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Bill Shorten wasting your money on batteries

By David Evans

Joanne called today from Doha, on her way to give a speech in Germany. I mentioned that Bill Shorten was promising to a rebate of up to $2,000 per household to install residential batteries … and a quarter of a second I heard “what a brilliant way to waste a lot of money!

Batteries schmatteries:

Bill Shorten unveils $15bn energy plan to help tackle climate ‘disaster’, by Katharine Murphy.

Bill Shorten has unveiled a $15bn program for driving the transformation in Australia’s energy system to low-emissions sources, declaring climate change is no longer an emergency, “it’s a disaster”. …

Labor is proposing an emissions reduction target across the economy of 45% and aims to have renewables achieve a 50% share of the electricity market by 2030.

Eight coal-fired power stations are set to close over the next two decades because they have reached the end of their operating life, and Labor’s higher emissions reduction target will drive a faster rationalisation.

What do you think? Is Bill Shorten’s climate plan a disaster for Australia? Should the Federal Government have conducted some due diligence before heading down this path?

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Rating: 8.9/10 (128 votes cast)
Bill Shorten wasting your money on batteries, 8.9 out of 10 based on 128 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/y6ulffzz

374 comments to Bill Shorten wasting your money on batteries

  • #
    AndyG55

    Although minor ramifications of this “climate” tom-foolery will start to be felt over the next few years, with intermittent blackouts and “load-sharing”…

    .. it is the future generations that aren’t going to know what reliable, cheap electricity is.

    And they are the ones bringing it on themselves.

    They will notice it big time when the communications networks drop out, and they are not able to text their friends next door. !!

    567

    • #

      Like Chinese whispers,yr IPCC
      model projections and renewable
      energy inefficiencies, ( versus
      24/7 fossil fuel efficiencies,)
      wherein errors compound over time.

      261

    • #

      A stunning Labor plan! What could possibly go wrong?

      301

      • #
        Dennis

        Nothing, China’s economy wins, battery suppliers get top dollar retail for their product, finance companies profit ….

        Pink batt-eries costed on another Labor beer coaster.

        290

        • #
          Greg Cavanagh

          Indeed. Exactly like the pink bats scam, the price of batteries and installations double over night. Labor never learn a trick do they.

          223

        • #
          Ted O'Brien.

          Top dollar Dennis? Who knows why?

          In the early 1980s we had a bad drought in NSW. The price of lucerne hay was $3 a bale.

          For “drought relief”, the government applied a dollar for dollar subsidy which applied to hay. The price of lucerne hay immediately rose to $6 a bale.

          No extra hay was produced until after the drought. Production was already maxed out.

          When the subsidy was terminated after the drought, the price returned to $3 a bale. Then hay producers who had taken out loans to produce hay for the $6 a bale market went broke.

          This is a good example of how subsidies work.

          90

      • #
        Hivemind

        It’s less a matter of whether Shortstuff will pay 1/6th of the cost of your batteries. It’s more a matter of whether he’ll pay 100% of the cost of the food wastage, idle factories, deaths in hospitals, etc.

        111

        • #
          clivehoskin

          Another brain fart by these”Cowardly,Lying,Do Nothing,Career Politicians”And just WHO is going to foot the bill for the disposal of said batteries after 7 years(if your lucky)?And just what happens when the SUN ain’t shinning,the WIND ain’t blowing and the BATTERIES dead?If Shorton Brains gets voted in next year,buy into BATTERY manufacturing.It’ll be a winner.

          51

    • #
      Rosco

      It won’t be electricity where this nonsense will bite. Electricity is about 1/3 of emissions so to achieve 45% reductions they have to tackle transport, agriculture, mining and manufacture as well and heavily as they only want 50% electricity emissions free.

      Agriculture, mining and manufacture are essential to the economy so private transport will be the only viable target.

      How do you stop people driving their cars so often ? Make it intolerably expensive.

      What price for petrol would do that ? $5.00 a litre would sting ! $10.00 a litre would destroy any market value for 90% of the current fleet.

      And the mechanics or anyone employed in what’s left of the motor vehicle industry etc better start retraining.

      All those extra baristas for coffee shops without reliable or affordable electricity and customers so poor they stay away in droves.

      What incredible stupidity !

      221

      • #
        AndyG55

        “What incredible stupidity !”

        And yet people STILL vote Labor/Green

        as you say

        What incredible stupidity !

        194

      • #
        William

        You really are being overly pessimistic about this.
        By the time it becomes an issue 99.9% of the population will either have frozen or starved to death. The remaining 0.1% will have slit their own wrists.

        133

      • #
        Bobl

        That’s OK, I’ll emigrate to live next door to Roy. We’ll maybe in a red low tax state

        40

    • #
      Environment Skeptic

      I have a cordless battery operated drill.
      Maybe we can have cordless washing mashines, and split system air cons…cordless toasters?
      Cordless battery technology has come a long way.

      00

  • #
    • #
      Curious George

      It is a brilliant plan. The End is nigh. Labour should not wait for elections. They should implement it immediately with all money coming from the Party accounts. Or are they losing the sense of urgency?

      190

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Well, if Victoria goes the way of Communism, they deserve to collapse :

        https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/state-election/victoria-state-election-2018-vote-now-daniel-andrews-to-lose/news-story/dd65e6627c7159db01ed5b5ec27158d0

        “State election now Andrews’ to lose
        Labor leads Daniel Andrews and the Labor Party are on course to be re-elected by ­Victorians on Saturday, after taking a ­commanding lead over the Coalition in an election-eve opinion poll.”

        Also, I was thinking about how Dr Valentina Zharkova, a mathemtician, was predicting a coming LIA based on sunspot activity. The CAGW cheer squad know this too, which is possibly why they are dynamiting and shutting down power stations. The Guardian is screaming about her predictions “its complete nonsesne” , so I think we can assume the good Dr is spot on.

        Then it occurred to me ( and lets assume this bit turns out to be true ) if, as I have suspected for a while – the extreme-green mob who hate humanity and appear to be having unhealthy influence on govts at all levels within Australia, want to see maximum death rates of as they term the Deplorables/”useless eaters” to protect their mythical “gaia”, then it makes perfect sense in PsyOp terms to create a myth of climate change and start shutting down power stations, so that when the Big Chill/LIA comes along ( predicted by Zharkova starting around 2020 and possibly running for 40 years and longer ) then what better way to make sure as many people as possible freeze to death, due to very limited-by-design limited access to electricity?

        It all makes sense if viewed through that lens.

        Now add in the fact the Chinese, who are no fools, have taken great strides in an alternate energy source ( https://phys.org/news/2018-11-chinese-fusion-tool-million-degrees.html ) might also know the LIA is coming, and need an alternative energy source just in case?

        Worth pondering on….

        114

        • #
          William

          There are lots of warm Pacific Islands that the Chinese leadership can move to once temperatures start to drop.

          102

        • #
          Environment Skeptic

          Valentina Zharkova and Martin Mlynczak
          And the confirming data from Nasa. Should generate some interesting further research and maybe more discoveries and astute observations.
          From: http://spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=28&month=09&year=2018
          “We see a cooling trend,” says Martin Mlynczak of NASA’s Langley Research Center. “High above Earth’s surface near the edge of space, our atmosphere is losing heat energy. If current trends continue, the upper atmosphere could soon set a Space Age record for cold.”

          60

          • #
            sophocles

            Don’t read too much into it: that’s for the Top of Atmosphere, (80 plus kilometers up!) not the Bottom of Atmosphere where we exist. It always cools there at the Sunspot Minimum. What it really means, is the end of Solar Cycle 24 (current solar cycle) is nigh and the start of cycle 25 is imminent. (That also doesn’t mean tonight, tomorrow, next week or next month but some time over the next two or three years or thereabouts.)

            Note: this cooling has little to do with climate, despite the Thermosphere Climate Index’ term.

            For climate, watch cloudiness figures which have a dependency on GCR (Galactic Cosmic Ray) intensity, and Sea Temps. GCRs now are the highest they’ve ever been measured during the Space Age.

            It is research time, though, for effects on the magnetosphere, the thermosphere (ionosphere and exosphere) while they’re not being blasted by the sun. There’s a lot to be learned up there, the atmospheric electric currents being just one item.

            40

            • #
              Environment Skeptic

              It has to do with a cyclical variation in output/other and a predicted solar minimum, similar to the solar minimum that is associated with witch burning across europe. A natural cycle, aspects of which that were predicted by the highly esteemed, talented, and highly qualified, Valentina Zharkova.

              10

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                If it turns cold, like it did in the middle ages, historians predict climate deniers will be burnt in an oxygen starved atmosphere to stop CO2 emissions

                00

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                If it were not for deniers, climate would go back to normal and therefore……she’s a witch!!
                But how do you know she is a witch?
                MOnty python solves this seemingly perplexing problem by the use of a duck.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

                00

      • #
        clivehoskin

        “Socialism only works until you run out of OTHER peoples money.”

        31

  • #
    AndyG55

    And yes, I think Bill Shorten’s plans are a disaster for Australia.

    Climate.. not changing much, if at all.

    No measured evidence that atmospheric CO2 causes warming

    The only slight warming in the last 40 years has been from two El Ninos ocean releases.

    A fraction of a degree, maybe, of beneficial natural warming

    An enhanced biosphere.

    Surely, there must be something REAL to hang this CLIMATE FARCE on ?

    I ask a simple question…

    In what way has the climate change in the last 40 years that can be scientifically attributed to human released CO2? (and no, “scientifically” does not mean model based)

    456

  • #
    A C Osborn

    NO Government does “Due Dilligence” before spending billions of Tax payers money, because they don’t care if it wasted or not.

    370

    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      They don’t care, and they’re not held accountable for wasting government money.

      I don’t understand how business is held to account, thieves are held to account, but government take money from us at the point of a gun and waste it on whatever, with not so much as a thank you.

      130

  • #
    Pauly

    I’d support Bill, as long as the subsidy was used for wholly Australian produced batteries.

    No possibility of any impact on climate from this policy, but at least the money could be used by Australian industry.

    165

    • #
      ivan

      Sorry, but I must ask what Australian industry? If you get to the stage of requiring batteries then you have no industry.

      There is a good article regarding batteries in the renewable equation at https://papundits.wordpress.com/2018/11/18/batteries-not-included-in-renewable-fantasy-plans/

      210

      • #
        theRealUniverse

        http://www.cfact.org/2018/10/11/un-greens-endorse-gigantic-global-use-of-chemical-energy/
        Another great rubbishing of ‘un-renewables’.

        If all the wasted money was put into say Thorium or Fusion power then we might make some progress on other forms of power generation.

        Batteries for nation storage isnt an option at todays technology or even well into the future. The numbers are absurd, Storing in the order of 1 TWh of battery power is a non starter.
        https://papundits.wordpress.com/2018/11/18/batteries-not-included-in-renewable-fantasy-plans/
        “So for 100% national renewables we might need over one million MW of batteries with 120 million MWh of generating capacity.”

        100

        • #
          Kneel

          “If all the wasted money was put into say Thorium or Fusion power…”

          We could fund Bussard’s EMCC Polywell project, as well as maybe 3 similar projects for less than US$1B. There are at least 3 projects that I am aware of that would likely be able to know for sure if their methods work at industrial scale for typically US$200-300M.
          A once off, I might add, not per annum, just once.
          Only one needs to pay off.
          These are serious, careful research teams who have created small and not quite as small model reactors that appear to show the changes expected with scaling to a larger size, they just don’t have the cash to build a full size test unit.

          AU$6B per anum is raped from our wallets and the above – which if successful would “solve” any issues of CO2 AND people wanting oil/coil/gas for energy ANYWAY – is “too risky”? If not us, then who will find the answer you seek – non-fossil based, non-radioactive, industrial grade, on-demand power running on abundant, safe, wide spread materials that produces no toxic or radioactive waste. All ticked. For less than the price of a single F35, there’s a good chance we could save the world AND change history – literally.

          Sigh.

          30

          • #
            Environment Skeptic

            Good storage would help a lot.
            The most promising research and development is in carbon based battery storage. IMO (In my opinion)
            Skeleton Ultra capacitors for example and maybe even Robert Murray Smith and his own R&D using carbon to store power.
            Carbon batteries are the future in storage.

            Skeleton Ultra Capacitors | Fully Charged https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2Eo6wl5r0
            We visit Skeleton Technologies in Tallinn, Estonia to find out how these remarkable products are made and what they do. Curved …

            20

          • #
            sophocles

            Kneel:
            Can you post some links to these projects, please? Enquiring minds and all that sort of stuff :-)
            Thanks.

            10

            • #
              Environment Skeptic

              ……….maybe something about making batteries using coal nano-particles?

              00

              • #
                Environment Skeptic

                There will be a huge reserve of coal that cannot be burnt after ‘the great coal fired power station extinction’, so perhaps coal could be used to make the best Carbon batteries in the cosmos. …Setting an example for terrestrial beings on other planets or moons in our diverse galaxy and beyond.

                10

        • #
          sophocles

          Batteries for nation storage isnt an option at todays technology or even well into the future. The numbers are absurd, Storing in the order of 1 TWh of battery power is a non starter.

          Quite right. They only thing they really do well is burn. Toxically.

          [ https://www.garda.com/crisis24/news-alerts/77816/belgium-battery-fire-and-toxic-smoke-in-drogenbos-november-11 ]

          20

    • #
      Jonesy

      A disaster says energy Bill. Proposing the NRG, showing exactly where Malcolm’s moral compass was set…is still a disaster no matter who proposes it. I cannot believe how galaticly stupid they have to be to believe such tripe.

      Take the issue of refining rare earths to make batteries..where does the power come cro6m to run the mills and refinery? Pixie dust? 50% renewables will not power industry. This disconnect between what does happen to wishing what will happen will kill our nation!

      240

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Assume you were on a ship deep out in the ocean, and you discovered the captian, who held corrosive beliefs, had sabotaged the ship……

        What do you think the outcome should be? Bligh comes to mind…..

        60

    • #
      RickWill

      Batteries made in Australia would be 3X the price of those imported from China. China are using coal to power their industries at a fraction of the cost that Australian businesses pay for electric power polluted by the multiple intermittent sources connected to the grid.

      141

    • #
      clivehoskin

      Since”Global Warming is a scam(Ottmar Edenhoffer, one of the co-chairs of the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), said in an interview with German NZZ Online,“One must say clearly that we redistribute defacto the world’s wealth by climate policy. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy.”)Then why would we need batteries in the first place?Old”King Coal”is KING.And until WE come up with a VIABLE alternative,we still have about 400 years to come up with another alternative.And batteries,windmills and solar are not it…

      30

  • #
    Kinky Keith

    LiPos?

    This is going to every exciting.

    Everyone get to have a fizz bomb in their garage.

    150

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Quick question, how do these batteries react to intense heat in a house or bush fire?

      200

      • #
        Chad

        Very similar to a tank full of fuel in the carparked in the garage..
        Except the fuel contains much more “energy” .

        93

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/years-to-understand-fire-risk-of-solar-power-systems/news-story/bcb237fc4e13e3cf37e56cadfaf44430

          “Victoria’s Metropolitan Fire Brigade has responded to more than 40 fires caused by home solar power systems in the past five years and warned that it would take years to understand the fire risk posed by lithium ion battery storage.

          The MFB said the solar installations were vulnerable to faults across their systems, including isolation switches, inverters and installed wiring, and from deteriorating components.
          The alarming figures come as the solar battery storage industry pushes to kill new regulations that would force homeowners to build a separate “fire bunker” housing for battery installations.

          Under draft rules released by Standards Australia, lithium ion batteries are classed as “Fire Class 1” and would not be allowed inside or within 1m of a domestic dwelling. The industry will have until August 15 to respond to the draft regulations.”

          120

          • #
            Bulldust

            Exactly this … a couple house fires sparked by batteries and it’s pink batts all over again. As one article read “… from pink batts to pink batteries …” These near pointless virtue signalling gestures from Labor are an embarrassment to anyone with working brain cells.

            122

        • #
          Kinky Keith

          You put water on the fuel: nothing happens.

          You put water on a ruptured LiPo.

          Fizzzzzzz.

          100

    • #
      theRealUniverse

      Has Shorten even considered the ‘end of life’ of these things and the disposal, let alone the chemicals in the things. So how much of the 15bn will be used in the disposal? after they fail after let say…5-8 years.

      120

    • #
      RickWill

      LiPoly batteries have much higher power density than the LiFePO4 technology used in household battery packs. The latter are tested to high level of overcharge and high discharge rate to test the case integrity.

      I have seen the results of two LiFePO4 self-discharge events and on both occurrences the plastic case remained intact although they were grossly swollen.

      I do not know the current situation with the new standard on battery installations but the first pass required battery banks to be installed outdoors.

      I consider any large battery a greater fire fighting hazard than a liquid fuel fire. A fuel fire requires oxygen to release energy. A battery can release energy without any other agent. In fact a LiPply battery will react with water and burn.

      About a decade ago I was making an adapter plug for a 5Ah 6S LiPoly battery and accidentally shorted the wires on the adapter with it still in the battery plug. The wires heated so quickly that they caused blisters before I could break the circuit. The insulation was burnt and I was lucky my adapter wire was smaller section than the leads to the battery plug leaving the battery wires intact. That battery still holds its rated capacity after 11 years of occasional use.

      70

    • #
      theRealUniverse

      “Everyone get to have a fizz bomb in their garage.” Shorting out 100kWh battery boggles the mind a bit.

      80

      • #
        Chad

        Lipo batteries have been in every laptop computer and mobile phone since 1990.
        Recently they have become the defacto power source for cordless tools and domestic vacumes.
        They can burn violently and evev act like flaming motar bombs once overheated.
        BUT…most lipo battery fires are the result of human error not inherent faults or spontaneous combustion.

        31

      • #
        sophocles

        It boggled the Belgians’ minds:

        and darkened the skies

        20

  • #
    King Geo

    Shorten’s A$15 billion master plan is a weapon of “mass destruction”. The Oz Economy will implode e.g. subsidize some consumers with Tesla Home Batteries, send kids to pre-school as 3 year olds, promise they will complete year 12 and attend university – to voters in 2019 this will seem like “Utopia”. But this is shaping up as a classic case of “Caveat Emptor” (buyer beware). Put simply if the Shorten Govt wins office in 2019 this country is doomed – well at least for 3 years. True to form the ALP will “pork barrel” the un-weary with these Utopian Policies but we all know they will neglect entities who create the real jobs – industry – so the 10′s of 1000′s of Uni Graduates every year will have zilch jobs to apply for. “Socialism” will destroy their dreams. Things will be so bad that they will even have to queue up for a job at Maccas. They won’t be “Lovin It” (Macccas long standing slogan being – “I’m Lovin’ It”). Oz under Shorten will be going on an “EU deja vu” type journey – resulting in “sky high youth unemployment rates” testing the 50% mark as is currently the case in EU member nations like Greece, Spain & Italy. Even the EU strong member nation France currently has a 20% youth unemployment rate. And they have mainly nuclear power – god help the others depending on RE’s.

    Au revoir Oz (if you vote in the Shorten Govt in 2019)

    403

    • #
      Gerry, England

      France’s total unemployment rate has not been below 8% in living memory on top of the youth figure. And don’t forget that Macron is getting rid of the nuclear unless the people storm the Palace of Versailles and get rid of him first.

      220

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      The Labor battery scheme is supposed to be a solution to the “duck back effect” where lots of household solar forces conventional generators out of the market, and unable to ramp up generation fast enough when the sun sets and the peak demand occurs.
      If you look at the costs it becomes obvious where your electricity bills are going.
      $14,000 for an installed battery providing 6kWh per day (365 days a year) means that to payback the installation over 10 years electricity has to be 64¢ per kWh. Should you think that 333 days a year will be suitably sunny to charge the battery, then electricity needs to rise to 70¢ per kWh.

      120

      • #
        Bobl

        But at 30c per kWh you can economically replace grid electricity with a solar diesel hybrid system, with minimal battery storage say two traction batteries for under 20k.

        30

  • #
    Peter B

    Green subsidies; batteries, pink bats and carbon taxes etc, are the greatest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich since the Sherrif of Nottingham rode for Prince John!

    373

  • #
    pat

    as posted on “Weekend Unthreaded”, the Coalition is no better!

    22 Nov: ABC: Labor’s plan to introduce battery subsidies could ‘tip the market’ for household batteries
    By Nick Harmsen

    Releasing its energy policy on Thursday, the federal Labor Party adopted a similar policy to South Australia’s Liberal Government, promising subsidies of up to $2,000 for households earning less than $180,000 a year to install battery systems…

    Premier Steven Marshall agreed that household batteries were the way of the future and said the state needed to have household battery storage.
    But he said the policy announced by the federal Labor Party today was only a “watered-down” version of what was already available in South Australia.
    “I think imitation is the greatest form of flattery,” he said.
    “I think it’s a slightly watered-down scheme from what we’re offering here in South Australia … it’s going to taken Bill Shorten several years to implement.
    “We’ve got a household subsidy of up to $6,000 and it’s available right now.”…

    The subsidy program in South Australia has already received praise, with homeowner Susan Packer delighted with the Sonnen battery installed at her home last week…
    “Battery capacity is 100 per cent so even on a day like today — where we’ve had intermittent rain and cloud — we still generated enough power to be stored in the battery.”
    Ms Packer said she believed if people could afford getting the batteries installed, it would definitely be beneficial for households in the long run.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-22/labor-policy-could-tip-the-market-for-household-batteries/10545102

    80

  • #
    Geoffrey Williams

    Unfortunately for us the Australian public love this climate hysteria. Most of them are completely sold on global warming and believe in some kind of looming end of world disaster.
    Well if that’s what they want then let them have it.
    I am fed up trying to rationalize or explain what I perceive as the truth; climate change has always occurred, current temperature rises are exaggerated and the science of climate change has been corrupted,and not to mention the utter futility of so called renewables energy. Well let them take our economy and our way of life and destroy it.
    It’s already happening. . .
    GeoffW

    183

    • #
      Robdel

      The sooner we get the Shorten catastrophe with concomitant blackouts, the quicker will the madness end. So I say vote Labor/Greens to kill their fantasy world and bring an end to those lefty parties for a good while.

      90

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        A ( bike ) metaphor for the Victorianstan economy as it meets the reality of energy production :

        In keeping with the ( coming ) Mad Max theme for Victoriastan :

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADwK698IQA

        50

      • #
        Serp

        The madness will not end when blackouts become commonplace; simply Australians will adjust to their changed circumstances by lowering their expectations and the profits will continue to be harvested by the vested interests.

        Only when the renewable installations come up for countrywide replacement in ten to fifteen years will the crunch arise as the owners turn on full mendicant mode and seek funding to finance the refit.

        Lord knows what form of government we’ll have by then.

        40

      • #
        King Geo

        Robdel – I agree with you.

        Let the Shorten Govt destroy the Oz Economy – then his Govt gets tossed out in 2022 after bringing Oz to its knees.

        NO PAIN NO GAIN!!!!

        10

  • #
    cedarhill

    If the species avoids Darwinian extinction, future historians will refer to this as De Insania Aevum.

    120

  • #
    • #

      Okay then Phil, explain to all of us how this battery system works when attached to rooftop solar installations, (and Phil just the basics here will do) the costs, who gets them, who pays for them, who REALLY pays for them, who installs them, where the batteries come from, how long the batteries last, who disposes of them, who pays for the replacement cost.

      Or is all this just political for you. eh, no real need to know how it all works.

      Just another Labor rort.

      Tony.

      575

      • #
        Phillthegeek

        Or is all this just political for you.

        Mainly political interest. Crush the RWFW’s like bugs.

        837

        • #
          yarpos

          Nice sidestep of a meaningful answer, just the usual emotive responses.

          213

        • #

          I hope everyone here read Phil’s response very carefully.

          It’s the most perfect response you could expect.

          1. It highlights their complete lack of any knowledge when it comes to something like this.

          2. From that, it highlights their complete lack of will to even go and attempt to find out some knowledge when it comes to something like this.

          3. From that, it highlights their self doubt, that if they do go looking for some knowledge on something like this, and they find they have been wrong, mislead, and conned, it would sorely affect their belief structures.

          No, it’s easier to just flat out believe verbatim what their political string pullers tell them to believe, and that way, when it is finally proved conclusively that they have been wrong, mislead, and conned, it’s, well, just not their fault.

          Thanks Phil. You’ve done us all a favour here.

          Tony.

          354

          • #

            Oh and Phil, as to the RWFW, if you were to look in the mirror, you’d see the mirror image, only in reverse of that RWFW, a LWFW.

            Tony.

            304

            • #
              TedM

              Makes you wonder if any of the alp/greens/philthegeeks got through basic high school physics and or maths.

              184

            • #
              King Geo

              The banter between Tony (100% correct) & Geek (100% incorrect) is interesting – such a stark contrast between what is real & unreal.

              Tony says “Oh and Phil, as to the RWFW, if you were to look in the mirror, you’d see the mirror image, only in reverse of that RWFW, a LWFW”.

              Like an episode from “Black Mirror” - I have watched all 4 Seasons on Netflix – brilliant Series.

              Nothing is what it seems in “Black Mirror” – clearly aligned with the “Geeks” of this World.

              51

          • #
            philthegeek

            Tony, the reason i focus on the politics here, rather than the science is that i have been down that rabbit hole before.

            The amusing thing here is the religious level of fanaticism and instinctive defense of the groupthink that goes on. There is no evidence presentable that the denizens here will not reject with prejudice.

            Take the truly ridiculous proposition pushed so often here (and by some of the more idiotic pollies like Craig Kelly) that its all a conspiracy involving thousands of scientists. Silliness.. but is the background level belief here.

            Or, that because we have coal tech in place we MUST always have it in place. The world moves on people as circumstances change. You want the world to move your way, get the politics (the art of the possible) right or accept self inflicted irrelevance.

            This site is a good one for observing the psychopathology of the out there right wingers and their fellow travelers being expressed. Its known as one of the places they come to have their confirmation bias fed, and indulge in exactly the kind of behavior that they spend a lot of time criticising “lefties” for.

            And..although its a small but entertaining echo chamber, its good for a laff, actually does have the occasional link or reference worth reading…. and i’m still not totally convinced its not an undercover satire site. :)

            XX

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            • #

              Or, that because we have coal tech in place we MUST always have it in place.

              And therein lies the rub.

              Had you actually read up and found out for yourself, as I suggested, you’d find that there is NOTHING that can replace coal fired power on the scale required, in fact on any scale.

              Until you have that, then coal fired power will be all there is. Even the politicians on your side of the fence know that, and know it without a fraction of a doubt, they just cannot close those coal fired power plants down, and the minute they do with nothing in place, they know that’s the end of them ….. politically. They just say the words you want to hear from them, but trust me, they know.

              So it all actually is politics.

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            • #
              Bobl

              My god you have been sipping the kool-aid. The problem here is that many or most participants are centre left, including Jo herself who used to be a green.

              What you have here is largely a group of university graduates from science and engineering (left and right politically) that have done the math for themselves. With you it’s all political and seeming, for us it’s just math

              Your beloved global warming as the IPCC postulate it is IMPOSSIBLE because it violates energy conservation. Even the energy balance thesis omits significant sources and sinks and is junk.

              This science is junk which doesn’t stand up to simple mathematical tests and is internally inconsistent. The hypothesis underlying AGW *IS* wrong, there is no doubt.

              A few simple math equations can prove that, but you don’t care about that, you just want to “crush the right” the truth be damned.

              I don’t see the point of living if you aren’t prepared to learn, it must be such a bare pointless existence.

              141

            • #
              clivehoskin

              Phil, just take a look at Sth Australia.If it wasn’t for Victoria with help from Tassie,There would be a million or so,people hunting for their”Cowardly,Lying,Do Nothing,Career Politicians”who have caused the”Black outs”in that state.We rejected”Electric cars”(along with the Stanley Steamer)a hundred years ago and windmills we ditched(apart from using them to pump water to stock)about 60 years ago.We found them not fit for anything else.And you people call them NEW TECHNOLOGY?REALLY?

              11

      • #
        Phillthegeek

        And Tony, if you are that enthused about Coal, move to China, take deep breaths.

        1054

        • #
          AndyG55

          The best coal is HERE !!

          Coal has run this country for many decades, and will continue to do so.

          … please stop breathing-in if you are scared of coal.

          Please disconnect from everything requiring fossil fuels to power, make or transport.

          Show that you REALLY “BELIEVE™” in this anti-CO2 idiocy.

          405

          • #
            Peter Fitzroy

            it is also responsible for premature deaths around Newcastle. Are you happy to kill people to get your cheap power?

            640

            • #
              Dennis

              That claim has not been peer reviewed and is rejected by many who have commented after reading the Doctor’s paper.

              However, maybe you can explain why the Environmental Protection Agency has allowed coal burning if your green friends are right? Yes I am aware that they have demanded EPA action based on the opinion paper yet to be reviewed.

              This reminds me of other green scare campaigns, like when they could not differentiate between company revenue and profit.

              265

              • #
                AndyG55

                And WHY do all greenies and anti-CO2 sympathisers continue to use that RELIABLE, coal fired power.

                If they REALLY “believed™”, despite zero evidence that atmospheric CO2 caused warming, and they were REALLY worried by it, they would renounce all products made, transported etc using fossil fuels.

                But they don’t.

                They still want all the benefits of RELIABLE electricity, just want to WHINGE about it.

                286

            • #
              AndyG55

              “it is also responsible for premature deaths around Newcastle”

              NOPE, Its not.

              MANY people would die without that CHEAP RELIABLE POWER.

              Society would collapse without it.

              Is that what YOU want . !!

              Why are YOU still using that coal powered electricity, HYPOCRITE !!

              256

            • #
              Kinky Keith

              Diabetes 11 is caused by coal fired power generators?

              Out of respect for all of the mothers who didn’t drink alcohol during their pregnancy and who didn’t go into pregnancy massively overweight, I’ll refrain from commenting on his other findings.

              That “study” defines the Global Warming Movement.

              Paradoxically the study fails the victims portrayed because it misinforms them of the true cause of their misfortune.

              They are apparently seen by the “doctor” as not worth his time and effort in preventing recurrence.

              They are victims twice over.

              KK

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            • #
              jpm

              PF How about some references about these deaths, something that we can read and discuss. I suppose it is just conjecture as is the rest of the AGW nonsense.
              You can find data from the air monitoring stations on the net and if you bother to look at them you will find that the air in our major cities is much worse that that down wind of the coal-fired power plants, mainly because of diesels. I have looked and can assure you that is the case. Of course that would involve some effort on your part, wouldn’t it?
              John

              110

            • #
              Bobl

              Rubbish it’s responsible for an increase in the average life expectancy from around 40 years to almost 80 years in less than 2 centuries. Coal gives us heat, light, sealed houses , underground sewerage, medicine , refrigeration, safe hygienic cooking, hot sterile water, water reticulation that takes what used to be short brutal lives and turns them in to long cushy ones.

              So I call foul on your ridiculously narrow citation that ignores all the benefits and counts only the minor, and highly speculative costs.

              141

        • #
          toorightmate

          Philthegeek,
          YOU move to China and give us all a bit of a break.
          China is making enormous leaps with renewables, just ask the Greens.
          The main PARTIULATE pollution problem in China is from vehicles, not coal fired power stations AND the new coal-fired power stations have extremely clean gas streams.

          256

        • #
          Dennis

          Why has the Environmental Protection Agency ignored the problem you commented on?

          All that water vapour emissions from the cooling towers?

          You can’t see the odourless and invisible carbon dioxide emissions.

          Particulates? Have you not toured a coal fired power station? Many devices, even expanded stainless steel baffles protecting boiler tubes from grit erosion, deflecting air flow and causing particles to fall and be collected. A simple solution based on jet aircraft engine exhaust deflectors used at some international airports. But many more measures.

          And remembering the earlier generation city suburban based coal fired power stations close in the 1970s from memory, and new cleaner technology power stations constructed in the countryside close to coal mines. Which is why some are now close to fifty years of reliable operation. But that alright, well maintained they could continue to eighty years or longer. Unless the owners decided that better technology was available and more cost effective for shareholders return on investment.

          153

        • #
          Kneel

          “if you are that enthused about Coal, move to China, take deep breaths.”

          Interesting example.
          Communism created extremely dirty energy sources in abundance. They they cracked the gates to the great evil of capitalism. After even more pollution using the old ways, the people started getting richer and started complaining about the pollution. They’re definately moving to fix it.
          So what is forcing the Chinese government to curb pollution is: capitalism and it’s result – wealth.
          Therefore, to fix the CO2 issue, we should force people to pay more for energy, thereby reducing their wealth.
          What is wrong with this picture?

          80

        • #
          Geoffrey Williams

          Phill, people of your ilk will end up wandering around the outbacks of Aus looking for spare batteries!!
          My dear chap you haven’t a clue about energy matters.
          GeoffW

          71

        • #
          el gordo

          Phil you could do some research on the Clean Air Act in Britain and why coal use at grass roots level was fazed out, they are at that point in China.

          https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/18/health/china-smog-winter-fuel-pollution-beijing-intl/index.html

          20

      • #

        [sarc]Details! Mere details! This will all be sorted out after Labor wins the election. Just like the NBN, Pink Batts, the Education Revolution, Desal plants etc.[/sarc]

        216

        • #
          Kinky Keith

          Don’t laugh.

          A lot of Laba supporters were rewarded and got rich through the Desal Plants.

          Money spent on nominal green schemes is never “wasted”, it is always appreciated by someone.

          KK

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      • #

        One thing you can guarantee, just like with the first home buyers grant, the cost of these batteries will go up by $2000, and so will the cost of installation.

        200

        • #
          Dennis

          And battered utes with foreign workers will again be sighted on the streets.

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          • #

            Like those Swedish backpackers that kept coming to our place trying to flog solar panels. When I pointed to the 100′ gum trees lining the nature strip of the north-facing front of our house and advised them that if they could get the council to at least trim the tops of the trees so that the winter sun hit our roof, I’d consider solar panels. With a maximum efficiency of maybe 20% most of the year, what was the point of solar panels?

            160

    • #
      Gordon

      I read the article and there is nothing in it that explains any of the costs involved or the technology or how this is all supposed to work. Batteries?!? Seriously?

      254

      • #
        Phillthegeek

        nothing in it that explains any of the costs involved or the technology

        That would be because the article is about the politics that the denialati have put so much effort into dealing themselves out of by being politically inept numpties.

        944

        • #
          AndyG55

          AGW is ONLY about politics, not about reality.

          Seems you are well aware of that fact.

          Have you found any empirical evidence that atmospheric CO2 causes warming, phloop?

          Or are you still just the same yappy, EMPTY, scientifically-irrelevant AGW apologist you have always been.?

          316

        • #
          Greg Cavanagh

          Politics doesn’t pay the food bills.
          Your explanation falls flat, as does your reply to Tony.

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          • #
            AndyG55

            “Your explanation falls flat”

            Its called a “Faceplant”

            Pretty sure he does it intentionally… just to get the attention.

            136

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          Phil, havent you got some meaningless “smash the ” rally to go to?

          Leave science to people who actually know something about it.

          Run along now..

          PS – Up the Workers……..

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        • #
          TedM

          Still side stepping the question Geeko. Why, because you don’t have one. I would suggest absolutely no interest in technical matters.

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        • #
          TedM

          Your fourth post geeko and still no content.

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        • #
          clivehoskin

          In Nov. 2010, Ottmar Edenhoffer, one of the co-chairs of the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), said in an interview with German NZZ Online,“One must say clearly that we redistribute defacto the world’s wealth by climate policy. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy.”

          10

      • #

        That’s the Guardian, Gordon. It’s only meant to be read by peevish old ladies in sandshoes and blokes who wear scarves in summer.

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        • #
          Annie

          ‘Some’peevish old ladies if you please Moso! ;) I’m a grumpy old woman who despises the offerings of the Grauniad.

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          • #

            I was thinking of the type who wears Dunlop Vollies to demonstrations against stickers on apples. They’re often the widows of scarf-in-summer Grauniad readers who just couldn’t make it through the 2013 heatwave.

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          • #
            OriginalSteve

            The Guardian is quite useful – it provides valuable galah cage lining at a reasonable price…..

            The cage occupants like it too…although hearing them repeat the same stuff over and over again is annoying, but Ive been told the cage occupants have the qualities to become valuable SJWs and solid upstanding Leftists…..

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          • #
            yarpos

            My wife has a Grumpy Old Woman T shirt (and no, I didnt buy it)

            40

    • #
      el gordo

      Phil I’m happy that the ALP is running with this in a big way, because it offers the electorate the opportunity to consider the options. You know, sorting the wheat from the chaff.

      The economy is doing well and unemployment low, along with inflation, so we have a real opportunity to debate whether CO2 actually causes gorebull worming.

      80

  • #
    pat

    another costly CAGW idea!

    22 Nov: Guardian: Swap gas boilers for hydrogen or miss emission targets, UK told
    Households need electric and hydrogen hybrid boilers sooner rather than later, climate advisers warn
    by Adam Vaughan
    Millions of gas boilers will need to be replaced with hydrogen alternatives and coupled with electric heating devices if Britain is to hit its carbon targets at the lowest cost, according to the government’s climate advisers.
    In a report on the role hydrogen could play in the energy system, the Committee on Climate Change (CCC) spelt out the ***huge but necessary cost the country faces to switch to green heating.
    The cheapest scenario, it said, is a mix of electrifying heating and fitting hydrogen boilers, and will cost the UK £28bn a year, or 0.7% of GDP, by 2050…

    Chris Stark, the chief executive of the CCC, said the committee had previously been a “bit suspicious” of heat pumps but was now confident enough to recommend their rollout as a hybrid heating measure running alongside gas boilers, before a later move to hydrogen too…

    But the CCC said producing hydrogen in a low-carbon way would be a big challenge.
    Today the vast majority is made from natural gas and is high carbon, but in the future that production would need to involve carbon capture and storage. Producing the hydrogen in bulk using renewable electricity generation and electrolysis was considered “unnecessarily expensive”, said the CCC.
    It added that evidence showed the use of hydrogen would be increasingly important to cut carbon emissions from industrial processes, such as in furnaces and kilns.
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/22/uk-hydrogen-heating-2050-emissions-targets-gas-boilers-electric-climate-change

    Guardian might be jumping the gun!

    22 Nov: BusinessGreen: Madeleine Cuff: Committee on Climate Change: The UK needs a plan for hydrogen
    As the Committee on Climate Change (CCC), the government’s official climate advisors, point out today, hydrogen is a “credible” low or even zero carbon energy source for the UK. It could replace natural gas in parts of the energy system, power heavy goods vehicles, cars and ships over long distances, and fuel heavy industry with zero emissions.

    So what’s the catch? According to the CCC, there’s currently no plan to systematically bring the costs of hydrogen technologies down and scale infrastructure across the country. That plan needs to be put in place now, say the government advisors, if we are to have the option of developing hydrogen technology to scale through the 2020s at an affordable cost.

    It’s the age old chicken-and-egg dilemma. What comes first? Carmakers won’t manufacture hydrogen cars without hydrogen fuel stations for their customers to use. Energy suppliers won’t install hydrogen-based heat networks without a reliable fuel supply. Industries won’t invest in a hydrogen-friendly production line without the fuel source to run it.
    But hydrogen producers won’t invest in delivering the fuel at scale without a signal the market demand is ready and waiting for its grand commercial entrance…

    “There isn’t a market for hydrogen at the moment – we haven’t got the supply and we haven’t got the demand,” admits Chris Stark, CEO of the CCC. “So it’s been difficult to see a way through where we are today to where we need to get to by 2050.”…READ ON
    https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news-analysis/3066762/committee-on-climate-change-the-uk-needs-a-plan-for-hydrogen

    50

    • #
      ivan

      Have the CCC calculated how many houses and tower blocks destroyed they will consider acceptable? Hydrogen is much more explosive in small quantities than natural shale gas.

      130

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Hydrogen from ammonia could work….

        50

        • #
          Bobl

          Yes, but rather than using a nitrogen hydride wouldn’t a carbon hydride such as CH4 be just as good?

          I went down this road once, carbon hydrides have significant benefits over nitrogen ones, particularly that Carbon hydrides form long chain molecules.

          50

    • #
      Another Ian

      As Willis E put it

      “The major problem with hydrogen is that it is pre-burnt. You can’t just open up a hydrogen mine”

      111

  • #
    pat

    Shorten announced his policies at BNEF, so probably it’s worth noting:

    21 Nov: Bloomberg: Batteries, Electric Vehicles, Demand Response and Interconnection with Nordic Hydro Will Make U.K. and German Power Systems Cheaper and Cleaner
    London and Berlin, November 21, 2018 – Flexible energy options, such as energy storage, smart-charging electric vehicles, demand response and interconnectors, are needed to ensure that the energy transition proceeds on an optimal path. Our expensive power system would otherwise be reliant on fossil-fueled backup and installing excess wind and solar capacity…

    The four types of flexibility mentioned above can accelerate the transition to a cleaner power system and ultimately enable the efficient integration of 80% or more renewable energy by 2040, according to two new reports published today by BloombergNEF (BNEF) in partnership with Eaton and ***Statkraft…

    ◾In Germany, adding flexibility supports coal through 2030, even as renewables grow to dominate the market. This counterintuitive finding is not due to a problem with batteries, EVs, demand response or interconnectors – cheap coal is the culprit. Flexible technologies are important because they can integrate inflexible generation – and in Germany’s case, its inexpensive lignite plants also benefit. To decarbonize, Germany needs to address existing coal generation while investing in renewables, flexibility and interconnection…

    “For ***Statkraft, as the largest generator of renewable energy in Europe, it is interesting to see that Nordic hydropower reservoirs can play an important role for decarbonization of the European power systems, together with other flexibility solutions. This is consistent with our own analyses – confirming that a global renewables share of 70 percent is possible by 2040 if we let modern solutions for flexibility and market design allow cheap renewables to replace more expensive fossil solutions,” said Henrik Sætness, SVP strategy and analyses at Statkraft…

    The complete reports can be downloaded here (LINK).
    https://about.bnef.com/blog/batteries-electric-vehicles-demand-response-and-interconnection-with-nordic-hydro-will-make-u-k-and-german-power-systems-cheaper-and-cleaner/?sf95350151=1

    30

    • #
      Dennis

      The unreliable energy mob never explain that wind and solar is a small segment of electricity world wide.

      110

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        Nor do they ever calculate how much they want and how much is available. e.g. Norway has drier years when it has to limit the amount of hydro exported.

        90

  • #

    Bills state of self discharge.
    “The self-discharge of all battery chemistries increases at higher temperature, and the rate typically doubles with every 10°C (18°F). A noticeable energy loss occurs if a battery is left in a hot vehicle. High cycle count and aging also increase self-discharge of all systems. ”
    https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge

    130

  • #

    From Graham Lloyd:

    “The federal opposition’s proposal to offer $2000 for home battery installations from 2020 will add to consumer interest at a time when industry estimates have been cooling on the long-term outlook for batteries in the home.

    Industry experts said consumers were still looking at a $12,000 investment for a system that would supply between one-third and two-fifths of an average household requirement.

    The payback at current prices was between 10 and 13 years, longer than the warranty periods offered on the battery units.”

    The $2k rebate is a subsidy to wealthier households that would install a battery anyway, to appear cool.

    The payback period is 10 years, longer than the warranty, and the cost is still $10k after the rebate, so very few lower income households are going take this up. It’s a joke.

    The Labor Party does not champion the working class any more. It is the party of the rich and the virtue signalers, and they hate deplorables. This rebate transfers money from the working class to Labor’s new supporters.

    536

    • #
      yarpos

      I would love to see some of these payback calculations/guesstimates the industry makes.

      How they model the interaction of battery charging vs fit vs paying for power and what assumptions they make would be illuminating. I suspect they are very idealistic scenarios, especially when they are talking about adding batteries to solar systems that may or may not have been installed with anythought of batteries being added.

      80

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        Industry calculations are limited to “how much can we get out of this scheme?”.

        See comment 7.2 for my limited calculation. I should have added another $250 per year for the cost of ‘peaker gas plants’ to cover the 32 days without suitable amounts of sunlight. (That’s assuming the “peakers” aren’t “porkers” and charge a lot more).

        100

        • #
          Chris from Geelong

          From Catallaxy files website

          In the meantime look for Pink Batts on Steroids as their latest policy.

          A Shorten government would subsidise batteries for 100,000 homes — paying $2000 to eligible families — and set a goal of installing them in a million households within six years as a means of reaching its 50 per cent renewable energy target by 2030.

          So some quick back of the envelope calculations – there are about 250 working days in a year, so 6 years makes 1,500 working days. One million households in 1,500 working days equals 666.67 households per day. (I’m sure the sign of the beast number is a pure coincidence.)

          93

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            I wonder how many extra shifts the firies will have to pull to deal with the extra risk?

            Has anyone calculated the rate of energy release of a 10 KWh wall battery if it went bang?

            93

            • #
              Greebo

              Has anyone calculated the rate of energy release of a 10 KWh wall battery if it went bang?

              Good question. The people at Rimac might know. The 90 KWh battery in their Concept One car burned for FIVE DAYS after the Hamster crashed it. A firefighter’s nightmare.

              30

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/

            Sci Rep. 2017; 7: 10018.

            Published online 2017 Aug 30. doi: [10.1038/s41598-017-09784-z]

            PMCID: PMC5577247
            PMID: 28855553

            Toxic fluoride gas emissions from lithium-ion battery fires

            Fredrik Larsson,1,2 Petra Andersson,2 Per Blomqvist,2 and Bengt-Erik Mellander1
            Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer

            Abstract

            Lithium-ion battery fires generate intense heat and considerable amounts of gas and smoke. Although the emission of toxic gases can be a larger threat than the heat, the knowledge of such emissions is limited. This paper presents quantitative measurements of heat release and fluoride gas emissions during battery fires for seven different types of commercial lithium-ion batteries.

            The results have been validated using two independent measurement techniques and show that large amounts of hydrogen fluoride (HF) may be generated, ranging between 20 and 200 mg/Wh of nominal battery energy capacity. In addition, 15–22 mg/Wh of another potentially toxic gas, phosphoryl fluoride (POF3), was measured in some of the fire tests.

            Gas emissions when using water mist as extinguishing agent were also investigated. Fluoride gas emission can pose a serious toxic threat and the results are crucial findings for risk assessment and management, especially for large Li-ion battery packs.

            …………………

            Conclusions

            “This study covered a broad range of commercial Li-ion battery cells with different chemistry, cell design and size and included large-sized automotive-classed cells, undergoing fire tests. The method was successful in evaluating fluoride gas emissions for a large variety of battery types and for various test setups.

            Significant amounts of HF, ranging between 20 and 200 mg/Wh of nominal battery energy capacity, were detected from the burning Li-ion batteries. The measured HF levels, verified using two independent measurement methods, indicate that HF can pose a serious toxic threat, especially for large Li-ion batteries and in confined environments. The amounts of HF released from burning Li-ion batteries are presented as mg/Wh. If extrapolated for large battery packs the amounts would be 2–20 kg for a 100 kWh battery system, e.g. an electric vehicle and 20–200 kg for a 1000 kWh battery system, e.g. a small stationary energy storage. The immediate dangerous to life or health (IDLH) level for HF is 0.025 g/m3 (30 ppm)22 and the lethal 10 minutes HF toxicity value (AEGL-3) is 0.0139 g/m3 (170 ppm)23. The release of hydrogen fluoride from a Li-ion battery fire can therefore be a severe risk and an even greater risk in confined or semi-confined spaces.
            This is the first paper to report measurements of POF3, 15–22 mg/Wh, from commercial Li-ion battery cells undergoing abuse. However, we could only detect POF3 for one of the battery types and only at 0% SOC, showing the complexity of the parameters influencing the gas emission. No POF3 could be detected in any of the other tests.

            Using water mist resulted in a temporarily increased production rate of HF but the application of water mist had no significant effect on the total amount of released HF.
            The research area of Li-ion battery toxic gas emissions needs considerable more attention. Results as those presented here are crucial to be able to conduct a risk assessment that takes toxic HF gas into account.

            The results also enable strategies to be investigated for counteractions and safety handling, in order to achieve a high safety level for Li-ion battery applications. Today we have a rapid technology and market introduction of large Li-ion batteries but the risks associated with gas emissions have this far not been possible to take into consideration due to the lack of data.”

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    • #
      neil

      Reading the warranty of a well known home battery producer they offer 10 years (70% retention) with unlimited cycles. But reading the “small print” the operating limitation is 37.8 MWh of aggregate throughput, which is 540 cycles at the max storage of 13.5 kWh. To get to 10 years the average use would be limited to 1 kWh/day, compare that to the typical daily household consumption of 10~30 kWh/day and you have to wander what the real world life is. If you assume a your solar can provide daytime usage and charge the battery (which would typically require a 10kW system) and a night time draw down of 6kWh the warranty is only 2 years.

      111

    • #
      ivan

      great post David

      41

    • #
      Bobl

      David, do the math, here’s what I suggest (as a fellow EE). I’d buy a (safer) lead acid battery, 2k gets me about 4kWh of storage and pair that with a diesel generator and my 3kW existing solar array. Now I just need to figure out how to get the stupid government to pay for the diesel generator as well.

      00

  • #
    Gerry, England

    There seems to be a race between Australia and the UK as to who can completely trash their generating system and hence economy first. As long as England win the rugby on Saturday, I am quite happy to let Australia win the loony energy race.

    220

  • #
    Komrade Kuma

    Pink batteries policy announced by Pink Dingbat himself.

    If renewables are so efficient and cheap, why the hell do they need any subsidy at all?

    325

    • #
      philthegeek

      Yup, remove all subsidies!! Particularly the ones for remediation of old coalmine sites. Make the miners who made the profits from digging the hole pay for that.

      613

      • #
        TedM

        Still no useful content I see Geeko.

        84

      • #
        AndyG55

        How much income does coal mining bring into Australia, ( SNIPPED)

        How much income does wind power bring into Australia, (SNIPPED)

        Just remember.. your dole payments RELY on that income from coal and other mining.

        (Stop the name calling, you do this to many you don’t agree with, STOP IT!) CTS

        44

        • #
          Phillthegeek

          Oh, im not on the dole Angry. Fully paid off the public purse to teach the young ones about Climate Change. :)

          211

          • #
            AndyG55

            Kindy teacher then.. Explains many things.

            Glorified child-minder and indoctrinator.

            Public purse is still “paid by coal”, phloop, just like the dole is. !! :-)

            (STOP the name calling!) CTS

            81

  • #

    Hey, 15bn can buy you a non-existent never-to-exist submarine! (Of course, you can get a sub which actually exists for much less than that. It’s the non-existence that costs.)

    Well, those multi-national lithium scrapers and cobalt gougers better be nice to Julie Bishop. Her long experience and deep sympathy with misunderstood miners could be just what they need.

    And why dig coal in Oz for use in Oz when you need to export it to pay for foreign sourced and processed battery minerals? We might even have to send in proxy troops etc (remember the Bougainville “advisers”?) to the Congo or Bolivia to protect Shorten’s gigantic green initiative. That all costs, along with the diesel and emergency gas when the whole shebang turns out to be (another) gigantic green fiasco.

    Yep, better sell some more coal. The War on Coal needs the money.

    270

    • #
      Dennis

      You mean a French Barracuda submarine designed and built with nuclear power having to be redesigned for diesel electric power meaning fuel tanks, batteries and in short a whole new submarine compared to original design.

      It begs the question why?

      Buy nuclear or buy conventional submarines.

      Or was the announcement pure political theatre?

      150

      • #
        AndyG55

        And in SA, where are they going to ever get the electricity to build them !! ;-)

        135

        • #
          Dennis

          The Labor SA Government installed diesel generators.

          Lower emissions than coal, apparently.

          71

          • #
            Greg Cavanagh

            By the time the submarines are built and operational, diesel will be illegal to use too.

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            • #
              AndyG55

              Still wondering about the technology of powering submarines by wind or solar !!

              Surely one of the AGW stall-warts can explain.

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          • #
            Bobl

            Yes strangely they are CnH3n means you oxidize hydrogen as well as carbon. The products are water and harmless Co2

            So there’s is less Co2 compared to burning a pure carbon source like coal.

            Same argument for gas (mostly CH4)

            00

      • #

        I think there was a tactical stuffup in the initial product description there, if they were just off-the-shelf nuclear subs, they would not only be cheaper and better, they could sit in the Adelaide dockyards unfinished, but hooked up to the ailing electricity grid there. Win-win! They could avoid the green nutter backlash about the nuclear power bit by just conducting business as usual, and simply lying about it.

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    • #
      Kratoklastes

      And if submarines aren’t your thing, $15bn can get you a bunch of other things:

      • about 70% of ‘Gonski 2.0′ (the new education [sic] boondoggle that replaces Gonski 1.0); or

      • about ⅔ of the ‘$13bn’-a-year NDIS (actual cost: $22bn at least); or

      • about a fifth of the low-spec, unfit-for-purpose, already-obsolete ‘$25bn-all-up’ NBN.

      But wait – there’s less!

      Once .gov.au has your $15bn outlay, it will furnish significantly less than the advertised proportion of those projects – and what it does furnish will be of lower quality than promised, will be delivered later than promised, and will be unfit for purpose.

      Governments make infomercials look honest.

      And the vast bulk of the demos are too stupid to connect the dots (might have something to do with all that public education[sic]).

      Government does not exist to ameliorate public goods problems: it exists to transfer value from the tax base to the crony base.

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  • #
    Lionell Griffith

    Remember? Government programs are not supposed to work by design. That way, the government can double down, do more of the same, only more so. Thus things are going according to their plan. The only problem it is not as they had advertised it would be. That too is part of the plan. The next group of politicians voted in from whichever party will do exactly the same. The only thing that will change is the names on the doors, documents, and propaganda. When government escapes its legitimate bounds, it will continue to grow without limit up to the point of total collapse.

    Better people in government can’t fix it. The most they can do is delay the timing of the eventual collapse. Your choices are to let it go to collapse and rebuild or have the general population learn a better set of ideas. Ideas that can lead to government being restricted to its proper extent and function. An armed revolution might seem to be a more satisfying solution. Sadly the outcome of that path, with very few exceptions, is as bad or worse than the total collapse path.

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    • #
      yarpos

      Isnt the government usually the problem, rather than the solution? Certainly nothing any State or Federal government has done in the last decade has done anything to secure affordable,available and stable power for the Australian people.

      An uninvolved observer , or anyone with any common sense, or an engineering background, would assume they were attempting to do exactly the reverse.

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      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        On a global scale, what you say also holds true. There must be something in the water. I wonder if that fluoride thing is real?

        40

  • #
    John F. Hultquist

    Thanks David.

    In Oregon and Washington States, we have gone about 2 weeks with only two tiny blips of wind power.
    We’d each need a battery about the size of Mt. Rainier in the basement of each house to carry us through until the wind blows.
    Other than that, I don’t see any problems.

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  • #
    Tony Price

    Seems “Earth Hour” will become a regular, unplanned and unwelcome event in Oz.

    250

    • #
      AndyG55

      “regular, unplanned and unwelcome event in Oz”

      Always was.

      Will just start occurring much more often.

      85

    • #
      yarpos

      The lights will still be on at my place , as they always are for earth hour, even if we have the unplanned ones :-)

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      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        Every light is on around my area. I have a distant memory of when it was popular to do it, people would turn their lights off at home and go to a restaurant for the evening.

        41

      • #
        Annie

        We light up everywhere at earth hour, to celebrate the good things reliable electricity has given us.
        I notice that Melbourne and Sydney still have their respective light festivals despite the presence of the know-it-all greenie urbanites.

        83

  • #
    Ruairi

    Oh dear! what can the matter be,
    Must each home have a big battery?
    An Australian great folly,
    Costing billions of lolly,
    Planned by warmist nonsensical chattery.

    230

  • #
    Dennis

    What will the cost of transport add to our cost of living when the politicians implement their IPCC Paris Agreement tax on liquid fossil fuel, supermarket prices, etc?

    How will people be fed when the farm animal numbers emissions reduction target is achieved?

    It is madness.

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    • #
      shannon

      Dennis…..All the Libs need to do is start a “push back” policy..

      “What happens to the babies/young children of this Country when there isnt enough milk/baby formular ..due to the reduction of dairy cattle”.????

      30

  • #
    EternalOptimist

    If this scheme were free it would still be the most stupid idea since thicko O’numbskull won the Gold in the 2015 world stupidly stupid two-short-planks World championships

    71

  • #
    PeterS

    It’s really sad to see a once great nation as Australia decline to the point committing economic suicide due to a mass delusion, hysteria and insanity around an alleged man-made climate change catastrophe coming around the corner. We see this everywhere; schools, universities, political parties, many big businesses, etc. We will know this is actually fact or not very soon when we have the Victorian state election this weekend, and the federal one later on. Some say there is a silent majority that will give us a surprising result with the extreme left ALP booted out of Victoria. If that happens my hope for us postponing our crash and burn scenario will be boosted. Otherwise, we have one last hope at the federal election. Democracy is a wonderful thing but for democracy to work well the people need to use their thinking caps. Otherwise, we might as well elect our politicians the same way we conduct lotteries. Who knows it might turn out to be a better approach using such a lottery based system of elections instead of relying on a majority of voters who are asleep, don’t give a damn or just plain fools.

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  • #
    Tom R Hammer

    And the Shakespearean comedy continues onto the next act….
    Wind and solar generators were supposed to change the world and replace fossi fuel generation. Shorten has just admitted that shortfalls exist and they aren’t minor, so more investment is required into storage. And that won’t solve the issues either, but the fantasy of renewable energy for the faithful won’t go away. The majority of the Liberal party is sympathetic to the dream as well. It’s just a little slower in its pursuit. The South Australian government is even touting its achievements as an example to follow.
    The level of political, groupthink delusion is unbelievable. At this stage, I can only sit back and enjoy the unfolding disaster. I hope someone is chronicling the economic Hari-Kari. Do you think any of these incompetent politicians will feel any remorse as they count their retirement benefits in a decade or so?

    72

  • #
    Chad

    Not entirely “off topic” howevr , is the notice from ASIC that Australias largest Solar farm installer ..RCR Tomlinson… has today gone into Administration !
    A huge civil enginering organisation with 3000 employees and many projects to its name has been brought to financial crisis partly as a result of competitive bidding for multiple solar farms.

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  • #
    Chad

    Oh dear !
    The blog seems to be throwing another “wobbler” .. with post numbering, replies, and sequencing in the blender again !!

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  • #
    John in Oz

    Eight coal-fired power stations are set to close over the next two decades because they have reached the end of their operating life, and Labor’s higher emissions reduction target will drive a faster rationalisation.

    If Bill and his cronies had ever run a business or had a real job outside of politics they might understand that businesses usually close when they become uneconomical.

    As more and more renewables are installed and the demand for mains power reduces, the eight coal-fired power stations may be forced to close well before 2030. Perhaps Bill will make it illegal for them to close until his pipe-dream Nirvana is completed, regardless of whether or not they are profitable.

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  • #
    Another Ian

    “We Don’t Need No Stinking Giant Fans”

    “Amid hundreds of graphs, charts and tables in the latest World Energy Outlook (WEO) released last week by the International Energy Agency, there is one fundamental piece of information that you have to work out for yourself: the percentage of total global primary energy demand provided by wind and solar. The answer is 1.1 per cent. The policy mountains have laboured and brought forth not just a mouse, but — as the report reluctantly acknowledges — an enormously disruptive mouse.”

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2018/11/22/we-dont-need-no-stinking-giant-fans-9/

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  • #
    theRealUniverse

    ‘due diligence’ better (politicians) look that term up in Wikipedia before applying.

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  • #
    theRealUniverse

    I loved the video, silly me thought it was for real by Mecredes, oh dear! What a laugh :D

    41

  • #

    Now, as we reel at the magnitude of Shorten’s projected green disaster, let’s keep in mind two things:

    Comparable green follies are already underway in Australia. That’s why Melbourne has a white elephant desal instead of a dam on the Mitchell. I could go on. And we just live with it. Why? Because all of the mainstream media and most of the alternative media are the Common Enemy of Mankind. Really.

    The other thing to remember is that Green Blob is not the result of bumbling idealism and misguided good intentions. Shorten knows he is wasting. Turnbull knew. I’m not saying these are smart guys. I’m saying they’re not this thick. Green Blob is all calculation and malevolence; the absurdity is just a by-product.

    The Common Enemy of Mankind is telling you on the one hand to de-carbonise, de-industrialise and just let China make all your stuff with all your carbon and iron. On the other hand the Common Enemy of Mankind will alarm you every day about how China is the new babies-on-bayonets monster who coming to get you, just like the Kaiser. Now how can that be?

    Do you get it? Neither do I. But I get the bit about calculation and malevolence.

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    • #
      Greebo

      Now how can that be?

      Easy. The Common Enemy of Mankind worked out ages ago that your average punter has the attention span of a goldfish, and the attraction to glitter of a magpie. So, they write whatever garbage they like, and distract their audience with shiny free stuff. The legerdemain is breathtaking. David Copperfield eat your heart out.

      20

  • #
    Robber

    How do you calculate the value of batteries?
    With rooftop solar, you currently get paid about 11 cents/kWhr feeding surplus electricity into the grid. If you can use electricity during the peak daylight hours you avoid usage charges of about 22 cents/kWhr or about 12 cents/kWhr off peak at weekends.
    So if you have a 5 kW system that generates an average of 30 kWhr per day equals 11,000 kWhr for the year, that’s annual income of $1,200 if it is all fed into the grid. (Note that the average house in Victoria uses about 5,000 kWhr per year.)
    If you have a battery that enables you to store and use all of that solar power in house at peak times, that provides annual savings of $2,400. But given average usage, potential saving is probably closer to $1,800 per year.
    So $600 per year extra saving will give an apparent 6% return on a $10,000 investment in a battery, but remember that the $10,000 cost must be written off after 10-15 years, so the write off negates the annual saving.

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    • #
      John in Oz

      I think your figures are a little ambitious, which makes Bill’s proposal ‘worse than we thought’.

      I have had a 5KW solar system for a little over 8 years (Adelaide Hills, North facing, no trees) and it has provided a daily average of 20.33KwH/day.

      Your annual 11,000KwH is more like 7,500KwH (from my real, not theoretical, data) making savings, ROI and pay-back periods more unattractive.

      My AGL contract does not have peak/off-peak charges – just $0.38/KwH courtesy of SA having large quantities of the cheapest form of generation available (wind/solar and /sarc).

      Luckily I am on the old FIT system and get 60c/KwH so I will have paid the system cost back by early next year (9 years). Batteries on systems with these FIT rates do not make any sense.

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  • #
    PeterS

    Tomago has fired a bombshell most people probably will ignore, especially Shorten and all other leftists. CEO Matt Howell on 2GB asked Shorten for details as to how his business and others like it will remain viable under Shorten’s recently announced battery driven energy policy. Howell also stated:
    “batteries are not a solution”.
    “Eight minutes, that’s all it will power us for”
    “It’ll be like trying to tow an oil tanker with a canoe.”

    Reading between the lines Tomago has effectively handed to Shorten a “please explain” notice and effectively saying if an appropriate response is not received then Tomago will have to close down and he has warned we would rely on poorer quality aluminium from overseas. If this is not clear enough that letting Shorten become PM will lead to a crash and burn scenario very early then nothing will. Wake up Australia!

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    • #
      Robber

      Tomago put the government on notice with their response to the Finkel inquiry: “If the trend of rising electricity prices continues, electricity will no longer be affordable for TAC”.
      While in Victoria the Alcoa smelter at Portland is receiving $210 million from the Vic govt and $30 million from the federal govt to keep it operating until 2021.
      Other submissions to the Finkel inquiry included:
      Agriculture Electricity Taskforce. Electricity costs are crippling the agricultural sector. In the past five years, our food and fibre producers have been subject to exponential price increases.
      Australian Chamber of Commerce. State and territory gas moratoria should be lifted. State renewable targets should be abolished. It is essential that all businesses, no matter the size or sector, have access to affordable, reliable, and secure energy. Australia is unfortunately an increasingly uncompetitive place to do business.
      BHP. The need for change is urgent. Increasing energy prices and supply disruptions hinder the competitiveness of Australian businesses and threaten future investment (particularly given the global mobility of capital in the manufacturing and resources sectors).
      Energy Users Association: Progressively over the last 10 years Australia has given up its comparative advantage in competitively priced, highly reliable energy which has underpinned significant industrial development and employment for many decades. If allowed to continue on this trajectory this comparative advantage will be permanently lost and along with it, a majority of energy intensive industry including many industrial, food processing and manufacturing industries.

      But governments and oppositions ignore these threats as they worship the climate change demigod.

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      • #
        PeterS

        Both sides of politics are doing it because they are convinced a very large proportion of the public want them to act on climate change. Whether it’s the majority or not is questionable but the fact is it’s a vote winner. The voters will have their say in the coming elections so we shall see how mad Australia has become. We can hope for a Trump-like retaliation but in our case we don’t have a Trump lead party so the best we can hope for is for a hung parliament with the ACP and ON holding the key. It’s all we have to postpone a crash and burn scenario under either major party.

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  • #
    OriginalSteve

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-22/lack-of-planning-threatens-renewable-future-expert-warns/10511696?WT.ac=statenews_act

    Oh help…..

    “The process of improving our energy networks is complex and requires close collaboration between governments, regulators and the Australian Energy Market Operator.

    “AEMO’s first integrated system plan this year was a great first step in helping to coordinate a national approach, by recognising some of these renewable energy zones and the network upgrades that will help to make the most of them.”

    Professor Baldwin said renewable power would make up half of total national generation by the mid-2020s at the present rate, achieving Paris Climate Accord goals for emission reductions.

    “We are about to become the world-leading example of the new energy system,” he said.

    —->> ….Presumbaly as our economy is sacrificed as a world leading how-not-to “example” in create this Mad Max world of “eco-nirvana”……

    “At present in 2018 and 2019 the total build of renewable energy capacity is of the order of 5 gigawatts a year, every year.

    “This is a massive transformation if it’s allowed to continue at the rate it is at the present, and we have to plan very carefully for this enormous transformation.”
    The office of federal Energy Minister Angus Taylor has been contacted for comment.

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    • #
      Chad

      Professor Baldwin said renewble power would make up half of total national generation by the mid-2020s at the present rate, achieving Paris Climate Accord goals for emission reductions.

      “We are about to become the world-leading example of the new energy system,” he said.

      —->> ….Presumbaly as our economy is sacrificed as a world leading how-not-to “example” in create this Mad Max world of “eco-nirvana”……

      “At present in 2018 and 2019 the total build of renewable energy capacity is of the order of 5 gigawatts a year, every year.

      Obviously, Prof Baldwin is not aware of Germanys pioneering efforts in this technology !
      If he was, he would possibly not be as enthusiastic ! ..or make such ignorant statements.

      Hopefully he will also be made aware that Australias most prolific solar and Wind construction /installation company ..RCR Tomlinsons,..has just slipped into administration !

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    • #
      yarpos

      ““At present in 2018 and 2019 the total build of renewable energy capacity is of the order of 5 gigawatts a year, every year.”

      again quoting meaningless capacity in Watts, rather than what will be delivered

      70

  • #
    Neville

    Just to repeat that today the Solar&Wind idiocy generates just 0.8% of TOTAL global energy. And bout the same % for OZ, so the Shorten donkey should tell us how this will change temps by 2040 or 2100 and beyond.

    Of course the RS & NAS peer reviewed science also states that if ALL human emissions stopped today we still wouldn’t see a drop in temp for at least a thousand years. Make of that what you will but it is what the alarmist scientists truly believe.

    Even Dr Hansen called S&W “just BS and fraud” and Dr Finkel our chief scientist agreed in the Senate hearing that we could reduce OZ emissions to ZERO and it still wouldn’t make any difference to temp at all.

    So if you want to waste another 15 bn $ on more fra-d and BS for a guaranteed ZERO return you should vote for Labor and the Greens. And China and India now use 62% of the world’s coal, so they know a lot more than the OZ Labor donkeys. Here’s Lomborg’s latest update of the IEA world energy mix.

    https://climatechangedispatch.com/where-do-we-get-most-of-our-energy-hint-not-renewables/

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  • #
    Ronald Bruce

    Every dollar spent on renewables is a dollar wasted.

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    • #
      Another Ian

      It is actually worse than that

      Every dollar on renewables wasted

      Every one of those dollars could have been put to better use, so lost opportunity cost

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      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James Goodfellow, when his careless son has happened to break a pane of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation – “It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?”

        Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions.

        Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier’s trade – that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs – I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.

        But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, “Stop there! Your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen.”

        It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.

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    • #
      Greebo

      Every dollar wasted is about $1.50 in debt.

      10

  • #
    pat

    22 Nov: AP: As Trump questions global warming, UN says: US gov’t won’t
    By JAMEY KEATEN; Frank Jordans contributed from Berlin
    GENEVA — A top U.N. scientist on Thursday shrugged off an online quip from U.S. President Donald Trump that questioned global warming, saying a U.S. government report will show the “fundamental impacts of climate change on the U.S. continent.”
    Officials at the World Meteorological Organization also said environmentally minded efforts by the state of California, in parts of the financial sector, among grassroots activists and others will have more of an impact to help the fight against climate change than “political disturbance” and “discourse” will impede it.

    The science, they said, will have the last word.
    “It’s very interesting what you will see tomorrow,” said ***Pavel Kabat, WMO’s chief scientist. “That is a major report coming supported by all agencies … under the administration of President Trump ranging from NOAA to NASA, from NASA to DOE, showing the fundamental impacts of climate change on the U.S. continent.”
    Kabat was speaking at a news conference to present WMO’s latest greenhouse gas bulletin, which said levels in the atmosphere climbed to a record last year. In a statement, WMO secretary-general Petteri Taalas warned “the window of opportunity” to act against climate change has nearly closed.
    WMO says globally averaged concentrations of carbon dioxide reached 405.5 parts per million in 2017, up slightly from the previous year and from 400.1 in 2015…

    “I think on the longer timescale we are not that much worried about the current political disturbance,” (Kabat) said.
    “Despite the statements of President Trump, there is still a very concrete and specific movement by the agencies under the administration to actually make the case of action against climate change,” Kabat said.
    https://www.apnews.com/a2f10b10adcb47599158c7d912e7a308

    Global carbon dioxide levels hit a new record in 2017, UN warns
    Telegraph.co.uk-12 hours ago
    Trump tweeted on Wednesday. WMO chief scientist ***Pavel Kabat said unusually cold weather was consistent with climate change…

    above has been removed and the link now take you to the following, which is also worth a read:

    22 Nov: UK Telegraph: Vanuatu considers suing fossil fuel companies over climate change, as global carbon dioxide levels hit new record
    By Our Foreign Staff
    The comments came as the UN World Meteorological Organisation warned that the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere had hit a new record in 2017, with no sign of slowing down…
    Speaking at the Climate Vulnerable Forum’s Virtual Summit earlier in the day, Mr Regenvanu announced the legal options Vanuatu was considering…
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/22/global-carbon-dioxide-levels-hit-new-record-2017-un-warns/

    but here is Kabat saying “unusually cold weather was consistent with climate change”:

    22 Nov: CNBC: Reuters: UPDATE 1-Global carbon dioxide levels hit a new record in 2017, U.N. says
    by Tom Miles
    “Brutal and Extended Cold Blast could shatter ALL RECORDS – Whatever happened to Global Warming?”, Trump tweeted on Wednesday.

    WMO chief scientist ***Pavel Kabat said unusually cold weather was consistent with climate change.
    “On the longer timescale we are not that much worried about the current political disturbance,” he said.
    “Global warming is unequivocal,” added WMO Deputy Secretary-General Elena Manaenkova. “Climate change is scientifically proven.”
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/22/reuters-america-update-1-global-carbon-dioxide-levels-hit-a-new-record-in-2017-u-n-says.html

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    • #
      pat

      info on Pavel Kabat:

      The Earth League Members: Pavel Kabat
      Founding Chair and Director of the Royal Dutch Academy of Sciences and Arts Institute for Integrated Research on the Wadden Sea Region (Wadden Academy), a Member of the Leadership Council for the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network, and Co-Founder of the High Level Alpbach – Laxenburg Group, in which global leaders from academia, governments, businesses and civil society come together to support and advocate for sustainable transitions and sustainable development.

      Trained as a mathematician and hydrologist, Professor Kabat’s almost 30 year research career has covered earth system science and global change, with a specific focus on land-atmosphere interactions, climate hydrology, water cycle and water resources. He is an author and coauthor of over 300 refereed publications, including 9 books, member of 3 international editorial boards, and (co)editor of numerous special issues of peer reviewed international journals.

      He has also contributed as lead author and review editor to the assessment reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which was a co-recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007. Other academic and societal awards and distinctions received by Professor Kabat include the Zayed International Prize for the Environment (which was awarded to all the experts who worked on the Millennium Ecosystem Assessment in 2005), and several honorary degrees, professorships, memberships and distinguished fellowships internationally.

      In 2013, Professor Kabat was honored by Her Majesty Queen Beatrix Knight with the Order of the Netherlands Lion, a national order of chivalry founded in 1815 by King William I, which recognizes excellence in the arts, science, sport, and literature.
      https://www.hzg.de/ms/earthleague/075919/index.php.en

      22 March: WMO: WMO appoints new chief scientist and research director
      The World Meteorological Organization has appointed Pavel Kabat as its first chief scientist and research director. He will lead the overall strategic direction of the WMO science, and its underlying research activities, including the World Climate Research Programme, the World Weather Research Programme and WMO’s Global Atmosphere Watch, which monitors greenhouse gas concentrations, air quality and the ozone layer…

      Professor Kabat is director general and chief executive officer of the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA), an independent, international, science, and science-to-policy institute. IIASA has seen substantial growth in its activities under Kabat’s leadership, and now has 23 member countries, nearly 400 international staff, and a global research network of around 3,000 scholars and over 800 partner institutions. He is also a professor of Earth System Science at Wageningen University in the Netherlands…
      https://public.wmo.int/en/media/news/wmo-appoints-new-chief-scientist-and-research-director

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      • #
        pat

        this is a followup to a comment in moderation re Pavel Kabat:

        About The Earth League
        https://www.hzg.de/ms/earthleague/075907/index.php.en

        The Earth League Members
        We are delighted to announce that Tanya Abrahamse, Hironori Hamanaka, Laurence Tubiana, and Carolina Vera have accepted the invitations, and have become official Earth League members. We also welcome Peng Gong and Wolfgang Lucht as new associated members, as well as Daniela Jacob​ as Ex-officio member.
        (INCLUDES)
        ◾Chair: Johan Rockström
        Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact research (PIK)

        ◾Ottmar Edenhofer
        Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact research (PIK)

        ◾Hironori Hamanaka
        IGES, Institute for Global Environmental Strategies, Japan

        ◾Sir Brian Hoskins
        Grantham Institute – Climate Change and the Environment at Imperial College London, UK

        ***◾Pavel Kabat
        International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis, Austria

        ◾Jennifer Morgan
        Greenpeace International, Holland

        ◾Veerabhadran Ramanathan
        Scripps Institution of Oceanography, San Diego (UC), USA◾Hans Joachim Schellnhuber
        Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, Germany

        ◾Peter Schlosser
        Earth Institute, Columbia University, USA

        ◾Leena Srivastava
        TERI University, India

        ◾Lord Nicholas Stern
        Grantham Research Institute on Climate Change and the Environment, London School of Economics and Political Science, UK

        ◾Laurence Tubiana
        ECF. European Climate Foundation

        ◾Guanhua Xu
        Chinese Academy of Sciences, China
        https://www.hzg.de/ms/earthleague/075846/index.php.en

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        • #
          pat

          Donna Laframboise wrote about The Earth League in 2013 (her link to the full list of members is broken, but I’ve already posted a working link):

          July 2013: NoFrakkingConsensus: The Earth League: Self-Important, Self-Appointed Busybodies
          Once again, people described as “leading scientists” turn out to be economists, UN officials, and those with links to activist organizations.
          Earlier this year, a new organization held its inaugural meeting in London. Called the Earth League, it’s described in a press release as…READ ON
          https://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2013/07/09/the-earth-league-self-important-self-appointed-busybodies/

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        • #
          OriginalSteve

          I often wonder uf wealthy and influential peopke are actually more insecure and gullible than the bulk of the population.

          I wonder because they have signed up to all these little clubs and “secret” societies , to give them meaning and make them feel important by bossing whole groups if people around. They buy more expensive toys and have cosmetic surgery….for what? Acceptance? To be liked? To be part if the “in” crowd, like some part if “Swallows and Amazons” plot for a few days a year?

          And yet, when tbey die, all they will possess, is the earth in thier burial plot and be forgotten by most of the population…….

          Was it worth it?

          Im glad I have my faith in God.

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      • #
        pat

        Kabat is the guy being quoted against Trump in the MSM today. just providing background.

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  • #
    Peter C

    Brexit hangs in the balance at present and will fail if Theresa May and the remainer conservatives get their way. Yet the EU imposes this rule!

    UK’s backup power subsidies are illegal, European court rules

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/11/22/uks-backup-power-subsidies-are-illegal-european-court-rules/

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  • #
    robert rosicka

    So there’s heaps of money to be made in renewables and lithium mining hey !

    They must be doing it wrong but when a big company like this goes belly up it makes you wonder what part of the business failed ?

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-22/engineering-firm-rcr-tomlinson-goes-into-administration/10544980

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  • #
    Theo Groenevelt

    This GREEN type of Stupidity being unleashed on our Sister Country…(IM in Canada, is identical to the unmitigated Disaster that the pROVINCE of Ontario unleashed in 2009. Now your avg electricity cost there is near 20/kwhr CAD. Gasoline here is now hovering 1.10 to 1.15 CAD per L…diesel at 1.35 L. Trudeaus Carbon tax set to go ineefect will add another 20 cents per L.

    Global Marxist TRAITORS everywher I look with the exception fo the US. Unreal abject ASSININE BS Scam is what Climate change is…

    62

  • #
    RickWill

    … Should the Federal Government have conducted some due diligence before heading down this path?

    Such a naive question. This is good old pork barrelling – due diligence …ha, hah ,hah, hahah.

    There are now two certainties – electricity prices for grid power will have after burners lit and battery prices in Australia are not going down. This announcement has added $2000 to the price of installed batteries system by the time the policy is implemented.

    Anyhow the next Federal election is a good one to lose. High certainty of recession within the next 4 years; even higher if immigration is reduced. The incomes of those involved in energy supply in Australia is rivalling the banks drain on the economy. The power base is gradually shifting from banks to energy providers as they take an ever increasing share of the cake, which is getting smaller on a per capita basis. Immigration is the current powerhouse of growth in Australia.
    https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/mortgage-approvals-fall-more-than-expected-20181012-p509ck.html

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    • #

      Rick Will mentions this: (my bolding here)

      There are now two certainties – electricity prices for grid power will have after burners lit and battery prices in Australia are not going down. This announcement has added $2000 to the price of installed batteries system by the time the policy is implemented.

      Sometimes I disagree with Rick, but on this occasion, he is 100% correct.

      It’s painfully obvious that the cost of a home battery system will rise slowly, so that by the time the policy is implemented, those home battery systems will all cost $2000 more than they do now. It’s money for jam really. Installers must be eyeing off those Porsche catalogues right now.

      So now, add battery installation companies to the list of cold callers to your home phone number.

      Tony.

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  • #
    Mark M

    When Bill shorten says he wants to save the planet with windmills, I for one, am unconvinced.

    71

  • #
    Chad

    Giles P over on Renew economy is getting his logic twisted again with the latest LCOE figures from Bloomberg.
    He thinks that just because Solar and Winf are showing cheaper per MWh than ther generating technology, then it makes them the obvious choice for all future generation !
    He fails, as usual, to include any storage costs to enable a continuous 24h supply,….even though the data is there in front of him.
    Batteries are indicated as the cheapest storage at approx $200/MWh
    EG.
    Solar generating 24 hours worth of power at $50/MWh is $1200
    But 16 hours of battery storage is needed at $200/MWh or $3200
    So a total of $4400 for a 24 hr supply at 1MW from solar.. IE a “real” cost for solar is $183/MWh
    However ,
    Coal at $130 /MWh could supply the same 1MW over 24hrs for $3120
    And CCgas at $75 /MWh would only cost $1800. !
    All costs are averages from the Bloomberg report.

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    • #
      Robber

      For Australia, Dr Finkel reported levelised costs as follows:
      Coal $76/MWhr (big discrepancy with BNEF number of $130)
      Wind $92/MWhr (no backup)
      Solar $91/MWhr (no backup – big discrepancy with BNEF number of $50).
      Solar with 12 hours storage $172/MWhr
      Note that the BNEF numbers quoted by reneweconomy report in fine print that the dispatchable costs for wind and solar allow for only 4 hours of storage.

      70

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        But Guv, feel the quality…..

        30

      • #
        Chad

        LCOE data varies hugely depending on who is doing the calcs , which raw data they input, and which formula they use. They are all a fudge !
        But even when they fudge them to make solar the cheapest, it still does not pan out to be the most cost effective for a real utility supply…..let alone a reliable one !

        41

    • #
      RickWill

      Averages do not work with intermittent power sources. That is the fundamental failure in al thw Finkel and AEMO analyses. They make a very serious mistake with the broad assumption that the diversity fairy will even it all out.

      The only appropriate way to model intermittent generation is to actually take the time history over short intervals, preferably no more than 5 minutes, and use that to determine realistic capacity factors. The result is that the required overbuild is about 3-fold that of the average value. Your $183/MWh is more realistically $540/MWh. Essentially identical to what it would cost you to make your own power using rooftop solar and storage battery.

      To supply a 1kWh/day load in southern Australia, without fossil fuel back-up, you need 1kW of solar panels and 2kWh of battery capacity. Think about it – that is and average load of 42W. Not much!. At present prices around $3500 for hopefully better than 10 years operation.

      LCOE is a meaningless number when applied to intermittent power generation. The simpletons who apply it have zero understanding of an on-demand power supply system.

      40

      • #
        John in Oz

        It is worse than that.

        My 8 year old 5KW solar system works at around 17% efficiency over the entire period.

        To get 1KWh average you need 6KW solar for usable power PLUS 12KW to charge the 2KW batteries.

        20

      • #
        Chad

        Most LCOE for solar and wind already have CF worked in…hopefully based on accurate local data ..insolation, weather patterns, real example feedback etc..
        But it is impossible to allow for the random occurance of bad weather, no wind, etc.
        With gas or coal you can add spare capacity to allow for failures, but adding extra solar or wind turbines wont help in the dark or windless days….
        ..Only thermal backup can ensure continuation of power.

        00

  • #
    pat

    21 Nov: CBS Sacramento: California Raises More Than $800 Million In Carbon Auction
    California raised more than $800 million from selling permits to release greenhouse gases in the latest quarterly auction.
    Auction results released Wednesday show all available permits were sold through California’s cap-and-trade program. The program requires polluters to obtain permits for each ton of carbon they release.

    Sixty percent of the revenue is earmarked for specific projects including a ***high-speed train planned to run between San Francisco and Los Angeles. The remaining 40 percent is divvied up by state lawmakers for programs that address climate change, such as electric-vehicle subsidies…
    https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/11/21/california-carbon-auction-800-million/

    21 Nov: Mercury News editorial: Editorial: California bullet train built on foundation of deceit
    Precious public funds squandered on high-speed rail could go to housing, school and transit needs
    It’s been clear for years now that bullet-train planners cannot deliver the project voters were promised a decade ago. Nor do they have close to the necessary funds to build even a scaled-back system.
    Now a long-awaited state audit released last week finds that poor management has contributed to construction delays and billions of dollars of cost overruns. And inadequate contract controls left the auditor unable to determine whether the state received the quantity and quality of work it has paid for thus far.

    It’s time to end this fiasco — to stop throwing good money after bad.
    It’s an embarrassment to the state. To Gov. Jerry Brown, who has blindly pushed the project ever since he took office in 2011. And to Dan Richard, the chairman of the high-speed rail board since 2012 who perpetuates the notion that private investors are just around the next bend…

    California’s high-speed rail project has been built so far on a foundation of deceit.
    A decade ago, voters were promised a system from San Diego to San Francisco and Sacramento at a cost of $45 billion. Today, the cost estimate is $77 billion just to link San Francisco to Anaheim.
    And, after 10 years of work, the High-Speed Rail Authority has only managed to secure $12.7 billion, enough for links between Bakersfield and Madera, and from Gilroy to San Francisco. It doesn’t even have the money for tunneling needed to connect those two legs.
    So much for a statewide system.

    Worse, according to state Auditor Elaine Howle, there’s a high likelihood of additional cost increases. In other words, the constantly rising price is almost certain to go up more…
    Let’s stop this waste of scarce public money now.
    https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/11/21/editorial-stop-wasting-money-on-california-bullet-train/

    30

    • #
      pat

      a private investor found around the bend! you have to love the anonymous Brits:

      22 Nov: News3 Las Vegas: A step closer to reality: The high-speed connection between L.A. and Las Vegas
      by Gerard Ramalho
      (KSNV/NBC) The much talked about high-speed train between Las Vegas and Southern California seems to have new steam, thanks to a new partner.
      Brightline, the company now working to make it a reality recently announced plans to partner with British entrepreneur and adventurer Richard Branson
      Branson himself tweeted about his newest venture called Virgin Trains USA.

      News 3 met some Brits near Downtown Las Vegas who say for them high-speed rail is a way of life in London.
      “He should do it. That sounds amazing. I mean I would get on that train to California right now,” said one person…

      The Las Vegas project would include 185-miles of a dual-track line between Vegas and Victorville, Calif.. It’s not exactly Los Angeles, but eventually, the rail could be extended.
      One California couple told us they’d like a train, just not from Victorville.
      “If it’s not conveniently located then nobody’s going to do it,” said the couple.
      For some, it seemed like a runaway idea that appears to again be chugging along, only this time with the backing of a brand with a strong reputation
      https://news3lv.com/news/local/a-step-closer-to-reality-the-high-speed-connection-between-la-and-las-vegas

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    • #
      ivan

      can i use that please Pat

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    • #

      Pat, this should be right up your alley. We often talk about dispersing the UN and other such trough-sloppers to the world’s boondocks. Well, here is what happens when you establish a major UN agency in Nairobi…
      https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-21/un-environment-chief-resigns-after-racking-huge-air-travel-bill

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  • #
    pat

    22 Nov: ZeroHedge: Tyler Durden: Coldest Thanksgiving In 150 Years As Northeast Hit By “Siberian” Temperatures
    “Anomalously cold weather will impact the I-95 corridor Thursday and Friday. Record low temperatures have already been broken Thursday morning across New England, and record low maximum temperatures are expected in many cities Thursday. This combined with winds gusting 15-30 mph will make it feel below zero at times through Friday morning,” said Ed Vallee, head meteorologist at Vallee Weather Consulting (LINK)…

    According to Accuweather, over the past 150 years or so, the bulk of the frigid Thanksgivings occurred during the mid-1800s to near the turn of the 20th Century. In New York City, there have been less than a handful of Thanksgiving days with a forecast morning low in the teens F and a high in the 20s, according to AccuWeather Meteorologist Jesse Ferrell.
    “Nov. 30, 1871, holds the record for the coldest Thanksgiving Day on record in New York City with a low of 15 and a high of 22,” Ferrell said.
    That means that today will be just shy of the record, with AccuWeather projecting a morning low of 19 and an afternoon high of 27 in New York City this Thanksgiving Day.

    ***Or maybe not: those relying on observations from New York City’s Central Park should know that the anemometer is not working and the site is currently inaccurately registering calm winds. RealFeel Temperatures are in the single digits and teens in the New York City area, with winds averaging between 15 and 30 mph this Thanksgiving Day…READ ON
    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-22/coldest-thanksgiving-100-years-northeast-braces-siberia-temperatures?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zerohedge%2Ffeed+%28zero+hedge+-+on+a+long+enough+timeline%2C+the+survival+rate+for+everyone+drops+to+zero%29

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    • #
      philthegeek

      As Northeast Hit By “Siberian” Temperatures

      It will be the wandering jetstream…again.

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      • #
        el gordo

        By Xmas the Arctic Oscillation will be extremely negative and the northern hemisphere snowed under, except for Siberia.

        http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/daily_ao_index/ao_index.html

        The North Atlantic Oscillation will be in lockstep with the AO and blocking highs the rigeur, western Europe will be pummelled.

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        • #
          AndyG55

          If you have a look at the history of larger jet stream wobbles, you will find that they generally occur at changes in the trend on the AMO.

          1940ish, 1977ish and it seems from some data that around 1900-1910 also experience these wobbles.

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      • #
        el gordo

        The punters feel it in their water, the Thames should theoretically freeze solid.

        A spokesperson for Coral said of the chances of a record-breaking winter, “We might be enjoying some autumn sunshine now but all the signs are pointing towards a bleak winter, with weeks of snow forecast for the Christmas months”, and continued “Our odds suggest there’s a real chance of this winter entering the record books as the coldest.”

        In a warming world this should not be happening.

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        • #
          Annie

          Theoretically old Father Thames could freeze. It takes more to freeze over now though as it flows faster than it used to, with new embankments.
          I remember ice-skating on a pond near Reading in early 1963!

          40

          • #
            el gordo

            The hydrology has changed but they have got rid of the power stations along the way and that may make a difference. A true indication would be a partial freezing of the English Channel like the early 1960s.

            50

            • #
              Peter C

              Did the English Channel really freeze in the 1960′s?

              20

              • #
                el gordo

                ‘In January 1963 the sea froze for a mile out from shore at Herne Bay, Kent. The sea also froze inshore in many places, removing many British inland waterbirds’ usual last resort of finding food in estuaries and shallow sea. The sea froze 4 miles out to sea from Dunkirk, and BBC Television news expressed a fear that the Strait of Dover would freeze across.

                ‘The upper reaches of the River Thames also froze over,[10][13] though it did not freeze in Central London, partly due to the hot effluent from two thermal power stations, Battersea and Bankside …’ wiki

                20

        • #
          philthegeek

          In a warming world this should not be happening.

          or: https://phys.org/news/2018-01-arctic-uk-extreme-weather.html

          25

          • #
            AndyG55

            Do you have any empirical evidence that atmospheric CO2 causes warming, phloop?

            Until you have, anything else is just mindless speculation.

            But MINDLESS is all you have to offer, isn’t it, petal. !

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          • #
            AndyG55

            According to AGW folklore and mythology, NORMAL WEATHER is caused by “globull warming”

            Even if the Earth were to plunge into another Ice Age, the GULLIBLE AGW apologists would still “believe” that it was caused by “globull worming”

            That is DESPITE there being no evidence at all of any human influence on real global temperatures.

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          • #
            el gordo

            ‘Increased jet waviness is associated with a weakening of the jet stream, and the accompanying ‘blocking’ is linked to some of the most extreme U.K. seasonal weather events experienced over the past decade.’

            Good catch Phil. a warm Arctic is a prerequisite for freezing weather in NH mid latitudes.

            So you can see meandering jet streams in both hemispheres at the moment, accompanied by blocking highs. This is a global cooling signal but obviously there will be differences because the northern hemisphere has more land mass.

            Australia is a very large island with the top end stuck in the tropics and the climate never changes, only wet and dry. The mid latitudes is where all the action takes place.

            I said to a colleague its a bit chilly for this time of year and she replied ‘typical spring weather’, so to avoid an argument I rudely turned my back and remained mute. BoMs seasonal forecast is flawed because their models don’t include global cooling as a possibility, junk in junk out.

            What impact will a spotless sun have on the oscillations?

            21

      • #
        AndyG55

        Just like 1976/7, which was around the coldest period since the climb out of the LIA.

        No evidence that atmospheric CO2 has anything to do with climate at all.

        63

        • #
          el gordo

          Do you know why Siberia was a wild life refuge 20,000 year ago?

          40

        • #
          Annie

          1976 also produced that long hot summer in England; amazing planet that this is. At the same time we had a rather cool summer in Cyprus…my parents enjoyed the break there!

          10

    • #
      RickWill

      Clearly more evidence of Climate Change; exactly as Michael Mann predicted, the Humpty Dumpty of Climate Change – it will mean whatever he wants it to mean. In his world he can never be wrong.

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  • #
    pat

    lengthy encouragement/PR from theirABC for the Brainwashed Students’ strike:

    23 Nov: ABC: Young climate change protesters denied entry to Bill Shorten’s electorate office in Melbourne
    ABC Radio Adelaide By Malcolm Sutton
    A group of school students preparing for a nationwide strike over climate change inaction have prompted the closure of Bill Shorten’s electorate office, on the advice of federal police.
    About 20 students from the Victorian town of Castlemaine travelled to the Opposition Leader’s Maribyrnong office on Thursday but were denied entry by security officers, who also requested the help of Victorian Police…

    “I’m going on strike because I believe that right now, temporarily sacrificing my education is what I need to do to save my future,” said Year 5 student Callum Neilson-Bridgfoot.
    Students have already protested at the Bendigo offices of Labor MP Lisa Chesters and Nationals Deputy Leader Bridget McKenzie…

    The ABC understands that about 40 people had protested at Mr Shorten’s office earlier on Thursday and had made several attempts to enter the building and talk with staff, but police and security did not allow it…
    The Castlemaine movement was inspired by the actions of 15-year-old Swedish student Greta Thunberg…
    Some students have also taken inspiration from a landmark climate lawsuit filed by 21 teenagers in Oregon…

    School students from across Australia to strike.
    The students’ actions have inspired a national School Strike for Climate campaign that is expected to draw hundreds of students from around the country to state and territory parliaments on November 30…

    Adelaide Year 10 student Deanna Athanasos: “The future is going to be pretty bad if I’m living in a world with no Great Barrier Reef and constant droughts, hurricanes and other really bad things that will come from it if politicians don’t take any serious action on climate change.”
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/bill-shorten-office-closed-over-school-student-climate-strike/10545456

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  • #
    pat

    23 Nov: ABC: RCR Tomlinson collapse leaves contractors hundreds of thousands of dollars out of pocket, union warns
    By Lexy Hamilton-Smith
    ETU state secretary Peter Ong said hundreds of devastated contractors were calling him saying they were owed hundreds of thousands of dollars and were suffering financial hardship…
    Two labour hire companies that have laid off employees working on solar farms in north Queensland say they’re looking at redeployment options…
    Queensland’s energy minister Anthony Lynham said RCR’s administration was a Federal Government issue…
    Mr Lynham dismissed concerns RCR’s administration would undermine faith in new solar projects and called on McGrathNichol to ensure employees received all of their entitlements.
    ***”I’ve got 71 projects lined up wanting to come to Queensland, 71 renewable energy projects,” he said…

    Opposition Leader Deb Frecklington said the collapse was concerning.
    “The Palaszczuk Government have a lot to answer for. Here they are going into a head-long rush into renewables and things like this happen,” she said.
    Mr Ong (ETU) has asked both state and federal governments to “play more of a role in the renewable sector” to protect workers.
    “Certainly when they are undercutting other players in the industry by tens of millions of dollars on contracts that have very skinny margins as it is it is suicidal,” Mr Ong said.
    “Anyone with half a brain could see they were not going to deliver to those jobs and make any profit whatsoever.

    “They raised $100 million in capital a few weeks ago where the hell has that gone? Due diligence, where is the due diligence a board is suppose to show?”…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/rcr-tomlinson-administration-workers-and-projects-in-doubt/10547688

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  • #
    pat

    theirABC celebrates:

    VIDEO: 23 Nov: ABC: Port Augusta’s Northern Power Station chimney stack demolished by explosion
    Commissioned in 1985, the chimney has gone up in a cloud of dust, after it was demolished this morning about 8:00am, more than two years after the closure of the power station…

    PHOTO: Dust clouds rise from the explosion

    Locals lined the streets to watch it be brought down, with the stack slowly tipping and crashing to the ground, billowing dust hundreds of metres into the air.
    Children also stood beside the local highway with their parents to watch the spectacle on their way to school.
    ***”We’re moving away from coal and also in a place we’re going to solar,” one local said.
    “But at the same time we’re watching out there thinking we had relatives that worked out there. All their work’s just gone in seconds.”…

    It is the final major demolition planned for the site which closed in May 2016, resulting in about 400 workers to lose their jobs at both the power station and the associated Leigh Creek coal mine in the state’s Far North.
    Since the closure, the town has been plagued by health concerns associated with dust from the former power station site…

    A spokesperson for Flinders Power said there were “no complications” with the felling (EXCEPT FOR THE DUST?)…
    At the time of closure, its former operator Alinta Energy said the power station had become unviable…
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/port-augusta-power-station-chimney-stack-comes-down/10547202

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  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Note the name of the aircraft…..great to such innovation in use, pity about the name….
    How about a new name, like Boudica?

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/boeing-737-deployed-in-newcastle-to-fight-bushfire-world-first/10547636

    A Boeing 737 modified for use as a waterbomber has been used to fight bushfires for the first time, as the Rural Fire Service battles to save homes in the Newcastle area.

    The 737, known as Gaia, dropped several loads on two fires in the Hunter region yesterday, assisting firefighters on the ground.

    NSW Rural Fire Service spokesman Chris Garlick said the RFS was pleased with effectiveness of the plane, which can carry more than 15,000 litres of water or fire retardant in a single load.
    “It has been tested in other situations to demonstrate its effectiveness, but this is the first time in the world a 737 has been used to fight fires,” he said.”

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    • #
      Kinky Keith

      Steve,

      That’s the second major fire in that area of port Stephens in a year.

      One report said that one of the critical access roads was blocked by Fallen Trees.

      Criminal, life threatening, negligence.

      KK

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      • #
        John PAK

        KK, I frequently take a chain-saw along local fire-trails to keep them open so I could, if need be, gain fire-truck access. I sometimes take the timber home but that’s illegal apparently !

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      • #
        beowulf

        The Medowie/Campvale /Salt Ash area is virtually pure sand and grows little but bracken and impenetrable eucalypt scrub — a pyromaniac’s wet dream. 76% of it is locked up as part of the Tomago Sandbeds, comprised of State Conservation Area + RAAF base bombing range + Hunter Water catchment zone, and is effectively unmanaged bushland.

        Despite conflagrations there in recent years, there are still large tracts of it that haven’t burnt, in some cases for almost 60 years within my memory. I can recall Richardson Road on the way to the Bay as a youngster, driving along in what was almost a tunnel of trees in those days. Whilst there is no longer a tunnel due to road-widening, a lot of those same trees have never seen a fire in my lifetime. 60 years of unmanaged growth: just an inferno waiting to happen.

        Species like Flannel Flowers that were common between Grahamstown and Salt Ash in the early 70s have been choked out by flammable rubbish in order to “save the bush”. It’s a major koala habitat. Charred koalas are another price we have to pay for having rabid greenies in charge of fire management of our bush.

        72

    • #
      Another Ian

      OS

      Up till recently there were the last two Martin Mars seaplanes on fire duty in British Colombia.

      “Mighty Mars” FlyPast December 1989.

      6000 gallons a load on 15 minute cycles. (doesn’t specify US or imp.) Using US that is 24000l every 15 minute cycle.

      Article points out that land based planes have problems with cycle time – suggested by the “several loads that the 737 dropped in a day”

      However some of the operational requirements might be hard to meet in Oz.

      It needed 2 miles of water for unladen take-off, five miles laden. Methinks a shortage of such water here.

      Plus the problem of keeping the last two of the six total made in airworthy condition.

      40

      • #
        beowulf

        Choppers that can dunk a cyclone bucket into a nearby dam or backyard poor to refill don’t sound nearly as impressive as a 737, but can apply far more water over time right at the spots where it is needed most. A study found years ago that smaller choppers were dumping more water than the larger, more famous choppers. Their travel time is minimal; their manoeuvrability and bombing accuracy far greater than a plane which can only carpet-bomb. The 737 needs a major airport to conduct operations from, so its time away from the fire-ground is greater. It should be noted that the Williamtown RAAF base and Newcastle airport are literally right next to the Port Stephens fire, yet the 737 still couldn’t operate effectively. What’s fine for the US and Canada should not be misapplied here just because it works in North America.

        I’m sure the 737 would be great if we had lots of handy airports suited to jets, nice calm weather, and if our fires burnt in lovely straight lines suited to a jet aircraft water-bombing run. Added to that it’s probably a menace to all the choppers busily doing their jobs.

        31

    • #
      Peter C

      Should we even Fight the Fires?

      According to this Californian Fireman the best thing we could do is let them burn and just try to protect towns and properties. His idea is that forests should be patchy, not continuous. A whole lot of fuel load needs to be reduced and that means frequent burning.

      TED talk and only 14 minutes.

      https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_hessburg_why_wildfires_have_gotten_worse_and_what_we_can_do_about_it

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    • #
      beowulf

      Despite gushing reports from some sources, the plane GAIA played little part in fighting the Port Stephens fire on the 22nd and none at all on the 23rd because it could neither take off and land nor operate over the fire ground due to high winds. Its operations had to be abandoned. The only things flying were the choppers including the Erikson Air Crane.

      Forgive me my cynicism, but if a fire-fighting aircraft can’t be used during high-wind conditions which are common during bushfire outbreaks, what use is it and how do they justify its excessive cost other than as an expensive ornament and publicity stunt?

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  • #
    John PAK

    It’s a very windy cool day in the Blue Mtns (Sydney) and we’ve had a power outage. I’m assembling my own PV panels using cells from E-bay so I can charge some old deep cycle batteries that I’ve revamped using a fancy John Bedini type pulse charger. I’ll soon be able to have running water or keep a fridge cool during power-outages but I’d never ask my neighbour or you to help me pay for this project however my neighbour has some Govt scheme PV panels that you and I have been helping pay for via electricity bills and I object to that. People like me who cannot afford to get into a Govt scheme are expected to fund those who are definitely wealthy enough to purchase their own. To add insult to injury, I will never get anything back for my regular obligatory payments and will be expected to keep on funding panels for others ad infinitum. (Ironically my neighbour is complaining that he’s now getting bugger-all for his electrons too.)
    This is not the sort of Labour ideal that I was brought up with. In my youth it was a fair-for-all system where-as this is definitely removing money from everyone to fund the middle class. I do not want to pay but I’m powerless to stop it if I want to lead a normal Western life-style. If there were immediate and obvious benefits to society it might be justifiable but in my opinion it’s day-light robbery on a nationwide scale and adding batteries is just an additional level of theft.

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    • #
      John PAK

      I’d prefer we spent the electricity tax on building a pipeline from the tropical Queensland rivers southwards to the drought-prone agricultural regions in NSW where farmers are going broke for lack of water. With careful surveying the pipe could run level or slightly downhill all the way so require minimal pumping stations.
      While in Scotland recently I was looking at the Ordnance Survey maps to the north of Glasgow. The Victorians built a feed line to Glasgow that burrows through one mountain and then travels on a viaduct over a valley before entering another mountain and so on, running downhill all the way. In recent history Australia built the Snowy Hydro Scheme but to-day we seem incapable of planning fundamental infra-structure.

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Yes but think about when we do have long power outages, you have the skills to survive and thrive. Also research the basics of steam engines. Be super careful with boilers, you need to know what your doing.

      There is no difference betwern labor and liberal- they are all globalist owned and have sold us out to thier masters.

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    • #
      Peter C

      John,

      Can Old Batteries be restored? I see all this click bait on the internet, but I don’t follow up. Is it a myth?

      20

      • #
        John PAK

        Peter, generally speaking cars do not charge batteries at all well. After a few years the plates become sulphated-up which prevents full operation and it is difficult to undo. There are a few expensive pulse chargers on the market. Mine was designed by the late John Bedini, an American electronics wizz and I had to wait months for them to built it. It charges a series of capacitors which release into the battery in a planned sequence which takes up to a full day.

        I’m happy to share my experiences and limited knowledge if you are interested.

        20

        • #
          Bobl

          Yes, but it’s probably better just to remove the sulphate and refill the battery, it’s a pity they don’t make them repairable, (drop in new/cleaned plates).

          10

  • #
    philthegeek

    I see the Saltbush Club has a competitor already?? :)

    36

    • #
      AndyG55

      gruniad.

      FAKE NEWS.. the only news for phloop !!

      53

      • #
        Phillthegeek

        of course my precious petal, you could go click on this……if only it wasn’t fake news. :)

        33

        • #
          AndyG55

          poor phloop.. we are well aware that you and your ilk want to destroy Australia.

          23

        • #
          AndyG55

          Should also be noted that there is nothing on the Advance Australia site that is racist as the Gruniad fabricates in their own petty little minds.

          They are two different centrist organisations battling again different parts of the anti-human totalitarian yapping of the far-left agenda.

          Not competitors at all.

          33

        • #
          AndyG55

          Thanks for the link phloop.

          A group well worth supporting.

          “We believe in a free, democratic, western society founded on mainstream Australian values – values which have stood the test of time. “

          No wonder the Gruniad is so against them that they have to fabricate FAKE claims.

          They go against everything you and your ilk are trying to achieve.

          Just remember , phloop. no matter what the society, you will always be the dregs.

          23

    • #
      AndyG55

      Do you have any empirical evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2, yet. phloop?

      Or are you going to keep running and hiding like the headless chook you are.

      74

    • #
      AndyG55

      The poor old Gruniad Get-Up! troglodytes must be really SCARED to invent CRAP like that.

      Very POOR propaganda poop.

      Did you help, phloop ?

      54

  • #
    pat

    behind paywall:

    23 Nov: Australian: If you want a better future, stop swearing: Deputy PM’s clash with Adani protesters
    by RICHARD FERGUSON
    Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack has engaged in a fiery clash with anti-Adani mine protesters who hijacked his press conference today.

    The Deputy Prime Minister was in Coffs Harbour today to announce a new regional office for the Australian Maritime Safety Authority, but he could not be heard once the protesters appeared.

    Mr McCormack was ultimately silenced by the protesters but turned around and shouted at them when one of them called a reporter “a dickhead” for asking why they had brought children to protest…

    After a lull in shouting, Senator McKenzie took over the press conference but small children appeared in front of her and held up anti-Adani signs.

    Mr McCormack asked a young girl not to hold the sign near Senator McKenzie’s face, and continued arguing with an older protester…

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/if-you-want-a-better-future-stop-swearing-deputy-pms-clash-with-adani-protesters/news-story/ab4ba973e06a6194fadee20945810c10

    can’t see a video but:

    TWEET: Richard Ferguson, The Australian
    McCormack’s epic clash with anti-Adani protestors – “If you care about the future, stop swearing!” (video via ABC Coffs Coast
    23 Nov 2018
    https://twitter.com/RichAFerguson/status/1065801485039034368

    10

  • #
    dkp

    The irrational and unsubstantiated fear of climate change is certainly becoming a disaster as it has infected policy makers.

    70

  • #
    pat

    well worth a read:

    23 Nov: Daily Mail: RICHARD LITTLEJOHN: Stop these road protests clogging up London — call in the Chingford Skinhead
    All week, demonstrators have been descending on main road junctions and river crossings, staging sit-down protests aimed deliberately at causing gridlock. Tailbacks stretched for miles, from Tower Bridge to Heathrow…
    Commuters and taxi drivers accused the police of indulging the demonstrators. Scotland Yard even put out a statement advising people not to travel by car or motorbike, adding that ‘attempting to drive through protesters in the road is dangerous and illegal’.
    So is blocking the road. It is a criminal offence, punishable by a £50 fine. Not nearly enough, if you ask me. Surely the advance warnings should have been directed at those planning to cause as much chaos as possible — not at law-abiding motorists…

    How many people were late for work, how many children were late for school? How many important business meetings were cancelled? How many long-awaited GP and hospital appointments were missed? More to the point, what the hell was all this disruption supposed to achieve? We’re still none the wiser…

    The organisers say they want to put pressure on the Government to do more to tackle climate change. What, for instance? That’s the question LBC Radio’s Nick Ferrari put to one of the ringleaders, Roger Hallam, from an outfit calling itself Extinction Rebellion.

    What precisely should Britain do? Er, cut carbon emissions by 2025, Hallam said, accusing the Government of ‘criminal inaction’ to prevent the polar ice caps melting. Ferrari tried to pin him down on specifics. Did they want to ban cars, perhaps? Should everyone be forced to travel by bicycle?
    When Hallam declined to offer any solutions, Ferrari cut him off…READ ON
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6420089/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Stop-road-protests-clogging-London-call-Chingford-Skinhead.html?utm_campaign=Carbon%20Brief%20Daily%20Briefing&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Revue%20newsletter

    20

  • #
    pat

    the CAGW mob discover China ain’t the climate leader they told us it was!

    22 Nov: BBC: China-backed coal projects prompt climate change fears
    By David Shukman
    As levels of greenhouse gases reach a new record, concerns are growing about the role of China in global warming.
    For years, the increase in the number of Chinese coal-fired power stations has been criticised.
    Now environmental groups say China is also backing dozens of coal projects far beyond its borders…

    The Chinese-supported coal projects are under way or planned as far afield as South America, Africa, southeast Asia and the Balkans.
    Contracts and financing for these facilities are often not fully transparent but campaign groups including Bankwatch have tried to keep track.
    “You cannot be a world leader in curbing air pollution and at the same time the world’s biggest financier of overseas coal power plants,” the group’s energy coordinator Ioana Ciuta told the BBC…
    “By having China invest in over 60 countries along the Belt and Road Initiative, it’s perpetuating a source of pollution that has been demonstrated to be harmful not just to the climate but also to economies,” she said…

    In Serbia, one of the country’s largest coal-fired power stations is being expanded with the help of a loan from a Chinese bank and with the work being led by one of China’s largest construction companies.
    An hour’s drive east of the capital Belgrade, in the coal-rich Danube valley, construction has already started at the site, known as Kostolac B3…

    Christine Shearer is an analyst with the group CoalSwarm, which tracks coal developments, and she is scathing about the implications…
    She says that Chinese financial institutions are filling a gap left by Western banks and agencies deciding to limit their involvement in coal…

    Pera Markovic, a lawyer with Cekor, an environmental group, is critical of the company’s failure to limit pollution in the local area.
    But he concedes that Serbia is heavily dependent on coal for its power.
    For how long? “Decades,” Mr Markovic says.
    That’s likely to be the same in many other countries too, whatever climate scientists say is needed.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46310807

    30

  • #
    pat

    21 Nov: ClimateChangeNews: Polish government split over coal ahead of UN climate summit
    The energy minister has published a statement in defence of coal, which was swiftly disavowed by the presidency of the upcoming Cop24 climate negotiations
    By Megan Darby
    Krzysztof Tchórzewski’s ministry defended the country’s heavy reliance on the polluting fuel, in a statement published on Monday. In 2017, coal generated 78% of electricity.
    Yet a spokesperson for the Cop24 presidency, which sits in the environment ministry, said in a terse email that did not represent the Polish government position.
    The conservative Tchórzewski is already locked in dispute with the prime minister Mateusz Morawiecki over the government’s “war on smog”…

    While noting the potential of renewables, electric vehicles and nuclear, the statement maintained “clean coal” and “low-carbon” natural gas had a continued role.
    “The minister of energy is in favour of the evolutionary transformation of the power sector, instead of drastic restrictions on the use of fossil fuels,” it said, citing energy security and affordability concerns.
    Others see a greener future for Poland’s energy. Think-tank Forum Energii has mapped out four scenarios, ranging from maintaining coal dominance to 73% renewable power by 2050…

    ???A poll commissioned by Greenpeace Poland last year showed clean energy was popular, with 74% supporting a shift from coal to renewables…
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2018/11/21/polish-government-split-coal-ahead-un-climate-summit/

    30

  • #
    Dennis

    Mid North Coast of NSW this morning and 16C at 7.00 am.

    40

  • #
    Robber

    It’s going to be interesting watching the SA portion of the grid as more rooftop solar reduces grid demand in the middle of the day, while the peak demand at 6pm rises due to more air conditioning. Refer back to Jo’s blog on the duck curve.
    Yesterday (from AEMO daily demand chart) SA grid demand was about 800 MW around midday, but rose to 1400 MW at 8pm before dropping to 1050 MW at 4am. SA gas ramped up from 350 MW midday to 950 MW in the evening. These extremes will presumably get more severe as summer arrives. How much rooftop power can be fed into the grid while keeping the grid stable to avoid voltage and frequency issues at the local level or even localised blackouts?

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  • #
  • #
    Phillthegeek

    Galaxy Exit Poll VIC State 2 Party Preferred: ALP 55 L/NP 45 #vicvotes #auspol

    11

    • #
      AndyG55

      Enjoy Victoriazuela, phloop !

      You deserve it. :-)

      33

      • #
        Kinky Keith

        After what the libls did in S.A. when they won, maybe Victorians figured it would make no difference who was elected.
        :-)

        70

        • #
          AndyG55

          Going to be the same Federally.

          Morrison is taking the turnbull labor-lite leftist route at basically very point.

          Labor and Greens have all the leftist votes, so there’s none left for poor ScoMo.

          If he is so DUMB he can’t see that, then he doesn’t deserve to be elected.

          23

    • #
      Phillthegeek

      Hmmmm..have to dig out the thesaurus. Rout, Debacle, Shellacking, Catastrophic Boning of the RW ………

      Roll on the Federal election. :)

      22

      • #
        el gordo

        Infrastructure is the key to winning elections, Morrison has to promise a continental bullet train network.

        11

        • #
          Phillthegeek

          eg…promises have to be believable. And this is ScoMo the super duper ad man your talking about. :)

          “Where the bloody hell is the train!!” :)

          34

        • #
          AndyG55

          And all this infrastructure.. Built using COAL, GAS, Fossil FUELS

          And done, at great expense, by Union Labor.

          Many of DA’s and BS’s mates are going to get VERY, VERY rich out of this.

          The back-handers will be flowing like the Ganges!!

          53

        • #
          beowulf

          What is this fixation with VFTs? They have been a dead loss everywhere in the world except Japan with its short distances, very high population density and extremely high work-commuter rates.

          We need another unprofitable train like we need a hole in the head. I think there are far better priorities to borrow billions for. If you hand over your sovereignty I’m sure the Chinese will be happy to build you one.

          60

          • #
            el gordo

            ‘What is this fixation with VFTs?’

            The air corridor between Sydney and Melbourne is the busiest in the world and the American/Australian consortium are keen to build a VFT between those capitals. They have done their homework and applied due diligence.

            ‘We need another unprofitable train like we need a hole in the head.’

            Hmmm …. have you heard of public transport? Your attitude is precisely why the right are going to be routed at every stage and federal election into the foreseeable future.

            ‘I think there are far better priorities to borrow billions for.’

            Like what?

            ‘If you hand over your sovereignty I’m sure the Chinese will be happy to build you one.’

            We are a US vassal state and play deputy sheriff, so right there we could save $20 billion a year by becoming a vassal state of China. In the meantime the China infrastructure bank would be happy to lend on very reasonable terms.

            I’m assuming you are a rich and fatuous city dweller who doesn’t give a toss for people in the regions. To stop our young people migrating to capital cities and becoming battlers in an alien environment, we demand decentralisation, but if Morrison thinks the same as you and continues to sit on his hands, then it’ll be crash and burn for the conservatives for ever more.

            Democracy is wonderful, don’t you think?

            23

            • #
              Graeme No.3

              el gordo:

              The problem for the regions is that the VFT will run as fast as possible between the two destinations. Apart from any one off payments for land access there will be no benefit for the regions except the noise of passing trains.
              A bit like wind turbines, all for the convenience of the city dwellers and the disadvantages for those in the country.

              What ScoMo might do is rediscover decentralisation as a “solution” to crowded cities/ traffic etc. In Victoria Bendigo and Ballarat seem (to me) to be expanding, possibly because access to Melbourne is available. A little intelligent thinking about the needs – Oops! It will be the government involved so that is not possible.

              50

            • #
              beowulf

              Gordo
              Since you’ve laid the boot in, allow me to reciprocate. For starters I’m neither rich nor fatuous, and I’m a country dweller like yourself. I don’t live in your neck of the woods around Bathurst or Mudgee (forgive me I’ve forgotten exactly where you are).

              The reality of rail transport is that goods trains make money; passenger trains lose money; public transport loses money, and you want to saddle us with more billion dollar schemes to lose more taxpayer money. Even at full capacity, they lose money. Sydney commuter trains packed to the gunwales generate revenue of about 22% of their costs; the XPT fleet running Melb/Sydney/Bris only covers 30% of its costs (even with line costs defrayed by freight transport on the same lines) and a train will lose more money if it is carrying a huge debt burden from its construction. The exception to that is specialty tourist trains like the Ghan and the Indian Pacific which are not there to carry people from Point A to Point B, but to provide a moving platform from which to enjoy the view at a premium price. In both case the costs of line building/maintenance are heavily offset by high volume freight cartage on the same lines. Are you going to have bullet freight trains?

              Like I said previously, nowhere in the world except Japan have VFTs broken even, let alone run at a profit. They are a financial stone around the necks of every country that has one. The European VFTs travel congested air routes too and they lose money hand over fist. How is it that you think Australia will be different to the rest of the world? Wishful thinking won’t make a bullet train viable — let alone a “continental bullet train network” — God help us. You seem not to care that they would lose a pile of money for the taxpayer.

              The folks along the route of your VFT will also be thrilled to learn that their properties will be carved in half and some of their homes demolished for a folly. Have you ever tried to handle stock around / across a railway line? I’ll bet you haven’t. Sheep and cattle in all directions. It’s hard enough with normal trains; I hate to think what it would be like at VFT speeds. Your neighbours will curse you. All you’ll get at Bathurst is a blur, some noise and disruption to your lives. How does that help the regions? Bathurst/Orange/Mudgee/Gulgong will continue to be fly-over country. Just because some grasping consortium wants to build a train line does not mean it is good for the people along its route. This is not the wild west where a rail line opens up the prairies FFS.

              If as you say a private consortium is busting to build the VFT then let them put up their money or shut up. From your tone it would appear that they are waiting for a government handout to build their white elephant(s).

              The Right are not going to be routed because they didn’t build a bullet train network across the country. What a ludicrous claim. There is no clamouring for a bullet. They’ll be routed all right, but for a hundred other reasons, mostly revolving around the fact that they have failed in their basic responsibilities to the people and have been infested by the Left.

              And you’re happy to hand over Oz to a communist dictatorship with an atrocious human rights record are you? Well Gordo I think that says it all.

              70

              • #
                Annie

                Yes. No trains nearer than a good hour’s drive for us. Seymour for mainline and Lilydale for Metro. Shepparton is miles further away than those so a fat lot of use a VFT system would be. We are also ‘blessed’ with one bus down to the city pd…fat lot of use when we still have to get to a pick up point and would maybe come back with ‘stuff’. How are pensioners supposed to exist with that? There are far more important things to be done to make everyday life for the majority easier and more efficient.
                Dopey Dan might consider upgrading our appallingly badly surfaced narrow road which still retains the 100km limit despite being so dangerous. All his Melbourne tourists fly along it while towing massive boats and many, but not all, drive very selfishly. It’s far worse now than when we first came here…well, Dan?

                30

              • #
                el gordo

                Spare a thought for our grandchildren.

                China is a neo Fascist state and Communist only in name. I want to see a strong right wing government in Australia to keep them in check.

                ‘The Right are not going to be routed because they didn’t build a bullet train network across the country. What a ludicrous claim.’

                Bill and Penny want to sign up to the Belt and Road, so if Morrison would rather sit on his hands then the conservatives will be obliterated at the Federal election. At this point the Nats will most likely quit the Coalition, leaving the Liberals wandering in the political wilderness.

                I appreciate your concerns about stock, but this problem might be overcome with an elevated line in sensitive areas or strong fences to keep cattle and sheep away.

                ‘How does that help the regions?’

                New satellite cities and mass immigration will be a boon for the regions. By over coming the tyranny of distance the poorest electorates in Australia will finally get a voice.

                22

              • #
                AndyG55

                “which still retains the 100km limit despite being so dangerous”

                Sounds like my favourite kind of road :-)

                20

              • #
              • #
                Annie

                In a word, no.

                20

      • #
        AndyG55

        “Roll on the Federal election”

        Yep, Three left-wing parties to choose from… The joy !!

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        • #

          I can understand anyone being fed up with a decade of debt and Green Blob. Trouble is, there are people who are getting excited about a decade of doubling up on debt and Green Blob with Shorten and Sonya Plebiscite, the same mob who handed the country over to the globalist shonks and banksters. Not even Death Stare Bishop could shovel as much cash at the Clintons.

          Curiously, our next PM will be a social-climbing snob and try-hard who resents every moment of grimy contact with the mugs who vote for him. And the arch-cynic Shorten already couldn’t care less. The chips are already down in the globalist casino where resource-rich Australia can’t win. Labor’s Light on the Hill will be a low-watt Chinese LED running off a Chinese solar panel.

          73

          • #
            AndyG55

            In about another 30-50 years, many countries will be fighting wars of Independence from UN, EU or Chinese totalitarian tyranny.

            84

          • #
            AndyG55

            The really DUMB thing is that the Greens/Labor want this globalist totalitarianism,

            They also want to stop mining and using coal.

            News for y’all, petals..

            .. Its the darn coal and other minerals that the globalists want, (and control of society and everyone in it)

            Do you REALLY think they are going to stop mining the stuff !!!

            74

          • #

            Sorry, red-thumber. But Bill just doesn’t care if you live or you die. Remember the Thiess-AWU deal? Even the luvvie media couldn’t wear it. But certain very influential people realised Bill’s potential. And Bill has always realised the potential of very influential people.

            Calwell was the last to give a hoot (maybe). Your body now is a life-support system for a vote. And, really, it’s going to be much easier just to import the voters and let you Light-on-Hill types die out.

            No need to tell me how lamentable the Libs are. But I’d even vote for Death Stare Bishop to keep Shorten’s paw from the debt and migration taps.

            93

  • #
    Hanrahan

    A brilliant way to waste money maybe but a definite way to win an election.

    The election called an hour after polls close with a 4% swing to labor.

    30

  • #

    What KIND of batteries I wonder?
    If they propose to put lithium battery banks in thousands of homes, that will be… entertaining. Here’s an educational demonstration of some Tesla batteries doing their thing.
    http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ever-wondered-just-safe-electric-cars-are-like-tesla-for-instance/

    Or lead acid? Yes, let’s add thousands of tons of lead sulfide to our waste and recycling problems.

    Does their brilliant battery rebate plan allow for the subsidized replacement of the batteries when they die after a few years of use? Did they consider that there isn’t enough Lithium in the world to add batteries to every home? Aka ‘watch the price go through the roof’ when they try.

    One faint hope – if they proposed to massively fund the new Goodenough sodium-glass battery technology. But I bet these politician dunces have never heard of it.

    50

    • #
      AndyG55

      These “batteries” will only go to the elite virtue-seekers of the Green and Labor upper class.

      64

      • #
        AndyG55

        Sorry red thumb.. you will never be able to afford one. ! :-)

        64

      • #

        Comment@ WUWT ‘Tesla Battery, subsidy and sustainability fantasies 23;07/2017. George e Smith @ 12.44pm:

        ‘VA high end Tesla Model S has (evidently) a 70 KWh battery (read that in this morning’s SJ Murky News, front page story about Tesla ripping off California Taxpayers in the form of ludicrous California State subsidies for Tesla Car purchases.
        There are other problems. Batteries are commonly rated on the basis of their “20 hour rate”.
        That is the rated battery capacity that is advertised is measured at a constant discharge rate over 20 hours (and is discharged at that point). So a 100 Amp hour battery, which is a very common deep discharge 12 V lead acid battery used for electric trolling motors on small boats, is capable of delivering 5 Amps for 20 hours.
        Now of course, such a battery can deliver much more than 5 Amps, but the internal losses are an I^2.R consideration, So it won’t deliver 20 Amps for 5 hours, or 100 Amps for one hour.
        Car starter batteries are of course designed to deliver perhaps a couple of hundred amps for the few seconds it takes to start an IC engine in good condition at normal Temperatures.
        now that is lead acid technology, and Lithium Ion batteries are something else, but similar considerations apply. My camera Lithium batteries are less than two Amp hours, and with the supplied charger, they normally take three hours to charge from fully discharged.
        Now there are faster chargers, and I can charge my AA and AAA NiMH cells in about 30 minutes with a very high tech Temperature regulated fast charger.
        Elon Musk is putting “fast chargers” at strategic locations.
        No driver is going to put up with a three hour charge time putting out 25 KW to charge a 75 KWh Tesla battery. Well it would also have to put out more like 30 KW as the chemistry cycle is not 100% efficient. So I could drop into a Dennys, or a McDonalds for a quick half hour meal, while Musk’s “fast charger” is recharging my fictional Model S every 150 miles (I don’t own one).
        If you don’t believe that fast chargers wreak havoc on the number of charge discharge cycles you can get out of a rechargeable battery; I have a high speed train from nowhere to nowhere else, that I would like to sell you a piece of.
        I have an average of 6 years each on my three Subarus, and I fully expect them to be running properly after another six years.
        So what is the resale value of a six year old Tesla Model S with no taxpayer subsidy available to a potential buyer, and a six year old 75 (?) KWh battery that has enjoyed Elon’s fast chargers for those six years.
        The rest of the car, I would expect to be in good shape; but I wouldn’t bet on the battery.’

        00

  • #
    John PAK

    The Labour plan might be short-on Common Sense but I do see a problem with big central generators that waste coal by being kept fired-up all night to prevent contraction and expansion damage. The cheap “off peak” tariff encourages people to use more night-time electricity which is being produced even though most is not consumed. I run my garage freezer and fridge and I sometimes de-sulphate deep-cycle batteries and return them to 100% capacity. If I was keen I’d run my clothes washing machine and tumble drier between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. In effect I save the power station having to generate power for me during the day when the system is stretched.

    All this rubbish about installing solar PV and reducing green-house gasses by 10% by some given year in the future seems a long way round an issue when we could immediately transfer 10% of our present day-time household consumption to the “wasted” off-peak generation. Energy Australia (a Chinese owned company?) sent me a leaflet advertising this idea. It saves consumers money and saves them wasting all that coal (and unnecessarily “polluding the atmosphere with carbon” if that’s your religion).

    Pumping water uphill at night works well in Wales though lots of people at this site tried to bag the idea. When I lived near Llanberis in the early 80s a hugely expensive pump storage was being built inside the Dinorwig slate quarries but it paid for itself in about a dozen years. Au already has the perfect pump storage scheme sitting around idle much of the year.

    Common Sense departed years ago so I wonder who I can vote for ? Sco-Mo and Short-on both appear intent upon sabotaging the Au power system.

    10

    • #
      Chad

      John, if you check the NEM data, you will notice all the coal generating states never have enough coal power available. They keep those boilers going full blast all night.because they need the power !
      Vic and NSW have to import power overnight, whilst QLD has to keep max generation going to supply that shortfall in the other states.
      Obviously that will not change as more coal generators are shut down.
      Also, if you look at the experience of other countries/states with increasing % of solar etc, the point of low grid demand will move to daylight hours as more roof top solar displaces grid supply , creating a bigger problem of how to maintain enough thermal generation (coal or gas) to maintain supply for the am/pm peaks and overnight demand

      50

    • #
      Chad

      As for pumped hydro, yes it works and is about the best high capacity storage system available.
      BUT…. the issue is not its efficiency (80% at best) but the simple fact that even its large capacity is nowhere near enough to provide the ammount of storage a high RE generation system would need.
      Even the much lauded Snowy 2 with 350 GWh of storage ,2 GW of generation capacity…. is a toy compared to the 20-30 GW grid demand at any time

      40

  • #
    Craig Thomas

    The fact is that putting batteries onto the grid is very good for the grid and reduces price spikes and overall costs, so it is a bit bizarre to read this post which opposes a measure that will reduce our power prices.

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-battery-south-australia-cost-state-savings-2018-10

    “When back-up energy is called upon following a generator failure, it’s known as a Frequency Controlled Ancillary Service (FCAS).”
    “Soon after, AEMO revealed the cost of FCAS had fallen by 57% — around $33 million — just in the first quarter after it was switched on.”
    “The latest win came for French company Neoen, the owner of Hornsdale Power Reserve which houses the battery at its wind farm 220km north of Adelaide.
    Last week, Neoen confirmed to Stockhead it had made around $13 million revenue in just six months. Hornsdale cost Neoen about $91 million to build.”

    15

    • #
      robert rosicka

      When batteries can generate and store power at the same time and last longer in service than a few years they will become useful, until then they remain little more than a curiosity .

      72

      • #
        philthegeek

        batteries can generate and store power at the same time

        I think you misunderstand the fundamental nature of a battery.

        22

        • #
          AndyG55

          They DO NOT generate power. (except maybe the very first time they are used)

          Which is exactly what Robert is saying.

          You seem to NOT understand the fundamental nature of batteries, phloop.

          33

        • #
          Kinky Keith

          Deliberately misread, or perhaps just the real you showing through.

          11

      • #
        Gee Ayeeee

        Robert how about this for an idea.

        Let’s couple a battery, that is hamstrung by not being able to generate power, with something that can generate power that the battery can store.

        Imagine if the battery stored this power to be used at a time when the power source was not operational!

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        • #
          Kinky Keith

          And then imagine that the person using the battery for its useful life of 20 minutes has to work for three months to save enough to pay for the battery.

          It sounds a lot like Government, United Nations assault and battery.

          KK

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          • #

            When yr purpose is not to understand,
            (divine curiosity or need to problem solve)
            but to deflect, (political persuadicity,
            for populace control,) there’s no debate.

            30

        • #
          AndyG55

          Sorry, pure imagination, GeeUp!

          If the fantasy generator, let’s call it “wind” just for brevity, doesn’t blow for a while after the battery has been used.. It doesn’t recharge. OOPS

          Or should we use what little power it does produce in a lite breeze to charge the battery rather than providing power to the customers??

          Let’s attach it to your place and let you make the decision , shall we. GeeUp !

          33

    • #
      AndyG55

      “Tesla estimated that 30 to 40% of its services had been delivered in less than six seconds”

      That’s really going to work well in the next protracted wind/solar outage. ;-)

      No power was actually GENERATED in this story.

      The fact that this period was during a coolish summer and then autumn and winter when SA power requirements are low, doesn’t seem to have registered.

      I really hope they have a nice warm, windless summer this year. ;-)

      44

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Craig:

      any variable generation benefits from storage. But why are we rushing to install lots of variable renewables BEFORE the largest and cheapest storage scheme (Snowy 2) is available in 2024?

      30

      • #
        Craig Thomas

        It took Tesla 100 days to build his battery, and that battery is on track to recoup its costs in 3 years of operation.
        Another couple of those in each State would seem like a very good option.
        I’m all for our power prices to be reduced.

        24

        • #
          AndyG55

          Nothing but a transient stabilisation device.

          Needed to cover for the ERRATIC UNRELIABLE nature of wind and solar

          Is NOT a producer of electricity

          The fact it is operating more than expected is totally down to that intermittent supply.

          44

        • #
          Analitik

          You obviously have no idea of what FCAS is and how it differs from intermittency smoothing. The FCAS market is ideally suited to batteries as the power draw is relatively small and reaction time is at a premium. The Hornsdale battery is allowed to use 119 MWh out of its 129 MWh capacity for FCAS with only 10 MWh reserved for supporting the grid in the case of generation shortfall.

          This ties in with my assessment that the Hornsdale reserve is only intended to allow more time for controlled load shedding to avert a total gird collapse. The 6 minutes of reserved full output is totally inadequate for even smoothing the output of the Hornsdale windfarm when it experiences any meaningful lull. And lets not ignore the piddly 100 MW maximum output which is less than a third of the nameplate output of the Hornsdale windfarm alone.

          Try looking at the paper below
          https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/Media_Centre/2018/Initial-operation-of-the-Hornsdale-Power-Reserve.pdf

          40

          • #
            AndyG55

            “And lets not ignore the piddly 100 MW maximum output which is less than a third of the nameplate output of the Hornsdale windfarm alone.”

            So they are about evenly matched ;-)

            22

        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Elon recovered the costs on the day it was sold.

          And that’s all that counts.

          20

    • #
      Chad

      Craig,
      Maybe Aeon are making good money on their battey investment, ….
      …..but how much impact has it had on retail electricity prices in SA ??
      Also,Shortens $2000 battery subsidy is for domestic installations (behind the meter),.. Which have no effect on grid FCAS response.

      They are just vote buyers !

      20

      • #
        AndyG55

        “Shortens $2000 battery subsidy is for domestic installations “

        Add on the extra $10,000 plus needed to install.

        They are only for rich greenie virtue-seekers, at the expense of poorer people.

        The modern Labor way. !

        33

  • #
    Robber

    Ok, I apparently will need to buy some batteries, subsidized by “wealthy” governments, to protect my house from an unreliable and unaffordable solar and wind powered electricity grid. According to the Australian Energy Regulator, the average Vic household uses 4,900 kWhr of electricity per year. So if I want to cover my needs for 24 hours, that equals 13 kWhr of storage or about 12 car batteries. A Telsa power wall comes in 7 or 14 kWhr packs. They can deliver on average 5 or 10 kW, about 20-40 amps at 240 volts. Cost about $10,000 for the 14 kWhr pack before subsidy.
    A 5kW solar system can deliver an average 18 kWhr per day, about 26 kWhr/day in summer, 9 kWhr/day in winter. Cost about $10,000 before subsidy.
    So could I go off the grid? To allow for a week of winter cold and no sunshine, seems I would need 5-7 Tesla 14 kWhr packs.
    And I’m still a bit nervous about that 5kW solar panel – 7-8 kW would provide better security and ensure those batteries were charged for when I need them.
    Annual savings? Usage of 4,900 kWhr per year at 25 cents equals savings of $1,200 per year ($400 supply charge, $800 usage charge).
    Costs? Let’s say I spend $20,000 on panels and storage that last for 20 years. The depreciation alone of $1,000 per year just about wipes out my annual savings, leaving me $200 per year of net savings, or 1% return on my investment.
    Hmm, not quite enough to justify those solar panels and batteries. I need more government subsidies :-) :-)
    Alternatively, I am promised that the costs of panels and batteries are dropping rapidly, so perhaps I just wait a few more years?

    20

  • #
    Aussieute

    Late to this conversation but hey … better late than never.
    Follow this Twitter thread
    A clear explanation as to why the wonderful Tesla and various houses appear to spontaneously combust.

    https://twitter.com/realscientists/status/1065961969763737603?s=11

    00

  • #
    Andrew

    Check out this Twitter status.
    Raises some interesting and serious unintended consequences.

    As the saying goes … if you invent the ship you invent the shipwreck

    https://twitter.com/realscientists/status/1065961969763737603

    10

  • #
    Casey

    Typos.. hose = house, etc… I’m sure readers here are bright enough to work out what my fat fingers can’t type on the laptop keyboard.

    And to clarify, that “5 cities with around 1500 5-15 year o0ld girls raped EACH over 7-10 years” – the “each” refers to the cities, a total of around 8000 young girls have been raped or reported as raped.
    One worker tried to make reports to police over 200 times and was ignored until the story leaked onto internet news sites.

    82

  • #
  • #
    Me

    This was a correction to a previous post… but that original was not posted and now I look like some “electric fence licker”…

    20

  • #
    Rollo

    This is a reference to the Rotherham scandal in England which involved large numbers of young girls being ra*ed, beaten and trafficked by Pakistani men of a particular religious persuasion. Those in power allowed this to go on, with full knowledge of the events, as they did not want to appear culturally insensitive. One of the first whistle-blowers was reprimanded and sent for ethnicity and diversity training. Some of these men have been convicted, but the scandal is mostly about the fact that the ethnicity of the perpetrators was mentioned.

    Casey must have posted in the wrong blog, but the story is one we should be aware of.

    70

  • #
    Gee Ayeeee

    your fingers don’t press send before you proof read. If you send crap, it is you to blame not your fingers.

    00

  • #
    toorightmate

    KK,
    I agree, ??.

    51

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Bizarre and cryptic ! Must be a mate of Phil and Gerbil .

    32

  • #
    AndyG55

    wrong forum , perhaps ????

    67

  • #
    Casey

    As i said, posting as “me” up there:

    “This was a correction to a previous post… but that original was not posted and now I look like some “electric fence licker”…”

    I made a post, submitted it then saw some typos and other errors.

    I posted again to explain them but the original post didn’t get put up on this section.

    In essence – what I posted there was a correction to a post that didn’t happen.

    (In brief, it was about how this is all the aim of globalism; the bankrupting of the Western countries along with the “Islam invasion” to further destabilise things (hence the reference to Rotherham et al)

    I should have waited to see if the larger main post made it before doing the correction – this stupid site can kiss my ballsack.

    04

  • #
    Annie

    Yes, you are probably correct as to what Casey was posting. It was an appalling miscarriage of justice for all these young girls, all in the name of PC. I never was so ashamed of my native country as on the day, in late May this year, when T0mmy R0binson was incarcerated for daring to report, quietly and off court premises, about what I understood to be the sentencing trial of those ‘men’. That is, they had already been found guilty so he could not have been prejudicing the trial result. The judge and senior police officers were laughing at what seemed to be a set-up to get him (TR). This was done in the full knowledge that he would likely be beaten up or even murdered by a certain type of prisoner. His name was dirtied and the whole thing stank to High Heaven.

    101

  • #
    Annie

    Response to Rollo at #65

    21

  • #
    Annie

    That’s not nice Casey. I tried to explain what you probably meant.
    This is my favourite blog. It is not a stupid site. If you don’t like it you are free to go elsewhere but rudeness is not acceptable. Annie.
    BTW, I am not the red thumber you have.

    30

  • #
    Kinky Keith

    Perhaps it’s twisted and that’s why you’re being unpleasant.

    10

  • #
    Annie

    Answer to #74.

    10

  • #
    Casey

    It’s “stupid” in that it didn’t post my main, larger, comment yet allowed the small correction comment that ended up with me looking like an idiot. Of the main comment had been posted my correction would have been entirely understandable and logical.

    And… “rudeness”???? TO A WEBSITE?? What next, am I not allowed to say “stupid damn hammer” when it hits my thumb? The hammer is even sillier and it’d be my fault it hit me – the website not posting was entirely out of my hands.

    How the hell can you be rude to an inanimate object or construct?

    As for the red number – it’s OK, I don’t really pay much attention to “likes” and “dislikes”.
    I don’t live by the approvals/disapprovals of others.

    01

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Wots going on with the slight name change and no link to your “well read blog” ?

    00