for memory holes well we can safely say the ABC are already implementing their version of it.

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        Yonniestone

        The only part Orwell couldn’t predict was the scale of technology and the role of private monopolies working towards that goal.

        Perhaps these monopolies become the elite overlords as its never clear in the book.

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    robert rosicka

    Caravan park near me cut down 20 gum trees on his boundary fence and was fined $1000 per tree , he wanted a better firebreak between him and the adjoining bushland .
    Trees were originally planted many years ago by the first owners of the park .
    On my block I “pruned” all the gum trees to about 6 feet in height ,after two years the rest disappeared one by one , I was asked what happened but said they died after the pruning .
    My block stands out in this estate as being the only one completely gumtree free .

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    PeterW

    To show how ridiculous such clearing controls could be….

    In NSW we had – fortunately now moderated – a Native Vegetation Act that protected one of the native species that is not just common, but more common than it was prior to colonisation..

    Legislation that deemed land to be “habitat” for endangered species if there had been just one sighting in that locality it 200 years.

    It is seriously frightening how far-reaching and irrational city-centric legislators are.

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    Vishnu

    Oh the noble farmer – for some people it’s just money-making. You can abuse the landscape for years before it collapses.
    Ironic from the salinity capital of Australia too.
    And the WA wheat belt – I thought you got it all – you mean there are actual trees left to clear? Jeepers.

    Anyway city chumps still handing out more tax money for never-ending (jeez hope it isn’t climate change) drought assistance – those horrid city people.

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      PeterW

      Vishnu…..

      I hope you didn’t type that with your mouth full.

      When it comes to the recept of unearned benefits, the historical benefit to the urban dwellers at the expense of primary industry far outweighs the reverse….. This discussion is very much one on the subject of bush-dwellers paying the price of an urban fantasy of pristine nature without the evils of human management.

      If you truly wish to discuss drought relief as a seperate issue, you are welcome. But do it properly. Do it in the context of an industry that not only supplies you with some of the best quality food in the world, but which generates very significant export earnings….. earnings which go through an average of eight Australian pockets before they leave the country again.
      Do it in the context of an industry that more than pays its share of taxes in the good years, Those eight pockets I mentioned? They all pay tax, too.
      Do it in the context of an industry that must take risks if it is to return to production quickly with rains…… relying on retaining people with the experience required to know when to take that risk….. because sure as hell, the Government really sucks at knowing when droughts are going to end.

      If you think it’s that easy…., you do it.

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        PeterW

        Oh and BTW……

        If you want me to prepare for the next drought…… get the ATO’s hands out of my pockets while I’m trying to pay for the kind of things that would mean I won’t have to put my hand out.

        I don’t want your damned money. I just want to keep my own.

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        • #
          Vishnu

          NFF says – The agricultural sector, at farm-gate, contributes 3 percent to Australia’s total gross domestic product (GDP). The gross value of Australian farm production in 2016-17 was $60 billion.

          Woo hoo. 3%

          Nobody is forcing anyone to farm or run the corner store or the panel beaters or the local computer store.

          But the taxpayer gets the tab of the WA salinity patch from rampant overclearing. And the 100s of millions outgoing for drought aid non-stop. The old capitalise gains and socialise the losses – tax releif – income equalisation deposits.
          But excuse me – I”m on your side and more generous than your think – just tired of the bleating and lack of responsibility or adaptability. Maccas is chasing sustainable beef. Coles and Woolworths follow suit. Beef without bulldozers. Beef without massive gully erosion ending up on the reef – sediment levels at least 5x pre-European. 20% of northern Australian rangelands degraded. Yea great management.

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            It is funny what you can do with selective statistics. Also from the nff

            Australian farmers produce almost 93 percent of Australia’s daily domestic food supply.

            given the value of food security it is unwise to erode the farming sector. Seems like an essential service worth preserving.

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            PeterW

            Vish….

            You still can’t acknowlefge the point, can you.

            You enjoy the benefits of this sector – including the export income generated and the taxes paid, without putting back. You get more than you pay.

            You want the land managed to YOUR satisfaction, but you don’t want to pay the costs.

            So I suggest that either you do the decent thing and pay for what you want …… or get your nose out of my business and your sticky fingers out of my wallet.

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            Brian Lund

            Vishnu, I presume you haven’t looked at all (or any of) the old river channels in Queensland, that opened on to the reef – channels that have silted up and, as rivers changed their course. eroded more land.
            Going by some of the drilling results I’ve witnessed, there have been some absolutely massive floods in times gone by – long before white man got to this old island.

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      • #
        Lionell Griffith

        I suggest a “common sense requirement” that all politicians and government workers PROVE that they earned their keep, honestly and honorably, on their own land for a period of 10 years.

        Only then should they be allowed to run for office or take a government position. That might wake them up to the reality that earning one’s keep is hard work, takes knowledge, skill, and willingness to accept what is. All combined with an abundant amount of risk of failure.

        They then might not look upon a productive individual as a bottomless ATM from whom wealth can be extracted without consequence. As it is, ALL of them think “there is more where that came from so spend like there is no tomorrow and regulate regulate regulate. (It is so much fun spending other people’s money.)”

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          PeterW

          Lionell……

          I’m a bit of a fan of limited tenure.

          That way we just might have fewer professional politicians who are insulated from the realities of their decisions by gold-plated superannuation.

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            Graeme No.3

            PeterW:

            Careful. Part, a large part, of the problem is bureaucrats taking a vague wish from some Minister and converting it into another tangle of regulations and control, with opaque language and costs, and the need for more expenditure on the bureaucratic officers.
            At the very least I would ask that each bill first be examined in a public meeting(s) with the relevant Minister answering the questions (with no notice on them and no prepared waffle from the bureaucrats) and period of publication beforehand to allow it to be considered. That way the politician won’t be able to ram a bill through without thought, and might get some idea of the public’s reaction.
            OK, the professional lobbyists will be to the fore, but they won’t all be in favour, and some concerned citizens might get through direct to the Minister. Having a blowtorch applied to their behind may make some a little less arrogant and (possibly) more careful.

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            • #
              Serp

              Yeah but the politicians only ever see, at most if anything, a one page precis of legislation before voting on it.

              This was most dramatically brought to light when Craig Kelly insisted on viewing Turnbull’s NEG legislation in full, an action which precipitated the massive dummy spit which saw Malcolm resign and anoint ScoMo as his cloned successor.

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      • #

        I drove out on the drought-ravaged Macleay flood plain yesterday, past the dairy herds and sheds. Somehow those guys keep going and milk keeps flowing.

        I couldn’t handle it in good times. They handle it now.

        A line from Henry Lawson applies: “My tribute to their straightness”.

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  • #
    WXcycles

    The councils are never going to act in our interests if we keep voting for them. Only the fear of losing automatic access to the public chaff-bag will cause the politicians and council admin to respond to citizen complaints and demands. And even then, only to get elected one more time. I don’t vote for any of them, and never will again, it’s the only ethical response left to an abused democratic population that’s been completely taken for granted by politicians, parties and all levels of government. A lot of people will disagree with that, and think it makes no sense, but after every election I can see that I made the right ethical and moral choice.

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    • #
      Serp

      Regular viewing of Private Eye’s Rotten Boroughs pages will remove any naive misapprehensions that public office is pursued by the well-intentioned; self-aggrandising sociopaths predominate and those that escape conviction move on to the houses of parliament to enrich themselves even further.

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    pat

    BBC has a new correspondent in Australia, Shaimaa Khalil, who arrived in Australia last week. she is bushfire-obsessed. last nite, BBC Newshour had a report from her on the NSW bushfires, and Helen was naturally given a voice:

    8min01sec to 12min57sec: NSW bushfire segment. BBC’s Julian Marshall: fies expected to flare up again as temperatures rise in the coming days. Warren’s neighbour Helen: it’s never happened like this before. 100 fires burning in one day? out of control? no, this is climate change, and this is the effect we’re having on the planet. ends with BBC’s Shaimaa Khalil: fires expected to flare up again, as the drought continues and the temperatures rise.

    AUDIO: 52min59sec: 16 Nov: BBC Newshour
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w172wq5176zdxlg

    Twitter: Shaimaa Khalil, BBC, Sydney
    https://twitter.com/shaimaakhalil?lang=en

    some examples:

    TWEET: Shaimaa Khalil, BBC
    #Thread-It’s remarkable coming from UK & watching @QandA debate on #ClimateChange
    -The issue is political everywhere but fiercely more political and partisan here in #Australia
    -Points made that politicising it keeps the focus on political spats not on people+policies
    11 Nov 2019
    TWEET: Main Qs
    -Can energy policies be decoupled from politics-away from partisanship+handed to experts?
    -How do you incentivise #Australians to give up on the resources behind their prosperity and buy into renewable?
    -Can #Australia realistically transition to renewable energy? #QandA
    11 Nov 2019

    TWEET: Shaimaa Khalil, BBC:
    Watching @QandA for the first time on TV in real-time here in #Sydney. Tonight’s couldn’t be more timely. Fire fighter in the audience saying #bushfires are getting worse. #ClimateChange a factor. More firefighters needed on the ground . #qanda
    ONE REPLY ONLY:
    Peter “Bold” Martin: So your training for ‘reporting’ on any issue, including climate science matters, in Australia has been… watching TV after a long haul flight?
    11 Nov 2019

    TWEET: Shaimaa Khalil
    #Australia warns of a “catastrophic” #bushfire threat to the areas around #Sydney as blazes rage across #NSW and #Queensland – meantime the country’s conservative gov. refuses to make the link to #ClimateChange – #auspol2019 ***LINK BBC
    10 Nov 2019
    ***11 Nov: BBC: Australia bushfires: State of emergency declared over ‘catastrophic’ threat

    TWEET: Shaimaa Khalil, BBC
    That’s me only a few minutes after arriving. Rocking the sleep deprived jet-lagged look! ***Thanks for the sun #Sydney!!
    10 Nov 2019

    Shaimaa Khalil was in US for BBC, covering the 2016 presidential election. a must-listen from election night:

    AUDIO: 3min01sec: 10 Nov 2016: BBC: Candlelight vigil for ‘shocked’ Clinton supporters
    While supporters of Donald Trump have been celebrating an exceptional win at the polls, those who backed Hillary Clinton are left reeling from her defeat. The BBC’s ***SHAIMAA KHALIL went to an impromptu candlelight vigil outside the White House in Washington DC and met Jenny and Logan.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p04fsq15

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    Another Ian

    “In less than a decade we have got to a point where the starting point for many, at the point the fires start, is to set up the deck chairs, chill the sauv blanc, and settle in for an afternoon of online ranting about who’s to blame.”

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2019/11/17/lefties-eating-each-other-comedy-edition/

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Sue negligent concils or even have civil legal actiin against negligent concillors directly.

      Once they realise they are vulnerable , it will change…..but it will a few knock down drag out cases to bring sanity back to leftist infested local “govt”.

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        Graeme No.3

        OriginalSteve:

        How do your local Council meetings go? Do the Councillors dine well beforehand (on expenses) and several doze off during the meeting? Do ‘difficult’ questions get referred back to Council Officers (never to be answered)? Does the local “every tree is sacred” Councilor waffle on and on against any development proposal? Do weird proposals get approved beforehand (in private)?
        And do senior council bureaucrats ever appear at (the rare) public meetings? Or do junior bureaucrats just say they will refer questions back to the relevant office**?
        I attended (half) a public consultative meeting last year, apparently to discuss the Town plan as originally proposed 12 years ago, and now in its fourth version. Nothing has been done, and from the consultation nothing was yet proposed.

        ** and does any intelligible answer ever eventuate. From my (limited) experience this referring back seems to involve translation successively into 5 different languages and land mail to Timbuktu (via Ulan Bator) with replies coming by rafts with paddles.

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    pat

    investigation of incendiary remarks on Fran’s Q&A (still undecided?) hasn’t stopped revolutionary Fran from continuing in a similar vein!

    VIDEO: 9min58sec: 17 Nov: ABC: Adam Bandt defends ‘arsonists’ comment by Greens colleague Jordon Steele-John
    By political reporter Stephanie Dalzell
    Greens co-deputy leader Adam Bandt has defended his colleague Jordon Steele-John for describing other senators as “arsonists” as bushfires raged along Australia’s east coast…

    On Insiders, Mr Bandt was asked (BY FRAN KELLY) whether the language was out of line and insensitive, given people had lost their lives and homes.
    “I think you should listen to the emotion in Jordon Steele-John’s voice as he’s talking there. I think he’s the youngest member of Parliament, he’s part of the generation that’s terrified and aghast with what they’re seeing with the climate crisis,” Mr Bandt said.

    “Unless the Government gets the climate crisis under control and reins in its use of coal, then this generation is going to rise up with a fury that is matched only by the intensity of the fires.
    “People may quibble about the words that are used, but I would urge people to listen to the point that Jordon was making.” …
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-17/adam-bandt-defends-jordon-steele-john-arsonists-comment/11712032

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    R.B.

    And the bureaucrats are on good coin from taxes on the profits of those bringing in money from overseas.

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    pat

    another ABC beat-up, with no context:

    17 Nov: ABC: NSW bushfires destroy nearly 500 homes as crews scramble to build containment lines
    By Sarah Thomas
    The burnt area statewide now covers more than 1,650,000 hectares — more than during the past three bushfire seasons combined.
    NSW RFS Deputy Commissioner Rob Rogers said 476 homes had been destroyed, with firefighters today tackling 56 fires, 27 of which were uncontained.

    During last year’s season, 37 homes were destroyed.
    And in the previous most severe bushfire season, which was 2013-14, 248 homes were lost over the entirety of the period — about half of the current tally.
    Of this season’s total so far, 367 homes have been destroyed since the latest blast of harsh weather began on November 8…

    Deputy Commissioner Rogers said controlled burning was being undertaken around homes threatened by the Gospers Mountain blaze…
    The Gospers Mountain fire, north-west of Sydney, has now burnt through about 120,000 hectares of the Wollemi National Park…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-17/nsw-bushfires-nearly-500-homes-destroyed-since-start-of-season/11711898

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    pat

    17 Nov: ABC: Queensland bushfires set to be ‘incredibly challenging’ today, with strong winds and thunderstorms forecast
    By Rebeka Powell, staff
    As of 12:30pm there were no emergency blazes, with fires in the Scenic Rim, at Mount Lindesay, and Darling Downs, near Ravensbourne, downgraded to watch and act overnight.
    At a community meeting in Hampton, north of Toowoomba, Queensland Fire and Emergency Services (QFES) incident controller John Welk told residents he expected the bushfire there to burn for another week…
    “We’re a long way from over, people … the fire will move and we will struggle with it today,” Mr Welk said.
    “I’m not hiding that fact at all — today is going to be an incredibly challenging day for us.”…
    Toowoomba Mayor Paul Antonio said the region had never seen fires like the one crews were battling this week.
    “These are really trying times,” he said…

    ‘Any new fires could start quite easily’
    BOM senior forecaster Jess Gardner said the focus today would remain in that area where the fire threat remains, and winds could reach up to 40 kilometres an hour.
    “Those winds can make the fires travel quite fast and the heat and the dryness means that any new fires could start quite easily, and fires will burn quite easily as well,” Ms Gardner said…

    Ravensbourne resident Brett Dreyer said he evacuated his home for the first time in his 15 years of living in the area…
    “This has been a bit more extreme than previous years when we’ve had some local events happen so it’s probably more extreme.”…
    But he said he was not particularly surprised when the fire broke out in the Darling Downs due to the region’s bone-dry conditions.
    “I had considered it in this area because there’s an awful lot of fuel in our local sort of parks and bushland areas,” he said.
    “… We’re such a high-rainfall area generally speaking, but the more recent events that we’re having just seem to be getting worse because it’s getting drier year by year.
    “What I’m seeing just recently is reasonably extreme — not much green left anywhere. And all you need to add then is the fire and the wind.”…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-17/queensland-bushfires-pechey-ravensbourne-mt-lindesay-focus/11711290

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    pat

    13 Nov: ABC: Cigarette butt to blame for devastating Binna Burra bushfire
    ABC Gold Coast By Gemma Sapwell
    Officers said two local teenagers — aged 17 and 19 — had been questioned about the incident and detectives had determined the fire was an accident.
    “A prosecution will not be commenced against those persons … they are afforded privacy just like anyone else in their position,” a QPS spokesperson said.

    Last week, police stated they would not reveal what sparked the blaze as they feared those responsible could be vilified in the small, tight-knit community.
    But after a backlash from locals, authorities have now released more details…
    Binna Burra Lodge chairman Steve Noakes welcomed the police decision to be more transparent with the community.
    “It’s nice to know the actual cause of it,” he said…

    Mr Noakes believed most of the community will accept the decision not to reveal the identities of the teenagers involved.
    “We respect the decision of police, we know they’re acting in the best interest of the community.”…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-13/binna-burra-fire-an-accident-teenagers-discarded-cigarettes/11699474

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      PeterW

      “Vilified”?

      Heaven help the poor precious little dears…. do something that stupid and somebody might say something…..

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      • #
        truth

        Apologies if this has already been dealt with…but didn’t the Greens who were seriously cashed up at the time ..when Bob Brown was leader….express their intentions to buy up huge tracts of land to lock up as National Parks or their version thereof?

        Does anyone know if that went ahead or not and if so where it is and who manages it?

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    PeterW

    More examples of non-farmers demanding that farmers change to suit them.

    https://www.nswfarmers.org.au/NSWFA/Posts/The_Farmer/Rural_Affairs/NSW_farmers_want_their_right_to_farm_enshrined_in_law.aspx

    I’m far enough out of town for it not to be an immediate problem, but it’s a serious worry. I also see it when people buy into areas known to be amongst the most popular public-land hunting areas in SE-Australia, then complain because there are people in the bush with guns.
    Sometimes they lie – the Police know that they lie – but politics being what it is, they must be seen to be taking action.

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    [...] a fire break and go to gaol. Here in Western Australia farmer Szulc cleared a 20 wide break through scrubby regrowth on his [...]

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    Phoenix44

    It is often claimed that the difference between fascism and communism us that fascism allows private businesses and us thus “right-wing”. But fascism expects private businesses to serve the state – it controls what you make, how much you sell for who you employ and on what terms. It decides who owns businesses and what profit- if any – they can make. There us no practical difference between fascism and communism.

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      Lionell Griffith

      They both end in wholesale human sacrifice. As they must. The individual, in both cases, must serve the purposes of the state/collective.
      Such purposes are never in the interest of any private individual but is always at the cost of each individual.

      The public interest does not exist as such. Take away the individual members, there is nothing left to have an interest. The so called “public interest” is best represented as that degree of mutual cooperation that is freely performed by the individuals who do exist. Otherwise, it is expressed as the governing body using physical force to make the governed do what they would not otherwise do. It is nothing but despotism.

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      Latus Dextro

      Giovanni Gentile, father of fascism was a disciple of Marx. There is indeed no practical difference between communism and fascism. The focus of the collective is the ‘success’ of the State, and the focus of the State is upon the requisite devotion of the collective and the elitist arbitration of resources through regulation, endless, mind-numbing, brutal, inefficient regulation.

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    Yep, yr fascism and communism and yr EU Bureau central authoritarian decision making, a hair’s breath between them, parliamentary democracy is o-u-t…

    “Varieties of Fascism,’ Eugen Weber.

    ‘Nothing is more astonishing than the blindness of Conservative economic and social leaders, not only in Germany but everywhere, to the fact that dynamism, whether Fascist or Nationalist Socialist, or any other , is revolutionary , and that its conservative elements are only in appearance conservative, and in reality work on the strict lines of State Socialism, leading of necessity to the expropriation of the leaders of industry …. ‘The revolution will proceed on its course. And it will do so through the initiation of a revolutionary elite in cooperation with masses excited into revolution.’ Hermann Rauschning. p30 p 48.

    ‘The individual exists only insofar as he is in the State and subordinate to the necessities of the State;the more complex the forms of civilization become. the more the freedom of the individual is restricted Mussolini. p 76.,’

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    PeterW

    A historical observation….. the earliest known fire brigades were groups of volunteers, self-organising to defend their localities – the Vigiles of Ancient Rome. (No, the similarity to the Spanish word “vigilantes” is not a coincidence.)

    The origin of volunteer fire brigades in Australia was communities self-organising for more effective community defence. There were no “services” back then. The Services were created to give more government control over a pre-existing phenomenon.

    What we are starting to see – particularly in Victoria, as the CFA becomes more and more of a burden on its members – is rural dwellers abandoning the Service and acting as loose, self-organising group again.

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    Bill in Oz

    Just a test !

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    Kim

    On my property in SW WA if I don’t clear fire breaks and keep the fuel load low I could be in serious trouble. We have always had strong local regulations but since the greenies burnt down 40 homes 8 years ago they have become even tighter. Time the ES caught up.

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    pat

    heard these two stories would be in the MSM today – which one might ABC cover?

    17 Nov: Australian: Spooked insurers walking away from agriculture
    Exclusive by Ben Higgins
    Farmers face potential ruin as insurers spooked by climate change, drought and bushfires ­refuse to cover crops worth billions of dollars.
    Plantation crops such as ­bananas and pineapples, some of which were destroyed in the latest Queensland bushfires, could be the next to be uninsurable, a ­report published on Monday by global insurance broker Gallagher warns.

    “Plantation insurance will be one of the first casualties of climate change,” the report says. Other crops including grapes, citrus and almonds could be not far behind, with insurers pulling cover altogether or raising premiums to the point where they become unaffordable for most growers.
    “While cotton is well supported, the appetite among insurers for horticulture and viticulture is curbed, and for vegetable cropping it is non-existent,” the Gallagher report says.

    The government is rejecting calls from the National Farmers Federation and the Insurance Council of Australia to subsidise crop insurance, as other countries such as the US do.
    Gallagher’s managing director for specialist insurance Paul Harvey said the uptick in adverse weather had “spooked” insurers…
    “This puts the gross value of crop production in Australia of $29.3bn under threat.”…
    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/spooked-insurers-walking-away-from-agriculture/news-story/856d59c9d8d95d2e45acb04158884a04

    18 Nov: SMH: Arson, mischief and recklessness: 87 per cent of fires are man-made
    Opinion By Paul Read
    (Paul Read is an ecological criminologist and sustainability scientist at Monash University. Dr Paul Read is a Senior Lecturer, School of Psychological Sciences at Monash University.)
    There are, on average, 62,000 fires in Australia every year. Only a very small number strike far from populated areas and satellite studies tell us that lightning is responsible for only 13 per cent. Not so the current fires threatening to engulf Queensland and NSW. There were no lightning strikes on most of the days when the fires first started in September. Although there have been since, these fires – joining up to create a new form of mega-fire – are almost all man-made.

    A 2015 satellite analysis of 113,000 fires from 1997-2009 confirmed what we had known for some time – 40 per cent of fires are deliberately lit, another 47 per cent accidental. This generally matches previous data published a decade earlier that about half of all fires were suspected or deliberate arson, and 37 per cent accidental. Combined, they reach the same conclusion: 87 per cent are man-made…
    https://www.smh.com.au/national/arson-mischief-and-recklessness-87-per-cent-of-fires-are-man-made-20191117-p53bcl.html

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      pat

      which one might ABC cover? no surprise:

      AUDIO: 3min37sec: 18 Nov: ABC AM: Insurance Council calls on govts to factor climate change into fire preparations
      By Eleni Psaltis on AM
      As thousands of residents in bushfire-affected areas in New South Wales and southern Queensland assess the damage this week, the insurance industry has joined scientists and fire chiefs in calling on governments to factor in climate change and be better prepared for future disasters.
      The Insurance Council of Australia has revealed it has already received about 900 claims for properties damaged or destroyed from this week’s fires: a number the industry expects to rise.
      Featured:
      Campbell Fuller, head of media relations, Insurance Council of Australia
      Craig Crawford, Queensland Minister for Fire and Emergency Services
      Linda Scott, president, Local Government NSW and Deputy Lord Mayor of Sydney
      https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/am/insurance-council-calls-on-govts-factor-climate-change-fire-prep/11712768

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  • #

    Michael262, Forests need cool burns. It’s in their DNA. Those who want to destroy forests don’t allow, or slow, clearing, thinning or small burns and thus guarantee the destructive firestorms are inevitable.

    Greens = Vandals of wilderness and destroyers of wildlife.

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    • #

      who knows where this reply will end up as the comment structure is a bit haywire.

      Forests need cool burns. It’s in their DNA.

      I will put my ecologist hat on and say that entirety of the quote is generalizing and the quote snippet is so wrong on all sorts of levels. There are plenty of forests that require no burning and, in any case, the burning is mostly to serve human needs- the ecological needs, especially of annual burning, are not so easily defined. you make it all sound clear cut and simple. Also, burning the understory in cooler conditions to achieve the slower cooler burning is not always possible. What then?

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      • #
        Kalm Keith

        “What then?”

        Just use fire.

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        If you regard the forest, and I will include national parks as (a) land not yet exploited by farms or mining, or (b) land that is to be managed in a way which makes it less threatening (and habitable for the natives) then a cool yearly burn is all you need. /sarc
        As to DNA, if you are a species which has a high fire response (mostly weeds but still) then yes the statement is true, and it is guaranteed that cool yearly burns will move the ecosystem in that direction (also killing off any other seedlings into the bargain)

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        • #
          Dave

          Both GeeEye and Peter

          Where did you get the idea of ANNUAL BURN?

          You are both talking lies!

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          • #
            Kalm Keith

            Gosh Yes.

            They’re both Annuals.

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          • #

            I didn’t lie, please choose your accusations more carefully… I didn’t say this explicitly above and it was not quoting anyone- where burning is concerned annually is unlikely to match any natural pattern. I was guilty of adding a fact that was rather mundane.

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              Dave

              Sue me too!

              Why bring up something that wasn’t even mentioned to gloss up your argument?

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              • #

                I anticipated this and posted a response that is in mod now. Seriously though, I did mention annually and regret to have done so only as it was peripheral and resulted in a distraction without any effort to engage with my point – ie Jo’s comment was a simplification to the extreme.

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              • #

                Michael262, Forests need cool burns. (untrue generalization)

                It’s in their DNA (vague and seldom true).

                Those who want to destroy forests don’t allow, or slow, clearing, thinning or small burns and thus guarantee the destructive firestorms are inevitable. (this malformed sentence is just projected rhetoric)

                Greens = Vandals of wilderness and destroyers of wildlife (green thumb bait)

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          • #

            From our parliament just to provide evidence that annual is a considered possibility

            https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/Publications_Archive/CIB/cib0203/03Cib08

            Some scientists believe that burning forests too often poses a serious threat to biodiversity and that their cumulative effect may be as profound as high intensity fires.(41) In evidence to the Bushfire Inquiry, Professor Rob Whelan made the statement that he was surprised at the emphasis given to frequent hazard reduction burning and that it implied a pretence that the bushfire problem was a simple one that could be met with a simple solution, frequent hazard reduction burning. He told the Inquiry that fire ecology researchers have accepted that frequent broad scale burning of forests, whether by fuel reduction burns or bushfires, had detrimental impacts on biodiversity conservation.(42)

            “However other scientists have argued that this may be based on false perceptions of widespread frequent and uniform burning. They argue that prescribed fires will be patchy in coverage with different environments having different frequencies of low intensities from annual to never.(43) Low intensity fires will not consistently burn gullies. While NSW State Forests aim to achieve up to 60 per cent coverage of gross burning area, in some years this may average down to 20 per cent.(44)”

            41. E. M. Tasker, ‘Australia wrestles with fires control’, Australian Geographic News, 11 November 2002.

            42.Joint Select Committee on Bushfire 2002, op. cit., p. 51.

            43 and 44 V. Jurskis, Fire management for conservation: reconciling theory and practice in Proceedings Bushfire 2001, Australasian Bushfire Conference, Christchurch 3 6 July 2001, pp. 190 4.

            [I wish the researcher had gone to the original publications rather than reports and a colour supplement]

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          Peter Fitzroy

          Silly me, I’d thought that using the plural (burns) would have been enough to make it understood that using one burn for an entire forest is beyond anything yet put out by the nationals, or the shooters and fishers (cows in national parks for one, and farmers burning in national parks for the other). To make it tediously clear – Fire is a management tool. You use it to produce an outcome (say like no snakes in sugarcane). If you want the bush to be less threatening, then a moasic of annual burns on a 3 year rotation (longer in a drought) will produce a game park full of deer and Kangas, and the hunting (without all that undergrowth) will be just like in jolly old England. back in the day of serfdom.

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            PeterW

            Fitz…

            One of your more sensible replies. Kudos for that. The obvious observation is that it’s a lack of fuel management that produces these horizon-to-horizon fires with no unburnt niches for seedbanks or wildlife refuges.

            The thing about music burning is that you have to work with the landscape, not fight it by trying to burn blocks defined by where you can put in breaks. One strategy used by alpine graziers, probably copying it from aboriginals, was to light th ridgelines at the times of year in which the ridges were drying off and the gullies were still green. Overnight dews would cause fires to selfextinguish.

            I suspect that the aboriginals just lit up as soon as they saw something that would burn in the spring.

            With the property fringing Parks that need protecting, now, it would probably require some pretty significant firebreaks around the outside, and maybe a far greater community involvement in patrolling after the initial burns had gone in…… maybe we should be discussing community attitude to fire as a natural part of living in rural areas, rather than as an “emergency” demanding a full government response while the peasants sit back, fat, dumb and helpless. I don’t see why not, as ever man and his dog in my area uses fire as a land-management tool.

            Oh and BTW , there seems to be a lot of evidence that much of the dense forest that we see now was far more open and park-like when Arthur Phillip and his merry lads came sailing over the horizon.

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          • #
            AndyG55

            “Silly me!”

            No argument.

            Do you enjoys being an AGW serf?

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      • #
        PeterW

        GA….

        As the discussion is about forests in a drought-prone climate, then those forests that are not fire-adapted are outside the scope of this discussion. More, an attempt to produce that kind of forest through fire-exclusion is not management for the conservation of the natural ecosystem.

        What CAN be argued is that there are some small parts of the landscape that probably should not be burned. HOWEVER, as those parts will burn in a major drought, the most obvious natural mechanism to preserve those areas (peat bogs, hanging wet gullies etc) is frequent burning of the surrounding fire-climax forest.

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        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          While fire climax is a thing in ecology, there is significant debate about its usefulness. Let me explain. Climax communities are not frozen in time, and will change in response to species competition and to external drivers. A community which is tagged as a fire climax is also tagged as an interrupted succession. If you remove fire, that community will change into something else, that is the seccession will recommence.

          06

      • #
        PeterW

        GA….

        I suspect it would help your understanding if you took a clear-eyed look at some of the Eucalyptus Camuldulensis forests along the Murray.

        Many of them are obviously not in good health, being choked with a high density of saplings, which are short of water in a drought year and nutrients at any time.

        Historical evidence is that the forests found by the early explorers and settlers were relatively open, as few as 8/ha stem density. As the biology of River Red Gums predisposes them to wheatfield regeneration events following fires and floods, it is equally obvious that a mechanism for thinning regrowth is required for healthy forests, and that the natural mechanism is frequent fire.

        To just talk about “forests” without acknowledging the context of this discussion is ignorant, at best, and smells of outright dishonesty. It is no wonder that some think you a liar.
        Your knowledge of ecology is obviously limited, so a little humility may be in order.

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        • #
          Peter Fitzroy

          i will dispute everything you say in the following paragraph
          “Historical evidence is that the forests found by the early explorers and settlers were relatively open, as few as 8/ha stem density. As the biology of River Red Gums predisposes them to wheatfield regeneration events following fires and floods, it is equally obvious that a mechanism for thinning regrowth is required for healthy forests, and that the natural mechanism is frequent fire.”

          What historical evidence, what is the method for predisposition, how many mechanisms are there, if fire what is the frequency?

          “To just talk about “forests” without acknowledging the context of this discussion is ignorant”, the dominant vegetation of the Esperance region where max has/dad his farm is mallee heath while while also talking about Eucalyptus Camaldulensis (fixed your typo), which is in a completely different ecology at best, “and smells of outright dishonesty. It is no wonder that some think you a liar.”

          Are your pants on fire yet

          07

      • #
        william x

        Hi Gee aye. In your quote above you stated “I will put my ecologist hat on”.
        Gee aye, I am confused. Are you just interested in ecology or are you an ecologist?

        An Ecologist has a specialisation in an area of the environment and is the holder of a bachelors degree.

        You have put your ecologist hat on, and thereby insinuated that you are an ecologist. I will believe you.

        I am interested to know: What is your specialisation in the field you studied as a student of ecology? and from which institution did you get that qualification?

        70

      • #
        Peter C

        I will put my ecologist hat on

        Do you have any qualification in ecology? Is it an interest or just a way of generating a reply?

        30

      • #
        AndyG55

        “I will put my ecologist hat on”

        … and totally ignore that fact that many Australia bush species required fire for their seeds to geminate.

        So yes, the do need fire.

        60

    • #

      If you read some of the very early journals, especially Tench’s, and if you know Sydney, you will wonder at how the first fleeters moved about through what we now call bush.

      The answer is simple. All accessible land was maintained through regular burning. There was no “bush”. There was a maintained landscape. An aborigine of Philip’s day would not know what to do with “bush” as we know it now.

      Trying to make this peculiar modern “bush” revert to some “pristine” state which never existed and can never exist is, shall we say, ambitious. The aboriginal people came here before the last glacial maximum and transformed the land in their way while actual climate change was making its own transformations.

      You can’t go back to “then”. There is no then there. Just do the burn-offs, okay? Or fry.

      10

  • #
    TdeF

    The real problem is that the bureaucrats who run Australia, the US and the UK, the ones who write laws like the RET, the 98.4% of Washington DC who voted for Hillary Clinton and the public service in England who have fought Brexit to a standstill have nothing in common with the people. Many have never been on a farm in their lives. To them you just write legislation and earn a lot more than farmers and never have to do any of the real dirty work. Who needs farmers? They don’t know any.

    So they have no idea of animals, life and death, seed, ploughing, water, planting, fires, and spend their days writing legislation for the ministers to pass. That is how the US passed laws where people could not dig a waterhole on their own property for thirsty cattle. Not National Park land, but private property and they watched and fined by satellite. Fines of $40,000 a day for any unauthorised patch of water. This absurdity has been repealed by Donald Trump and many like it, but we remain subject to the sort of people who allowed a major forest fire inside our architect designed capital Canberra with their refusal to clear even around city properties, so a whole suburb was lost inside a very modern city. Arrogance compounding ignorance.

    As Australia loses all its manufacturing with the world’s highest electricity forced by the RET, they want to close down all farming and keep passing laws to make it happen. Today in the news they are dramatically increasing the price of diesel for trucks which will force many companies into bankruptcy. Without trucks, farming does not work, so it is an assault on farming. Diesel used to be much cheaper because only farmers, tractors and pumps and trucks used it. Thanks to the Greens’ mad idea that it was somehow less ‘polluting’, it is now more expensive. And in France the people are still upset at being forced to buy diesel cars and then fined for driving them.

    There seems to be no end of the damage done by the inner city Greens who have no idea of the realities of life outside the Latte circle. In Canberra, Washington or Whitehalle. The new type of person who lives in a megacity simply should not be passing laws making mining, agriculture, trucking, coal power stations and even driving to work impossible. That is what is happening around the world, the creation of a new Eloi who live in their own paradise and never get their hands dirty and vote Green and think food comes from shops and bicycles from China and electricity comes from a power point. They are the problem.

    And they use the laws to enforce their ignorance. And the ABC to back it up.

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    • #
      Kalm Keith

      That’s great TdeF.

      Twenty five years ago an acquaintance said, in relation to the state of mind that Australia was in: we need another war.

      I was horrified, but on reflection the current direction that Australia has is worse than a war in because too few see what’s happening.

      It’s only when things happen external to our own experience that they stand out.

      Australians see school shootings in the USA and it really registers because so far we’ve had only the Martin Bryant thing.

      These things are routine in America and probably don’t occupy people as much.

      The weird and wonderful thing is that in America someone as unusual as D. Trump has been able to begin restoring some rationality to life there.

      Maybe there is hope for Australia after all, but there’s no leader visible at the moment.

      We want a country where we can invest our life’s effort and feel that we have built something.

      At the moment that isn’t the case.

      KK

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      • #
        PeterS

        KK it’s not so much that Australia is need of another war, sadly it’s due for its first civil war. Be patient as it will eventuate as the leftists anarchists grow in number and power.

        51

        • #
          Kalm Keith

          Blast. That red was a fat finger. See green.

          10

        • #
          beowulf

          Every nation needs a good cleansing revolution every few hundred years to re-set the government and bureaucratic clocks to zero. Without such a re-set the pollies and bureaucrats just carry on unchecked in perpetuity; liberties are eroded; death of the populace by a thousand cuts; we frogs are slow-boiled.

          America’s founding fathers foresaw such a need for a periodic citizens’ insurrection to revive the Republic with the blood of patriots, hence their enthusiasm for an armed population. You only have to look around at the state of contemporary western democracies — the deep state; a corrupt, complicit media; anti-Brexit collusion etc — to see that they had a point.

          20

    • #
      Annie

      The inner city greenie twits are the ones who should suffer the loss of food, electricity, medicines, phpnes,transport, etc. They deserve it. I wonder how they think all their sheltered city life is supported, not least where their coffee and soy (yuk) ‘milk’ come from. Brought into being by a wave of Tinkerbell’s wand and conveyed by magic carpet or unicorn-towed sleigh presumably?

      90

    • #
      PeterW

      An oligarchy that is so convinced of its superiority that it feels justified in tyrannising over the rest of us “for our own good”.

      We can’t be trusted to defend ourselves, whether from fire, drought or human predators……

      40

  • #
    AndyG55

    Paris agreement was agreed to in 2015 by Tony Abbot , under certain understandings

    But it was SIGNED by Greg Hunt in April 2016

    It then went to parliament to be ratified.

    Certain people lack basic comprehension skills, and double down on their ineptitude when caught out.

    They are not worth arguing with..

    80

  • #
    pat

    18 Nov: ABC Analysis: Climate change and the economy are linked — it’s time the Morrison Government accepts that
    By Ian Verrender
    (Ian Verrender is the ABC’s business editor. A journalist for more than 30 years, Verrender spent 25 years at The Sydney Morning Herald in a variety of roles including senior writer and business editor. He joined Business Spectator and Eureka Report in 2012 and joined the ABC in 2014)
    Time is a precious commodity. And it is rapidly running out for the Federal Government on two key fronts.
    With fires raging across a parched eastern Australia, exacting an intolerable toll on life and property even before the onset of summer, the Government is facing a growing backlash against its long-held belief that our energy should be generated by antiquated, coal-fired steam engines that pollute the atmosphere and accelerate the onset of global warming.

    Given the prospect of another scorching summer, pressure is likely to build for a coherent, science-based climate and energy policy given the devastating impact climate change is having on the nation and the economy.

    It’s now clear that it is not just rising sea levels that pose challenges for Australia as rural output declines and the economy takes a direct hit — not from drowning, but burning…

    ***It is debatable that even a shift to a completely renewable energy economy would have halted the devastating drought and fires spreading across the nation…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-18/how-climate-change-and-the-economy-go-hand-in-hand/11712548

    ***what a joker!

    50

  • #
    pat

    ABC’s headline on their “Just In” page:

    ‘These fires will not go out’: Dire warning as smoke from Queensland fires reaches New Zealand
    ABC – 18 Nov 2019

    oh…the “Just In” headline left out “for weeks”!

    18 Nov: ABC: Queensland fires ‘will not go out’ for weeks commissioner warns as firefighters continue uphill battle
    By Rebeka Powell, staff
    The fire emergency facing Queensland is still not over and it won’t be for weeks, according to the Acting Fire Commissioner who says it will take a heavy dose of rainfall to get the 70-odd blazes under control…

    “These fires will not go out — even the rainfall that we get that we’ve seen in some of those isolated storms will not be putting them out.
    “If I use the analogy, a bit like our aircraft: the aircrafts are really helpful but they won’t put the fire out. In the same way these showers won’t put the fire out.”…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-18/queensland-fires-will-not-go-out-commissioner-says-esk-pechey/11712420

    20

  • #
    TdeF

    I think it is a real social problem, the isolation of so many in the inner city, cradle to grave on life support from farmers and miners and workers who earn a fraction of their money and work much harder. Consider the life in the city, never seeing real life, animal life, ife and death as it is played out in the world of farms. The smells of the real world, so far from a caffe latte. So far from a tram or a road fit for a Chinese electric electric bicycle. Not some hut with a Nespresso machine. A real life where you live on what you grow and the chores never ever end. There are no long weekends in the country, no weekends at all. And there are only two genders. A farmer will tell you that. Or a vet. And the climate has not changed in a hundred years.

    So it is all made up Climate nonsense, faux science presented as science by Peace prize Nobel laureate Al Gore, who would not know any science at all and likely cannot add or multiply, which shows you how people are being deceived.

    To lock someone up for doing what is right is supposed to happen in Stalin’s Russia or Communist countries, not Australia. This was a thoroughly sad post. But enlightening.

    And then you get the miserable trolls. Ignorant bottom feeding low life.

    80

    • #
      Brian Lund

      TdeF – I have seen hermaphrodites in cattle – too much in-breeding, I guess. I often wonder if that is the cause in humans (discounting too much ha ha Havelock, of course).

      10

  • #
    pat

    what???

    ABC staff push for climate group
    Australian – 17 Nov 2019
    Senior ABC employees are planning to form an ABC-Staff climate crisis advisory group in a bid to report on climate change using solutions…

    17 Nov: Age: CBD Melbourne: Aunty’s climate of panic… and meetings
    By Samantha Hutchinson and Kylar Loussikian
    Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack opened the batting last week with a missive about “raving inner-city lunatics” daring to raise concerns that climate change was worsening bushfires.
    Wait until he hears that ABC staffers — the ultimate lightning rod of conservative ire about inner-city elites — were not only unfazed by this intervention but have appeared to double down.

    Journalists at the public broadcaster awoke to an 8.51am email from Melbourne executive producer Barbara Heggen on Sunday, inquiring after “interest in an ABC-staff climate crisis advisory group”.
    The aim of this new group, Heggen wrote, would be to “gather together the brains trust of the ABC staffers to develop ways to report on and inform Australians about the climate crisis using a solutions journalism approach” and “to report back to ABC management our ideas and strategies for responding to the climate crisis both internally and externally”…

    Meanwhile, ABC PM presenter Linda Mottram was a late entrant to the conversation, writing: “We must report established science, the evidence, and not myth.”…
    https://www.theage.com.au/national/cbd-melbourne-aunty-s-climate-of-panic-and-meetings-20191117-p53bdn.html

    10

    • #
      Serp

      It is absolutely clear from this canvassing for a “staff climate crisis advisory group” that there is no room within the walls of the ABC for anybody who views the climate crisis as being erroneous propaganda espoused only by raving nutjobs, a grouping that used to be referred to as the “lunatic fringe” but which has now been folded into the middle and has become the ABC’s guiding light, an ignis fatuus if ever there was one.

      I suppose the advisory group will officiate as a sort of ABC Stasi and guarantee the climate groupthink is enforced; what a shameful and oppressive environment has been cultivated at our national broadcaster –it’s well past time it was wound up and this “brains trust” sent out into the real world to discover how spurious its knowledge is.

      00

      • #
        AndyG55

        “that used to be referred to as the “lunatic fringe” but which has now been folded into the middle “

        Nope, it is still the lunatic fringe, and it is still the ABC.

        No “middle” involved.

        00

  • #
    pat

    18 Nov: ABC: Teenagers arrested over grassfire in south-west Sydney
    Three teenagers have been arrested in relation to a grassfire which broke out in Sydney’s south-west yesterday.
    A passing motorist alerted authorities to the fire which ignited in bushland off The Northern Road in Harrington Park around 5.30pm…
    Firefighters extinguished the bushfire by 6.15pm and the teenagers were taken to Narellan Police Station for interviews…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-18/nsw-police-arrest-three-teens-over-sydney-grass-fire/11712948

    20

  • #
    Carp

    News from UK

    We are having a General Election in December so the parties are vying to see who can spend most on “preventing” climate change. They should take some advice from King Canute but I doubt if they will.

    Out in front are the Liberal Democrats who are going to spend £100 billion

    Meanwhile, Britain is getting flooded because the government is not spending enough on flood defences. According to The Spectator (UK) for 16 Nov 2019 they will only spend £819 million this year.

    So, spend less than £1 billion on civil engineering and spend £100 billion on Unicorns. That makes sense, doesn’t it?

    20

    • #
      Deano

      Carp – Interesting to hear how the same madness invades your politics too. Spending big $$$ to “prevent climate change” reminds me of primitive tribes throwing virgins into volcanos to appease the sun god and bring them fertile crops. Waste of perfectly good virgins too!

      00

  • #
    Deano

    I notice the ABC article about Szulc only mentions that he illegally cleared native vegetation and carefully avoids pointing out it was for fire risk mitigation. I’m surprised they haven’t mentioned how much CO2 is emitted by fire trucks and water bombing aircraft.

    20

  • #
    Chad

    Jo,
    Many of these topic threads are becoming like National Park forrests……clogged with piles of dead wood flaming comments that are being deliberately ignited to destroy the discussion.
    I suggest its time we had a hazard reduction here,…eliminate the fire starters !
    Im sure you are aware they are deliberate disrupters with no actual interest in the truth.
    Freedom of speech is a luxury that cannot be afforded in modern on line blogs.

    01

  • #
    Lance

    I sympathize wholeheartedly with Mr. Szulc. Similar outrages and abuses of power have occurred in the US as well.

    Under the Obama administration, one farmer was jailed, fined USD 2.8 M, for planting wheat on his own land without obtaining a Permit from the US EPA and US Army Corps of Engineers.

    https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/26137-farmer-fined-2-8-million-for-plowing-his-own-land

    Another was fined for digging a pond to water his cattle.

    https://legalinsurrection.com/2016/05/wyoming-man-scores-major-legal-victory-against-the-epa/

    All of this by bureaucratic overreach which defined “navigable waters” and “wetlands” as anything the EPA and USACOE said they were even if they reversed their own definitions. Talk about abuse of power. The Greenies have run amok.

    This madness has to stop. When the Administrative State can “legislate” their whims upon the Citizenry without meaningful oversight, then elected officials are superfluous to the rule of law. Unelected bureaucrats with the power to ruin people’s lives for exercising their property rights on their own property are an abomination.

    10

  • #
    Peter C

    The only good news is that these invaders are contributing financially to the blog and taking some of the load from the rest of us.

    Most unlikely, I think.

    00

  • #
    Karabar

    Deep State is determined to destroy the Australian food production industry.
    Now they have decided to go after the fertiliser industry (I heard it on the ABC so it must be true).
    No,I don’t make a habit of listening to the propaganda from Ultimo, but the truck radio was tuned to the ABC.
    So the story goes, fertiliser manufacture produces N2O which is released to the atmosphere.
    And SCIENTISTS (they never tell lies, you know) have determined that this invisible laughing gas is 300 times as bad as CO2!
    AND is attacks the ozone layer. (Oh Noze)AND the world will end in 12 months unless fetiliser production ceases immediately.
    It doesn’t say WHO these “scientists” are, but someone should tell them that 300 times zero is SFA.
    Neither is there any revelation of the method used to come up with a factor of 300. I suppose it just FELT good.

    10

    • #

      absorption and emission spectroscopy is/are the methods. It has been used for decades in all sorts of applications from research, astrophysics to industrial applications. If it was wrong we’d be throwing away a lot of things that we thought worked.

      00

    • #
      AndyG55

      As there is NO proven greenhouse warming effect from atmospheric CO2

      300 times ZERO = ZERO

      00

  • #
    jopo

    Something of note.

    BOM have for over 6 months now been warning Australia of the impending DRY Autumn, Winter and Spring.

    All due to abnormally COLDER than usual OCEAN sst’s to the West of Australia.

    BOM have issued fire warnings based on this climate set up. Theuy have been clear with that!.. Peeps need to have a look at the BOM’s Climate and Water reports. it is all there for all to see.

    I have a question.

    Others are blaming CO2 for the horrendous bushfire season. BOM have been clear for months on the extreme dryness we have been encountering due to OCEAN sst’s being way below normal!

    Is CO2 responsible for this unusually COLDER than normal ocean sst’s to the West of Australia.

    Most seem to have missed this!

    10

  • #
    jopo

    BOM have for over 6 months now been warning Australia of the impending DRY Autumn, Winter and Spring.

    All due to abnormally COLDER than usual OCEAN sst’s to the West of Australia.

    BOM have issued fire warnings based on this climate set up. Theuy have been clear with that!.. Peeps need to have a look at the BOM’s Climate and Water reports. it is all there for all to see.

    I have a question.

    Others are blaming CO2 for the horrendous bushfire season. BOM have been clear for months on the extreme dryness we have been encountering due to OCEAN sst’s being way below normal!

    Is CO2 responsible for this unusually COLDER than normal ocean sst’s to the West of Australia.

    Most seem to have missed this!

    20

  • #
    Michael262

    Jo
    These people have done their work, but you just cherry pick and seem happy to see our remaining forest go. As with AGW, pointing out facts means nothing.
    While you play the thumbsey game, scientists are quietly doing their work.

    [I think Jo told you what you need to do. Try doing it instead of complaining. That might get your comments published.] AZ

    013

  • #
    Michael262

    AZ
    As Jo already has seen and dismissed the evidence, then asking for links is her time wasting tactic, she’ll deny it all (without evidence, of course) saying its all corrupted. As a trained scientist, she knows full well she couldn’t do that in the scientific community and instead throws mud from her little blog.
    Jo knows this, yet continues her misinformation.
    [Blah.. blah.. I got nothing, so more Blah.
    No counter evidence, no links to contrary opinion. Just Michael asking us to trust his analysis and knowledge above all else. The misinformation here is from Michael. The intention to deceive is clearly Michael.

    Why do we need to listen to you Michael? ] ED

    015

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    Why don’t you stop bleating and educate yourself.

    Or is that too much like hard work.

    KK

    60

  • #
    william x

    Michael, which remaining forest will go? Do we only have the one left?

    40

  • #
  • #
    Another Ian

    That would spoil his tantie

    40

  • #
    AndyG55

    broken thread, KK, #40 has changed. ;-)

    20

  • #
    TdeF

    Comments very much like Climate Models. Garbage in, garbage out. No real science involved in either. Real scientists are skeptics, by definition in the image of Rene Descartes who believed nothing until it was proven. Cogito ergo sum. Not this nonsense.

    60

  • #
    Peter C

    Michael262 is the price we all pay for free speech.

    40

  • #
    Bill in Oz

    I am bewildered.
    I want to red thumb Mike
    & Green thumb
    The moderator !
    How can I do both ?

    20

  • #
    el gordo

    So we are all standing out in the hallway because Michael is a prat.

    Just found this fascinating story, they still don’t know why the glacial cycles changed from 40,000 years to 100,00 years. CO2 is not implicated.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03199-8

    70

  • #
    Another Ian

    Just in time for the 2019 competition

    “It’s time to run the prat of the year 2019 contest.”

    https://thepointman.wordpress.com/2019/11/15/84361/

    20

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Yes PeterC he is pushing it .

    10

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    A price too far.

    There’s no ethical moral or humane justification for putting up with that.

    Part of our current problem is that people accept the idea that everyone should be heard.

    That’s not good thinking because it is perceived by the invaders as either stupidity or weakness or indecisiveness.

    Tolerance of the intolerable is sooo 2019.

    KK

    21

  • #
  • #
    el gordo

    We need a better quality troll, but they are as scarce as hen’s teeth.

    40

  • #
    robert rosicka

    KK we don’t want censorship of ideas contrary to ours , that idea is for the lefty organisations like the ABC , Guardian and Conversation .

    20

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    You get the troll,you,deserve. Lift your game to unlock a higher level /sarc

    16

  • #
    AndyG55

    says the low-level troll

    30

  • #
    Kalm Keith

    Hi Robert,

    My comments are never about censorship of ideas.

    The primary invaders are making posts which contain no ideas, just mindless padding which even they couldn’t explain or justify.

    Their posts are simply activism with either grandstanding or blog sabotage as the driver.

    In the larger world described in Jo’s posts the activists who inhabit all levels of government and government services are seen as never being challenged or held accountable for their actions or “mistakes”.

    Why doesn’t this blog lead the way and hold those intent on disrupting or abusing others to account.

    The only good news is that these invaders are contributing financially to the blog and taking some of the load from the rest of us.

    KK

    40

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