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ABC renewables fantasy island “farewells diesel” (except for 40% of its power)

Flinders Island, Tasmania, Map, renewables.

Flinders Island is in the Bass Strait North of Tasmania.

If there is a heaven for renewables, this island should be it. But instead, even on Flinders Island, renewables aren’t cheaper than diesel generators. This is a dismal reality, yet the ABC promotes it as a fantasy poster-isle, interviewing only vested or “no idea” people, asking no critical questions, doing no counter research and telling us renewables will be “more reliable” and implying they are cheaper too. The ABC is a three-million-dollar-a-day advertising outlet for other government agencies. Instead of serving Australians it appears to be there to help shake down the taxpayer.

ABC renewables hype strikes again: Rhiannon Shine reports Flinders Island as a showcase of the brave new renewables world. Let’s translate that spin and see just how pathetic it is. If anywhere was going to be totally renewable, Flinders Island would be it — a first world island, tiny population, massive subsidies, no access to cheap coal or gas power, government support at every level and placed in a handy wind stream known as “the Roaring Forties”.  Yeah! This is one of the last places in the first world (short of Antarctic stations) where renewables might make sense. Ferrgoodnessake — they have to ship their diesel in. The ABC tells us “The Flinders Island Hub is becoming a showcase of the technology”. The real story here is that it will only theoretically be “60% renewable”, the price of electricity is already high, but won’t go down. No one will be farewelling diesel at all, except maybe on a few theoretical orgasmic days “sometime”.  Even after this up-and-coming next leap, diesel will be the most reliable energy source on the island, still providing 40% of the electricity, and still the only thing that will stop blackouts when the batteries run flat. If this is showcase, I say:  “Is that it?”

Check out the disconnect here

The propaganda:

Flinders Island going for green with renewable energy hub, farewells dirty diesel

 ”A Tasmanian island is about to swap fossil fuel for renewable energy as its major power source.”

The reality: Flinders has a population of 700 people and relies on diesel power, and next month they will “enable” the island to be 60% renewable “on average”. Sometime in the vague future, on a few days they might even switch off the diesels. Bowl. me. Over.

In December, Hydro Tasmania will flick the switch over to its Hybrid Energy Hub, which will enable the island to be powered by 60 per cent renewable energy on average.

When conditions are right, diesel generators will be switched off and the island will run 100 per cent on renewables.

Serfs can see the priorities for three layers of governments right here: Emissions reductions, “Yes”, Price reduction, “No”. They can also see ABC priorities — the first person interviewed (sorry, parroted, with no hard questions) is an employee of a government run renewable energy company:

Hydro Tasmania hybrid energy solutions manager Ray Massie said the project would reduce emissions by 60 per cent and put downward pressure on future power prices.

“This will reduce emissions down to about 40 per cent of what has traditionally been generated from the power station,” he said.

“The use of diesel is a large expense. The overall price for their electricity won’t be going down but it will put pressure on future prices.”

People on Flinders paying bills will be glad to know that their future-cheque-books are feeling “less pressure”. That must be a great relief.  Is this the most desperate spin attempt — prices won’t go down, but hypothetically, possibly one day in the indefinite future “they might”.

Fantasy Island?

The system will use a combination of solar, wind, battery storage and enabling technologies to reduce the island’s reliance on expensive shipped-in diesel and provide residents with a more reliable energy source.

What’s an “enabling” technology? Who knows? But it has been modularized.

“We have modularised the enablers and we have used the platform of shipping containers,” Mr Massie said.

But wait — Renewables will be more reliable?

More reliable than what, exactly?

“…based on the King Island results, Flinders Island’s power supply would become significantly more reliable.”

So based on a different island which had a lot of blackouts, things could get better? How many blackouts has Flinders Island had? Don’t ask. Not stated. Who knows?

When will they really say “Farewell to diesel”?

“The islanders have an ambition for 100 per cent renewable energy,” he said…. It is fully feasible to achieve 100 per cent in the long term.”

Wait for it …“Deputy mayor Marc Cobham said the goal could be achieved through the adoption of tidal energy.”

Are they serious — Tidal!? Tidal?! Nowhere in the world runs on tidal energy. The projects come, they break. Tidal must be one of the most mechanically unfriendly ideas in the world: massive forces, coming from many angles, it only runs 10 hours a day, it’s   wet and salty and full of life forms that corrode stuff. It’s legendary for its failures like the British £18MILLION tidal energy scheme  that lasted just three months.

Deputy mayor Marc Cobham thinks tidal is “plug and play”:

“The beauty of the system that Hydro have put in is that when a wave tidal generation is developed more, this is a perfect location and the system will allow that to just plug in,” he said.

Rhianna Shine, ABC “investigator” doesn’t ask if this is realistic. She didn’t ask a skeptic to comment. She didn’t interview an engineer which did not work for a renewables group.

A Tourist Bureau guy thinks renewables will fit the Island’s clean green branding.  Shine doesn’t ask him if tidal barrages or giant underwater blades that slice wildlife are also “clean and green”.

There is an intellectual quagmire in here. Spot the contradictions:

In the no-hard-questions ABC, journalists must be trained to ignore the most obvious problems and thread an Orwellian counter-meme of “cost reductions” through a story where the one promise made by an official is that renewables “won’t reduce the overall price”.

  •  Hydro Tasmania hybrid energy solutions manager Ray Massie said the project would … put downward pressure on future power prices.
  • “The overall price for their electricity won’t be going down but it will put pressure on future prices.”
  • “We would like 100 per cent renewable energy on the island, particularly given the cost of fuel…”
  • “Anything that reduces the overall cost from a long term point of view is a positive…”

There’s one mention that costs won’t come down, and four implied suggestions that costs are a problem that renewables can solve. No wonder Australians are confused, and think renewables might “be cheaper”.

If renewables can’t provide cheaper electricity on a small windy island with no cheap competitor, where can it compete?

h/t Robert Rosicka

Map: Wikimedia by Chuq

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ABC renewables fantasy island "farewells diesel" (except for 40% of its power), 9.7 out of 10 based on 81 ratings

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181 comments to ABC renewables fantasy island “farewells diesel” (except for 40% of its power)

  • #
    Graeme No.3

    For information euanmearns.com has a long running saga about the Spanish attempt to get rid of diesel on an island. El Hierro in the Atlantic came with its own hydro pumped storage ‘dam’ in the form of an extinct? volcano crater. The idea was to install excess capacity of wind turbines and use the peaks of generation to pump water up into the crater. When the wind didn’t blow then water would flow down through the hydro generators into the lower storage dam.
    I will leave it up to the curious to follow up ( HINT it didnt do what was hoped).

    There are live links to el Hierro, King Island, Germany etc.

    140

    • #
      Geoff

      Just how is the wind farm going to synch the local grid? The diesel must be going all the time to synch the windmill. It could all be DC but its a large island, so I doubt it. The only thing that may work is a $100M battery. Maybe every home has batteries and that is what gets re-charged when the wind farm works?

      I can see “free” money may make all this work. What happens when the 150 companies these funds are “extracted” from go bust or leave the country?

      How many homes are there on FI?

      70

      • #
        James

        They are doing the same thing on King Island. You can view real time data here: http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au/
        On one or two occasions I have seen it running without the main diesel generator running. There is a fly wheel to provide inertia. It is called a D-UPS, which means diesel uninterruptible power supply. This diesel probably runs all the time, or at least when the main diesel is not running. This is not clear from the live data.

        110

        • #
          Robber

          Just took a look at the real time data from King Island – diesel supplying 88% of the 1.8 MW total demand.

          90

        • #
          Greg Cavanagh

          It looks like it has to run continuous for line conditioning.
          http://www.euro-diesel.com/english/operation-description/94/2

          50

        • #
          RobK

          King Island had a flow battery installed initially in it’s renewballs upgrade, iirc,but it under performed and was replaced by a different system.

          30

          • #
            Graeme#4

            Yes. It was replaced by I believe an Ecoult Ultrabattery, which apparently has super capacitor elements built into the battery cells and was developed by CSIRO. I don’t believe these batteries have been in use long enough to provide any lifetime figures, and I’m not sure that they can provide the depth of discharge that’s achievable from Lithium batteries. It’s interesting that SA didn’t choose them for its large battery – I wonder if the company was given the chance to competively tender?

            40

        • #
          Graeme#4

          Not sure about the exact makeup of the D-UPS, but suspect that it’s a standard no-break diesel power generator, which are often used at airports and similar locations where it’s vital that power is never interrupted. Usually consist of a electric motor/generator spinning a heavy flywheel. When the power fails, the flywheel is clutched to the diesel which then drives the electric motor, now acting as a generator. The King Island D-UPS takes about 3kW from the supply to keep the system running.

          50

    • #
      pattoh

      G3

      I would love to know if & how much detrimental remnant metal & sulfate ions from a reservoir in a crater would be to the the infrastructure in the cycle stream.

      [ similarly with the pumped hydro scheme proposed for Kidston Mine +/- the added O2 & bacteria from the movement ]

      On the fantasy of blowing it back upstream; isn’t that what Big Mals Snowy’ v 2.0 amounts to without the extra dams which he could NEVER build?

      70

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        pattoh:

        No data from el Hierro but the pumped storage scheme isn’t being used that much. The crater is the source of the drinking water for the island (as it was before) so I assume that there is sufficient rainfall to replenish the water store and maintain water quality.
        However your point about the Kinston Mine is valid, where continuous circulation in a higher evaporation area is likely to concentrate undesirable matter. However I note that the scheme includes “Existing water rights to draw up to 4,650ML of water annually from the Copperfield Dam”. The dam is some 18 kilometres away and was built to supply the mine.

        40

  • #
    toorightmate

    Does Weatherdill have a holiday house on Flinders Is?
    They seem to have similar thought process.

    111

  • #
    Yonniestone

    Wasn’t this the same island that introduced cats to manage the mice problem then dogs to manage the cat problem then lions to manage the dog problem then elephants to manage the lion problem then mice to manage the elephant problem then renewables to manage the people problem…….

    361

    • #
      Peter C

      There was an old Woman who swallowed a Fly. I don’t know why she swallowed a fly. Perhaps she’ll die!

      There was an old Woman who swallowed a spider, that wriggled and wriggled and wriggled inside her. She swallowed the Spider to catch the Fly. I don’t know why she swallowed a fly. Perhaps she’ll die!

      There was an old Woman who swallowed a Bird

      100

  • #
    rollo

    According to Wikipedia… “An enabling technology is an invention or innovation, that can be applied to drive radical change in the capabilities of a user or culture. Enabling technologies are characterized by rapid development of subsequent derivative technologies, often in diverse fields”

    No idea what that means, but it sounds good.

    100

    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Enabling technologies are characterized by rapid development

      Rapid development?

      Oh yes – pull the other one!

      The first windmill for electricity production was built by Professor James Blyth of Anderson’s College, Glasgow, Scotland (now Strathclyde University) in July 1887. Blyth experimented with three different turbine designs. He even built one to power his holiday home apparently. His experiments lacked due thought or consideration of what would happen when the wind didn’t blow. Nevertheless, he blithely continued to develop an improved model which served as an emergency power source at a lunatic asylum – no less.

      Emergency power for a lunatic asylum. You just can’t make this stuff up.

      Now, 130 years later the technology still doesn’t deliver. So tell us, where’s that rapid development again? That enabling technology?

      Yes, the lunatics are finally running the asylum it would seem.

      291

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      An enabling technology, is a technology, that enables other technologies to work.

      For example, this island will presumably rely on wind technology for most of its power, so an enabling technology would be the diesel technology that will stand instead of the wind technology when there is insufficient wind to make the wind technology work. As would the oil technology required to keep the windmill technology, wind-milling.

      The diesel technology require to stand instead of the wind technology, will require a steady supply of the average amount of diesel required for each month when backup is required. That supply of backup diesel will need to be transported to the island by some means. This will presumably be via shipping in diesel powered ships.

      Not only that, but the diesel required for backup for the windmill technology, must be shipped from its point of manufacture to the point of embarkation, presumably via the deployment of diesel powered tankers, that will not only be required to carry the load to the point of embarkation, but also to travel back empty, to their place of domicile.

      And finally, I observe that the diesel powered tankers, whilst engaged on this project, cannot be deployed on other, less costly, and more regular projects, This represents an opportunity cost to the shipping company, and the tankers deployed to move the diesel.

      Can somebody tell me again, who it is, that thinks that this is a good idea?

      130

      • #

        Serfs wonder is this the broken glass sindrome
        or something more sinister? Jest askin’.

        70

      • #
        Robber

        Of course the next steps will be sailing ships for all imports/exports, solar powered planes for all tourists, and horses in place of diesel tractors for all farms.

        20

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I dont know, but it reminds me of John Dawes in “the Games” – the olympic architects had messed up the running track dimensions by putting in too much seating, so they had to make the 100m sprint track 97 m to fit in…

        It fits into “well it was a good idea at the time”…but lacks engineering rigour…

        10

    • #
      Annie

      ‘Enabling technology’? It sounds like Pseuds’Corner babble to me.

      50

    • #
      clipe

      It means the price for a litre of diesel is going up-up-up-for no good reason.

      Economies of scale and all that.

      00

  • #
    King Geo

    Just imagine this folks – “Welcome to Fantasy Island, Tasmania” – my name is Tattoo (resurrected) – I am short in stature but big on fantasy. Here on Flinders Island in Tassie the residents want me to wear a green suit rather than a white one as I did on the other Fantasy Island in the tropical Pacific (1977-1984).

    121

    • #
      AZ1971

      An excellent memorable TV series of my youth which, no doubt, will be poorly resurrected in short order because Hollywood has zero originality anymore.

      10

    • #
      Dennis

      Tasmania the very green state of basket case economics where, for example of one of many industries and related businesses that have been sunk, handing over State Forests created for sustainable logging for the timber industry to National Parks with logging banned.

      When the Abbott Government and the then recently elected Coalition Government tried to reverse the handover they were blocked by UNESCO based on the handing over terms and conditions the Labor Green Tasmania Government signed.

      60

      • #
        Kneel

        “Tasmania the very green state…”
        Hydro Tasmania, was, of course, named after the fact that they ONLY employed hydro-electric. Until the Greens prevented them damming the Franklin river and insisted on importing “cheap and plentiful” brown-coal power from Victoria. The connector enabled Hydro Tasmania to sell “renewable” power to the mainland, which reduced available water levels in the dams, meaning they had to import even more power from Vic. Until the cable broke. Then they had to rely on diesel generators. Good thing they got in early on the diesel generators – S.A. will be buying a lot now, and soon NSW and Vic to follow. Maybe when the Tas-Vic connector comes back up, they can sell diesel powered electricity to SA, Vic and NSW?

        50

  • #
    robert rosicka

    That explains why I went into moderation on the last thread , jo was working on the story .
    I couldn’t believe the contradictions in the abc story .

    —-
    H/t to you added. Thanks! Yes it was your comment. Sorry, I thought someone emailed me with it, and I hunted but couldn’t find that tip. – Jo

    120

  • #
    robert rosicka

    I think this is what our resident troll calls “an opinion piece” , seems pretty much all you get nowadays on most MSM .

    90

  • #
    rollo

    Psst… Islanders. Just tap into basslink, nobody will notice your small consumption.

    180

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Just watched it on the abc news and apparently they can completely turn off the diesel gensets when the conditions are right , I didn’t think wind and solar could provide stability for phase control.

    120

    • #
      Another Ian

      Maybe that is the next problem to appear?

      80

    • #
      RobK

      The prices won’t come down but the RET subsidies will start to flow, so the added cost is defrayed to the national pool of energy bill payers. There are no winners.

      110

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Eventually we will see energy riots n this country…..I dont want it to happen, but I think it will come to that.

        Again I see why the pollies have put security fences up at parl house…I suspect they knew it would eventually come.

        Parl House in effect is a burial mound…how apt….

        70

    • #
      Graeme#4

      I think this news is based on what’s happened with the King Island trials, where they claimed they turned the diesels off for six days. Remember that there is also a battery system in the mix.

      50

    • #
      bobl

      Yes, inverters can be switched to oscillator control, this is what islanding inverters do, the problem comes when you want to combine two power sources, they need to be in-phase or they go bang. So one has to be the master and the other the slave, which one is the master depends on whether you are bringing the diesel online or the inverter. This is simple when there are only a few sources.

      On a bigger grid, generators always come onto a live grid, the inverters are built to assume there is an energized grid. There isn’t a need to become the reference because that is never the case.

      In theory you could just send a reference clock around the inverter supplies to synchronise them all, but in fact its easier and cheaper to sample your line voltage and just follow the leader so that’s what they do. The consequence of that is that if there is no leader, they all wander off like ants.

      10

  • #
    Peter Whale

    “Expensive shipped in diesel” What are those Behemoths traveling the world’s oceans carrying oil to all parts of the world. Go to the Canary Islands which import all their oil and the price of petrol and diesel is half the cost of the UK. It’s governments putting on their taxes and tariffs that cause prices to rise and keep their populations poorer and more controllable. Add a bit of immigration to keep wages lower and a bit of terror and there you have the perfect control measures.
    When you allowed your beautiful country to dispense with John Howard and his policies, I am at a loss to see your gain.

    230

    • #
      toorightmate

      They are so unlucky that there diesel has to be shipped in.
      The rest of us in Australia have it delivered by the fairies.

      110

    • #
      Dennis

      Not enough Australians can see what is taking place in politics here. You are right about the Howard Government, it was our last good management government but they too were somewhat caught up in the UN climate change agenda, but were cautious and would not ratify the Kyoto Agreement.

      Behind the scenes away from the average voter attention there were corporate style takeovers underway even in the Howard years. Liberal Party Headquarters was under siege as the centre left faction gained control, and we now know who was behind it, the present appears to be only acting the role PM. He stacked branches in the safe Liberal seat of Wentworth in Sydney to enter Parliament. On the other side the Labor Party, which was of course the political arm of the union movement, was also under siege as the far left union backed union trained executives took control and displaced many sitting Labor MPs from safe seats.

      Too long to go into again here but there are many signs of the takeover of Australian governments that were covered in 2006 in The Bulletin Magazine, Max Walsh the journalist wrote about then. And one last for now: The formation of activist group GetUp by the now Opposition Leader Shorten when he was an Australian Workers Union senior executive. Union membership monies were used and unions still fund GetUp along with other donors that include US socialist billionaire George Soros.

      ALP/ALP now Trojan Horse.

      20

  • #
    David Maddison

    May I ask to view the engineering and economic analysis?

    What, there isn’t one? It’s just a thought bubble turned into another hugely expensive disaster?

    Incidentally, if someone wants to live in a remote area, that’s fine. But they should not expect other taxpayers to fund their lifestyle choice.

    191

    • #
      Graeme#4

      My thoughts exactly David. The total system only has to supply 3MW. Going to save 60% of the diesel? Pull the other one – King Island so far has only managed to save 45% with a near- identical system. So where is the cost analysis to justify spending $13m. to save 45% of their annual diesel costs?

      160

      • #
        Graeme#4

        Ok, here are some figures and calculations. According to the energy matters.com.au website, the 2014 Flinders Island Fuel Supply Study ( available online) advises that FI consumes 2.5 million litres of fuel a year, of which 36% is for power generation, of which 72% is diesel. And their diesel costs 187.1 c/l. Now if they achieve a 45% savings ( based on King Island savings), this amounts to an annual savings of around $561,000 a year. So the payback period for the $13.88m. initial cost, excluding any ongoing maintenance costs, is 24 years, more likely >30 years if maintenance is included. This seems to me to exceed the expected system lifetime, particularly with the batteries used and the start/stop running of the D-UPS. So I can’t ever see this system as saving anything.

        110

  • #
    el gordo

    Norfolk Island has too much solar and now they want battery storage to break away from diesel. The Local Council now forbids the erection of solar panels on the island.

    http://reneweconomy.com.au/norfolk-island-has-too-much-solar-now-it-wants-storage-58159/

    120

    • #
      Roger

      The Shetland Isles, off the coast of Scotland, have been engaged for a number of years in using renewable energy for electrolysis to generate hydrogen which is then stored as a fuel source.

      In past years they have used the stored hydrogen to power a turbine for electicity generation and there are a number of ongoing hydrogen projects based in the Shetlands. They have, for example, developed the first hydrogen powered car that is licensed for road use in the UK; another development is a floating generator using tidal energy to power electrolysis.

      Rather than point to a specific article here is the google search results for ‘Shetland Isles Hydrogen’:
      https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=shetland+isles+hydrogen&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=CuT-WaOHG_CGtgfplp7YCg

      41

      • #
        robert rosicka

        It sounds like a lot of expense to get where they did , I assume diesel is still used for tractors and trucks and boats , I also wonder if they have a diesel genset back up and how do they stabilise their supply ? So many questions .

        110

        • #
          Graeme#4

          Yes, they still have the existing diesel power station, installed in 1984. And they plan to add a Diesel UPS, plus the 1.6MW Ecoult Ultrabattery, to hold the system up when the wind fails and until the main diesel ramps up. Not sure if all diesels are ever shut down though.

          80

          • #

            Yep. More diesel. It’s a green thing.

            80

          • #
            Roger

            I agree, they haven’t found a solution, but it is always interesting to see what people are trying to achieve and what the outcome is. We can all learn from that.

            What strikes me about this and the Shetlands is that regardless of success or failure it is a community based project and because the community is involved in shaping it there is a breadth of thinking and local knowledge that is completely absent from government thinking. Too much environmental policy is now made by graduates with no real world or real environment knowledge or understanding – local communities that have cared for, preserved and shaped the environment through working the land are far better placed to shape policies.

            The other aspect of the Shetlands is the use of relatively, very small resource investment and that is the complete opposite of government led squandering of tax payers’ money.

            50

          • #
            Graeme No.3

            The latest plan in Shetland is to use the output from wind turbines to heat water.
            The main power supply for Shetland is provided by Lerwick Power Station, Opened on 27 May 1953 the station is diesel-fuelled and generates a total of 66 MW of power. This is the principal source of electrical energy for Shetland, However Lerwick Power station is reaching the end of its operating life, and currently about 20 MWe is provided by the Sullom Voe (oil terminal) power station which comprises 4 x 23 MWe Gas Turbines, the future of which is uncertain.
            The growth of output from wind turbines on Shetland has increased instability in the local grid (which is not connected to the national grid on mainland Scotland). SSE installed a 1 MW sodium-sulphur battery in a nearby building to ameliorate the peak loads. However due to safety concerns, the sodium-sulfur battery was removed prior to commissioning and the energy storage building was reconfigured to accommodate 3MWh of advanced lead-acid batteries.

            Shetland has also been the site of one of the UK’s most bitter disputes over renewable power. Thousands of islanders
            campaigned against a scheme to build the 370MW Viking windfarm, involving 103 turbines erected on the main island.
            That scheme finally won legal approval in 2015 but construction has yet to begin; it is waiting for a UK Government decision on subsidies and the installation of a national grid connection to mainland Scotland.

            The 3.68MW Burradale windfarm is located just a few miles outside Lerwick, the turbines at this windfarm have had an average capacity factor of 52%, and in 2005 averaged an incredible world record 57.9%.
            There are three Vestas V47 660kW turbines. The turbines are called Mina, Betsy, and Brenda.
            The second phase of the Burradale project saw two new Vestas V52 850kW turbines added (called Sally and Karen) in early 2003.
            The completed wind farm has a total output of 3.68MW – average 1.9 MW (less than 5% of demand).

            Pending decisions on subsidies (unlikely) or the cable link to Scotland (approved but subject to the usual government project delays) the newest idea is to send all the output of the wind farm to heating water in large tanks. This hot water would be circulated through district heating pipe to houses, shops etc. (there is an existing partial scheme installed).
            The advantages of this is that heating is required in Shetland (same latitude as Greenland) 12 months of the year, and that if power comes from Scotland then the system would still be valid and would reduce demand. Further plans are for tanks in other towns and on farms.
            This approach removes the instability from the system as variations in wind output are smoothed by the STORAGE capacity of the water, while reducing demand for electricity for heating.

            30

            • #
              Graeme#4

              Using the wind power to heat water sounds a better idea that King and Flinders Islands, where the expensive excess wind power will be wasted heating resistor banks.

              30

              • #
                Graeme No.3

                Graeme 4:

                Bear in mind the location of Shetland, roughly level with Bergen in Norway. I don’t know what the average yearly temperature is, except that Copenhagen is just below 8℃. Hobart is 12.5℃. The idea might work for Invercargill in NZ or in Australia on Macquarie or Heard Islands but it wouldn’t be feasible on the mainland.
                The advantage as I said is that it does provide storage for the fluctuating output of wind turbines. I believe some mob in S.A. is working on using molten silicon (which melts around 800℃) as an alterative storage idea. Turning that into electricity would be rather inefficient (for the benefit of trolls who haven’t heard of Carnot) that means it costs more.

                20

              • #
                Graeme#4

                From personal experience, Bergen was very pleasant ithis September and Norway certainly doesn’t need other energy sources than hydro – seems the streams and rivers never stop flowing at fantastic rates there.

                10

  • #
    David Maddison

    Advocates of “renewable” energy should be legally be required to only consume it themselves in their own homes, and must not be allowed to consume hydro* which is a legitimate engineered power production solution that predates solar and wind insanity that Greens don’t accept in any case. Properly designed* hydro is ours, not theirs although they can have the nonsense “Green” hydro such as the use of old mining pits and “turkey’s nest” dams built at the top of 100 metre oceanic cliffs.

    122

    • #
      ivan

      They would never accept that because they know it doesn’t work – they hope the plebs won’t realise this and so continue paying through the nose for unrleiables.

      50

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Dave: I once did a ‘back of envelope’ calculation on a hydro storage scheme that could supply SA based on the plateau above the Bight.
      With the minimum 80m drop to the ocean available I calculated that it would require a pond 3m high by 740km long by 200km. wide.
      The outflow would have to be to the Great Australian Bight so I realised that the Greenies would never accept the plan lest it upset the whales.
      Engineers and those who had to pay for it probably wouldn’t have been in favour for other reasons.

      As for the “turkeys nest” dams I notice that most of the (possible) sites in SA are in the northern Flinders Ranges, which are often very dry. That means the sea water would have to be pumped uphill (and inland) so the losses would be higher than claimed. Equally the discharge wouldn’t be anywhere near vertical so further inefficiency. And there is the faint possibility that should the jerry built dam give way that parturalists might object to sea water flooding their land and demand compensation (money).

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    Here’s a simple equation: GREEN = DIESEL. That’s why Big Oil funds the War on Coal and promotes nuke scares.

    Coca-Cola isn’t worried about people drinking mineral water or tea. Coca Cola is worried about Pepsi Cola, its actual competitor. Big Oil is worried about coal and nukes, its actual competitors. Big Oil likes ineffective energy sources which will require more of its product, either as permanent or emergency supplementation.

    This should be obvious. And while new technologies and sources have put downward pressure on oil prices those prices can nonetheless jump at any time (they’re creeping up right now). And quite apart from the problem of price, supply itself can become an issue. This is why China wants to avoid certain straits and sealanes by cutting through Burma and Thailand, just to give one example out of many.

    Such are the geo-messes we are buying into when we “go green”. Our coal is our peace.

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      By the way, I’m making a general point about the urgent need to unburden, extend and modernise our domestic coal industries. If an island somewhere needs to run diesel gennies for a few hundred people, so be it. If a whole state or region proposes diesel as a source of electricity tell them no. Prohibit it. Because 1970s.

      140

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    David

    Both Flinders and King Islands sit on 40 degrees South and they are not called the Roaring Forties as a flight of fancy. The problem is they are not always roaring. I have had 40 knots across the deck at 40 degrees South and also not a breath of wind other than the apparent wind caused by my vessel’s movement.

    I wonder if anyone has really canvassed the opinion of those who live on those Bass Strait islands whether they want to rely on [choke] renewables. I believe that the big windmills are no good over certain wind strengths as they have to be shut down to avoid failure – is that right?

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    This article really needed an intro so I’ve added one:

    If there is a heaven for renewables, this Island should be it. But instead, even on Flinders Island, renewables aren’t cheaper than diesel generators. This is a dismal reality, yet the ABC promotes it as a fantasy poster-isle, interviewing only vested or “no idea” people, asking no critical questions, doing no counter research and telling us renewables will be “more reliable” and implying they are cheaper too. The ABC is a three-million-dollar-a-day advertising outlet for other government agencies. Instead of serving Australians it appears to be there to help shake down the taxpayer.

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      robert rosicka

      I’ll do some searching but I’m sure this reporter did a spleel on a research ship of alarmists that came up with the remarkable claim that almost no coral could be found around an island which I think was Somoa .
      Of course it was all because of climate change and in reality the coral was fine .

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      Graeme#4

      They are spreading like diseases Jo, and one is coming soon to an island near us – Rotto. Also perhaps Coober Pedy. At least Kangaroo Island has rejected the concept as too expensive.

      40

      • #
        robert rosicka

        Coober pedy has already turned to the dark side of the force and locals were not happy with the price increase .
        They kicked up a stink when the authorities tried to ban all home generation units no matter what form they were but had to relent although anyone with solar or portable generators have to be stand alone and not tied to the grid .

        50

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          In this case, the authorities are not being awkward, they are being pragmatic.

          So much relies on the stability of “the mains frequency” – clocks, medical equipment, etc., that you can’t have multiple sources for mains power. The frequencies just interfere with each other, and confuse any appliance that is attached to a normal socket.

          This is why the power generation companies spend a lot of their consumer’s money in keeping all of the wind mills synchronised, and in phase with each other, from a frequency perspective.

          30

          • #
            bobl

            Rereke, this really isn’t the case. Consider a sine wave with a peak voltage of 339V cycling from 339V to -339V, consider another source which is antiphase to that, so when source A is at 339V its at -339V. Now connect the two together and the peak difference is 678V with nearly zero ohms between them, 678V/0 ohms = BANG

            A grid that has frequency issues has generators that are displaced in voltage from each other if allowed to continue something goes BANG and the magic smoke gets out.

            You do know that all electrical gizmos are powered by magic smoke don’t you, Proof? if you let the magic smoke that makes them work out – they don’t work any more. Almost as good as magic CO2 causes global warming of 100 times the calorific value of the fuel burnt to make the CO2.

            00

        • #
          RickWill

          That should be the requirement for any intermittent generation. Any amount on any grid creates instability. With a small grid it only takes a small amount of uncontrolled variable input to cause instability. On a large grid it takes more intermittent generation to cause problems but the result is the same.

          So far only SA has enough connected intermittent generation to cause instability. The costs to overcome that is going to be astronomical in terms of what has already been spent.

          Ultimately it is cheaper for households to get off the grid and make their own. The energy source is the same whether it is collected on a roof or a field at some remote location.

          Flinders has a population around 900. Say about 400 premises. I expect $30,000 average spent on each of those premises would provide a reliable supply at around 99.9% availability. So a total of $12M and there are no poles and wires to maintain.

          20

        • #
          Geoff Sherrington

          RR,
          Underground homes and offices are the go at some opal fields.
          What’s not to like about underground windmills?

          20

          • #
            bobl

            I can build a nuke plant, gas, or diesel under a mountain if I want (assuming air supply) secure even from nuclear attack, just try building solar and wind farms under a mountain

            00

    • #
      rk

      https://www.aerotorque.com/sites/default/files/16-WhyWindTurbineGearboxesFail-%20Whitepaper.pdf

      Gear boxes and bearings will always be a problem. Regardless of the feathering mechanism to lock the blade horizontal to the airflow in strong winds this will not stop the stress on the blades and gear boxes because in thunderstorms the wind can be straight down vertically at high speed and change direction quite suddenly. Also it is impossible to keep the blades balanced over time because of damage from the elements and uneven movement of mass outwards. All aircraft propellers have to be checked and balanced after 2000 hours and helicopters balanced in opposite pairs after six months, something not possible with wind turbines

      You could not get a worse place to put a wind turbine than up on an exposed ridge with the passage of severe storms. They have to shut down above 42C because of over heating and no equipment like soar and wind can withstand direct lightning strikes.

      40

      • #
        rk

        Let me amplify a little more of what happens with the passage of severe storms and I am talking of storms with tops well above 30,000′, as the storm line passes a point on the ground the wind veers instantaneously 180 degrees the other way, up draughts will then hit the blades as the upper areas of the storm are fed by this inflow and then down draughts sometimes in excess of 150 m.p.h laden with big hail will hit anything in it’s path. This will be accompanied by many lightning strikes. Many years ago a B52 flew through thunderstorm conditions in the US and emerged with only two feet of the tail or vertical stabilizer still intact. To think that you could provide base power with wind turbines subject to these forces, especially during hot summer months is madness.

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    Antoine D'Arche

    hmmmm…..
    “The use of diesel is a large expense. The overall price for their electricity won’t be going down but it will put pressure on future prices.”
    I’m sure it will put pressure on future prices, to go up!
    The enabling technology that they have modularised into shipping containers will be gas turbines. Like the GE ones SA are buying, I suspect. Otherwise they would have proudly named their enabling technology.
    Mr Roarke, Mr Roarke, de plane, de plane!
    Thank you, Tattoo.

    61

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    James Murphy

    It seems like ‘mongrel’ may be a better term than ‘hybrid’ in the context of ‘hybrid energy solutions’

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    Reality Observer

    I am conflicted… One of my favorite authors lives on Flinders Island. On the one hand, the blackouts will reduce his output when the word processor goes down. On the other hand, the price of electricity will force him to get to work and work harder when he does have it (he tends to be easily distracted).

    Will I get more or less new stuff from him?

    60

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    Ted O'Brien.

    It’s late and I haven’t read it yet, but glancing at the headlines I see a likely opportunity to trash the ABC.
    The ABC operates under a different set of rules to other media. They are subject to a charter. Here we have a story which has close set boundaries, and easily determined numbers. The ABC is surely not free to mislead the population with impunity, however they do get away with it in the confusion of the wider world.
    Tomorrow I will read this story with a view to seeing the ABC held accountable for any misrepresentation.

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  • #

    Oh my. I’m feeling a little guilty. Perhaps too many mistook satire for fact.

    Vattenfall propose to exploit its experience in wind and hydro-power, deploying a chain of wind turbines, wave, tidal and pumped storage within Bass Strait. The ambitious plan is to build two land-bridges joining Cape Otway in Victoria to Cape Grim in Tasmania, via King and smaller Islands to the East; and Wilsons Promontory in Victoria to Cape Portland in Tasmania, via Flinders, Cape Barren and minor islands.

    The initial construction of walls for the land bridges is projected to take 12 years, simultaneously building “out” from islands and capes. Wind and wave power stations will be installed and connected to the grid progressively. Land bridges will then be strengthened to dam the ocean out from Bassland as pumping stations, powered by wind and wave, pump out the interior.

    Looks like they’ve begun initial construction. :-P

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    • #
      Old44

      Can hardly blame them, it is difficult to distinguish satire from fact when climate change is being discussed.

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      Another Ian

      Bernd

      I know an oil bloke who’s opinion of Bass Strait is along the lines of “I thought the North Sea was dangerous till I got to Bass Strait”.

      Maybe they’ve yet to ask his opinion?

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      • #
        James Murphy

        the sea temperatures are not amazingly different between Bass Strait, and some parts of the UK sector of the North Sea – not enough to worry about if you are floating in it, as death from hypothermia will be extremely fast in either case.

        Strangely (to me), Esso in Bass Strait did not (and probably still don’t) require their personnel or contractors to do cold water helicopter escape training, and survival suits/rebreathers were (are) not required for helicopter travel. The only requirement was long sleeved shirts/jackets, long pants, and enclosed footwear. Supposedly the lifejacket would provide enough visibility… and the rescue chopper and local supply boats would be mobilised within enough time that survival suits were not needed. I never believed this to be an adequate system in summer, or winter.

        Yet Origin, and other companies working in Bass Strait required survival suit and rebreather training, and for them to be worn during all flights. Survival suits are not comfortable, especially on long chopper flights, but I would rather be uncomfortable and able to survive for a while, and be seen in the water, than not – assuming one survived a helicopter ditching into the remarkably rough seas, even though the choppers have flotation devices to keep them from sinking, or, ideally, to keep them from turning over.

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        David

        AI the difference in average depth of the North Sea [around 90 metres] and Bass Strait [around 50 to 60 metres] is not all that different. What makes Bass Strait such a nasty piece of water is that the prevailing Westerly winds build up long high swells off the Continental Shelf which, to a sailor, are quite comfortable. When these long swells enter the Strait and encounter shallower water they become a lot shorter and steeper and quite uncomfortable even for relatively big vessels.

        I have sailed both and I am inclined to agree with the “oil bloke”.

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    Old44

    To put Flinders Island’s population into perspective it is less than 1/3 the capacity of the Palais Theatre in St Kilda.

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      Dennis

      It’s time then for a stand alone hybrid electricity supply for the Palais Theatre – sarc.

      Which reminded me of the City of Sydney sustainability based green power project, garbage powered generators in the basement of CBD buildings to run air conditioning and other power needs.

      The multi million dollar project was to be ratepayer funded with state government taxpayer funded grants added. I am not aware of any news reports about the success of the project, or even that it proceeded beyond the first basement installation.

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    Dennis

    No doubt Tasmania local government councils are participating in the UN Agenda 21 implementation, sustainability programme.

    So the Flinder’s Island Mayor’s comments are not at all surprising are they.

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    James Murphy

    I’ve spent a bit of time on drilling rigs in Bass Strait, and East of King Island. The presence of wind is not an issue, but having the “goldilocks” wind speed for wind turbines could be, given how often crane operations were shut down due to wind speed ( > 35-40 knots – if I recall correctly, but I may be wrong). There were also days when it was so calm that helicopters occasionally had to reduce passenger loads after doing a short “test” hover above the deck at each departure from the rig.

    Even then (12-ish years ago), I thought it impractical to need (at least) 2 sources of power generation to cover all scenarios when it came to anything but a pretty low power requirement threshold. As the weather was a constant source of conversation (especially on the day when one was due to go home), it transpired that quite a few others shared this same idea, though we never investigated it in any detail, so it is all somewhat subjective.

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    Old44

    Between 4:00pm and 7:00pm last night wind power on Flinders Island fell to zero. Hope the desiel generator doesn’t break down.

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      Graeme#4

      They will have battery backup and the D-UPS diesel system to prevent blackouts. However, running the D-UPS diesel in start/stop mode continuously would trouble me – the original purpose of no-break systems were to remain dormant, only operating occasionally. I believe Tas Hydro have initiated studies about operating diesel generators in start/ stop mode, so I think this is a potential problem area.

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        robert rosicka

        The king island D UPS system was going earlier but not sure why unless it was because the wind was erratic .

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        • #
          Graeme#4

          That’s what worries me. I’m wondering if they only power up the other original diesels if there is too much load for the D-UPS, rather than keeping at least one diesel idling in the background. As I’ve commented, stopping and starting the D-UPS diesel, if that’s what they are doing, would seem to impact its mechanical reliability long-term.

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    Manfred

    ‘Enabling technology’
    They should simply switch to LPG gas turbine power and be done with it. Efficient, stable, plentiful base load power, effectively ad infinitum, or perhaps until Lockheed Martin eventually produce their compact fusion reactor for commercial purposes.

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    PeterS

    We all know the ABC favours renewables and is the “authoritative” Australian source of propaganda supporting the man-made global warming myth. What I find odd is why the focus of attention on them when we also all know they will not change their stance without a major force to make them change not from within as that is impossible but from outside. We have a PM who actually supported the ABC well before he became PM and still does. We should be attacking the PM not the ABC as our energies are misdirected and in fact wasted fighting the ABC. We should make sure the next leader of the LNP promises to do something about the ABC propaganda machine. By the looks of things a new leader will come much sooner than we thought. As long as both major parties keep supporting the ABC their propaganda will not cease and in fact will increase regardless of how much huffing and puffing we do at them. We need a new leader of the LNP with the right sentiment to fight the propaganda ABC by making some hard decisions and changes. After all the ABC is soaking up lots of our money and given we disagree vehemently with the ABC’s propaganda, we should be attacking the people responsible for funding them, namely our government headed by what is without a doubt one of the most useless PMs of all time.

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    Another Ian

    Just the fore-runner of bigger things!

    “100% renewable electricity in Australia”

    Link at

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2017/11/100-renewable-e.html

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      PeterS

      100% rewewables is doable but at what cost? It would make the NBN look trivial in terms of cost, much like comparing the cost of a brand new space shuttle to the cost of a small new car. More to the point would it have any measurable impact on the climate? Of course the answer is no. So those who are in favour of moving to more and more renewables are economic vandals of the worst kind.

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    Robber

    Hydro Tasmania – “the battery of the nation.” What a pity they aren’t allowed to build any more dams.
    “6751 current GWh Energy in Storage. 46.8% current % of Full Storage Energy as at 30/10/2017.”

    Tas has 2,260 MW of installed hydro generators. Total Tas demand averages 1000 MW.
    That 6751 Gwh in storage is enough to run at 770 MW for a year.
    So if ever there is a place that has cheap electricity, it should be Tas.
    But the wholesale price in Tas is averaging 8.9 cents/KWhr and has doubled since 2015 like the rest of Australia (excl WA), because Hydro Tas is making large profits selling into the AEMO grid.

    For comparison, it seems wholesale prices in NZ are around 5.5 cents, with peaks around 7 cents.

    I will vote for an Aussie pollie who guarantees a return to affordable electricity. Stop the rorts!

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    Robber

    More on Flinders Island from Hydro Tasmania:
    The project involves the construction of an additional single wind turbine (located on the ridgeline above Lady Barron Road) and solar generation (built at the existing diesel power station), and the installation of enabling technology, such as flywheel and battery energy storage.
    The $12.88 million project is supported by up to $5.5 million funding from the Australian Renewable Energy Agency.
    Electricity is supplied by 4 diesel generators, which are supplemented by two wind-powered generators. Hydro Tasmania are developing the Flinders Island “Hybrid Energy Hub” with the support of the Australian Renewable Energy Agency. With the construction of a single 900 kW wind turbine and 200 kW solar field, the “Hub” will be capable of displacing 60% of the annual diesel fuel used to generate electricity on Flinders Island. The system will be fully operational in 2017.

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    • #
      Graeme#4

      I saw the 12.88m. Figure, but the Arena website, who are supplying the 5.5m., claims the overall project cost is 13.88m. So who is correct? Regardless, as per my calculations in 11.1.1, it’s only going to save around 560,000 a year, so the savings will never repay the initial outlay during the system’s lifetime.

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  • #

    The ABC is a major enabler of Leftists and Warmistas, and puts a lot of ‘downward pressure’ on clear thinking and common sense these days. I am glad that I got to see most of Tasmania before it was scarred irreparably by bat and bird chomping windmills serving only a Leftist and Warmista agenda and virtue signalling syndrome.

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      PeterS

      The ABC is a major enabler of Leftists and Warmistas, and puts a lot of ‘downward pressure’ on clear thinking and common sense these days.

      So is Trunbull’s “Liberal” party. Actually the Liberal Party has changed to follow it’s name sake in some of the meanings of the word “liberal” such as:
      1. “willing to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own; open to new ideas” – that’s obvious as the LNP has now adopted the views of the left.
      2. “(often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.” – that’s a perfect description of the current LNP adopting views of the left and in a few cases even the far left.

      There are other definitions of the word “liberal” that denote a completely different meaning closer to the original points of view for the LNP. To avoid confusion and such obvious contradictions in definitions in the eyes of the world as well as “modern” Australia, the Liberal Party has to be terminated and allow a new party to be formed that stands for the centre right of politics to oppose the centre and far left politics afforded by the ALP and Greens, and the ABC propaganda machine for both major parties. Thank you PM Turnbull for providing such an opportunity. The likes of Pyne and others can either join the ALP or retire. Good bye Liberal Party, I hope you get a quick death to make room for a new party. Of course the other option for the party to take on a new leader and go back to a centre right position but even if that were possible, which I doubt for a number of reasons, they still should get rid of the name “Liberal” in the name of the party for the above reasons and use a more accurate and appropriate name. I prefer a fresh start to be honest even if that means a term or two under Shorten. It matters not anyway since the LNP under its current form will lead to exactly the same economic position as that under Shorten’s party. At least Shorten is honest in his political stance so that’s one point in his favour as compared to Turnbull’s party, which is a fake “Liberal” party. Unless the Liberal Party changes in one of the ways above, the ABC will in fact grow in strength.

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    robert rosicka

    I notice on king island quite often diesel is generating 70% of their power needs , all well and good to make claims of what hybrid renewable schemes “could” theoretically produce just from wind or solar “if” the sun shines and “if” the wind blows .
    Reality tells a different story though and for all the propaganda nowhere does it say the extra expense for having wind + solar + batteries + diesel as opposed to just diesel generated power .

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    manalive

    There has been a ‘community wind farm’ operating in Hepburn (Vic) since 2010.
    Being a financial dummy I stand to be corrected but the annual report for 2016 indicates that $743,673 of the gross annual revenue of $1,151,830 came from “Large Scale Generation Certificates” resulting in a net annual profit of $458,738 or almost 50% — not bad.
    The sale of real, actual, electrons brought in $417,836.

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    Tom

    Out of the hundreds of federal, state and local government sinecures, the ABC is alone in campaigning 24 hours a day, seven days a week against the public interest for a group of grant miners hell-bent on destroying the Australian economy.

    Shut. It. Down. Fire. Them. All.

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      PeterS

      Who are you telling to shut it down? Turnbull and his government is certainly not going to listen – he in fact supports the ABC’s propaganda.

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    Briden

    It’s nice that they are going to put some downward pressure on costs but does anyone know how much they have spent on capital in order to stabilise those running costs?

    30

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      $12.88 million – see Robber at Comment 29. Of course being a Green project there will be extra expenditure and cover up of the final cost.

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    pat

    “globalist malarkey” from the Beeb:

    5 Nov: BBC: Anger over Trump support for coal at UN climate talks
    By Matt McGrath
    Plans by the Trump administration to promote coal as a solution to climate change at a major UN meeting have angered environmentalists.
    An adviser to the president is expected to take part in a pro-coal presentation in Bonn this coming week…

    “Fossil fuels having any role in tackling climate change is beyond absurd. It is dangerous,” said Andrew Norton, director of the International Institute for Environment and Development.
    “These talks are no place for pushing the fossil fuel agenda. The US needs to come back to the table and help with the rapid cuts in emissions that the situation demands.”
    Long-time talks participant Alden Meyer from the Union of Concerned Scientists added: “It’s not a credible solution, but that doesn’t seem to bother them.
    “They might even welcome some of the reaction to show to their base that they are fighting for America’s interest and not this globalist malarkey.”…

    The talks are being chaired by Fiji, which is the first time a small island developing state has taken this role. As such, questions of climate impacts are likely to be in the spotlight, including the tricky question of loss and damage.
    This is a potential area of significant disagreement as the richer countries are strongly opposed to any implied legal liability for the damages caused by climate related extreme weather events.
    Around 20,000 delegates and visitors will attend the meeting over two weeks.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41859283

    4 Nov: NYT: ELISABETTA POVOLEDO: At Vatican, ‘Tenets of Faith’ Seen as Crucial in (Vatican) Climate Change Effort
    Persuasion “starts with the tenets of faith” more than with scientific data, said the Rev. Leith Anderson, president of the United States-based National Association of Evangelicals, noting that most of the world’s population has some religious affiliation. “Environmental catastrophes” like recent storms, flooding and droughts, he said, “create opportunities to persuade.”…
    (The Rev. Mitchell C. Hescox, president of the Evangelical Environmental Network) added: “The way to move conservatives around the world is to talk about how it impacts or affects their children, their own lives.”
    The three-day conference on public health and the planet, which ended Saturday, was hosted by the Pontifical Academy of Sciences…

    The participants shared “the most recent solid science on how climate change and air pollution undermines health, increases chronic diseases and the early results on how it impacts the brain,” said Joachim von Braun, the president of the Pontifical Academy. “Science is not just pointing at the environmental consequences of climate change, but also human health consequences” that affect both the poor and the wealthy…

    Jerry Brown, the governor of California, who also spoke at the conference, underlined the importance of religious leaders’ involvement. “Until religious leaders from every part of the world and every denomination are engaged, we will not be able to move aside the huge rock of indifference, complacency and inertia,” he said.
    “The American people in the majority are very much in support of serious climate action,” said Mr. Brown, who will head to the United Nations’ climate change conference this coming week in Bonn, Germany…
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/world/europe/vatican-climate-change-opope.html

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    • #
      PeterS

      That is worse than the submarine deal in SA. Running the whole of Australia on solar battery is like ripping out the nuclear reactors of the US submarine fleet and replacing them with an extension leads to some battery at home base. How many more self destructive ideas can this nation take before we collapse into the abyss?

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    pat

    4 Nov: Canberra Times: Finbar O’Mallon: Canberra’s rental property landlords need incentives to install solar panels
    Canberra renter ***Alex Lamb is lobbying her body corporate to install solar panels on her apartment block and believes it should be an ACT-wide trend.
    “It’s an exciting city which is constantly being developed towards a vision … I’d like to see Canberra as a model for the rest of Australia,” Ms Lamb said.
    “My motivation is the environment. I want to do my bit to reduce pollution.”
    She said it would also lead to lower electricity prices and would increase the value on the property, an incentive for landlords and buyers…

    Tenants Union ACT executive Deb Pippen said there were few incentives for Canberra’s landlords to add improvements like solar panels.
    “The benefit would be for the person who lives in the property but then the landlord would say, ‘Well ,what’s the use in me putting it in?’,” Ms Pippen said.
    She said the federal government could change negative gearing to allow tax incentives for installing things like solar panels, or even fibre-optic internet connections…

    The main concern at Ms Lamb’s property was, because of the nature of the roof, solar panels would be hard to install and could damage the roof…
    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/canberras-rental-property-landlords-need-incentives-to-install-solar-panels-20171104-gzex8o.html

    ***”Canberra renter” Alex Lamb:

    Solar Share: About the Team
    Project Advisers
    Communications
    Clare De Castella
    Clare has over 20 years experience in marketing and communications across a range of sectors including renewable energy. She now works for the Australian National University Climate Change Institute. She has a History degree from Cambridge University and a Masters in Environmental Management from the University of New South Wales. She is excited about helping launch community solar into the ACT.

    ***Laura Ealing
    Laura works in environmental policy and program management for the federal government…

    ***Alex Lamb
    Alex has worked in media, politics and non-governmental organisations. She currently works as the advocacy and policy adviser for international humanitarian and development organisation, CARE Australia, and contributes to a range of local initiatives to support the environment and social justice. She is excited by Canberra’s bold vision to power the city 100% through renewable energy and reduce its greenhouse gas emissions to zero, and sees SolarShare as an innovative contribution to reaching this collective goal.

    Steve O’Connor
    In addition to being a doting father and busy IT professional, Steve O’Connor has been trained by Al Gore to be a leader with the Climate Reality Project and has written several articles about climate change that have been published on The Drum (ABC), Crikey and New Matilda.
    Last year, Steve was a field co-ordinator for the Say Yes campaign, organising a climate change community forum at ANU with speakers representing viewpoints from youth, economics and climate science. Previously, Steve was a contributor at Skeptical Science, which won the 2011 Eureka Prize for advancement of climate science knowledge…
    https://solarshare.com.au/about/the-team/

    registration required, but this is SolarShare’s Laura Ealing, apparently:

    LinkedIn: Laura Ealing, Policy Officer at Commonwealth Department of Sustainability, Environnment, Water, Population and Communities
    In my spare time I have been helping out with Solarshare, an exciting project to set up…
    https://au.linkedin.com/in/laura-ealing-18993732?trk=pub-pbmap

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    pat

    behind paywall:

    4 Nov: UK Telegraph: SSE eyes domestic energy market exit as price cap looms
    By Jillian Ambrose
    Britain’s second-largest energy supplier is eyeing the exit as the Government’s crackdown on energy bills threatens profits.
    SSE, formerly known as Scottish and Southern Energy, may turn its back on supplying gas and power to almost 8m British homes ­after years of political threats against the six largest energy companies comes to a head.

    City sources say the FTSE 100 energy giant is quietly discussing early plans to sell off its customer accounts, or even spin the business off as a separate listed company in order to focus on networks and renewable energy and avoid the Government’s looming energy price cap…
    “At this stage the business is more trouble than it’s worth,” said one investment banker who has spoken with SSE executives…
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/11/04/sse-eyes-domestic-energy-market-exit-price-cap-looms/

    bad timing for Bonn?

    4 Nov: UK Mirror: UK Weather: ‘La Nina’ cold snap could see temperatures dip to -10 as first snow of winter hits next week
    Reason for the cold snap down to La Nina – the cooling of the eastern Pacific Ocean – which reduces Britain’s mild westerly winds and could even bring a White Christmas
    by Alistair Grant & Dave Himelfield
    Bookies have slashed their odds of a white Christmas to 2/1 after weather experts predicted a big freeze.
    And as the North’s first snow falls from Tuesday in a week-long cold spell, the Met Office three-month November to January forecast warned of colder-than-normal shivers this month and in December.
    The Cabinet Office, councils and transport chiefs are being briefed by the Met Office about the impacts of potential snow and ice on travel…

    Britain risks a repeat of the chills La Nina helped create in 2010, when the famous Big Freeze whiteout hit. That November saw -13C lows, 15 inches of snow in the north and snow seven inches deep in the south.
    The Met Office said La Nina is set to impact Britain again now, although this La Nina event’s intensity is not expected to be as strong as in 2010…

    Widespread snow and ice are a “much higher” threat than in recent mild winters, said AccuWeather, the world’s second biggest commercial forecaster, which has annual turnover around $100million.
    All parts of Britain face being hit, the weathermen said.
    Lows are set to fall below -10°C this winter in the north, with the south also suffering shivers well below freezing, said AccuWeather.
    Travel chaos is expected on road and rail plus at airports. The elderly and ill face health impacts…
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-weather-white-christmas-cards-11465562

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    pat

    comment in moderation re: 4 Nov: UK Telegraph: SSE eyes domestic energy market exit as price cap looms

    6 Nov: SMH: Ellen McCutchan: Goulburn residents take renewable energy into their own hands with solar farm
    In Goulburn, a group of residents and businesses has come together to build a community-funded 1.2-megawatt solar farm, with 4000 panels and the capacity to power between 350 and 500 houses in the region.
    Clean Energy 4 Goulburn was formed when locals attended a sustainable energy forum with the NSW Office of Environment and Heritage three years ago, group president Ed Suttle said…

    Clean Energy 4 Goulburn, a committee of seven, wanted to raise $2 million to finance the project, half of which it hoped would come from the local community. So far, the group had 800 expressions of interest from potential investors…READ ON
    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/energy-smart/goulburn-residents-take-renewable-energy-into-their-own-hands-with-solar-farm-20171103-gzed41.html

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    Geoff Sherrington

    The King Island Scheelite mine was operated by the company I worked for from about 1965 to 1990, when it closed and was rehabilitated (winning awards for the quality of the rehab work).
    Mines use a lot of electricity. At King Island, it was always diesel. This was expensive and from time to time various people looked at alternatives including wind power. All such schemes were rejected after cursory examination showed them to be useless. 24/7 operations like mining need reliable electricity.
    Granted, the cost of windmills has come down and efficiency up, but I still suspect the same description to apply. Useless. Flinders Island seems to be showing that.
    Geoff.

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    robert rosicka

    OT , whenever we have a hottest evah they never qualify it quite like they do snowfall in November.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-06/bom-issues-severe-weather-warning-for-sydney-and-nsw-south-coast/9121316

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    robert rosicka

    Not really OT as it’s related to the topic but noticed the editorial policy guidelines of the ABC and had a quick look through , seems they have allowed themselves to be one sided while promising to be impartial.

    “4 Impartiality and diversity of perspectives
    The ABC has a statutory duty to ensure that the gathering and presentation of news and information is impartial according to the recognised standards of objective journalism. The ABC aims to present, over time, content that addresses a broad range of subjects from a diversity of perspectives reflecting a diversity of experiences, presented in a diversity of ways from a diversity of sources, including content created by ABC staff, generated by audiences and commissioned or acquired from external content-makers. Impartiality does not require that every perspective receives equal time, nor that every facet of every argument is presented.”

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      Robber

      Diversity of opinion on the ABC means having a leftist moderator, a greenie, an LGBTQIA spokesperson, and a leftie comedian. Oh, and occasionally a conservative to be mocked by all the others who agree among themselves.

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      robert rosicka

      Just reading about it before Dennis , love the advertising disguised as journalism for the Fabian society and their ALP preference.

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        Dennis

        Yes Robert, but there must be a spin doctor purpose in this, and with due consideration for the “socialism masquerading as environmentalism” and the present ALP/ALP partnership.

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      PeterS

      Yes socialism is definitely on the way out, except for some strange reason here in Australia. Perhaps Australia will become the centre of socialism. I doubt it though. Although Australian voters are often poor judges of parties, they are not that bad (I hope). I suppose if Shorten becomes the next PM, we can look forward to a new party to replace the dying Liberal Party so we can can a real choice once again.

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    pat

    more deceptive reporting involving theirABC.

    in comment #29 on jo’s “Germans get paid…” thread, I posted a 1 November Guardian piece, which included:

    -Queensland premier refuses to be drawn on reports a Labor candidate said Carmichael coalmine would not proceed
    The premier would not be drawn on reports a Labor candidate in Brisbane had told an ABC reporter the mine would not proceed.
    Palaszczuk also would not say whether she would be disappointed or relieved if the contentious mine did not go ahead, saying only “if it doesn’t financially ***stack up, it doesn’t go ahead, but that’s a matter for them”…
    Asked about reported comments by Labor’s candidate for Maiwar, Ali King, that the Adani mine would not happen, Palaszczuk said, ***“I haven’t heard those reports”.
    “But I’ve said very clearly it needs to financially ***stack up,” she said… -

    also posted a brief summary of a later Brisbane Courier Mail article:

    Queensland election 2017: Labor candidate ‘undermines’ Adani
    Courier Mail-3 hours ago
    Ali King, a former staffer to Environment Minister Steven Miles, … And she told an ABC journalist ***unequivocally the Adani project “didn’t ***stack up” and that it “will never happen.”…

    also mentioned I could not find any ABC article verifying any of this.

    as it turns out, on 2 November, ABC had the following re Ali King.
    note it first says “telling constituents” plural, changes it to “one of her constituents”, and then states the anonymous “homeowner” who happened to be a “senior ABC journalist” said King was “adamant” Adani’s figures did not ***”stack up”, the exact words attributed to Palaszczuk in the Guardian piece, even though Palaszczuk allegedly told the Guardian “I haven’t heard those reports”:

    2 Nov: ABC: Queensland election: Claim Labor candidate Ali King told constituent Adani mine would never happen
    The Adani coal mine continues to dog Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk, with reports one Labor candidate has been actively telling constituents it will never happen.
    Ali King, who is vying for the seat of Maiwar in Brisbane’s western suburbs, was caught out telling one of her constituents the $16 billion mine would never happen.
    The homeowner, who happened to also be a senior ABC journalist, maintains Ms King was adamant that Adani’s figures did not stack up.
    Ms King told the homeowner Labor had done the figures and it was not financially viable…

    ‘I never said that’
    Ms King, who is a lawyer and former political staffer for Labor’s Environment Minister Steven Miles, has denied she made the controversial comments while doorknocking yesterday.
    “I never said that — what I’ve said is that this Government has made its position very clear,” she said.
    “I am proud that this Government has made and kept its commitment not to provide public funding for Adani and whether Adani will go ahead or not is a question for its own merits.”
    Asked if the figures did indeed stack up, she said: “I am not a financial analyst for Adani.”…

    Palaszczuk unaware of doorknocking claim
    Dogged by Adani protests since the campaign began, Ms Palaszczuk has been forced to walk a fine line.
    She said she was unaware of the doorknocking allegations, but reiterated “everything that drives me is about jobs”.
    “Every project, whether it’s an LNG [liquefied natural gas] project, whether it is a gas project — if it doesn’t financially stack up, it doesn’t go ahead,” Ms Palaszczuk said.
    As far as Adani’s finances are concerned she said “that is a matter for them. I don’t have access to their books”.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-02/qld-election-claim-labor-candidate-adani-mine-will-never-happen/9110844

    btw Maiwar is always described as either inner-city or inner-west, not “western suburbs” as the ABC article has it. it is also a seat the Greens want to take, along with Jackie Trad’s seat, South Brisbane, which is another inner-city seat.

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    Mark M

    Heads Up!

    Hurry up!

    Seats are filling quicker than Australian dams during a drought!

    Professor Tim Flannery on Cities, Climate Change & Solutions

    Mon. 20 November 2017
    12:30 pm – 1:30 pm AEDT
    LOCATION
    Elisabeth Murdoch Theatre G06, Spencer Rd, University of Melbourne

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    pattoh

    The bottom line is if the sun ain’t shining & the wind ain’t blowin’ , the cows will NOT get milked.

    I will bet their attachment to cheese [ & the bottom line] will prove stronger than the their one shardi-lart up-manship virtue signalling.

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    Donald Macleod

    The same claim was made in May 2015 in the Sydney Morning Herald for Lord Howe Island. My letter to the SMH (not published of course) pointed out it was only a partial scheme and the grants alone represented $30,000 per resident. I was sure they would have preferred the money

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    Doonhamer

    Rainin’-or Shine?
    Hey, that was her school nick-name.
    But good name for some one pushing renewables.

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    pat

    6 Nov: ABC: SES centre reduced to half capacity during SA blackout, leaked report reveals
    The reliability of the State Emergency Service (SES) control centre in South Australia is under question after a leaked report claimed it was only a matter of time until it failed during a significant event.
    The internal SES report into last year’s state-wide blackout revealed the centre’s back-up generators did not provide adequate power during the crisis.
    “We had an unprecedented event. We had the entire state in blackout and our state emergency services control centre was running at half capacity,” Opposition emergency services spokesperson Stephan Knoll said…

    Treasurer Tom Koutsantonis had not seen the report until today, but said the Government would consider SES resource needs through the budget process.
    “We will go through and have a look at it and will work corporately with them,” he said.
    “If the SES require more resources we are happy to help them.”
    Emergency Services Minister Chris Picton had not seen the report but admitted there was “obviously improvements we need to make in terms of the SES facilities” to ensure it did not happen again in similar circumstances.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-06/ses-centre-reduced-to-half-capacity-during-black-out/9124188

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    pat

    ABC now picking this up:

    6 Nov: ABC: Interactive game developed by ANU designed to teach kids about climate science
    ABC Radio Canberra By Hannah Walmsley and Adam Shirley
    Students across the country are learning about climate change in senior high school years, as laid out in the Australian curriculum.

    But according to researchers at the Australian National University, waiting until students are 16 is too late.
    ANU science researcher Inez Harker-Schuch is developing an interactive online game called CO2peration, for children aged 12 to 14 to learn about climate science…

    Just the science
    Ms Harker-Schuch said adolescents as young as 12 deserved the power of knowledge to help them process complex issues.
    “I’m not interested in changing their opinion or giving them an opinion — I’m just interested in teaching the science,” she said…
    The game is currently undergoing testing in a selection of schools in Europe and Australia, before the expected public release in May.
    Ms Harker-Schuch has launched a Kickstarter campaign to fund the project, which runs until November 9.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-06/anu-develops-new-game-to-teach-kids-about-climate-change/9115276

    Aussie researchers develop climate science game for kids
    Xinhua-9 hours ago

    30 Oct: The Conversation: Why we’re building a climate change game for 12-year-olds
    by Inez Harker-Schuch, PhD candidate, Australian National University and
    Will J Grant, Senior Lecturer, Australian National Centre for the Public Awareness of Science, Australian National University
    (Inez Harker-Schuch receives funding from the Australian Government ‘Research Training Program’ (RTP) Scholarship)

    Teaching climate science as a series of physical processes and mechanisms establishes a factual foundation – in the same way we learn anatomy. This forms a knowledge foundation that can then, in higher grades, be used to talk about the socio-political aspects – when they are developmentally ready for such discussions…

    Teaching climate change in this way – as a specific, pure science – may diminish the influence of misinformation they’ll likely encounter at a later age, simply because they’ll understand it better…ETC
    CO2peration is being tested as part of a PhD at the Australian National University.
    https://theconversation.com/why-were-building-a-climate-change-game-for-12-year-olds-85983

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    Andrew

    So Unreliables can’t compete with coal. They can’t even compete with massively expensive diesel generation. We finally found something they can achieve parity with: Diesel, in a remote spot where the diesel has to be brought in on special supply ships.

    Great – now we have a benchmark for how high electricity prices have to go before we can all live in our Clean Energy Future. Looks like it’s about $400/MWh (wholesale).

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    bobl

    Hmm, there are 455 households on flinders island and they are spending 13 Million. That represents $28,571 per household. Wouldn’t it have been easier to just give them all $28K and ask them to make their own electricity?

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    Edward Irvine

    Can anyone point me to a link for this ABC program? Is it still available on iView? I’ve been following the performance of the hybrid power station for quite some time now, and I’d be very interested to watch program.

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    Edward Irvine

    Can anyone point me to a link for this ABC program? Is it still available on iView? I’ve been following the performance of the hybrid power station for quite some time now, and I’d be very interested to watch program.

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