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Both AGL, Origin warn renewables threaten grid, create chaos, drive off baseload, cause higher cost

Another Hazelwood-size batch of renewables coming on line in Australia by 2020.

Wind turbines

That’s 1600MW of random subsidized energy dropping into a market that is artificially priced to value weather-changing potential over reliability. Now, even the bosses of two gentailers which both benefit from renewables subsidies are warning things are chaotic, going to get turbulent and more expensive. Why do they admit this? Probably because they want the government to add another layer of policy interference to reward “firm capacity” which they both also own.

Instead, lets get the government and the RET octopus off our grid. Surely we can set up a market that allows players who want electricity at 9am tomorrow to pay more for generators which can actually guarantee to be there. All the market players who don’t care when or if electricity arrives can buy the unreliable energy. Which businesses, industries or homes can use electricity that arrives at midday and random other times, remembering that wind power drops to 5% of capacity for days sometimes:

Renewables threaten volatile power supply, says AGL, Origin bosses

Perry Williams, Matt Chambers, The Australian

Power giants AGL Energy and Origin Energy have raised concerns over a surge of wind and solar generation creating a new wave of volatility in Australia’s electricity grid due to a lack of firm capacity to back it up.

“I think there is increasing risk within the national electricity market because the lack of a good mechanism means the firming generation that’s needed is not being built as quickly as the renewable generation is being built,” AGL’s interim chief executive Brett Redman told The Australian.

“That does start to drive towards a lot of volatility in the market and volatility is the enemy of existing baseload generation.”

Solar Farm, photo.

Solar Farm, Canberra

Brett Redman — AGL’s interim chief –  says there is a risk things will get “choppy” in the next ten years:

“And choppiness or turbulence is a different way of saying higher cost.”

Origin Boss, Frank Calabria said $10b in new solar was already approved, which could be built in 18 months:

…this was a problem because it had not been coupled with a policy that recognised the intermittency of renewables, as recent problems in South Australia had illustrated.

Spot the contradiction, renewables are “low cost” but the turbulence they add brings “higher cost”. Our market is screwed:

“Lower-cost renewables tend to push the higher-cost sources of dispatchable power – coal and gas – out of the market early,” Mr Calabria said.

“Today, we see several markets where the prices are hollowing out, sometimes to zero, in the middle of the day …this is exactly what we say as a lead-up to (the closure) of ageing plant like Hazelwood and Northern.”

They want more government interference to compensate for too much government interference:

“Until the politicians realise that to get to those targets they need a firm firming capacity – and they are nowhere near that at the moment – the market will be in chaos and that’s where it’s at.”

 

Grid at Sunset on the road to Queanbeyan, Jo Nova 2018

Photos copyright Jo Nova 2018

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Both AGL, Origin warn renewables threaten grid, create chaos, drive off baseload, cause higher cost, 9.6 out of 10 based on 72 ratings

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111 comments to Both AGL, Origin warn renewables threaten grid, create chaos, drive off baseload, cause higher cost

  • #
    Ken Stewart

    Eventually the message will get through.

    Incidentally, Ian Plimer will be addressing a meeting in Rockhampton next Tuesday night (and I think Biloela as well) on power prices.

    181

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      AGL, Origin warn renewables threaten grid, create chaos, drive off baseload, cause higher cost

      AGL.

      Words fail me:

      AGL proudly operates some of the largest wind farms in the Southern Hemisphere. They are an important source of renewable energy and play a vital role in our generation portfolio.

      https://www.agl.com.au/about-agl/how-we-source-energy

      Can somebody please explain to me what AGL is saying?

      From where I stand AGL looks like a pack of carpet-baggers and spivs.

      270

    • #
      Anto

      Ken, I know that “eventually” the message will get through. Unfortunately the belief and momentum of CAGW belief has become so ingrained that I have little…err, “faith” that it will happen until we begin to experience regular load-shedding, permanent high prices and occasional system blacks.

      By which point, long-term damage to our economy will have been done.

      91

    • #
      Bushkid

      Any links to info etc., Anto? I’d love to hear hi speak, and those centres are actually within reach from here.

      00

  • #
    Analitik

    Gosh! Who da thunk?

    60

    • #
      Analitik

      Interestingly, the Grattan Institute, long time excuse makers for renewables industry and climate change scare-mongers, actually admit that the inherently intermittent nature of wind and solar energy WILL INCREASE WHOLESALE ELECTRICITY PRICING.

      the ‘intermittency’ of wind and solar energy will ultimately have to be paid for. This is not good news, but politicians should be honest with consumers about the harsh truth: higher wholesale electricity prices are the new normal

      The article also admits that the ‘low cost’ of renewable electricity is a function of subsidies

      subsidised renewable supply could put some downward pressure on prices

      http://apo.org.au/node/180661

      I wonder why Giles Parkinson didn’t blast this all over RenewEconomy?

      160

      • #
        Analitik

        Yet strangely, the media release didn’t mention either of these factors…

        https://grattan.edu.au/get-used-to-high-electricity-prices/

        100

        • #
          jpm

          Analitik
          That article is rather shallow and misses the point entirely. The RET is the main problem. Without it the electricity market would slowly return to the previous normal. The gaming mentioned would not occur as the renewables would have to play by the same rules as fossil fuel fired plants and the fossil-fueled generators would be able to run efficiently and have sufficient income to ensure proper maintenance. Renewables would have to guarantee supply and face penalties when they didn’t provide as contracted.
          Also he didn’t mention the subsidies (RECs) received and paid for by electricity users. That drives the retail price of electricity and the transmission infrastructure costs (renewables have to be connected to the users and that requires additional and beefed up cables.) up.
          The author blamed increases in fuel costs as the reason for high wholesale prices. In the case of coal that is not so. I have read that fuel costs for coal-fired power plants is down around 8% of costs. It would take considerable increase to really affect the wholesale price of coal generated electricity. The inefficient running as a result of renewables having first go no the grid (RET) is much, much more significant.
          Any article claiming to expound the reason for the high price of electricity in Australia that doesn’t even mention the RET and it’s effects is a con job!
          John

          30

      • #
        Analitik

        The full report. Not bad overall actually with a good description on page 16 of how the electricity market works (or is supposed to).

        As usual, the shortcomings of the renewables is largely glossed over and buried when mentioned by emphasis on how the market can be gamed more often when renewables aren’t able to generate.
        ZERO mention of the priority market access that lets them destroy the electricity market, too.

        https://grattan.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/905-Mostly-working.pdf

        120

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        So in effect, renewables are really price fixing through manipulation of supply….

        120

  • #

    Can anyone recommend a good generator for home?

    90

    • #

      Depends on how much you want to pay. Suggest do not get two stroke but diesel or petrol 4 stroke with battery start. You will need to run at least once per month. I think diesel can stand longer. Brother-law-law had a diesel motorhome. It stood without being run for about two years. Connected a new battery and it started first go.

      90

  • #
    pat

    sorry – but what is this guy saying?

    “Lower-cost renewables tend to push the higher-cost sources of dispatchable power – coal and gas – out of the market early,” Mr Calabria said

    150

    • #
      ivan

      I think he meant to say ‘Highly subsidised renewables tend to push the lower-cost sources of dispatchable power – coal and gas – out of the market early,’

      In other words the unreliables are a money making scam perpetrated on the general public to the advantage of the old boys ‘I’ll scratch your back if you scratch mine’ parliament ‘in group’.

      111

  • #
  • #
    pat

    10 Oct: AFR: Energy Summit: Industry must lead government on lowering power prices
    by Simon Evans
    Energy Minister Angus Taylor says the “big stick” he will wield to ensure energy companies reduce prices for businesses and households can be put away if the industry works with him on cutting prices.
    Mr Taylor said his preference is for industry to lead the drive to reduce energy costs and in particular what he views as excessive prices on many standing agreements with small businesses…

    He was also highly critical of industry modelling in the past on renewable energy being introduced into the energy system, saying the mistake that had been made “time and time again” was that baseload generation exited much quicker than those models anticipated.
    “When you layer [renewables] in, the baseload generation leaves faster than you expect”…

    (Mark Butler) said mismanagement of energy policy over the past decade had cost Australia dearly, with every other developed country around the world having a clear path to a transition to a much-more renewables focus energy system as technology advanced rapidly and renewables costs were lowered.
    “Every other developed economy is also undergoing this transition,” Mr Butler said.
    “Canberra, particularly under this government, have chosen the path of resistance”…READ ON
    https://www.afr.com/business/energy/energy-minister-angus-taylor-says-big-stick-gone-if-energy-firms-cut-prices-20181009-h16emw

    10

    • #
      truth

      Does butler actually not know that australia is the only first world country whose government [ and opposition] is demanding it make itself insecure…at risk of annihilation…100% dependent on 100% weather-dependent intermittents for our electricity supply and our survival…because…shock/horror… The earth warmed completely naturally for 20 years…a blip…then paused till now[ confirmed by ipcc and uk met??

      Every other first world country has the safety net of huge hydro and/or nuclear plus interconnectors to other countries that have those sources...even the us east coast states rely on interconnectors to canada's huge hydro.

      There is not one industrialized country in the world that's committing hari kari as australia is being forced by its government to do...not one ...we are out on this dangerous limb alone...unprecedented death wish....unprecedented harm perpetrated by a government on its people.

      Do butler and morrison...who was fully in the tank with turnbull on the coup[ bragged that he was discussing it with his great mate turnbull many months before the final cut]…and fully in the tank on turnbull’s transition….do they not know that former chief scientific adviser to the uk department of energy and climate change…..the late professor david mackay said ‘by ignoring simple arithmetic, the use of renewable energy to try to power a developed country is an “appalling delusion”’???

      Do they not know that aemo’s former boss said just before he died ..that the subsidies rush[inspired by turnbull's coup] could have only one outcome…’system collapse’….and just a few months later turnbull rushed to ratify paris to ensure infinitely more subsidies.

      Tony Abbott was right on this and just about everything else…and we need him now as never before.

      What a stupid vindictive country …to ditch the best…most courageous intelligent and prescient leader we’ve had in a generation or more…better than any other world leader..and then to try to force him into complete exile and purgatory.

      [Truth - please don't use ALL CAPS to yell at us. I've edited to remove them. - Jo]

      71

  • #

    So, when renewables ARE operating, the cost of power is high, and when renewables ARE NOT operating, the cost of power is high.

    I think I see a trend here.

    Tony.

    390

  • #

    Ah, the bitter moment when impulse buyers learn there are no free steak knives.

    140

  • #
    Zigmaster

    The reason we have issues is that renewables need base load support. If one builds the base load support to provide the 24/7 electricity if the wind isn’t blowing and its night time why do we then need renewables. Renewables can never be cheaper than base load . Cut out the middle man and not only scrap subsidies, scrap all existing renewables ( except where they supply off grid) and costs would plummet. The only thing that renewables can be relied on to contribute is substantial unreliability in the system.Ironically if one combined this with franking and or nuclear power those hapless greenies could reduce emissions as well and we would have a reliable system.

    192

  • #
    Graham Richards

    Just simply dump the subsidies & it’ll all go away surprisingly quickly. While there’s “sugar on the table” the flies will swarm! As far as Paris is concerned as soon as we pull out of it others will follow. Next will be Canada, after their next election which will see the demise of Trudeau.
    This nonsense is a huge distraction & government has many far more important issues to sort out.

    190

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Only way this will ever sort itself out will be by rolling blackouts because of a lack of sun and wind at a time of high consumption, if the Libs are in maybe it will surface that the reason was renewables maybe but if Labor /Greens are in the answer will be more renewables and big batteries .
    And yes have a generator handy because blind Freddy can see where this is heading .

    111

  • #
    TdeF

    Amazing! AGL is planning to close Liddell for lack of maintenance because they can force prices so much higher and make so much more money in a tight market and they are warning us of higher prices? It’s near criminal.

    270

    • #
      TdeF

      Plus all the massive cash from the RET, even if they do not sell wind power. When in history has someone been paid for making a product with no expectation of selling it? This is money we did not agree to pay for a product which is useless at a time we where we cannot use it and for an amount which is government dictated and exorbitant? The crime of the RET will be exposed. It is government legislated and enforced theft. Now we have to pay for storage of something which should not have been done. Has anyone stopped Snowy II? I am sure do nothing Morrison would stop nothing. When do we get a return on our $440million to Malcolm and Lucy’s friends?

      220

      • #
        TdeF

        AGL boasted that it bought Liddell for $0. Free.
        Now it won’t sell it for $250million. What is wrong that the government does not just take it back?
        Clearly it is worth more than $250Million for AGL to have the right to close it.
        As Malcolm Tunrbull said about the closure of Hazelwood, it was a private company matter. Absolute rubbish!
        The faux conservatives under Turnbull and now Morrison are worse than the Greens.

        190

      • #
        beowulf

        I’ve never been a Morrison fan. I regard him as a buffoon, but I was willing to suspend my condemnation of him until after the Wentworth by-election on Oct 20th. If Morrison still has a majority on Oct 21st, then on Monday Oct 22nd I expect to see some clearing of the decks; some action begin or at least hear him make the right noises. RET axed, Paris dumped & immigration slashed for starters. If this doesn’t happen then we will know for certain that we have been saddled with another total dud. He was after all Turnbull’s alternate choice — probably another of that man’s booby traps left for us.

        120

        • #
          TdeF

          Why would he do nothing just for Wentworth? Dumping the RET, Paris, fixing Liddell would win the election. Doing nothing leaves him competing as a shadow of Turnbull. He could lose Wentworth and have achieved exactly nothing.

          70

          • #
            Bushkid

            A one-seat majority in the House of Reps would be a bit of a limitation on any “courageous” moves to curtail the renewables gravy train when that same one-seat majority is in play with a by-election.

            10

        • #
          truth

          I agree.

          This blows wide open what the reviled conservatives [realists] knew all along .
          Turnbull’s [and Morrison's] NEG was always anything BUT TECHNOLOGY NEUTRAL….subsidies ANYTHING but GONE.

          Obviously the gentailers never believed the ‘tech neutral’ scam…they were counting on it NOT being neutral…and now they’re looking for the TPM trough ANYWAY.

          The NEG was a vehicle for subsidizing the props that intermittents MUST HAVE to get ANY sort of credibility…even if bogus…in the electricity generation racket….ie subsidies for batteries…pumped hydro…synchronous condensers etc.

          Now the gentailers are saying ‘cough up or the NEM gets it’…which conscious people knew all along.

          Turnbull/Morrison stole government in 2015 in order to create the position for Australian consumers where….in no time at all…. Turnbull’s gold rush of international carpetbaggers facilitated by Hillary’s preferred energy CZAR Zibelman …..would have Australia in a death grip….as Zibelman said many months ago…[paraphrased] RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

          How convenient that was for the global Socialists who this week have demanded Australia commit suicide as a first world prosperous industrialized nation by committing to foregoing EVERYTHING to do with coal…its use and the huge export income….ie to become completely weather-dependent for electricity…a recipe for annihilation for the ONLY first world country that’s without huge hydro or nuclear power …or interconnectors to other countries that have them…as safety nets.

          Morrison’s claim that Australia’s not giving up on coal-fired electricity’s a sham …because the intermittents rush is ONGOING …and the juggernaut is killing off coal whether Morrison & Taylor like it or not…because the favoring of intermittents for dispatch and therefore the relegation of coal plants to standby mode…. is killing coal plants ANYWAY…economically and physically.

          Such a situation will deter any new COAL build by OS investors…only the government that created the scam might take such a risk to buy itself cover with TPM …for a while.

          WHEN will ANY journalist ask …when the RE CULT brags that RE’s cheaper than coal…when will they ask ’Are you comparing the marginal cost there…or the FULL DELIVERED cost of intermittents with all the cost of props and frequency services added…with the delivered cost of coal-fired electricity that has ALL the services built in…ie apples with apples?’

          AGL [parent organization listed as STATE GRID CORPORATION OF CHINA] and ORIGIN [ foreign-owned] and ENERGY AUSTRALIA [ foreign-owned] want TPM so they can buy time so they can walk away with the dosh from an Australia in economic and social RUIN…..IMO.

          The UNIPCC’s demand of Australia is almost a declaration of war on this country…wars have been started on much less provocation….but as Hans-Werner Sinn proclaimed in his original GREEN PARADOX essay…the UN’s proposed ‘consumer cartel’ with its virtual FORCED APPROPRIATION of the fossil fuel reserves of resource countries…might precipitate military conflict….but he posited that such an eventuality was just the price that needed to be paid to ‘save the planet’.

          Not so convenient now though for Morrison who finds it’s he who has to unscramble the egg and find some way to save Australia from the economic apocalypse of energy insecurity and poverty…and national insecurity in face of a rapidly-worsening military situation.

          Not so convenient either for the gentailers morphing into international intermittent carpetbaggers…their TRANSITION interrupted by the loss of their internationalist champion with his pipeline of TPM they expected to have funnelled to them under cover of his NEG.

          50

    • #
      Analitik

      Give up on Liddell, already – the damage has been done.

      00

      • #
        beowulf

        Not quite. TdeF is right. AGL has been doing some major maintenance on Liddell over winter, just enough to keep it spinning for a couple more years. We all know that’s their plan, however there is nothing to stop it being given a proper makeover/upgrade with the will in the right places.

        It isn’t like Hazelwood where the thing has been gutted. Putting aside its aging generation plant, Liddell still has its building intact, its coal supply via miles of conveyors from surrounding mines, adjacent new mines with many years of life left in them, its water supply — Lake Liddell plus massive pipelines from the Hunter River, its power delivery infrastructure. If you spent a billion updating it you could get another 50 years out of it and increase its generating capacity into the bargain. It isn’t a write-off yet . . . if Morrison removes his digit very soon. On that front I don’t hold out hope.

        30

        • #
          Analitik

          Speak to the people who work there and you will find your plan isn’t viable.
          It would be cheaper to build a new station with current technology then try to refurbish Liddell.

          00

      • #
        yarpos

        The messaging out of AGL seems to have changed a little post Vesey, now if we can just send a couple more execs back to their home countries we might be haeding in a good direction.

        10

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Simple to fix really , just make a requirement that every Wind and Solar farm have to have a backup so power coming from the site is continuous at a rated amount and frequency .
    No govt handout for the backup required to ensure reliable supply .

    161

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Yep.

      A contract to supply is a contract to supply. No ifs. No buts.

      If you don’t meet your contract commitment you pay the penalty.

      Thus, you need to arrange back-up. Or take out insurance of another kind.

      What is it about contracts that governments don’t get?

      130

      • #
        theRealUniverse

        “What is it about contracts that governments don’t get?” The rules of contract dont apply to us (gov).

        70

      • #
        ivan

        You do realise the government is very reluctant to sue its members and supporters or impose penalties on their companies – follow the money.

        31

  • #
    WXcycles

    Just wondering, when is it their turn to pay us?

    50

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      You mean like payment for no service?

      Ask the Banking Royal Commission.

      Ask ANZ, NAB, Westpac. Ask the CBA. AMP.

      Shysters all.

      Energy companies need to be next on the list.

      80

  • #
    pat

    PM Morrison on Alan Jones show:
    Paris: when Australia signs up to something, puts its word to something, it means something. important to our partners in the Pacific.
    It’s not going to effect electricity prices. Angus Taylor has said that too. it’s not going to touch electricity prices, & it’s not going to touch one job.

    Paris talk begins around 7min15sec, halfway through the audio:

    AUDIO: 15min23secs: 8 Oct: 2GB: Alan Jones Show: Interview with PM Scott Morrison
    https://www.2gb.com/its-not-as-though-theyre-painting-it-on-there-pm-supports-opera-house-promotion/

    8 Oct: Guardian: Morrison says Australia won’t provide more money for global climate fund
    PM resists calls to withdraw from Paris agreement as energy minister claims Australia is ‘well on target’ for 26% emissions reduction
    by Paul Karp
    Earlier, Morrison told 2GB the Paris target of 26% emissions reduction was “not going to touch electricity prices” and “not going to touch one job”…
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/08/scott-morrison-resists-calls-to-withdraw-from-paris-climate-agreement

    60

    • #
      Graham Richards

      Mr Morrison had best realise he has a contract with the Australian electorate. At the first sign that he gives favour to a contract with the Pacific nations, the United Nations or anyone else the electorate are going to cancel his contract. The Australian electorate were not even consulted on signing up to that Paris Accord & we were lucky enough to second guess Turnbull/ Bishop on that UN immigration compact that would have sold us down the river in a matter of weeks.
      How many more little agreements have these treacherous bastards got tucked away waiting to spring them on the unsuspecting electorate??

      140

  • #
    John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

    I see the old age pension for a couple went up $6.20 a fortnight. No increase for the energy suppliment. That’s about 20 cents a day per person.

    70

  • #
    theRealUniverse

    “Lower-cost renewables ” is a contradiction in terms.

    100

  • #
    theRealUniverse

    Windmills are a blot on the landscape.
    Solar panel farms are a blot on the landscape.
    Both useless.
    Both very expensive. Return ZERO.

    131

    • #
      robert rosicka

      Just watching Paul Murray on sky and he held up a report from the World Health Organisation that links windfarms to health concerns .

      This is the second time I’ve heard of a report that identifies them as a problem to human health .

      71

  • #
    pat

    TWEET: Paul Barry, ABC Media Watch:
    8 Oct: Meanwhile, as per usual, The Australian’s lead story from Graham Lloyd is a PhD student who thinks the IPCC scientists are all wrong. #FFS (LINK AUSTRALIAN)

    reply: Ian Murray:
    …a PhD student with opaque links to the #IPA, #MRC, #SydneyInstitute, #HeartlandInstitute, #HeritageFoundation, #GlobalWarmingPolicyFoundation, #KochBrothers etc etc perchance?

    reply: Adam Rope (AGW is a Chines hoax)
    1/n Yeah, saw something this AM about the usual parade of unscientific fraudsters promoting it. Watts, Nova (https://twitter.com/tan123/status/1049013650969776130 …). Delingpole

    reply: Stephanos:
    Funny I would have thought you would have first thought is it accurate ?
    READ THE REST
    https://twitter.com/TheRealPBarry/status/1049207947539099651

    TWEET: Paul Barry, ABC Media Watch:
    10 Oct: Great. We’ve made worldwide headlines: ‘Australia defies climate warning to back coal’ #climatechange (LINK BBC)

    reply: Mark Gibson:
    Wrong headline. It should read – ‘Australia dumps IPCC Climate Fraud’.

    reply: Kevin Johnson:
    Yep, the Chinese will be the first to dump coal.

    reply: Sasha:
    Yeah. (LINK TO China is secretly building hundreds of new coal stations)
    READ THE REST
    https://twitter.com/TheRealPBarry/status/1049839328359153664

    presumably, Barry didn’t read ***these BBC bits!

    9 Oct: BBC: Australia defies climate warning to back coal
    ***In addition, China has restarted work at hundreds of coal-fired power stations, according to an analysis of satellite imagery.
    Meanwhile, China is reported to possess some 993 gigawatts of coal power capacity, although the approved new plants would increase this by 25%…
    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45798643

    20

  • #
    pat

    comment in moderaton re Paul Barry/ABC Media Watch CAGW tweets.

    one reply was accidentally shortened. should read:

    reply: Adam Rope (AGW is a Chines hoax)
    1/n Yeah, saw something this AM about the usual parade of unscientific fraudsters promoting it. Watts, Nova (https://twitter.com/tan123/status/1049013650969776130 …). Delingpole https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/10/07/damning-audit-climate-change-scare-based-on-unreliable-data/ … According to them incorrectly spelt names means all AGW science is wrong.
    https://twitter.com/TheRealPBarry/status/1049207947539099651

    10

    • #
      Serp

      It’s extraordinary that Paul Barry is oblivious to the opinions of my ilk who regard his views to be asinine. I guess, in the immediate future before the US midterm elections, the Alphabet Junta will shutdown Watts, Nova, Breitbart, GWPF and &c eliminating any likelihood of his widening his horizon. Lord knows where I’ll be able to vent thereafter…

      10

  • #
    Kinky Keith

    I have an intense dislike for reading this type of report.

    It reminds me that we have politicians running our electricity system and that they appear to have no intention of discouraging the highly subsidised renewables format which has pushed most of our farming and heavy industry to the point of collapse.

    What may not be as obvious is that small businesses from corner stores to accountancy and legal practices are also in deep and find the high power bills of recent times alarming.

    I have not heard one politician comment on this situation let alone offer to do anything.

    Before leaving, I believe it was our President Trumble who devised what was the ultimate insult to electricity users; ie All Australians.

    He had a special hot line set up so you could ring and find out the supplier giving the best discount on that day.
    This is Australia folks and you’re deep in it.

    AGL knows that a little bit of Newables is O.K., they can make a packet.

    They also know that when everyone and his uncle gets in on the scam the whole thing will collapse.

    Where is our new P.M.?

    Missing.

    KK

    120

  • #
    Mark M

    Two of Australia’s biggest solar farms set for NSW, as market operator looks at how to manage power grid

    “Energy Networks Australia chief executive Andrew Dillon said the transition away from coal to wind and solar posed challenges to the energy market.

    “Unless you’re putting these new-generation sources in exactly the same spot as the old coal-fired power stations, then the way the grid works is going to have to change,” he said.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-10/two-of-australias-biggest-solar-farms-set-for-balranald/10359110

    40

    • #
      yarpos

      ““Energy Networks Australia chief executive Andrew Dillon said the transition away from coal to wind and solar posed challenges to the energy market.”

      Complete BS statement. If you want to have a 1st world life the there is no transition, there can be no transition, it does not work at scale, its game playing and subsidy mining.

      10

  • #
    Robber

    When the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing, we need 120% capacity (allowing for contingencies) from guaranteed reliable generators – coal, gas and hydro – to meet peak evening demand. But then, when solar and wind are supplying, those reliable generators must be curtailed. So we have invested twice to meet demand. Ergo, higher prices. We could switch off all those solar panels and windmills and have cheaper electricity.

    210

  • #
    TdeF

    What I cannot abide is the ongoing idea that the politicians do not know why energy prices are so high? The fake concern about prices, the impact on the poor, the impact on every aspect of our lives. Woe is us cry the politicians. It is outside out control. Privatisation. Opportunism. Evil big business.

    When all along it is the politicians themselves who have done this while they plead for prices to go down.

    If Liddell is worth more to close than to stay open, it is all deceit.

    Get rid of the RET and government legislation dictating payments to strangers overseas for nothing an prices will plummet. Let so called renewables compete. They have had billions and billions of our cash.

    If Liddell is worth more to close than to stay open, the situation is ridiculous.

    Will someone please tell me that Snowy II has been stopped?

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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      What I cannot abide is the ongoing idea that the politicians do not know why energy prices are so high?

      I’m not so sure the average politician has the knowledge and experience to understand why energy prices are so high. If they could drop the political agenda and pay attention to the engineers who do understand then their eyes would be opened for them. But I see more than 1 politician in this country making a fool of himself with off the wall arguments or explanations of too many different things to believe they’re all able to understand on their own.

      Some, maybe. But not nearly all. Politics is about power and leaves little incentive to learn about the engineering aspects of power. It’s too easy to follow advice that’s good for the party line, votes or the voter base and not bother with being informed.

      Of course, if you argue that they want the price to keep going up then of course they know why. :-)

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        I should have said, “…to learn about the engineering aspects of electricity. It’s too easy…” Otherwise the sentence is a little ambiguous.

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        • #
          TdeF

          Roy, everything was fine. We had State based electricity. In 2000, Canberra decided to take control and passed a law to penalize ‘fossil fuels’. It was their first foray.

          Now they have created a useless ‘grid’ in a country as big as the US but with 1/15th of the population, 90% in a few cities. The ‘grid’ makes no economic sense but as an excuse for Federal control of energy.

          The same intervention occurred with telephones with a National obligatory network run by the Federal government overriding all private systems. All a blatant grab at power over communications too. All off balance sheet so we the public cannot see the costs. Public servants playing as private entrepreneurs with our money. It has to end in tears.

          Of course prices went through the roof. WIndmills. Solar panels. All funded through hidden loading on our electricity bills and no one was supposed to notice? The average Federal politician knows perfectly well they have created these monsters, the grid and the NBN. They have hidden all the costs and they alone are responsible. All for the greater good, of the Federal politicians.

          So the conservatives privatized all the State public utilities, telephones and electricity. Then they passed laws to shackle these companies and control prices and National agendas. It’s all about control by politicians.
          As for our former Prime Minister deciding on a $12Bn project to pump water uphill using windmills, it has not even been costed.

          No one is ignorant of this. It is all a blame game. Repeal the RET and the game is over. Sell the NBN, ABC/SBS and all the other ripoffs. No good has come of all this public intervention just so Federal politicians have more power.

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          • #
            Roy Hogue

            TdeF,

            I think inadvertently you have shot down some of the strength of your argument because being state run probably made it as easy as possible for politicians to meddle with it. I’ll tell you a case study from actual experience. Since the early in the 20th century, Los Angeles had its Department of Water and Power (DWP). I’m sure it made sense then. But now LA city government has realized that DWP is a cash cow they can milk for money.

            I worked 17 years for a small company founder who lived in LA. He and I could compare the price of a kWh and his was astronomical compared to mine from Edison. I wish I had written down the numbers but I didn’t and memory loses such small things too easily.

            Because DWP is a city owned utility they are not subject to regulation by the California Public Utilities Commission and can still do whatever they can get away with. Edison can also do that to some extent but not like DWP. The situation from when I retired is now distorted by California’s current trend toward a 3rd world pretend republic and I’m no longer in contact with what’s going on in LA so I can’t comment on today’s situation.

            I don’t know government in Australia very well and I have no incentive to believe your assertion isn’t true. It did work well. But the basic politician we all have to cope with is the same everywhere and they have incentives of all kinds to do things harmful to their constituents. And of course, even a privately owned utility like Southern California Edison can be messed around with by heavy handed government.

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          • #
            yarpos

            They succeded in making a simple system (State based energy generation) with direct and tight feedback to decision makers , into an impenetrable mess of “agencies” that think they have a say (and be funded), overlayed with Fed politics, overlayed with international posturing and subsidy farming and with infinite possibilities for finger pointing.

            Little wonder we are where we are. Chaos and expense by design.

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    • #
      Analitik

      Liddell == walking dead

      Move on

      00

  • #
    TdeF

    Why not just stop the spending of the $440 million, until a real case is made for urgent cash. Put it back in our pockets until someone can explain why anyone needs so much cash urgently? Malcolm gave and Morrison can take back.
    It’s our money. Get it back.

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  • #
    John Watt

    As in all such issues unbiased discussion of “facts” facilitates making the best decision. Unfortunately just about everyone in a position of influence in Oz has a biased barrow to push when it comes to energy:
    –Make a profit
    –Win an election
    –Feel good because you are “saving the planet”
    –etc,etc
    There are clearly edge-of-grid locations where solar/diesel/battery installations are cheaper/more reliable than traditional methods. However the vast majority of customers are worse off under current energy industry policies and structures. Some possible reasons:
    –Misguided “sales” of Govt owned power stations
    –Lack of competition between producers
    –Ineffective retail market
    –Government siphoning off energy profits for other government activities..nothing new here but potentially damaging to any chance of delivering “market driven” prices to customers.

    All in all we have developed the role model for stuffing up a world class industry.

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  • #
    Antoine D'Arche

    so we had Turnbull and Vesey a couple of months ago, and renewables were king, the answer, green light and all that and no problem of any kind,and we’ll can Lidell and no you can’t buy it.
    No we have Morrison and Redman and we need coal, must keep it, the new UN report isn’t for us, and BTW renewables are bad for the grid and must be balanced with baseload power oh and renewables make power expensive.
    Bet you $1 AGL will next come out and say either they’re keeping Lidell and will keep it running, or they’ll offer to sell it to someone else for them to run.

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  • #
    Marco

    New solar is cheaper than new coal. That’s why they do it. It’s all about money!

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    • #
      Kinky Keith

      Just one small comment on your claim. Scale.

      Another: functionality.

      Another; nighttime.

      Another: working life.

      With all of those factors acting in the Negative for Solar Electricity it is a longway off being competitive with Coal fired generators.

      Routine approximations, solar makes these unreliable, indicate that solar is 7 times more expensive, when it’s operating.

      KK

      KK

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    • #
      Robber

      So Marco, you only want electricity when the sun is shining? Why, you can go off grid. And then please submit your report. Good luck with that.

      30

    • #
      Analitik

      Cheaper TO DEPLOY != cheaper to supply power over the period of a year.

      But yes, that is the argument used by the simpletonsgreenies for building these “farms”. And aside from being non-dispatchable and intermittent, they never factor in the high maintenance costs to keep the panels clean, area clear of vegetation, trackers working (if the farm is that sophisticated)

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    • #
      yarpos

      Cheaper in the sense that you can segment it into small projects the average competent junior engineer can execute. Team that person up with a snake oil specialist to extract grants, subsidies , REC sales, and maybe even sleaze money from the local community and there you have it. In terms of providing power for a 1st world grid , completely useless but in itself a nice little earner.

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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Interestingly, the finding that wind farms actually raise the temperature is getting some attention. I was sitting in my doctor’s waiting room Monday trying not to notice one of those medical advice TVs across from me — you know the ones… …stuff all sponsored by drug companies for the most part. But a random selection of news was running across the bottom. One item caught my attention. It was announcing the finding that wind farms aggressively being pushed forward in the United States would raise the temperature, not lower it.

    I was probably the only one there who was looking at the blasted thing and anyone sitting in a doctor’s waiting room probably has other things on their mind and wouldn’t remember a one line announcement of great significance. But someone did think it was newsworthy. Too bad it wasn’t on CNN and MSNBC along with a good debate on the merit, not that very many people will pay attention to such a debate in the first place.

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    • #
      Kinky Keith

      Many jobs in Australia are now in jeopardy with business operating costs rising because of the electricity mess.

      Small business is in crisis where it becomes more sensible to fold up shop and go for unemployment benefits.

      KK

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        KK,

        Sadly, you’re describing a sinking ship. And no one is bailing out the water or trying to patch the hull. I keep wondering how deep the water under everyone’s feet needs to get before enough voters wake up. At some point the water will be above everyone’s head and then it will be of no benefit for anyone to start throwing water over the side because the ship will be on the bottom.

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        • #
          Roy Hogue

          There is a big exodus from California going on now. And by far the majority of those leaving are middle class families like my son’s. Other states may not be perfect but imperfect beats California any day.

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          • #
            Kinky Keith

            Reality, if you aren’t a high paid actor, can sometimes be tough.

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            • #
              Roy Hogue

              It’s not just the high paid actors but those in politics who, for whatever reason, cater to the elite in the upper class who cause reality to be so hard for the little guy working hard to be responsible and provide for himself and his family.

              I was born into a household about as poor as you could get without being homeless and hungry — end of the depression and times had been tough for a long time by then. But I decided I would make something of myself and I worked at doing that. I never expected anyone to pay my way for me anywhere. I was always willing to pay my own way, transportation, housing, everything. I haven’t made myself rich by any means but what I do have keeps me comfortable and solvent. And I have a big incentive to protect what I have from someone who sees me as a source of money to fund his free ride or his rise in politics.

              And being in the position I’ve been in for most of my life has given me another incentive. I actually watch what’s hapening in society and try to figure out what works and what doesn’t. And more and more government programs, regulations and higher taxes is something I know doesn’t work. Now if I could just convince Governor Brown and the legislature. But they refuse my advice. Actually someone much lower than their level refuses my advice before it can ever get to those who most need to hear it. The ability of a Republican vote to make a difference has been systematically stomped into the ground. My choice for senator to represent California for the next 6 years is between two Democrats with not even a possibility to write in my choice. It’s a fixed fight and I lose.

              Life is what it is and we all must play the hand we’re dealt. Some do it more wisely than others and the sad truth is that I hear the word wisdom so seldom now that you would think it doesn’t exist. You gotta be smart but you apparently don’t need that which makes smart worth having.

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              • #
                yarpos

                First visited there in 1976, at which time I thought it was close to Nirvana. Been sad to see the decline. Even at my most pessimistic around 2000, I had no clue how bad it would really get.

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  • #
    pat

    given the enabling role of the MSM in getting us into this mess, perhaps it’s worthwhile noting:

    9 Oct: Breitbart: ‘THE GOOD CENSOR’: Leaked Google Briefing Admits Abandonment of Free Speech for ‘Safety And Civility’
    by Allum Bokhari
    An internal company briefing produced by Google and leaked exclusively to Breitbart News argues that due to a variety of factors, including the election of President Trump, the “American tradition” of free speech on the internet is no longer viable…

    But the 85-page briefing, titled “The Good Censor,” admits that Google and other tech platforms now “control the majority of online conversations” and have undertaken a “shift towards censorship” in response to unwelcome political events around the world.
    Examples cited in the document include the 2016 election and the rise of Alternative for Deutschland (AfD) in Germany.

    Responding to the leak, an official Google source said the document should be considered internal research, and not an official company position.
    The briefing labels the ideal of unfettered free speech on the internet a “utopian narrative” that has been “undermined” by recent global events as well as “bad behavior” on the part of users. It can be read in full below…

    According to the briefing itself, it was the product of an extensive process involving “several layers of research,” including expert interviews with MIT Tech Review editor-in-chief Jason Pontin, Atlantic staff writer Franklin Foer, and academic Kalev Leetaru. 35 cultural observers and 7 cultural leaders from seven countries on five continents were also consulted to produce it…

    The document also bemoans that the internet allows “have a go commenters” (in other words, ordinary people) to compete on a level playing field with “authoritative sources” like the New York Times. Google-owned YouTube now promotes so-called “authoritative sources” in its algorithm. The company did not specifically name which sources it would promote…
    https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/10/09/the-good-censor-leaked-google-briefing-admits-abandonment-of-free-speech-for-safety-and-civility/

    9 Oct: Newsbusters: Rich Noyes: Study: Economic Boom Largely Ignored as TV’s Trump Coverage Hits 92% Negative
    In four weeks, Americans go to the polls for the midterm elections that the news media are casting as a referendum on the Trump presidency. Over the summer, the broadcast networks have continued to pound Donald Trump and his team with the most hostile coverage of a President in TV news history — 92 percent negative, vs. just eight percent positive…READ ON
    https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/rich-noyes/2018/10/09/study-econ-boom-ignored-tv-trump-coverage-hits-92-percent-negative

    not as bad as this:

    18 Apr 2016: NBC: AP: Bad News: Just 6 Percent of People Say They Trust the Media
    Just 6 percent of people say they have a lot of confidence in the media, putting the news industry about equal to Congress and well below the public’s view of other institutions…

    but bad, nonetheless:

    9 Oct: CNS News: Gallup: Only 20% Have ‘Great Deal/Quite a Lot’ of Confidence in TV News; 11% in Congress
    By Michael W. Chapman
    In its annual survey on “Confidence in Institutions,” Gallup found that only 20% of Americans had a “great deal/quite a lot” of confidence in television news and only 23% had such confidence in newspapers…
    https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/survey-only-20-americans-have-great-deal-confidence-tv-news

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  • #
    pat

    without a hint of irony, these two “stories” are next to each other on the ABC “Just In” page:

    headline on ABC “Just In” page:

    ‘Let’s pretend this is WWIII’: Richard Branson hits out at Australia over climate change

    changed to:

    10 Oct: ABC: Richard Branson criticises Australia over climate change, says coal ‘should be a thing of the past’
    7.30 By Lauren Day and Gus Goswell
    Billionaire Sir Richard Branson has likened climate change to World War III and criticised the Australian Government for failing to do more to curb rising greenhouse gas emissions.
    The Virgin founder said he is testing new recycled aviation fuel to be used in his planes but that governments needed to do more too.
    “It’s going to need the world to take this problem very very seriously,” he told 7.30.
    “Let’s pretend this is World War III…

    “I think (the Australian Government) needs to do a lot more and coal is definitely, I’m afraid, something that should be a thing of the past.”…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-10/richard-branson-climate-change-hits-out-at-australia/10361330

    10 Oct: ABC: Spring storms can hit without warning, so why are they so hard to forecast?
    By Irena Ceranic
    Perth experienced one of its wildest weather swings seen this year yesterday, when the first 30-degree day of spring gave way within the hour to heavy downpours and a spectacular lightning display.
    The wild weather was hard even for weather experts to predict, with the Bureau of Meteorology still forecasting the chance of rain at just 20 per cent half an hour before the storm hit.
    When it did develop, the late afternoon thunderstorm rolled in from the north and brought heavy isolated showers, hail, gusty winds and a spectacular lightning display with 8900 strikes recorded.
    The rapidly changing weather forced the BOM to update Perth’s forecast four times during the day instead of the usual two at 4:30am and 4:30pm…

    So why are these spring storms tricky to predict?…
    BOM spokesman Neil Bennett: “One of the major features that we have with this change in the weather pattern from the winter pattern of widespread frontal rain, moving into this more convective rainfall — where you have individual shower clouds and indeed thunderstorm clouds producing pockets of rain rather than widespread areas of rain — trying to predict exactly where that rain is going to fall is a little bit harder than the broader areas of the cold front.
    “We’re looking at individual clouds — on occasions only 5 or maybe even 10 kilometres wide — and to pinpoint exactly where they’re going to form and where they’re going to run to even 6 or 7 hours ahead of time is difficult, so really we have to wait until they’ve actually formed.”…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-10/why-are-perth-spring-storms-so-hard-to-forecast/10360628

    shut down the ABC.

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    • #
      Jonesy

      Look out the window, look at the data coming back from the morning radiosonde…vertical instability doesnt suddenly happen. These guys spend too much time and money feeding supercomputers and have forgotten how to forecast.

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    • #
      Chad

      I used to respect Branson for his abilities to build successful business out of dire situations.
      But now i am puzzeled how such an apparently smart guy can think Australia is in any way influential in the Climate situation ?
      Its bad enough that he seems alligned to CAGW, but if he is really concerned , why isnt he focussing on China , India, USA, etc which would be much more influential. ?

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      • #
        Chad

        And…..
        WTF is “recycled”. Aviation fuel ??
        How does that work ? …..how do you recycle fuel ?
        Someone should ask Branson why Virgin has not been using the “green” aviation biofuel that has been available for 10 yrs or so ?
        …….i wonder if it was something to do with cost and profitability ???

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  • #
    pat

    10 Oct: ClimateChangeNews: World Bank branch to prefer private banks that exit coal
    International Finance Corporation will require partners to publish their support for coal and seek those with plans to divest
    By Megan Darby
    Commercial banks with big coal investments risk being overlooked for World Bank money, a key official announced on Monday.
    Its International Finance Corporation (IFC) will “proactively seek” clients committed to moving away from coal. Any client that continues to invest in coal will be required to publicly disclose the value of their stakes.
    That was the strategy IFC chief Philippe Le Houérou outlined in an article for Devex (LINK) as the bank held its annual meeting in Bali, Indonesia.
    “I believe that IFC and other development finance institutions must move urgently with new ideas to preserve our planet,” he wrote. “We have no choice but to be bold.”…

    Helena Wright, senior policy advisor at think-tank E3G, welcomed the further shift in strategy. “This is a great step for climate action,” she said. “Since IFC’s indirect lending reaches around 125 countries,  this is a far-reaching issue with major implications.”…

    ***Coal plants have traditionally been seen as the cheap and easy option, but they are polluting and can run for 40 years…

    Wright’s colleague Claire Healy added: “Shifting financial flows from coal to clean forms of energy is a top priority in climate diplomacy; and will also provide many benefits in terms of air quality, health and energy security.”
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2018/10/10/world-bank-branch-prefer-private-banks-exiting-coal/

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    pat

    nothing else whatsoever to read in the following:

    10 Oct: Daily Mail: Trump says he’ll ‘absolutely’ review damning UN global warming report – but remains skeptical about its authors
    •’It was given to me and I want to look at who drew it, which group drew it,’ Trump told reporters as he left for an Iowa campaign rally
    • ‘Because I can give you reports that are fabulous and I can give you reports that aren’t so good,’ he said. ‘But I’ll be looking at it, absolutely’
    By AFP and Hannah Parry
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6258317/Trump-questions-UN-global-warming-report.html

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  • #
    pat

    behind paywall:

    10 Oct: UK Times: Let’s stop kidding ourselves about politics
    by Daniel Finkelstein
    From Kavanaugh to climate change, we keep ignoring the facts when they lead us towards solutions we don’t like
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/let-s-stop-kidding-ourselves-about-politics-3566vsgqj

    the writer:

    Daniel William Finkelstein, Baron Finkelstein, OBE is a British journalist and politician. He is a former executive editor of The Times, remains a weekly political columnist, and is now associate editor. He is a former chairman of Policy Exchange who was succeeded by David Frum in 2014. He was elevated to the House of Lords in August 2013, sitting as a Conservative. – Wikipedia
    He was educated at University College School, the London School of Economics (BSc, 1984) and City University London (MSc, 1986)…
    Between 1981 and 1990 Daniel Finkelstein was a member of the SDP, becoming Chair of the Young Social Democrats on the defection of his predecessor Keith Toussaint to the Conservative Party during the 1983 general election campaign…
    Before working for the Conservative Party, Daniel Finkelstein was Director of the think tank the Social Market Foundation for three years…
    Finkelstein was given an honorary Doctor of Science degree by City University London in 2011…

    utterly disgraceful:

    CarbonBrief: “I want to talk to you about climate change, Brexit, Jeremy Corbyn and fake news,” writes Daniel Finkelstein, weekly political columnist for the Times.
    Finkelstein links the fact that Republicans overwhelmingly believed Brett Kavanaugh when he argued he had not
    assaulted Christine Blasey Ford.
    “It’s tempting but wrong to dismiss this as nothing more than political tribalism, writes Finkelstein.
    He links this to a recent article on the website of the journal Behavioural Public Policy, which noted that people are motivated to deny problems and scientific evidence supporting them “when they are averse to the solutions”.
    “On climate change, the more that people believe there are palatable solutions, the more they will accept the science,” says Finkelstein.
    “And once they accept the science, it may be possible to nudge them towards more radical policies. Because they will be on board.”

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    pat

    comment in moderation re:

    10 Oct: UK Times: Let’s stop kidding ourselves about politics
    by Daniel Finkelstein
    From Kavanaugh to climate change, we keep ignoring the facts when they lead us towards solutions we don’t like…

    followup:

    Finkelstein is naturally anti-Brexit:

    Why that second Brexit referendum might just happen
    The Australian-2 Oct. 2018
    Pro-European Union demonstrators protest outside the Houses of Parliament in central London. By Daniel Finkelstein; The Times

    How And When A Second Referendum Might Happen, And What It Might Say
    Huffington Post – 9 Oct 2018
    By Meg Russell, Dr Alan Renwick
    (Professor Meg Russell is Professor of British and Comparative Politics and Director of the Constitution Unit at University College London
    Dr Alan Renwick is Associate Professor in British Politics and Deputy Director of the Constitution Unit at University College London)
    But there’s a big question about whether any deal reached will gain parliament’s approval. As Times commentator and Conservative peer ***Daniel Finkelstein has bluntly put it, in parliament: “There isn’t a majority for anything”.
    Recent weeks have seen increasing talk of a possible second referendum as a way out…
    If a further referendum is held, and particularly if it could potentially result in a ‘remain’ vote, it’s essential that the result is widely seen as legitimate…
    In terms of how a referendum could happen, our report identifies five possible scenarios…

    ???Tony Blair is exactly the right person to lead a new party
    New Statesman-20 Sep. 2018
    Should Tony Blair be our next prime minister at the head of a new centrist party? Daniel Finkelstein raises the preposterous notion…

    Here’s how to make the world a better place by Daniel Finkelstein
    The Times-17 Apr. 2018
    Yes, Africa will have big challenges: climate change, for instance…

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  • #
    pat

    10 Oct: ABC7: Former Mayor Bloomberg changes party affiliation to Democrat
    The move is being seen as a possible step toward running for president in 2020…
    A Democrat before seeking elective office, Bloomberg switched his party registration in 2001 to run for mayor as a Republican, before abandoning political affiliations in 2007. He won his third term in 2009 as an independent.
    Mayor Bloomberg made the announcement on Instagram Wednesday morning.
    He also shared the announcement on his Facebook and Twitter accounts.
    https://abc7ny.com/politics/former-mayor-bloomberg-re-registers-as-a-democrat/4453276/

    10

  • #
    pat

    nothing?

    9 Oct: Reuters: Nothing is worse for climate than burning coal: ex U.S. EPA chief
    by Nina Chestney
    Science shows that nothing does more to cause climate change than burning coal, a former head of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said on Tuesday, a position in contrast to President Donald Trump’s pro-fossil fuel policies…
    “We have big challenges ahead of us and I think that is what the (report) has told us…a low-carbon future is better. From a climate perspective, nothing is worse than burning coal,” former EPA administrator Gina McCarthy told a Financial Times climate finance summit in London.

    “I would like to see climate change presented as what science is telling us rather than a political statement, which is what many in the U.S. are positioning it as,” she added, referring to the Trump administration…

    “The announcements and proposals made by the new administration have not been finalised, they are not based on science and the law, and that is not exactly a winning formula when you go to the courts,” she said.
    “There is a long process behind all of this and eventually they will end up in the courts for a long period of time. Those rules were solidly done and based on science and the law, and it will take a lot to do undo them.” …
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-climatechange/nothing-is-worse-for-climate-than-burning-coal-ex-u-s-epa-chief-idUSKCN1MJ19Y?feedType=RSS&feedName=environmentNews

    How Brazil’s presidential election could eff up the planet for everyone
    By Paola Rosa-Aquino
    Grist – 9 Oct 2018

    10 Oct: BBC: Why you have (probably) already bought your last car
    By Justin Rowlatt
    PIC: Driverless taxis – the transport of the future?
    The central idea is pretty simple: Self-driving electric vehicles organised into an Uber-style network will be able to offer such cheap transport that you’ll very quickly – we’re talking perhaps a decade – decide you don’t need a car any more.
    And if you’re thinking this timescale is wildly optimistic, just recall how rapidly cars replaced horses…
    Fully autonomous electric taxi networks could offer rides at as little as 10% of current rates…
    Don’t worry that rural areas will be left out. A vehicle could be parked in every village waiting for your order to come…
    The logical next step will be for human beings to be banned from driving cars at all because they pose such a risk to other road users…

    And, please take note: I haven’t mentioned the enormous environmental benefits of converting the world’s cars to electricity.
    That’s because the logic of this upheaval isn’t driven by new rules on pollution or worries about global warming but by the most powerful incentive in any economy – cold hard cash.
    That said, there’s no question that a wholesale switch away from fossil fuels will slow climate change and massively reduce air pollution.
    In short, let the revolution begin!
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45786690

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    pat

    9 Oct: UK Independent: Jon Stone: Michael Gove skips climate change summit day after UN report calls for urgent action to avoid global disaster
    Environment secretary absent at meeting of his counterparts
    Michael Gove and the rest of the UK Cabinet have skipped a key international summit on climate change a day after a landmark UN report warned that “urgent” action was needed to avoid global warming disaster.

    Mr Gove’s department confirmed the environment secretary was not able to attend the meeting of EU environment ministers in Luxembourg, which is specifically about fighting climate change by cutting CO2 emissions, as well as other environmental matters such as biodiversity…

    The environment secretary, widely disliked in Brussels for his high-profile role in the Brexit campaign, has failed to attend any of the EU council meetings since he came to office, always sending deputies instead…

    But Mr Gove’s non-attendance at Tuesday’s important meeting following the IPCC report recommending “rapid, far-reaching and unprecedented changes in all aspects of society” angered environmentalists, who said his “failure to engage” was damning and showed the limited extent of the government’s ambitions…

    ***European ministers used the meeting to adopt a tougher position on climate change emphasising “the unprecedented urgency which is needed to step up global efforts to avoid the dangerous effects of climate change” and to work on new CO2 emissions standards for cars across the bloc…
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/climate-change-summit-un-report-michael-gove-environment-secretary-a8576116.html

    ***9 Oct: CarbonPulse: EU won’t seek to raise bloc’s 2030 climate target this year – Council
    EU environment ministers on Tuesday were unable to agree on raising the bloc’s 2030 emission reduction goal this year, though 15 of the 28 called for an increase before the end of the decade…

    ***9 Oct: Montel: Carbon dips below EUR 20 as uncertainty builds
    He also cited a combination of factors such as uncertainty regarding German coal-fired generation, ongoing Brexit negotiations, additional EUA supply from Norway next year and a decision by European environment ministers to keep the 2030 climate target unchanged…
    Europe’s environment ministers on Tuesday declined to increase the bloc’s 2030 emissions goals in line with a UN report recommending a cap on global temperature increases to 1.5C…

    00

  • #
    Geoff Sherrington

    Urgent that as many as can muster write to the PM to ask who is going to represent Australia at the rest of the IPCC meetings this year, what in broad terms they plan to agree to, then state your concern that we might not be democratically represented.
    (The last few teams were absolute Koolade converts with somr queer, abnormal critters who gave to green climate fund and partly signed away our Sovereignty.)
    Say that you would be upset if more taxpayer funds were given to UN and associated green groups. Ask how many people are planned to go expenses paid, why just one person is not enough and ask if any NGO reps are with the official party, like greenpeace, Wildlife fund, getup etc.
    Anything you can think of to stop the lemmings before the cliff.
    Geoff

    100

  • #
    observa

    The shorter AGL and Origin: Sweet Jesus none of us are gunna get a feed if the whole thing goes pear shaped with too much of this crap.

    30

  • #
    Chad

    Heard an interesting quote in a Political Movie last night that struck home..
    “The truth doesnt have the same effect anymore.”
    Facts dont count, its all about perception and effective messaging.!
    Democratic elections can be manipulated,
    Influence and outcomes bought.
    So , i guess he who shouts the loudest , for the longest , …wins ?

    20

  • #
    Dean

    Firming capacity?

    Is that the new term for baseload?

    40

    • #
      wal1957

      It’s the ‘green’ version of fossil based fuels, you know, those nasty fuels that have kept the lights on!

      10

    • #
      yarpos

      The arent variable, intermittent or unstable. They are just “un-firm”

      10

    • #
      observa

      No that means certain power is unfirm and only Origin and AGL are the correct firms to firm it silly. Otherwise there’d be a whole lot of unfirm firms unfirming our national grid and as firm firms they have to be firm speaking up against that.

      20

  • #

    Lower-cost renewables tend to push the higher-cost sources of dispatchable power – coal and gas – out of the market early

    01

  • #
    Leigh joned

    Wow.
    bunch of coal hugging retards.
    Renewables and storage are the future of the world inc. Australia when it finally votes in a capable government.

    01

  • #
    Serp

    Eliminate the RET and this posed conversation about renewables does not arise. It’s that simple.

    10

  • #
    observa

    They’re certainly beginning to panic about the level of unreliables heading the grid for a train wreck.
    Sure we can make these unreliables dispatchable with storage but at what extra horrendous cost when in SA in particular we already suffer the highest power prices in the world? The punters were promised abundant cheap power from Gaia and the implicit assumption was it would be available at the flick of a switch like they were used to. They’re not gunna be happy being lied to and that’s what the spruikers and rent-seekers are increasingly panicking about now. Their necks are on the chopping block if cascading blackouts begin in earnest most likely in peak summer demand.

    00