JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

Late….

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Weekend Unthreaded, 7.6 out of 10 based on 41 ratings

331 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    Dianeh

    Hi Jo.

    I enjoyed watching you on Outsiders this morning. Always interesting and entertaining.

    You didnt answer Rohan’s question – “if you had five minutes with Scott Morrison, what would you say to him?”

    Please consider putting up a post that answers that question. I and many others would love to know what you would say to The PM.

    Cheers

    Diane

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      • #
        Annie

        Sorry Moso…I thought I touched green. I’m a bit dozy atm!

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      • #
        GD

        Just say COAL

        Queensland did.

        Johannes Leak’s excellent cartoon.

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        • #
          Annie

          That is excellent.

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        • #
          sophocles

          Great cartoon. And who own those terrible — but so well draughted expressions? :-P

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          • #
            sophocles

            Annie: EU election results are out — you probably already know so I’ll just give figures for everyone else.
            Turnout c. 50% for the first time.

            Brexit has won 9 out of 10 regions (London appears to be the holdout).
            See Telegraph’s maps and analysis for now.

            Brexit: 33.3%
            LD: 20.9%
            LAB: 14.6%
            GRN: 12.5%
            CON: 8.8%
            UKIP: 1.7%
            OTH: 1%

            Total: c. 91 %, Results for Scotland (and Northern Ireland (?) ) yet to come.
            A clear victory for Brexit, and a wipeout for the Conservative (CON) party. 23 MEPs

            Farage is doing a great “Cheshire Cat™ imitation.
            The first words Jean-Claude Juncker will not be looking forward to will likely be: “ I’m back.

            In some ways, it has a similar look to the Australian election …

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            • #
              Annie

              Yes, seen, thanks Sophocles.

              Now wait for all the remoaner interpretations of the results and the tactics in and out of Parliament to give the winning Leave voters anything but Leave.

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              • #
                sophocles

                We don’t have to wait: the remoaner interpretations are already flying. The LibDems came in second, with less than two thirds of the Brexit Party’s vote. That’s a large margin.

                Farage is like a kiddy in a brand-new huge sandpit well stocked with every possible sandpit toy and being very sure to remind everyone that his party is only six weeks old. You can hear that grating up certain spines. I think I’m going to find the first session of the EU `Parliament’ interesting, if not predictable:
                Hello everybody: I’m Baaaack! You had your chance to get rid of me. It’s backfired badly. Hasn’t it?”

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      • #

        M

        O/T but bamboo production made it to the Qld ABC Country Hour recently.

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        • #

          Encouraging stuff, Ian.

          While bamboo fabrics, organic or not, (much from moso) aren’t really bamboo any more, just rayon made with lots of chemicals in China, they’re still good for many purposes. I reckon for underwear bamboo’s hard to beat, and for bedding it’s got lots of advantages (though I’m big on linen and hemp for that).

          Bamboo in its natural state is terrific if you have people about who are used to working with it. Here in Oz even very creative type builders and chippies don’t know where to start. It’s all going to take time…

          The hemp scene is exciting. I saw where some handy WA types have come up with a machine for processing hemp faster. Takes an Aussie. Hope hemp loses the stoner image and miracle food claims and can go mainstream soon. Fabrics from flax, nettle, hemp…bring ‘em on, I say.

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          • #

            I’ve used the bamboo socks. Eventually they get felted, lose elasticity and want to walk down into the boots

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            • #
              OriginalSteve

              Uh oh…bamboo solar panels?

              An industry based around supposed “sustainability” seems remarkably…well….er…..um…..unsustainable….

              https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-27/australias-obsession-with-cheap-solar-derailing-market-insiders/11139856

              “Rooftop solar industry veterans say Australia has become a dumping ground for poor-quality solar products and some are questioning the regulatory oversight of household rooftop solar installers and products.

              Key points:
              * An audit found 1.2 per cent of rooftop solar installations have been inspected by the Clean Energy Regulator
              * The regulator’s inspections found one in six solar installations were “substandard”, and about one in 30 were “unsafe”
              * Based on the sample, the audit found there would be tens of thousands of “unsafe” installations

              “An audit of the Clean Energy Regulator (CER) by the Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) late last year found it is likely there are potentially tens of thousands of badly installed and even unsafe systems on rooftops.

              “Not only are these systems risky, it is likely they are not producing the clean energy that Australia’s renewable energy target relies on.

              “About one in five Australian homes has installed rooftop solar.

              “The ANAO found 1.2 per cent of rooftop solar installations have been inspected by the regulator.

              “The regulator’s inspections found that about one in six solar installations was “substandard”, and about one in 30 was “unsafe”.

              “Based on the sample, the audit found there would be hundreds of thousands of substandard installations and tens of thousands of unsafe solar systems across the country.

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    • #
      Yonniestone

      Found a Facebook link with Jo’s appearance https://www.facebook.com/SkyNewsAustralia/

      and https://www.skynews.com.au

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  • #
    Reed Coray

    This comment is to Peter Fitzroy.

    Using Joanne’s blog as the vehicle, we are in the midst of an ongoing discussion regarding (as you put it): “…accept that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and accept the manner in which it works.” Although we have exchanged a few comments that set the ground rules for our discussion, as far as I am aware you have not posted your arguments for atmospheric greenhouse-gas induced earth surface warming. If you have posted your arguments, I apologize and request you give me the URL.

    I have posted my arguments in regards to this issue. Bottom line, I argue atmospheric gases (greenhouse or otherwise) that individually or collectively (a) trap heat, (b) increase radiative forcing, or (c) “back-radiate” electromagnetic energy to the earth’s surface may or may not increase the earth’s surface temperature. As such, in my opinion, anyone who uses only those arguments in any combination to prove that atmospheric greenhouse gases must increase the earth’s surface temperature is in error.

    As a blog comment, my post (http://joannenova.com.au/2019/04/midweek-unthreaded-67/#comment-2140302) is extremely long; as a document conveying my thoughts, average length. In any event, it is what it is. I await both your arguments and your critique of my post.

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      AndyG55

      ““…accept that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and accept the manner in which it works.” “

      CO2 is a “greenhouse gas” ONLY in that it is used in greenhouses to boost plant growth

      As an atmospheric radiative gas, the term “greenhouse gas” is totally erroneous.

      Atmospheric CO2 does NOT cause the atmosphere to block convection, or to block radiation.

      It absorbs a tiny thin sliver, then releases it to the remaining 99.96% of the atmosphere through molecular collision, which happen a couple of magnitudes faster than any sort of re-emittance. Thus it is just another form of energy transfer from the warmer Earth surface to the much colder upper atmosphere.

      Any “mechanism” that PF has come up with in the past, for atmospheric warming by increased atmospheric CO2, is PURE FANTASY.

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        Curious George

        “molecular collision, which happen a couple of magnitudes faster than any sort of re-emittance”. It depends on pressure and temperature, which both vary dramatically with height.

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          AndyG55

          In the lower 10km of the atmosphere, collisional transfer of that tiny amount of CO2 absorbed is at least a magnitude faster.

          Once the atmosphere thins, CO2 can actually re-emit, mainly in the direction of the main energy transfer flux.

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          • #
            Greg Cavanagh

            Many years ago someone on WUWT calculated the delay of a photon of light leaving the earths surface into space after all the molecule to molecule hits and redirects. Total time was 5 milliseconds.

            I do think this greenhouse theory needs some revisiting.

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          • #
            Kinky Keith

            KinkyKeith
            February 17, 2018 at 9:20 pm
            The illusion of debate is a good title to prompt assessment of the Man Made Global Warming Meme.

            There is only one truth that needs to be substantiated and that should be obvious, however the waters have been muddied so much using irrelevant factors that most of the public and all of the politicians just don’t know.

            The basic concept of CAGW, put out by the warming community, is that CO2 is a heat trapping gas.

            The whole scam is based on one mechanism: the idea that carbon dioxide is a heat trapping, “greenhouse” gas.

            I have said that twice for a reason: it is the core concept on which CAGW stands or falls.

            IT IS NOT A HEAT TRAPPING GAS and must resolve to equilibrate with gases surrounding it: Instantly.

            It is known and accepted by all scientists with basic university degrees, there is no mechanism by which CO2 can adversely affect the atmospheric temperature.

            Why has this point never been examined in court?

            We should no longer debate the warmer deliberations because we need to go to the core of the issue: that CO2 cannot act in the way they claim.

            This is the scientific truth of the matter.

            There never was and never will be any human caused Global Warming.

            We need to start attacking this point.

            Real science is quite clear: CO2 is NOT a heat trapping gas any more than any other gas and cannot be responsible for changes in Earth’s atmospheric temperature.

            All other debate around global warming is irrelevant, pointless and deceitful when this fact is ignored.

            Why is this fact not used as the basis of a court action against all of the “misdirection” of public funds justified by association with the CAGW scam.

            Warmer advocats have avoided facing the question on the basic mechanism by endlessly debating non issues and have given the Illusion of Debate while hiding from the

            real science.

            KK

            http://joannenova.com.au/2018/02/the-illusion-of-debate-a-history-of-the-climate-issue-part-2-2009-2011/#comment-1983276

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            • #
              Bobl

              It’s quite strange, CO2 IS a radiator gas Keith and it does diffuse certain IR wavelengths, in that sense it is a greenhouse gas. The problem is that if you get more of it the total IR emitted is greater, including the emission to space, this in theory increases the cooling at the stratosphere transferring the energy to earth and space. The increase in temperature difference will increase the energy transport by convection (decreasing the lapse rate) nullifying the effect of the increased emission. So overall there is no effect or a cooling effect.

              It’s not a particularly effective one because it’s non condensing and so it can’t really change air pressure like water can.

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                Kinky Keith

                Yes, while CO2 may absorb ground origin IR heading to space, it doesn’t hold or “trap” that energy for more than a millisecond or so.

                It must equilibrate with surrounding gas molecules thus untrapping the energy.

                The host air parcel now expands and rises, convection.

                Atmospheric water, natural origin CO2 and Human Origin CO2 all operate in the same wave band and even if this mechanism is real Human Origin CO2 is quantitatively irrelevant anyhow.

                There’s a suggestion that gas impact with heated ground has a part to play.

                Whatever the primary mechanism I think we are safe in saying that Human Origin CO2 doesn’t Heat the atmosphere.

                Alarmists have taken an element of the atmospheric process and used it to mislead.

                The overall guiding thermodynamic principles have been ignored:
                1. Energy must follow the temperature gradient down, and
                2. Energy degrades as it moves from its source, the Sun, and progresses to our surface. It’s “virtue” is degradation high energy UV progressively down to re-emerge from the surface as pw IR.

                “Back radiation” ?????? Highly unlikely.

                And then the Sun goes down.

                And then for the physics buffs, at what temperatures does CO2 actually have the capacity to absorb and emit energy.

                Basic principles say that CO2 doesn’t trap heat and is essentially part of the convection process.
                At night with clear skies it’s possible that IR
                May have a clear run to space at the speed of light.
                Our biggest worry here on Earth is cooling.
                It may end us.

                KK

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              • #
                Kinky Keith

                “degraded”

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      • #
        Kinky Keith

        That’s a brilliant summary Andy.

        KK

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          el gordo

          Yeah its well thought out, but can we say with any certainty that the excessive CO2 in the atmosphere is a result of sink failure?

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          • #
            Kinky Keith

            What excessive CO2?

            What sink failure?

            What do you mean?

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            • #
              el gordo

              https://climate.nasa.gov/climate_resources/24/graphic-the-relentless-rise-of-carbon-dioxide/

              ‘What do you mean?’

              If we can disprove the NASA graph, then it would be a great leap forward.

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              • #
                Kinky Keith

                OK

                So I looked at NASAs graph.

                Can you see anything wrong with it?

                Who would have believed that NASA was so scientifically inept as to splice together data from two very different sources.
                It would be obvious to any scientist that a compressed ice record is going to be an average of CO2 levels.

                Additionally, the variation since 1950 is chicken feed in the scheme of daily life.
                Over crop fields there are enormous variations during the 24 hour cycle with CO2 levels getting up to 1200 or so.

                That’s the cycle of life and there are two things we need to prosper:

                More heat from the Sun and less thermal loss to space.

                More atmospheric CO2.

                That the once great NASA is stooping this low is truly sad.

                But please don’t get angry with nasa for misleading people, they need the jobs and are just following instructions.

                KK

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              • #
                el gordo

                I put this up the other day, scroll down and you’ll see the graph which shows a CO2 spike during the MWP and then takes a slide after the 1300 AD Event.

                https://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/12/26/co2-ice-cores-vs-plant-stomata/

                To resurrect during the Renaissance.

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              • #
                el gordo

                The other side have reduced the 800 year CO2 lag to 200 years and if we aren’t careful they’ll roll us.

                So I hypothesise that warmer temperatures during the MWP and RWP produced elevated CO2 levels to match what is happening today. On every occasion there is an imbalance which will eventually correct itself.

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      • #
        Robert Christopher

        From nearly every discussion on the subject:
        ‘Since carbon dioxide is a green house gas, it traps more heat energy.’

        If this is not true (which I think) how do we explain why the surface of Venus is so hot?

        It is often stated to back up the evilness of atmospheric plant food.

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        • #
          Reed Coray

          Robert, I don’t know why the surface of Venus is so hot. There could be thousands of reasons–e.g., the ideal gas law, proximity to the sun, lack of surface water, etc may explain it. I’m not saying these phenomena are the reason; but they and/others not related to the concept of “trapping heat” might be. Having said that, I don’t see why a rebuttal of the AGW community’s argument that atmospheric greenhouse gases increase the earth’s surface temperature requires an explanation of why Venus is hot. Of interest, yes; required, no. Their arguments regarding the earth/earth-atmosphere system must stand on their own merits. Even if no one has identified valid reasons why Venus is so hot other than the property that greenhouse gases trap heat (which I doubt–both that greenhouse gases trap heat and that no one has identified unrelated reasons), to conclude that the AGW community’s arguments are valid because we can’t explain why Venus is so hot is ludicrous. If the logic is: “Venus is hot, therefore greenhouse gases in the earth’s atmosphere will increase the earth’s surface temperature,” then there is no need to introduce the topics of “heat-trapping,”, “radiative forcing,” or “back-radiation.” And, if as part of an oral examination for a degree from a university a candidate used that argument, he/she would fail the exam–and rightfully so. To me using the “Venus is hot argument” to prove that “greenhouse gases in the earth’s atmosphere will increase the earth surface temperature” is similar to concluding that “it takes 14 flapjacks to cover the roof of a dog house” because “footballs don’t have fenders.”

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            Robert Christopher

            I agree with your argument, but what I posted is how discussions progress, and to have a response to the hot (planetary) Venus problem would help.

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          dadgervais

          The answer is obvious if you consider all the data (not just one aspect): The surface pressure on Earth is 1 atm (about 14.7 psi); the surface pressure on Venus is approx 93 atm (~1366 psi). If you consider the temp on venus at an altitude where the pressure is 1 atm, its about what earth would be at that distance from the sum. The atmospheric composition is not material. it follows from the gass law PV = nrT.

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          yarpos

          We dont understand Earth’s climate yet the alleged causes of climate on another planet can be used as evidence of something? Pardon the pun but that seems cosmically illogical.

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        Peter Fitzroy

        Getting a bit desperate are we? Under your theory, we should expect to see a lot of larger organic molecules forming from this molecular collision theory, and we do not. Again you take an isolated lab experiment,and apply it without thought to the atmosphere. I’ll stick with the accepted science

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          Bobl

          No, not how it works, the collisions between those molecules are elastic IE energy preserving because the molecules are whole (valence levels are full) they are not very reactive. All that happens in the collisions is that the kinetic energy gets changed or the vibrational states gets converted to kinetic energy or vice versa. If you have a reactive molecule, say H2 it does get oxidised to H2O. But that can only happen where the energy gap for the reaction is below the rather small kinetic/vibratjonal energies involved in the collision.

          This is very basic chemistry. Generally you need energies in the UV range to completely break the bonds in the existing molecular structure and ionise the molecules ready for building new ones. This happens in forming ozone for example. IR is not energetic enough to do that.

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        Graeme#4

        Andy’s, how can a CO2 absorb any energy? I’m certainly no expert, but I thought that some energy would be lost in making the CO2 molecule vibrate. But energy absorbtion?

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        • #
          Bobl

          It’s not exactly like that, an electron in a bond is elevated to a different discrete energy level by the photon which results in a different vibrational pattern (mode) this only happens when the molecule is struck by a wavelength matching that energy gap ( difference between the energy of the present and future states) through a process called resonance. The molecules work like little antenna

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    • #
      Kinky Keith

      Hi Reed,

      At one point in your referenced discussion you say:

      “I couldn’t find a formula that specified the rate radiation is omitted from a differential volume containing of a mixture of gases”.

      I believe that the “omitted” was intended to be “emitted”?

      Also at another point you mention that “space” has a temperature of 0 degrees, and assume that this is °C or °K.
      I believe that this temperature is actually about 1.4°K?

      Regards
      Keith
      :-)

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      • #
        Reed Coray

        Thanks KK, you’re right on both accounts. I am aware that the temperature of space is not 0 Kelvin. I’ve heard it is near zero, but I didn’t know exactly what the temperature was. I used 0 Kelvin in my argument for a reason. Specifically, if the ERE temperature of the inert material you add to the system (in this case is a solid) is less than the background temperature, then the added material will decrease the ERE temperature of the sphere. The reason being that for a non-zero background temperature the sphere is receiving radiation from the background. If you replace the incoming background radiation from the solid angle subtended by the added material (as viewed from the sphere) with radiation from material, not only must you account for (add) the radiation from your added material, you must also account for (subtract) the background radiation. I didn’t want to complicate an already fairly technical description with that subtlety. My not including such a discussion is an error; but in my opinion doesn’t significantly affect my arguments. Do you agree?

        Note: I made some other type-like errors. I think maybe I’ll add a post with those corrections.

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        • #
          Kinky Keith

          Hi Reed,
          I wasn’t being critical or nitpicking, just letting you know that I’d read it.

          In fact not all of it.
          Well I skimmed through a lot of it and haven’t yet formed a picture of the physical construct under analysis.
          I notice that the Stephan-Boltzman equation is in use and probably it is useful in situations where differences are involved rather than absolute values.
          Climate Warming enthusiasts seem to use S_B to produce absolute values.
          The two layers you mention remind me of something new that I’ve become aware of: the atmospheric temperature away out seems to have irregularities that are counter to expectations.
          It’s complicated.
          :-) KK

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          • #
            Reed Coray

            KK. I didn’t take your comment as either a nitpick or a criticism. I appreciate it. If someone can demonstrate that I’m wrong, then so be it. I have some feeling for how complicated the earth/earth-atmosphere system is–in fact, I believe it’s so complicated as to be impossible to analyze in full. Some people use the word “chaotic” to describe the earth/earth-atmosphere system, and thereby imply it is mathematically impossible to predict the behavior of the earth/earth-atmosphere system very far into the future. That may be, but my ignorance of the mathematics of “chaotic systems” is total. As such, I can’t use chaos theory to prove it’s mathematically impossible to model the earth/earth-atmosphere system; but my education and background tell me that it will be difficult.

            My goal was to apply the three primary arguments (back-radiation, heat-trapping, radiative forcing) I believe the AGW community uses to “prove” atmospheric CO2 will cause warming of the earth’s surface to much simpler systems. If their arguments applied to a much simpler system are insufficient to prove “warming,” in my opinion they can’t be sufficient to prove earth-surface warming. My analysis didn’t preclude the possibility that atmospheric gases (greenhouse and otherwise) would lead to earth surface warming. However, I believe my analysis does show that back-radiation, heat-trapping, and radiative forcing are not, by themselves, sufficient to prove “surface warming” for a much simpler system. As such, I think the three phenomena are worthy of discussion; but fail as a proof of greenhouse gas induced global warming.

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              Kinky Keith

              Hi Reed,

              One of the big issues for me is that the warmers don’t seem to want to separate the two very different systems operating in day and night.

              They “average” things which illustrates the depth of their understanding of science.

              SHALLOW.

              As for back radiation???
              Heat trapping????, milliseconds.
              And last but not least that New PC term:
              FORCING?????
              I suspect that the units for this are related to the effort required to open the Federal Treasury doors, maybe: Dollars per kilojoule per square metre per annum????

              :-) KK

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                Bobl

                Nor do they treat the earth as a oblate spheroid under constant gravitational torsion. There are forces at work on this planet that are 200 billion times the annual solar influx yet they claim that none of this leaks into climate (degrades to heat) and none of the piddlingly small solar input leaks out of the climate ( becomes kinetic/chemical/enthalpy energy ) both assumptions that are quite obviously wrong.

                Climate science has the basic energy balance wrong which means they have NO IDEA whether energy is being retained or not. They have treated the solar in = IR out as a closed system when it’s not.

                This is so basic as to be unforgivable and it comes about because environmental scientists generally are not physics trained. It’s gotten to the point that the Physicists and Engineers that can do physics are not allowed to speak of these flaws. Paper after Paper gets published in Nature Climate Change that a basic energy balance proves actually can’t be powered by CO2 back radiation without violating the law of conservation of energy.

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                Kinky Keith

                That’s a great outline Bob.
                :-)

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    • #
      Don A

      I found this 2016 lecture very instructive. Others may disagree but it may put the CO2 scare to bed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGZqWMEpyUM&fbclid=IwAR1zADZTnHGaiULX3kpt76k5SdvIpPJPVUZmdcnVvNqb5NFAJ2H84HnmJ1s

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        Kinky Keith

        Looks good Don.

        The first thing he said was that there is almost no observational information available on the system.

        I would add that this is deliberate because any full analysis of the atmospheric system would show that the whole Climate Scare is in fact baseless because human origin CO2 is after all, just another gas.

        I hope to get back later to see more of it.

        KK

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        Graeme#4

        Interesting Don, but very slow! The main take home message I received was that while the amount of fossil fuel CO2 has increased over the last 20 years, the overall rate of CO2 increase hasn’t changed. Found the graphs quite interesting and captured them for later study.

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    • #
      ivan

      Another site where they have made an excellent collection of information about CO2 and its effect on the climate.

      http://www.use-due-diligence-on-climate.org/

      Well worth reading and bookmarking just for the information.

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    • #

      Oh no, not the greenhouse gas myth again. PF should do some homework. herewith a link to start with: https://principia-scientific.org/?s=greenhouse+gas+myth

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      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        Reed, you and I might want to swap email addresses, and maybe the moderators can facilitate this, that way we can communicate new postings.

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        • #
          Reed Coray

          Thanks AZ. I do occasionally E-mail Joanne, but I try to keep my E-mails to a minimum. I know how hard she works.

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      • #
        sophocles

        Don’t pat yourself on your back just yet pFitz. The first paper is about climate models. They’re crap. They haven’t made any sensible predictions projections in over 25 years. Not once. You’ve been told about this many times before, yet you still try relying on unreliable, non-functional models. That’s become a learning deficiency.

        Nasa Giss’s article is purely for Gullibles. CO2 as the Thermostat for the Atmosphere. Good grief. Haven’t you watched the continuous rise in CO2 over the last 18 – 19 years and the complete lack of movement of Global Warming? Idiot.
        Besides, we all know how much and how often Giss alters the temperature data. That makes that institute totally nreliable and pseudo scientific.

        You Struck Out, pFitz with both links! Try all these ones!

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          Kinky Keith

          Sophocles,

          I would disagree with your comment that “They’re crap”.

          Crap can actually be useful and in some parts of the world not contributing to global warming, it is used as fertiliser and, when dried, burned as fuel in cooking.

          KK

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            sophocles

            fHave you ever had to breathe the smoke of a crap-fuelled fire, one lit to warm and cook with? If you had the choice, you wouldn’t …

            Choice crap, like equine, bovine and ovine, does burn well, where `well’ is strictly in terms of ready oxidation, but that’s all! You can’t get an inferno, unless your grass hut or the prairie or plains grass catches fire — crap has a tendency to (putridly) smolder, And don’t breathe the smoke …

            Wood, both dry or fossilized (coal) is a far and away superior fuel. Crap is crap is crap no matter how you use it. Fertilizer is its optimum use. In conjunction with CO2, it’s pretty good.

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        • #
          Kinky Keith

          That’s a lot of reading there in the link.

          The one about the use of IR thermometers being mishandled probably illustrates the level of science demonstrated by the Pro Warming “scientists”.

          Reminds me of the abuse of the S-B equation by warm scientists.

          KK

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      • #
        Reed Coray

        Peter,

        Although it’s going to take me a few days to digest and respond to the two references you cite, I will get back to you with a response.

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        • #
          Reed Coray

          Note to the moderator. I inadvertently and incorrectly posted this response in the wrong place. Specifically, I posted it as a “new” comment (comment # 72). Is there any chance you can leave the comment here, and delete it as comment 72? Thank you.

          Peter, I’m glad you directed me towards two papers as a “start” of your proof that atmospheric greenhouse gases lead to atmosphere temperature increases. One paper in particular, Climate Change Prediction A challenging scientific problem, https://www.iop.org/publications/iop/archive/file_52051.pdf, by Dr. Thorpe, illustrates a serious problem with the “greenhouse effect” argument used by the AGW community (and to be fair, used by many skeptics as well). Specifically, Dr. Thorpe addressed the concept of the “greenhouse effect” and how it leads to an increased steady-state atmospheric temperature. In particular, Dr. Thorpe wrote: “For a steady state, climate properties such as temperature can be supposed to result from a long-term equilibrium between received energy from the Sun and outgoing energy emitted by the warm planet.” Immediately following that statement, Dr. Thorpe characterized the “greenhouse effect” by writing: “The existence of an atmosphere that is capable of absorbing and retransmitting certain wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum means that there must be a so called greenhouse effect whereby the atmosphere traps outgoing infrared radiation, thereby increasing the atmospheric temperature (see box insert and Andrews 2000).” (bold emphasis mine)

          The weakness of Dr. Thorpe’s position is that the two concepts (steady-state temperature, and greenhouse effect as characterized immediately above) cannot exist simultaneously. To see this, let’s stipulate that the earth’s atmosphere can absorb and retransmit certain wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum. If Dr. Thorpe’s statement has any relevance to the issue at hand (i.e., the greenhouse effect or equivalently that atmospheric greenhouse gases induce an increase in earth surface temperature), then Dr. Thorpe’s statement implies that (a) an atmospheric possessing the properties of absorption and retransmission of certain wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum will “trap outgoing infrared radiation,” and (b) the trapping of outgoing infrared radiation will produce an increase in the atmosphere’s temperature.

          Okay, let’s see where Dr. Thorpe’s characterization of the “greenhouse effect” leads. (1) Pick an instant in time and measure the earth atmosphere’s temperature. (2) At that time, outgoing radiation is being emitted by the earth’s surface. (3) Some of that outgoing radiation is in the IR band. (4) Some of the outgoing IR band radiation is “trapped” by the atmosphere. And finally, (5) The “trapped radiation” will increase the atmosphere’s temperature. Thus, starting at an arbitrary time, Steps (1) through (5) imply that at the end of any non-zero time interval, the earth’s atmosphere will be at a higher temperature than it was at the start of the time interval.

          With two exceptions (the time is not the same, and the atmosphere’s temperature is not the same), the conditions that exist at the end of the time interval are identical to the conditions that existed at the start of the time interval. In particular, (a) the earth’s atmosphere can still absorb and retransmit certain wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum, (b) the earth’s surface is still radiating outgoing radiation, (c) some of that outgoing radiation is still in the IR band, (d) some of the outgoing IR band radiation is still “trapped” by the atmosphere, and (e) if Dr. Thorpe’s characterization of the greenhouse effect is valid, the “trapped radiation” will still increase the atmosphere’s temperature.

          If Dr. Thorpe’s characterization of the greenhouse effect is valid, the five-step cycle above will repeat indefinitely; and cease repeating only when the earth’s atmosphere is incapable of absorbing and retransmitting certain wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum. Thus, Dr. Thorpe’s characterization of the greenhouse effect logically leads to an earth atmosphere whose temperature increases without bound—stopping only when the earth’s atmosphere stops absorbing and retransmitting certain wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum.

          Wait,” you say, “that’s not how the greenhouse effect works. At some point (temperature) the atmosphere’s temperature ceases ‘trapping IR radiation,’ and at that point the temperature won’t increase.” Aside from the obvious question: If a greenhouse gas molecule absorbs IR radiation because the molecule has a resonant vibrational frequency in sub-bands of the IR, then what is it about that process that makes it temperature dependent? another problem arises. Specifically, the temperature of the earth’s atmosphere decreases with increasing altitude. That means that even if greenhouse gases only “trap IR radiation below some temperature,” there will always be a region of the earth’s atmosphere below that temperature and that region of the atmosphere will “trap IR radiation.” By Dr. Thorpe’s characterization of the greenhouse effect, the temperature of that region of the earth’s atmosphere will increase. But if this is true, the earth’s atmosphere would not exhibit a decreasing temperature with altitude.

          Bottom line, I conclude Dr. Thorpe’s characterization of the greenhouse effect, which seems to be commonly held—at least by the AGW community, is logically and fatally flawed.

          When I get a chance to review the second of your two referenced papers, I’ll post my thoughts.

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    Aussie Pete

    The climate change zealots may have been given a black eye in the Australian election but rest assured they haven’t gone away. There is work to be done and it has to be different to what’s happening at the moment.
    The rebuttal’s on this blog and elsewhere are excellent but I’m suggesting they are ineffective in getting a message to large areas of the population.
    They present too much detail, too many graphs and too many numbers.
    A very big percentage of voters simply haven’t a clue and have formed an opinion that is based on the fact that “well it must be right because everyone says so” or “I believe the scientists.”
    Fortunately, many of these people are not necessarily spooked by the fear campaign, at least not yet. Scarily, again, many are also the parents of school kids and we all know what’s happening to them.
    They will be voters in 3 years’ time and many will carry their uninformed parents with them, sweeping them up in the tears and hysteria emanating from a one-sided education system.
    Masses of people think that
    1/ The polar bears are just about all gone.
    2/ Ditto for Arctic ice.
    3/ Carbon pollution refers to soot in the air.
    4/ The seas are rising at some alarming rate
    They have no idea about homogenisation, UHI’s or how miniscule all this so called “warming” actually is.
    I’m appealing to someone who has the wherewithal to get the ball rolling and start producing brief (30 seconds?) grabs that can be deployed on social media, newspapers and radio. We need brief, hard hitting factual good news.
    It will be costly but could be crowd funded and perhaps backed by a cashed up benefactor.
    By all means, keep pumping out the graphs, the numbers, facts and so on, but it is going to the wrong people (in the political sense) and eventually the scare juggernaut will win.

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      el gordo

      You may not be aware that Sky News goes free to air to the regions and Lachlan Murdoch (a political chip off the old block) has helped to bring about a victory for Morrison.

      If we could organise a Blue Team to audit JCU and BoM then I think it would be newsworthy, but we need the political support of the ginger group.

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        Bodge it an scarpa

        It would be even better if Skye News was a available free to air to everyone during the election campaign periods.

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          Ted O'Brien.

          Sky News hs been free to air here since last September. Channel 83 for us.

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            Annie

            Channel 84 in our area…watching now.

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              Bill in Oz

              What channel is it in Adelaide/South Australia ?
              I have tried all the available channels and . did not find it.

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                Graeme No.3

                Bill,

                you are too close to Adelaide to get WIN coverage. Try moving to Lameroo, Loxton or Mt. Gambier.

                Familiar problem, as someone said to me yesterday in Stirling “15 Km. from the city and we can’t get gas on line or sewage lines”. I am told the new sub-division in Mt. Barker will have gas on line.

                WIN claims 5.2 to 6 million australians are covered by their signal. They broadcast on channels starting with an 8 (as per 83 & 84 above).

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                yarpos

                Its surprising they arent streaming online these days

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            Greebo

            I believe that is only on the WIN network in regional areas.

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              James Radcliffe

              If you cannot find them, look on YouTube, I watch short excerpts there about Australian politics.

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              el gordo

              That is correct Greebo, Murdoch stitched up a deal with Bruce Gordon (WIN) so that Sky goes free to the regions. Its enough to win elections comfortably, city slickers have to pay.

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                Bobl

                You can get WIN on optus B satellite I think too if you get a sat TV setup. It’s almost worth it for sky.

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              Bodge it an scarpa

              I have a free Skye News mobile phone app that allows me to see short segments of commentary from Credlin,Bolt, Murray etc.

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      PeterPetrum

      Aussie Pete, there is an American site (whose name escapes me at the moment -old age catching up) that puts out excellent short (5 minute) YouTube videos that cover a range of global warming issues in layman’s language that are excellent. I have tried to find the most recent one but I have failed. I will keep trying.

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        Aussie Pete

        Thank you PP.Please come back if you remember. I will keep checking whilst ever this thread stays alive. I so strongly believe we need to educate a lot of people who are following the MSM mantra and believing it. If you find it I will begin circulating the link myself. I would even join facebook just to be able to reach a wider audience. Thanks again.

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          Kinky Keith

          I really think that the best way to convince the public is to expose the money trail.

          There is No Science to this rort and by exposing the Money trail you go to the heart what voters need to understand it.

          KK

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            Aussie Pete

            KK, That’s a good point, can you tell where the irrefutable money trail is laid bare. That would be good but the hysterical kids (tomorrow’s voters) won’t be interested in money trails.
            In my original post i referred to factual good news about the climate. We have to counter the terror that’s being put about in schools and elsewhere.

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              Kinky Keith

              Also good points Pete and additionally I suggest that dishonesty in government is the McCain issue.

              An honorable government would immediately take expert advice and be told something like Andy’s post.

              On receiving that advice they would be obliged to shut down all the CO2 reduction scams.

              The fact is that no side of politics wants to receive this advice from expert scientists.

              Is money at play here.

              I don’t know. Why don’t we ask China and South Korea? And let’s not forget our politicians : mr Hewson, MalEx444, AlGore etc.

              KK

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                OriginalSteve

                Facts will kill the Big Lie, but in small doses, as people now have brains trained to think in Greenist-compatible short sound bites only…..

                Smartphones are a propagandists best tool, they are always on and chunking out reams of trash.

                I was mucking about obe day and built a twin yagi antenna array to run my mobike data connection. All ran beautifully at 80Mb/s until about 3pm when social media and gaming junkies started teashing bandwidth which then dropped to about 15Mb/s.

                Sad thing about humans, is they are moronic, emotional hand grenades,if not properly educated….

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                Bobl

                I use dual biquads with a plane or parabolic reflector which gets more gain than a yavi and are circularly polarised. This will possibly beat the kiddies Steve.

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            Mark D.

            Alas KK, you are right to point out the money trail and an observant person is rightly suspicious of that trail. Unfortunately that alone is insufficient because it is too easy for a believer to claim “conspiracy theory”. We need to be unequivocal about the science (and lack thereof) as well as showing the money trail.

            The profiteers are too easily made into heroes by the indoctrinated. We need to apply steady pressure on all fronts.

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              Kinky Keith

              Yes, my main point is that the money trail :) as gone, so far, pretty much unexamined. It may not worry the kids,(Pete) but their parents would take note. Just note the effect that money had on the recent federal election.
              Maybe we need to ask Jo about this.
              At the conference discussion on Sunday the Swedish speaker gave a very interesting outline of where some of the Money is going.

              KK

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                OriginalSteve

                Yes but to be blunt, we have trained brains by education and sufficient skepticism.

                Your average punter doesnt think much at all, reads tabloid newspaper and thinks tv shows watching people watch tv are fun….you have to drop into “moron-ville” and learn how the natives work. This is why the emotve approach has been used by greenists, as no thinking required, just emotion….

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                sophocles

                Careful, OS. The UK Tory Party made that same mistake over Brexit and PM Teresa May has had to resign (four days ago). The Tories only received 8% of the vote during the EU elections held across the UK last weekend. Decimation.

                It might be better to copy Farage’s approach: he gave it all punchy sound-bites — they were easily remembered and their info was right on topic, damagingly so.

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                Bobl

                Sophocles/Steve. I agree but there is the problem of getting those sound bites into the hearing range of the teens that we need to influence among three cacophony from a climate obsessed media and teachers union.

                Malcolm Roberts ( and other sceptics in parliament – especially Angus Taylor are key here. In the light of the current state of kiddie protests, I am currently lobbying the politicians over the terrorising of our school children and the effect that terror is having on the education of our children. There is now a rather important reason to speak out against the propaganda because it’s directly impacting education. Kids that terrified of something can’t learn other topics properly, their amygdala dominated minds aren’t capable of handling it. I’ve also taken to some millennial stomping grounds to spread some rationality. The Greens also need tackling, to fight we need to use emotive arguments like the mass freezing of grannies in winter to make the AGW message unpopular, that is we need to show how evil (and pointless) climate action is and what we should be doing environmentally instead. Thats easy because so-called climate action has so many evil side effects.

                We also need a campaign to get the Pope out of this evil pagan religion. Ironically the Pope needs to be “Saved” from this false idol.

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                Kinky Keith

                Bob,

                If only we could sell your overview to our community and politicians.

                That would give them the one thing lacking:

                Direction.

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                Aussie Pete

                I’m actually replying to Bobl’s post 3.2.1.1.3 but for some reason there is no reply button on some posts.
                It seems that a lot of people are doing their own thing which is good but what I would like to see is an organised “social media” campaign consisting of short sharp grabs, either video or written words. Not so as to indulge in any kind of argument but just stating, in a couple of sentences some facts, that are just being ignored by all but those of us who read these kind of blogs.
                Original Steve is spot on. There are so many people out there who are either dumb, uninterested or both who are just accepting the daily mantra as fact. They wouldn’t click on a website like this in a fit, they wouldn’t even know such a thing existed. However, if by chance they did, their eyes would glaze over in a minute. Many have kids who are being turned into hysterical zealots and they are not equipped to handle that.
                We need a co-ordinated effort, perhaps along the lines of Advance Australia. SHORT – SHARP -SIMPLE messages in my opinion is what is required.
                Perhaps Jo might have some ideas of who could be approached about this.

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                sophocles

                Replying to both Aussie Pete @ #3.2.1.1.5
                and to Bobl @ #3.2.1.1.3

                Carrying The Message to the target audience — or preventing that — is exactly the reason for the complicity and lock-step of all, not just some, of the media, papers, magazines, radio, television, and the schools. Think about it: for the propaganda to be and to remain successful, its communication has to be wall to wall. The learned societies were co-opted to close that door.

                We can make our message in short pithy statements, clear sound bites. But if we can’t get it through, to our target audience, it’s not going to be useful. There are basically only two ways left: face to face speech and the Internet.

                The Internet is seen as the most important and the success of blogs such as Jo’s and Anthony Watts are not to be sneezed at. They’re working but so are the brains behind the rise of Technocracy: the search engines are being progressively corrupted, laws about “fake facts” and their promulgation are being prepared for enactment. So far, the ISPs are immune but how long will that last?
                It will soon become a crime and therefore punishable, to try to express anti-warmist “propaganda and other fake facts” to our friends and families but by then the global socialism will be upon us.

                We are not deniers no matter how much we are declared so, but we are becoming ever more the denied. Just as in Germany, 1935, but this is global.

                I agree with you, Aussie Pete, about how our content needs to be organized, but remember: we have to get the message out there, on target. Somehow. At the moment, I can’t see how to work around it with any reliability. Books work but it’s almost impossible to guarantee getting even them into the right hands. Henry George had a similar problem in the late nineteenth century but his method worked very well then, because books as a communication medium were far more successful than they are now. (HG was an economist and social scientist who had to be silenced, too, but interestingly, his books are still in print.) Nigel Calder’s books are steadily being purged from UK public libraries. The condition of most of the hardbacks I have acquired, are almost new so the reason for their withdrawal is moot.

                2: Aussie Pete:
                The blog software Jo uses has four levels of nested comment, the fifth level has to be done as I have here, manually at the start of this reply. At least the software keeps numbering the “replies to replies” — but we users have to track the replies manually. But this is where the blog software is also buggy: it gives up nesting and starts allocating level 0 numbers to all our replies again, to everyone’s consternation and confusion.

                So if this sets up another subcomment tree, we had better carry it a higher level further down the blog :-)

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        • #

          Also time to again mention the”BS Asymetry Principle”

          (also known as Brandolini’s law[14][15]) states that:

          The amount of energy needed to refute BS is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it. ”

          So that CAGW BS is worse than pumped hydro.

          Which is also why it is hard to displace.

          (Repeated from JCU thread #25.2.1.1 which contains the link – to save time of the mods as it has the full expansion of BS)

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            Also a report from “Windmills 101 Practical”

            We have a fenced dam with a 1964 Southern Cross IZ mill (10 foot wheel, 40 foot tower) which pumps to a turkey’s nest and trough. It has been disconnected from the pump due to lack of water for about two years and I was reconnecting it.

            Expectations for this include:_

            When disconnecting/reconnecting the pump rod the wind will blow like hell, which didn’t happen this time.

            After reconnection, when wanting to test the pump, the wind will be absent – did happen

            To get water in the turkey’a nest will require a fossil fuelled pump – did happen

            The service record is rather different though. The mill so far has had periodic oil changes and periodic replacement of pump buckets.

            So, like wind powered electricity, saved by fossil fuel – but much less frequently.

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            • #

              And relative to the wind generator tower in #9.

              Southern Cross used a 3-legged steel tower. The guarantee was along the lines of

              “If your concreted footings hold so will our tower”

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        graham dunton

        Climate Change and Greta Thunberg
        Duration: 00:04:14
        Watch the full sketch here:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=golAjKMDuVk

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      Peter C

      i
      Masses of people think that
      1/ The polar bears are just about all gone.
      2/ Ditto for Arctic ice.
      3/ Carbon pollution refers to soot in the air
      4. Sea levels are rising alarmingly

      I spoke to a guy yesterday who was convinced about 1,2 and 4.. He is an avid reader of Scientific American, hence he thinks he is on top of the “science of climate change”.

      Hard to change views like that, I could have provided some alternative facts, if I had the chance

      Here we have a big problem because SA puts out biased opinion as science.

      It could be that the Twitter users can help. John Roskam (IPA) wrote that his son was to become a social media influencer. Apparently someone called PeedePie has 96 million followers!

      This should have been a response to #3, but it got out of order

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      Robber

      Aussie Pete, I think our best chance to refute all the climate scare campaigns is to jump all over their latest theme of “climate emergency” and use ridicule.
      Definition of emergency: a serious, unexpected, and often dangerous situation requiring immediate action.
      What’s dangerous today?
      What immediate action?
      If climate changes really are serious, dangerous and immediate, then ask the “activists” to propose immediate actions such as:
      – stop all non-essential flying
      – ban the use of coal-based air conditioning
      – introduce odds and even days for car and truck use
      – reduce by 50% the use of fuel powered ships
      In other words, destroy the economy as we know it. That’s what you would do if it really was an emergency.

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        OriginalSteve

        Went past local uniting church who had a ” climate emergency” banner out the front.

        Yeeesh…..lost the plot big time….

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        • #

          “Yeeesh…..lost the plot big time…”. Getting worse by the day Steve. Check out the following link and weep: https://livingthechange.net/our-partners. I have abandoned mainstream churches years ago. Home church (biblical truth Christianity) seems to be the future. Christian churches are now failing on the BIG 101 of God: No other gods ……. Sad times indeed.

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            OriginalSteve

            Very true.

            Biblically sound churches are the go, and will stand out more and more as the #metoochurch movement that accelerates the loss of its biblical “saltiness” .

            The definition of appeasement is hoping you get eaten last by the hungry animal that is the world….

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      RickWill

      The only factor likely to change the warming narrative is for an extended period of cooling – global temperature at 1980 levels for a few years. That will kill the global warming story.

      Until that time, the hip pocket nerve is the point of resistance. Making the connection between attempts to control the weather and what it costs is the key point to make.

      Fundamentally, the present forms of intermittent wind and solar generators are unrenewable. Labelling them as renewable is misleading. That is the great con.

      In terms of thinking about the greenhouse theory, the story goes that the earth would be at 255K if it did not have an radiative atmosphere. That can be easily tested by looking at the moon, an airless, waterless rock the same distance from the sun as earth. The global average temperature of the moon is 197K. So cleat the greenhouse theory starts at the wrong point.

      The average temperature of the earth is controlled by large masses of interconnected water covering the planet and the unique phases of water that provide a myriad of negative feedback loops. The partial pressure of water rises rapidly above 28C. That means the water column above tropical oceans is relatively high and causes dense clouds that form highly reflective surfaces as the water vapour solidifies to ice crystals to limit heat input. Excess heat in the tropics is transported by wind and ocean currents from the tropical oceans to higher latitudes where it is released to space. However that process is limited by the formation of sea ice, wherein the sea ice acts as an insulator that limits the rate of heat loss.

      Tropical surface water is constrained to around 30C and polar surface water is constrained to about -2C. What goes on in between and on land is weather. Big shifts in regional climate are related to changes in ocean currents; most recently the Bering Land Bridge preventing warm Pacific waters getting to the Arctic Ocean:
      https://www.livescience.com/64786-beringia-map-during-ice-age.html

      Drakes Passage formed about 20M years ago and that made a huge difference to Antarctica as well as the land around the northern Atlantic.

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        theRealUniverse

        I dont believe and any GHG effect as it breaks thermodynamics..Water vapor controls the temperature VARIATION not the temperature! via latent heat of vaporization, condensation and heat transport at the ocean surface and clouds. Other is the albedo due to cloud cover the whole earth system is very complex. The Coriolis effect controls the circulation.

        The solar input and the surface pressure control the temperature. This has been proven by a paper published recently to apply to ALL planetary bodies in the solar system by 2 astrophysical researchers.

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    Bodge it an scarpa

    Can anyone inform me what to do so as I don’t have to sign in every day when I want to make a comment ? Sometimes I am required to sign in again on the same day an hour or two after previously commenting.

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      PeterPetrum

      Bodge – it may be that you have prevented cookies on whatever platform you are working on. You need to allow cookies or your computer/iPad will not remember you when you go to log on again.

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      yarpos

      Sign in to what? my experience of the forum is that its open to anyone. Maybe I misunderstand your meaning.

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        Bodge it an scarpa

        Yarpos, Sign in as in filling in the boxes re username and email address when making a comment

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          Greebo

          I think PP is correct. Check cookie setting.

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          Graeme#4

          Have to also sign in each day. Think it’s because I’m not registered on this site. Are most of the commenters here registered?

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          yarpos

          Thought that was normal operation here. My cookies are enabled but I have to fill in that info also (easy to do as it autofills). Cant think of any blogs I inhabit that autocomplete without having a genuine userid/password entry. Seems people are having a range of user experiences here.

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            Greebo

            Yep. Mine autofills. MacOS and Safari.

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              Bodge it an scarpa

              Well mine doesn’t auto fill , and filling in the email address box on a mobile phone on the outdated keyboard this site uses, that doesn’t have the @ and the dot on the same view make signing in tedious for someone with fat fingers and dodgy eyesore.

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      Adaminaby Angler

      If you are registered here, then your username would appear in red instead of black—hence, the vast majority of fellas here are not registered i.e. posting as guest (myself included).

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        yarpos

        Didnt even know there was a registration process, just arrived one day and started posting

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    PeterPetrum

    Come on, all you Jo Nova fans – she was great on Outsiders this morning. A gift of chocolates from all of you is called for. It won’t hurt a bit and I am sure Jo and family would really appreciate it. Her blog has been on fire over the election period – so show your appreciation.

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    pat

    one of theirABC’s most irritating staff members, David Rutledge:

    26 May: ABC: Humanity is destined to be irrational, and computers aren’t going to help us
    RN By David Rutledge for The Philosopher’s Zone
    But for anyone who wants to valorise the long and notionally successful march of Enlightenment reason, an uncomfortable truth presents itself in, quite simply, the state of the West today.

    If the West is ‘reasonable’, why are things so crazy?
    It’s hard not to feel that things are just a little bonkers right now.
    Democracy — the Enlightenment political project par excellence — has landed us with Brexit, an extreme-right surge across Europe and beyond, and an orange-hued reality TV star in the White House…

    ***Two centuries on from the Industrial Revolution we appear to be cooking ourselves alive…

    According to Justin Smith, author of the recent book Irrationality: A History of the Dark Side of Reason, rational schemes have long given rise into their polar opposite…
    “One of the pivotal moments in this shift came in 2016, during the presidential election campaign, when Trump retweeted a meme that had Pepe the Frog in it,” he notes.
    “This was the moment when Hillary Clinton came out and said that Pepe the Frog was a symbol of hatred.
    “All of these alt-right kids who were trying to get Pepe the Frog out there into the public consciousness, when Hillary said that, they were like, ‘Yes!! Hillary mentioned Pepe the Frog! We did it!’”
    It was at this point, that Smith realised Clinton had lost whatever edge she might once have possessed: she became the “stern, old schoolmistress”.
    “This was the moment when the effervescence of the extreme right was exactly, in spirit, the heir to 1960s counterculture,” Smith says…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-26/why-humanity-is-destined-to-be-irrational/11120734

    delusional – thinks Marxists can’t get a look-in at the Universities!

    14 Mar: ABC: Free speech or troll-bait? Why university campus provocateurs lean to the right
    RN By David Rutledge for The Philosopher’s Zone
    But is freedom of expression really being muzzled? It’s a question not just for the activists picketing campus venues — but also for philosophers…
    Robert Simpson, an Australian philosopher working at University College London, specialises in this sort of debate around free speech and liberalism.
    He’s sceptical of the idea that the university campus should be an anything-goes environment.
    “This idea that university is supposed to be a microcosm of democratic society at large is contestable,” he says…
    “Mere dissent, mere altercation doesn’t have a great deal of democratic value.
    “What we want from democracy is an exchange of ideas between different people where there’s some movement toward a shared understanding, so that we can jointly govern ourselves.”…

    “Economics departments are overwhelmingly aligned with neo-conservative or libertarian political movements,” he says.
    “So if you’re a Marxist economist, it’s really hard to get a job at a university nowadays.”

    But what if you’re a Marxist who just wants to stir up trouble by giving a provocative talk on campus? Where is the left-wing Milo Yiannopoulos, and why isn’t he being no-platformed up and down the country?
    “That’s a very good question,” Dr Simpson says.
    “It’s striking that provocative hard-line leftists don’t seem to get the audience in the first place.

    ***”This could be because the things they’re saying are just a more aggressive or militant version of what university faculty think, so it’s not that interesting for students to hear that person come and speak.***

    “I think there are a few people in philosophy circles who’d be delighted to become the left-wing Milo Yiannopoulos, but it’s not so easy for them to get out there and say the things that get up people’s noses on campus.”..
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-14/free-speech-or-troll-bait-university-campus-provocateurs-right/10895628

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    Serge Wright

    It was good to see you on Outsiders Jo, and the general discussion of the Labor autopsy made for pleasurable viewing.

    However, on the critical question of why Labor lost the climate change election, whilst we have all been examining the details, the elephant in the room has been missed in the discussion. This elephant is the false solution of RE in the form of solar and wind being driven by the left as the future power source. It’s becoming obvious to the general public that we can never lower CO2 using current RE technology without killing the economy and creating great suffering. All countries that embark on this RE journey end up at in an effluent filled creek without a paddle and in my opinion this is the real reason for the rejection of Labor’s climate change policy.

    In terms of our counter cc strategy, I also think that the best way to keep the climate zealots at bay is to move away from arguing climate change facts and fiercely target the destructive RE solution by highlighting the many studies that clearly demonstrate the utter uselessness of RE along with the failed real world resuls. This failing has been seen all across Europe, with the latest casualty being Sweden, where power shortages are now occuring due to the retirement and replacement of nuclear plants with wind farms. More importantly, what the western countries are actually doing is to convey a strong message to the rest of the world as to why you shouldn’t transition to RE. After all, why would countries such as India and Indonesia or other 3rd world countries want to drive up power prices to cause more povery on an already impoverished population, when their aim is to lift peole from poverty ?.

    In terms of solutions for powering the world, we should be hammering the nuclear option hard and focus our investment in this sector, instead of subsidies to useless RE. Australia can make a real difference by developing safe and cost effective nuclear power by developing and selling both the technology and uranium ore and also providing storage options for the waste later.

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      Aussie Pete

      Serge, I appreciate what your saying about renewables being useless etc but my point is that large masses of people/kids do have the attention span or interest to deal with technical details that this argument generates (pun intended).
      I’m pushing for simple good news stories about the subject. There are plenty to work with.

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      • #
        Aussie Pete

        do not

        20

      • #
        Serge Wright

        Pete – My point is that if you could garner general public agreement that REs are useless as a grid energy solution (which they are), then you remove the the largest threat posed by Green groups.

        40

        • #
          Kinky Keith

          And that then changes the political climate, which is ultimately the source of all our misery.

          20

        • #
          Bobl

          Yes, we have inroads, Angus Taylor is the target and he’s already a sceptic. He would put Paris to bed but Morrison won’t let him because he needs to hold the left of the party together. They need a plausible way out. One Nation holds the key here. Their plan to water the inland using tropical rainfall has a windfall carbon dioxide capture gain. I estimate that a properly scaled inland water scheme would sink enough CO2 to offset 100% of emissions and do it at a profit. This puts an end to the stupidity in Australia. Then it’s just a matter of selling this “carbon capture” idea to a public that is already sympathetic to farmers. It’s gonna be hard for the greens to argue against larger and more resilient native forests, wetlands and savanna along a revitalised inland strip.

          Of course the real motive here is to drought proof our land expand habitable and productive food zones and build our ecosystems resilience to drought, all of which has enormous social and financial benefits. True nation building stuff. in the process of a much needed water infrastructure, we can put an end to the climate change psychodrama.

          I think this is the way out, on a no regrets basis,

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  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    Friday 24 May, 2019, Melbourne CBD, strike for global warming ‘die-in’ …

    Dressed for cold weather, brainwashed Climate Cult kids think that because of the trace gas, CO2, they won’t be able to “breathe” or “eat” or “drink water”, and the planet is “dying” … (0.50) …

    https://twitter.com/camelion2018/status/1131850791189245952

    No point staying at school, that is where they learnt that tripe.

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      AndyG55

      Melbourne tomorrow 13ºC wet and windy, 8ºC overnight.

      Off you go, you poor traumatised little kiddies, find a few more layers of clothing. ;-)

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        Kinky Keith

        Newcastle has finally realized that it’s time for winter.

        Cold today.

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      • #
        yarpos

        I was in a to and last week fro with a guy panicking about Melb dams being at 50% and the BOM predicting a drier than usual winter. His main point was that we wee going to be grateful for the desal plant “mark my words!” style.

        I pointed out the BOMs track record in such things. Its been raining ever since that exchange.

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  • #
    • #

      Photo shows “respectfully prayerful attitude”

      40

    • #
      James Murphy

      It looks a bit like the South Australian logo which was supposed to look like a doorway

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      • #

        Another logo that went wrong was that old time NSW Department of Agriculture one that was known as “The Flying A-hole”

        30

        • #
          robert rosicka

          The Wangaratta council has just released the new logo for community consultation and feedback .
          It looks like the arch window from playschool so there maybe a copyright issue .

          20

          • #
            James Murphy

            Does this mean the there is only a 1 in 3 (or 1 in 4 for the newer version of Play School) chance that the Wangaratta council will use their imagination to see what’s through the arched window?

            30

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  • #
    James Murphy

    For those who may like to do it, or know someone who would appreciate it…

    You can have your name etched onto a microchip (along with all the other names), and sent to Mars on the 2020 rover.
    https://mars.nasa.gov/participate/send-your-name/mars2020/

    I think these things are always a nice idea, even if I’d prefer to visit Mars in person. It will also help the Martians track down the people responsible for sending laser-shooting, hole drilling robots to clutter up their planet.

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  • #

    Okay then, first, go and read what I wrote just five days back about the Senate vote in Queensland, at this link.

    At that time, just 53% of the vote had been counted, and Malcolm Roberts was 5,000 votes behind Larissa Waters of The Greens.

    I made some (hopeful) projections in that Comment, and darned if they didn’t go exactly as I wrote.

    Now they have 72% of the vote to count, and that’s before they even start to distribute preferences.

    The LNP has gone into 4th place, and now Malcolm Roberts is 13,000 in front of Waters, and he is easing further away with each group of new votes put up at the site, and WILL go back to The Senate.

    Waters is just ahead of the Labor guy, so they will be fighting it out for that last sixth place.

    When it’s over and they do that distribution of preferences, I’ll put the link up again, and just see how complex it really is, and how much things change with each distribution from the last place first and then on up till it’s exhausted.

    Link to Queensland Senate Count (click on Qld and then you can click on each party as it stands there)

    Tony.

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  • #
    TdeF

    First we had Gilette saying the problem in society was men’s attitudes.

    Now after a m*rder in a Melbourne park of a woman who was sleeping rough and had mental health and drug problem, all men are at fault
    ” the Premier calling for men’s attitudes to women to change.

    It’s like being blamed for the assassination of JF Kennedy or Mahatma Gandhi or Jack the Ripper. It seems in the new received opinion world, all men are to blame for everything which is rotten and all people who do rotten things.

    This is the new correct thinking. All men are at fault.

    When there is a storm, an earthquake, a bushfire, a tsunami, it is the fault of all people who use coal or gas or oil or eat hamburger.
    This blaming everyone else is a new device.

    Personally, I think it is all the fault of Premier Daniel Andrews. As a man, he qualifies for his own criticism, but that’s the great thing about accusing other people, you are exonerated.

    We are now told what we cannot say, how we have to think and how at least half the population of the world is the problem in all things. Is there no end to this? Can’t we leave it to the justice system?

    It’s the same thing when there are a statistically larger number of fatalities on the road on a weekend, ten instead of an average of five and the Police commissioner attacks all drivers. I blame Genghis Khan and Ramses II. Our wonderful spotless Premier would agree. Everybody’s fault but his own. Like Climate Change.

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      Hanrahan

      In the bell curve of intelligence men tend to be overrepresented in the outliers – at both ends. Low intelligence predisposes one to antisocial behaviour including violence while high intelligence is oft associated with nonviolent “white collar” crime. I have no specific link but I have spent hours listening to but not limited to Stefan Molyneux and his professional guests. We all know about testosterone when that is added.

      We are told to tell our male friends “It’s not on” but I don’t know any murderers or rapists, so I can’t give anyone this good advice.

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        TdeF

        It’s one thing to discuss relationships and male psyche, quite another for the Premier of the State to blame all men for the behavior of one.

        Who writes this agenda? Old white male privilege, male violence taught in every home, full term *bortion on demand, pull down statues of heroes, abuse explorers, ridicule the lessons of European History, attack Christianity and democracy and remove all borders? It is appalling. This is an assault on our society, which is one of the most peaceful, fair, balanced, accepting and open societies in human history. This is not reasoned debate. No wonder Climate Change attracts extremists. It is another dogma we are not allowed to question.

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          TdeF

          There is also a lot not said by Premier Andrews. He would have to know it was a man, only one man and that drugs and mental illness were not a major factor when we expect they are. These pompous pronouncements and generalizations smack of an insincere and opportunistic politician who wants to join the Me Too movement without having the presence of mind to realise that as a man, he just did.

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            OriginalSteve

            Yeah but to be blunt, a lot of the rabid womens libbers are hard core commies, who just use it as a lever to overturn society. Whenever i hear of such things, I try and work out how the communust ideal if overthrowing society could be served.

            When you read the aims of the US Communist Party, its clear it wants to trash the natural and normal roles of men and women, and if it means demonizing men, then they will do that.

            Dangerous Dan appears to a a far leftie, so his comments would align accordingly….

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            • #
              TdeF

              As a known bully who treats female ministers with obvious contempt, it is outrageous that Daniel Andrews is the first to condemn all men. He did this without any evidence as far as we know. A virtue signalling ‘me too’ moment from someone who would be the least appropriate person and pure political opportunism. This is a man who would not get out of the State Government car when (presumably his wife) hit a cyclist. This is the new Marxism, an attack on men, society, Christianity, Jews, the ‘rich’ and our freedom of speech. Global Warming is just one aspect of this new political tyranny by opportunistic politicians.

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          Annie

          He made me angry too, with his ridiculous ‘virtue’(?) signalling.
          I have met a few rather nasty men and a couple of really nasty ones; the vast majority though are good and decent, hard-working, wonderful people. Here’s a salute from me to all those great menfolk we are blessed with.

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            OriginalSteve

            Annie,we used to a neighbour who was the nastiest human Ive ever met. She was about 70 and just a black hole of bitterness and evil. Age is no barrier to evil it seems.

            God got rid of her, and another unpleasant character from the neighbourhood, after we moved in. All i could think of was story of the demons going into the swine who then went off the cliff…

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            • #
              Annie

              We know a female super-nasty…great at putting on an act of gentle sweetness and light, until you dare to disagree with her. There are definitely female nasties as well as male ones…it’s the usual sort of variation seen among human beings. Thank goodness so many of both are decent kind people but a great pity that so many believe without checking what their ABC and cohorts feed them, thinking that they are doing the right thing.

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              • #
                Annie

                We’ve just lost a very good friend in England. She was one of the very best you could hope to meet. I’m so thankful that she came into our life many years ago. She had oceans of commonsense and kindness. RIP Margaret.

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      James Murphy

      In her usual gutter-trawling way of politicising the death of Eurydice Dixon, Sarah Hanson-Young said “It’s not women’s fault that men behave like morons and like pigs” on a popular TV show. No consequences for that attitude or comment though…

      Another popular TV host took pleasure in telling everyone that men need to be taught not to rape and abuse women – again, with support rather than objective commentary by the MSM. Ironically, these “feminists” want to pass all the responsibility onto men, and the government.

      The school system has been over-run with teachers who ardently believe, or are complicit in conveying all kinds of class, gender, religious, and political warfare from the perspective not too far off that of Mao or Stalin. They shamelessly use children as political weapons (as Sarah Hanson-Young did with her own daughter). A friend of mine recently posted on social media expressing pride in encouraging their kindergarten age child to deface a picture of Nigel Farage.

      There may be a minority of people like this, but they have bullied society to a point where life-altering consequences result from expressing differing opinions. There is now mainstream justification of violence towards those expressing wrongthink – i.e. throwing eggs and milkshakes at people you don’t like). They seem to have won at the moment.

      I don’t know what the answer is, but this future of censorship and move towards political oppression looks bleak.

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      yarpos

      Its a major problem. The murder of men, which happens at twice the rate of women (no equality there) is less of a problem. Apparently.

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    Graeme No.3

    I see that Angus Taylor will now be the Minister “in charge” of both energy and emissions. The PM reversed his decision to split the two when he took over.
    I float this idea; behind the scenes preparation for a blackout this coming summer. Big announcement then about “safeguarding supply” with new lower emission coal fired plants and a cut in subsidies for renewables. The States will be allowed to keep any level of subsidies they decide but have to pay them out of their revenue. State funeral for Bob Brown when he dies in an apoplectic fit?

    So unlikely, and too decisive for our dear (& expensive), sweet government?

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    • #
      robert rosicka

      Listening to Kenny on Sky news and he mentioned that there is no minister for climate change and this will make the lefties and extreme lefties have a bit of a sook .

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      Graeme No.3

      In The Australian just now:

      “A $10 million feasibility study for a high-efficiency, low-emissions plant at Collinsville has been promised by the Coalition as part of a suite of projects aimed at improving the stability and reliability of the electricity grid”. Graham Lloyd.

      It looks like the adults are back.

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    David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

    We drove past the Bodangora windfarm on the Goolma Road twice today. This morning, on our way to Dubbo we could only see one unit moving. Windless morning there about 10:15 am. Still not much movement as we drove past on the way home about 3pm.
    I was able to time one revolution of one turbine close to the road. It took 9 seconds (by my count, so plus or minus about a second).
    It has 33 turbines (GE 3.4-130) with nameplate capacity of 113 MW.
    I have two questions:
    1. For how long can these units remain stationery before they must be rotated to maintain structural integrity of the drive shaft? and
    2. Would such a slow speed of revolution produce any useable power?
    Cheers
    Dave B

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    • #
      Hanrahan

      They definitely draw power when idle. It’s bearings that can’t remain static for long periods: hard surfacing cracks. The wind farm can’t go dead so must be kept alive so it can power up again and I think they need to have oil pumping. Someone may know more about that.

      I’m speaking outside my trade but 10 Sqn with Neptunes had to periodically move any aircraft on standby, fully fuelled and loaded with ordinance to prevent damage to wheel bearings.

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    • #
      Robber

      At Anero.id you can click on wind energy, and then isolate Bodangora. It shows zero generation 9-12am yesterday, and averaging only 10% capacity factor for the day.
      And at NEMWEB http://nem.mwheeler.org/stations#BODWF1 you can see that from May 22-25 the turbines were mostly idle.
      And if you pass your cursor over the graph it shows negative numbers every few hours during that time. In other words, Bodangora was drawing power (up to about 0.4 MW)from the grid to protect those bearings and shafts every 3-4 hours.

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    • #
      RickWill

      9 seconds for a revolution of a 133m diameter turbine is quite fast. It means tip speed is 46m/s. At that speed the tip speed ratio is probably more than 6 but certainly less than 10 as that is typically the maximum. So lets say it is 8 to give a windspeed of 6m/s.

      From the power curve of a unit with same rating but slightly larger diameter, 6m/s gives about 600kW:
      https://www.en.wind-turbine-models.com/turbines/1339-general-electric-ge-3.4-137

      The Anero data for Bodangora looks odd. It shows a rapid increase just before 9am and then a sudden fall to nothing till Noon. That drop off is not consistent with the wind data for Dubbo but it is changeable and gusts no more than 8kts (say 4/s). They typically need 3m/s to generate.

      From 1330 to 1600hrs the wind gusts at Dubbo ranged between 13 and 15kts. So that is consistent with estimated 6m/s based on turbine rotation speed. At 3pm Anero shows Bodangora at 4.5% giving individual turbine output of 150W. The one you observed may have been spinning faster than the others or the rated output curve does no count for the required conversion losses.

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      David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

      Thanks Robber and Rick Will,
      Much appreciated for the answers to both my questions.
      Rick, that sudden rise and drop off around 9 was probably the result of a rain front which passed through about that time. We experienced it just after we left Mudgee about 9:15, heading for Gulgong, and left it behind when we turned off that road and towards Wellington. But the road was wet through to Wellington.
      The one I did the count on is close to the road and on a slightly higher knoll, giving it a bit better exposure.
      Some of the earlier comments about the need for the turbines to be rotated on still days made me think it had to be a continuous operation, rather than staggered. That 3-4 hour interval explains why I’ve seen just one moving in an otherwise still group.
      Cheers
      Dave B

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    Kinky Keith

    The Friedman Conference was on again in Sydney over the weekend.

    Jo gave a spirited presentation that used ridicule to explain the position of renewables in the modern energy basket as being expensive and unworkable.

    Linking Renewables and ancient Paganism did the trick in destroying any credibility that wind and solar may have had with the audience, and was followed by Nick Minchin pushing the major new contender for the future: Nuclear.

    KK

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      Serp

      Nick Minchin is flogging a dead horse promoting nuclear for Australia. We can’t afford it; better stick with coal and face down the green nutters.

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  • #
    beowulf

    Sinodinos is about to be dropped into the US ambassadorship. While this will do nothing for the US-Australia relationship, it is an astute strategic move by Morrison to clear the decks of jetsam.

    • It removes the last of the powerful Turnbullites and gets him out of cabinet and out of the country to stop him inflicting more damage
    • It stops Sinodinos from pushing his green agenda as he has already begun to do since the election in his attempt to pull the Libs back to the left
    • It removes one of the nastiest powerbrokers from the NSW Libs which may improve things in that branch of the party as well

    During the ICAC corruption hearing into a Sydney Water deal, Sinodinos was the witness who was unable to remember a $74,000 donation by the company he was Deputy Chairman of to the Liberal Party he was treasurer of. He was unfortunately unable to recall a great many things during his 6 hours in the box. His embarrassing testimony was punctuated by a torrent of “I don’t recall” and “I don’t remember” answers.

    He also forgot to disclose that he allegedly stood to personally gain between $10 million and $20 million from the deal. The notorious Obeid clan stood to make about $100 million allegedly. Sinodinos was also on a $200,000 salary for what was calculated by the ICAC to be between 25½ and 45 hours of work per year. This was in a company that had 1 contract and 10 employees. All of this is on public record.

    Good riddance.

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      Aussie Pete

      The icing on the cake will be that Jim Molan will be returned to the Senate to fill the casual vacancy left by Sinodinos. It just keeps getting better for Morrison.

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      Serp

      I thought the lamest part of his testimony was insisting that his travel time needed to be considered in computing his hourly rate –just the slightest acknowledgment that he could see the iniquity of his behaviour. I wonder how often he visits Obeid.

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  • #
    George4

    Saw this on ABC TV news tonight, link is the written version.

    ‘Revenues not restoration’: Scientists warn NSW tree-planting scheme does more harm than good

    2 billion funding available for planting trees in national parks from carbon credits through the Emissions Reduction Fund.

    Tree planting work carried out by private companies like “CO2 Australia”

    What a waste of money.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      The so-called scientists were saying the tree density was way to high.

      Have they ever seen a natural regrowth?

      Much higher densities of small sapling than have been planted,

      Those saplings will fight for survival before falling back to the natural density of the region.

      They will draw down CO2 as they are growing rapidly, then release a fair proportion as they naturally thin themselves out.

      Yes, a waste of money for sure, but at least most of it probably stayed in Australia rather than being sent overseas as useless carbon credits for non-existent and triple+ booked carbon scams.

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        George4

        I reckon most areas would regrow forest naturally after a while without livestock even without fencing.
        But no one makes money out of that.
        They say there was overgrazing.
        But it was only converted to a national park in 2010.

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        • #
          Hanrahan

          Overgrazing has been a massive problem.

          In a previous life I drove to the Towers regularly and there was one property so eroded it looked like a moonscape. After rain, as soon as some grass shooted there was cattle on it. A month later there was good grass beside the road and nothing his side of the fence. Fact! and for years.

          I wouldn’t mention it, call it an exception, except that all our coastal rivers have silted up with the heavier bits of the propertys’ erosion. The lighter bits may end up on the GBR. They certainly silt up fringing reefs.

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        beowulf

        The ecologist is an idiot IMHO. The climax plant density of an open forest is nothing like the initial density. Like Andy says, the initial planting density will sort itself out over time. What are wavy contour lines of trees now will soon take on the appearance of natural random bushland as some trees flourish and others fade away. 800 seedlings per hectare is nothing — that’s 12.5 m2 per tree/shrub, minus natural mortality and animal browsing . . . and it only covered 2% of the park.

        It is customary to plant relatively densely to achieve what is termed “site dominance”. From the photo it is certainly not being over-planted. The so-called “terraces” are nothing of the sort and merely well-spaced single rip-lines done on the contour. They act as mini swales to aid in water interception and absorption. It is standard practice for tree planting to deep-rip a furrow to loosen compacted soil and allow free root growth even on flat terrain. There appears to be active erosion near the dam?? if it is a dam, which the contour ploughing will help to heal. From the photo, it also appears the ploughing might be even more advanced, using the Keyline technique where ploughing is done off the contour to deliberately direct water from the gullies out onto the spur ridges. This will quickly kill any erosion.

        I used to work almost next to this national park 40 years ago. It is close to the old Airly oil-shale mine. The area has soils derived from sandstone — poor, quartzy, gravelly garbage. The main grass that grew was Spear Grass which is a sign of over-grazing and low fertility. If you walked 50 yards you had bleeding shins and socks full of sharp barbs that dug straight through your jeans into your flesh. The area used to be full of wild goats, which if it is still the case would mean that a lot of the young trees are going to be eaten off in any case. There are plenty of good reasons for a high planting density.

        I don’t doubt that National Parks is probably rorting the scheme (like every other Green scheme gets rorted), but how you can claim it is doing harm and threatening wildlife strains credulity. Looks like an improvement to me. Another ABC beat-up.

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      Bill in Oz

      Come on George !
      It’s an ABC program/article/news report
      Bugger all quality control
      And not much capacity to research all the facts.

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      Sceptical Sam

      George.

      I’m sceptical. Cripes! It was on the ABC. It’s got to be anti-LNP.

      What were these so-called “scientists” claiming to be concerned about?

      As I heard it, they were saying the trees were “too close together” and they would destroy bird habitat. Trees destroy bird habitat now do they. What next? Water destroys fish habitat? Bull dung destroys dung beetle habitat?

      Seriously? Do they expect people to believe such nonsense? It smelt to me like subterfuge for something else.

      What was their real motivation?

      I’d say it had more to do with the application of the “direct action” program, which they really don’t like because it was a Tony Abbott initiative. They’d probably prefer the money to be spent on more subsidies for their crony champagne socialist comrades who are invested in wind turbines or solar farms.

      Trust the ABC? Not me.

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        SS

        Sounds like more of that “expert scientific advice” that was backing the last (“temporary”) stand of the finch in the Adani mine saga.

        Which is the same source as the “expert scientific advice” backing the current Qld Veg management act BTW

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      • #
        George4

        What mainly concerns me is they were earning millions from CO2 schemes to plant the trees and using private companies like CO2 Australia.
        I doubt very much they would have done it without that financial incentive.
        I still say areas with reasonable rainfall and totally destocked will naturally regrow without expensive intervention.

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    • #
      Lewis P Buckingham

      When Bob Hawke had his say he planned to plant ‘a billion trees’
      Foreward thinking, yes, just like he wanted nuclear power.
      A billion trees.
      His argument was that as you reforest areas the seeds and natural propogation will grow the rest.
      At least the money will stay here, while we reap the benefit of faster growth of our forests due to increased CO2.

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    toorightmate

    Our beloved left wing media is in a bit of a tizz that there MAY be 6 genuine starters for the British PM role.
    Those same left wingers (or is it whingers?) do not seem phased by the US Democrats currently having 20 runners for the 2020 presidential nominee.

    BTW Australia rather handsomely voted for the ALP and Shorten to be PM.
    HOWEVER, we good folk here in Queensland saved the country.

    You’re welcome.

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    Serge Wright

    An amusing topic this week was the noted increase in enquiries of AU citizens seeking information on NZ residency. It seems that following the re-election of the LNP, many of the green zealots want to move and join Jacinta’s green love-in. This actually sounds like a perfect solution for the 10% of voters who support the Greens, seeking strong climate change action. After one NZ winter they will all suggest burning some coal to make NZ habitable ;)
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/surge-in-australians-researching-nz-move-after-election-results

    And on the topic of NZ and climate change extremists choosing a vegan lifestyle, comes this story on increased hospitalisation. Yes folks, if you don’t eat meat you will likely get very sick from iron deficiency. Low iron levels also affect cognitive ability, which certainly makes sense when you think of the policies of the ALP & Greens and articles written by the ABC and the Guardian. It might also explain Bill Shorten’s running style, which reminds me of a Monte Python skit from the ministry of silly walks ;)
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/108767316/more-spent-on-low-iron-hospitalisations-as-meat-intake-declines

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      Hanrahan

      Reminds me of the ten pound poms. One wanted to go home and needed another five quid to buy his ticket. His mate offered a tener and told him to take one of his mates with him.

      GoFundMe is the modern way. I’d chip in to help charter an aircraft.

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      Bill in Oz

      This bears thinking about.
      Ex-patriot Greenists in NZ are far less likeey to vote in future Australian elections.

      And as Australian citizens in Z, they do not have the right to vote there

      A win win for us here in Australia !

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    • #

      Likely more hot air going on the similar threat by US “notables” to move to Canada if Trump was elected

      30

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      OriginalSteve

      Maybe the vegans can go into a mud hut low carbon hospital with no power, no drugs and experience the 3rd world at home? That should cure them quickly….its what a lot of the 3rd world people have to put up with. I got to tour a hospital in India once….eye opening…

      FYI – I dont mind if people go the who vegan route , just dont be primma donnas about it…

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      Analitik

      I expect this to be all wind and no action, much like 2016 where all the celebrities who hated Trump vowed to emigrate to Canada if Trump were to win the election. How many went ahead and moved?

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    pat

    pathetic.

    TWEET: Malcolm Turnbull:
    Congratulations to @A_Sinodinos set to be our new ambassador in Washington. The role is more important than ever & Arthur will do an outstanding job – building on the great work of @JoeHockey our current Ambassador.
    25 May 2019
    https://twitter.com/TurnbullMalcolm/status/1132540331293937664

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      Ross

      This was a great move by Scott Morrison –getting Sinodinos out of the country so he does not continue white anting the Government with his very pro AGW views.

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        Analitik

        Much like promoting Frydenberg out of Energy and Environment to Treasurer where he cannot directly add to the destruction of our remaining thermal generating assets.

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    pat

    BBC was pushing this story during the week:

    6 May: ArtNet: There’s a Flood of Climate Change-Related Art at the Venice Biennale. Can It Make a Difference — Or Is It Adding to the Problem?
    Local advocates say they wish more exhibitors would ask them how to minimize their environmental impact instead of simply asking them to participate in panel discussions.
    by Hettie Judah
    PHOTO: Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg makes a speech in Rome in April 2019
    Protesters from the activist group Extinction Rebellion were an unmissable sight in London last month…

    This week, Venice welcomes a massed international assembly of individuals and entities one might assume shares Extinction Rebellion’s concerns (the art world, after all, is seldom shy of broadcasting its modish liberal credentials). So what of the spirit of Extinction Rebellion and other global climate change protest movements might we see at the 58th Venice Biennale, located in a city that is among the most vulnerable to rising tides?
    The answer is quite a lot. But local climate advocates say the art world should be conscious about doing more good than harm.

    Among the events addressing the issue in Venice is an exhibition organized by cultural journal the Brooklyn Rail titled “Artists Need to Create on the Same Scale that Society Has the Capacity to Destroy.” It is the second in a series of shows launched in 2017 as a response to President Trump’s “divisive agenda concerning our current social and political condition in regard to immigration, inequality, and the most urgent topic, climate change,” explains co-curator Phong Bui, as well as the administration’s withdrawn(sic) from the 2015 Paris Agreement…

    Bui and his co-curator Francesca Pietropaolo see the show as a catalyst for discussion, which in turn will generate fodder for a new publication. Pietropaolo cites the teenage activist Greta Thunberg and School Strike 4 Climate Change as potent sources of inspiration: “The awareness of such urgency is palpable in today’s young generations,” she says…
    https://news.artnet.com/art-world/climate-change-venice-biennale-1532290

    22 May: ABC: Australian artworks on climate change to feature in international exhibition
    ABC Mid North Coast By Emma Siossian
    Global warming is a big concept that can be hard to grasp, and it is easy to glaze over when confronted with a raft of scientific statistics about temperatures and predicted sea level rises.
    Art, however, is a medium that is often more likely to engage people on an emotional level and international art exhibitions are increasingly focussing on environmental themes and climate change…

    “The environment is a hot topic this year at the Biennale in Venice, with the overarching theme being ‘May you live in interesting times’,” (Henderson) said.
    “Here in Australia some upcoming art prizes including the Banyule Award for Works on Paper and the R.M. McGivern Prize for Painting, both in Victoria, are also strongly focused on the environment and climate change.”…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-22/how-art-can-highlight-climate-change/11115518

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    pat

    25 May: Breitbart: Police Want to Charge 1,100 Climate Activists for ‘Extinction Rebellion’ Disruption
    by Joe Markham
    During the protests, activists laid down in the middle of busy public roads, glued themselves to the walls of financial institutions such as the London Stock Exchange, and even attempted to disrupt flights from Heathrow airport…
    The demonstrations lasted for 10 days in total and required a police presence of 10,000. It is estimated this cost the police force £7.5 million, which is more than half the money assigned by London mayor Sadiq Khan to assist with extra policing in the capital…
    In an official briefing on Friday, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Laurence Taylor announced that the police would be looking to charge all those arrested in the protests in order to deter others from similar action in the future…READ ON
    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/05/25/scotland-yard-to-charge-1100-people-over-extinction-rebellion-protests/

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    Hanrahan

    Now for something completely unthreaded.

    An earlier post about an aircraft I once worked on started me thinking about the services in general. I once drank with an ex-Navy guy [another victim of the big C] who said us RAAFies were just civies in uniform. Before I objected I though, and nodded.

    The RAAF: The “other ranks” fix up Sir’s bird, strap him in and send him off to war. If he returns, rinse and repeat.

    The Army: Sir sits in HQ and sends the grunts out to kill or be killed.

    The Navy: They are all in the same boat together and this really concentrates the mind.

    Obviously there is a different mindset needed for each with the RAAF being the least disciplined. [We still took our job seriously, it just didn't matter if we couldn't drill]

    Wadda ya reckon Tony?

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    pat

    26 May: AFR: Confident ScoMo tackles troublesome portfolios
    by Phillip Coorey
    When Scott Morrison unveiled his first ministry last year following the leadership coup, he made a point of separating energy from climate change…
    It was a gesture by Morrison towards the conservatives who had used the NEG as a catalyst to oust Malcolm Turnbull.
    Unveiling his post-election ministry on Sunday, Morrison remarried the two…

    It was a confirmation of the subtle change in energy policy direction Morrison effected before the election when he wanted to head off a backlash over climate change.
    He emphasised renewable energy over coal when announcing the government’s priorities for new generation sources…READ ON
    https://www.afr.com/news/politics/national/confident-scomo-tackles-troublesome-portfolios-20190526-p51r9w

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    pat

    behind paywall:

    26 May: UK Times: British Gas: get a smart meter or we’ll charge you an extra £300
    by Kenza Bryan
    Britain’s largest energy firm is refusing to offer its cheapest deal to customers unless they agree to have a smart meter installed.
    Any British Gas customer who sticks with a traditional meter will have to pay almost £300 a year more on average for a dual-fuel tariff.

    British Gas’s lowest-cost tariff, Energy Plus Protection Green, fixes rates until May 2020 and costs £938 a year for average consumption. A customer who takes the deal but declines to have a smart meter installed within three months of signing up will be switched to a deal costing £1,228 a year on average.
    Energy suppliers are obliged to replace Britain’s 50m analogue meters by the end of 2020 or face huge fines. Only about 15m have been replaced…
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/money/british-gas-get-a-smart-meter-or-well-charge-you-an-extra-300-93kzplzlj

    21 May: WorldEconomicForum: Bill Gates: This is what we need to do to tackle climate change
    Wind and solar power generation is expanding around the globe at record rates, allowing more people to get their electricity from clean, renewable sources than ever before. This is great news.
    And here’s better news: We can do even more…
    To make these innovations a reality, we need governments — especially the U.S. — to step up and commit new funding for nuclear energy research and demonstrate that there is a future for nuclear energy…READ ON
    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/05/a-critical-step-to-reduce-climate-change/

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    pat

    25 May: Xinhua: “New negative record” for German onshore wind in latest invitation to tender: study
    Only 42 percent of the tendered bid volume could be awarded to onshore wind projects in Germany in the latest round of tenders, which was a “new negative record”, according to a study published by the specialist agency for onshore wind energy, FA Wind, on Friday.
    Of the 650 megawatts (MW) tendered, only 270 MW were awarded for the construction of new wind turbines in Germany, the FA Wind study noted.

    “The expansion of wind energy in Germany has been in sharp decline for more than a year. If the trend is not reversed soon, national climate protection targets will be jeopardized,” Juergen Quentin, adviser at the onshore wind agency, told Xinhua on Friday…READ ON
    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-05/25/c_138087232.htm

    some birds don’t count:

    25 May: HannibalCourierPost: Northwest Missouri sees divide over wind power projects
    By Abigail Shaw, Antranik Tavitian and Emily Catherine Adams, Columbia Missourian for Associated Press
    The public divide over wind farms starts with the term itself…
    The first thing Kim Tindel noticed was the birds disappearing.
    When the turbines for the Osborn Wind Project went up on the properties surrounding the DeKalb County home where she and her husband, Scott, live, there was plenty of wildlife in the area…
    Almost two years after the turbines went up, Tindel said, the birds have seemingly vanished.
    “I used to go through a huge bag of bird feed every week,” Tindel said. “Now if I say I go through one a month I’m a liar.”
    Tindel, who said she’s also noticed other animals have become scarce, said she really took notice of the turbines’ impact when she saw a flock of Canada geese break their V-formation while flying over a turbine.
    “When I saw it I just burst into tears,” Tindel said. “It was so unfair to those birds.”

    Tindel’s neighbor and longtime friend Johni Walker said he watched a bird fly into a turbine and die. The Missouri Department of Conservation in 2016 found a dead bald eagle at the Lost Creek Wind Farm in DeKalb County in 2015, according to the St. Joseph News-Press.
    Walker said it doesn’t make sense.
    “If you or me kill a bald eagle, that’s illegal,” Walker said. “For them, it’s just a part of doing business.”…

    Tindel and Walker take offense when people refer to the wind-energy projects as farms.
    “There’s nothing agricultural about them,” Walker said. “It’s an insult to farmers to call them farms.”
    Tindel calls it “a great marketing ploy” that distracts “from how terrible they are.”…

    Tindel said people have threatened her since she began speaking out against the turbines.
    “Our neighbors started turning on us,” Tindel said. “They said we didn’t care about the environment or just hated renewable energy. I don’t hate renewable energy; I just hate the way they’ve gone about it.”
    Tindel said she and her husband have been asked why they don’t just get an apartment in the city.
    “We haven’t done anything wrong,” she said. “This is our home, and I just want to be able to get some sleep in my own bed.”…

    Tindel said she’s called the Osborn Wind Farm’s office “over a hundred times” complaining about the noise the turbines make and the lights on top of them.
    “They insist everything’s running at ‘industry standard,’” Tindel said. “But our community’s better than industry standard.”…

    “All across our horizon flashes bright red light,” Carroll said. “Hundreds of them, every four seconds, for as far as you can see.”…
    Residents also complain about “shadow flickering,” which happens when a turbine’s spinning blades intermittently block the sun over and over again, causing a flicker effect that Tindel has documented in videos recorded near homes, on roads and in fields.
    While studies have shown that the speed of wind turbine shadow flicker is often too slow to cause seizures, some people have reported headaches, nausea and dizziness.
    “They told us it was rare and wouldn’t happen often,” Tindel said, adding that it’s most common in winter. “Their definition of often must be off.”…

    Tindel said she has headaches and trouble sleeping. The turbines make a mechanical whooshing sound, similar to a washing machine, which grows louder when the wind picks up.
    “They say they aren’t that loud, but they’re loud enough to keep me up at night,” she said. It’s also enough to ruin the Tindels’ plans for a sun porch they’ve been adding to their home.
    “You can never have a quiet summer evening anymore,” Carroll said…

    The destruction of roads and land that came with the development of wind farms wasn’t an easy pill to swallow for residents of Atchison or DeKalb counties. Even Klute, who loves the wind farms, described the construction as “hell.”
    The companies also tend to be “tight-lipped” about their construction plans, Klute said…
    https://www.hannibal.net/news/20190524/northwest-missouri-sees-divide-over-wind-power-projects

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    pat

    “renewables” in the headline is superfluous:

    26 May: Japan Times: Reuters: Coal reigns in Vietnam’s booming energy sector but interest growing in renewables
    Vietnam has become a hot spot for energy investors eyeing a spend of up to $150 billion over the coming decade to meet surging power demand, with coal set to dominate despite signs of a government effort to go green.
    With a population nudging 100 million and annual GDP growth around 7 percent, Vietnam has forecast power generation will need to rise from about 47,000 megawatts (MW) currently to 60,000 MW by 2020 and 129,500 MW by 2030.

    To meet these targets the country will need to add more than neighbor Thailand’s total installed capacity by 2025 and its electricity sector will likely be bigger than Britain’s by the mid-2020s.
    “Vietnam is a big growth story for the coal industry. Coal demand will be extremely strong,” said Pat Markey, Managing Director of Sierra Vista Resources, a Singapore-based commodity advisory…
    Vietnam’s coal use in the five years to 2017 grew 75 percent, faster than any other country in the world, according to a research paper by the Harvard Kennedy School’s Ash Center on Vietnam.
    The country’s current Power Development Plan (PDP 7) puts coal front and center to meet new demand.
    While generation is set to double, PDP 7 forecast coal-fired generation would grow rapidly to 2030, with its share of the energy market rising from 33 percent to 56 percent…

    Facing a rapid rise in pollution, the Industry and Trade Ministry has started to offer incentives for renewables, which so far only play a marginal role in Vietnam’s energy sector…

    Coal still king
    But whatever the long-term plans under PDP 8, Vietnam still needs quick fixes to meet demand.
    “Vietnam is a country in the midst of massive economic growth, so they will need to expand their power capacity as fast as possible at manageable costs,” said Sierra Vista’s Markey, who sees projects already in the pipeline adding an extra 2.7 gigawatts (GW) of coal-fired capacity by 2020 to the 15 GW of coal-fired power already in place…

    In the first four months of this year, Vietnam’s coal imports more than doubled from a year earlier to 13.34 million tons, according to Vietnam customs data.
    Markey said imports are forecast to peak at 80 million to 110 million tons between 2030 and 2040, against current demand of 63 million tons.
    Such a surge would make Vietnam one of the last boom markets for what many otherwise see as a sunset industry
    http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0005766330

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      RickWill

      The population density and terrain highlights a serious flaw with ambient intermittent generation – energy density. On the other hand the terrain offers the advantage that Vietnam has good hydroelectric resources and wind and solar can conserve perched water. That means that the country is well placed to make very good use of any wind and solar installed. It will be interesting to see if wind and solar can be economic compared with coal in the favourable circumstances. It is a good test case!

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    Richard Ilfeld

    Now that the news furor over the 737 MAX has subsided, Boeing, the FAA and other international authorities have been able to get to work to dissect the two incidents, place them in the context of all other recent trim runaway incidents, and try to improve avaition safety for all of us. In the US, in Australia, and in most of the worls, commercial aviation is very safe, and it will probably get a bet better.
    Some takeaways so far:
    1. Much of our aviation practice was geared to the evolution of airframes and engines, with well understood parameters and long experience in evaluation and testing. The evolution of software, and the concept of continuous patching and and modifying of systems that may interact in unexpected ways is less well understood. For much of the software and systems revolution, we have had the comforting backup of needle-ball-airspeed in the cockpit and pilots trained to fly same in command. There is a considerably history now of pilots coping with modern system failures; trim failures, autopilot failures, screens going dark, and dozens of detail issues that nonetheless don’t bring down aircraft because the pilots on board are ale to bring the flight to a successful conclusion.
    This is in addition to the classic issues, like engine out, where the Ghibli Glider or Sully’s Hudson river ditching are two famous saves out of many.
    2. The FAA has probably lost control of the process of instrumentation and software development, and needs to up it’s game.
    3. It was disconcerting to see that basic principles: redundancy of instrumentation, and full pilot awareness, may have been de-emphasized in the evolution of flying to systems management.
    4. We’ll need to work on the machines following a hierarchy, rather than all clamoring for attention at once. There is an old rule that the pilot must first fly the aircraft, maintain airspeed and attitude, and then figure out the other issues. But a modern aircraft may make so many simultaneous demands for attention that its hard for the pilot to sort out what’s wrong.
    5. On the other hand, the trim runaway checklist should be primary and memorized, not something where the computer needs to be activated to go through an incident checklist.
    6. We may have emphasized systems management to the detriment of basic flying skills. To large degree pilots don’t fly the aircraft any longer. They mange the computers that fly the aircraft. We are often told that pilotless aircraft are just around the corner;
    fine until something goes wrong. Not a new argument. Oldtimers will remember the engineers wanted the astronauts to be passengers, the original 7 and their follow-ons insisted on being pilots. They were proven right several times.
    7. The instrument failures were probably neither exotic nor unheard of. It appears (not definitively) that one incident-accident-chain started with a maintenance issue, and the other began with a bird strike.
    8. The MCAS will probably be retained, and refined. It clearly was at the heart of both incidents. The reason of it’s existence is being discussed realistically, now, away form the news cycle. Both members of the commercial aviation duopoly want to evolve existing platforms while retaining type certification for pilots. The general question of using software to allow different aircraft to maintain similar handling characteristics, if this adversely impacts the pilot’s ability to handle the aircraft in extremis, is being rethought. Strangely, in historic terms, it is my impression that Boeing has always been the more conservative company in terms of retaining traditional controls and pilot capabilities. But it is definitely possible that the trend towards producing airliners that require computer control for some of their basic stability a the edges of he flight envelope. This decision is a billions of dollars question. I don’t believe there is a debate that if both mfrs were asked to clean-sheet new designs, using airframe features rather the computers to define flight charactistics, and maintain clear manual/hydraulic control paths. The computers would be retained, of course, to reduce workload in normal flight and increase operating efficiency. I doubt the profit seeking of the airlines & manufacturers will allow scrapping the existing fleet before the end of it’s service life, but we’ll probably see significant standards changes for the next-gen AC. Boeing is probably closer to needing a new single aisle than Airbus, & may get hit first, especially if restrictions (or a stigma) is retained for the 737MAX.
    9. The pilotage remains a difficult questions. I believe the reconstructions always done will tell us the aircraft could have been saved with perfect piloting technique. We are not often lucky enough to have Sullenberger at the stick.
    But there is a question of whether or not our pilot training standards are high enough, and whether or not our pilots maintain basic airmanship skills. I fly now from a grass field where a majority of the aircraft were built before 1960. A dozen or so commercial pilots and a number of corporate pilots regularly fly these stick-and-rudder aircraft. To a man (and woman) they maintain it keeps their skills sharp, tho that is a secondary reason, i’m sure. The assertion that flying an 85 horsepower 1000 pound ragwing taildragger helps one manage a 737 may seem quite a reach. But the reconstruction is likely to say that the fundamental failure of the crew to to fly a flyable airplane, and that the tools available to them were sufficient to land safely.

    The reconstructors are not operating under the stress of a real emergency. IF the pilots were not up to that task of saving the aircraft…..we get down to the basic question, and the political firestorm.

    One group will ask, “what can we do to make it more likely that the pilots can save the aircraft when the inevitable incident occurs?”
    Another will counter ” machines are more reliable that people, who can we add to the systems so that the aircraft will save itself, or avoid the incident entirely”.

    I believe much of our problem is that we have been pushing the pilot and his or her skills out of the equation, rather that emphasizing on a continuing basis the human factors engineering to make coping with extreme events more likely to be successful.

    Reasonable people may differ. I hope we can compromise and improve on both tracks.

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      Richard

      That is “Gimli”

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        Richard Ilfeld

        Thanx – remembered the photo of the plane on the field turned to race course, but misremembered the name. Also remembered ‘fuel exhaustion’.

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      yarpos

      Nice summary

      “We are not often lucky enough to have Sullenberger at the stick.” Some pilots are also not lucky enough (if thats the word) to have a flyable aircraft that isnt fighting them and a scenario where the key decision has been made i.e. one way or anther we are going down

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  • #

    Modern matches.

    I’ve been rebuilding fences after our recent flood. Which was dirty due to windfalls etc since the last in 2012. Thus a lot of flood rubbish which has dried out enough to burn.

    From a new box on 45 “modern matches” I got about 12 piles lit

    Match failure mode for the rest was around equal:-

    Head of match flew off stick on striking without ignition

    Part of head flew off and would not strike on remainder

    Head ignited but failed to ignite stem

    Suggest rebranding to “FUM Brand Matches” (F-ing Useless Matches)

    One son works in the cattle industry. One of his questions after he went to the NT was “When do we get our match issue?”

    Turned out that the stations there got an annual government match issue – of proper “will light” ones.

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      Kinky Keith

      I remember the old matches, pre “safeties”, that would actually light up and burn.

      The current “safety matches” are the PC version which cost like matches, look like matches except for the head colour, but don’t burn like matches because, as everyone knows, fire is dangerous in the hands of anyone but the United Nations.

      KK

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      • #
        Annie

        I buy the extra long ones…more expensive but stronger and more reliable. One match at a time rather than half a boxful of those idiot1c little ones that don’t light and end up broken with the effort of striking them.
        In the UK matches used to be a higher number to the box and strongly made (from Sweden iirc). The number and quality greatly reduced quite a few years ago.

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        Greebo

        Yeah, but carrying around phosphorous lightly coated with wax did pose some risks.

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      Greebo

      Bryant and May used to be in Richmond, Vic. Their matches were excellent. Long gone OS of course, along with their quality. I found a box of Redheads that must have been at least 30 years old. Still fine.

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        Sceptical Sam

        This tells you how old i am;

        I still have a box of Duncan’s 60′s – Heavy Weight – Safety Matches.

        They always had a little humour on the back. The box that’s looking at me from my desk says:

        “Women can keep a secret just as well as men, but it takes more of them to do it.”

        Perhaps it could be rephrased to meet today’s match quality issue in the following way:

        “Chinese made matches can light a fire just as well as Redheads, but it takes more of them to do it”.

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      Greg Cavanagh

      Last year I bought 6 acres north of Gympie. It has never been maintained for the last 27 years (when the estate was created) and was covered with new regrowth. So the first thing I did was buy a pack of Redhead matches and build a furnace to burn the timber, the pack of about 25 or so match boxes. I’ve not yet had a single match that hasn’t lit up.

      I did also buy a pack of fire lighters, the paraffin cubes to get the fire going. Those things are magic. The slightest flame near them and they catch fire, you can throw them in the air and they’ll keep burning. They keep a flame for about 5 minutes, plenty of time to get the wood burning.

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    “Climate change: ‘We’ve created a civilisation hell bent on destroying itself – I’m terrified’, writes Earth scientist”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/05/26/climate-change-weve-created-a-civilisation-hell-bent-on-destroying-itself-im-terrified-writes-earth-scientist/

    Plenty to chew on there

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      David Maddison

      And so we get towards the end of this Leftist article and discover the true agenda…. There is a section titled “Limits to freedom”…

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      theRealUniverse

      That article is scientifically criminal in its staements all of which are TOTAL science bunkum, including his alarmist CO2 graph which is meaningless.

      “The scientific community has been sounding the alarm over climate change for decades. The political and economic response has been at best sluggish. We know that in order to avoid the worst impacts of climate change, we need to rapidly reduce emissions now.”

      We know which scientific community has been sounding alarms, those that deliberately LIE and are in BIG GOVT PAY to LIE or are completely dishonest and should be jailed.

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    el gordo

    As you know Melissa Price did a fantastic job throughout the election campaign by being out of touch with the MSM and Morrison said she can keep her portfolio, but Melissa decided it was too much pressure and has opted for a minor defence portfolio.

    https://reneweconomy.com.au/taylor-gets-energy-and-emissions-portfolio-price-dumped-from-environment-94724/

    Susan Ley is the new environment Minister.

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      el gordo

      This was five days ago and you can see it was a tactical decision by Morrison.

      ‘As Coalition MPs jostle for promotion in Scott Morrison’s new frontbench, Price is understood to have told colleagues it was a tactical decision made by the prime minister and Coalition headquarters to keep her out of the limelight during the campaign. Price was supportive of the move, which ensured Morrison kept the focus on the economy and Labor’s tax agenda.

      “It was a tactic, and so she had to take some skin along the way,” one supporter said.

      Guardian

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    Tony H

    Jim Steele has a good offer at his site for students, an easy $1,000 USD or not,
    http://www.landscapesandcycles.net/-1000-student-climate-award.html

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    David Maddison

    Notice how the Left are now promoting scary stories about methane? The plot here is that Leftists want we Deplorables to stop eating meat (but the Elites will continue to do so). They want the Deplorables to eat insects instead because meat production creates methane (ie cattle f@rt just like communists of the UN). Enjoy your cockroach burgers fellow Deplorables!

    http://www.fao.org/edible-insects/en/

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      DM

      I’ll stick with the “vegetableless vegetables” thanks

      http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2019/05/24/har-6/

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      PeterS

      I wonder when they will get to water vapour given it’s a far more abundant component of our atmosphere than CO2. It’s a real shame scientists as a whole haven’t come out to discredit the CAGW story and put an end to the huge scam. I suspect it’s the fear they will lose funding and their jobs even if they are not involved in climate research. Not sure what it will take for the lid to be blown off apart from a min-ice age. Perhaps it will be the gradual realisation by the public that a scam is indeed being perpetrated on them on a scale never seen before. If that’s the case the end result is clear. The ultimate demise of any political party still promoting action on climate change and the rise of parties opposed to it. Even though the public can be clueless they are not complete fools as they do sniff out a scam given time.

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      Maptram

      Perhaps methane production is like the CO2 production of renewable and fossil fuel generated electricity. With renewable energy, a lot of CO2 is produced in the manufacture, transport, installation etc of renewables and not so much in the production of power. With energy from fossil fuels, some CO2 is produced in the build stage and some through the production stage. But the climate change believers only want to talk about the CO2 produced by fossil fuels.

      Perhaps methane production is similar, methane is produced by plant eaters, ie cattle, when they are used to produce meat but not so much is produced when the meat is cooked and digested. However, no methane is produced when plants are grown for food, but perhaps more methane is produced by the digestive system in a diet that consists solely of food derived from plants, in other words, vegans f@rt more than meat eaters

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        theRealUniverse

        Methane (not a GHG) comes more from natural sources by magnitudes more than livestock farming or other human sources. The crust ifs full of methane it escapes naturally. .. Next item please..

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          As pointed out recently that with a turnover time of around 6 years (IIRC) and a relatively stable animal population that produces it their proportion of the methane level is going nowhere

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      theRealUniverse

      Let them eat ants! They are full of formic acid! (Very few animals have adapted to eat ants.)

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    pat

    heard this on the radio this morning. EDO still taking Adani to court – ignore the voters.

    behind paywall:

    Greenie groups could mount legal battles against Adani
    Fraser Coast Chronicle-2 hours ago
    CONSERVATION groups are poised to mount possible legal battles against mining giant Adani as the Carmichael project inches closer to receiving final approvals from the State Government…
    “As in every case, EDO Qld carefully consider the facts and law before advising clients, who include community groups, landholders, and…

    meanwhile ABC Brisbane gleefully reporting they’d be covering this Monday court appearance today (didn’t hear the segment):

    24 May: TheNewDaily: AAP: Court setback for Indigenous opponents fighting to stop Adani mine
    Traditional owners opposed to Adani’s coal mine have suffered another setback, with a court rejecting a bid to broaden the scope of their complaint against the controversial development.
    The application’s failure means the appeal over Adani’s indigenous land-use agreement with the Wangan and Jagalingou people will go ahead in Brisbane, starting on Monday…
    Adrian Burragubba, a spokesman for traditional owners who oppose the mine, said the mine posed a risk to sacred sites and a spring which should alarm “anybody that comes to this beautiful place”…
    They are appealing a decision that upheld Adani’s Indigenous Land Use Agreement with the Wangan and Jagalingou people.
    https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/queensland/2019/05/24/court-setback-for-indigenous-opponents-fighting-to-stop-adani-mine/

    ABC have been pushing “alarming” for some time:

    Adani coal mine poses ‘alarming’ risk to sacred wetlands, traditional …
    ABC News-30 Apr 2019
    Traditional owners who are fighting the Adani mine in central Queensland say…

    Traditional owners of land surrounding Adani are smiling
    Morning Bulletin-25 May 2019
    THREE years ago the traditional owners of the land surrounding the Adani mine voted 294 to 1 in favour of the mine and Indigenous Land Use …

    Indigenous elder demands green light for Adani megamine
    Courier Mail-13 May 2019
    THE key native title holder over lands impacted by the Carmichael coalmine has warned the State Government it risks a war with indigenous people…

    SBS picks up AAP piece:

    25 May: SBS: AAP: Adani’s upbeat but still has more hurdles
    Adani says construction could start immediately at its mine site once it gets state environment approvals but other major issues are yet to be resolved.
    But there are also some federal approvals, legal challenges and a dispute with some indigenous owners pending.
    Other major issues to resolve include a royalties agreement, Adani’s plans for a rail line and other infrastructure agreements.
    The company will be back before the Federal Court on Monday as some traditional owners continue their fight against the mine.
    They are appealing a decision that upheld Adani’s Indigenous Land Use Agreement with the Wangan and Jagalingou people.
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/adani-s-upbeat-but-still-has-more-hurdles

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    • #
      toorightmate

      How can it possibly proceed when 1 in 295 of the “original inhabitants” opposes it?
      That is just not fair to that poor soul (R Soul).

      110

      • #
        glen Michel

        That is correct. Under the leftist ABC 1 person -well the Burragubba clan of about 6, represents the majority. The ABC’s version of a majority.

        20

      • #
        Greebo

        I expect there is a veto here somewhere.

        20

    • #
      Hanrahan

      Adani coal mine poses ‘alarming’ risk to sacred wetlands, traditional …

      Sacred wetlands? Really? It’s poor country with a couple of dams a la D8.

      30

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Couple of stories on the ABC just in site worth looking at , one about substandard solar panels and installations along with a known fire risk .
    And this one on WA is interesting .

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-27/synergy-to-post-loss-hit-by-wa-power-prices-and-renewable-energy/11151790

    20

  • #
    George4

    UK European elections 2019: Brexit Party dominates as Tories and Labour suffer

    Overall, out of 64 MEPs declared, Mr Farage’s party has won 28, the Lib Dems 15, Labour 10, Greens seven, the Tories three and Plaid Cymru one.

    No surprises the Brexit party won, but kind of ironic to win the European election.
    At least it sends a strong message to everyone.

    90

  • #
    Travis T. Jones

    EU election results as of now:

    Nigel Farage leading in England
    Marine Le Pen leading in France
    Salvini leading in Italy

    A global mass awakening is happening and there is nothing that the global elites or their media henchmen can do to stop it.

    No links yet.

    110

    • #
      Travis T. Jones

      update:

      ‘Green wave’ in EU vote amid climate crisis

      Berlin (AFP) – With double-digit scores across Europe’s biggest countries including a stunning 20 percent in Germany, the Greens bagged record gains in European elections on Sunday with younger voters leading calls for action to halt global warming.

      The environmental party doubled its score in Germany from the last EU elections in 2014, knocking the Social Democrats off their traditional second place.

      In France, the Greens came in number three with 12 percent, while in Austria, Ireland and the Netherlands, they garnered double-digits.

      With the two main traditional EU blocs — the conservative EPP and the centre left Social Democrats projected to lose ground, the Greens could end up as kingmaker in the European Parliament.

      https://news.yahoo.com/green-wave-eu-vote-amid-climate-crisis-194422602.html

      11

      • #
        Ross

        Travis

        I would not take too much notice of the Greens doing better in a number of EU countries because there was only a 51% turnout (on average over the EU. The UK was 37% !!!). But the Greens a good organisers and would have got their supporters out there voting. So if there was a higher turnout I do not think the Green % of the vote would have been so high.

        30

  • #
    Lewis P Buckingham

    This is left field to the above.
    Has anyone advice on a good package for one touch payroll for a business with 4 employees.
    Not an app, just a pc.
    Just the payroll and super, not the rest of the accounting package.
    Its a maze out there and the software engineers seem to be still developing the programs and the accounting firms
    want to sell the biggest package possible.

    40

  • #
    Zane

    In Victoria on the Surf Coast (Corangamite) the opposition ran a huge front page headline in the local rag, the Surf Coast Times, in massive block letters stating ” A VOTE FOR SARAH HENDERSON IS A VOTE FOR NO ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE ” Despicable propaganda from the leftists, and Sarah the Liberal candidate did in fact lose her seat to Labor, their candidate being the former Mayor of the Surf Coast shire. Corangamite was the second most marginal LNP seat in Australia after a redistribution.

    It is sad.

    50

    • #
      Analitik

      I thought it was notionally Labor after the redistribution so it was Henderson who needed to generate a swing in order to “retain” Corangamite.

      Still sad.

      I had hopes for Lilley falling to the coalition last week when the margin fell below 600 with around 17,000 votes still left to count. Unfortunately, the spread has widened out to just over 900 so it’s looking like Labor will retain it.

      30

    • #
      RickWill

      ” A VOTE FOR SARAH HENDERSON IS A VOTE FOR NO ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE ”

      Why is that despicable propaganda. It is good news. The sad part is that the dingbats in the electorate outnumber the well educated and informed skeptics.

      60

  • #
    pat

    where is management at theirABC?

    Sturmer opens with claims security checks and interruptions to Sumo schedule upset people: many people weren’t happy. so-and-so says she hopes he quickly goes home to America. then on to the story.

    AUDIO: 3min01sec: 27 May: ABC AM: Trump’s visit to Japan aims to ease trade tensions
    By Jake Sturmer on AM
    https://www.abc.net.au/radio/adelaide/programs/am/trumps-visit-to-japan-aims-to-ease-trade-tensions/11151768

    usual rubbish from Bevan; only uninformed ABC listeners would fall for it; no mention of Papadopoulos being fed Russian “story” by the likes of Mifsud/Halper/”Azra Turk”. Fran’s interjections at the end are laughable.

    AUDIO: 5min24sec: 27 May: ABC Breakfast: Fran Kelly: Trump calls for investigation into Australia’s role in Russian ‘hoax’ — World News with Matt Bevan
    Trump says the “hoax” of the Russia investigation was part of a “coup attempt” against him and has declassified piles of relevant documents in order for Attorney General Bill Barr to investigate.
    The Trump administration is accusing Australia of participating in a scheme with the Obama-era FBI to set up the Mueller investigation to undermine a potential Trump presidency.
    The accusations follow revelations Former Foreign Minister and High Commissioner to the UK, Alexander Downer met with Trump advisor George Papadopoulos, who Downer says told him about Russian dirt on Hillary Clinton.
    For more on this story, Matt Bevan joins RN Breakfast.
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/world-news-with-matt-bevan/11151696

    headline & summary give no clue Fran pivots to the Downer/Papadopoulos story.

    segment begins 7min8sec to 8min58sec: Fran: a lot of people were surprised to hear the US President directly say he wants China?? investigated… are you satisfied Australia followed correct protocols in reporting George Papadopoulos’s comments about Russia on Hillary Clinton? to the American authorities?

    AUDIO: 12min26sec: 27 May: ABC Breakfast: Fran Kelly: China ‘not the focus’ of Pacific step-up, Payne says
    Guest: Marise Payne, Foreign Affairs Minister; Minster for Women
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/china-not-the-focus-of-pacific-step-up/11151820

    10

    • #
      pat

      SMH chooses Bruce Wolpe/Turnbull-connected US Studies Centre, Sydney Uni, to comment below. reminder:

      ABC: Bruce Wolpe: Bruce Wolpe was on the Democratic staff in Congress in President Obama’s first term. He is a supporter of Hillary Clinton’s campaign. He is chief of staff to former Prime Minister Julia Gillard.
      ABC ARTICLES
      https://www.abc.net.au/news/bruce-wolpe/7374714

      US Studies Centre:
      Patron: Lucy Turnbull AO is the Patron of the United States Studies Centre. She was a member of the Centre’s Board of Directors from 2007 to 2015.
      Non-resident experts includes: Turnbull son-in-law James Brown

      26 May: SMH: Sinodinos tapped for US role as Trump raises questions over Australia
      By Shane Wright
      United States Studies Centre fellow Bruce Wolpe said Senator Sinodinos would be a fine appointment because of his experience and sharp political instincts.
      He said they would come in handy given the move by President Trump to investigate the events of 2016.
      “The trick will be engaging with President Trump and figuring out how to protect Australia’s interests and dealing with a very transactional president,” he said.
      “The Mueller investigation is clearly in the mind of the President and how he thinks about the relationship. There is a big risk from Australia’s perspective that in the future, if there is a request of President Trump, he’s going to take into account the history of the relationship.”

      Mr Morrison would not be drawn on Mr Trump’s comments or move, saying he would not comment on an investigation that was under way…
      https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sinodinos-tapped-for-us-role-as-trump-raises-questions-over-australia-20190526-p51rbd.html

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    pat

    always keep in mind FakeNewsMSM are actors, not observers, in the Spygate scandal:

    VIDEO: 5min: 28 Aug 2018: RealClearPolitics: Meadows: “Hard Evidence” FBI Leaked Info To Press, Used Same Stories To Obtain FISA Warrants
    Posted By Ian Schwartz
    Rep. Mark Meadows (R-NC) said Tuesday that the American people will be “appalled” at what happened within the FBI and DOJ to start the Trump campaign-Russian collusion probe. Meadows said the DOJ leaked information to the press and used those reported stories as evidence to get FISA warrants.
    “I believe that they did. We know that some people at the Department of Justice and FBI actually gave information to the media and then the stories were reported, then they used those reports to justify further investigations,” he said.
    Meadows asked why the FBI ignored evidence that pointed toward no collusion…
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/08/28/meadows_hard_evidence_fbi_leaked_info_to_press_used_same_stories_to_obtain_fisa_warrants.html

    VIDEO: 4min26sec: 16 May: RealClearPolitics: Nunes: The Mueller Report Is “The Mueller Dossier”
    Posted By Ian Schwartz
    Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA), the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, said the reading of the Mueller report on the Hosue floor will be “nice fiction-type reading.”
    NUNES: I’m glad they’re reading it into the record because what I call the Mueller report is the ‘Mueller dossier.’ It’s a fantasy. In fact, anybody who pays — the American people paid nearly $40 million for the most powerful law enforcement agency in the world, the FBI, who is working under the direction of the Mueller dossier team and they supported this with news stories. I’m sorry, I don’t pay the FBI or the Mueller dossier team to go out and just get news stories to support their information…
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/05/16/nunes_the_mueller_report_is_the_mueller_dossier.html

    NO SURPRISE THE FAKENEWSMSM IS STILL TRYING TO CONTROL THE NARRATIVE. BRENNAN LOOKS SCARED:

    26 May: Townhall: WATCH: Brennan Explains The Bogus Reason He Believes It’s ‘Outrageous’ For Barr To Investigate Russia Probe Origins
    by Beth Baumann
    Former CIA Director John Brennan appeared on MSNBC’s “All in with Chris Hayes” to discuss the decision.
    According to Brennan, Barr investigating the origins of the Russia probe is “outrageous.”…

    When will Democrats and the mainstream media give it up? They wanted Trump investigated. They got their investigation. They got to pick their guy – Special Counsel Robert Mueller – and he found no collusion and no obstruction. In fact, it was revealed that the FISA warrants that were used to start the probe weren’t vetted. The American people want to know how so much of their taxpayer funds were used for this phony investigation. They want to know exactly how this started so it never happens again…
    Buckle your seats, folks. This is about to be a bumpy ride.
    ***VIDEO: 11min12sec: Brennan begins 3min50sec to the end.
    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethbaumann/2019/05/26/bogus-brennan-believes-barr-investigating-origins-of-russia-probe-is-outrageous-n2546909

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    • #
      pat

      24 May: Breitbart: Joe Biden Reportedly Involved in Controversial Early Stages of 2016 Russia Probe
      by Aaron Klein
      That tidbit was contained deep inside a 7,700-plus word Washington Post article (LINK) published June 23, 2017 in which the newspaper also detailed the highly compartmentalized nature of the original Russia interference investigation and the manner in which other U.S. intelligence agencies were deliberately kept in the dark. Part of the efforts eventually involved unsubstantiated and ultimately discredited charges made by the Christopher Steele dossier that Trump campaign officials were colluding with Russia…

      Adding another layer of secrecy, the newspaper reported that when the closed Cabinet sessions on Russia began in the White House Situation Room in August, the video feed from the main room was cut off during the meetings…

      Comey, Brennan and Clapper have been the subjects of a dispute (LINK) in recent weeks over which top Obama administration officials advocated for the infamous dossier to be utilized as evidence in the Russia collusion investigation, as Breitbart News reported (LINK)…READ ALL
      https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/05/24/joe-biden-reportedly-involved-in-controversial-early-stages-of-2016-russia-probe/

      30

  • #
    TdeF

    Nigel Farage is triumphant in the UK part of the EU elections, while the Tories and Labor fight to ingratiate themselves with Brussels. Utterly out of touch with the people they allegedly represent. Equally in France, Le Pen has beaten Macron. There is a seismic change in Europe, as in the US, Brazil, Italy and even Australia.

    The people not in the big cities have had enough. While the City of Melbourne voted 50% Green and inner bayside 28%, the vast areas of Australia think the inner city is stuffed with overpaid and indulged loonies who have no idea, the Eloi of modern society. Even parasites on the workers. The new effete aristocracy. The Me Too people of the inner cities are really all ‘Me First’. If they are in charge, nothing will change. Canberra rules. Washington rules. Brussels rules. London rules. And the people are angry. We are seeing political Climate Change.

    Similarly in the US where the cities of New York, Los Angeles and Chicago and Washington all vote Democrat and consider the rest of America deplorables who should not have a vote. However even leading black figures like Kanye West want to know why they are no better off after eight years of a black president. The Latinos of Florida cheered Trump’s election.

    As with Australia, Italy’s Salvini’s stand on illegal immigration has saved thousands of lives and stopped the black market in people.
    It remains for the people of Germany to demand to use the plentiful brown coal which is their birthright instead of being dependent on Russian gas and oil. Otherwise the new Macron/Merkel Political Union, the new German/French Empire will start again what they started in 1812 and 1941 and demands for a (nuclear armed) European Army should worry the world. Their official enemies? Russia and the US.

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  • #
    pat

    read all:

    Updated 27 May: UK Sun: FARAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE Brexit Party storms to victory in EU elections smashing Tories and Labour in historic win for Nigel Farage
    Nigel Farage’s party has come top of the European Parliament elections with the Lib Dems in second
    By Hugo Gye, Alex Matthews and Mark Hodge
    Millions of voters deserted the two main parties and flocked to Mr Farage in a bid to show their fury at the failure of the political class to deliver Brexit…
    The Brexit Party swept the board – winning every single region of Britain except heavily pro-Remain London and Scotland. It is now set to be the biggest party from ANY country in the European Parliament…

    With nearly all of the UK’s councils having declared, Mr Farage’s party was far ahead on 32 per cent with the Lib Dems second on 20 per cent.
    Labour were languishing on 14 per cent with the Greens on 12 per cent and the Tories lagging on just 9 per cent – their worst result ever…
    The Brexit Party won 29 of the country’s 73 MEPs – and the Tories picked up just four seats…
    Veteran Tory MEP Dan Hannan admitted: “This is the worst result my party has suffered in its 185-year history.”…READ ALL
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9158746/brexit-party-european-election-nigel-farage-victory/

    60

    • #
      AndyG55

      Farage must realise by now that he made a HUGE mistake in taking a back seat after the Brexit referendum.

      He now needs to stay on and push this through to the very end.. and beyond.

      70

      • #
        beowulf

        Farage just took 51.8% in his own electorate of Thurrock with Labour 2nd on 15% and forget the rest.

        Farage is now far less naïve than he was 3 years ago — and so he should be. That was a fiasco. The Brexit Party already has candidates lined up in anticipation of a general election should a snap poll be called as part of the parliamentary manoeuvrings to thwart Brexit. There is a real possibility in that instance, that Farage could be launched straight into the PM job, given that he won’t want to play around in Brussels when the real prize is up for grabs in Whitehall, and given the UK’s first-past-the-post voting system.

        This EU election run as a de facto referendum on the government and the lack of Brexit has concretely shown the level of support for the Brexit Party and for a genuine Brexit, which the main parties are still not prepared to give and which the BP could capitalise on in national elections.

        Meanwhile, back at the ranch, just when you thought Theresa couldn’t do any more damage as a caretaker PM, you’d be wrong. The Lib-Dems (arch remainers) are asking Theresa to put forward a bill to knobble a WTO No Deal Brexit permanently and make revocation of Article 50 (to leave the EU) the new default position if nothing else is agreed to by parliament. May could be pretend PM for months yet while 8 contenders wrangle over who is to be her replacement. Even though she technically steps down on June 7th, she still has effective control until her successor takes the reins. It took 5 ½ months for her predecessor David Cameron to get elected as PM, so there could be plenty more time for her to do her worst before she is finally turfed out of No 10. The Lib-Dems want to block any move by a pro-Brexit PM to use prorogation to stop parliament interfering in the current default of WTO Brexit on Halloween.

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  • #

    “Despite renewables mandate more than 80% of California energy needs met using fossil fuels”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/05/26/despite-renewables-mandate-more-than-80-of-california-energy-needs-met-using-fossil-fuels/

    One of Jeremy Clarkson’s favourite questions seems to be “How hard can it be?”

    The answer to that question re the above mandate seems to be “Much harder”

    40

    • #
      yarpos

      As if often stated here, you can mandate, subsidise, pontificate, believe and emote all you like; but in the end reality is always still their just waiting for you.

      10

  • #
    Maptram

    Looking at the AEC website, Senate results, Senate results by state, each state, Provisional quota, in NSW, Vic and Qld, the Greens are well short of 1.00. In WA, SA and Tas, they are a bit closer to 1.00. Although I’m not an expert, the results do not look good for the Greens

    50

    • #
      George4

      This ABC senate results page says

      The Greens went into the election with nine members, three continuing and six facing re-election. The Greens are certain to re-elect five of their members and are currently leading for their sixth seat in Queensland.

      Doesn’t seem too bad for the Greens unfortunately

      30

    • #
      AndyG55

      Looking at the percentage below them, a lot of those vote won’t flow to the Greens.

      More likely to flow to ON or LNP

      Where would PUP votes end up ?

      Preference distributions still have a lot to say. !

      70

    • #
      PeterS

      There will always be a certain % of voters who are clueless. It probably will increase over time thanks mostly to our schools who have now become propaganda machines for the left.

      60

      • #
        toorightmate

        Without exception, the Greens are clueless.

        51

        • #
          el gordo

          The Greens have to drop climate change and return to the environment, then go into a coalition with Labor to remain politically relevant.

          10

  • #
    pat

    MSM has “greens surge” in almost all eu election coverage, but almost none are giving figures. here are some of them. NOTE SWEDEN, including how BBC hides it in the Finland coverage:

    26 May: BBC: European elections 2019: What we know so far
    PIC AT TOP OF ARTICLE: Germany’s Green Party doubled its share of the vote…
    2. Green wave
    Many European countries have seen a rise in the Green vote, from the Nordic countries to Portugal.
    In Germany the Green party more than doubled its vote share to come second with 22%…
    In France, green group Europe Écologie Les Verts (EELV) is on course to come third with 13.2%…
    In Portugal, the green PAN party (People-Animals-Nature) is on course to win its first ever seat in the European Parliament, possibly even two. (NO PERCENT GIVEN)

    The Greens have won a historic second place in Finland ***but in Sweden, home to climate activist Greta Thunberg, they have gone into reverse. They are projected to poll 9.5%, down almost 6%.

    In Ireland, early exit polls give the Green party 15%…
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48415362

    typical MSM coverage, with no figures:

    27 May: Reuters: Greens seek to leverage EU wins to push climate agenda
    by Alissa de Carbonnel
    Many of the gains came from the northern European countries that were once the continent’s industrial heartlands where, often ***inspired by 16-year-old Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg…
    Germany’s Greens leapt into second place behind Chancellor Angela Merkel’s CDU conservatives…
    Greens also doubled their share of the vote to take two seats in Finland and Denmark, won their first two seats in Ireland in two decades, grabbed third place in France and were set for strong showings in Belgium, the Netherlands and Britain – the latter partly as a result of being clearly anti-Brexit…

    The Greens added at least 15 more seats in Parliament, where there will be now weeks of bargaining among all the parties to form a stable majority. The stakes are high amid fears by some that unprecedented gains by populist nationalists will seek to hijack or block a pro-European agenda.
    Leaders of the pan-European Green alliance projected said their support will not come cheap…
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-election-greens/greens-seek-to-leverage-eu-wins-to-push-climate-agenda-idUKKCN1SW0VT

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    • #
      pat

      27 May: Guardian: Jon Henley: Greens surge as parties make strongest ever showing across Europe
      Greens in Denmark, ***Sweden, Belgium, Luxembourg and Austria also scored highly…(NO FIGURES)

      don’t know if I’m reading the following properly; sometimes you have to click SEE FULL RESULTS to get the figures:

      EU elections 2019: Country-by-country guide
      Denmark:
      The Socialist party is in third (13.2%) while the Red-Green Alliance looks set to win its first ever seat at the European Parliament with 11%.
      Belgium:
      Greens – 7.45%
      Luxembourg:
      The Green Party came in third with 18.91% of the vote, official results show.
      Austria:
      GRÜNE (Greens) – 14%
      https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/25/eu-elections-2019-country-by-country-guide-on-what-to-look-out-for

      that doesn’t tell how the Green vote compared with previous election.

      10

      • #
        pat

        not final:

        Associated Press: Pro-EU parties still were expected to win about two-thirds of the 751-seat legislature that sits in Brussels and Strasbourg, according to the projections released by the parliament and based on the results rolling in overnight.

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  • #
  • #
    pat

    referring back to Matt Bevan on ABC Breakfast this morning – link in comment #43.

    Bevan begins with rubbish about people tweeting conspiracy theories following his interview with Alexander Downer last week.

    AUDIO: 28min06sec: 22 May: ABC: Russia If You’re Listening: Matt Bevan
    https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/russia-if-youre-listening/full-interview-with-alexander-downer/11138740

    TEXT: 24 May: ABC: George Papadopoulos and Alexander Downer tell us everything
    Russia, If You’re Listening By Matthew Bevan and Ruby Jones
    (ENDING) Mr Downer, who is now executive chairman of the International School of Government at King’s College in London, said the theories spouted by Mr Papadopoulos are impossible.
    “This sort of idea that there is a kind of a ASIS-ASIO-MI6-MI5-FBI-CIA-Ukrainian Government conspiracy to bring down the Trump administration, that this is treason, that I should be in Guantanamo Bay… I mean it’s a little bit sad that people take that kind of thought seriously,” he said
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-24/mueller-investigation-george-papadopoulos-alexander-downer-speak/11107712

    theirABC has been peddling conspiracy theories about Donald Trump for 2 years or more, and don’t look like stopping.

    2 May: ABC Breakfast: Frank Kelly: US Attorney General William Barr defends summary of Mueller report
    There are growing calls for US Attorney General William Barr to resign or be impeached over his handling of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia report…
    Guest: Laurence Tribe, Professor of Constitutional Law, Harvard University
    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/us-attorney-general-william-barr-mueller-report/11065460

    Wikipedia: Laurence Tribe
    Controversially, Tribe has promoted unreliable sources and conspiracy theories about Donald Trump.
    Tribe removed the posted tweets following the Palmer Report and contests the accuracy of the story of controversy…
    Tribe was part of Al Gore’s legal team regarding the results of the United States presidential election, 2000…
    Tribe served as a judicial adviser to the Barack Obama’s 2008 presidential campaign…
    After the dismissal of James Comey in May 2017, Tribe wrote: “The time has come for Congress to launch an impeachment investigation of President Trump for obstruction of justice.”…
    Tribe has stirred controversy due to his promotion of unreliable claims about President Trump’s fitness for office…
    According to McKay Coppins of The Atlantic, Tribe has been “an especially active booster” of the Palmer Report, “a liberal blog known for peddling conspiracy theories”…

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  • #
    pat

    some fun:

    22 May: Guido Fawkes: Investigation: “Led by Donkeys unmasked as Greenpeace campaigners
    Guido’s campaign for transparency over big-spending anti-Brexit campaign ‘Led By Donkeys’ has paid off. The Electoral Commission now are reporting details of who the mysterious campaign are – who have raised almost half a million pounds to fight Brexit in the last few months. Guido can now unm-ass-k the donkeys. You may spot a pattern…READ ON
    https://order-order.com/2019/05/22/led-donkeys-unmasked-greenpeace-campaigners/

    25 May: Guardian: Led by Donkeys show their faces at last: ‘No one knew it was us’
    by Harriet Sherwood
    The four men behind the nationwide Brexit billboard phenomenon finally reveal their identities – in the pub where it all began…

    Now, the creators of Led By Donkeys have decided to go public. Ben Stewart, James Sadri, Oliver Knowles and Will Rose are hitting back against claims by rightwing bloggers and trolls that they are a shadowy, anonymous group by revealing their identities and motives. “It feels like the right time to say who we are and defend our work and views. We’re proud of what we’ve done,” said Knowles, 43.

    The four have been targeted by the Guido Fawkes website, which claimed to have “unmasked” them as “Greenpeace campaigners” last week after they registered their names with the Electoral Commission. Stewart and Knowles do indeed work for Greenpeace, and Sadri and Rose have previously worked for the environmental campaign group, but Led By Donkeys is an entirely freelance amateur operation. “No one at work knew we were doing this,” said Stewart, 45…READ ON
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/25/led-by-donkeys-reveal-identities-brexit-billboards-posters

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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    A couple of days ago this little story came my way in one of those emails that get passed around long after their expiration date has passed. And I expect it’s supposed to be a joke.

    But then I looked at it through a different lens. How much better might the world be if we talked to each other more often? And in days when power outage is such a worry, it might offer something there too.

    You be the judge.

    ———————————–

    An Old Golfer Speaks out:

    We had a power outage at our house this morning and my PC, laptop, TV, DVD, iPad & my new surround sound music system were all shut down.

    Then I discovered that my mobile phone battery was dead and, to top it off, it was raining outside, so I couldn’t play golf.

    I went into the kitchen to make coffee and then I remembered that this also needs power, so I sat and talked with my wife for a couple of hours.

    She seems like a nice person.

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    robert rosicka

    Just looking at the comments on Facebook about Albo getting the top job and can’t find one that’s positive towards him , lots of comments about his statement on emissions and the consensus is he hasn’t learned a thing and the next election they will get trounced .
    Will be interesting to see the first poll and the results for preferred leader .

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    robert rosicka

    I’ve also noticed our trolls have been rather silent since the election

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    el gordo

    Half the population of China want nothing to do with GM.

    https://thediplomat.com/2019/05/chinas-gmo-paradox/

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      robert rosicka

      Odd that GMO is out considering the other nasty stuff they taint their food with , melamine in baby formula for just one .

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    jack

    Global warming climaphobe dodos predict no more snow on Australian snowfields in the near future.
    Well being a benevolent type of fellow, I am willing to purchase for $10 their soon to be worthless snowboards.
    I know, don’t thank me, just doing my bit to make the world a better place. :-)

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    Hanrahan

    Is a fly that falls into your wine a swim?

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    The only thing for which I find bamboo fabric superior is underwear, though I’d have to say my bamboo duvet covers are fine for purpose. It makes good sheets but nothing beats real linen for me. Everything else feels slithery once you get hooked on that grainy texture.

    Here is an optimistic summary of the more advanced method of turning cellulose to fabric. The claim is recovery of 99% of the solvent. It’s also stated that the tech involved is pretty high and demanding. The big bamboo bedding retailer Ettitude claims to use all lyocell.

    I can’t see how rayon/modal/tencel/lyocell can be “bamboo” as distinct from “eucalyptus” or any other cellulose source once processed. Bamboo’s main advantage over wood is in speed of growth and ease of harvesting, as far as I can see.

    But moso bamboo used in the raw is something else. This video (highly professional but not letting on) has rightly been a world-wide hit…

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    • #

      This was meant to be a continuation of the chat with Another Ian re fibres and fabrics. Instead it landed down the end here.

      The video of the girl making moso furniture has had nearly 20 million views. Another one in the series, about harvesting persimmons, has topped it with 24 million.

      I know there’s an expert crew involved in making these vids look so simple, but I’m a total mug for it all.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHTnuI9IKBA

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    tom0mason

    @matteosalvinimi: “It is not only Lega that is the first in Italy, in France its Le Pen’s National Rally, Nigel Farage’s BREXIT is first in Britain. It is the sign of a Europe that is changing, of a Europe tired of the powers of the elites and multinationals. Tomorrow, we will have to redouble our efforts!”

    The EU is now showing how disunited they really are. The crony capitalism of the EU elites is gradually unwinding on them, with much public discontent with the status quo.

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    toorightmate

    A couple of political things, which is most unusual for me (cough cough).
    1. Albo says he is no Tony Abbot – you can say that again Cecil. You are not fit to tie Abbot’s bootlaces. Your only achievement which Abbot has not accomplished is attending Thai brothels.
    2. Could someone please tell the ABC and Fairfax that the election is over. They are still campaigning as hard as they can for the Greens and the ALP.

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      ABCand Fairfax have worked out that they didn’t start campaigning for the last election soon enough and they’re not going to be caught short for the next /s

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    pat

    not sure what all this means, or whether it is true, but thought it interesting:

    behind paywall:

    26 May: UK Times: Letter: National Grid has blown a fuse on electric cars
    I noted your article (“Drivers plugging into an electric future will need a lot of chargers”, May 12) on the problems with the proposed electrification of the country’s cars and vans.
    Unfortunately, the problems are much worse than you made them out to be, and they are exacerbated by institutionalised lying by National Grid.
    I have been trying for a year to get the company to change the way it calculates the extra generating capacity it says will be required to power the electrified fleet — and have met with ignorance and resistance; I have even been told to go away.
    It is intent on using an imaginary figure entitled “propulsion ratio”, which it is taking as “0.25KwH [kilowatt hours] per mile”, to calculate a figure for additional capacity that it puts at 64 terawatt hours (TwH) per year. The 0.25 figure is supposed to represent the mean consumption of the entire fleet of cars and vans.
    National Grid is determined to continue with this approach in spite of evidence that energy use could be as high as 160TwH. Additionally, all the evidence from owners’ clubs is that the 0.25 figure is unachievable and deliberately low…
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/national-grid-has-blown-a-fuse-on-electric-cars-qzsw29wrq

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    pat

    nowhere to hide?

    27 May: ClimateChangeNews: EU plans first satellite fleet to monitor CO2 in every country
    Three orbiters will give first complete view of earth’s surface, transforming the way carbon emissions are monitored and reported
    By Karl Mathiesen
    Europe is readying a new fleet of satellites that will monitor CO2 emissions at every point on earth, creating the first worldwide system to independently track polluters…

    The fleet of three satellites is slated for launch in 2025, in time to inform the UN’s global stocktake of greenhouse gas emissions three years later, the European Space Agency (ESA) confirmed to Climate Home News.
    The project is well advanced. The ESA has begun consultations with industry on building the newly-designed Sentinel 7 spacecraft, which will cost an estimated €633 million. Funding depends on the EU’s 2021-2027 budget, which needs to be agreed by the European Parliament and member states.

    Guido Levini, the manager of the ESA’s Copernicus space segment programme, said he had a “high level of confidence” the funding would be secured, as the project had received blanket support from EU governments…
    https://www.climatechangenews.com/2019/05/27/eu-plans-satellite-fleet-monitor-co2-every-country/

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    pat

    the green surge:

    2019 European Parliament election results
    Greens/EFA 69 seats (out of 751) – 9.2%

    lots of facts & figures:

    8 Mar: Europe Elects: What’s in for the Greens in the 2019 European elections?
    The Greens/EFA, which is one of nine European Parliament groups, currently holds 51 out of 751 seats in the EU legislature.
    https://europeelects.eu/2019/03/08/whats-in-for-the-greens-in-the-2019-european-elections/

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      pat

      27 May: New European: ‘Green wave’ sweeps across UK as party doubles number of MEPs
      by Jonathon Read
      The number of Green MEPs in England and Wales rose from three to seven as its share of the vote increased by 4.6% to 12.47%, putting the party in fourth place, comfortably ahead of the Tories on 8.81%
      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/green-wave-sweeps-across-uk-as-party-doubles-number-of-meps-1-6072909

      check for GREENS in the map of regions in the following!

      27 May: UK Express: European elections: Should May call a SNAP ELECTION following Tory disaster? Vote HERE
      (SCROLL DOWN) MAP: EU elections: How your area voted. caption: European election results in the UK MAPPED
      https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1132561/european-elections-results-brexit-latest-uk-snap-election-poll-theresa-may-nigel-farage

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        pat

        Sky UK has been showing a deceptive figures to suggest UK Brexit/Remain is almost evenly divided. they do so by showing Hard Brexit (Brexit Party & UKIP) at around 37% compared to Brexit/compromise figure around 23-24% and Remain at around 40%. similar to figures below; however, the middle group is, presumably, mostly pro-Brexit in some form!

        27 May: UK Telegraph: Who won the UK’s European elections – Leave or Remain?
        By Josh Wilson and Ashley Kirk
        While the Brexit Party was the clear individual winner in the UK’s European elections, picking up almost a third of the national vote, straightforwardly pro-Brexit parties were actually out-polled by those who are arguing for a second referendum.
        The Lib Dems, Greens, the SNP, Plaid and Change UK – all backers of a second referendum – collectively gained the support of 39.1 per cent of the public in England, Wales and Scotland, against no-dealers Ukip and the Brexit Party’s collective 33.7 per cent.

        Meanwhile the two Establishment parties, the Labour and Conservative parties which campaigned on a compromise Brexit ticket, suffered heavy losses with less than a quarter of the vote between them…
        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/27/won-uks-european-elections-leave-remain/

        ***BBC – correction: it should be “behind the Brexit Party (32%) and the Liberal Democrats (20%). Corbyn clearly recognises some Labor voters are pro-Brexit:

        27 May: BBC: European elections 2019: Jeremy Corbyn refuses to explicitly back another referendum
        He was speaking after the party won 14% of the vote in EU elections…
        When asked if he would back a second referendum, and campaign for the UK to remain in the EU, he said there should be “an agreement made” (with the EU) which was then “put to a public vote”.
        Mr Corbyn also denied that he was “riding two horses and had fallen flat on his face”…

        With only Northern Ireland left to declare, Labour is on 14% of the vote – worse than the party’s previous low in 2009 – and finished in fifth place in Scotland.
        Across Britain, it is in third place, ***behind the Liberal Democrats (20%) and the Brexit Party (32%)…
        https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48419144

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          pat

          27 May: Reuters: Fragmented parliament complicates EU leadership contest
          by Gabriela Baczynska
          The two biggest centrist groups in the current European Parliament – the European Peoples’ Party (EPP) to the right and the Socialists & Democrats (S&D) on the left – will no longer hold a majority in the new 751-seat chamber, estimates showed.
          Together, the two are expected to be down from 401 lawmakers to 332 seats in the next five-year European Parliament, short of the 376-vote majority needed to approve a new head of the bloc’s executive European Commission…

          Weber’s center-left rival, Dutchman Frans Timmermans, called for a “progressive” alliance of pro-EU forces, though the socialists, liberals and greens together would still lack a majority…
          https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-election-institutions/fragmented-parliament-complicates-eu-leadership-contest-idUSKCN1SW0ZM?feedType=RSS&feedName=newsOne

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    pat

    Sam Mac, Weatherman on Sunrise on the Seven Network, is nominated for a Logie!

    27 May: ABC: Full list of nominations for the 2019 TV Week Logie Awards
    The Gold Logie for most popular personality on Australian TV
    •Sam Mac (Sunrise)
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-27/the-nominations-for-the-2019-tv-week-logie-awards/11152540

    29 Mar: news.com.au: Sunrise weatherman Sam Mac admits he can’t actually read the weather
    YOU might think being a weatherman would require the right skills — but apparently not so, according to a confession by Sunrise’s weatherman Sam Mac.
    by Matt Young
    RAIN? Who knows! Hail? Who cares! Sunshine? Here’s hopin’!
    If Sunrise weatherman Sam Mac was to actually produce the weather report himself, this might be the type of stuff we’d hear on the morning box. Why, you ask?
    Because this man ain’t no meteorologist, despite the fact it’s kind of his job…

    In an interview on Rove and Sam this morning, Mac admitted his role on the breakfast program was less meteorologist and something more like a stuntman — admitting to the radio duo that he doesn’t know a thing about how to read the weather…

    “Thing is, a lot of my friends thought when they heard I was getting this role, they’re like, ‘oh, I didn’t know you were a meteorologist’,” Mac said.
    “I’m like, ‘I’m not a meteorologist. Actually, in fact I’m going to be eating the world’s hottest chilli, I’m going to be bungee jumping, I’m going to be doing aerial aerobatics, I’m going to be doing everything but…
    https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/morning-shows/sunrise-weatherman-sam-mac-admits-he-cant-actually-read-the-weather/news-story/aa4483386f975861fb484c3aaed9af1f

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    David Wojick

    The EU elections show polarization growing. This may support my prediction:
    https://www.cfact.org/2019/04/05/2020-climate-madness-looms/

    Gird thyself.

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      Graeme No.3

      Good article. There is the possibility that the EU won’t be that keen either, if the UK stops contributing and Germany slides into a recession (which could be made worse by any clumsy tariff moves against the UK) then the only remaining net contributor (Germany) might not have the funds available.
      The majority of EU members, most of whom play only lip service to the scam, certainly won’t want to contribute money or scorch their economies. Nor will Germany with the public restive and the AfD gaining support, and it is german money which cements the whole EU edifice. Brexit may be the catalyst for the whole EU bureaucrats thing to collapse, or back to a Common Market.

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        David Wojick

        Given the election results the EU may be deadlocked, or paralyzed, or some such. It will be fun to see how they pick the Commissioners (Commisars?) now.

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    pat

    ABC finally noticed? no doubt they’ll get credit for exposing what they should have been informing the public about for years:

    27 May: Youtube: 12min05sec: ABC 7.30 Report: The dark side of Australia’s rooftop solar energy obsession
    posted by ABC News (Australia)
    Rooftop solar is considered one of Australia’s renewable energy success stories.
    But an audit of the clean energy regulator has found there are potentially tens of thousands of badly installed and even unsafe systems on rooftops.
    Some experts even believe Australia has become a dumping ground for poor quality solar products.
    Liz Hobday takes a look at the big picture, including how effectively, or otherwise, solar is helping Australia meet its clean energy targets.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Gnf-wvF7A

    27 May: ABC: Australia’s obsession with cheap solar is derailing the market, insiders say
    7.30 By Liz Hobday and Sybilla Gross
    The ANAO found (ONLY?) 1.2 per cent of rooftop solar installations have been inspected by the regulator.
    The regulator’s inspections found that about one in six solar installations was “substandard”, and about one in 30 was “unsafe”.
    Based on the sample, the audit found there would be hundreds of thousands of substandard installations and tens of thousands of unsafe solar systems across the country…
    Wollongong resident Rex Leighton spent $8,000 installing a rooftop solar system in 2015, which he expected would last for at least 25 years.
    It only lasted four and a half years…

    Mr Fleury was just one of dozens of solar installers 7.30 spoke to who said poor-quality rooftop solar was all too common.
    “A large amount of those earlier panels, since I’d say 2008 all the way till 2014, a lot of those panels have come back down off roofs,” he said…
    One of the worst-performing panels she had tested from the Australian market was a panel that produced 12 per cent less electricity than its advertised rating…
    Dr McCann said some overseas manufacturers were sending poor-quality solar products to Australia, knowing they would not be checked…

    Homes destroyed by rooftop solar fires…
    The National Audit Office found some of the risks of batteries include electric shock, gas explosion, fire, and chemical exposure…
    Renewable energy certificates not cancelled if system fails…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-27/australias-obsession-with-cheap-solar-derailing-market-insiders/11139856

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    el gordo

    Angus Taylor on Sky is doing his level best to avoid talking about new Hele coal fired power stations.

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      Kinky Keith

      Not a good omen.

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        el gordo

        Plenty of time, Morrison gave Ita Buttrose the head honcho job at our ABC and the first thing she did was to bring in Speers.

        What we are about to witness is a quiet revolution, the masses need to be reeducated by purging the newsroom of pseudo Marxists and bringing the organisation back to the centre. Then we’ll get our Hele.

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          Bodge it an scarpa

          Speeds IMO comes across as one of the more left leaning commentators on Skye News, so I’m not as confident as you are that he would be a force for change at the ABC.

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    Egor the One

    I see that the Photios / Hawke globull warmer renwables rackets cohort are filling up liberal senate seats with their lackeys, cronies , and yes men ……a new coalition government(good) , but still the same shysters and racketeers pulling the strings(bad) under the fakery of the Old ‘ da save da planet ‘ Trick !

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    Anonymous

    This is the BEST video anywhere relating to the correct atmospheric physics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT1iFhGKOI8&feature=youtu.be

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    Hanrahan

    The bluddy Bradfield scheme is all the rage since the election. It was a big topic on Credlin tonight. This is crazy, it can’t work.

    I have raised this issue here before inviting believers to say which river is the Coorong’s saviour. No one has taken up the challenge.

    Some facts about northern rivers:

    When they flood a lot of water flows into the sea, true, BUT it is only for a few days and not every year. How do you build a pipe/canal able to move a couple of Syd Harbs in two days and then sit idle for a few years? BTW the Townsville flood was a once in a lifetime event.

    The east flowing rivers have pretty small catchments, remember the Great Divide is not far from the coast, A day after the rain stops, the flood stops. For the rest of the year the locals believe what water remains is THEIRS.

    I think we have excluded all northern rivers except the Burdekin and the Fitzroy. I can’t speak of the Fitzroy, I know nothing of it. The Burdekin can indeed flood Syd Harbs/day and for a week or more and does so most years. But the rest of the year its water is committed to farmers in the Burdekin/Herbert and as an emergency supply for Townsville.

    The only possibility of new, reliable uncommitted water would be Hells Gate in the upper reaches of the Burdekin. It is on the western slope of the range which solves one obvious problem – pumping.

    It is too far to carry water in an open canal in the summer [only time there is water available] so it must be piped. Its way beyond my pay grade to calculate how big that pipe would need to be and how much it would cost but my guess ia that it would dwarf the F 35 and NBN. Prolly more than them combined.

    Rereading this I see the same problem for the Bradfield Scheme as we all see with wind/solar – Too expensive, too intermittant.

    Show me I’m wrong.

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      Chad

      Hanrahan,..
      This is an important subject that has to be fully investigated.
      I respect your obvious advanced research on some of the isues, but my understanding is there have been several reviews, and alternative proposals to the original “Bradfield” plan, with a lot of expert input both technical and financial.
      The most recent being the enhanced Hells Gate plan to store seasonal flood water and redirect it inland via existing inland flowing rivers.
      Ignoring the technical or financial viability of that , or any similar, proposal, it seems the biggest problem is political inertia ( probably fearful of environmental backlash)
      Lets try and pick this up again in the next “unthreaded” oportunity…
      Its too big and has so much potential , to be brushed aside without full eveluation.

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    Aussie Pete

    Replying to sophocles comment 3.2.1.1.6
    Thank you for all you said, I think there are quite a number of us basically on the same page. I have a number of ideas about all of this and wish to pursue it. I am a bit busy working at the moment but just wanted to let you know that I had read your post and will get back again when time permits.
    Cheers

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