JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Midweek Unthreaded

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Midweek Unthreaded, 9.4 out of 10 based on 19 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/y2uhol5m

141 comments to Midweek Unthreaded

  • #
    Another Ian

    “Environmental stories are a bit like cockroaches. If you spot one, it usually means there are hundreds more lurking under the skirting.”

    “Delingpole: University Beef Ban Won’t Save the Planet – But WILL Make Students Stupid and Ignorant”

    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/13/goldsmiths-meat-ban-wont-save-the-planet/

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      • #
        RicDre

        “climate-hustler-and-partner-in-beyond-meats-largest-investor-al-gore-moves-to-profit-big-from-anti-meat-drive”

        I haven’t tried anything from “Beyond Meats”, but the other day I was at a Burger King and noticed they had the “Impossible Whopper” on the menu so I decided to give it a try. My verdict: The texture is all wrong, it didn’t taste like beef and the bun seemed much bigger than on a regular Whopper (though I have to concede that its probably the same size bun but its just so hard to differentiate by taste between the bun and the “Impossible Meat”) In summary, you would probably be better off taste-wise by ordering a bun with lettuce, tomato, onion, pickle, mustard and ketchup and skip the the Impossible Meat patty as it adds little to the taste of the sandwich.

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        • #
          Dennis

          I assume that extensive testing has been carried out on that product to ensure that there is no possibility of health problems for consumers?

          80

          • #
            William

            There was an article in the Sydney telegraph the other day explaining how fake meat is made. To sum it up briefly, think Frankenstein beef patties. As well, there are no health benefits from eating.

            Apparently tests in the US found cancer causing chemicals used to strip proteins from fat were still present in finished products.

            80

          • #
            yarpos

            Our ABC ran a piece of eating insects yet again. After re-inventing composting with maggots yet another bad hair academic was spruiking the delights of eating crickets.

            The future is so bright , I can just see myself watching the vastly exciting Formula E car races , while munching crickets washed down with soy milk. If the power is on that day that is.

            40

      • #
        Geoffrey Williams

        Very true . . .
        GeoffW

        30

  • #
    ColA

    No one was more surprised about the suicide of Jeffery Epstein than Jeffery Epstein!!

    The normal cry has been “follow the money”, but those more cynical say “follow the suicides!!”

    141

  • #
    Ian1946

    Wholesale electricity more than 3 times more expensive in Vic, NSW, and Tas than they are In QLD. Why would that be? Surely not becaus they have more windmills, would that not make the price lower as they are cheaper?

    220

    • #
      Ian1946

      Forgot the /sarc

      90

    • #
      Dennis

      The Australian reports today that electricity pricing in Victoria (the fastest transitioning to unreliable energy state now) are likely to rise by 50 per cent next summer.

      230

      • #
        yarpos

        Price is the least of it, the are at ever increasing risk of blackouts yet only react to it with more installations of what causes the blackouts. Pure on narrative genius all the way into the smoking crater.

        160

    • #
      Geoffrey Williams

      And they’re aiming for 50% reneables by 2030 !!
      Pay more get less . . .
      It’s a joke that the people of Victoria have not yet seen through.
      Pethaps because they are the but end of the joke.
      GeoffW

      170

      • #
        David Wojick

        The UK hit just below 50% just before the blackout. It is now reported that they had three “near misses” in the last few months. Lack of spinning inertia is the problem.

        220

        • #
          Dennis

          Wind and solar, feeder transmission lines, back up generators, storage, taxpayer and consumer subsidies and more.

          Power stations located on the electricity grid are of course stand alone reliable generators of low cost electricity.

          As it is often observed, why try to fix something that isn’t broken?

          160

          • #
            yarpos

            yep all those goodies you list are all contributing to the “downward pressure on prices” our Energy Minister rabbits on about but never delivers. As someone said on another forum, my foot puts downward pressure on the footpath also, that doesnt mean it ever moves.

            130

        • #
          ColA

          David,

          Lack of spinning inertia is the problem.

          More like a lack of engaged intelligence!

          30

    • #

      Redundant sign: ‘Will the last person leaving the building please turn out the lights.’

      50

    • #
      yarpos

      we had to make a lot of extra green electricity and ship it to QLD so Bob Brown could ethically charge his EV convoy which is stranded at the Adani site. Its an expensive business. We expect costs to decrease as the convoy edges south a couple of hundred kms at a time. Once over the QLD borders we also wont have to pay the special tax on southern fwits who tell QLDers what to do.

      00

  • #
    Sambar

    New land reclamation scheme in the Pacific islands region. If you want bigger islands just dump Aussie dollars into any lagoons. Islands increase in size and we have a place to dispose of our reduced value plastic currency

    130

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Then they would complain about “plastic in the ocean”….

      You just cant please some people…..

      Shows you how far our society has been distorted by smartphone-disseminated climate nonsense……

      110

    • #
      Dennis

      The aid grants will help the islanders in power to relocate to a better life.

      60

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Sambar:

      I see a solution. Burn all our rubbish and generate electricity. Scrub all particulate from the hot exhaust. Cool the residue (about 1% by weight), compress it and dump it in a lagoon.
      We get the electricity, they get extra land (slowly) and the extra CO2 (not mentioned in doco) will compensate for the cooler climate.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dei_duocsu4

      80

      • #
        Greg in NZ

        Proof Tuvalu is growing – even though Saint Cindy hasn’t even tackled one conversation yet:

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/396622/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-to-tackle-climate-change-conversation-in-tuvalu

        On the weekend, Radio NZ’s Pacific Reporter, Jamie Tahana, stated Tuvalu’s “highest point is little more than four metres, its widest point about the same” (narrowest/widest, meh, who cares about details). However today, RNZ’s Political Reporter, Yvette McCullough (also in Tuvalu on a taxpayer-funded mid-winter tropical island junket), wrote:

        “Funafuti is about 20 metres wide at its narrowest point, and not much more than 400 metres at its widest”. The what?

        Four to 400? Therefore, before even one conversation has been tackled by our international jet-setting cover-girl president-princess PM, the coral atoll of Enele Sopoaga has ‘expanded’, grown – got fatter – by a hundred-fold. Truly CCCrapastrophic!

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      • #
        beowulf

        And build garbage-mountains on every low-lying Pacific island as refuges during tsunamis and cyclones. If we leave the tops on the plastic bottles the whole island will float up as the seas rise 100m over the next century. Attenborough won’t have anything to complain about. Cargo cult garbage disposal. They can thank us later. Should be a boon for an island like Tuvalu whose only exports are sea shells, coconuts and whinging.

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    • #
      glen Michel

      Another inducement for our memdicant island friends to stay out of Chinese clutches. Sea level rises, like, whatever.

      60

      • #
        Greg in NZ

        Aussie dollars… cargo cult… Chinese clutches… sounds like a case of:

        Clutch Cargo: Kangaroo Express
        Clutch Cargo, a writer and pilot who is sent around the world on dangerous assignments!
        Accompanying him are his young ward Spinner and his pet dachshund, Paddlefoot.

        Join our intrepid heroes as they travel Downunder by steam train towards Cloncurry… toot-toot!

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWPoUGrJUuo

        When childhood cartoons are more believable than duly elected *public servants* you know today’s world is a farce beyond comedy. Won’t somebody think of the children!!!

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    “Cutting down your emissions, including not opening your coal mines, that is the thing we want to see.” – Tuvalu’s Prime Minister Enele Sopoaga.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-13/australias-climate-funding-pacific-islands-forum-tuvalu/11408930

    I’d like to see all fossil-fuelled travel to and from Tuvalu stopped first before they get the $500M.

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    • #
      Dennis

      I wonder if he has spoken to China about cutting emissions?

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    • #
      PeterS

      How about Morrison grow a spine and tell them to go jump? The money would be better spend part-funding a new coal fired power station here. The Pacific Islanders can then go to China to get their “donations” who happen to be building hundreds of new coal fired power stations. Hypocrites the lot of them.

      210

      • #
        OriginalStece

        If they cry “climate wolf”!! Will a polar bear turn up to help?

        / sarc

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        • #
          PeterS

          The type of response we perhaps give them is the same as the one used the movie Argo when someone asked what the word meant. Of course Morrison would not do such a thing as he’s above all that. The problem though is the Pacific Islanders are not so he’s dealing with a sticky situation where he can’t win. So he should just tell them to jump into the sea rather than pretending he’s cares for their future in some pretend climate change catastrophe. If he’s so willing to give them the money then how about doing the same to all the residents living too close to the sea who would also be flooded? How about he sets up a fund to relocate millions of people to a safer place inland? Oh of course he would because he doesn’t believe it will happen. Looks like we only get hypocrites for PM these days.

          60

      • #
        glen Michel

        Yep Peter the age of the lower Idiocene moves on to its preordained conclusion. Australia can’t get a damned thing right because it is controlled by gormless morons. On another topic,the fishing up here in NQ is going well with mixed reef species and pelagics. More updates later.
        T

        120

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    They weren’t afraid of coal during the bronze age. They treasured it …

    “Coal and bronze belt buckles found in Terezin (top) and Ala-Tei burial grounds.”

    Race against time and waves as Russian archaeologists rescue Siberia’s remarkable Atlantis

    https://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/race-against-time-and-waves-as-russian-archaeologists-rescue-siberias-remarkable-atlantis/

    Scott Morrison: “This is coal. Don’t be afraid.”-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KoMeJB_ywY

    60

    • #
      beowulf

      The trouble is that one stunt in parliament doesn’t make Morrison a genuine believer in the importance of coal. I’m sure it was the first coal he had ever laid eyes on and his lackeys had to explain to the buffoon what the black stuff was. His enthusiasm for coal has been lacking ever since.

      80

  • #

    Ahh!

    The Ekka has started in Brisbane, that yearly RNA Exhibition.

    Here’s a liitle snippet from the history of the Ekka.

    It first started in 1876 as The Royal Queensland Show.

    Opening day was attended by 17000 People and the population of Brisbane was only 22000 at that time.

    Men attended in their suits and ladies wore their finest garments.

    The very first ‘showbag’ was offered free to all visitors to the show….. a bag of coal!

    Ahh! The good old days, eh!

    Tony.

    210

  • #
    Dennis

    Yesterday The Australian published an article: Giant Batteries Supercharge Energy Store.

    “A global wave of investment is poised to transform the market for renewable energy in coming years making it more practical and affordable to store wind and solar power and deploy it where needed.”

    “Polluting coal-fired power stations” are mentioned, after all the article is marketing hyperbole and puffery obviously an advertisement for the renewable lobby.

    But how about this …

    “Utilities around the globe deployed a record 6.1 gigawatt hours of energy storage capacity in 2018, ENOUGH TO POWER 50,000 HOUSEHOLDS IN A DAY”, according to Wood Mackenzie.

    That is relatively small (I add minuscule) but spending on high-capacity batteries is set to grow sixfold to US$71 billion by 2024, according to Wood Mackenzie.

    Deployment of utility grade battery capacity

    South Korea just over 1,500 MWh
    China just over 1,000 MWh
    US 750 MWh
    Australia just over 500 MWh
    Germany just under 500 MWh
    Japan just under 500 MWh
    Britain just under 500 MWh
    Canada about 250 MWh
    India about 125 MWh
    Rest of World about 250 MWh

    So the global battery storage capacity could power a Sydney suburb for one day?

    Wind and solar farms become reliable, just spend many billions of dollars extra to achieve it.

    120

    • #
      RickWill

      You may not realise this but spending gazillions on grid batteries will make grid power more expensive.

      I did a calculation for the LCOE for dispatrchable wind energy yesterday. Based on the dispatchable output of wind being ZERO, the per unit LCOE of wind is INFINITE. Installing batteries does reduce the LCOE. The lowest cost option in Australia results in LCOE for dispatchable wind/battery of AUD400/MWh. About 4 times the current price and 10 times the price of a decade ago. Given time and more batteries we will witness the wholesale price approach this value. eCon Musk stands to redefine the term filthy rich in his lifetime.

      130

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        RickWill:

        Did you allow for the coming steep incredible drop in the cost of batteries which we are told are coming real soon by the gullible. Perhaps we should wait until that happens?

        110

        • #
          David Wojick

          Given a stagnant high pressure system the wind can not blow enough to generate real power for a week (which is also a heat wave with peak demand). At today’s prices the batteries needed would cost about one hundred times what the wind farm cost. Clearly impossible, even if the prices dropped 90%.

          Plus batteries are massive chemical energy generators, not electronics. There are physical limited to how cheap they can get. And then there is all that mining.

          100

        • #
          RickWill

          Did you allow for the coming steep incredible drop in the cost of batteries

          In a word – No.

          There has been a slight drop in battery price in USD over the last decade. Australia is rapidly destroying productivity by astronomical energy costs resulting in the AUD rapidly losing value. The loss of value in the AUD is occurring way faster than the drop in battery price so hoping for a reduction in battery price in AUD terms is just that – hopeful. Cells I paid AUD154 in 2012 are now selling for AUD160 – maybe a slight reduction in real terms. That works out at 50c/Wh without any charging, balancing or inverter. You can buy a commercial LG Chem Li battery for AUD7495; not sure what that includes. That works out at 75c/Wh. Would require about 2000 full cycles to recover its cost assuming the cost of energy going in would otherwise be not collected. Realistically you would not want to design for more than average cycle of 50% so 4000 of those to recover the cost, making payback longer than 10 years at present prices. With electricity price rises guaranteed, maybe about 7 years payback.

          With the current path toward an ever increasing intermittent supplied grid it will not be long before the economic choice is to make and store your own electricity even without battery prices falling. There is no benefit of scale with grid supplied intermittents so grid prices will soon overtake the cost of making your own.

          I am getting close to being self-sustaining from energy perspective since I installed the wood burner for heating but still using gas for water heating. The circulating fan in the wood burner uses 60W compared with 600W on the central gas heater. The burner warms the living area with cosy steady heat but does not have the grunt of the central heating to warm the entire house. My property does not produce enough wood to be self-sustaining but I built up another years supply and have scavenged 3 years supply from my son’s place from a huge Cyprus pine felled, cut up and stored before he purchased the property.

          The really important message that needs to get through to decision makers is that the LCOE for dispatchable power from a wind or solar subsidy farm is INFINITE. No matter how many there are, the guaranteed output is ZERO. The guaranteed dispatchable output of a fossil fired generator is 100% of rating typically 90% of the time.

          100

          • #
            Peter C

            Rick,

            How are the solar cells performing.

            You said that you had to go back to the Electricity Grid about 3 weeks ago, on your stand alone system. Since then we have had mostly cloudy weather.

            I am assuming that the need for a back up generator would be for a longer period this year than your previous average calculations

            30

            • #
              RickWill

              I allowed the battery to recover for one day while the load was on-grid. Late June is always the worst in Melbourne as the sun is lowest then. The string of wet days in August was not an issue as the sun is higher. Even with cloud there is still charge going in.

              In mid June there were three days with just over 1kWh of sunlight at the nearest BoM site:
              http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/cdio/weatherData/av?p_nccObsCode=193&p_display_type=dailyDataFile&p_startYear=&p_c=&p_stn_num=086299
              Also note on the 12th that there was one day recording just 0.5kWh of sunlight for the entire day. Given the fickle nature of cloud cover I expect my roof experienced consecutive days of less than 1kWh in the middle of the month. Lots of rain in early August but sun is higher and any breaks in cloud gives more intense sunlight.

              If I were operating off-grid, the most economic option is to have a small petrol generator. It would also make sense to set the panels to maximise winter input. Solar powered street lights around our area have panels set at around 60 degrees. My steepest panels are 45 degrees. Panels set at a steep angle cast a long shadow so there needs to be large separation between rows of panels.

              10

              • #
                yarpos

                Our neighbour built his garage with 45 degree roofline for his solar panels. Looks like a church, even has a little portico the front. Known along the street as “the chapel”

                00

        • #
          OriginalStece

          Or the possible insurance costs from these giant lithium AA cells catching fire?

          50

  • #
    RicDre

    “Utilities around the globe deployed a record 6.1 gigawatt hours of energy storage capacity…”

    Hmm, energy storage capacity sounds like a pretty all-encompassing term, does it also include things like pumped hydro?

    80

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  • #
    TdeF

    The Great Barrier Reef is not dead, is not dying and is not even on life support, federal Environment Minister Sussan Ley has declared after her first official visit to the World Heritage-listed site.

    Can we, the people, have our $444million back stolen by the Turnbulls?

    Are we, the people, paying $6Bn for his uncosted hairbrained previously rejected scheme he has called Snowy II?

    And when will the Federal government stop forcing electricity retailers to steal money from our electricity bills for foreign windmill and solar panel owners?

    And what about the $400Million Julie Bishop gave to her Climate friends? What are we getting for that gift? And the gifts to the Clinton Foundation, those anti Russian paragons of virtue who sold 1/4 of the US uranium reserve to Russia?

    Who gave any government to treat our community money as their own?

    200

    • #
      Dennis

      And what about the taxpayer funded gift during the Howard Government years to a mate who claimed he could seed clouds to produce rain, $100 million from memory?

      80

      • #
        Dennis

        And the $300 million, Macquarie Bank Leasing $100 million of that taxpayer’s funding, for promotion of electric vehicles to fleet operators?

        Long before adequate infrastructure for recharging EV is in place or new power stations to increase generating capacity?

        81

    • #

      Had a quick look at AU debt clock. Gov debt (Fed & State) is now just $ 14 bn short of ONE TRILLION (borrowing approx. $ 10,000/ sec). WOW! and we are continuing to hand out money to the shysters. I will say it again and again. AU gov leaders are members of the Globalist Socialist Elite. No politician who honestly represent Australians will actively destroy a country from within. Since the “miracle” election (bullsh*t): no new dams or coal fired power stations approved, ABC propaganda, cultural marxism’s march through our institutions and mass immigration cruising along. AU priorities are what? Abortion and “THE VOICE”. Bunch of crooks running this outfit.

      110

  • #
    David Wojick

    My latest on science and alarmism:
    https://www.cfact.org/2019/08/13/videos-can-be-science/

    Science is a body of discourse, not a body of journals controlled by liberal academics.

    Here is the beginning:
    In the lengthy comment discussion under my CFACT article ” Guardian discovers skeptical climate videos, urges censorship”someone said ” YouTube videos are not science.”
    https://www.cfact.org/2019/07/30/guardian-discovers-skeptical-climate-videos-urges-censorship/
    This is very wrong and it highlights an artful dodge often used by climate alarmists. This is the bogus idea that what is published in academic journals is all there is to science. Journals are the “publish” in “publish or perish” which refers to the academic promotion system. But science is a different critter altogether.
    First of all, almost all academics are liberals who accept the questionable hypothesis that humans are causing dangerous climate change. These people dominate (literally) the journals. They are the editors and peer reviewers, also called “pal reviewers.” So the journals are in effect part of the alarmist movement.
    Second, science is an ongoing discourse that extends far beyond these liberal journals. That is the wonderful thing about science — anyone can play. History is full of examples where non-academics made major discoveries. That only liberal academics understand science is a deep fraud indeed, but that is the implicit claim.

    There is more in the article.

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    • #
      TdeF

      There are only two groups. The consensus and the deniers. Take meteorologists, 50% of whom do not believe in man made Global Warming. At least half are therefore deniers. It’s not about a majority and I suspect that even if 99% of people agreed that man made Global Warming was wrong, they would still be the ‘Deniers’. That’s because the consensus is a political view of the extreme left, not science at all. Otherwise how is it that almost 100% of Hollywood and the Democrats back man made Global Warming as absolute truth none are scientists and the people who actually know about the weather disagree. And Hollywood and the Democrats and the MSM hate Donald Trump so much they are deranged. It is a visceral hatred. Trump is Lucifer. In fact if Trump had really done anything wrong, even farted in an elevator, we would know about it. The Clintons on the other hand can do no wrong, no matter how much we and Hollywood know they did. It’s a consensus and that defeats all facts.

      John Cook in his cooked up ’97% of scientists’ sent a survey to 10,000 climate scientists, mainly meteorologists. When he didn’t get the answer he wanted, he eliminated meteorologists from his results. He simply changed the criteria and eliminated 99% of the respondents, ending up with a mere 100 of whom 97 agreed with him and he had the fame he wanted and his consensus. His consensus was one cherry from an entire tree.

      70

      • #

        ‘Forensic enquiry:’ seeking to establis the real data explanation of a questionable phenomenon.
        ‘Politicised enquiry:’seeking to establish the raison d’etat explanation of a questionable phenomenon.

        20

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    • #
      Dennis

      I am aware of a business previously located in Sydney, Australia, that operates very high heat electric furnaces that moved to India to avoid the ever increasing cost of electricity and government regulations compliance costs.

      The director’s research led them to India where to their delight they found much lower operating costs including electricity and rental of factory premises.

      The transition to renewable energy and other hoax global warming caused by CO2 economic vandalism is the main reason why the Australian economy is struggling.

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      • #
        nb

        ‘The transition to renewable energy and other hoax global warming caused by CO2 economic vandalism is the main reason why the Australian economy is struggling.’
        Seems odd to me that the trade of politician should have sunk so low, should have become so destructive. Odd that people vote for their own penury. It is shocking, the level of trust people place in authority figures, how those authority figures abuse that trust, and how people refuse to see how they are being duped and led to destruction. Quite baffling.

        30

    • #
      yarpos

      Interesting in light of the current recycling debacle that a previously succesful plastic recycling operation in Adelaide had to shut its door due to energy cost increases.

      Seems to be a never ending supply of numpties who think they can have it all and will consistently let the perfect get in the way of the good.

      90

      • #
        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        G’day Y,
        “perfect”? I reckon that needs a qualifier, something like “someone’s imperfect view of what’s perfect” perhaps?

        And “good”? I’d prefer “what works”.

        Cheers
        Dave B

        10

        • #
          yarpos

          yeah agree basically. I used to see in all the time in corporate life , with people reinventing wheels and spending lotso $ on getting that last 10% of functionality when a “good enough” solution was readily available. You dont build careers and make yourself a hero that way though.

          10

  • #
    pat

    Graeme No.3 – comment #1.1 above – from the NoTricksZone link:

    (excerpt) Generation Investment Management is connected to Kleiner Perkins, where former Vice President Al Gore is one of its partners and advisors.
    Who’s Kleiner Perkins? It turns out they are Beyond Meat’s biggest investor, according to bizjournals.com here…

    another advisor:

    Oct 20-24 2019: Gartner: IT Symposium Xpo: Orlando, Florida
    Speaker Bio
    Guest keynote: General Colin L. Powell, Former Secretary of State
    Powell is a strategic adviser at Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, the renowned Silicon Valley venture capital firm. He serves on the Board of Directors of Bloom Energy, an alternative energy company that provides unique on-site power generation systems utilizing an innovative new fuel cell technology…
    Tuesday, October 22, 2019 / 09:00 AM – 09:45 AM
    Guest Keynote: Diplomacy: Persuasion, Trust & Values…
    https://www.kleinerperkins.com/people/colin-powell/

    23 Apr: Fortune: How the Kleiner Perkins Empire Fell
    Once the very embodiment of Silicon Valley venture capital, the storied firm has suffered a two-decade losing streak. It missed the era’s hottest companies, took a disastrous detour into renewable energy, and failed to groom its next-generation leadership. Can it ever regain the old Kleiner magic?
    By Polina Marinova
    (A version of this article appears in the May 2019 issue of Fortune with the headline “Kleiner Perkins: A Fallen Empire.”)
    The firm’s ablest investor for two decades, though his name wasn’t on the letterhead, was John Doerr. A former Intel salesman, Doerr joined Kleiner in 1980 and over time became its de facto leader…

    Doerr was so powerful, in fact, that he was able to pivot Kleiner’s entire thrust away from the Internet and toward his latest passion project: renewable energy companies he believed would be the next important wave of tech investing. Doerr was a prominent Democratic fundraiser and pal of former Vice President Al Gore, whom Doerr made a ­Kleiner partner. Between 2004 and 2009, the firm had invested $630 million across 54 “clean tech” companies, and 12 of its 22 partners spent some or all of their time on so-called green investments…

    The firm’s heart may have been in the right place, but its investments flopped. Some, like electric-car maker Fisker Automotive, went bankrupt. Others, like fuel-cell manufacturer Bloom Energy, took 16 years from Kleiner’s investment in 2002 to go public. The result was a tarnished brand at a time Kleiner’s competitors were killing it with investments in the digital economy…

    On the one hand, Kleiner had a penchant for collecting famous names who nevertheless had no investing experience—or didn’t stick around through troubled times. Former Secretary of State Colin Powell was a “strategic adviser.” Gore was a full-on investor…
    https://fortune.com/longform/kleiner-perkins-vc-fall/

    TONS of info Kleiner Perkins/John Doerr/Gore/Democrats/etc etc etc:

    18 Dec 2018: GreenExplored.com: Colin Powell Loses A Million Dollars
    Since we did our presentation at the Heritage Foundation on September 21, 2018, Bloom Energy has lost 60% of their market cap and this is a loss of $2 billion…
    hy did Obama protect the Bloomdogglers?? Maybe so that he could have Doerr help build his library in Chicago? Why did Schumer, Coons and Carper reinstate the 30% investment tax credit for the Bloomdoggle? Maybe because the Doerrs contributed $1.75 million to Senate Democrats. Soon we hope that GREEN LIES MATTER to all Americans and we have the rule of law and equal justice…
    http://www.greenexplored.com/2018/

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  • #
    David Maddison

    I’m surprised that there’s little criticism of this insane “green” project.

    https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/victoria-powers-on-with-world-first-hydrogen-project/

    The plan is to turn brown coal from Victoriastan into liquid hydrogen to use as a transport fuel in Japan and sequester the CO2 in holes in the ground in Victoria.

    Obviously it would be more energetically favourable to burn the coal directly and release the CO2 into the atmosphere to fertilise plants.

    Naturally there are vast amounts of taxpayer funds involved for all the snouts in the trough.

    A quite good rant about this can be found at the following link but the guy is somewhat obnoxious and anti-Trump as well – he reveals unacceptable biases but manages to make some decent points nevertheless.

    https://youtu.be/lMhoQSiuHEw

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    • #
      David Maddison

      Note that the video dates from the time of the Turnbull regime when the project was first proposed but the project was confirmed as per the Victoriastan Premier website as of July 2019.

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      Dennis

      IPCC Climate Change agendas have become wealth creation schemes.

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      David Wojick

      Insane is correct. Most of the potential energy in coal is from the carbon, which you are burying. Plus it takes a lot of energy to do the separation, which Oz has to provide. But if the Japanese will pay enough to drive hydrogen powered cars (boomers?) it might be good business.

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        OriginalStece

        Maybe use ammonia as a hydrogen carrier?

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          David Maddison

          That’s doable and CSIRO has developed a process for it but how much energy does it take to create the ammonia in the first place?

          And ammonia is highly toxic, not exactly an ideal fuel.

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          Philip Mulholland

          Maybe use ammonia as a hydrogen carrier?

          I had to look that one up because at first it appeared that the hydrogen might be carried dissolved in liquid ammonia?
          A brief search found this:-
          Ammonia as a Hydrogen Carrier

          Transporting hydrogen as ammonia therefore, has the potential to dramatically reduce the transport cost component of hydrogen fuel at the filling station.

          So they are talking about chemically binding the hydrogen to nitrogen.

          Why not bind the hydrogen to oxygen instead and transport the hydrogen in a safe chemically stable liquid form?
          Oh, is there a problem with that?
          Well here is another solution: -
          Chemically bind the hydrogen to carbon extracted from the air and transport the resulting material as an easily combustible light molecular weight volatile liquid?

          /sarc

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      RickWill

      Obviously it would be more energetically favourable to burn the coal directly and release the CO2 into the atmosphere to fertilise plants.

      This is only true if the energy can be used in Australia. When transport to market is taken into account to provide energy in Japan, there is some prospect that the process can turn a vast useless resource into a valuable resource.

      Almost all efforts to add value to Australian resources have failed. Aluminium production has achieved that because it is congealed electricity at very high specific energy that benefited from Australia’s low electricity cost. However this industry is on life support in Australia due to the vandalism occurring with the electricity network; allowing intermittent generators to connect to a reliable stable grid is wreaking economic havoc.

      The basic gasification of coal reaction is almost energy neutral. The liquefaction of hydrogen consumes about 30% of the energy in the coal. If the CO2 is liquified, that will be another significant portion of the coal energy but that diminishes the availability of atmospheric CO2 to support plant life. The anti carbon fad should pass as reality strikes.

      Once the liquid H2 is produced, it has 10 times the specific heat of the lignite it came from. Even accounting for the weight of containment vessels, it is far lower cost to transport for the energy contained than the lignite it was produced from. Given the high cost of shipping to Japan, being energy intensive, it would be reasonable to expect the energy cost of liquefaction would be easily offset by the saving in transport; requiring 1/10th of the mass compared with shipping lignite for the same energy content.

      Liquid hydrogen requires similar containment to LNG but the hydrogen has almost three times the specific heat content in combustion as LNG. Toyota’s fuel cell hydrogen car consumes 3.7l/100km and has a range of 500km.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=148&v=zx8bJkTCyMk

      I would not be surprised if hydrogen powered transport becomes the most economic means of using coal in the transport chain. I think batteries are at a dead end in transport. Coal, as fuel for power generation is despised and intermittents on the grid are forcing the cost of coal generation ever higher. Think how easy it is to sell the concept of converting dirty coal to super green and clean hydrogen to then produce JUST water from a vehicle exhaust.

      I would not want to live in the vicinity of a liquid hydrogen storage facility but these do exist and, on the plus side, the low density gas disperses quickly. On the other hand hydrogen has an extremely wide flammable range and only slightly smaller explosive range.

      Since Victoria’s aluminium plants are dead, it seems reasonable to find a simpler path to get value from the vast lignite reserves, some 430,000,000,000 tonnes. I suspect gasification of coal and liquefaction of hydrogen is a trivial pursuit compared with congealing electricity in the form of aluminium. Doing it economically in Australia will no doubt present non-trivial challenges.

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        Graeme No.3

        RickWill:

        “The basic gasification of coal reaction is almost energy neutral” not what I heard. The reaction between coal (carbon) and water is endothermic, i.e. for trolls REQUIRES ENERGY TO PROCEED. There is nothing new about the process, it started on an Industrial scale in England in 1878.
        To get that energy they burnt lots of coal until it was red hot, then cut off the air flow and pumped in steam. The reaction of hot carbon with steam generated hydrogen, CO2 AND carbon monoxide. As it did so the hot coal would cool down and the reaction would slow down. In practice they had two hot coal beds side by side, one being heated with air for reaction, the other being cooled by steam but giving off a usable product.
        Separating out most of the CO2 with water scrubbing cooled the coal gas so it could be stored and piped elsewhere. NOTE the carbon monoxide which was the reason that coal gas was poisonous. Yes, it would burn and generate some heat.
        But this process MUST involve lots of energy input, not only to drive the reaction with heat, then to separate out the CO2, cool it then liquify it, then pump it underground for “safe” storage.
        Then the separation of the carbon monoxide would require more energy, although you might recover a deal of that by burning it to CO2. Then you would have to dispose of that CO2.
        Then you are going to have to cool the hydrogen down below MINUS 255℃ to liquify it for storage and shipment, and that would require lots of energy. You then have to ship it through the tropics – which I am reliably informed are quite warm – which means more energy for continued refrigeration. (Just allowing cooling by evaporation may be possible, but I doubt that it would be economic given the likely cost of the fuel).
        And I don’t think that LNG carriers would do the job, partly because of the lower temperature required and the need to get around hydrogen embrittlement of the tank metal.
        I hear that the process involves lignite (brown coal) which is already wet and a special catalyst, but that doesn’t mean that less energy would be required. As far as I am concerned the major effect of the catalyst would be to extract money from gullible governments, and who really needs that if some people can get $440 million out of thin air with very little effort.

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          Graeme No.3

          Rick:

          I am sure that you realise that the net result is lots of brown coal being burnt and generating lots of CO2 IN AUSTRALIA, whereas the Japanese will be getting a nice warm virtuous glow from that ‘clean’ hydrogen. Australia becomes an international pariah as our CO2 emissions skyrocket. (CO2 sequestration on this scale is unproven, costly and energy consuming)**.
          Whether they are prepared to pay a good price for the hydrogen is another matter.

          ** necessary? Enter PF frothing.

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          RickWill

          The gasification reaction is close to energy neutral when the off gas is separated and the CO combusted to provide reaction heat for the water reaction. The process will need to produce clean H2 so the CO must be separated.

          Modern materials will enable insulated reaction vessels and heat exchangers will be used to use heat from reaction products to heat reaction inputs. I expect the pilot stage will be used to test materials and lift the overall efficiency.

          Sequestering CO2 would be environmental vandalism. Producing more in Australia would be valuable for our biomass although, once released, it disperses rapidly. It appears there is a gradual shift toward the view that atmospheric CO2 is beneficial. Extra atmospheric CO2 is proving to be overwhelmingly beneficial.

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        Geoffrey Williams

        Liquid Hydrogen service station – where would you put the damn things and how would you get the liquid hydrogen there? Next to the village store or your local supermarket? No way. And simply having to fill up at such a facility would frighten me. You say that you wouldn’t like to live near such a facility and nor would I. If these things are already in Japan, I could be wrong …
        GeoffW

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          Kinky Keith

          Geoff, no problems with hydrogen storage.

          All you gotta do is transfer the gas to a new container every seven days.

          Then dump the used tank/recycle: this is a moderate cost when you consider that the planet is being saved.

          The raw material, H2O, is very cheep/cheap so no dramas.

          KK

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    Serp

    Quadrant Online has alerted its visitors to the Victorian City of Yarra posting an advertisement for a Climate Emergency Offer at salary band 6 which is $87,105.55 to $94,943.91; I’m tempted to apply…

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    pat

    the “Sun King” is back, but ABC fails to mention in the summary that he lost his billions – tho it’s in the audio:

    AUDIO: 5min56sec: 14 Aug: ABC Breakfast: Maritime Museum to unveil new lightweight, flexible solar panels
    Presenter: Patricia Karvelas
    Australia’s largest installation of new lightweight and flexible solar panels will be officially unveiled today at the National Maritime Museum in Sydney.
    The technology has been developed by solar researcher and entrepreneur Dr Zhengrong Shi.
    Dr Shi is a Chinese-Australian citizen, and after studying and developing solar technology in Australia, ***he famously became the world’s first “solar billionaire” when the company he founded in China listed on the New York stock exchange in 2005.
    Guest: Dr Zhengrong Shi, founder, SunMan Co Ltd
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/maritime-museum-to-unveil-new-lightweight,-flexible-solar-panels/11412054

    14 Aug: RenewEconomy: “Sun King” returns to solar market with ultra light panels on Maritime Museum
    by Michael Mazengarb
    Dr Shi Zhengrong, who for a time was the world’s first clean energy billionaire, on Wednesday opens a 235kW solar installation at Sydney’s Maritime Museum, using innovative light weight solar modules that Dr Shi hopes can tap into a massive unserved market for light weight rooftop solar power in Australia…

    Dr Shi: “We are entering the subsidy free arena, and solar has become a cheap source of electricity. Solar has become a cheap source of electricity. In that context, we ask what is next?”
    “If you come to this ‘outdoor furniture’ kind of market, it is really dependent on the aesthetics and design. We developed the eArche to try and crack this new market, as its made with no glass and can be integrated into almost anything,” Dr Shi told RenewEconomy…
    “The large-scale solar farm are starting to face problems, from marginal loss factors and curtailment. The distributed market makes more sense and is becoming more popular. But if you look at commercial or industrial buildings, many of these buildings can’t handle the weight. We see this as the low hanging fruit.”…

    The 235kW installation will supply around a quarter of the power consumption of the museum’s Wharf 7 building in Darling Harbour…
    SunMan Energy has received a $6.6 million investment from the Southern Cross Renewable Energy Fund, which is a partnership between the Softbank China Venture Capital and the Australian Renewable Energy Agency, with each group tipping in $3.3 million…
    https://reneweconomy.com.au/sun-king-returns-to-solar-market-with-ultra-light-panels-on-maritime-museum-28176/

    21 Mar 2013: Forbes: Onetime Solar Billionaire Shi Zhengrong Suffers Blow As Suntech Power Collapses
    by Laura He
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurahe/2013/03/21/onetime-solar-billionaire-shi-zhengrong-suffers-blow-as-suntech-power-collpases/#7ccde85c1924

    PIC: 14 Aug: ARENA.gov.au: Lightweight solar panels power up Maritime Museum
    A 235 kW array of 812 panels have been installed at the Museum’s Wharf 7 Maritime Heritage Centre building in Darling Harbour…
    ARENA and the Fund’s co-investor Softbank China Venture Capital have each contributed $3.3 million to the Fund’s investment…
    The installation has also been made possible through the Australian Government’s Modernisation Fund.
    https://arena.gov.au/news/lightweight-solar-panels-power-up-maritime-museum/

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    pat

    more PR for solar:

    AUDIO: 4min26sec: 14 Aug: ABC The World Today: ‘Sun King’ unveils Australia’s largest lightweight solar set-up
    By Gavin Coote
    A business leader once dubbed the Sun King for his role in developing the solar industry has declared Australia could become a clean energy superpower.
    Dr Zhenrong Shi was in Sydney this morning to unveil what is Australia’s largest lightweight solar panel unit on a historic building which is unable to host normal, heavier panels
    Dr Shi who was trained in Australia .. says it’s disappointing the technology wasn’t able to be developed here due to red tape and slow bureaucratic processes.
    Guests:
    Dr Shi Zhenrong, Chinese-Australian solar business leader
    Kevin Sumption, director and chief executive officer Australian National Maritime Museum
    Darren Miller, chief executive, Australian Renewable Energy Agency
    https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/worldtoday/sun-king-unveils-australias-largest-lightweight-solar-set-up/11413050

    and more sympathy for ABC’s Pacific friends:

    AUDIO: 3min46sec: 14 Aug: ABC The World Today: Pacific talks threaten to break down over climate change
    By Alexandra Beech
    But the talks are already threatening to break down, with Australia and the island nations at loggerheads over the future of coal mining and greenhouse gas emissions.
    And the Federal Government says Australia won’t budge from its position.
    Featured:
    Enele Sopoaga, Prime Minister of Tuvalu
    Alex Hawke, Australia’s Minister for the Pacific
    https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/worldtoday/pacific-talks-threaten-to-break-down-over-climate-change/11412996

    AUDIO: 13min16sec: 14 Aug: ABC: Tuvalu PM warns Australia ‘we must act urgently’ on climate change
    Presenter: Patricia Karvelas
    But Tuvalu’s Prime Minister Enele Sopoaga says no matter how much money is on the table, it doesn’t give Australia the excuse not to do the right thing when it comes to reducing emissions.
    Guest: Enele Sopoaga, Tuvalu Prime Minister
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/tuvalu-pm-warns-we-must-act-urgently-on-climate-change/11411946

    AUDIO: 9min28sec: 14 Aug: ABC Breakfast: Alex Hawke deflects Tuvalu’s calls for Australian climate action
    Presenter: Patricia Karvelas
    Guest: Alex Hawke, Minister for International Development and the Pacific, and Assistant Defence Minister
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/alex-hawke-deflects-tuvalus-calls-for-australian-climate-action/11412092

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    pat

    14 Aug: RenewEconomy: Australia demands Paris targets be removed from Pacific Islands communique
    by Giles Parkinson
    Climate Home News reported late (LINK) on Tuesday that Australia is attempting to water down the declaration by removing or “suppressing” references to the climate “crisis”, to the 1.5°C aspirational target from Paris, to carbon neutrality, and a ban on new coal plants and phasing out of fossil fuel subsidies…

    Australia set the tone for the event by sending junior minister Alex Hawke – who has the portfolio for international development and the Pacific, but who is one of the many climate skeptics in the Coalition’s ranks – to do the preparatory work ahead of the forum.
    Hawke has a history of qoting climate science deniers, as he did in attacking Tim Flannery in this speech, talking of “climate alarmism” in one, describing the Clean Enegy Finance Corp as “Orwellian” and declaring in another speech: “To say climate change is human induced is to overblow and overstate our role in the scheme of the universe.”
    In that speech, Hawke went on to describe pro-climate action politicians as “amateur scientists, wannabe weather readers… people who like to come in here and make the most grandiose predictions about all sorts of scientific matters without even a basic understanding of the periodic table.”…

    Australia also asked that a paragraph that calls for “an immediate global ban on the construction of new coal plants and coal mines” and the “urgent phase out of all fossil fuel subsidies” be deleted, suggested that the issue is “not a shared forum priority.”…READ ALL
    https://reneweconomy.com.au/australia-demands-paris-targets-be-removed-from-pacific-islands-communique-36291/

    14 Aug: GreenLeft: Australia ‘tips petrol on the fire’ at Pacific Islands Forum
    by Pip Hinman
    Australia’s bullying behaviour was in full view again at the Pacific Islands Forum (PIF) this week in Tuvalu, as it ignored pleas to take climate change seriously.
    Phil Glendenning, who is attending the PIF for the Edmund Rice Centre, told Green Left Weekly on August 13: “When someone’s house is burning, you’re not being a good neighbour by tipping more petrol on the flames.”
    “It doesn’t matter if you have a hose handy while you’re pouring the petrol,” he added, a reference to Australia’s pretence at concern…

    Glendenning said that Australia has also refused the Pacific Islands’ call for a moratorium on coal…
    The list of big powers attending has grown to include China, Taiwan, Britain and the United States, because as the US-China trade war deepens, this part of the world has become a new strategic hot spot.
    The big powers are much less interested in the major security issue the Pacific Island nations want action on — climate change — than they are in competing military and trade partnerships.

    While Sopoaga and Fijian Prime Minister Frank Bainimarama, a former military leader, keep repeating that climate change is “our biggest threat”, this has fallen on deaf ears…

    “Australia’s relationship with the Pacific cannot be bought. True partnership means doing everything we can to secure our friends’ survival. This means that Australia needs to listen to Pacific leaders, substantially increase Australia’s commitment to reduce greenhouse emissions under the Paris agreement and urgently transition out of coal,” Glendenning said.
    https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/australia-tips-petrol-fire-pacific-islands-forum

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      pat

      what does Glendinning know about CAGW?

      Edmund Rice Centre: Our Director: Phil Glendinning
      Phil has been the Director of the Edmund Rice Centre since its inception in 1996 and is currently the President of the Refugee Council of Australia.
      With a background in education, law, political science, and overseas aid and development, today he is primarily involved in human right advocacy and education, peace and reconciliation work, raising awareness of the impact of climate change on marginalised peoples.

      His work for the rights of Indigenous people saw him co-found Australians for Native Title and Reconciliation (ANTaR) in 1997, and for ten years he was National President.
      He has served on the Boards of the Australian Council for Social Service (ACOSS), various committees of the Australian Council for Overseas Aid, and the Centre for an Ethical Society…

      In the 2017 Australia Day Honours, Phil was appointed a Member of the Order of Australia (AM) for significant service to the community through social welfare organisations, as an advocate for human rights, and to education.
      https://www.erc.org.au/who_we_are

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      David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

      Great news Pat,
      In fact I reckon it’s the best since President Trump announced he was pulling out of Paris.
      But, dare I say it? It’s about bloody time.
      Cheers
      Dave B

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    pat

    on ABC “Death Matters?”: coal-fired plants get 4 or 5 mentions. according to Dr. Vicki, we’re all suffering from pollution.
    13min08sec: when asked how we compare with other countries, Dr. Vicki doesn’t say, but gives the impression we’re as bad as everywhere else:

    AUDIO: 17min32sec: 14 Aug: ABC Life Matters: How clean is the air you breathe?
    Presenter: Hillary Harper
    Guests:
    GP Dr Vicki Kotsirilos is a member of Doctors for the Environment Australia
    Martin Wurt is President of the Maribyrnong Truck Action Group.
    They want action on airborne pollutants, which they say are making us sick.
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/lifematters/how-clean-is-the-air-you-breathe/11400612

    NUMBEO: Pollution Index for Country 2019 Mid-Year
    #101 OF 109: Australia
    https://www.numbeo.com/pollution/rankings_by_country.jsp

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    David Maddison

    Is our side (real climate science supporters) making any progress?

    Every day we get more ridiculous claims of doom and ridiculous “renewables” schemes, the latest insanity being pushed by Finkel being brown coal to liquid hydrogen nonsense.

    Everthing we say is falling on deaf ears, it seems.

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      Serp

      Quite simply there are too few of us for our views to gain any traction in the community of boosters and charlatans behind the renewables racket.

      Where are the fearless journalists of old exposing the criminal misuse of our Latrobe Valley brown coal as advocated by Finkel?

      I imagine that for the consortium to make a profit on this hare-brained scheme the coal is being given away, a far cry from the triple royalties imposed on Hazelwood to shut it down.

      As to pumping the carbon dioxide by-product underground that’s a Lake Nyos Cameroon 1986 disaster in waiting; when, inevitably, the gas escapes, being heavier than air (44 versus 29), it will cling to the ground and suffocate every oxygen breathing organism in its vicinity. On that basis alone carbon dioxide geosequestration should be outlawed. Finkel needs to sling his hook, after all he’s just another Turnbull placeman along with Schott, Zibelman and too many others to bring to mind at the time of writing…

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        el gordo

        ‘Quite simply there are too few of us for our views to gain any traction in the community … ‘

        Sky in the regions has changed everything, Morrison’s unwindable election victory is proof positive that the Murdocracy still has the power to change political culture.

        Out in the bush its Sky up against the ABC and they are talking a different language, ultimately the truth will expose the propaganda and the game will be up. We are not alone.

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    pat

    13 Aug: Breitbart: New York Times: Lawns Are Symbols of Racism and Bad for Global Warming
    by Penny Starr
    While most Americans are spending time this summer enjoying the sun in the comfort of their houses’ yards, the New York Times is out with a new exposé on how lawn care is problematic, once viewed through the lens of social justice.
    Lawns are contributing to pollution and climate change, asserts narrator David Botti, and their origins are far from woke, in a seven-minute video on the history of American lawns.

    Botti says lawns are part of the “colonizing of America,” which transformed the landscape from “pristine wilderness” to “identical rows of manicured nature.”…
    https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2019/08/13/new-york-times-lawns-are-symbols-of-racism-and-bad-for-global-warming/

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      nb

      The absurd jamming of every human endeavour into an ideological box was prevalent in the public discourse during the 1970s. We are back to it.
      These tides of lunacy are a really interesting phenomenon, but scary. During the dormant periods, mad ideas quietly mutate, and slowly mestastisize in universities. Understanding this process as that of an infection is useful.
      A study of past periods of madness would be fascinating. I know there is, for example, ‘The Madness of Crowds’ but that discusses discrete events without providing a linking narrative. I don’t know of any work that examines history from the perspective of the ongoing rise and fall of tides of illogic. I suppose, in fact, human activities have been built on the illogical. It’d be interesting to trace these.

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    pat

    Reuters’ Colin Packham clearly doesn’t think the Pacific Island countries should be demanding China transition from coal!

    14 Aug: Reuters: Australian Prime Minister set to woo Pacific leaders at annual forum
    by Colin Packham
    In June, Australia approved a new coal mine in Queensland state by India’s Adani Enterprises that is expected to produce 8-10 million tonnes of thermal coal a year.
    Morrison’s strong backing of the mine was seen as a factor in his government’s surprise re-election in May.

    Along with economic aid and loans, ***China’s support for tackling global warming is seen aiding its drive to win allies and influence.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pacific-forum-australia/australian-prime-minister-set-to-woo-pacific-leaders-at-annual-forum-idUSKCN1V327B

    13 Aug: Reuters: Australia should reduce emissions, coal mining: Pacific leaders
    by Colin Packham
    Along with economic aid and loans, ***China’s support for tackling global warming is seen aiding its drive to win allies and influence in the Pacific region…

    12 Aug: Reuters: Australia, under fire for coal, pledges $339 mln for Pacific climate change
    by Colin Packham
    Already scoring success with economic aid donations, ***China’s support for tackling global warming has aided its drive to win allies and influence in a region home to more than one-third of nations that recognise Taiwan, which Beijing regards as a wayward province with no right to state-to-state ties…

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      el gordo

      ‘Australia will not agree to any PIF statement demanding tougher climate goals and Morrison would make this clear to Pacific leaders, Minister for the Pacific Alex Hawke said.’

      Sea level rise has slowed, no need for high walls, but more cyclone shelters would be helpful.

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      yarpos

      The Pacific Isands should demand the immediate cessation of “fossil fuelled” airline flights to their countries. The sail way or no way!

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    Zane

    A huge transformer was moved by road at night last week to a wind farm in western Victoria. The Dundonnell wind farm is being developed by Tilt Renewables and is due to open in 2020. A $560 million project, 340 MW nameplate, 80 Vestas turbines spread across 4500 hectares, underground cabling, connected to the grid.

    Actual wind generation in Victoria is usually about 10 – 20% of capacity. Over a year in Germany their 30000 turbines produced about 16% of nameplate. So applying that factor to Vic would mean a cost of $560 million for only 54 MW of real electricity produced on average. Being intermittent, unreliable power that destabilizes the rest of the grid.

    Dan Andrews obviously failed finance. The State of Victoria and Snowy Hydro are contacted to buy 87% of the power from Dundonnell.

    By comparison a 1000 MW HELE coal plant would cost about $2.2 billion. In 2015 in Qatar Mitsubishi of Japan agreed to build them a 2500 MW gas-fired power plant for US$2.5 billion.

    At Dundonnell prices, to produce say 1000 MW of wind electricity would thus cost in the area of $10 billion of capital expenditure.

    Of course the wind itself costs nothing, but the turbines will not last anywhere near the 50 years plus of a fossil fuel generator. Thus the depreciation expense is far more.

    Renewables are economic suicide. Dan is pushing for a 50% target, while the more rabid activists want 100% and zero carbon.

    No doubt the Greens will try to ban diamonds next. Zero carbon means zero – including diamonds.

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      nb

      Socialism does not require that you pass finance. Finance must bend to socialism. Truth is not found in reality, but in ideology.

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      yarpos

      None of what you said matters. Dan and Lily will be long gone when the excrement hits the fan, they will just do whatever they think will win the next election. When the inevitable event happens, they will be collecting their nice parliamentary pensions and flitting between assorted meetings of the boards they will inevitably score. They just need to pace it so they dont get caught in the chair like Weatherdill.

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    Tides of Mudgee

    Spectacular footage of a Greenland glacier calving. Make sure sound is on. Runs for 30 minutes and is truly awesome and much less gory than watching a cow calving. ToM

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=glacier+calving+video&view=detail&mid=22EFFC480341B48F50EF22EFFC480341B48F50EF&FORM=VIRE

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    Brett

    Google Insider Turns Over 950 Pages Of Docs And Laptop To DOJ

    A former Google insider claiming the company created algorithms to hide its political bias within artificial intelligence platforms – in effect targeting particular words, phrases and contexts to promote, alter, reference or manipulate perceptions of Internet content – delivered roughly 950 pages of documents to the Department of Justice’s Antitrust division Friday…

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    TdeF

    Having a lawn is now racist and causes Global Warming, according to the New York Times. It’s about time journalists Woke Up to how silly this is. Meanhwhile Bernie Sanders is channeling Bill Shorten in promising to reverse all of Trump’s tax cuts. And Fauxcohontas demands “Affordable, Gender-Affirming’ Health Care for Transgender People”. These are people from another universe. It’s all about transgender, alien, #metoo rights and Climate Change. As said, another universe.

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    Serp

    And now the ABC is decrying the “extreme right” Bolsonaro’s program to cut funding to the most deeply leftist infiltrated university departments blithely omitting to mention that Brazil’s electors installed him because the continually growing corruption of the preceding regimes had become intolerable.

    That’s the ABC’s version of balance I guess; somebody needs to have a serious talk with Ita.

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    Analitik

    The Texas (ERCOT) grid is teterring on the brink with the low winds (all those wind farms running at low capacity) and high temperature (loads of aircon usage) bringing the reserve to perilously low levels and driving electricity prices through the roof.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-13/texas-power-prices-briefly-surpass-9-000-amid-searing-heat
    https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Energy-emergency-declared-amidst-Texas-heat-wave-540437911.html

    What are the chances of large scale urban blackouts as experienced in Melbourne and Adelaide last January?

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    Richard Ilfeld

    And Texas joins the club
    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/brink-blackouts-texas-makes-case-052950761.html

    The more “FREE!!!” solar and wind fuel one uses, the higher one’s energy prices get.
    Let’s call it Gore’s law – a happy pun on several levels.

    Californians sit back and suffer.
    Historically, Texans not so much.

    Will they build more fossil fuel plants, or has Texas been fully Californicated?

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    toorightmate

    ’tis middle of summer in Merry England.
    Mid day.
    14C and raining.
    Just how much proof to you jokers need to convince you that Global Warming is here with a vengeance?

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    tom0mason

    HERE IS a little image of what the future may hold (before the pixel equalization team ‘adjust’ it).

    [Originally from the 'Truth and Reconciliation' pages of the great socialist science publication The People's Cube]

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    TdeF

    In a previous post I spruiked the virtues of UHVDC, allowing the connection of grids of continents. China has done this. The advtange the Chinese have in everything is that they are replacing nothing , so they can pick the best technologies from the West.

    For vast Australia, it is a great solution for a national grid, not just a high loss version of what we have but over greater distances.

    A good question was how UHVDC improved matters with the expensive interconnectors which broke the connection, especially to South Australia. They want a second interconnector so they can bring down the NSW grid as well?

    With a UHVDC grid, if a windfarm shuts down, so do the other windfarms but the rest of the system can stay up and you do not get a complete black out. AC is the wrong technology for grids or even generators. The essential synchronization is near impossible. This was Edison’s argument and he was right. A tiny error in frequency, phase, amplitude and down comes the pack of cards. It can take a day to build it all again, which makes the interruption of a single windfarm not just a nuisance but catastrophic. All the other generators have to disconnect. However the UHVDC does not have to disconnect as it cannot be harmed so easily.

    Nikola Tesla won the battle over Edison because AC could be tranformed. Synchronization is a massive practical problem. Consider the advance of semiconductors in the PCs and laptops of the last 20 years, there is no transformer from 240 volt to 12Vdc. Computers run on 240volt but there is no lumping iron cored transformer. It is done easily with semiconductors. The same with AC to UHVDC. Giant semiconductor electronics, as with electric cars which connect to kilovolt charging points. Plus far better insulators

    A huge advantage is that as Volts go up x10, current goes down and losses are I^2 so they drop x 100. No losses over immense distances.

    If we have to accept windfarms onto a National grid we never needed, the problems they generate should not be exported to other states. The fact that the whole of the UK went down is unacceptable, even with massive potential from French nuclear. The windfarms should be totally isolated by UHVDC. In fact it might be preferable if windfarms produced DC for local consumption and distribution instead of feeding AC to the grid. Then windfarms would not all have to shut. They could use a lower voltage DC grid. They could also supply local communities and farms. No catastrophic shut down.

    We in Australia with our huge distances need to look at the whole issue of a grid as forced on the states by Canberra when even a single state does not have guaranteed stable and reliable supply. At the very least, DC windmills.

    For the money stolen from our electricity bills each year would be better spent on building a grid which worked than more windmill farms. Better still, do not steal it. It is only the world’s highest hidden carbon tax and the money largely leaves the country and we get to own nothing. That is just theft.

    A National AC grid forced on the states is equally thoughtless. It is noticeable when Queenslanders are paying 1/3 the price for local electricity than people in the South with their wind farms.
    Our Victorian electricity prices have gone up 900% since 2000 to pay for the world’s worst and most expensive electricity system and we don’t even own it. Meanwhile the generator/retailers like AGL are desperate to shut down coal, because the cash is in windmills which get so much money for just turning, even if they do not sell the electricity. The prospect of pushing electricity prices up further has them salivating and no one is screaming because they do not understand it is all theft.

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      Graeme No.3

      Firstly, not all of the UK went down. The problem seems to have been caused by over reliance on wind and was confined to parts of England.
      Secondly, how would wind farms supply local communities? They cannot supply reliably and need backup.
      Thirdly, the SA wish for another interconnector is stupid. The idea is that excess electricity from wind (when prices are low, even zero) will be sent to parts of NSW with lowish demand, and when the wind doesn’t blow and NSW is struggling for electricity (higher prices) it will send it over long distances (with losses) to SA.
      Yes, I agree that a national grid is unnecessary and possibly harmful in that it allows State Premiers to pursue ideological nonsense and blame the results on other States.

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        David Wojick

        All of England did not go down but huge areas far apart did. Yorkshire, the Northwest, Wales and the Southeast all lost hundreds of thousands of customers. So in a sense it covered all of England and Wales, just not everyone there.

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        yarpos

        ah yes but the parts of England that went down were in the South and thats all anyone cares about

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      Analitik

      Your arguments for DC interconnections is based on the false premise that frequency disturbances would be avoided with these. The loss of a high capacity interconnector, relative to the demand of the connected AC grid, when it is heavily loaded will ALWAYS cause a major frequency disturbance (a dip) that can then trip local generators.

      This is the nature of AC grids. You would have to go to an entirely DC grid throughout to avoid the issue and that is simply not economically possible. The costs for transforming large amounts of power from one DC voltage to another is not the (relatively) trivial exercise is a computer power supply (which actually DOES contain an iron core transformer but one made smaller by rapidly switching DC to create high frequency AC, hence the term “switched mode” power supply). Plus PC and other switched mode power supplies fail far more often than the “lumping iron cored transformers” that you deride. And then there is the issue of switching – without the zero point of AC, DC circuits are far more prone to arcing which is definitely not a trivial issue as current increases. There are many good reasons for issuing AC power distribution.

      Australia had an interconnected grid along the East and South coasts for a long time, well before renewables, without issue. It is a good thing because the interconnections reduce the cost of coping with short period demand peaks, plus it helped deal with planned maintenance, all by reducing the required local peak generation capacity.

      Yes, there are inherent stability issues but these are due to the possible transmission disturbance approaching the quarter wavelength and Australian grid operators knew how to control it. Grid engineers from across the globe used to be amazed at how such a sparse grid with clustered generation stayed connected and came down to study our operations.

      Where DC interconnections make sense is for the transmission of large amounts of power over large distances and especially where it must cross under a body of water. The advantage is purely one of lower transmission losses (ie higher efficiency).

      But being DC does not magically reduce the frequency dip effect if the interconnection is lost. That is purely a function of the percentage of power bring supplied, relative to the demand (since there will be correspondingly less local generation online).

      Please do some more study on this before expounding on the benefits of DC

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