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Snowy Hydro goes activist, lobbies for renewables to boost profits, beat enemy “Coal”

Spot the vested interest

The biggest competitor for hydro in Australia is cheap old coal power. Surprise me, Snowy Hydro jumped into the national energy debate a few days ago on behalf of taxpayers themselves.

With Turnbull offering five-billion-dollar gravy to build an unnecessary hydro storage battery, it is no surprise to hear Snowy Hydro pretending that Australia needs more intermittent unreliables.  The more solar and wind rock the system, the more Big-Hydro is needed to stabilize the boat. The big question is why hardly any journalists or politicians seem able to spot the obvious vested interest:

Ben Packham, The Australian:

Snowy 2.0 declares wind and solar power ‘clearly cheaper’ than coal

The government-owned company building Malcolm Turnbull’s Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro project has added fuel to the energy wars by declaring wind and solar are clearly cheaper options than coal.

And if you owned Hydro stocks, you’d say that too. Coal is every generators enemy for a reason. It’s cheaper than they are.

See the tiny numbers above the columns in this graph? Those are actual settlement prices — tiny wholesale bargain sales of coal fired electrons at 1c per kilowatt hour.

Coal generated electricity prices, brown coal, graph.

Source: AER report on the closure of Hazelwood

Hydro can only fantasize about supplying electricity that cheaply. In the same AER report the Murray Hydro settlement prices were $44 – $122 per MW/h.

At least a few people in politics can spot the obvious:

The Coalition’s pro-coal faction questioned the claim, saying Snowy 2.0’s business model depended on the shift away from coal-fired power.

Why are the only sensible people called the “pro-coal” faction as if they are organized by the industry? They are the anti-stupid-waste faction. Their comment was spot on. Without renewables, there’s no reason for Snowy 2.0.

No one mention the cheapest source of electricity by far — old coal stations at $30/MWh

Snowy Hydro said its modelling showed the cost of wind power was $70-$80/MWh, and the cost of solar power was $77-$99/MWh, including price premiums for ­energy storage. It said new power from new high-efficiency low-emissions coal generators cost $78-$120/MWh.

See the word “new”? What goes unsaid is the price of old coal. The government owned company lies by omission.

Who does Snowy Hydro serve — not the taxpayers who own it.

“Regardless of views on climate policy or the future energy mix, what’s clear is the cost of building wind and solar — even with a price premium added for ‘firming’ capacity — is cheaper than new coal generation,” the company said in a document outlining the economic case for Snowy 2.0.

The cost of “storage” and frequency stability was zero in our old pre-renewables grid. The new hydro battery scheme costing $5,000 million is entirely a renewable energy charge. Wind and solar drive up the price of everything around them. When will we start adding that cost to the estimates of adding new solar and wind power?

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Snowy Hydro goes activist, lobbies for renewables to boost profits, beat enemy "Coal", 9.3 out of 10 based on 68 ratings

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100 comments to Snowy Hydro goes activist, lobbies for renewables to boost profits, beat enemy “Coal”

  • #
    WXcycles

    Speaking truth to power?

    102

    • #
      Spetzer86

      The article is trying to talk power to power. I just don’t think the powers that be are listening to anything but the sound of money flowing to friends.

      221

    • #
      clivehoskin

      If”Wind”and”Solar”are allegedly cheaper than coal,then there won’t be ANY need for”Subsidies”Stop paying them to the wind and solar gods and sit back and watch them racing for the nearest exit.And while the”Cowardly.Lying,Do Nothing,Career Politicians”are at it they can get rid of the RET and all the other”Unlawful Hidden”taxes,that WE aren’t supposed to know about.

      331

    • #
      Geoff

      Vote buying is rampant. If Snowy Hydro had to pay for the capex on their assets they would not be in business. The Federal Government is paying $6B to the states for full ownership. See https://www.sbs.com.au/news/6b-snowy-hydro-windfall-for-nsw-vic Show us just where this is going as a debt on Snowy Hydro’s balance sheet? Just how is this borrowed money to be paid? This is just another cook the books scam. Malcolm Turnbull specializes in cook books.

      231

  • #
    pattoh

    At least you can still use the light poles even if the power goes off on the Round-about.

    111

  • #

    “It said new power from new high-efficiency low-emissions coal generators cost $78-$120/MWh.”

    I’ll bet this includes more unnecessary ‘climate mitigation’ costs then direct costs.

    242

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      62 countries want to build new coal fired plants because they provide cheap reliable electricity. Except for Greece (local low grade coal) the rest want to use HELE generators because wind (at $A92 down to $A79) solar (at $A91 down to $A61) and solar thermal (at $A172 down to $A109 ) are more expensive.
      [ Costs are from the Finkel report 2020 and 2030 ].
      So why does HELE coal cost so much less overseas?

      70

  • #
    Yonniestone

    All this flip flopping on coal then renewables is just a political tactic to keep one foot in both camps, if your’e anti coal then you appease the believers in climate whatever electorate and if you talk up coal you appease the rational electorate either way the government and self interested win as they always get to do what they want and reap the benefits of their distraction.

    To survive this era of the career politician the people must realise they are a very distant second to the selfish interests of those they elected, in fact it would be less of a hassle for them to do away with elections altogether and allow the extreme narcissists decide who is best for whatever position we’re privileged to have them in, sound familiar?……..hello Australia 1999.

    161

  • #
    Another Ian

    Well here is your answer!

    “Delingpole: Global Warming Has Rotted the Brains of the Political Class”

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/05/23/global-warming-makes-politicians-stupid/

    121

    • #
      Another Ian

      Somewhat O/T Delingpole again

      “Delingpole: Why Congress Shouldn’t Trust Climate ‘Experts’ ”

      http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/05/23/delingpole-why-congress-shouldnt-trust-climate-experts/

      And to help with that – Willis E’s take on sea level rising

      https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/05/22/changes-in-the-rate-of-sea-level-rise/

      61

    • #
      PeterS

      I laughed when I saw the “cut carbon by 90%” banner. The crowd don’t know the difference between carbon and CO2. If we cut carbon by 90% all life here on earth would be dead, and I mean ALL life. We are being lead by fools, educated by fools and surrounded by fools. I see only one outcome in all this – crash and burn, unless the public by and large wake up very quickly, which I don’t see any sign of it happening due to the overwhelming propaganda coming from everywhere. Oh well, that’s life. Enjoy the ride folks.

      151

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I repeatedly advocate that all able bodied persons who care about their families should buy and maintain a legal firearm ( or two ).

        The basic lesson that is all through history is – those who are unprotected will be killed for their food and anything else the ( armed ) thugs want to take.

        Wisdom means learning from others mistakes.

        70

  • #
    PeterS

    So what they are really saying is one water battery is to support the whole of Australia as we use more and more intermittent renewables and less reliable coal fired power stations, regardless of the cost comparison. Now I am convinced they are taking us for fools. When will voters wake up and put a stop to all this nonsense and show it in the polls even before the election is due by placing ACP and ON each in the 15%+ range, and the Greens much closer to 0%? Wake up Australia! Ding dong ding dong!!

    131

  • #

    Two simple realities. Storage adds its price to the price of generation. Storage will make coal cheaper by allowing optimised load but solar and wind more expensive by using them when they would have been cheap and competing when they are not.

    111

  • #
    PeterS

    It’s true when Rudd said climate change is the greatest moral challenge of our generation. When his Orwellian speech is translated to clear English, what he actually meant is it’s going to be an easily achievable challenge to push down our throats the catastrophic man-made climate change hoax whether we like it or not and there is nothing we can do about it because they are going to rely on the masses remaining as fools long enough for the hoax to be fully implemented. Turnbull is helping to achieve that goal, with the support of the voters. If Turnbull’s support is diminished at the next election then we have Shorten instead to take over to complete the plan. Well done Australia!

    131

  • #
  • #
    PeterS

    Who cares how much it costs? Even if the cost of power from renewables is 1c/MWh or even free, and the cost of coal power is $1,000/Mwh, when there is none of either available the country’s economy collapses. Given renewables only provide sufficient power a fraction of the time we have to rely heavily on coal for a long time to come until we replace it with something else, such as nuclear, or perhaps a better source not yet dreamed up yet. If the public can’t see we are headed for a crash and burn scenario here in Australia alone from the rest of the world, then we deserve to get what happens as a result.

    101

  • #
    Kinky Keith

    This thread is only up to comment #6 and the comments all hit the mark in one way or another.

    The core issue is succinctly illustrated by Spetzer86 where the issue of Money is mentioned.

    That’s All we really need to know about current electricity production, it’s not about the electricity.

    The other important point needs to be understood.

    Friends Share. Isn’t that what friends are for?

    KK

    81

    • #
      el gordo

      Keith we need to support the ginger group in the run up to Xmas and hopefully a coup, with Abbott and Joyce taking back the Treasury Benches.

      “The government should stop pretending it’s technology-neutral when its own officials are so plainly biased against coal even though it’s still by far the cheapest form of baseload power,” Tony Abbott said.

      If this fails to eventuate then obviously I look forward to Australia’s self destruction and a Beijing takeover.

      141

      • #
        PeterS

        Given that Turnbull and his ministers are busy still pushing the renewable agenda, and after listening to Mathias Corman on 2GB today where he virtually admitted that the Libs want to preference ALP above ON, the so called ginger group better get moving along right now. Why wait?

        90

      • #
        Kinky Keith

        For the first time in a long while this morning I felt really unhappy about the world.

        It no longer seems that we have control of our destiny.

        There has been no infrastructure built in the last few decades despite tax and surcharges being at all times highs.

        Where does the money go to.

        Friends.

        KK

        91

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          It goes to causes that further the undermining of country by our “representatives”.

          Maybe some form of full blown electoral revolt is in order. The French seem to be rather good at going bolshie on pollies who tick them off….

          Its also worth boiling the whole mess down to a “pub lecture”, so that anyone in a pub could grasp whats going on. Once the publicum “get it”, it will snowball quickly.

          30

        • #
          NB

          KK, it is easy to feel that way. The hope is that the USA will provide the direction the West needs, as it did after the crazy 1970s during which Uri Geller, putting razor blades under pyramids, Eric von Daniken, 90% taxation, Maoism, mission brown, and macrame pot hangers, became fashionable. I am hoping we are nearing an end to a similar period of insanity, where cultural marxism (which includes the weird ideology of post-modernism and mask-issues like climate change) finally meets it demise with the rise of the internet as a market-place for ideas. Gratifyingly, the left has completely freaked out about the internet now it realises it is not the predominant influence there, as it thought it was up to November 2016. Note too the decline in ABC news ratings. Nice. My current view is that through the internet we are, probably for the first time in history, generating a culture independent of entrenched ‘thought leaders’. Where this takes us I do not know, but I am broadly optimistic. Wait to see what happens at the USA midterm elections. This will be an important litmus test.

          40

          • #
            KinkyKeith

            After reading that I feel a lot better.

            We need to expose “mask issues” for what they are: attempts to paralyse voters thinking so that they just give up and leave it to the one who gets elected.

            20

            • #
              NB

              ‘We need to expose “mask issues” for what they are.’
              Indeed. JoNova does, as do commenters such as yourself. Lots of unmasking is going on at a popular level in the USA at present, such as with the Kanye West/Candace Owens exchange.
              I find
              Pointman blog;
              Streetwise Professor blog;
              Victor Davis Hanson blog;
              Mish Shedlock blog (particularly on the EU);
              Peter Robinson interviews for Hoover on YouTube;
              Dave Rubin report on YouTube;
              Scott Adams on Periscope (replayed on YouTube ‘ScottAdamsSays Periscope Tube’); PhilosophyInsights on YouTube;
              all to be useful in this respect.

              40

          • #
            NB

            Steady decline of Democrat midterm vote:
            https://ig.ft.com/us-midterm-elections/
            http://cookpolitical.com/analysis/house/house-overview/house-ratings-changes-gop-fortunes-improve-four-districts
            These polls only confirm what one might reasonably expect. The list of self-created perils for the left is almost endless, and ‘Spygate’ will not help. The trend appears secure unless something very serious occurs to reverse it.

            20

  • #
    manalive

    There’s hydro that is a source of electricity like coal and then there’s pumped hydro that isn’t but uses more electricity than it produces.
    There appears to be an effort in this report to conflate the two to confuse the public.
    In 2007 Snowy Hydro almost ran out of water due to drought, serious drought that has occurred in SE Australia every 20-30 years.
    Even if the CC™ alarmists are correct and droughts become more frequent Snowy 2.0 will do nothing to alleviate it.

    191

  • #
    Antoine D'Arche

    I can’t wait til it all goes kaboom. I’m tired of trying to teach primary school maths to allegedly smart people and other retarded Gaia worshippers.
    I’m going to sit back and listen to the screams of the zombies in Lygon St looking helplessly and hopelessly for their lattes.
    Bring on the grid failure.

    161

    • #
      Robdel

      I agree completely. Only grid failure will shake the public out of their torpor. It might be too late by then.

      171

      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        There will be a very big price signal before that happens.

        Industry will become even more uncompetitive internationally before that happens. Companies will increase the rate of departure for foreign climes or go belly-up.

        Government welfare outlays (unemployment benefits) will increase, while taxation receipts will decline – unless rates are increased.

        The progs will be slow boiled. We don’t want anybody hopping out of the hopper, do we?

        The Monash Group needs to initiate a “General Mobilization” and apply some bold strategy sooner rather than later.

        30

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          I notice there was a company in Israel who have created a hydrogen maker that uses RF to dissociate water back in 2015. Maybe we need to investigate alternate tech to shatter the whole political / corporate paradigm….

          20

    • #
      PeterS

      I’m afraid you are spot on. We now need to suffer the crash and burn scenario for the people of Australia to wake up. There are far too many people around who are acting like zombies, and it’s actually getting worse not better thanks to the continuous blabber from Turnbull and his ministers. Australia is alone on all this. Everywhere nations are building coal and/or nuclear power stations galore. Even those nations who are focused on renewables are not actually as much in a hurry to get rid of their base load power stations. Their long term plan might be to get rid of them slowly but for some reason we are falling over each other rushing to shut our coal fired power stations. If LNP can’t shut them down soon enough then ALP_Greens will. That appears to be the unique plan that Australia has adopted. What is really strange is the public by and large don’t appear to care. That’s why the crash and burn scenario is very likley.

      90

      • #
        Kinky Keith

        The public are being deliberately kept out of the loop by mountains of disinformation.

        At the very least this is unethical behavior on the part of politicians.

        How is this NOT criminal activity deserving of official scrutiny?

        A crucial point you make is that,

        “Australia stands alone on this”.

        And we snigger and poke fun at countries like North Korea.

        KK

        71

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          It will confuse the astronauts in the ISS as they fly over Oz and find another blacked out country, thinking it was North Korea…..

          Australia is the crash test dummy for all this…then if successful, I suspect this strategy will be rolled out globally. SA was a raging success from a greenist point of view, so now its Oz wide…then global…the Globalists do small scale tests first. Our pollies and apathetic and ignorant population make the perfect test candidate.

          Gloabalist Turncoats’ brilliance is looking sincere, while….

          40

        • #
          ROM

          OK! I will try to play something akin to the Devils advocate here.

          Right through all the comments in all the relevant posts here on Jo’s blog, and including past comments from myself, there has been a very strong condemnation of the public’s and the politicals attitudes along with an apparent ignorance and casual disregard for the consequences that will occur if and when we begin to have power cuts and potential blackouts as fossil fuel fired generators are withdrawn from the grid or are just shut down due to age or whatever.

          The public just don’t seem to get it just what impact power failures and blackouts for extended periods might have on their own personal lives and on the operations of our essential as well as non essential services as well as on the way we might have to live if the power failures ran into days or weeks.
          In fact it appears that the public for the most part just couldn’t care less about any potential power cuts and power failures.

          Reality being of course that the vast bulk of the public as well as the politicals have spent their entire lives living with a rock steady always there power supply available in seemingly infinite amounts along with all the services that are powered by electricity that was always available at the flick of what ever switch they would like to hit at the moment .

          The vast mass of the Australian public do not know what it is like to be without electrical power for extended periods nor do they have the experience to realise what it is like to be without power for extended periods

          They have no concept at all on the staggering numbers of services that would no longer be available during long period power failures, from refridgeration through to traffic lights through to sewerage systems operating or not, to vehicle fuel outlets with no pumps and therefore with no fuel access onto cooking and smart phones and computers and tablets going black and supermarket and food outlets not having food available when demanded and medical facilities only available in dire emergencies and etc and etc..

          So I guess that before condemning others who haven’t thought through the consequences of a major energy shortage we ourselves need to look at what we ourselves might be missing in the energy field.

          In May this year to quote ; Fairfax Media reports the country has only a 22-day supply of crude oil, 59 days of LPG, 20 days of petrol, 19 days of aviation fuel and 21 days of diesel.

          The International Energy Agency expects countries to keep a 90-day supply but Australia has just under 50 days.

          Now if things got hot in SE Asia and around Singapore where most of our mobile fuels are imported from the huge Singapore refineries we might find that we here in Australia nationally are literally running out of fuel for our vehicle reliant society.

          So for the denizens here just contemplate what it might mean if there was little or no fuel available to the public for their personal transportation and for commercial useage in stocking super markets and etc and for harvesting veggies and for crop preperation and planting and harvesting otherwise known as the food industry, agriculture and horticulture of today cannot run or operate without access to huge amounts of fossil fuels.

          We have never been without the use of and ready availability of vehicles and motorised transport systems.
          Nor have we ever bothered to think through or prepare any sort of survival kit is our mobile fuel reserves ran out or were withheld.

          So few of us have ever contemplated what it would be like to go without any vehicle transport systems operating for days or weeks without end.

          The massive breakdown in the delivery chain of so many products and essntial services is beyond the comphrehension of just about everybody who has never experienced such a situation in a complex society such as ours is.

          And yet either or both of those scenarios plus other equally disastrous scenarios are potentially likely into the not so far future if there is a power failure blackout of some duration also meaning that no mobile fuels will be available for vehicles as well and everything that involves as well.

          So I guess before we throw to many more rocks we should also contemplate our own biases and weakness and failures to contemplate any potential future scenarios where we are deprived of some unrecognised but essential requirement that keeps our personal lives plus our society smoothly running.

          60

          • #
            KinkyKeith

            The Politicians have taken on the role of applying themselves, and paid experts, to run the country sensibly.

            They have deceived voters who trusted them and also trusted the law, and continue to do so.

            Politicians must be held accountable, but that can only happen when the public knows what is happening.

            As mentioned above, I believe that the public is being snowed badly.

            KK

            31

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              When it gets bad, the pollies wont be able to hide from the public.

              However…..and there is always a “But”….

              What if there is a period of instability whereby this country suffers major infrastructure stoppage due to intermittent power?

              In terms of law and order, imagine people used to hand outs from the govt, unable to get them. And the same people who might then resort to violence and attack wealthier ( or middle class ) neighbourhoods to get what they think they are entitled to?

              Which people will survive? Thugs respect deterrent.

              If you think some who are by nature violent and have an ingrained sense of entitlement and raised on violent video games and rap music will listen to reason, you are a fool who will unlikely live through one encounter with these people.

              If anything, watching what has happened in South Africa and Venezuela should be sobering enough…..

              40

            • #
              MudCrab

              Politicians must be held accountable, but that can only happen when the public knows what is happening.

              And so discussion about the ABC comes up yet again…

              40

        • #
          PeterS

          Yes the public is being BS but that’s not the issue. People have brains and they should use them to think critically. In other words, the public should not take everything for granted because if they did, and they do, then the risk is the people will be fooled into believing anything, including silly things like the earth is flat. After all the public are supposed to elect candidates that follow their wishes and their beliefs. So far all I can see is the public by and large wish this nation to use more and more renewables at the expense of coal and believe the CAGW hoax is real. Stupid is as stupid does.

          30

        • #
          NB

          The perfect symbol of this destruction is the ALP blowing up a viable coal fired power station in South Australia, wantonly destroying national wealth.

          10

  • #
    Robber

    Has anyone reviewed the business case for Snowy 2? “Some of the study chapters have been withheld as they include commercially confidential information”.
    Chapter 3 Commercial (omitted)
    Chapter 4 Business Analysis and Modelling (omitted)
    Chapter 14 Cost Estimate (omitted)
    From the Summary: “Snowy 2.0 has significant benefits for consumers. By pairing new dispatchable renewable generation with large scale energy storage, Snowy 2.0 will make renewables reliable and lower future energy prices. Snowy 2.0, along with the existing Snowy Scheme, will underpin an orderly transition from coal to renewables and help Australia meet its global climate change targets.
    An independent economic analysis was commissioned for the feasibility study and conducted by leading experts Marsden Jacobs Associates (MJA). MJA’s extensive modelling confirms Snowy 2.0’s scale, strategic location and longevity make it by far the cheapest and best option to decarbonise. MJA’s analysis shows that if Snowy 2.0 is not built, batteries and gas peakers would need to be installed, at more than double the cost”.
    “Lower energy prices – putting downward pressure on future energy prices. Wholesale energy costs will be lower with Snowy 2.0 in the market than without”.
    So the key assumption shows that it is not about lowering electricity costs, but about costs given “we must Decarbonise.”

    Why are we not allowed to see the full business case, yet the Minister and a Snowy 2 Spokeperson can quote selectively from the feasibility study?

    “Snowy Hydro said its modelling showed the cost of wind power was $70-$80/MWh, and the cost of solar power was $77-$99/MWh, including price premiums for ­energy storage.”
    Where do those numbers come from? Dr Finkel reported wind without backup was $92, and solar $92 without backup, and with backup $172. New supercritical coal was $76/Mwhr.

    As you said Jo: “At least a few people in politics can spot the obvious: The Coalition’s pro-coal faction questioned the claim, saying Snowy 2.0’s business model depended on the shift away from coal-fired power”. Keep challenging fake facts and spreading the word. Is an FOI request possible, or excluded because Snowy is a separate corporation? Which politicians will ask the tough questions?

    And note their report’s final “important notice”: “Nothing contained in this Study is, or may be relied upon as a promise, representation, or warranty, whether as to the past, present, or future. No express or implied representation or warranty is made by Snowy Hydro to any third party that the contents of the Study are suitable for any purpose. Snowy Hydro does not accept a duty of care or any other legal responsibility whatsoever and however arising to any person in relation to this Study. Any person who receives a copy of this Study does so on the basis that he or she acknowledges and accepts that he or she may not rely on this Study nor any related information provided by Snowy Hydro”.

    161

    • #
      PeterS

      The more I study the new scheme the worse it looks. It’s actually something I would expect the Greens to come up with but because Turnbull thought of it first the Greens and the ALP probably have decided to say very little. It’s not really any surprise given Turnbull’s leftist views on many topics, in particular supporting the CAGW hoax.

      100

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Well if you apply a filter of “all are globalists, working for the same cause” it makes perfect sense.

        So far, that filter seems to hold. Turncoat is also a champagne socialist. His missus is also deeply entrenched in the Big Pharma space, and they make the perfect globalist puppets…

        40

  • #
    toorightmate

    Snowy 2.0 will be up there with NBN and NDIS.
    Austria – just getting dumber and dumber.
    The CO2 horsesh*to stop.

    80

  • #
    David Maddison

    Coal power will be what’s used to pump water up hill to recharge the hydro battery plus an additional 20% energy will be needed to account for pumping and discharge losses.

    91

  • #
    David Maddison

    In the minds of the sheeple and other uneducated people such as politicians Snowy Hydro 2 seems to be understood as a net power generator rather than a battery which will be less than 100% efficient. A typical figure is that pumped hydro is about 80% efficient so for this scheme to work and if there is to be no net loss of grid generating capacity the grid needs to have extra generating capacity added to compensate for the losses. In practice this will mean more COAL capacity to recharge the battery as that is the only cheap and reliable power source, except for gas and nuclear. Of course, cost is no object so bizarrely they might use expensive diesel generators to pump the water up hill.

    The pioneer engineers of the original Snowy Hydro Scheme would be appalled that this insanity is riding on the good name of their original scheme.

    111

    • #
      PeterS

      Well it could only get worse. I bet some believe it’s a perpetual power source that requires less energy to go in than comes out.

      30

  • #
    BoyfromTottenham

    Slightly O/T, but has anyone noticed the ‘switch and bait’ weasel words in the McKinsey & Co. ‘An Australian Cost Curve for Greenhouse Gas Reduction’ report here:

    https://www.mckinsey.com/~/media/mckinsey/dotcom/client_service/sustainability/cost%20curve%20pdfs/australian_cost_curve_for_ghg_reduction.ashx

    Appendix A (p23) titled ‘How to read an abatement cost curve’ shows the cost per tonne of CO2 abatement in 2007 dollars, which varies between +$65/tonne (a net $65 / tonne CO2e LOSS to the Australian economy) to -$130 / tonne (a net $130 / tone CO2e GAIN to the Australian economy).

    Then look at the explanation of ‘Negative and positive costs’ below the chart:
    “Negative costs indicate a net financial benefit to the economy over the lifecycle of the abatement opportunity.
    Positive costs imply that capturing the opportunity would incur incremental lifecycle costs compared to the business-as-usual or ‘do nothing’ case.”

    Examples of abatement opportunities shown on the chart with’negative’ costs are upgrading commercial building lighting, motors and HVAC systems to improve their efficiency. The cost of these upgrades is relatively low, and they SAVE businesses money every year.

    Examples of opportunities with ‘positive’ costs are installing new Solar PV, coal-CCS refit and new on-shore wind, all of which are hugely expensive and COST businesses money every year.

    And yet our governments subsidise those opportunities which COST the economy money every year, but not those that SAVE the economy money every year. EPIC FAIL.

    50

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      This nonsense couldn’t have progressed this far if govt, industry and the UN weren’t collaborating closely….

      30

      • #
        PeterS

        You left out the most influential and significant part – the voters. Don’t just blame the politicians. Regardless of the motives of the politicians, the voters keep voting primarily for the same old parties, ALP+Greens -> LNP -> ALP+Greens -> LNP -> ad nauseam, and expecting a different result.

        40

        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Peter, I think the Politicians need a lot of blame.

          They have been given positions of power and trust and have roundly abused both.

          There is no doubt that they have deliberately misled the public on Electricity Costing and then taken advantage of the uncertainty and confusion.

          Our PM is laughing at us as his wife tells us how people friendly the city of Sydney is.

          KK

          41

          • #
            PeterS

            Let’s wait and see what happens at the next federal election. If the ACP and ON do not manage to gain sufficient support to prevent either major party from forming a majority government then it proves the people actually support the push for renewables at break neck speed at the expense of coal fired power stations. They have been given more than enough time to learn and decide so there is no excuse and they can’t plead ignorance.

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              ColA

              Peter,
              They can’t learn if they are not told and most MSM are leftard/green.
              The real question is how do the sheeple get educated??
              Who is going to tell them and how are they going to get the message across with MSM so bias against??
              Even when the SA crash test dummy failed there was little reality checking mostly lost under political philabusting!!
              If you ask a sheeple if we have plenty of solar and wind power do we need coal power? Most will say NO, we don’t need coal. Many have no concept how much of power is coal fired.
              That’s because there is so much mumbling, bumbling, 1/2 truths and down right lies floating in the either that they don’t know who to believe or how to read the evidence, worse a lot of the younger gen have had environmental stuff drilled into them to the point that they don’t question.

              Poll:- How many reading Jo on a regular basis are under 30 or even 40? I think that number would be chilling!! :-(

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              • #
                PeterS

                There’s a thing called the internet. It’s a powerful source of information. The invention of the book advanced civlisation greatly. The internet is far more powerful than the book in so many ways. Yes one has to be careful what the see on the internet but that’s no different to when books arrived.

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              • #
                Annie

                When you try to say anything, however gently, you are roundly abused, screamed at in fact and in one case with fingers stuffed firmly in the ears, literally.

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              • #
                Another Ian

                PeterS

                The internet as the “information highway” – my take is that it is more like a bad wheat crop – there are grains there hidden in a large mass of chaff.

                And I give you some hope for the younger generation. I’m particularly proud of our youngest who took on the bloke trying to tell him what a good idea was the Qld veg management act – complete with photos on his phone. The elder two similar.

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    • #
      RickWill

      The Rudd government went down the insulation path – it worked well for me as I was able to insulate some vertical walls exposed to the roof cavity on the upper floor. However it did not work out well for many. I saw recently that Rudd was required to give evidence in a civil case against the government for business failures associated with the rapid withdrawal of the program.

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  • #
    David Maddison

    The obsession with windmill and solar power in defiance of any demonstrated need for these inferior power generating technologies is actually a form of idolatry.

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    • #
      PeterS

      Possibly but it would be far more accurate to call it a betrayal of their responsibility to govern this nation in the interests of the people. There is a word for that but I’m sure I would be moderated for using it.

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    BoyfromTottenham

    David,

    I only wish this ‘obsession’ was that benign.

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  • #

    And still the people who actually make our stuff are burning our coal in their plants at, to borrow a phrase of the climatariat, “record” levels. Yes, it seems our 2017 coal export dollars are “unprecedented”.

    Why, I’m willing to bet that Malcolm’s fluoro vest and hard hat are straight out of an Asian factory. A little piece of Australia was burnt in China to keep Malcolm looking all rugged and hands-on for the marginals.

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    • #
      PeterS

      Well given time and the push by the ALP+greens to close down our coal mines, we might find ourselves having to import coal instead of exporting it. Gives a new meaning to the phrase that was used in the past in Britain, “carrying coal to Newcastle” except it will apply to our Newcastle. Of course it probably won’t happen but that’s because by the time it could the nation will be destroyed and so there won’t be much for a need for so much power.

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    OriginalSteve

    I watch the whole madness of Old King Renewables, and wonder….

    There is a parasite that infects mice, so they become suicidal, and will be eaten by a cat/predator, thus continuing the life cycle of the parasite.

    I watch the skittish wide-eyed and drooling lunatic gyrations of the powers that be, as they whip themselves into their frantic vortex of madness, and wait for it to all come crashing down ( while using an umbrella to deflect the drool as it flies off….)

    Its a little “Alice in Wonderland” as we sit, the only sane ones, at the Mad Hatters Tea Party table ….

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    • #
      David Maddison

      The parasite is Toxoplasma gondii.

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    • #
      PeterS

      Perhaps something like that could explain the lack of will by the voting public to issue even a small protest against all this madness. Whatever the parasite is, it’s certainly working well. There was a far greater reaction when PM Abbott tried to introduce the $7 GP co-payment, which would have been insignificant compared to the hike in power costs since then due to renewables. I actually prefer to think too many Australians are just plain dumb. Sorry but that’s by observation and not by choice.

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  • #
    Mark M

    What’s changed in SA?

    South Australia will push ahead with a plan to install battery systems built by Elon Musk’s Tesla in 50,000 homes, with the new State Government committing to continue the pro-battery agenda of its predecessor.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-24/tesla-battery-plan-gets-green-light-from-sa-liberals/9794486

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    • #
      PeterS

      Just goes to prove the LNP is just as bad as the ALP+Greens. Anyone else thought of placing ACP and ON above the rest? Or am I the only one in the whole nation? Oh well, I better stock up on more firewood and petrol.

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    • #
      KinkyKeith

      It just gets worser and worser.

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      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I see it like this : as SA becomes more dis-functional, it will be more and more likely to want to run disconnected from the power inter-connectors from Victoria & NSW.

        If SA is allowed to be connected to Vic and NSW and “transfer” instability ( not sure if this can be controlled or not ) to those grids, it logically should be cut off from the rest of Oz.

        My concern is that SA will become the brick a sadist would throw a drowning man….

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        • #
          RickWill

          One of the platforms for the new SA LNP government was upgrading the capacity of the interconnection with NSW. That would avoid the current curtailment events and accelerate the demise of Liddell as the increased intermittency destroys its base load. That means more gas replacing coal in NSW and forcing up prices in that state. In fact the intermittency even gets to southern Queensland so that market would also see increasing prices.

          This is called spreading the pain. It is not enough that SA gets transfer funds from residents in other states through the sale of LGCs and STCs but it can spread the intermittency so other states need to rely more on gas.

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    David Maddison

    QUESTION

    In terms of subsidies that can be harvested and forced purchase of this power (since it is “renewable” and has to be purchased before coal power) what is the overall economic subsidy harvesting model for this scheme?

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    • #
      RickWill

      It works the same way on price arbitrage as the HPR. It would store perched water when prices are low and generate when prices are high.

      If Australia already had enough hydro to supply the full demand but was short on perched water then wind and solar would be an economic new source of generation for between 20 and 30% of the demand. To achieve higher market penetration requires overbuild in generation and that then requires storage in addition to the perched water. That combination is not economic compared with coal unless the pumped storage already exists as well.

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    pat

    when you speak up for coal:

    comment by rosa on Pickering Post:

    Alan Jones – I am hearing that Craig Kelly is under siege in his electorate of Hughes. There is massive branch stacking going on. Kent Johns was a former Labor Mayor in the Sutherlandshire. He was electoral poison. The nominations have to be put forward by Friday, tomorrow. This is madness. If this is true it will rip the Liberal Party apart, an all out war…

    23 May: SMH: Malcolm Turnbull personally intervenes to save Ann Sudmalis from preselection defeat
    By Michael Koziol
    In the south Sydney seat of Hughes, firebrand conservative MP Craig Kelly faces likely defeat at the hands of NSW Liberal Party vice-president Kent Johns, a former Labor mayor of the Sutherland Shire who defected to the Liberals.

    A moderate Liberal number-cruncher said Mr Kelly was “done”. “Got the numbers – all over,” he said…
    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/malcolm-turnbull-personally-intervenes-to-save-ann-sudmalis-from-preselection-defeat-20180523-p4zh1o.html

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    pat

    how funny:

    23 May: Daily Caller: Tom Steyer’s Wife Resigns To Protest Fossil Fuels One Day Before Term Was Over Anyway
    By Jason Hopkins
    Kat Taylor — the wife of billionaire environmentalist and political activist Tom Steyer — protested Harvard University’s fossil fuel investments by resigning from the Harvard Board of Overseers one day before her six-year term was due to expire.
    Taylor had enough of Harvard University’s fossil fuel investments. She stepped down from her position as a member of the Harvard Board of Overseers on Tuesday. In her resignation letter, Taylor decried the school’s “failure” to “adopt ethical commitments,” according (LINK) to the Harvard Crimson.
    “We should and would be horrified to find out that Harvard investments are actually funding some of the pernicious activities against which our standout academic leadership rails,” her letter stated. “But that is where we still sit, vulnerable to the inevitable association with our investment targets that profiting from them demands.”…

    In March of this year, Taylor wrote an op-ed (LINK) for The Crimson, the university’s newspaper, calling for fossil fuel divestments.
    “I call upon the next University president, and the Harvard Corporation members who take his counsel, to adopt ethical investment principles,” she wrote. “At a minimum, Harvard should direct the Harvard Management Company to divest from fossils fuels to prevent the end of life as we know it through cascading climate-driven disasters.”…

    “My only regret in resigning early is missing the chance to bid you a proper goodbye,” Taylor wrote to her colleagues on the Board a day before she was expected to leave anyway. “I fervently hope that all of you will demand accountable financial transactions on behalf of us all as I have tried to do.”
    http://dailycaller.com/2018/05/23/tom-steyers-wife-resigns-harvard/?print=1

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    ROM

    To bring everybody up to speed on the sources of our electrical power generation fuels.

    From a “Parliament of Australia” report

    Electricity markets and the role of coal fired power stations

    Numbers taken froma Wagon Wheel graph at the above site;

    The National Electricity Market [ NEM eastern Australia ] and the South West Interconnected System, [ the one that Jo highlighted as having solar panel problems a few posts ago ] cover 86 per cent and eight per cent, respectively, of Australia’s electricity demand.[4]
    ……………..
    NEM electricity generation mix;.
    .
    Black Coal; = 52.4 %
    Brown coal = 24.8%
    Gas =. 9.9%
    Water = 7.3%
    Wind = 5.2%
    Solar [ commercial ] = 0.2%
    Biomass = 0.2%
    …………………..
    For the SWIS [ mostly sw WA. ]
    .
    Coal = 50%
    Gas = 35%
    Gas / diesel = 4%
    Coal / gas = 2%
    Renewable = 9%

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    pat

    when you speak up for coal:

    24 May: ABC: David Leyonhjelm supported Adani in Parliament after investing in Abbot Point coal port
    By political reporter Jackson Gothe-Snape
    (Jackson Gothe-Snape is involved with the Burn The Register project)
    A crucial crossbench senator repeatedly voted in support of Adani in Parliament while owning a corporate bond issued by the group’s Abbot Point coal terminal.
    And there are no laws or rules governing how ordinary MPs should behave when faced with a potential conflict of interest…

    In September 2016, Senator David Leyonhjelm sought to disclose he was an investor in a corporate bond issued by the Adani Abbot Point coal terminal company through “investment vehicle” Amavid Pty Ltd…
    The port company is a corporate entity within the Adani Group that, through a trust, has a 99-year lease of the terminal from the Queensland Government. It is located near coal reserves.
    Since then he has voted against several motions from the Greens that were critical of Adani, and has also made public statements in relation to the port or Adani’s mine…

    The Liberal Democratic Party senator told Sky News in April last year that although “he wouldn’t like” the Government providing a loan to Adani for its Carmichael coal mine, he was open to support for a railway “that could potentially be used by other operators”…
    The free-speech advocate has also spoken in the Senate to complain about red tape and environmental activism, using Adani as an example.
    Senator Leyonhjelm declined to answer questions from the ABC, including why he bought the bond, how much was invested and whether he thought his actions might constitute a potential conflict of interest…

    Professor Wanna (professor in public administration and government at ANU) said a federal Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) “may tighten up conflicts of interest issues” in the federal parliament, or even investigate alleged breaches.
    Labor leader Bill Shorten announced in January his party would create a federal integrity commission if it wins the coming election.
    However Attorney-General Christian Porter has written to his Labor counterpart saying such a commission “may not be the most effective or efficient option”, according to a recent report…

    The investment in the Abbot Point port was only revealed when Senator Leyonhjelm’s disclosures were updated with better quality scans earlier this year.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-24/david-leyonhjelm-revealed-as-investor-in-adani-port/9743572

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    pat

    another survey you can’t believe in:

    23 May: SMH: ‘On the nose’: Australians’ views favour conservation, curbs on coal
    by Peter Hannam
    The overwhelming majority of Australians think climate change is real, about two-thirds view themselves to be environmentalists “at heart”, and just over half say the government should not allow new coal mines in the country, according (to) data gathered by WWF and Roy Morgan.

    Combining attitudes towards nature collected over two decades with a wide-ranging survey of 1800 respondents at the end of last year, the groups found a strong – and lately, rising – interest in protecting habitats on land and sea.
    The Great Barrier Reef was chosen by 89 per cent of those surveyed in the Backyard Barometer Report (LINK) as one of the top three places to protect, ahead of the Daintree rainforests of north Queensland and Tasmania’s forests – both at 38 per cent.
    “The reef is certainly an iconic place that is clearly at the heart of Australia,” ***Mr O’Gorman told Fairfax Media. “They care deeply about it and want to see it saved.”…

    Almost six in 10 named solar as their preferred energy source, ahead of wind at 15 per cent. Just seven per cent picked coal and 4 per cent gas.
    “Coal is definitely on the nose and 69 per cent agree that coal and gas are putting the planet at risk,” Mr O’Gorman said. “That’s a clear message to politicians but also…to electricity and energy providers that their licence to operate is disappearing extremely fast.”
    In that vein, 52 per cent of those surveyed supported the statement that “the federal government should not allow new coal mines”, with only 22 per cent rejecting that statement, the report found.

    Age gap
    The survey also produced a generational divide between respondents aged 18-24 compared with those older than 65 years…
    https://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/on-the-nose-australians-views-favour-conservation-curbs-on-coal-20180523-p4zgy4.html

    ***”Mr. O’Gorman” – no other description!
    WWF: Dermot O’Gorman, Chief Executive Officer (Earth Hour organiser; anti-Adani)
    I started my working career with the NSW Parks & Wildlife Service and, after studying in London, joined WWF in the UK in 1998. I have been with WWF ever since!
    During nearly two decades with WWF I’ve been very fortunate to work in conservation all over the world, including as CEO of WWF-China, CEO of WWF-Pacific and, since 2010, back home as CEO of WWF-Australia…

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  • #
    pat

    subscription required:

    23 May: CarbonPulse: Another group of carbon trading fraudsters convicted by French court
    All 36 people on trial over a €385-million tax fraud using the EU carbon market have been convicted by a Paris court.

    no English coverage; all French MSM have it. following appears to be at least partly an AFP report, which is not available, as yet, if ever, in English:

    (rough translation)
    23 May: Archynewsy: Record fraud on carbon tax: nine years in prison for a former teacher from Marseille
    A former math teacher, Christiane Melgrani, was sentenced Wednesday in Paris to nine years in prison and a fine of three million euros, after the “carbon tax” fraud trial of which she was the main prevented.
    This charismatic sexagenarian was considered one of the three main actors of this colossal fraud by which 385 million euros were subtracted from the French tax authorities between 2008 and 2009.

    This component of 385 million, in which 36 defendants were judged from the end of January to the end of March, is the most spectacular. It takes root in the Marseille district of the Basket and stretches between a myriad of shell companies and offshore accounts.
    The National Financial Prosecutor’s Office had identified three main actors in this fraud: Christiane Melgrani, Gérard Chetrit, and Eric Castiel, targeted by an arrest warrant.
    They were sentenced to the heaviest penalties for organized fraud, aggravated money laundering and, for Ms. Melgrani, criminal conspiracy.

    Nicknamed “Ma Dalton” or “The Godmother of the Basket” in the press, the 59-year-old Marseillaise, who has been re-offending and in pretrial detention, was sentenced for her role in the swindle from a “test” phase in 2006 and in the laundering the proceeds of this fraud committed via two brokers on the “carbon quota” market. The PNF took 12 years… ETC

    The 33 other defendants, involved to varying degrees, were sentenced to suspended sentences to six years in prison and 200,000 euros fine.
    The court has condemned most of them to bans on managing.
    http://archynewsy.com/record-fraud-on-carbon-tax-nine-years-in-prison-for-a-former-teacher-from-marseille/

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    pat

    comment re new carbon banned f-word conviction in France in moderation.

    23 May: ClimateChangeNews: US launches nuclear initiative to cut carbon with Canada, Japan, UK
    While the Trump administration generally avoids discussion of climate change, it is participating in a coalition to promote “clean, reliable” nuclear power
    By Karl Mathiesen
    The US, Canada and Japan are to create a coalition aimed at promoting nuclear power as a carbon-free energy source around the world.
    The UK is also taking part, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Beis) confirmed to Climate Home News on Wednesday…

    The Nuclear Innovation: Clean Energy (Nice) partnership will be launched on Thursday at a ministerial summit being held in Copenhagen and Malmö.
    In a blog post on his department’s website, US deputy energy secretary Dan Brouillette called for countries to work together for a “Nice Future”…

    Around 50 nuclear reactors are under construction around the world, many of them in China, India, UAE and Russia. Brouillette said more than a dozen other governments had expressed interest in joining the Nice partnership. These include Poland, Romania, UAE, Russia and Argentina, according to the WNA…READ ALL
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2018/05/23/us-launches-nuclear-initiative-cut-carbon-canada-japan-uk/

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    pat

    22 May: CarbonBrief: Guest post: Don’t shift the goalposts of Paris Agreement’s temperature limits
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-dont-shift-the-goalposts-of-paris-agreements-temperature-limits
    Authors:
    Dr Carl-Friedrich Schleussner is head of climate science and impacts at Climate Analytics, Dr Joeri Rogelj is a research scholar at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) in Austria, and Dr Matthias Mengel is a postdoctoral scholar at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research.

    As there are a number of different observed datasets for global temperature – as well as methods that use climate models – it means different studies can arrive at different assessments.
    But therein lies a problem. If studies use a different dataset or method from the one that underpins the Paris limits – established in the IPCC’s fifth assessment report (AR5) – they are potentially tracking something different from 1.5C or 2C.
    To provide consistent information for policymakers – and not inadvertently shift goal posts – new research needs to be linked to the science underlying the Paris Agreement…

    A blind spot in the scientific debate
    The Paris Agreement represented a step-change not only for climate policy, but also for climate science. It provides an important new signpost for climate scientists who want to link their research to policy…

    Keeping this original intention for the temperature limits in mind is essential. In our new paper, published in Environmental Research Letters (LINK), we examine the reasons why…
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-dont-shift-the-goalposts-of-paris-agreements-temperature-limits

    22 May: Scientific American: How the “Carbon Budget” Is Causing Problems
    Confusion over how much CO2 can be emitted could undermine global climate action
    By Chelsea Harvey, E&E News
    “The carbon budget—you could say it was oversold, it was oversimplified,” said Glen Peters, research director at the Centre for International Climate and Environmental Research in Norway. “The focus became on one number, whatever that number was. And so people started to think of the carbon budget as some unique number that’s almost like a property of the climate system.”

    In reality, he notes, the carbon budget is more complex than a magic number. Depending on which study is referenced—and the models it employs, the assumptions it relies on and a vast number of other methodological choices—the number may change.

    That’s fairly normal to scientists. But to policymakers, the array of different carbon budgets currently debated among researchers may be confusing…READ ON
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-carbon-budget-is-causing-problems/

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    pat

    22 May: SMH: Darren Gray: Adani looks to Rothschild to sell slice of its coal port operations
    Indian mining heavyweight Adani has appointed investment bank Rothschild to sell a stake in its Abbot Point port operations in Queensland in a move sources said could help it raise funds for the controversial Carmichael coal mine.
    The Indian miner, which is planning to build the proposed Carmichael mine in Queensland’s Galilee Basin, is also understood to be looking for a second investment bank to work on the sale, and has asked banks to pitch for it, according sources familiar with the matter…

    The port is an important asset on the Queensland coast and is used by the state’s coal industry including Anglo-Swiss miner Glencore. In 2016-17, about 25.4 million tonnes of coal mined by the Queensland coal industry was exported from it. So far this financial year, about 23.2 million tonnes of coal have been transported through the port…

    When contacted this week a spokeswoman for Adani declined to comment. A spokesman for Rothschild also declined to comment…

    Protests against the mine in Australia’s capital cities have attracted large crowds.
    PROTEST PHOTO: (HALF A DOZEN PEOPLE, NO “LARGE” IN CAPTION) CAPTION: The project has attracted protests
    https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/adani-looks-to-rothschild-to-sell-slice-of-its-coal-port-operations-20180522-p4zgu9.html

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    DD

    What costs are being compared here – nameplate or medium term, say one month, deliverable power?
    Don’t be sloppy and disingenuous Snowy Hydro, show us both measures.

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    pat

    hypocrisy:

    22 May: PacificStandardMag: How California Undercuts Its Efforts to Combat Climate Change
    A new report details how California’s bold plans to reduce oil consumption and meet the goals of the Paris Agreement could be canceled out by the state’s own oil production.
    by Kate Wheeling
    California Governor Jerry Brown has long been calling for drastic action on climate change, which he has called an “existential threat” to the state, the country, and the world…

    But a new report (LINK) out today from a coalition of environmental advocacy groups details one major oversight in California’s climate policies that could undermine its climate efforts: oil production…

    Indeed, California is second only to Texas in the amount of oil extracted since 1900, and California crude is some of the dirtiest oil on the planet; much of what remains in the state’s reserves is thick as peanut butter, and energy intensive to both extract and refine…

    While research shows that any expansion of oil production would exceed the planet’s carbon budget—the amount of greenhouse gases that nations around the globe can emit and still keep temperature increases below two degrees Celsius—California continues to issue new drilling permits. During Brown’s tenure, permit approvals by the state’s Division of Oil, Gas, and Geothermal Resources reached a 30-year peak in 2015. Over the course of his administration, DOGGR has issued nearly 20,000 well permits…

    California is one of a minority of oil states with no legally mandated buffer zone between structures like homes, schools, or hospitals and active oil and gas wells. Fourteen percent of the population—some 5.4 million people—live within a mile of a well. And it’s one of only two states in the nation without a production or severance tax on the oil and gas industry—a “de facto subsidy” for the fossil fuel industry, according to the report…
    https://psmag.com/environment/how-california-undercuts-its-efforts-to-combat-climate-change

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    MuzoftheRiverina

    Talk about BS, this nation has at its disposal the worlds largest “Battery Storage” in its almost inexhaustible supply of beautiful black coal of the most superior quality in the world.

    …….and what are our powers that be doing, everything except getting on with making use of it.

    What a disaster. Reliability factor for coal, 100%, reliability factor for wind, 27%, reliability factor solar 30%. We need our “heads read” if we allow this farce to continue on to its inevitable conclusion, which is the economic downfall of this nation.

    God help us

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    Brian the Engineer

    Has anyone actually modelled how Snowy 2.0 would work. It relies on excess energy to drive the water back up the hill. This used to be excess baseload at night. Once baseload is destroyed will there be usable constant energy available to reliably drive the water uphill. If we are relying on intermittent wind this may not work particularly when solar will be unavailable at night when the demand is minimal. Realistically wind is the only renewable available at night when the pumps need to work?

    If this has been modelled it should be made available for scrutiny and the required number of wind turbines factored into the lifecycle costs of the whole scheme.

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    ROM

    The Snowy Scheme in its totality is now getting on to be over half a century old since most of its infrastructure was built mostly by post WW2 refugees from every region of Europe.

    A brief report I heard some time ago claimed that the current proposal for updating the Snowy scheme was considered by the Snowy Mountains Authority at the time around the early 1960′s but it was considered to be a difficult project and would add so little economic value to the Scheme that it wasn’t worth going ahead with

    As is so usual here in Australia we are once again seeing the politicals in all their stupidity leaping onto another band wagon without ever even giving any prior thought [ "prior thought" is an oxymoron for our politicals and bureacrats and green elites ] or any deep research into the project before they open their big gobs and begin espousing the project.

    By the time that Snowy Two is completed and operational in at least ten years time , my guess [ prediction??? ] is that the global and Australian honeymoon with renewable energy will long have seen the Divorce on a global scale well under way.

    The poster child for renewable energy is Germany and every time recently that I have read of the German progress with its “energweinde”, the “transition to renewable energy” there is an ever increasing amount of doubt and straight out cynicsm’ and increasing condemnation on the chances of renewable energy ever having any more than a part time and longer term relatively small impact on Germany’s ultimate energy requirements.
    As well Germany’s CO2 emmissions just keep on going up despite the installation of some 27,000 wind turbines in Germany alone, an area around 50% larger overall than Victoria .

    Unlike the USA’s emmissions which just keep on falling as there are few regulations under Trump that hold back innovation in energy generation and emmissions control and mitigation.
    .

    Sobriety Returning To Germany…Leaders Finally Realizing Green Energies Are Fraught With Huge Obstacles

    It is only now, after the construction of over 100 gigawatts of power generation capacity, that the realization is beginning to take hold that the expansion of ambient energies is not getting us closer to the purpose of replacing chemical energy sources.”

    Unlike Australia , Germany also has neighbours all around it that Germany can draw power from if their renewables are just idling along due tolack of wind and / or sunshine.

    Conversely when the renewables were generating too much power for the Germans to use themselves, they either dumped it into the neighbour’s grids, now stopped by the neighbours installing phase shifting transformers along their borders to stop German dumping of excess power and destabilising their own grids.
    Or as is now being done in Germany, England and Scotland, pay wind farm owners a hefty subsidy to NOT generate power.

    So the writing is on the wall for renewable energy in the long term.
    And we here inAustralkai ill just about be hitting our peak expenditure and installations and all sorts of battery installations , all at prices and costs that are likelly to bankrupt a lot of citizens and all around the same time as the rest of the world closes down its renewable energy systems and programs in tis disillusionment and endeavours to claw back some of the expenditure they have avished on the renewable energy scammers and shysters over the decades.
    ——————
    And to make that writing in even stronger hues we have this from the “NoTricksZone” blog, an item on solar panel life that I have expressed deep doubts about for some time past here on Jo’s blog.

    This one is a real nasty doozy that might just cause a very large number of people with solar panels installed some very sleepless nights within a decade or so, especially if it frightens the politicians who have handed out all that tax payers moola to individuals to install solar panels and they tryn to cover their asses by a slew of new nasty regulations which I fear will be the case as the heavy metals, cadmium and lead in solar panels, broken or otherwise, will become a major item in the disposal of..

    The politicals will be right at the forefront in covering their asses if this following article and research on solar panels becomes reality and I for one can’t see why it won’t.

    New Study: Solar Module Owners Sitting On A Pile Of Hazardous Lead And Cadmium

    Dubbed as a clean source of energy, new research findings show that home and property owners producing “clean, CO2-neutral” solar electricity with solar modules may in fact soon find themselves sitting on a pile of hazardous waste once the module lifetime expires.
    &
    Welt reports that researchers in Stuttgart checked if toxic substances could be transported from the modules to the environment by water. Welt writes:
    &
    Contrary to earlier assumptions, the result shows that hazardous material such as lead or carcinogenic cadmium from broken pieces of solar modules could be completely washed out by rain water of a period of several months.”
    &
    The researchers say that currently there are about 3700 square kilometers of solar modules installed globally and estimate that, as of 2016, the modules contained 11,000 tons of lead and 800 tons of cadmium, reports Welt, citing the study.

    Cadmium is pretty nasty stuff to get involved in over a longer term.
    Unspoken but those who collect drinking water from the roof and have a broken solar panel as will happen as the panels age, then their health and the health of anybody regularly drinking that” rain water” will really be at risk.
    Lead of course is another to be avoided toxic metal even in moderate concentrations.
    ………………….

    “The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”

    Omar Khayyám

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  • #
    Robber

    Snowy 2 Secrecy Snow Job.
    See my comment #14 above on the Snowy Business Case that keeps secret the business case. A classic case of “Yes Minister, we have published the business case”. But, but, the economic chapters are blank. Ah, yes minister, that is classified information.
    A few years ago we had good investigative journalists who would publish an exposé in a weekend paper, a magazine, or on TV (yes, I can even remember when the ABC’s Four Corners did good fearless non-political analysis).
    So here is a starting point for any good investigative journalist out there, or even for an inquisitive politician in a parliamentary inquiry or a question during question time.
    Q1. Why are Snowy Hydro and the Prime Minister keeping secret the Snowy 2 business case economic assumptions?
    Q2. In Victoria, just 2 years ago the wholesale electricity price was $46/Mwhr, this year it is $93. What are the assumed wholesale prices in the Snowy 2 business case by year that demonstrate the delivery of affordable electricity?
    Q3. As a pumped hydro system, Snowy 2 will have to buy electricity at times of lower demand – midday, overnight – to pump the water up the hill. How much more power will be used versus how much will be delivered for the evening peak demand?
    Q4. For years 1, 5 and 10 of Snowy 2 operation, what is the assumed mix of wind/solar/hydro/coal/gas providing power to the grid at peak/offpeak times?
    Q5. As long as coal/gas are in the mix, Snowy 2 will be effectively buying power from those coal/gas generators during offpeak times, and then forcing those generators to go idle during peak times. So where are the savings?

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  • #
    Rob Leviston

    Snowy 2.0 is smoke and mirrors. A net user of power. The best efficiency for pumped hydro is 80%. Typically, it will be lower than this. So, once filled, the dams will supply up to 2000Mw/Hr for up to a week. Sounds impressive! But, to get the water there initially, will take the equivalent of 2400Mw/hr, or more! So the only way this scheme can possibly make money, is by having a large cost differential, between the cost of the power used to pump the water, and the price derived from the power produced back to the grid! methinks this a scheme that will never amortize its construction or running costs!
    As a ‘battery’, its better than Tesla’s offerings, but hardly cost effective!
    Much better to build a new power plant, preferably coal, or even nuclear.
    (BTW, I haven’t done any sums, but in my head, I don’t even think it will come close to break even. Maybe I’m wrong?)

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  • #

    Snowy Hydro needs to show their calculations on how their pumped storage capacity can power the Eastern seaboard for the typical 14 days of low winds in winter, in a drought year.

    After all, their promises must be backed by rational analysis.

    20

  • #
    Doc

    I watched part of the Outsiders program this morning (got up late), with Jo as guest. I have been thinking lately that what has been missed entirely is the
    solar science forecast of a coming Little / Big (?) new cooling period. Even the true believers don’t argue the point; they merely say it will do little to interrupt global warming trends, their basis of which, rising CO2 will continue.
    Despite Marr’s hockey stick connotations, Jo made a salient reference to the global warming period around the year 1000AD and the disaster of the following
    cold period with deaths from starvation and the Plague (close living). The point is, we are feeding a huge world population currently primarily by advances in plant genetics and farming methodology, supported by rising CO2 and warm temperatures which are also expanding the arable acreage.

    How do the moves to renewables with our discarding of fossil fuels energise our power grid in a mini ‘Ice Age’. Even ‘Hydro2′ could become a frozen white elephant. Then there is the cold effect on food production and transport. It seems that even the warmers accept there may be a possible cooling period, the depth of which is unknown. There appears to be absolutely no dropping of the penny that the beneficial effects of warming being taken for granted now will one day come to an end – and that is forecast via solar science sun cycles to be sometime very soon.

    Nobody is even considering those consequences which could result in the biggest depopulation the world has ever seen. For us to be suspended on the frayed end of a renewables mania string is incomprehensible in the face of such a generally accepted threat.

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    • #
      Annie

      Perhaps they have considered it Doc and the nonsense with so-called ‘renewables’ is totally deliberate, to knock out most of the human race. What works against the common good is simply evil.

      10

  • #
    Lack of willingness

    Here is a survey for each of the people that produce or read this material

    Is the energy world under
    a) a conspiracy where big government is pushing us to renewables
    b) are the costs of renewables cheaper, just false marketing
    c) is energy you cant see like wind or solar, just people using their imagination
    or
    d) is science and technology just for big kids that used to like mechano sets

    00