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So what? 15,000 scientists sign warning but 30,000 scientists are skeptics*

Skeptical scientists outnumber the unskeptical ones

The “News” today: 15,000 scientists have signed some 25 year old repeat failed climate doom prediction. Headlines are everywhere.

So today is also the perfect day to point out that ten years ago 31,487 American Scientists, including 9,029 with PhD’s signed the Global Warming Petition Project warning that there is no convincing scientific evidence that man-made CO2 will cause catastrophic heating, and that agreements like Kyoto (and Paris) are harmful, and hinder science.

Opinion polls are a measure of sociology rather than science, but since skeptics win them, go forth and spread the word and shine a light on media bias, as well as on the large unheralded mass of skeptical scientists across the world.

The Petition Project was better done, done years ago, done twice, and has twice as many names on it.

Don’t miss the opportunity to pop in on the same journalists that think a list of 15,000 scientists doing a ten second internet form is newsworthy, but 30,000 checked and accredited scientists signing and mailing a paper form is not. Let them bask in their hypocrisy. Turn the screws on their cognitive dissonance. Be polite. Enjoy their struggle.

For the most part, the media actively ignored 30,000 scientists probably because it didn’t fit with their religion, their own voting preferences, or because they were afraid people they call “friends” might call them a names and stop inviting them to dinner. Cowards. (Let’s talk about being brave: Art Robinson, who organised the Petition Project, later ran for Congress, and his three youngest children all had their PhD’s simultaneously canceled, snatched or dismissed by none other than Oregon State University — the same place that this new “poll” is hosted — OSU. That kind of industrial bullying and entrenched corruption is what keeps the weak and gullible following the line. Which journalist that “Fights for the Planet” is brave enough to speak up for one PhD student?)

Fallacies piled on hypocrisy

The Petition Project was supposedly debunked because only 0.1% of the signers have a background in climate or meteorology. But if we must play that game, the skeptical petition lists 341 meteorologists, but I notice the believers list only has 32 people with “meteo” in their qualifications or institute. Watch the commentators shoot down the doomsday poll for the same reason. Or watch …crickets.

Being serious for a moment, the real proportion of skeptical meteorologists is more like 50:50 according to proper polls. When will believer-journalists admit the awful truth that climate scientists — many of whose careers hinge on the importance of a “crisis” — are so pathetically unconvincing that they can’t even persuade half of meteorologists that their predictions are meaningful?

Just because climate scientists have a vested interest doesn’t mean they are wrong, but on what planet are smart honest climate scientists unable to convince even meteorologists?

Mindless Stats on the Doomsday Warning signatories

Fully 3,000 or 20% of these scientists are ecologists and 20% have “biology” in their qualification or job title. If “Orthopaedic Surgeons” views on climate don’t count, why does a “legume” specialist matter? Let’s hear the scientific debate on that one. Should we rank scientific disciplines, score points, conduct polls and see which theory makes a touch-down?

In other curious stats, the Petition Project included only Americans, but the doomsday poll is 80% non-US^.  Apparently believers had to reach all over the world to collect up even half the names that skeptics assembled.  Other national keyword tallies in the doomsday poll include Brazil: 1,799; Kenya: 47; Nigeria – 23: Cuba – 6.

Rah.Rah.Rah. These kinds of numbers are meaningless in so many ways. A simple word search will turn up phrases in the names, titles, and institutes. There are double counts. People who qualified in one area, work in another. People with Nobel Prizes in physics get called “deniers” while people with no science qualifications get given Nobel Peace Prizes.

Consensus science is a fallacy from the start.

Read more about the remarkable man that is Art Robinson, a biomedical researcher who lost his wife tragically young, but as well as all the other things he achieved, he raised their six kids and also set up a homeschooling curriculum used by thousands of children. Inspiring.

REFERENCES

Bart Strengers, Bart Verheggen and Kees Vringer (2015) Climate Science Survey, Questions and Responses, PBL Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency, pp 1 – 39.

^ A simple keyword search:

  • 2,974 mentions of the United States of America
  • 2.944 have “ecol….” in their job title. (Another 53 have Ecotoxicology)
  • 2,732 have “biol” in their title or in their department/company.
  • 1,472 are students of which 33 are Masters level, 938 are PhD level and who knows (who cares) what the rest are.
  • 143 have “sustain” — as in sustainable, sustainability.
  • Climat* = 153
  • meteo* = 32
  • atmos*  = 47

*It’s all a fallacy. Just stop!

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Rating: 9.6/10 (107 votes cast)
So what? 15,000 scientists sign warning but 30,000 scientists are skeptics*, 9.6 out of 10 based on 107 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/ycojeo46

162 comments to So what? 15,000 scientists sign warning but 30,000 scientists are skeptics*

  • #
    King Geo

    In ~ 10 years those 15,000 scientists will have no credibility because the “Death Knell of AGW (LIA)” should be underway by then. The question is who is going to name & shame these scientists, I mean “pseudoscientists”? As Newtons 3rd Law states “To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction”.

    331

    • #
      el gordo

      ‘…who is going to name & shame these scientists…’

      We’ll know who they are by the papers they have written.

      Rumour mongers in China face a four year sentence, which is a bit harsh, so I suggest a tongue lashing and public humiliation. Then give them the sack.

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      • #
        Sceptical Sam

        The top two for me on the list from Australia are these:

        Carmichael, Terry
        Science Commincation
        Wildlife Conservancy of Tropical Queensland
        Australia

        Which indicates his understanding of science is no better than his attention to detail.

        And this poor chap convinces me that the Australian secondary education system doesn’t teach science but ideology:

        Brecknell, Cohen
        Student
        Trinity Bay State High School
        Australia

        And, the usual suspects are still there (asterisked no less) even after 25 years of refutation of their “science”; which affirms that it’s not science but ideology.

        Lots of Australian vets on the list. No doubt they believe that the 100-year linear trend (1906-2005) of 0.74 C° [0.56 C° to 0.92 C°] increase in temperature is inimical to your pet’s health. They must read the UK Tele:

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/climatechange/5429593/Climate-change-could-kill-your-pet-warns-the-RSPCA.html

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        • #
          GreatAuntJanet

          The list included high school students?

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          • #
            Ken Stewart

            One high school student, 5 high school teachers (one of them retired).
            13 educators
            67 psychologists
            5 psychiatrists
            20 pharmacists/ pharmaceutical science/ pharmacology
            a couple of dozen astronomers/astrophysicists (hard to separate from “Castro” in names)
            107 anthropologists
            2 artists!
            11 designers (or technology and design)
            12 administrators
            40 pathologists
            73 humanity/ human* (human ecology etc)
            95 “medical”
            7 photographers
            3 emergency physicians
            3 anaesthetists
            4 surgeons
            100 vets
            13 political scientists/ ecologist
            2 activists (wildlife and environmental)
            33 neuroscientists
            One homeopath/ naturopath
            65 agriculture
            47 sociologists
            One dentist
            3 journalists
            3 radiologists
            6 nurses (or in nursing)
            4 paediatricians
            9 gynacologists
            1 endocrinologist
            2 legal eagles
            10 architects
            1 navigator (!)

            I could go on.

            I copied the list on the website into a Word document.)

            Ken

            140

          • #
            Ken Stewart

            And of the 31 meteorologists, there were really only 27. A swag- all from New Zealand- were entered TWICE.

            100

      • #
        Yonniestone

        To be qualified in your field but not highly regarded is usually enough to relegate you to lower positions or with others of similar ilk, in other word s#it sicks, however the ones that have gained the highest notoriety and financial gain should be treated in the same vein as the Bond’s or Skase’s of the world where respect and position of power is stripped leaving their persona exposed for all to see.

        When those not fit to lead or speak for others are given the protection of misrepresented powers they have a voice, pull down the curtain and people will see many small people speaking through large megaphones.

        90

  • #
    RickWilll

    Not really on topic-

    Does anyone visiting here have access to the OLR from a coupled GCM at a 1X1 degree grid? So far I have not been able to find that data on the web.

    40

  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    The problem with opinion surveys, is that they canvas the opinions of people who A) Like to participate in opinion surveys; or B) Feel they have something to gain by going with the central meme of the survey; or C) Both of the above.

    As such, they are meaningless.

    270

    • #
      Peter C

      True, utterly meaningless.

      It becomes clearer if the actual questions are published. That does not often happen.

      170

    • #
      me@home

      Rereke, I always reuse to sign petitions because they are meaningless. There have been numerous examples of people signing competing petitions for and against some proposition – whether to get the pests off their back or to signal virtue or whatever, I don’t know.

      20

  • #
    TdeF

    This is a good sign that they are losing the plot and the argument, an attempt to rerun an old scare. They have run out of time and completely out of credibility. Really who believes any of it now after 30 years of emergency. Which of their terrible end of world predictions have come true? Why are people still dressing up as Polar bears?

    Even Arnold Schwarznegger yesterday said they should worry about (real) pollution which is “killing 25,000 people a day.” Where do they get this stuff? That also tells you climate change is now an old, worn out story lacking any real credibility. The Rapture which never happened. The ten year predictions which fizzled. Then Donald Trump happened.

    Now apparently we are all going to die for sure in 2100, 83 years from now? Send more billions to the UN and friends like Robert Mugabe and all the tin pot dictators. Really? The Global Warming promoters have given up and just going around with the hat again. Only children listen to this nonsense, but at least they will learn not to believe everything adults say.

    Then “Al Gore’s “An Inconvenient Sequel: Truth to Power” failed to resonate with many viewers.

    The Washington Times reported Monday that the film, which is a follow-up to the 2006 Oscar-winning documentary “An Inconvenient Truth,” reached the 15th spot at the box office in its first weekend since being released on July 28.

    The publication added the movie, which focuses on climate change, earned about $1 million. “An Inconvenient Truth” made nearly $50 million at the box office.”

    So the party is over. Can we sell those windmills and solar panels for which we pay $6Bn a year, every year? Sorry, I forget we don’t even own them. Thanks for nothing politicians, people who say they cannot even read or understand a very simple form.

    It’s seems to be our fault that so many Australian politicians lied on a simple form with a 1 year mandatory jail sentence, but why should politicians tell the truth? They write the laws. They are not bound by them. Jaqui’s father did not suddenly realise he was Scottish. Nor did she. Self interest always wins, even in science and the truth is the greatest casualty.

    370

    • #
      TdeF

      As for skeptic, as Rene Descartes concluded, skepticism is the natural home of the Rational Scientist. Then empiricism. Then understanding based on incontrovertible proofs. To be accused of being an skeptic is the highest compliment for any scientist. To the left of politics, it is just name calling without any sense of irony.

      I just bought a British mathematics book printed in 1836, a translation of a French text. This was the year Galileo Gailei was jailed in 1833 for not only arguing that the earth was not at the centre of the sun, but also for mapping sunspots which his primitive telescope showed both that the sun was imperfect and also rotating. This offended the clergy as the old religion of Sol was still underlying the church. They were the experts in science.

      It was also a time of great change, during the time of Charles I and prior to the rise of Oliver Cromwell. He ultimately died of malaria, which was a curse in the Northern latitudes, prior to Global Warming.

      Anyway it is a thrill to see how people tried to build rational science on mathematics and pure logic, which trying not to offend the great religious powers, like the UN. Rene Descartes died in 1650 but had changed the world forever with his idea of coordinates, his formula, the ideas later people like Isaac Newton needed.

      To read the stories of the Church of Climate Change, Climatology, means in essence nothing has changed. Rich and powerful Bureaucrats still try to scare the people with fantasies. Poll based science.

      240

      • #
        TdeF

        Sorry, so many mistakes. The book was printed in 1636. Galileo was jailed three years before under house arrest. Sun worship was still alive. Now in the enlightened 21st century it is earth worship, Gaia. You can all list the high priests. All make a great living from it.

        Then you get the Carbon indulgences, significant on the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther nailing his ninety-five theses on the 31st October 1517, his points of discussion, on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg. The document was in Latin and invited other scholars to debate the statements set out.

        I also have a copy of a contemporary text in Latin, a printed debate with Martin Luther. You would think that in this age of science and enlightenment, we would not be told what to think by opinion polls.

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      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Im pleased that 2/3 of engineers ae sceptics, but equally horrified that 1/3 arent…..which means that same 1/3 of them should be drummed out of the Regiment, as it were…..

        Im not against people holding different views to me, i am horrified that engineers hold illogical views though…..

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        • #
          Graeme No.3

          OriginalSteve:

          They might be in an employment situation where being a known sceptic could have adverse effects.

          200

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            I recall stories of people being given yellow feathers by strangers in the streets, for being in civilian clothes because they refusing to enlist in WW1 and WW2 for certain personal reasons.

            I always worry about such things…the power of peer pressure and a community of well meaning, but likely ignorant people…..

            30

            • #
              Graeme No.3

              White feathers were used because they were cheaper and more readily available. It led to some memorable scenes when servicemen on leave were given one.

              But an idle thought makes me wonder what would hapen if we started handing out green feathers to the gullible. Possibly being charged with attempting to suppress their right to suppress our rights.

              50

              • #
                Will Janoschka

                Possibly being charged with attempting to suppress their right to suppress our rights.

                Huh???

                10

              • #
                Graeme No.3

                Will,
                the AGW gullibles are keen to have only their views seen or heard. Look at the various sites where you get rejected if your views are in line with what they preach. If they could, they would make it illegal to oppose them. Look at their attempts with Andrew Bolt and Bill Leak and those students in Qld.

                40

              • #
                Will Janoschka

                Graeme No.3 November 15, 2017 at 3:38 pm

                Will,the AGW gullibles are keen to have only their views seen or heard. Look at the various sites where you get rejected if your views are in line with what they preach. If they could, they would make it illegal to oppose them. Look at their attempts with Andrew Bolt and Bill Leak and those students in Qld.

                I am; therefor, I beleive\think, I know! Just like the AGW guillibles! If we keep on, suppressing the rights of the right, and\or suppressing the rights of the left; will we have only the left or the right left? My God, I did it to myself!! :-)

                10

        • #
          King Geo

          My son is an engineer and he thinks “AGW” is nonsense (like his dad who is a geologist). Any geo who actually knows his subject matter well will be appalled by the “Theory of AGW”. Put simply AGW is a myth – at least in the eyes of most engineers & geologists.

          350

          • #
            John

            I’m also and Engineer and believe AGW is utter politically-driven nonsense. In addition, I vow to ensure my children do not continue through their respective educations becoming indoctrinated to the AGW religion, as I’m sure their curricula is intended. Hopefully at least one will listen as he is also on the Engineering track.

            71

            • #
              Manfred

              And there’s the rub! … hopefully one will listen.
              It bemuses, astounds, vexes, annoys and enrages me that so many ‘edukated’ people simply won’t listen, or more accurately appear insufficiently interested to listen, and yet, they possess an elegant sufficiency of opinion to phart mindless ‘agreement’ because the TV / radio / MSM say so.

              These days, any vomitus through conventional MSM is by definition a red flag, until proved otherwise

              30

            • #
              sophocles

              John:
              the compulsory Thermodynamics papers should fix him, thoroughly.

              10

            • #
              Ted O’Brien.

              It’s politically driven, but it’s not nonsense. It’s a scam, purposely designed as a tool to bring about the abolition of private management of industry, and the private ownership of capital. And it is working very well for its design purpose.

              Did you notice that the original proposal for an ETS, which but for Barnaby Joyce would have been introduced by the Howard government, was determined to tax Agriculture’s recycled “emissions” on the same basis as fossil emissions? They studiously refused to allow credits for the sequestration side of Ag’s carbon cycle.

              That proposal was never renounced. It was put in the “too hard” basket for later on.

              20

          • #
            Dennis

            Considering that UN Officials have admitted that it is not about the environment, it’s about socialism attacking capitalism as the world has know it, clearly “AGW” is nonsense.

            Politics, wealth redistribution and wealth creation for insiders.

            91

          • #
            Phil R

            King Geo,

            I’m a geologist too, and also think AGW is nonsense. Fortunately, I think I’m also influencing my two sons (one a Junior in college, the other a senior in high school)about the ridiculousness of AGW (or worse, climate change).

            91

            • #
              King Geo

              Phil R,

              My son is mid 30′s now – he worked out the ridiculousness of AGW while at Uni back in the early 2000′s – we often chat about it and like I he is trying to convert others – not an easy task given the level of brainwashing they get on a daily basis from the MSM. I have always believed that “Judgement Day” for the “Warmists” will arrive soon after the ravages of the next LIA (predicted late next decade) kick in. The sooner the LIA arrives the better although I must sympathize with those folks living in high latitude N. Hemisphere nations – I am afraid it ain’t going to be pretty judging by the impact of the Maunder & Dalton Minimum LIA’s.

              11

        • #
          toorightmate

          Original Steve,
          My observation is that MOST of the engineering warmists are lazy. They do not read any of the scientific/technical papers on the topic, nor do any calculations themselves. They are happy to go along to go along with MSN, CNN, Sydney Morning Hamas, ABC, NY Times, WaPo and any other leftist mouthpiece.

          221

          • #
            TdeF

            Incredibly the most gullible are medical doctors. They mean well. Caring people. They have been trained since childhood to believe everything they are told. As my cardiologist friend says, he only has time to read headlines. Especially in the Melbourne Age.

            There are people who rely on the media to tell the truth, especially the ABC with its charter of impartiality. That is why the $1.3Billion a year we pay for impartial ABC news is a complete waste of money. Plus those hundreds of CSIRO scientists studying Climate Change. Plus all the public servants, council emloyees, consultants who make a living as ‘environmentalists’, which has come to mean spreading the word that CO2 is poisonous. They can’t tell pollution from water vapour.

            230

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              Yeah well that explains the cholesterol myth being so entrenched…..and insurance companies are only too happy to make a *lot* of money from faulty science as they piggy back off said myth……

              I suspect the old joke about science andvancing one funeral at a time might also apply to the medical profession too….

              80

              • #
                TdeF

                Not so sure, of Irish Scottish descent you are doomed to atherosclerosis. Others like the French, Italians, Danes can eat all the cheese they want. The Scots should stick to porridge. After the ABC presented that scurrilous report on the cholesterol ‘myth’, my brother went off his statins. He just had a five way bypass. The problem with generalities is that they are not right.

                60

              • #
                OriginalSteve

                TdeF I do read fairly widely. Your brother is kind of a small sample size….

                One case I read about heart disease made a loose conneciton with stress and heart disease.

                I always come back tot he infamous Framingham study and its sample picked data. While yes, some races are predisposd to certain ailments, how much of it is cultural and how much DNA? The Italians have a nice communal and fairly relaxed life, which usually leads to lower stress levels, whereas most westerners live a lot apart from other group/family members and value money over la dolce vita….

                Its a complex mix, and statins can induce heart attacks, so….

                40

              • #
                Manfred

                ahem … Big Pharma … $$$$$$$$$

                Just remember, 50% of individuals who have their second heart attack have a normal cholesterol level, normal BMI, are are normotensive.

                Arguably the best insurance, ensure your CRP <1

                20

            • #
              Greg Cavanagh

              Doctors work hard to get where they are, sure. I understand that it’s a 6 year degree course. But how many calculations do they do in all that time?

              Their skill is in memorising books and procedures. And for surgeons, they have another skill with scalpel and needle.

              I suggest that critical thinking and cause-and-effect thinking is not part of their curriculum, nor a skill set within their profession. That’s the field of engineering.

              130

              • #
                TdeF

                They should know chemistry. I argued with one doctor that none of the oceans were acidic. Silence. I argued that all life is made from CO2. I argued that hot beer is flat beer. It’s easy to win the argument but they do not use their chemistry in their everyday lives.

                My dentist told me about a make believe deep sea diver patient who lost all his teeth because he used bromine in the air for 50 metre dives. I said that would kill him. It’s amazing what people will believe if they do not use their knowledge. The dentists was embarrassed because he knew better. That’s what happens when people lie to you. After many years, when you hear an amazing story, be a skeptic. It is the only way to get to the truth. Evidence first.

                70

              • #
                Manfred

                One could view the usual medical training as an apprenticeship. Once the basic ‘sciences’ and clinical ‘sciences’ are on board it becomes a far more experiential programme. The exercise of clinical acumen requires experience, knowledge and keen observational skills. So, once the basic knowledge is in place, the theoretical emplacement of science and critical thinking is often suspended in favour of experience, the art of practice, process, politics and relationships.
                Just ask yourself why there exists such a pressing need for ‘evidence based practice’ and why so many medical epidemiologists engage in policy-based evidence or consider climate change an established health risk or can’t tell the difference between a political consensus and science? Hardly the mark of scientific rigour is it? Clinical practice that goes something like, “oh that didn’t work for you. Try this one then” when dealing with an individually unpredictable adverse drug reaction has absolutely nix to do with science.

                For most, the learned critical scientific method was too brief and flew the coup long ago.

                40

            • #
              Len

              Almost all medical “doctors” do not have doctorates. They have double pass bachelor degrees. They don’t have the training that should accompany the designation “Doctor”. There are several proper medical doctors like Ken Fitch, Olympic Games physician and Eagles Medical staff. In the USA they call their bachelor standard degree MD. In the USA their basic sergeant is equivalent to our lance corporal.

              41

              • #
                Annie

                Is it true that in the USA university ‘professors’ are mostly what in England would be simply known as ‘lecturers’? Real professors are rather more.

                30

              • #
                TdeF

                Professor simply means teacher. In Australian universities it is used for someone with administrative responsibilities.

                60

              • #
                toorightmate

                TdeF,
                What about Professors Palmer and Gillard.
                Wonderful learned scholars are those two!

                50

              • #
                Allen Ford

                What about Professors Palmer and Gillard.
                Wonderful learned scholars are those two!

                They fully deserved their accolades. It takes great talent to screw up an entire country!

                71

              • #

                Professors in Australia were supposed to mean a lot – in theory there was only one per department. Top Dog. “Head of School”. But look out for the prefixes Assoc and Adj. While Assoc might mean “next in line” or something, “Adjunct” is for people who may or may not even have a degree, who may have given a few lectures. I would hope its used to reward talent which took a different path, but suspect it’s used to reward those who bring in grant money for some reason (eg NGO).

                I personally know of one adjunct with no qualifications (as far as we can ascertain) who calls himself “Professor” regularly, and in writing.

                111

              • #
                sophocles

                one adjunct with no qualifications (as far as we can ascertain) who calls himself “Professor” regularly, and in writing.

                and what does this `Professor’ profess?
                (My OED is rather amusing defining this word ) :-)

                20

            • #
              Manfred

              High time for Degreenification?

              “Denazification (German: Entnazifizierung) was an Allied initiative to rid German and Austrian society, culture, press, economy, judiciary, and politics of any remnants of the National Socialist ideology (Nazism). It was carried out specifically by removing from positions of power and influence those who had been Nazi Party members and by disbanding or rendering impotent the organizations associated with Nazism.”

              “About 8.5 million Germans, or 10% of the population, had been members of the Nazi Party. Nazi-related organizations also had huge memberships, such as the German Labour Front (25 million), the National Socialists People’s Welfare organization (17 million), the League of German Women, Hitler Youth, the Doctors’ League, and others. It was through the Party and these organizations that the Nazi state was run, involving as many as 45 million Germans in total.”

              Six categories are identified, (based on an 5 point established categorisation used in post-war Germany) that helpfully may be applied to eco-Marxist Greenism today. VI is my suggestion:
              VI. Active resistance. Those demonstrated to have engaged in active resistance will be widely acclaimed, acknowledged and compensated.
              V. Persons Exonerated. No sanctions.
              IV. Followers. Possible restrictions on travel, employment, political rights, plus fines.
              III. Lesser Offenders. Placed on probation for 2–3 years with a list of restrictions. No internment.
              II. Offenders: Activists, Militants, and Profiteers, or Incriminated Persons. Subject to immediate arrest and imprisonment up to ten years performing reparation or reconstruction work plus a list of other restrictions.
              I. Major Offenders. Subject to immediate arrest, death, imprisonment with or without hard labour, plus a list of lesser sanctions.

              20

        • #
          Phil R

          They’re probably environmental and social engineers and, as such, have had a less-than-rigorous education.

          30

        • #
          James Murphy

          As a geologist, I’m disgusted with the numbers of “geologists” who seem to be able to ignore billions of years of history with ease. Really, they should not have passed first year subjects on the topic, let alone getting a degree.

          80

  • #
    Peter C

    Don’t miss the opportunity to pop in on the same journalists that think a list of 15,000 scientists doing a ten second internet form is newsworthy

    The original has a link to some internet site. I went there and there was an invitation to sign up. I did not sign up because the site did not show what I was singing up to!

    180

  • #
    robert rosicka

    You should have signed your dog up as a concerned scientist I believe there is at least one dog on the list .

    170

  • #
    Hanrahan

    The Oregon Petition was one to the US congress, therefore ONLY US citizens were able to respond. Were the 1he 15,000 alarmists mentioned above restricted in this way?

    110

  • #
    Carbon500

    As the late and much-missed Professor Robert Carter pointed out in his book ‘Climate – the Counterconsensus’, many disciplines are needed to form a coherent view of what’s happened in the past and what’s happening now.
    Examples include oceanographers, physicists, botanists, biologists, chemists, geologists and more.
    Those who believe in dangerous man-made global warming often claim that a ‘climate science’ qualification is needed, and that no-one else’s opinions are valid.
    That’s just another feeble way to justify themselves, and betrays how little they’ve studied the subject. Most of those holding such a view I suspect don’t have much of a science background.

    281

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      You must allow for the academic lot, subject to pressure to conform. I have been reading up a little on mass extinctions recently and have been struck by the number of times the ocean has supposedly gone acidic from higher CO2 (which has simultaneously raised earth’s temperature by a considerable amount without reference to Henry’s law), and by the times that the ocean has gone anoxic (i.e. lacking oxygen) causing species to die off (except for all those unmentioned ones that somehow stayed alive). All this B.S. presumably going through peer review.
      It is the phlogiston belief all over again.

      120

  • #

    There may be a number of things more putridly useless than an academic survey, but I can’t think of any right now. Maybe the sticky, half-solid stuff left at the bottom of a dumpster after it’s been tipped. Or maybe not.

    80

  • #
    pat

    the CAGW mob will not tolerate dissent:

    11 Nov: LSE Grantham Research Inst: Bob Ward: BBC programme fooled again by climate change deniers
    The ‘Today’ programme on BBC Radio 4 has again demonstrated that its editor and producers are too easily fooled by the inaccurate and misleading claims of climate change deniers.

    On 11 November, the programme broadcast just after the 7:30 am news bulletin a recorded interview with Myron Ebell, director of the Center for Energy and Environment at the Competitive Enterprise Institute in Washington DC, about the progress of the 23rd session of the Conference of the Parties (COP23) to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, which is taking place in Bonn, Germany…READ THE BITS THAT CAUSED BOB WARD’S HEAD TO EXPLODE…

    This is the latest example of the ‘Today’ programme breaching the BBC’s Editorial Guidelines on accuracy. The decision to interview Mr Ebell seems to have been an act of defiance by the programme’s editor, Sarah Sands, and her producers, following complaints about an interview with Lord Lawson in August…

    The truth is that climate change deniers are finding it far too easy to dupe the ‘Today’ programme into broadcasting their propaganda because the editors and producers seem willing to overlook the need for accuracy in the pursuit of being ‘impartial’ between facts and fictions…

    Earlier this week I wrote a letter to Fraser Steel, Head of Executive Complaints (PDF) (LINK), and David Jordan, Director of Editorial Policy and Standards, to ask them to take stronger action in response to the upheld complaints about the interview with Lord Lawson, with the aim of preventing further breaches of the Editorial Guidelines. I did not expect the flaws in the BBC’s editorial processes to be exploited again so soon. I hope that the BBC will now use this latest breach as an opportunity to tackle the obvious systemic problems at the ‘Today’ programme.
    http://www.lse.ac.uk/GranthamInstitute/news/bbc-programme-foiled-again-by-climate-change-deniers/

    obviously, I cannot vouch for the paper linked below the following piece, but nonetheless, this looks like another case of intolerance by the CAGW mob:

    10 Nov: DesmogUK: Mat Hope: Victory for Journalist as Accuracy Complaint by ‘Contrarian’ Climate Scientist Thrown Out
    Ireland’s Press Ombudsman has ruled that three complaints from a scientist about stories that described him as a “contrarian” and associated him with a network of climate science deniers will not be upheld.
    The decision represents a victory for journalists who challenge statements rejecting the overwhelming consensus of scientific evidence regarding the seriousness of climate change.
    Professor Ray Bates, an adjunct professor of meteorology from University College Dublin, submitted a formal complaint to the Irish Press Ombudsman about two articles in the Village magazine. Today, his appeal against the decision was rejected.
    The articles were penned by environmental journalist John Gibbons, who has previously written on Ireland’s climate science denial network for DeSmog UK…

    In the ruling, the Ombudsman states that:
    “In making a decision about this complaint the Press Ombudsman is not required to take sides in the climate change argument involving Professor Bates and others. In the context of the generally robust arguments between professionally qualified participants in debates such as these, in which opposing opinions are strongly held, the Press Ombudsman is not required to decide which protagonist is correct, but only to decide if any of the Principles of the Code of Practice have been breached.”

    But having considered Bates’ complaint that the Village had disregarded his expertise, the Ombudsman continued:
    “I am conscious that Professor Bates holds views which are at variance with the views of most of the scientific community. This on its own does not necessarily mean that his views can be dismissed. But I can find no evidence that the magazine failed to take reasonable care in checking facts in its research for the articles.”

    The ruling goes on to say that, regarding Bates’ complaint that Gibbons referred to him as a “denier”, “I cannot find any clear statement in the articles that Professor Bates is a climate change denier. Equally I cannot find it stated in the articles that Professor Bates is responsible for ‘makey-uppy’ and ‘propaganda or fake news’. The articles associate him with climate change deniers but do not state that he is himself a denier.”…READ ON

    1 COMMENT ONLY:
    by Fintan Ryan: Perhaps if Professor Ray Bates had allowed himself to be wrongly described as sharing a Nobel Prize, (https://www.foe.ie/blog/aut… had been forced to publicly withdraw a libellious statement he made regarding a fellow scientist (https://www.farmersjournal…. and call the work of that scientist “balderdash” (http://www.rte.ie/radio/rad… and made statements like “we know that the sea level round Ireland will increase by 1 metre in 100 years (http://cdn.radiocms.net/med… he would be lauded by John Gibbons!
    https://www.desmog.uk/2017/11/10/victory-journalist-accuracy-complaint-contrarian-climate-scientist-thrown-out

    19 pages: WileyOnline: Earth & Space Online: AGU Publications: Estimating climate sensitivity using two-zone
    energy balance models
    Author: J. Ray Bates, Meteorology and Climate Centre, School of Mathematics and Statistics, University College Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
    Received 23 DEC 2015
    Accepted 26 APR 2016
    Accepted article online 6 MAY 2016
    Published online 17 MAY 2016
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2015EA000154/epdf

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      OriginalSteve

      I find this amusing :

      “The truth is that climate change deniers are finding it far too easy to dupe the ‘Today’ programme into broadcasting their propaganda because the editors and producers seem willing to overlook the need for accuracy in the pursuit of being ‘impartial’ between facts and fictions…”

      Ah…double edged sword – should accuracy actually be encouraged, the whole warmist nonsesne will rapidly fall apart…..best they not do that, and stick to emotive and hysterical ramblings, yelling at the sky and Aztec Rebirth rituals…..

      Hopefully they wont devolve further and start sacrificing skeptics to volcanoes…..

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    pat

    comment in moderation re: 11 Nov: LSE Grantham Research Inst: Bob Ward: BBC programme fooled again by climate change deniers

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    Ruairi

    A headcount of unskeptical views,
    Is for media bias, big news,
    Who will choose to ignore,
    That for warmists, their score,
    Would be half that of skeptics and lose.

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    TdeF

    There have been great sacrifices made by individuals.

    I have great sympathy for the courage of Prof Murry Salby whose lecture and observations cost him instant dismissal in 2014 with immediate cancellation of his credit cards and return ticket by his employer, Macquarie University. Climate Commission chief Tim Flannery was a professor of environmental sustainability at Macquarie at the time.

    In his famous lecture in Hamburg, he said categorically that CO2 and temperature are not correlated. What he said is transparently true. He did find a fantastic relationship between CO2 and the integral of temperature. His conclusions are true today, that CO2 is controlled by global temperature. CO2 does not control global temperature. It is beyond belief for me that a real professional climate scientist could be fired in such a brutal way for daring to speak the truth.

    So apart from the continuing massive ripoff of Australian electricity users who receive nothing for $6Billion a year in cash, people have suffered. The treatment of Prof Salby was a lesson to anyone who thought of speaking out. It also explains why many of the very public critics are retired, whether from University or NASA or elsewhere.

    The case against Dr. Tim Ball by Dr. Michael Mann is still in the Canadian High Court. It has cost Dr. Ball his life savings. This case could bring the roof down as if he loses with his contempt of court in refusing to supply data he promised, Mann will be found by direct implication to be a criminal. That would lead to the collapse of all Mann cases and total disgrace for the most famous creator of the Hockey stick.

    Then according to Professor Weiss, the next five years should see a rapid drop in world temperature, despite the best efforts of the BOM.

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    pat

    huge story right now…tho MSM is not making connections to “renewables” & CAGW policies:

    13 Nov: CNBC: GE’s dividend cut is the largest ever by a US company outside of the financial crisis
    •GE’s 50 percent dividend cut amounts to $4.1 billion less for investors annually.
    •GE’s cut would be the biggest of all time on a dollar basis outside the financial crisis, according to S&P Global data.
    •GE already owns the largest dividend cut of all time, in 2009 in the wake of the crisis.
    by Bob Pisani

    13 Nov: WSJ: General Electric Cuts Dividend by Half and Slashes Profit Goals
    Industrial giant to revamp board as new CEO pursues restructuring
    By Thomas Gryta
    General Electric Co.’s new leader outlined a restructuring plan that will slash the annual dividend by $4 billion and streamline the industrial giant’s operations, but warned investors it will take years to fix some of the company’s businesses and for profits to begin to improve.
    GE Chief Executive John Flannery lowered earnings targets for 2018 and cautioned that even in 2019 conditions will be difficult, especially in the company’s biggest unit, GE Power…

    FT had something to say prior to the announcement of the dividend cut:

    12 Nov: Financial Times: GE and Siemens: power pioneers flying too far from the sun
    The two industrial titans are struggling to cope with the disruption to their business models from wind and solar
    by Ed Crooks in New York and Patrick McGee in Frankfurt
    Joe Kaeser, chief executive of Siemens, had a provocative question for reporters last Thursday. Did they know how many large gas turbines were ordered in Germany in the past three years? “I’ll tell you,” he said. “A total of two!”…

    GE and Siemens have expanded into areas such as medical equipment, but are still shaped by their roots in electrical energy. It is their traditional core power businesses, which this year account for about a third of industrial revenues for GE and a fifth for Siemens, that have been causing the biggest problems. Profits at Siemens’ power and gas division were down 15 per cent in 2016-17, and orders were down 30 per cent. It is expected soon to announce thousands of job cuts in the 47,000-strong division, to address huge overcapacity in the market for gas turbines…

    GE’s power division has performed even worse. Jeff Bornstein, the chief financial officer who is leaving at the end of the year, told analysts last month that the company’s leaders were “severely disappointed” in the performance of the division, which reported a 51 per cent drop in profits for the third quarter. “The business has been undergoing market changes, and we haven’t changed fast enough with it,” he said.

    Management’s expectations for the third quarter turned out to be wildly optimistic. Sales of aeroderivative gas turbines, used to support grids at times of peak load, were half the planned numbers, while sales of packages for improving the performance of gas-fired plants were just a third of projections.In 2010, market forecasters were assuming there would be about 300 large gas turbines sold each year, but in 2013 just 212 were ordered worldwide. This year, there were 122.

    In the US last year, gas was still the most popular fuel for new generation capacity, narrowly beating wind power. But worldwide GE’s sales of large turbines have dropped, falling from 134 in 2009 to 104 last year.

    “All major vendors got the market wrong,” says James Stettler, analyst at Barclays. The next big worry, he says, is servicing for turbines — once a gold mine but one that is bound to decline as new orders fall. With turbines being sold at no margin or sometimes at a loss, competition for servicing contracts is heating up, further eroding margins.For the foreseeable future, the gas turbine market is likely to remain difficult, according to Jeff Sprague, an analyst at Vertical Research Partners. “I don’t see light at the end of the tunnel in 2019, and there’s no particular reason to think it will be better in 2020,” he says. “The question is whether this is just a cyclical problem, or whether there is something structural in the industry that is really starting to cause problems.”There is good reason to think that it is structural, given the plunge in solar and wind costs.

    Jonathan Mir of the investment bank Lazard, who tracks the costs of renewable energy and electricity storage, says “a combination of rooftop solar and battery storage could make economic sense in India, African countries and other places where they don’t have well-developed power grids”.

    There was $316bn invested in renewable energy worldwide last year, almost three times as much as the $117bn in fossil fuel power generation, according to the International Energy Agency.GE and Siemens have sought to join the renewables revolution, and in wind power they have had some success. GE was the world’s second-largest wind turbine manufacturer last year.

    Siemens acquired the Spanish turbine company Gamesa in April, and has high hopes of becoming a world leader in renewables. But Mr Kaeser concedes the transition is off to a “bumpy start”. Siemens Gamesa said last week it would cut 6,000 jobs from its workforce of 27,000 as it integrates the unit amid stiff competition and overcapacity. In solar power, neither company has any real achievements to speak of.

    GE has some solar technology, but its plan of building the largest panel manufacturing plant in the US, launched in 2011, was abandoned. Siemens made a big bet on solar in 2009, but abandoned the lossmaking effort in 2013; it could not even find a buyer and had to shut down operations. The big names in photovoltaic panel manufacturing are mainly from China, including Trina Solar and Jinko Solar…
    https://www.ft.com/content/fc1467b8-c601-11e7-b2bb-322b2cb39656

    sounds like CAGW game over maybe…

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      RickWilll

      Energy intensive manufactures in developed countries with wind and solar targets are being nobbled by the cost of electricity. They are no longer competitive. It is only possible to produce components for wind and solar using power generated from coal or nuclear. That is why China is so much more competitive. It has no obligation to reduce coal although the particulate pollution is a driver to change from coal to nuclear.

      Grids supplied with high proportion of wind and solar are in permanent decline. It is not economically feasible to replace central generation with distributed wind and solar. It is cheaper for low intensity power consumers to make their own and energy intensive manufacturers have to move their operations to countries with economic power grids or just fade away.

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      Manfred

      Makes me laugh out loud considering the political correct adherence to UNEP Divestment Policies by the virtue signalling majority of investment funds. They’re beyond pathetic in my view. In fact, they’re as treasonous, poisonous and toxic to investment health as the MSM is to news and they have many people by the neck, unable to do anything but watch their diminishing returns.

      Exactly the kind of impoverishment and early departure from old age to which the UN aspires.

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    Lionell Griffith

    Interesting. The green blob must be out of ideas and are forced to recycle the old, tired, tried, and failed ones. They really didn’t work then and won’t work now. By working I mean supporting and advancing human lives. Their ideas have accomplished the exact opposite.

    As always we don’t need better people. We need better ideas in the people. People are what they are because of the ideas they hold as true. The genuinely true ideas will work both in the short and long run while the false ones might appear to work in the short run but will always fail in the long run.

    We are up against long odds because we must win one mind at a time but it is working. We simply need to keep putting out the better ideas.

    He who is free never submits. He who submits, was never free. Stay free!

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      Lionell Griffith

      Isn’t that “special” (SNL Church Lady kind of special). I have been honored with a scarlet thumb. Clearly, I am over the target and hit where it hurt. All he can do about is click a scarlet thumb. Pathetic!

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        Ted O’Brien.

        Lionell, at least he was here.

        A.couple of weeks back my big thumb on the iPad red thumbed somebody when a green was intended. Couldn’t repair the damage, either.

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      Graeme No.3

      Lionell Griffith:

      It may just be a calculated tactic. I point out that Paul Ehrlich is still around, now banging the sixth mass extinction drum due to Global Warming© or Climate Change©. He started out with The Population Bomb in 1968 and as far as I know has never made a prediction that came true, yet he is a guru of the gullible and still getting money.

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        Lionell Griffith

        There is no calculation involved. It is simply superstition in action. Even at the height of the culture of science there were still significant numbers of those who believed in them. Superstitious belief has now reached a height not seen since the the sixth century.

        Astrology and magical thinking comes to mind as rather trivial and pervasive examples. Politicians have always believed in the magic of brute force applied liberally to the population of producers of wealth. They believe that by applying a sufficient amount of brute force upon them, they can force any wish come true.

        To make their wish “official”, the politicians make things they call laws, rules, regulations, and standards. Things that are at best only wishes that someone else must pay for with their blood, sweat, tears, wealth, and lives. The politicians get fat on the churn and chaos they create and are hardly ever held to account. Thereby making government one of the more pernicious examples of superstition based action.

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    Dave in the States

    Even the slightest hint that the scientific community is not united in the believe of AGW, causes AGW advocates to turn into foaming at the mouth rabid dogs. Why? I suspect appeal to authority is all they got. Ask for empirical evidence or ask them to articulate the AGW hypothesis and all you will get is a blank stare.

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      The claim that the “scientific community” is united in the belief that the climate does change, and does so constantly, was first noted by the Sumerians, I think, in some time BC. The Biblical flood comes to mind, so it is nothing new.

      So, in that all-encompassing way, no lies are being told, and few published statements contain falsehoods. What you have to look at, is how the language is internally structured, and how it is presented in such a way that it creates an impression of a potentially dire future-problem, that requires more research now, and hence more funding.

      I, in an alter-ego, have been thrown off alarmist blogs for wanting to discuss time-frames, and practical solutions, other than just having more time, and hence more funding.

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      OriginalSteve

      Dave, you can have much fun with the ( Scientific) Un Dead a.k.a. Climate Zombies……

      They have a pulse, but can be easily transformed with the correct science that supports climate scepticism, from mild mannered scientists , into rabid leftist zombie attack dogs….

      I had one chap who became rabid by just saying I disagreed, but he didnt realise once he’d ranted a bit, after I’d set my jaw he was in trouble…and so retreated rather Shakespearean-like, full of sound and fury……signifying , nothing…..

      At the core of it is Leftists just cant handle being told theyr are wrong i.e. No!

      Probably bad potty training as youngsters….

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        el gordo

        Its a social minefield, but in defence of the ordinary good meaning folk, they have been brainwashed by the MSM.

        We need to start a debate in the media, so for the Red Team I nominate Dr. William Happer at Princeton University, Dr. Judith Curry of the Georgia Institute of Technology, and Dr. Freeman Dyson at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton.

        In Australia I tentatively nominate Jennifer Marohasy.

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    mpcraig

    I think it’s instructive to post the actual wording of the Oregon Petition. This is necessary for two reasons: 1) These signatories are called “deniers” and 2) The actual statement would fit into most of the “97%” surveys or studies. It is actually one of the most rational statements on AGW that I have seen.

    ” We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.

    There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.”

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    RAH

    Same swill they’ve been serving up every five years or so for decades now. The 15,000 are apparently all from the Paul Ehrlich school of biology and earth “sciences”. Tony Heller puts some historical perspective on the repetitive reprieves granted by these doomsayers here: https://realclimatescience.com/2017/11/union-of-concerned-scientists-grants-earth-another-reprieve/

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    Manfred

    The Home page article of the World Scientists’ Warning to Humanity: A Second Notice (Ripple et al.)is revealing because (if anyone who signed actually bother to read it) due critical diligence on the quoted party political skience would quickly highlight the claptrap.

    So, one repairs to the lead author of the ‘article’, William J Ripple. Professor of ecology at Oregon State with expertise in atmospheric climate science the gray wolf.

    He is best known for his research on terrestrial trophic cascades, particularly the role of the gray wolf (Canis lupus) in North America as an apex predator and a keystone species that shapes food webs and landscape structures via “top-down” pressures.

    I think he got bored with the grey wolf and needed a new funding stream, ipse facto:

    More recently, William Ripple has participated in publications addressing issues that are not immediately related to the subject of trophic cascades. One such article, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, advocates for reducing the total ruminant population in global agriculture as a means to combat anthropogenic climate change. Because methane is an important greenhouse gas, reducing a leading source of human-driven methane emissions such as those from ruminants could have a significant role to play in efforts to mitigate climate change.[16]

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    You can’t be scientist without being skeptical, especially about outrageous pseudo-scientific claims that can be readily dismissed. Those that are not skeptical of the junk science driven by the IPCC have no basis to call themselves scientists, therefore, the number of scientists that have bought into the bogus claims of catastrophic warming from CO2 emissions is exactly zero.

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      OriginalSteve

      I love this:

      “”I hope Queenslanders wake up to the fact the Great Barrier Reef is Queensland’s greatest — that’s Australia’s greatest — national asset,” he said.”

      Nope…greatest asset is its clever people…closely followed by natural reserves of oil and gas and coal that allow that cleverness to be further developed with cheap energy…..well the ones who dont have to go overseas to get their ideas off the ground…..I guess if you remove all the cheap energy, we could all go back to worshipping volcanoes and living in mud huts…..but I think thats what teh Elite have planned for us anyway…another medaevil Dark Ages and rampant paganism delivered hand in hand with ignorant superstition…..oh hang on…thats the UN-compatible Cult Of CAGW, right?

      Jones Town meets psuedo science…..

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      Andrew McRae

      Dr Veron has seen the Great Barrier Reef degrade over the past decades.
      “It’s gut wrenching … the predictions that scientists made well over a decade ago have all turned out to be spot on,” he said.

      No reference is given for these awesome feats of prognostication.
      Because when you’re the Godfather you’re above having to cite references.

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      Dennis

      How can we tell when our ceiling’s burning – Midnight Foil.

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      Sceptical Sam

      From their ABC’s article:

      Dr Veron has seen the Great Barrier Reef degrade over the past decades.

      Maybe Dr Vernon needs to go back to school. If he joined student Cohen Brecknell from Trinity Bay State High School (Cohen signed the Statement) he would have watched Martin Woodcock the Principal introduce his video about the School’s curriculum and seen (at 0.16 and even better at 0.28) all the budding greenie graduates frolicking around and over a part of the Reef at the Orpheus Island study centre. Dr Vernon would have observed how wrong he is – given the quality of the coral in the video.

      https://www.facebook.com/trinitybayshs/videos/vb.171667646341816/882353725273201/?type=2&theater

      To expect their ABC to get the facts right – or a greenie academic to give an objective assessment, is a faded hope these days. We know it’s just more green-left activist propaganda.

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    Denis Ables

    Nicely said Jo !

    I’ve been wondering why that Oregon petition was laid so low.

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    jc

    Given that there are now almost 8 million scientists word wide, this paltry 15,000 clearly proves that there is no consensus amongst scientists.

    https://en.unesco.org/unesco_science_report/figures

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      Graeme No.3

      jc:

      But if they had got 240,000 signatures they would have 3% on their side and only 97% against! I am not sure of the significance of the magic number 97 in AGW circles but having it against them might make them doubt the efficacy of their magic chants.

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    John Watt

    All of this aside when will the factual work of Nicol and Evans start to get traction with the “feelgooders”? After the blackouts?

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    PeterS

    This is just another sign of the decaying and declining nature of society in general and in science in particular. Truth no longer matters, only totalitarian style agendas. I can’t explain why but history keeps repeating it over and over. Perhaps it’s part of becoming accustomed with the “good life” not remembering how bad things were in the past before progress in science and society made things better for mankind in general. After reaching a peak the decline is accompanied with changing philosophies and religions of all kinds leading to the final collapse of society, thus ending one major cycle or civilisation and allowing a new one to come out of the ashes. So, all one can do who is aware of all this is to be on the side of the crowd farthest from the cliff edge so that your chances of survival is the greatest, letting enough of the unwary to go over the cliff signalling those remaining to change direction before the whole of mankind has a chance of ending up extinct. This is how it worked so far in history.

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      Manfred

      The strangling effect may accelerate the cycle you allude to PeterS. The Davos elites, Soros et al. and Figueres and her henchmen realise that vigorous, bludgeoning and relentless propaganda hasn’t worked anymore than subtle persuasion did, even when aided and abetted by a traitorous Fourth Estate and a vacant Academia. Now the kollectiv will be forced to explore imposition by slow strangulation. Just remember 2030 is the target implementation date for the UN ‘Transformational’ agenda.

      But we also have to remember that there is another developing backdrop to all this, namely the bizarre and intentional erosion, diminishment and subversion of Western civilisation. With the Alinsky narrative, cultural marxism, antifa, all whites are evil, creeping Sharia law, the arming of the EU supranational State and the extant challenge to the very foundation of those extraordinary United States of America, the seeds of an end game appear.

      And it beggars belief to think we could have ALL of this completely reversed in a matter of weeks or a few months. The whole putrid edifice would implode. We could restore, prosperity and liberty. At the most perhaps a handful of months, the rancid ideology binned in the anus annals of history forever, if the traitorous Fourth Estate reverted to critical journalism, and the canons of journalism.

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        PeterS

        Manfred, the way I sense it is the current swing to the left might cause enough angst even among the aloof to make them retaliate once they experience the pains of totalitarianism. The fear though is it will create a vacuum to allow extreme rightism to enter the picture, which is already lurking in the background waiting patiently. Poland is already showing signs of this by the far-right protesters and marches. Time will tell. Who knows, perhaps people like Soros are planning things this way – get the people upset enough to make them beg for right-wing extremism to take over. A perfect bluff. No need to remind people something similar happened last century in a certain country in Europe.

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    TdeF

    The current farce of Victoria, South Australia and Tasmania trying to run the state on diesel generators is unbelievable. Why is diesel so much better than coal? They do admit that coal is cheaper, but consider that it is actually free. It is our coal!

    Diesel and the generators and big batteries and solar panels and windmills are imported. We are now dependent on the exchange rate and overseas refineries just to heat and cool our houses? More tax dollars flying overseas to keep General Electric and Westinghouse and the Chinese rolling in cash. Why? Why did we close working coal power stations and replace them with diesel?

    Or is diesel ‘Green’ somehow? Why is there a tax on diesels in London? Nitrous oxides and particular matter to replace clean coal.

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      RickWilll

      The big advantage of diesel is response time. Only seconds to fire up and full load with minutes. Diesel generation is more compatible with intermittent generators.

      It is also possible to run “diesels” on natural gas. The Finkel submission from Wartsilla describes what IC engines can offer:
      http://www.environment.gov.au/submissions/nem-review/wartsila-australia-pty-ltd.pdf

      The market based on its current structure does not offer sufficient signals and incentives for fresh investments in new technologies such as ICE that complement RE perfectly. Given that overall demand growth is stagnant, the payback is not perceived as attractive for investments to be driven based on sporadic, low probability, high price cap events. However, such events have the potential to cause economic losses to the state, as the fear of unreliable electricity can drive out industries.

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        TdeF

        The real advantage is that if you generate your own power, you do not pay the Federal RET. So these power supplies are for governments. Weatherill does not want his government to suffer, plus the savings are immense. The same with the SA Dockyard, Whyalla and more. It is all about using your money to make sure the State governments do not have to pay the RET. Words fail.

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      Serp

      So if diesel’s okay and coal’s not then why not synthesize diesel from our coal –surely it’s cheaper and more secure than importing.

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    Rupert Ashford

    Having not read the petition, I did pick up from a quick scan of the lame stream mejia that they at least spell out in this petition their stance that they actually stand for population reduction – my guess is if they put their money where their mouths are and preach to all the signatories of the Paris accord that “the $$ will only flow if you implement proper measures to reduce population growth to the replacement rate” we’ll see the consensus evaporate in no time and we’ll hear lots of screams of “racist” and probably see more people screaming helplessly at the sky as well which would at least be entertaining…

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      sophocles

      and the Western Democracies have all had a birthrate since the 1970s of below replacement. Thus their stance needed no action.

      Bring all the countries in the world with the higher rates of replacement to similar standards of education and the `mejia’s problem’ will be more quickly solved.

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        sophocles

        The Old Testament of the Western Bible demonstrates clearly how oppressing a people increases its population ever more quickly. Joseph’s brothers’ families grew into the Tribes of Israel during their sojourn in Egypt.

        If they hadn’t been oppressed, they wouldn’t have grown so and Moses wouldn’t have had to demand of the pharoah: Let my people go.

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    pat

    given these are the people who believe they should have the job of “managing” the decline of fossil fuels, it’s worth a laugh to check how they’re faring at COP23:

    14 Nov: CAN (ClimateActionNetwork): Fossil of the Day
    Germany and Australia Win Fossils, While G77 Gets a Ray
    Our first Fossil goes to Germany for increasing its emissions in 2017 and risking missing its 2020 targets for emission reductions.
    Germany, our hospitable host, where did you go wrong?
    Is this the same country that provided funding to the Adaptation Fund last week? The so called “climate chancellor” who got G7 leaders to agree to decarbonize the global economy?
    Even our tired brains know that yes, it is the same country and that same chancellor!…

    Australia Continues to Play Dirty
    Another day, another Fossil for Australia – someone seems to be keen on earning the colossal Fossil!
    In a continuing show of being the biggest bully on the playground, yesterday, at a joint session on Loss and Damage, negotiators were debating about increasing the resources of the WIM (Warsaw International Mechanism) and exploring new and innovative sources for support, which would give a stronger voice to the most vulnerable countries on earth. However, Australia proposed to eliminate the two most important outcomes that the G77 was pushing for.
    Rather than being constructive and proposing solutions to allow a clear process on loss and damage, Australia proposed to delete two essential paragraphs: paragraph 8, which included the creation of a permanent item for discussion about issues related to Loss and Damage under the SBI and paragraph 18 which was an opportunity to explore sources of finance. What’s more is Australia made the proposal, while the G77 coordinator was struggling to find consensus and agreement from superiors.
    Australia’s attitude shows a sense of disregard for the important discussion on loss and damage. But hey, were we expecting a better attitude from you? …

    The G77 Shines a Ray on Loss and Damage
    The developing country group, G77 wins today’s ray of the day award for joining together to stand up for vulnerable country members facing the worst impacts of climate change, in the face of fierce opposition from rich countries…

    13 Nov: Norway Gets Defensive About its Arctic Exploration
    The Fossil of the Day Award goes to Norway for defending continued Arctic oil exploration in court…

    11 Nov: Lost(loss) and Damaged Finance for Day 6!
    The US, Australia, Canada and the EU receive the Fossil of the Day for refusing to get serious about loss and damage finance…
    Australia has long lacked many things – sympathy, support, and solidarity among them – with its Pacific Island neighbors (flashback to Day 2 anyone?), but these bullying tactics are over the line, even for them.
    And Canada – we had hopes!…

    9 Nov: Developed Countries, Japan, and Kuwait all win big, for being bad
    Our first Fossil of the Day Award goes to the developed countries, whose historic responsibility for climate change got us to where we are today, for opposing a discussion of pre-2020 actions and its inclusion as an agenda item at COP23…
    Our second Fossil goes to Japan, who has agreed on a new energy partnership with US this week, which is called “JUSEP (Japan-United States Strategic Energy Partnership).” This partnership aims to support energy infrastructure projects in developing countries (especially in South East Asia, South Asia, and Sub-Saharan Africa), which includes “promoting nuclear technologies” and “deploying HELE coal technologies”, as their priority for 2017-2018. On the other hand, there is no language in the partnership document to support renewables…

    Our third Fossil goes to Kuwait for insisting upon excluding observers yesterday from the Loss and Damage negotiations under SBI…
    As we all know, observer participation is vital, to hold governments accountable, to give legitimacy to this process, and to bring in the important ideas that are created in civil society, just to name a few…
    Come on Kuwait, open up and let us in!
    http://www.climatenetwork.org/fossil-of-the-day

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    Serp

    I went looking for the actual dollar numbers which forced Engie to abandon Hazelwood and my “engie shuts hazelwood” google search produced this nauseating farrago of greenery at number one: https://environmentvictoria.org.au/hazelwood-faqs/ –this is the sort of document one would expect to find in Obama’s EPA.

    Only gloom awaits the east coast of Australia unless some extraordinary political figure emerges and adopts the approach TdeF and ROM advocate in these pages; it’s hard to be optimistic eh!

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      David Maddison

      What a disgraceful piece of Green propaganda, especially the bit about “fine particulate matter” killing 18 people per year in the area. I thought the claims about “fine particulate matter” killing people originated with the US EPA and had been debunked.

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    pat

    14 Nov: ClimateChangeNews: No finance plan for climate change victims in draft UN decision
    Efforts to raise cash for those hit hardest by global warming were deferred to 2018 in “loss and damage” text adopted by negotiators in Bonn on Tuesday
    By Abu Siddique and Megan Darby in Bonn
    Countries battered by climate change face leaving UN talks in Bonn empty-handed, after a draft decision on Tuesday deferred key finance discussions to next year…
    Negotiators from rich countries rejected any claim on their public funds, however, agreeing only to an “expert dialogue” on the issue in 2018…

    Julie-Anne Richards of the Climate Justice Program called on ministers to intervene and strengthen the draft text in the final days of talks…
    http://www.climatechangenews.com/2017/11/14/no-finance-plan-climate-change-victims-draft-un-decision/

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    Michael Reed

    Well in one decade Australia has gone from being able to produce reliable scalable and comparatively cheap electricity and to be able to refine crude oil to a situation where both
    of these absolutely necessary underpinnings for a modern first world economy are now gone.
    Again we had grid stability (and a comparative advantage in energy production with other
    countries ) but not any longer .If I was an economic vandal (or a politician tack your pick labor
    or liberal) these would be the things I would do to dismantle our economy.
    So where would we be if our supply line of refined petroleum products were to be cut off for
    whatever reason ( and there looks to be one very big one at the moment with North Korea)
    In any of this there has been absolutely no practice of due diligence or cost benifit analysis.
    What there has been in real practice has been a lot of self interest by politicians
    (who earn triple average income and will live out their days in comfort with a healthy
    superannuation scheme paid by us)and an incredibly compliant MSM not to mention
    the $1.3 billion dollar behemoth of ABC with its leftist bias.Now by comparison
    I’m in India at the moment where Narendra Modi is ensuring that the energy base and security
    that is needed in building a first world economy is definitely happening.So Australia is
    suffering a terminal economic case of “the enemy from within ” that will
    produce the banana republic that we have to have and deserve just like Venezuela
    but should never have had ever been allowed to happen.Mike Reed

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      Manfred

      Mike, most countries seem to have had to endure a civil war. Australia has yet to have one. Seems as though the seeds for one are being currently nurtured well. The question remains, will the Armed Forces side with the people or the Government?

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    Michael Reed

    My apologies for being off topic.Mike Reed

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    pat

    14 Nov: Newser: AP: The Latest: Short on time, Merkel to fly to climate talks
    Chancellor Angela Merkel is going to fly across Germany on Wednesday to attend the global climate conference, a decision that runs counter to the event’s emphasis on sustainable transportation.
    The German government’s own website for the talks in Bonn urges people to “avoid flights if there is a more environmentally friendly way of getting there” and notes “short flights are especially harmful to the environment.”
    Merkel’s office confirmed Tuesday to The Associated Press that she will make the 500-kilometer (311-mile) journey by plane, citing her need to attend negotiations in Berlin on forming a new government before and after the 11-minute speech in Bonn…

    Merkel’s office said the German government funds environmental projects to compensate for carbon emissions from official travel.
    Environment minister Barbara Hendricks traveled to Bonn by train…

    Climate activists say a report showing oil use will continue to rise for over two decades is too pessimistic, but highlights the need for more action to combat climate change.
    The report released Tuesday by the International Energy Agency predicts oil demand will keep growing until 2040 even as the price of solar power falls…
    Lauri Myllyvirta, an energy analyst at Greenpeace, says the Paris-based IEA’s report is “absurdly pessimistic about renewables.” She says similar forecasts have proven wrong in the past…
    http://www.newser.com/article/bef1f633ec2e460aa938a0b9848b177b/the-latest-short-on-time-merkel-to-fly-to-climate-talks.html

    14 Nov: Reuters: Global oil demand to withstand rise of electric vehicles: IEA
    Global oil demand will fall only modestly alongside the expected rise in electric vehicles over the next two decades, with consumption in petrochemicals and other transportation still growing, the International Energy Agency said on Tuesday…
    The IEA estimates that there will be 50 million electric vehicles on the road by 2025 and 300 million by 2040, from closer to 2 million now. However, this is expected to cut only 2.5 million barrels per day (bpd), or about 2 percent, off global oil demand by that time…
    “It’s quite spectacular, because you’re going to see the number of cars on the road (globally) double from 1 billion to 2 billion, thanks to electric vehicles and fuel economy standards,” said Laura Cozzi, head of the Energy Demand Outlook division…
    The IEA estimates that U.S. crude oil is expected to rise until reaching a peak in the 2020s of about 17 million bpd.

    btw perhaps still too optimistic on the “renewables” side:

    IEA: World Energy Outlook 2017
    Growing energy demand
    In the New Policies Scenario, global energy needs rise more slowly than in the past but still expand by 30% between today and 2040. This is the equivalent of adding another China and India to today’s global demand…
    The largest contribution to demand growth – almost 30% – comes from India, whose share of global energy use rises to 11% by 2040 (still well below its 18% share in the anticipated global population).

    Southeast Asia is another rising heavyweight in global energy, with demand growing at twice the pace of China. Overall, developing countries in Asia account for two-thirds of global energy growth, with the rest coming mainly from the Middle East, Africa and Latin America…

    Since 2000, coal-fired power generation capacity has grown by nearly 900 gigawatts (GW), but net additions from today to 2040 are only 400 GW and many of these are plants already under construction. In India, the share of coal in the power mix drops from three-quarters in 2016 to less than half in 2040. In the absence of large-scale carbon capture and storage, global coal consumption flatlines.

    Oil demand continues to grow to 2040, albeit at a steadily decreasing pace. Natural gas use rises by 45% to 2040; with more limited room to expand in the power sector, industrial demand becomes the largest area for growth. The outlook for nuclear power has dimmed since last year’s Outlook, but China continues to lead a gradual rise in output, overtaking the United States by 2030 to become the largest producer of nuclear-based electricity…

    The future is electrifying
    Electricity is the rising force among worldwide end-uses of energy, making up 40% of the rise in final consumption to 2040 – the same share of growth that oil took for the last twenty-five years…
    Electricity makes inroads in supplying heat and mobility, alongside growth in its traditional domains, allowing its share of final consumption to rise to nearly a quarter…

    The US shale revolution turns to exports…
    In our projections, the 8 mb/d rise in US tight oil output from 2010 to 2025 would match the highest sustained period of oil output growth by a single country in the history of oil markets. A 630 bcm increase in US shale gas production over the 15 years from 2008 would comfortably exceed the previous record for gas.
    Expansion on this scale is having wide-ranging impacts within North America, fuelling major investments in petrochemicals and other energy-intensive industries…

    The era of oil is not yet over
    With the United States accounting for 80% of the increase in global oil supply to 2025 and maintaining near-term downward pressure on prices, the world’s consumers are not yet ready to say goodbye to the era of oil…READ ON
    https://www.iea.org/weo2017/

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  • #
    TdeF

    After WWII, Australia boomed. We made cars, refrigerators, motors, weapons, ammunition, aircraft and refined oil and aluminum and iron. 26 spillways on the Murray. Dams. Energy indpendence with the Snowy and many coal fired power stations and gas from Bass straight and it was a wonderful time to be Australian. We were the most heavily migrated country on earth and welcomed everyone, but we set the rules.

    Now the ‘progressives’ have shut it all down. No dams, no gas, no manufacturing, no hope and jobs in the public service education system and the ABC/SBS/CSIRO/BOM. With plentiful coal and oil and gas, we now have to import diesel for the politicians to run their private energy systems. No blackouts for our public servants! They will not pay the RET. They will be fine in their airconditioned offices collecting more cash from everyone with a real job.

    The very idea that we should move to diesel power generation in three state is beyond rational explanation. There is no CO2 saving and in fact the real pollution is higher.

    However if it comes to a crisis, if Australia has to defend itself, we are utterly helpless when the diesel stops. We make no electronics or cars or boats or submarines or aircraft. Whyalla nearly closed and still might which means we cannot make new steel. All thanks to the most selfish set of politicians ever to be in Federal or State parliament. And what are their priorities? List them. All social engineering. They are all about destroying our democracy, our energy independence, our manufacturing and turning us into Saudi Arabia, a toy in the hands of the UN. Perhaps so Julie Bishop can party. Plus Kevin Rudd and Julie Gillard. Professors? Of what?

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      TdeF

      Of course the ABC/SBS/CSIRO/BOM believe they should not be accountable, balanced, fair or careful. Why have them?

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      el gordo

      If Tony Abbott becomes the Minister for Environment and Energy, with Dutton as PM, then a revolution in ideas can be expected and hopefully restore your faith in the democratic system.

      Of course I could be wrong, the pseudo Marxist consortium might remain in power, which would play directly into the hands of Beijing.

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      GD

      After WWII, Australia boomed. We made cars, refrigerators, motors, weapons, ammunition, aircraft and refined oil and aluminum and iron. 26 spillways on the Murray. Dams. Energy independence with the Snowy and many coal-fired power stations and gas from Bass straight and it was a wonderful time to be Australian.

      TdeF, thanks for a magnificent summary of Australia’s current status. Your post needs to have more than the handful of ‘likes’ on this page. It should be front and centre on the Australian website with hundreds of ‘likes’ and thousands of views.

      Your colloquial explanations for CO2 emissions, the RET, and Australia’s energy crisis are sorely needed out in the mainstream media and in politicians’ email.

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    pat

    14 Nov: Brisbane Times: Rolling strikes at Bureau of Meteorology over public service EBA negotiations
    Union members at the Bureau of Meteorology plan rolling strikes at times they judge will cause the most disruption to management this week.
    CPSU deputy secretary Beth Vincent-Pietsch said the industrial action would begin on Wednesday and run until Tuesday, November 21. It was “in response to management’s refusal to drop cuts to rights and conditions that other government agencies have dropped”.
    She said staff had already taken about 10 weeks of action since July.

    Previous rolling strike action included restrictions on answering the phone and handling media inquiries. Bureau employees continued to provide weather forecasting services.
    Ms Vincent-Pietsch said in a statement, “We all want a deal by Christmas but we are not tired enough to accept something sub-standard that sends workers backwards.”
    “BoM management says they’ve backed off enough ugly cuts to get this over the line. We say the core cuts left on the table are the ones that matter.
    “We continue to negotiate in good faith and we’ve put viable options for settlement forward. But BoM bosses are still insisting on pushing unreasonable cuts to existing rights and conditions, and particularly targeting essential front-line staff working shifts and in remote locations.”
    CPSU members will be legally protected to strike at any time between 4.30am and 7.30pm in the week…ETC
    https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/rolling-strikes-at-bureau-of-meteorology-over-public-service-eba-negotiations-20171114-gzl2yx.html

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    Bruce Imrie

    Sceptics include biologists. We know that CO2 is not pollution and that it increases plant productivity. And enough physics and geology to know that models are suspect and temperatures are historically within limits.

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    John

    What gets me is that most people I talk to about the climate issue, including my wife and a colleague (both PhD scientists, chemistry/biology) both fall on the side of the “consensus” solely because neither have done any in depth reading on the subject. My colleague is a social liberal, so he’s more likely to follow the narrative, but he’s at least rational. My wife is definitely anti-Trump, but she’s also rational thinker for the most part. However, unless they crack through the media barrage of superfluity, they’ll remain on the same uninformed trajectory. I feel that is the real power of the agenda…a constant bombardment of weak articles, media bias and buzz words that present a daunting challenge of sifting through and finding the truth. The fear I have is the manipulation of the youth through schools. Perhaps in the next few years, the natural cycles take over and continue into the cooling cycle we expect. Perhaps the desperation attempts lately, especially now with the conference in Bonn, and Al “the carnival barker” Gore’s most recent bomb of a political documentary, show they know exactly what is in store and are scrambling en masse before the temps head South and it becomes obvious.

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    • #
      Lionell Griffith

      It has always been thus. A small fraction of the population make things happen. A larger fraction watch what happens and sometimes help to make it happen. The vast majority only wonder what happened, after the fact, too late to do anything about it, and expect someone else to fix it even if it is not broken.

      It could be different. People could wake up and know they have a choice to be aware of what is and are able to learn how to make things that work. The hard part is each individual has to do the waking up and learning for himself. If enough wake up soon enough, a revolution can happen. The challenge is making the right revolution happen and staying alive while you are doing it.

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    TdeF

    In establishing objectivity, it is essential that those who earn their entire living from Climate Change/Global Warming should be excluded. There would not be many people left in the poll.

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    Man Bearpig

    I posted on wuwt that I am considering starting up a new organisation called “The union of really, seriously concerned scientists” membership is charged annually by bitcoin.

    Membership criteria is you must have a PhD or; know someone with a masters degree or have heard of someone with degree. Pets can be members as long as they are fully house trained. Training is important you know.

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