JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

Moon, photo.oct 2017

Saw this extraordinary rock in the sky five minutes ago. Had to take a photo sitting on the lawn in the dark of something, apparently, 400,000 kilometers away. I do like the way the sun illuminates the weathered texture on the edge of the light.

Last week Jaxa announced they found a lava tube cave 50m wide and 50km long, with handy walls that may contain water in rock form. (Chilled, ready for cocktails). It might be a neat home for astronauts since on the surface, the daytime temperature range is 260 degrees C, the nights last two weeks, and the air contains levitating electrostatic abrasive dust. It’s poisonous too “like asbestos”. I can’t see the Sea of Tranquility taking tourists from Barbados.

The maxi cave is in Marius Hills, which as best as I can tell is on the dark part on the right hand side. Though it’s hard to tell. For some reason, people keep posting photos of this rock upside down.

Here’s a challenge,  in the daytime, the UV index is off the charts (if it gets to 14 in Darwin, what does it get to on the lunar surface? I can’t find the forecast, NOAA thinks its in Wisconsin, and nobody can tell me what SPF I need.)

Shot: f6.5, 215mm zoom, on knee @ 393,617 km.

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Rating: 9.9/10 (48 votes cast)
Weekend Unthreaded, 9.9 out of 10 based on 48 ratings

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256 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    RAH

    That shadow line allows one to see far more detail no matter what they are observing with. I don’t even look at a full moon with my 10″ Meade Starfinder telescope. In fact I don’t observe at all when the moon is full because it bleaches out so much of the rest of the observable heavens.

    I learned long ago I had to use a filter or use my most powerful eye piece combined with my Barlow when the moon was full. Otherwise it’s so bright it just plain hurts ones eyes. And then it’s really not worth it because the details are bleached out. Much more to be seen when there is a shadow line. The shadows provide depth. They allow one to see the actual topographical details. Looking every night as the shadow line progresses across the visible surface is the way to become familiar with the details. The problem is in my part of the world getting that many days of clear weather for observation during the right lunar cycle is tough.

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    • #
      James Murphy

      I remember one Christmas when “Santa” delivered a Tasco refracting telescope for my brother and I. Being…not very old, and not knowing any better, I was slightly disappointed that Saturn didn’t look like the pictures I had seen of it, but it was short-lived, and my curiosity soon took over in full force.

      The moon always got a good looking-at when it was only a sliver in the sky. My parents got bombarded with questions well beyond their errr… scope, and as it was pre-internet, answers were not thick on the ground. Thankfully for them (no doubt), there was an ancient set of encyclopaedia Britannica, and a decent library nearby, plus various other sources of information.

      Many years later, when I started working in central Australia, I used to like “dayshift” – from midday to midnight, as, after work, I could enjoy lying on a sand-dune, and looking up. No picture, or video can possibly do the Southern Hemisphere night sky any justice.

      180

      • #
        philthegeek

        I started off with a 60mm tasco. doGs, what a disappointment. Now my rule of thumb is not to buy or make anything less than 8 inch. That said i have a 4 inch Vixen (over 30 years old) i was given by a mate that at f10 is a very good planetary scope.

        Now, when i get my 11.5 inch f8 mirror finished…….:) Tried a 5 inch Mak but wound up selling it. Just doesn’t have the “light bucket” capability of a much cheaper and larger aperture Newt.

        :) Best view i ever had of Saturn was through a set of 20 inch binoculars. guy who owned them turned up on a night when the weather was supposed to be bad, but turned out to be luverly. Only 5 of us out that night with scopes of 10,12,16 and 20 inch Binos and Saturn directly overhead mid evening. :)

        In general, aperture wins every time.

        70

  • #
    sophocles

    That shadow line allows one to see far more detail

    Agreed. Along the shadow line is much more interesting.
    Another good time is during a lunar eclipse, when the moon is in the earth’s shadow.
    Earthshine is actually quite good. Unfortunately, they aren’t all that common.

    I have a simple 8″ (200mm) newtonian. Using its lunar filter to view “the rock” at any stage with any eyepiece is a must, except when it’s under earthshine.

    70

  • #
    RAH

    For those that don’t know. An “eye piece” is the magnifying portion one looks through. I own five different eye pieces, each providing a different level of magnification and field of view. A “Barlow” is a piece with lenses that one can insert into the focus aperture and then inserts the eye piece into it. The Barlow doubles or triples the magnification power of eye piece selected. Mine doubles the magnification. In general the higher the magnification the less the field of view and the less light that comes through the eye piece. By adding a Barlow one further cuts down on the amount of light. The more lenses, and the thicker they are, the less light that will reach ones eye.

    80

  • #
    robert rosicka

    Weird we have never been back to the moon after all these years , I suppose while NASA spend money chasing unicorns here on earth they may never take off to the stars again unless hitching a lift on a Russian taxi .

    113

    • #
      Yonniestone

      “we have never been back to the moon Nevada moon set after all these years” ……doncha mean?

      But wait!, since 2009 the NASA Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) has captured these images and more proving the Apollo landings happened.

      Lets hope no post modern science modelling or homogenisation was implemented….. ;)

      82

      • #
        robert rosicka

        I’ve heard about the conspiracy theories for the non moon landings , my favorite was the heckler who hounded I think it was Armstrong until he punched the guy and sat him on his backside .
        Not much one for conspiracies, climate science is just bad science not really a conspiracy.

        62

        • #
          joseph

          It wasn’t Armstrong. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the name of the astronaut who did the punching. I’ve got the vid somewhere . . . . . .

          30

        • #
          theRealUniverse

          There is more BS written about science almost as much as politiks (my guess) than most other disciplines. We know what klimate science is (psuedo science, trying to make weather look like climate change).

          I was never convinced the Moon landing was faked, but looked into the evidence..looked good (for the fakers in some aspects). Also there are actual Moon rock samples brought back to Earth!

          On the article headline..Moon has 260C temps in daylight yup it has NO atmosphere, well a minute amount of gas molecules hanging around near the surface, Makes Mars look like a high pressure vessel. No its not a tourist destination, nor in Mars even if you have a spare billion to pay the fare.

          The only other solar object we could go is Titan, rather cold and VERY smelly, like a big fart. (14% Methane).

          60

          • #
            Reality Observer

            Titan would probably smell like living next to an oil refinery – from a century ago.

            Not the methane, though, that is virtually odorless. It’s why they add a mercaptan (usually butyl mercaptan, the same compound in skunk oil), so that most people can detect a leak.

            10

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          Not much one for conspiracies, climate science is just bad science not really a conspiracy.

          “Climate Science”, definitely has the fingerprints of a conspiracy.

          Normal Science, in practically any field, has its practitioners at loggerheads over one detail or another, and feuds over minor details, can go on for decades.

          It is therefore amazing to me, that the so-called climate scientists can all manage to change their opinions, in lock-step, and all at the same time.
          If there is any debate, which is rare, it has all the opinion of being stage managed.

          Not all conspiracy theories are real. But some occur sufficiently well orchestrated, as to remove all doubt.

          140

          • #
            joseph

            Can’t disagree with you . . . .

            40

          • #

            Well, Rereke, ‘Not all conspiracy theories are real
            but some are more real than others.’
            h/t Big brother.

            40

          • #
            robert rosicka

            conspiracy Or scam

            20

          • #
            Frank

            RW
            I see why you hide out here, do the scientific bodies you work for know of your ‘theory’

            15

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Hi Frank,

              Yes, the governmental and scientific bodies I work for, are aware of my views, and see some merit in them.

              Were you wanting to make a point, with your question?

              51

              • #

                Do you have evidence for this lock step behaviour and conversely any evidence that the field is any less adversarial than others? What is your metric? or is it a feeling?

                Do you actually have visibility to what goes on in conferences, in reviewers comments, in staff tearooms, in research group meetings?

                14

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Ah! They were the questions that Frank should have asked, but didn’t! But not to worry, because Gee Aye rides into the melee, once again, to save the day.

                But to answer your question, not particularly, especially regarding staff tearoom conversations.

                But when you find yourself reading the same explanatory text, in multiple documents, published by multiple institutions, that are all destined for the eyes of the politicians, you do start to wonder if there is not just a little bit of back-room discussion, and tactical planning going on, to be sure, to be sure.

                In fact, I don’t believe that any scientist, worthy of the name, would not validate their arguments with colleagues, prior to talking to the money.

                Let us be honest. It is all about ensuring ongoing funding, and keeping your department alive, and financially viable. I would be interested in seeing any counter argument to that point.

                31

              • #

                Fashion achieves the same ends. Suddenly “overnight” everyone wears the same frilly idea on their sleeve. Looks like a phase change, or an order from above, but there’s no need for a conspiracy if you just call people names.

                There was never a secret command to dump bellbottoms, the order was broadcast on catwalks in Milan or Paris, and suddenly no one would be caught dead in them. Journalists spread the word.

                30

              • #

                SO RW… you chose “or is it a feeling”. That answer was complete rhetorical dross.

                10

        • #
          RoHa

          My brother and I cooked up a convincing case for the landings being faked about a day after they happened, just to confuse a friend.

          The best argument against the landings being faked is the fact that the Soviets never challenged them. The Soviets had the science and the motive to prove the fakery. They didn’t.

          But “conspiracy theory” is what they say to you when you find out what’s really going on. And it isn’t what the media or the governments are telling you.
          ______
          [PS: RoHa, it's a tad ambiguous in phrasing. Commenters may get the wrong idea here unless they read it carefully. -Jo]

          10

      • #
        Chris in Hervey Bay

        Buzz Aldrin.

        90

        • #

          Indeed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZGuRxtUJrw

          There are longer video’s (unfortunately with junky commentary) but it was clear that for about three minutes a guy called Bart Sibrel harassed and followed him, called him a thief repeatedly, a coward, and said he lied. It was fairly extreme provocation for a man who risked his life to accomplish so much. Buzz at 81 finally socked him hard even though the guy was taller, younger and heavier.

          182

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Thee are many Bart Sibrels floating around.

            Buzz landed a punch so hard that Sibrel nearly lost his balance. Some people ask for it a little too much and then they’re surprised when they finally get what they ask for. Sometimes there’s no choice if you want to keep your self respect.

            There is at least as much evidence that Armstrong and Aldrin landed on the moon as there is that human activity is causing climate change.

            The arguments saying no are always by those so ignorant that it’s comical.

            30

          • #
            Raven

            I don’t believe Buzz socked that guy.
            It was all staged and done with actors . . .

            La la la la la la la . . . :)

            00

          • #
            KinkyKeith

            Make one of those reds a green. Miss hit.

            11

      • #
        joseph

        Yonniestone,

        Don’t you think the footprints may have been tampered with just a little bit for them to have come up so clearly defined . . . . . :-)

        20

        • #
          Yonniestone

          I assure you NASA uses a ‘worlds best practice’ where satellite data is concerned…….it has the IPCC stamp of approval after all.

          20

        • #
          Joe

          Look more like squiggles made with the ‘footpath’ brush using a mouse in Photoshop ;) .

          10

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          Yeah, they forgot to turn the wind machine on. They look just too perfect to be real. Bad Karma. /sarc

          00

    • #
      Glen Michel

      you can see the reverse side in the Northern Hemisphere.Just as interesting.

      20

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Weird we have never been back to the moon after all these years…

      In those days NASA was worth something. But once the shine had worn off of going to the moon it was a very expensive trip just to do a few days exploration and return a few pounds of rocks. And that’s all the government and NASA could see.

      I remember being as excited about it as anyone and I stayed up that night in 1969 to watch the really poor quality video of Neal Armstrong jumping down to the surface in real time. It was something out of those Heinlein novels I read as a teenager suddenly come true. And after that was over I went outside and stared up at the moon which was easily visible without a cloud in the sky, standing there as though I could hope to see the landing site. And I sat on the edge of my chair the whole time the fate of Apollo 13 hung in the balance.

      The thing that got lunar exploration cancelled before the last 3 scheduled trips were completed was the price tag. And now that I’m a lot older and have a better grip on the relative worth of space projects I think I would make the same decision. The space shuttle was a much better use of our money. And now look at us, begging a ride from Vladimir Putin.

      We proved it could be done and we proved American knowhow could do it. But we also proved that once the novelty wore off there was no more will to do it or to spend the money.

      51

      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        But you had to admit, that without the US space program, and the target of getting to the moon first, the US R&D effort would never have found a way to create a writing device that worked in zero gravity.

        I believe its operational code name was Pencil, but don’t quote me on that.

        50

        • #
          Peter C

          I seem to remember that one could buy a Fisher Space pen for use here on Earth. It had a pressurized nitrogen propellant to psh the ink out. I think that NASA used it. The thrifty practical Russians used pencils.

          https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-nasa-spen/

          60

          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            You are totally correct, Peter.

            It was indeed the Russians, who used the technology that was the bet fit for purpose.

            The only major problem with the Russian system, though, was a failure of the pencils to be able to write in English. Shame about that.

            50

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Indeed, a lot of R&D was done for the space program and the pace of development was much faster than it would have been and we all benefitted from that. As simple a thing as the silicone sealant used to seal the spacecraft so the atmosphere the astronauts needed to stay alive wouldn’t leak away has probably sealed up more shower and tub enclosures than we’ll ever be able to count.

          I’ve even used the stuff to glue blocks from the block wall around the back yard back in place. It was and still is something that did a better job than mortar, considering that it’s flexible and can yield when more settling occurred over the years where if I had used the conventional method the blocks would have come loose again.

          But all that R&D had commercial and military incentive to do it so maybe the pace would have been slower but I think it would all happen without the space program.

          Pencils, of course, are the writing equivalent of the wheel, A pencil beats all that messy refillable ink pen by at least a mile and we’d never have that invention but for the need to write in zero g. ;-)

          20

          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            So you have a silicone sealant that will seal the gaps in block walls and ceilings, and floors, and doors, and windows … ? Who do you hate that much? ;-)

            00

            • #
              Roy Hoguee

              I realize that the concept of walled in yards is foreign to much of the rest of the world. It’s even foreign to the eastern U.S. But it’s quite standard in California. We don’t hate anyone but there’s an old saying, “Good fences make good neighbors.”

              The wall was here when I bought the place. And for all the years since Easter Sunday of 1970 the back yard has been home to one or more tortoises. And they have no real loyalty to a home like a dog and will wander off if they can. So a wall with a gate is imperative. A fence won’t do the necessary job either. Since they can’t see beyond the wall and the gate they accept those as a natural barrier and don’t try to escape. But they can see beyond a fence and that starts them working on that fence trying to get out. They’re very strong and they don’t know the meaning of the word frustration. So they work until they can get through or under it, even if it takes months or years. I’ve seen a fence where a tortoise got out. It was hard to believe one could get under a chain link fence but it did.

              And we need he wall to keep out the liberals, progressives, millennials and anyone else who thinks they know everything but know nothing. ;-)

              Anyway, you asked, so I answered.

              10

      • #
        Ian Hill

        Neil Armstrong please.

        For us in Australia the first moon walk happened on Monday and we were allowed to stay home from school to watch it.

        Ditto for me with Apollo 13.

        30

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Yes, Neil, not Neal. How could I forget? The one thing the space program couldn’t give us was a better memory. :-(

          30

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Better human or better computer memory…

            They landed on the moon relying on an onboard computer not even as capable as the first PC XT. They were getting faults all the way down because it was overloaded. Considering the stakes, Neil Armstrong was one cool clear headed pilot. I would have been in panic mode.

            40

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        As I remember it the moon was made of American Cheese that day.

        And as I watched a lot of that video earlier this morning, particularly, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon, I was struck by one thing — the astronaut’s answers to various questions appear to reflect their specialty as pilots and astronauts being their largest body of knowledge. When the question fell outside that realm they gave less specific, less certain answers. For instance, to the question about streaks of light they reported seeing, the answer wasn’t very satisfying, even to me, a guy who doesn’t doubt that they did what they said they did.

        Much was made of Armstrong’s failure to ever talk about his experiences as being evidence that the whole thing was a fake. But I think it’s a lot more to do with the fact that Neil Armstrong was a truly humble man and someone who valued his privacy. I know I would have been satisfied to settle down and teach rather than talking and answering questions over and over from every pipsqueak nut who wanted to prove I was a liar in order to make a big name for himself.

        50

        • #
          Ian Hill

          Right on Roy, Armstrong was chosen to be the first man to step on the Moon because they knew he would not use that fact to his advantage. His official biography “First Man” by James R Hansen (no not that one) explains this in the Chapter 25 “First Out”.

          As far as I was concerned at the time, to a fifteen-year-old Buzz Aldrin was equally the hero of the landing mission.

          20

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            I have no way to confirm this anymore but statements from NASA about why Armstrong was chosen as Apollo 11 commander make it very simple, he was the only civilian astronaut. The reason he was there might be complex or simple. But he commanded the mission and stepped on the moon first so those details are kinda moot now.

            At that time the militarization of space was a big concern and that made Armstrong a good choice. That he was also very cool under pressure, had good piloting judgment and also was not a publicity hound no doubt made his selection even more certain. They had some other sharp guys they could have chosen and did put them on subsequent missions. And they knew of no reason why the last few seconds of 11s descent would be a cliffhanger requiring intervention to get to a safe landing spot. In retrospect it’s not even clear that one of the other qualified astronauts couldn’t have done what Armstrong did.

            There is much written about Apollo 11 on the Internet and some of it is contradictory depending on who is writing. Only one of the references I found mentions the civilian aspect. But there are too many to read all of them.

            By the time I could have read the Armstrong biography I was more interested in the story of Jim Lovell and the ill fated Apollo 13 mission. How people perform under the extreme stress of a life or death situation that looks like death rather than life is much more compelling to me. They had a dead and theoretically unflyable spacecraft from the time the O2 tank exploded until their parachute opened.

            40

      • #
        Annie

        Roy…we were all just as excited by the moon landing and had our hearts in our mouths over Apollo 13.
        I still have some English newspapers from that time.

        20

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          I know it well. The news here was full of official wishes for a safe landing and if I may say it, people around the world praying for their safe return.

          20

          • #
            Rereke Whakaaro

            Meah … Getting them to the moon was just the preamble. Bringing them back again in one piece…; now that was the brilliance of the engineering.

            40

            • #
              Roy Hoguee

              The movie produced by Ron Howard about Apollo 13 inserted a statement by chief flight director Gene Kranz that apparently was not actually said. When Kranz was confronted by the head of NASA about the mission with the complaint that it would disgrace NASA or some similar remark, Kranz answered that, “It will be our finest hour.”

              I don’t remember the exact words and they aren’t in Lovell’s book. But the safe return of Apollo 13 was for certain, NASA’s finest hour.

              10

            • #
              Ted O'Brien.

              Yes, but!

              I was not so much amazed that men could go to the moon and back, (it was only a glorified motor car that took them there) as I was that we could sit in our lounge rooms and watch them doing it.

              00

  • #
    Graeme No.3

    Why look at the moon? We have plenty of LUNAtics on view (unfortunately) in Canberra.

    110

  • #
    Another Ian

    “Important facts to remember as you grow older”

    http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=1870525

    30

    • #
      Another Ian

      And from gliding.

      If your out, have plenty of height and it is time to go home you can point the nose at your home strip and ignore any passing thermals. Called a final glide.

      If you’ve got to the three score and ten you’re on a different sort of final glide. So you better check out anything interesting on the way. IMO.

      90

  • #
    auralay

    Some years ago, in a mid-life crisis, I emigrated the family from (Old) South Wales to New Zealand. We arrived in early January. My first look at the evening sky through the incredibly clear air showed my favourite constellation, Orion, bright in the sky but UPSIDE DOWN! Of course I knew I was “down under” but it was still an emotional shock. ( The emigration didn’t work out, unfortunately. Too many whinny English people.)

    50

    • #
      John of Cloverdale WA

      The first Englishman to visit NZ was certainly not a whinner but a doer. As well as a great ship’s captain, Cook was a great navigator. But he was humble enough to accept Polynesian help Endeavour’s first Pacific voyage of discovery, when in 1769 he signed on the great Polynesian navigator, Tupaia. The Tupaia story is an interesting one and is told in a book by Joan Druett,a description of which is found here: Tupaia

      70

    • #
      Annie

      Orion upside down was a bad shock to me too although I knew it would be the case. I’m always glad to see my old friend Orion return after a few months absence but he does look a bit silly with his sword pointing the wrong way.

      10

  • #
    • #
      Sceptical Sam

      Excellent.

      The red thumbers have turned green with embarrassment it would seem.

      Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.

      21

    • #
      Wayne Job

      Thankyou clipe, Some fifty odd years ago i was taught in my science or physics class that the average of the world was14.7C at 1013 mb. Some years later I was a aircraft engineer then a flight engineer. These were the standard for engine take off power, this was varied for higher temps and different pressures to determine take off weight for the runway length. Then you show me a graph that say’s it was 14.5C and now it is 15C so for me with all their fudging it has gone up .3C in about 100 years. Terrifying.

      51

  • #
    el gordo

    Talking of moons, Saturn’s Enceladus has hydrogen, a salt water ocean and presumably the potential for primitive life.

    50

  • #
    el gordo

    BoM is certain Tasmania will have above average temperatures this summer.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-26/above-average-temperatures-bom-climate-outlook-nov-jan/9087564

    The organisation is unaware that global cooling has begun.

    63

    • #
      Dennis

      Yes, maybe, but then again they don’t get funded for cooling.

      83

      • #
        el gordo

        As the world cools there will be a need for coal fired power stations and geo-engineering experiments to stop the Thames and Hudson from freezing over. The scientists who believed in AGW and received grant monies for many years, will avoid prosecution by pleading ignorance.

        51

  • #
    robert rosicka

    If only the ABC would do more stories like this they would regain an ounce of respect from me .
    Having been through the system starting in 2008 I can tell you I’m not surprised some consider taking their own life .
    As soon as you make a claim it’s assumed your rorting the system .

    20

  • #
    Forrest Gardener

    Quote: the daytime temperature range is 260 degrees C

    How did the astronauts deal with this?

    30

  • #
    Graeme No.3

    The coming year looks like being an interesting one. The Liberal Party is tearing itself apart and may well be in terminal decline. More importantly there has been colder than usual weather in Europe (and elsewhere) and more and more people are sceptical about the rising hysteria about climate change. And there’s that fellow Trump in the USA.

    There can be no doubt that Turnbull’s “move to the left” has been a failure as it left behind the party** faithful and didn’t attract support from those who would supposedly be attracted. More than a few ‘conservative’ members are opposed to the Global Warming scam but there is little chance of them being in control. While they may agree with Tony Abbott they wish he would stop stirring up the Wets, who then redouble their efforts to ruin the country, and will make it impossible for any return to a conservative stance.

    I have always been a little dismissive of conspiracy theories, thinking that gullibility and a desire to conform are a more likely explanation, but the recent “good news” from the media about the coming economic up-turn in Australia has all the signs of an attempt to get people spending regardless of the big increases in electricity bills and the reduced values of apartment housing and the downturn in that sector. I have no belief in the idea that reducing the discretionary power of the consumer will result in an increase in spending, (except in times of runaway inflation) so the double whammy of higher charges and unemployment will result in a recession in Australia.

    I can see a split coming in the Liberal Party and a stronger conservative grouping with more appeal to many voters. And it shouldn’t be assumed that this will be good news for Shorten and the Labor Party. There are stresses and strains at work there, disguised by the brawling in the Liberals.

    **Damn spelling checker changed ‘the party’ to therapy. Does it know something?

    90

    • #
      Dennis

      Latest news alleges that during 2009 when Turnbull was Opposition Leader he and Pyne approached the union established and funded GetUp political propaganda organisation, also funded by George Soros, for assistance in smearing Abbott MP when they feared he would challenge for the leadership.

      And that is all you need to work out that the “black hand” faction of the Liberal Party is centre-left and aligned with Union Labor.

      90

    • #
      PeterS

      Yes the Liberal Party may well split but I prefer it be eliminated to allow for a new party to be formed. It’s not the first time. As for Shorten, it’s likely he will bask in the sun for a short while after he wins the next election but later the sun will be blocked out and the nation will be in complete darkness. What happens after that depends on how bad our economy ends up. It’s very possible we will be taken over by another country in the name of “saving” us. We as a nation probably will “welcome” it. Don’t put all the blame on Shorten. Turnbull and the rest of his party have a big hand to play in all this.

      50

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        PeterS:

        I blame both major parties for their selection of incompetents. Which of Rudd, Gillard, Abbott or Turnbull would you wish to have saving you if you were in a dangerous situation? The only one any sane person would choose is Abbott, although that wouldn’t guarantee your survival. At least he would make vigorous attempts even at the threat of his own life. The other 3 would organise a press conference to deplore the coming or past tragedy, depending on how quickly they could react to the news.
        And these are supposedly the best the parties have to offer. Well, when you see the names Pyne, Hunt, Shorten, Plibersek, Dastyari, to select from those senior figures still in parliament you can see why the average voter is more likely to hold his or her nose and vote for anyone else.
        As for the Liberal Party it will probably survive for a while after splitting as the Wets/ Blackhands/ Delusion fools (choose your preferred label) are so arrogant and out of touch with the public that they will cling to the wreckage expecting to get back into office soon. The DLP stayed around for years after 1974 until they got a Senator back in (2006?), so I expect some ageing barnacles will cling to the end as the Liberal Party sinks.
        I agree that something new is required and it must break the stranglehold the lawyers have on selection. It is no good saying that they are necessary to make laws when they neither read them before voting nor understand the problems they are bungling.

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          PeterS

          Interesting way you put it. Another way is to say I would welcome Abbott to my home with open arms yet as for the others I would have great fear they would chop my arms off. As for the Liberal Party lingering around for a while after they are decimated at the next election, I suppose you are right. Even a dead carcass as large as an elephant lingers around for some time.

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      OriginalSteve

      Git yer Carbon Kool Aid here…….special on muddy water this week too!

      The APC now gone the way of the ABC….

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-30/ian-verrender-productivity-report-energy-crisis-carbon-tax/9097630

      “The energy crisis fix — a carbon price

      A sober document it may be, as you’d expect from an apolitical body like the Productivity Commission. But the headline on energy pulls no punches.

      “Energy is an appalling mess”, it screams, describing Australia’s electricity markets as being in “a fragile state”.

      Little wonder the Treasurer opted for the diversion tactic: the old “Look over there, it’s a puppy” device.

      The Productivity Commission report contains some blunt assessments on the nature of our energy problems and how to fix them, which indirectly deliver a savage blow to the Coalition’s policies and strategy.

      The primary recommendation is to adopt a carbon price. It isn’t the first time the commission has urged the Government to rethink its carbon emissions strategy. But the looming catastrophe in our energy markets has given the message new urgency.

      Having been a cabinet minister in Tony Abbott’s government — which junked the carbon price and established a multi-billion-dollar handout program in its place — the Treasurer’s reluctance to address issues raised in the report is understandable.”

      But, as the commission points out, it is the very failure to address the problems that have led to the dire situation in which we now find ourselves.

      Inaction and indecision from the Federal Government has killed electricity generation investment. If that’s a strategy to maintain the status quo, to retain coal fired generators, it is doomed to failure.

      As the commission points out, policy failure or fence-sitting is likely to hasten the demise of coal fired electricity generation.

      “Doing nothing on emissions intensity (via price or via some other proxy) is most likely to ensure that the fear of redundancy for coal will become a reality,” it says.”

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    el gordo

    Before the collapse of the subtropical ridge, this from BoM in June 2017. Keep in mind that a strong STR is a global warming signal.

    ‘This winter, that hasn’t happened. Instead of a steady progression of rain-bearing fronts, southern Australia has seen high pressure system after high pressure system, bringing clear, dry days.

    ‘The subtropical ridge has remained firmly down south: it’s currently sitting near Albury when it should be closer to Tamworth. Pressure across much of southern Australia is averaging more than 7 hPa above normal.

    ‘Not only is the subtropical ridge further south than it should be, but it’s stronger as well: the strongest we’ve seen in June since 1944, which was the driest June on record for southern Australia. Almost all of South Australia and Victoria have recorded their highest June average pressure values on record, and some stations—such as Horsham and Mount Gambier—recorded their highest daily pressure values at any time of the year for at least 10 years.

    ‘The strength and location of the ridge means southern Australia has been missing out on the winter westerlies.’

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    toorightmate

    When Turnbull knifed Abbott I thought of Turnbull as an incompetent, lazy fool totally lacking in common sense.
    He has greatly exceeded my expectations.

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      Another Ian

      At that time I had one of those niggling reminders that I should remember something that applied to that knifing.

      Turned out to be the chapter in Kalil Gibran’s “Thoughts and Meditations” called “The silver plated turd”

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      Dennis

      The news that Turnbull and Pyne recruited Labor’s GetUp mob to help them to undermine Abbott in 2009 explains a lot about the relentless negativity that flowed from that year until PM Abbott was replaced in 2015.

      And with George Soros funding GetUp Australia too maybe one of the reasons Christopher Monckton warned Australians to watch PM Abbott’s back.

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        Dennis

        I wonder what forces are being deployed against Donald Trump?

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        • #
          PeterS

          Evil forces of course.

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          Chris in Hervey Bay

          The same forces President JFK wrote about and only now has just appeared in the documents released the other day, Friday.

          Here is what he said on the 15th November 1963, 7 days before he was assassinated on the 22nd.

          ” There is a plot in this country to enslave every man, woman and child. Before I leave this high and noble office, I intend to expose this plot.”

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        PeterS

        Well that does it! Anyone who knows all this and still votes for the LNP at the next election while those fools are still in parliament are themselves fools like them. The country now deserves a term with Shorten to wake them up. It’s now the only way given the Liberal Party are so convinced they want to keep Turnbull as their leader. I dam wish there was a better way but at the moment it appears there isn’t. I could be pleasantly surprised if and when Turnbull is rolled and resigns from the party taking with him all the other deceivers. I won’t hold my breath though.

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          OriginalSteve

          I wince when i hear people say that, like shortonideas is somehow a benign itch to scratch.

          From a Christian perspective too, socialism has never been Christianty’s friend, and should the Yes vote get up, Christians will start facing nasty persecution that will be emboldened under the Godless Left. It will get bad under Champers Turnbull, but not as quickly.

          Dont forget the UN hates Israel and Christianity, and most gummints in Oz have been supporting the UN, ergo….

          I say be careful what you wish for. Our laws and Constitution are founded on Christian principles, which are soon i think to be trashed under socialism and the Godless Left( which was always the plan ). Hope im wrong….

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            PeterS

            I agree with your sentiments. I’m not wishing this upon us; I’m just being a realist. If you have another way out of this mess them please share it with us. Our laws and continuation may be founded on Christian principles, but the people in control today are certainly not. Today socialism in its various camouflaged ways is in control. Deep down I know we as a nation are lost and there is no escape from the disaster that awaits us. Although I’m a realist I never give up on the hope no matter how slim that hope is, things might change for the better, at least for a while.

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              PeterS

              … laws and constitution… (dam that spell checker :-)

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              Sceptical Sam

              If you have another way out of this mess them please share it with us.

              Give the conservative independents control of the Senate; including the Nationals.

              Vote out Labor, vote out greens, vote out Liberal.

              Failing that, get out your pitchforks.

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                PeterS

                Yes without question we must not vote for Labor, Greens or Liberal in the Senate, and only vote for conservatives. But doesn’t that also apply to the other side of parliament? More to the point we should dispense with the Senate as it’s now become a farce. We vote in one side to control one part of parliament and then we vote the opposition to the other side who often block the government. That in my book is very close to the definition of insanity on the part of the voters.

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          OriginalSteve

          I wince when i hear people say that, like shortonideas is somehow a benign itch to scratch.

          From a Christian perspective too, socialism has never been Christianty’s friend, and should the Yes vote get up, Christians will start facing nasty persecution that will be emboldened under the Godless Left. It will get bad under Champers Turnbull, but not as quickly.

          Dont forget the UN hates Israel and Christianity, and most gummints in Oz have been supporting the UN, ergo….

          I say be careful what you wish for. Our laws and Constitution are founded on Christian principles, which are soon i think to be trashed under socialism and the Godless Left( which was always the plan ). Hope im wrong….

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            Christianity/Bible and climate science.

            On the subject of Christianity I will admit to believing in the salvation offered by God via the sacrifice of his only begotten son, Jesus. This in turn means that after the death of the physical body Christians go to be with the Lord for eternity where marvels will be endlessly experienced. But, some Christians will be on earth while Jesus returns. All people on earth will see this happening. Certain events will occur beforehand.

            Yet, as Jesus himself said, no one, except the Father, know the time, day or hour except it will be sudden. The study of this futile study as to when it will occur is known as eschatology…”The branch of theology that is concerned with such final things as death and Last Judgment; Heaven and Hell; the ultimate destiny of humankind.”

            What has this to do with global warming or climate change? Well. as Tony Abbott was trying to point out it is impossible to predict the demise of mankind and the earth. Yet this is what the Green movement and climate scientists are doing. They have taken the place of groups like the Jehovah Witness’ who have now abandoned their habit of forecasting the end date of the earth.

            Just like them, climate doomsdayists will be proved wrong. Jesus said that everything would be “normal”, so to speak, right up to the end. People were wrong when they said Napoleon then Hitler were the anti-Christ or the beast, etc signalling the end times.

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              Rereke Whakaaro

              The nice thing about predictions pertaining to the demise of mankind, is that there are so many to choose from.

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              el gordo

              Millenarian madness will come to an end when the scientists agree that a mini ice age has begun. It’ll be the end of the world as we know it and my timeline, based on paleo history, indicates that the revelation should happen sometime over the next five years.

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      PeterS

      Agree. I never liked Turnbull as a politician given his background and performance all the time prior to replacing Abbott. In fact his track record has always been and still is abysmal. It explains why he almost lost the last election, and will lose the next one by a landslide. It’s a given. We all know Turnbull is a hopeless politician but what about the rest of the party? Why are they so blind not to notice their party will be decimated at the next election as long as the have him as PM? They must replace him soon to give themselves half a chance of winning enough seats to avoid the embarrassment of a catastrophic defeat. They might not still win but at least they will minimise their losses. Then again perhaps they deserve each other – I’ve lost all hope for the LNP as a whole. They have lost the plot and they deserve to be wiped out and made extinct to make room for a new party. This country is heading for disaster as long as we have both major parties on the left side of politics, regardless of how far the left each one of them is.

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      Another Ian

      TRM

      I’ve used this before but, with the latest developments, will repeat it.

      The situation brings to mind a scene towards the end of Len Dighton’s “Bomber” where a pilot is trying to do a copybook spin recovery over Germany – with half the wing shot off.

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      sophocles

      Toorightmate said:

      I thought of Turnbull as an incompetent, lazy fool totally lacking in common sense.
      He has greatly exceeded my expectations.

      Politics everywhere one looks seems to be a field especially reserved for those, or one which collects more than its fair share of them. Perhaps it’s because they can’t hold down a real job?

      We have several circuses currently in play: there’s Catalan vs Spain again or as usual, there’s Germany, with three rings currently circling each other, one of which is known to be feral, there’s the United Kingdom with “Will We Won’t We” Wavering Teresa, there’s the Australian Federal Parliament and the various states re-engineering the Australian electricity supply without an electrical engineer in sight, and then there’s the Americans.

      American politics are, shall we say, interesting. I’ve been reading, well, browsing, some old-ish (last century) Sci-Ams before they go out. It seems the current investigation into Russian meddling in last year’s presidential election is nothing new. There was one in 1948 (Truman vs Dewey). Back then, the Russians were the Soviets and the Soviets were really scary.

      That seems to be consistent. When there’s a “surprise” result which the pollsters all got wrong (which they did in 1948 and again in 2016, not to mention all the other times in the elections between these two examples, so I won’t mention them) then it must be because “a Foreign Power™ meddled.”

      Ah ha.
      Indeed.
      I can see that.
      Sure.

      There’s a Scapegoat lined up already. (“ an arrest is imminent“). Someone must be on Roller Blades (they’re faster than Roller Skates, I hear).

      Yep, There’s nothing so crazy as Politix. To my surprise, the NZ three ring circus got it’s act together. Mind you, there will be sparks and that’s going to be interesting.

      Oh no: This has just caught my eye and it has to be shared:

      October 1898: Mr. Charles F. Brush read a very important paper before the American Association for the Advancement of Science, in which he describes extracting from the atmosphere a gas which is lighter than hydrogen. The new substance has been called “etherion.” Mr. Brush says that the ability of etherion to conduct heat is fully a hundred times as great as that of hydrogen. He also considers that the gas reaches out indefinitely into space.

      Now we know. We also know it’s not a new gas, it’s CO2, the gas anointed by Arrhenius (1895) and ordained by the UNIPCC (1990) and endowed with Truly Magical Propeties (1991) by various and sundry computer models, although it has been found to be heavier, slightly, than hydrogen. Someone had better inform Ned Nikolov and Karl Zeller about this. Here’s the real reason for the warming of the other bodies in the Solar System with atmospheres: it’s not their gravity wells after all but interplanetary CO2 aka “etherion.

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    Graeme No.3

    We often talk about those in the scam as “snouts in the trough” so let me have a little more room too.
    Then there is Europe. There is one of the centres of support for the Climate Change scam with Germany at the forefront. Colder weather will reinforce the opposition to throwing money away and Merkel may not have a stable coalition. The Greens will adhere to her but others will respond to the rising resentment to her policies and refuse to stay on a sinking ship. The end of the Energiewende is coming; if you doubt that try Google with “Energiewende failure”. Even the usual slant cannot keep the opposition showing on the first page and that it isn’t working.

    Added to that is the general economic downturn in southern Europe which is still continuing with rising resentment against the EU. The improvement in the economy and the lower unemployment rate will look a much better idea to the young and lead to clamour for a less rigid Common Market and a reduction in centralised planning. Already there are stirrings in Austria, Holland and Denmark. Greece and Spain are heading for internal turmoil. Nor will the “New Socialism” of Macron help the Left in France as jobs are lost and no benefits appear.
    In Europe the usual ‘solution’ in the past has been a war, but that is unlikely, but a lot of civic unrest and attempts to exert local autonomy are very likely. In Belgium there are 3 languages and the Flemish don’t like the Walloons. There are local movements in France in Brittany, and Languedoc. And there are the Basques and the Catalans who are by no means all in Spain. An economic downturn will reinforce the resentment with Paris.
    So 2018 could see the beginning of the end of AGW.
    The Swiss banks are on standby.

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    Ruairi

    Plant growers should prefer the politicians,
    Who fail to cut more CO2 emissions.

    For, even German Greens it’s undeniable,
    That renewables alone are unreliable.

    Renewables won’t help Australians eke,
    A living from two dollars more a week.

    That cars on open roads behave the same,
    As in a lab, is what the warmists claim.

    To pay electric bills, a last resort,
    For more Australians, is of food go short.

    A Marxist state, the major leftist goal,
    Falls into line with warmist mind-control.

    W.A. was ordered to forbid,
    More solar panel power on a grid.

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    Another Ian

    400 + papers and then this – reminds me of that old song “Shut the door they’re coming in the window: shut the window they’re coming in the door”

    “The István Markó Interview: Possibly the Best Thing You Will Ever Read on Global Warming. Pt 1: The Science”

    “Maybe the biggest of all the lies put out by the global warming scaremongers is that the science is on their side. No it isn’t. And if you’re in any doubt at all you should read this interview with the brilliant scientist István Markó. It tells you all you need to know about the science of global warming.”

    More at

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/10/28/the-istvan-marko-interview-possibly-the-best-thing-you-will-ever-read-on-global-warming-pt-1-the-science/

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    My Poor Country

    UPSIDEDOWN EXPLAINED ….. (“For some reason, people keep posting photos of this rock upside down.”)

    Photographs of the moon taken from different hemispheres.

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    Yeah, yeah, but no taxes, no prohibition laws, no Republicans, Democrats or Socialists. I’ll take the UV.

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    Peter C

    Conditions on the Moon

    Jo’s excellent picture of the moon compares very well with astrophotographs taken with telescopes.
    I liked the photograph parameters; “Shot: f6.5, 215mm zoom, on knee @ 393,617 km.”, particularly the bit about sitting on the lawn, balancing her camera on her knee to keep it steady.

    I was reminded of this article which I read several years ago titled “A Green House Effect on the Moon”
    http://ilovemycarbondioxide.com/pdf/Greenhouse_Effect_on_the_Moon.pdf

    The moon has no atmosphere so an atmospheric greenhouse effect is impossible, however the authors show that the maximum lunar surface temperature is cooler than expected from black body calculations. Also minimum temperature is quite a bit warmer than expected and the average lunar temperature is warmer than expected. These effects on Earth are usually attributed to some sort of blanket effect of the atmosphere. Instead the effect is attributed to heat storage in the lunar soil.

    The moon surface (regolith) has very limited heat storage capacity compared to the oceans on Earth, yet this heat storage effect is ignored in the Stefan Boltzmann calculations which infer that the Earth’s average temperature would be -18C in the absence of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

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      Curious George

      Don’t make fun of an extremely precise flat-Earth radiative model. In fact, it models nicely a spherical rotating Earth with a zero heat capacity and an infinite heat conductivity.

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      Give the credit to Canon.

      I have one of the largest point-n-click “compact” cameras. It made all the decisions and I barely gave it a chance without even bothering to find my proper tripod. SX50 HS. Great for slack photographers.

      I think the Zoom is 24-1200mm or 50X. Amazing bit of equipment (and not even that new).

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      Konrad

      “maximum lunar surface temperature is cooler than expected from black body calculation”
      Why yes. 90 degrees cooler than expected from those (grey body) calculations.
      This was first confirmed from Apollo surface thermometer instruments (remember when that data got “disappeared” from the web at the height of the climate wars?)

      But then came the calibration lab experiments for the DIVINER orbiter instruments. Then the radiometer data from the actual mission. 90C cooler average surface temperature than predicted by the Stefan-Boltzmann equation. Then sceptic “Galloping Camel” at Tallbloke’s Talkshop built a multi layer FEA model of the lunar regolith and matched those empirical results. A model that involved specific heat capacity of powdered basalt, the conductivity of un-weathered sharp edged vacuum insulated basalt grains and of course the vital variable “Time”.

      It turns out that the S-B equation can’t model average surface temperature for solar illumination of the Lunar regolith. Hardly surprising. It’s not constantly illuminated by a quarter power sun, its hemispherical reflectivity is difficult to determine from earth observation, it doesn’t have zero heat capacity and it has low conductivity.

      The type of calculations at the very foundation of the radiative GHE conjecture are exactly the same. They gave an answer was 90C out just for boring Lunar regolith. Imagine trying to use instantaneous (Hint: No “Time”) radiative balance equations to determine solar thermal gain on our ocean planet. Utter madness.

      71% of our planet’s surface is ocean. Translucent to sunlight to 200 m. Opaque after 10 microns to LWIR. Intermittently solar illuminated in a diurnal cycle peaking near 1000 w/m2. Specific heat capacity 4.185 J/G. Poorly conductive, and having a stop-start diurnal convective cycle, with energy loss only from the top 10 microns of 3.5 km average depth.

      Can S-B type calculations determine solar thermal gain at the surface of our ocean planet? Absolutely freaking not. Climatrologists claim 255K as “surface Tav without radiative atmosphere”. All they did is bang 240 w/m2 (average surface solar illumination after 0.3 reflectivity) into the S-B equation with emissivity and absorptivity set to unity. No empirical experiments verifying solar gain in discrete surface material of our planet. No refined CFD modelling based on those experiment results. Did the DIVINER engineers do it that way? Hell no! They used empirical experiment:
      https://i1.wp.com/i58.tinypic.com/71s4tt.jpg

      Net radiative greenhouse effect? Piffle! The simple reason our surface temperature is higher than a “theoretical blackbody” is because the surface of our planet is an extreme short-wave selective surface. So extreme and complicated, that instantaneous radiative flux calculations can never solve for solar thermal gain. Only empirical experiments and CFD modelling based on their results that can solve problems so complex. Where are the empirical experiments or CFD modelling to back the climatologists claims of “255K average surface temperature without radiative atmosphere”?

      Surface Tav for this planet without radiative gases? 312K. (24K higher than our current average). How to get the right answer? Forget Stefan-Boltzmann, use empirical experiment, just like the DIVINER engineers did. Maths can model physics, but maths can also model the non-physical. Empirical experiment can only model physical reality. All of the AGW conjecture has at its foundation the misuse of maths to model the non-physical. You can’t use instantaneous radiative balance equations (S-B, Planck, etc) to determine solar thermal gain in simple Lunar regolyith, let alone our ocean planet’s surface.

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        Peter C

        Thanks Konrad,

        Where are the empirical experiments or CFD modelling to back the climatologists claims of “255K average surface temperature without radiative atmosphere”?

        Apparently there are none!

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    Mark M

    Astrolabe: Shipwreck find ‘earliest navigation tool’

    “It’s a great privilege to find something so rare, something so historically important, something that will be studied by the archaeological community and fills in a gap.”

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41724022

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    john

    PG&E wants ratepayers (not stockholders) to foot the bill for California wildfires started with their equipment.

    http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/26/pge-pushes-for-ratepayers-to-pay-millions-in-california-wildfire-costs/

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    John F. Hultquist

    Nice photo.

    “… NOAA thinks …” Not true!

    “… its in Wisconsin …” There is not even a place at (crossroads) Moon, WI to buy a Moon Pie.

    Try Moon Township, PA — I’ve been there, just outside the airport. On the Orange Belt — the ringed roads in the region; color coded.
    UV is likely greater in nowheresville WI than near the big airport.

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      RAH

      I’ll be passing not far from there in a few hours. At 15:00 EDLST this trucker will be leaving Anderson, IN with a load of Monroe shocks and struts bound for the Advanced Auto Parts Distribution Center in Kutztown, PA. I’ll hit rain as I approach the Washington, PA area then there is a possibility for a “wintery mix” in the higher elevations on the PA Turnpike a little further east. Precipitation of some type, mostly rain, forecast all the way across PA. But I’m thankful that I’m not going any further east. That storm hitting along the coast from NJ up into MA today looks nasty.

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    A side note: images like this provide strong evidence that the moon is, indeed, spherical. Note the increasing definition of the craters the closer they are to the terminator line. Flat-earthers have good rhetoric (basically intellectual sleight-of-hand) but simple, rational observations are much more compelling.

    Same thing happens with ‘mainstream’ climate science: great rhetoric which goes unchallenged on the six o’clock news, but almost all of it is refuted.

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    pat

    27 Oct: Reuters: Wall Street loves electric cars, America loves trucks
    By Paul Lienert and Joseph White
    Wall Street may love the shares of Silicon Valley electric carmaker Tesla Inc, but Americans love big, fuel-thirsty trucks like Ford Motor Co’s bestselling F-Series pickups and are paying ever higher prices to buy them…

    Tesla has ambitions to boost annual sales to 500,000 vehicles a year. But it is wrestling with the sort of production problems that old-line automakers have largely put behind them, and has reported a net loss of $666.7 million through the first six months of 2017. Analysts expect the company to post a third quarter net loss of $380.4 million when it reports results next Wednesday…
    But regulatory and consumer pressures are forcing established automakers to put more electric vehicles in their fleets over the next several years. In a cash-intensive industry, profits from pickups and SUVs may give them a competitive edge…

    Ford said on Thursday that the average price of one of its F-series pickups rose $2,800 to an average $45,400 a truck in the third quarter. Sales of F-series trucks, which range from spartan work trucks to Platinum models with the features – and price tags – of a European luxury sedan, were up nearly 11 percent to 658,636 vehicles for the first nine months of this year…
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/wall-street-loves-electric-cars-america-loves-trucks-054655761–finance.html

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      Dennis

      Australian Acting Prime Minister Turnbull gifted Macquarie Bank Leasing $100 million to market Tesla S EV to fleet buyers in Australia.

      I am not sure if each new customer receives a “green energy” voucher and/or “off peak electricity” voucher that many EV reporters think useful to overcome the electricity supply crisis.

      But it does anger and frustrate me that a once conservative capitalism based political party now practises socialism.

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        Sceptical Sam

        Tesla EVs to fleet buyers? More idiocy by our current Prime Minister, the fool Turnbull. But he was a pretend banker after-all, who is just looking after his crony banker comrades.

        Of course, it’s the standard approach of socialist governments and their socialist Keynesian acolytes to think they can pick winners.

        Foolishly they put good taxpayers’ dollars after bad, chasing a silver bullet for industrial growth and development. Spending other people’s money is in their DNA. Their crony capitalist comrades love it and have developed a very sophisticated strategy to ensure the foolish politicians keep on with the destructive policies. They are users. Bludgers.

        Conversely, commercial success is underpinned by policies that are “no go zones” for the socialists. These include:

        Reduced government regulation;

        Lower taxes, especially lower company taxes;

        Smaller, less intrusive government;

        Open, fair and competitive markets including labour markets;

        Respect for and protection of private property;

        Competitive education systems; and,

        Effective trade training systems.

        Probably the best current example of the abject failure of governments picking winners can be seen in the incompetent Labor Government’s National Broadband Network (NBN); the initial cost of which started out at around $4.7 Billion in 2007. The current estimate is around 49.0 Billion and growing.

        Paradoxically, the NBN’s fibre technology is rapidly being superseded by wireless technology. The NBN will never meet its hurdle rate of return. It will be written down and the taxpayer will be whacked with the cost.

        They never learn. They’re just dumb.

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    pat

    27 Oct: Breitbart: Brexit Boom: Manufacturing Jobs Rise 24 Per Cent, Growth Accelerates
    by Jack Montgomery
    CV-Library research indicates that British manufacturing has seen a 24 per cent increase in advertised vacancies over the last 12 months…

    The news is just the latest in a series of blows to EU loyalists hoping the uncertainty around Britain’s economic relationship with the European Union after Brexit Day in 2019 would damage the economy and make their pre-referendum ‘Project Fear’ predictions appear more credible…In fact, unemployment has fallen to a record low and, according to the latest preliminary figures from the Office for National Statistics, growth strengthened to 0.4 per cent over the last quarter…

    Britain business has enjoyed a whole series of individual success stories over recent weeks as well, most little reported besides Bloomberg’s investment of £1 billion in a new European headquarters in London — contradicting complaints by Michael Bloomberg himself that the public’s vote to Leave the European Union was one of the stupidest things an electorate has ever done.

    Other positive developments over the last few days include Associated British Ports (ABP) purchasing a 50-acre site which will be developed into industrial units capable of employing 1,500 workers, gasket and seals manufacturer J. A. Harrison announcing a new production facility to supply global aerospace firms, and Yorkshire-based steelmaker William Cook winning a contract to supply the Paris Metro in France, among many others.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/10/27/brexit-boom-manufacturing-jobs-rise-24-per-cent-growth-accelerates/

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      Dennis

      I understand that the British plan involves closer economic relations with Commonwealth of Nation countries such as Australia and New Zealand, all of the once British Commonwealth of Nations members, earlier British Empire.

      And this has angered the Gnomes of EU Government for obvious reasons, not least being their own EU exports and the preference Britain would enjoy within the Commonwealth of Nations.

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      Been watching a vid about how EU regulations have caused Europe’s important cod industry to become very centralised. No more drying on the rocks or salting in barrels. Corporations only, please. (You understand, not many mom-and-pop ops are equipped to keep Eurocrats in the lunch menus to which they have become accustomed.)

      The funniest EU regulation scam would have to be the one where Danish oil producers exploited a subsidy-loophole which made it profitable for them to massacre countless sand eels for processing to oil. Not as ruinous as chipping, nitrogenating, shipping and incinerating American forests for English power plants, but definitely funny.

      Funny if you’re not a sand eel, that is.

      30

  • #
    Robber

    Electricity Market Price Trends. Has the pressure applied by Turnbull/Frydenberg had some impact in reducing wholesale electricity prices, or are we simply seeing a transition from winter to spring?
    Using Victorian data from AEMO in $/MWhr:
    2017
    Oct 73.20
    Sep 79.43
    Aug 102.57
    Jul 117.38
    Jun 98.50
    May 107.95
    Apr 108.20
    Mar 90.63 (pre Hazelwood closure)
    Feb 86.05 (some brief load shedding in SA)
    Jan 62.04
    2016
    Dec 29.90
    Nov 36.07
    Oct 33.18
    Sep 41.02 (SA state wide power outage)
    Aug 43.24
    Jul 64.64
    Jun 92.77
    May 54.24
    Apr 45.88
    Mar 45.89
    Feb 35.42
    Jan 46.95
    It seems harder to obtain similar data on wholesale gas prices for Victoria. The AER does publish quarterly prices, but AEMO only appears to show data for the last few days.
    2017
    Q1 9.11 $/Gigaloule
    Q2 9.55
    Q3 8.57
    Last 4 days of Oct 6.60
    Have more supplies been made available to the domestic sector versus exports, or has demand for gas for electricity generation declined, reducing price pressures?

    30

    • #
      RickWill

      You need to also look at demand to get a handle on these numbers. October last year was the lowest cost month.

      I can guarantee you will see some big numbers in late November as the air-conditioners crank up.

      20

  • #
    pat

    27 Oct: GWPF: from UK Times: John Constable: Energy Customers Foot The Bill For Failed Climate Policy
    (John Constable is energy editor of the Global Warming Policy Forum)
    Subsidies to renewable electricity in the UK cost £5 billion a year at present and will rise to more than £8 billion a year by 2020, all drawn from the bills of domestic and business consumers. One third of this hits households directly through their electricity bills — about 20 per cent of the bill in fact — while the other two thirds, paid in the first instance by businesses, is passed on to households in the general cost of living.

    Government has obfuscated these facts, and since 2014 has published no price impacts. When costs could not be hidden, the government has claimed that climate policy made them unavoidable. Now, in an authoritative and excoriating report commissioned by the government, Dieter Helm, professor of energy policy at Oxford University, has torn away the fig leaves covering the government’s nakedness. Policy interventions, he tells us, are so numerous and badly designed that they have resulted in costs well in excess of what is needed to meet emissions targets. These subsidies will cost a hair-raising £100 billion by 2030. “Much more decarbonisation could have been achieved for less,” Professor Helm drily observes.

    Sadly, as the study emphasises, much of this wasteful policy cannot be cancelled, due to “contractual and other legal commitments”. In other words, government has given the rent-seekers firm entitlements that the courts must defend. Did the civil servants explain these liabilities to the responsible ministers, and if so why was the consumer interest neglected, and why were such bad deals struck, again and again and again?

    Because, as Professor Helm does not hesitate to tell us: “Government has got into the business of ‘picking winners’. Unfortunately, losers are good at picking governments, and inevitably — as in most such picking-winners strategies — the results end up being vulnerable to lobbying, to the general detriment of household and industrial customers.”…READ ON
    https://www.thegwpf.com/energy-customers-foot-the-bill-for-failed-climate-policy/

    30

  • #
    pat

    seems AAP/Osborne are backing “unreliables”:

    29 Oct: Yahoo7: AAP: Paul Osborne: Palaszczuk banks on backing Qld to win
    The energy debate is also a key factor.
    A re-elected Palaszczuk government has promised to push ahead with a 50 per cent renewable energy target by 2030 and build more hydro and solar power generation.
    The Liberal National Party says the state needs a new power station in the north and the best option is a coal-fired plant, supported by the federal government’s Northern Australia Infrastructure Facility…
    However, no serious commercial proposals have come forward to build and operate such a plant, in a region witnessing a boom in wind, solar and other renewables.

    Voters will be asked to choose between Labor’s “responsible and effective” renewables or the LNP’s argument against such “unreliable and expensive” power…
    https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/37654379/palaszczuk-banks-on-backing-qld-to-win/

    27 Oct: UK Independent: Germany set to pay customers for electricity usage as renewable energy generation creates huge power surplus
    Output from wind turbines forecast to hit record on Sunday
    by Jesper Starn
    Wind generation is forecast to climb to a record on Sunday, creating more output than needed and driving electricity prices below zero, broker data compiled by Bloomberg show…

    Negative prices mean that producers must either shut down power stations to reduce supply or pay consumers to take the electricity off the grid.
    Wind output is forecast to peak at 39,190 megawatts at 7am on Sunday, equivalent to the output of about 40 nuclear reactors and enough to meet more than half of Germany’s total demand…

    The cost of electricity from offshore wind farms, once one of the most expensive forms of green energy, is expected to slide by 71 percent over the next two decades, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance…

    German wind generation reached a record 38,370 megawatts on 18 March.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/germany-grids-paying-electricity-customers-renewable-energy-power-surplus-wind-solar-generation-a8022576.html

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    • #
      Wayne Job

      In Germany the power companies that own the real power stations should all shut down for a month for maintenance. This would show the populace the truth and a real revolution would begin, the government could do nothing but fold and a new paradigm of common sense would ensue.

      40

  • #
    Another Ian

    “Ever wonder what the cosmic ray dose rate is at various altitudes and how it changes with time?
    This product documents at 13% increase in cosmic ray exposure since 2015
    source [http://www.spaceweather.com/]”

    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2017/10/27/w-o-o-d-27-october-2017/#comment-88014

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  • #
    el gordo

    On the dark side of the moon (not seen by humans before 1959) there have been reports of alien structures and huge tunnels underground. NASA says they are old volcanic tubes, nothing to see here, move along.

    20

  • #
    pat

    SOUNDS FAMILIAR…READ ALL…

    28 Oct: Toronto Sun: Lorrie Goldstein: You call this a plan? Liberal electricity blunders costing us billions of dollars
    After doubling residential electricity rates over a decade, Wynne’s “Fair Hydro Plan” temporarily drops them by 25% — with the biggest impact coming in 2018 — just in time for the June, 2018 election.
    Then rates begin to rise again, slowly at first, because the Fair Hydro Plan artificially holds increases to inflation from 2018 to 2021, before prices start increasing again at annual rates that drove them to the highest levels in Canada under the Liberals…

    Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk says Wynne’s Fair Hydro Plan will cost Ontarians $39.4 billion, including $4 billion over 30 years in unnecessary interest payments so the Liberals can keep the cost off the province’s books, by transferring the debt to Ontario Power Generation…READ ALL
    http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/you-call-this-a-plan-liberal-electricity-blunders-costing-us-billions-of-dollars

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  • #

    I see that the Queensland Premier, Annastacia Palaszczuk, has called for a State election.

    I guess we’ll hear a lot of their, umm, plan to go 50% renewable by 2030, as part of the buzzwords, ‘Energy Policy’, between now and the election date.

    No matter what she says, or what he Ministers and candidates say, there is, wait for it, ZERO chance that will happen. They will be hard pressed to make 10%. You’ll hear spin upon spin from the palace chook, making Shane Warne look like an amateur, but there is no way known they will mention that coal fired power (nearly all of it owned by the State Government) is currently supplying between 110 and 120% of what the State is actually consuming, and, no matter what they say, there is no chance that they can get coal fired power from 120% back to lower than 50%, without destroying two States, Qld and NSW, and that excess power being generated in Qld is all that’s keeping NSW afloat.

    This last week saw 6 of those large Units in NSW off line, totalling 3700MW, and that’s a pretty big amount of power to bee off the grid.

    The data and analysis for this week is at the following link.

    Australian Base Load Electrical Power – Week Ending 28th October 2017

    Tony.

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    • #
      Joe

      You are correct Tony, but I think it is fair to say that pretty much anything you hear from anyone around election time is going to be hype, spin and lies. And as you say, it is not going to happen, so not a lot to worry about at least, unlike SA. At least up there in Qld your lefty State Gov has built you some nice more modern generation assets both coal fired and gas and not a whole lot in the way of non dispatchables. Having the extra capacity to export it down south is a good thing for your economy. I think the price of your Gladstone power is about to go up shortly when the 16 yr coal supply contract is up. They get some sort of mates rate deal but that won’t get renewed and it will be set by world parity pricing. As you mentioned before, they can keep generation costs way down when they have their own mine mouth supply or some sort of sweet contract.

      20

      • #
        Joe

        … that was meant to be Stanwell with the 16 yr contract. I think Gladstone who buy their coal from a third party already pay closer to parity pricing.

        10

  • #
    pat

    26 Oct: Breitbart: Vatican Invites Governor Jerry Brown to Give Keynote Address on ‘Climate Change’
    by Thomas D. Williams, Ph.D.
    The Nov. 2-4 Vatican workshop titled “Health of People, Health of Planet and our Responsibility: Climate Change, Air Pollution and Health” will attempt to link up the health risks posed by air pollution with anthropogenic climate change driven by carbon emissions…
    The November conference will address both pollution and climate change in an attempt to link the two very different issues…

    much more at the link:

    Pontifical Academy of Sciences: Workshop on HEALTH OF PEOPLE, HEALTH OF PLANET AND OUR RESPONSIBILITY CLIMATE CHANGE, AIR POLLUTION AND HEALTH 2-4 November 2017
    PROGRAMME
    Climate Change Extremes, Tipping Points and Health Risks Prof. Hans Joachim Schellnhuber
    Sustainable Development Goals and Health Prof. Jeffrey Sachs Director of the Earth Institute, Columbia University
    Environmental and Climate Justice Prof. Fonna Forman Co-Director, Center for Global Justice, University of California at San Diego

    Energy Access for the Poor: Scalable Solution Prof. Dan Kammen Distinguished Professor of Energy at the University of California, Berkeley; Climate Science Envoy for the U.S. State Department (NOT MENTIONED, “FORMER” ENVOY, NOT CURRENT)…

    VII. Call to Action from Global Leaders
    Keynote Speaker: Honorable Jerry Brown Governor of California
    Congressman Scott Peters US House of Representatives (NOT MENTIONED, DEMOCRAT)…

    VIII. Call to Action from Civic Society
    Prof. Richard Horton Editor-in-Chief of Lancet
    Caring For Creation: The Evangelical’s Guide to Climate Change & a Healthy Environment Rev. Mitchell C. Hescox President/CEO; Evangelical Environmental Network
    Prof. Jeremy Farrar CEO, Wellcome Trust
    Prof. Edward Maibach University Professor, George Mason University
    Prof. Lize Van Susteren Psychiatrist, Advisor, Harvard Center for Health and Global Environment

    PARTICIPANTS…READ ON
    http://www.pas.va/content/dam/accademia/booklet/booklet_health.pdf

    26 Oct: Breitbart: Gov. Jerry Brown Tells BBC: Trump ‘at War’ With America, I Will ‘Stabilize the Ship of State’
    by Thomas D. Williams, Ph.D.
    “The president is working to delegitimize the very notion of climate change,” Brown told Jim Naughtie of the BBC in a program that aired Tuesday, while the position of California is to go “against the policies of President Trump.”
    “I hope the rest of the world does their part in providing a forceful opposition,” he said…

    Regarding Trump’s withdrawal of America from Paris climate accord, Brown said that California will “go to court and block his efforts.”…

    “So, we are taking action in California. We are linking up with other similar-minded people all over the world. And we are pushing forward, even as Trump blusters, he cannot command the tides to not come in.”
    “Climate change is occurring. Global warming is occurring. California is beginning to burn up. The political will is not strong enough but it’s moving in the right direction,” he said.
    The governor said that America is currently “passing through its dark night of the soul” but would eventually emerge from it.
    “America is strong, very strong, but it’s being torn apart now and the pied piper-in-chief is Donald Trump. We’re in a very dangerous precipice,” he said…
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/10/26/gov-jerry-brown-tells-bbc-trump-at-war-with-america-i-will-stabilize-the-ship-of-state/

    10

  • #
    Mark M

    “only 5 percent of the world’s population has ever flown”

    http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4346

    20

  • #
    pat

    27 Oct: PublicPool: Sanders statement on Q3 econ numbers
    (Public Pool is an automated feed of White House press pool reports)
    Here’s a just-released statement from White House press secretary Sarah Sanders on the Commerce Department’s Q3 stats on economic growth and other measures:
    “Despite the damage from this year’s hurricane season, the U.S. economy grew at 3 percent for the second quarter in a row. With unemployment at a 16-year low, the stock market at new highs and economic confidence soaring, the U.S. economy is surging under this President’s leadership. America can continue this momentum if Congress adopts our framework for major tax cuts and other key agenda items that will allow Americans to keep more of their money, make our businesses more competitive, and build an economy that works better for everyone.” – Sarah Sanders, White House Press Secretary

    27 Oct: Post & Courier: Economy shows resilience with 2nd straight solid quarter, bolstering Trump
    By Martin Crutsinger Associated Press
    Powered by businesses and consumers, the U.S. economy grew at a solid 3 annual pace last quarter despite two devastating hurricanes — evidence of economic durability and all but assuring that the Federal Reserve will resume raising interest rates late this year.
    Friday’s figures from the government marked the first time in three years that the economy has expanded at a 3 percent or more annual rate — historically, a normal pace for a healthy economy — for two straight quarters.

    More than eight years since the Great Recession officially ended, the economy is still posting consistent gains — in the job market, in business investment, in consumer spending and corporate earnings. Unemployment is at a 16-year low. Companies are restocking. An improving global economy is boosting U.S. exports. Stock prices are rising in tandem with company profits…

    The economy managed to expand at a healthy rate last quarter despite the damage inflicted by Hurricanes Harvey and Irma, which many economists think shaved at least one-half of 1 percentage point off annual growth in the July-September period…
    Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross asserted that Friday’s GDP report “proves that President Trump’s bold agenda is steadily overcoming the dismal economy inherited from the previous administration. … And as the president’s tax cut plan is implemented our entire economy will continue to come roaring back.”

    The administration contends that Trump’s proposals for tax cuts, deregulation and tougher enforcement of trade laws will achieve annual growth exceeding 3 percent in the coming years…
    http://www.postandcourier.com/business/us-economy-grew-at-rate-in-q-meeting-trump-s/article_ffc89bfc-bb1d-11e7-9cc6-7f7d10fbc3f2.html

    27 Oct: Bloomberg: U.S. Growth at Above-Forecast 3% on Consumers and Businesses

    27 Oct: Western Journalism: As a candidate, President Donald Trump repeatedly said he wanted to achieve growth of 3 percent or higher.

    20

  • #
    David Maddison

    Australia’s total federal, state and local government debt just hit $752 billion.

    Watch the real time display of Australia’s debt at:

    http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

    It’s frightening.

    42

  • #
    RickWill

    I have been looking for updates on the global radiation balance. The CERES data now covers 17 years and yielding some interesting perspectives.

    This link shows the OLR:
    https://neo.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/view.php?datasetId=CERES_LWFLUX_M
    It is interesting that certain parts of atmosphere above the tropical oceans radiates less than 200W/m^2. This highlights problems with the MODTRAN software as it seems impossible to get OLR flux that low from any surface at 300K. Even with pouring rain and low cloud MODTRAN produces 282W/m^2:
    http://climatemodels.uchicago.edu/modtran/modtran.html

    This work from Roy Spencer using CERES data is a year old but it provides some interesting analysis on CO2 sensitivity:
    http://www.drroyspencer.com/2016/10/what-do-16-years-of-ceres-data-tell-us-about-global-climate-sensitivity/

    If that was the true feedback operating in the climate system it would be only (3.8/4.69=) 0.8 deg. C of climate sensitivity for doubled CO2 in the atmosphere(!)

    This 2014 analysis makes similar conclusion but CO2 sensitivity even lower:
    https://friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/CERES/CERES_Climate_Sensitivity.pdf

    The TCR is 0.38 ± 0.54 °C using hadCRUT3, and 0.74 ± 0.54 °C using hadCRTU4 data. These values are much less than the multi- model mean estimate of 1.8 °C for TCR given in Table 9.5 of the AR5. The climate model results do not agree with the satellite and surface data and should not be used to set public policies.

    Of course there is a lot of analysis involved in determining the OLR from the data measured by satellites. That aside, the CERES data, highlights the difficulty in reducing the determination of any global heat ballance to a single equation using black body radiation.

    This link shows the net radiation:
    https://neo.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/view.php?datasetId=CERES_NETFLUX_M
    It highlights the significance of the tropical oceans as the global heat collectors. Also note that the Sahara is a heat sink for the global energy balance despite covering low latitudes; not surprising if given some thought.

    40

    • #
      Peter C

      Thanks Rick.

      Information available to some scientists for years gradually leaks into the public domain.

      I have been looking for an update on these measurements of the OLR spectrum taken many years ago by the Nimbus satellite and published by Barrett.
      https://www.researchgate.net/figure/221909392_fig15_Fig-16-Emission-spectra-of-the-Earth-taken-by-the-Nimbus-4-satellite-Spectrum-a-is

      I assume that the spectra were taken from a cloud free sky. What I would like to see is the spectrum from a high level cloud surface. I suspect that it might not show the dips attributed to H2O and CO2. So for I have not found that information.

      10

      • #
        RickWill

        I assume that the spectra were taken from a cloud free sky. What I would like to see is the spectrum from a high level cloud surface. I suspect that it might not show the dips attributed to H2O and CO2. So for I have not found that information.

        The Nimbus data would be clear skies. It is interesting to observe that CO2 over the poles actually provides a spike in the spectra so it results in a net heat loss rather than a gain there (CO2 acts as a cooling gas over the poles). In fact the poles are one location where there is downward heat flux from the atmosphere. Interestingly MODTRAN still shows a dip at the CO2 band. So it cannot reproduce the conditions for the poles.

        To get less than 200W/m^2 from MODTRAN the water vapour scale has to be set at 40. That forces the relative humidity to 100% all the way to 18km up. Halving CO2 at that level of water vapour increases MODTRAN heat flux by 0.8W/m^2. So this indicates CO2 forcing over the tropical oceans to be much lower than the commonly used value of 3.8W/m^2.

        Another point is that any forcing over land really makes little difference to the overall energy balance because there is no energy storage. The Sahara is a heat sink so actually results in contributing to global cooling. It acts like a radiator but far less effective than the polar oceans in releasing heat from the system.

        It would be interesting to see how well the coupled models replicate the measured OLR over the globe.

        20

  • #
    David Maddison

    Ridiculous plan to split California into three states.

    I wonder if the idea is to make it harder for conservative presidents to get elected?

    http://abc7.com/politics/plan-to-divide-california-into-3-parts-clears-first-hurdle/2575034/?sf126844617=1

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  • #
    robert rosicka

    Just noticed another big solar farm proposed for my area , this one is big , 120 megawatts, 360,000 panels on an east west tracking system and they are proposing the siting on a 245 hectare farm close to the Hume hwy near Glenrowan.
    The other big solar project is on hold after receiving many objections to the planning permit which is apparently costing the consortium quite a few dollars in delays and mediation.
    Even though this one is over the hill from me might lodge a complaint about it scaring off the regent honeyeaters or something else just to be a pain in the butt .

    70

    • #
      David Maddison

      https://wangarattachronicle.com.au/2017/10/27/170m-solar-farm/

      They claim the usual lie that 120MW will service 40,000 homes but I guess they think the sun shines as though it was noon 24 hrs a day which is the only way that could be true.

      There should be a law prohibiting intermittent generators claiming the nameplate as their real capacity when it is much worse. The capacity should be derated further to account for the non-dispatchability of the power, like to zero.

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    • #

      Just noticed another big solar farm proposed for my area , this one is big , 120 megawatts, 360,000 panels on an east west tracking system and they are proposing the siting on a 245 hectare farm close to the Hume hwy near Glenrowan.

      Big in area, big in cost, comparatively small when it comes to actual power generation.

      120MW Nameplate, and using the average generation figures, that means around a true Nameplate around 24MW.

      It will probably deliver around 210GWH of power across the full year, if all goes well that is, you know, the same amount of power delivered by Bayswater in, umm, 4 days and 9 hours.

      Tony.

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      • #
        robert rosicka

        Agree totally .

        30

      • #
        bobl

        245 Ha can deliver around 12.5MW on any reliable basis if there is 100 hours of storage available. Now bearing in mind that that land no longer will sink any CO2 – is there any point. Its not a solar farm, its a subsidy farm.

        10

    • #
      Wayne Job

      When it comes to the big picture solar farms they are about as useful as tits on a bull.

      81

  • #
    Graeme No.3

    O/T even for WE Unthreaded but reporter Matthew Abraham in the Sunday Mail has an article about SA – “Welcome to the weird world of noddy land”. In it he expands on the use of ‘nodders’ by the Premier Jay Weatherill. Such appear close behind him at every TV announcement etc. either nodding happily or with serious expressions as required. They are supposedly reinforcing his gravitas.

    Older readers who have read P.G. Wodehouse will recognise the term from several of his short stories about Hollywood, where nodders were ranked lower than Yes Men in the heirachy of flunkies that all ignorant, gullible, incompetent, but arogant and dictatorial studio heads felt necessary for their self importance. There is a grave danger that SA will now be known as Noddyland by those interstate taxpayers who prop it up financially.

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    • #

      The term ‘Noddies’ is an old one in fact, and I can remember first hearing about it being used back in the early to mid 70s.

      It was mainly done for TV interviews for the longer style current affairs programs.

      The interviewing ‘journalist’ would turn up with just the one camera guy, and they would do the whole interview with just the one camera, naturally.

      Because the focus was on the person being interviewed, the interview would proceed with that person always in front of the camera, while the journalist asked the questions, and sometimes there would be a wide shot, so you could see the journo asking the question.

      At the end of the interview, they would both stay seated in place, while the cameraman moved to an opposite position where he could ‘shoot’ the journo from that opposite position, asking one or two of the questions actually covered already, and to take a couple or three of images of the journo nodding seriously.

      Then it was just a matter of taking all the camera footage back to the studio, where the images and then the sound was spliced together to give what seemed like a constant interview, seeing the journo ask the occasional question, and also nod seriously to one of the replies in the correct place.

      At the end of the actual original interview, the cameraman actually would use that word, saying it was time to do the ‘noddies’.

      We had a TV cameraman (for NBN3, when it was just a local Newcastle TV station) playing for the cricket club I was in, and he would tell us all about all the ‘fake’ stuff that was done on occasions like this.

      Nowadays, it’s endemic in virtually all political interviews, and sometimes I’m amazed at how many people are packed so tightly around the main subject.

      Tony.

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    • #
      robert rosicka

      Seen it before but when you look at any politician doing a speech anywhere there is always a nodder in the background.

      50

  • #
    el gordo

    Found this at Notrickszone, German scientist says mini ice age has begun.

    * Northern hemisphere (NH) snow cover in May 2017 was greater than at any time in the past 32 years.

    ▪ In May 2017 sea ice area compared to a year earlier increased during a month of May like never before, since satellite measurement began in 1979.

    ▪ The gigantic ice sheet on Greenland was also at record level in May 2017, from the beginning of September 2016 to the end of 2017 mass balance of Greenland ice at a surplus of 700 million tonnes and has never been so high since recording began!

    71

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Too soon to call it I think, although I note that David Evans (among others) predicted a downturn in advance. This is a good deal harder than predicting a warmer earth then scrambling to adjust the records later (as is usual in AGW circles).

      31

    • #
      philthegeek

      Hmmmmm……

      Big hurricane season in the Atlantic.

      Cooler temps in Northern Europe??

      Less and thinner ice in the Arctic.

      Wonder how the whole heat transfer thing via the Gulf Stream is working??

      22

  • #
    Another Ian

    “There has been so much talk and false information about Hydro Electric Power Stations, pump storage and System battery storage that I felt it was time to put the record straight.

    Some of the most incorrect and misleading information is from self-appointed experts who have made all sorts of ridiculous statements, as well as from some politicians who either live in fairy land or are deliberately lying. You decide.”

    More at

    http://blackjay.net/?p=534

    50

    • #
      diogenese2

      Very clear and unanswerable Ian and therefore unwelcome. When decision makers and their operatives are tasked with an objective (the replacement of fossil fuels) which is Physically, Logistically, economically, socially and therefore politically impossible their critical faculties evaporate and they are prey to any ideas that superficially might provide the needed miracle. Thus is born the second great deceit of the Global Warming Narrative, the first being that the narrative is proven science and the third (the latest) being that every adverse event that occurs, anywhere and at any time, is caused (by implication) by use of fossil fuels. This will be the terminal deceit as its clearly untenable.
      Or so I hope though I fear, in the words of Samuel Johnson “Of the uncertainties of our present state, the most dreadful and alarming is the uncertain continuance of reason”.

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  • #
    Ted O'Brien.

    It’ll be upside down in a fortnight.

    20

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    By the way, Jo, that’s one of the best shots of the moon I’ve seen that didn’t need a big expensive telescope. You’re not only a very good blogger but your photography skills are right up there with the best.

    I saved the picture. I hope you don’t mind.

    RH

    20

    • #
      David Maddison

      BTW, do you know amateurs are able to image Pluto with only 6″ scopes these days?

      Amazing!

      10

      • #
        Roy Hoguee

        I know very little about optics generally but I once read up on making your own telescope with the intent of trying it myself. From the description of the labor intensive job of grinding your own mirror I soon concluded that I had a better chance of wasting my money than coming up with something useful.

        So question: What’s better about today’s 6″ scope than those of, say 20 or more years ago that makes viewing Pluto possible?

        20

        • #
          David Maddison

          I’m not saying it is desirable or even easy to image Pluto with a six inch but it is possible and there are competitions to see who can do it. The smallest size suggested is 8 inch but 12 inch is better. I believe the main difference is low light image sensors as it cannot be seen with the naked eye as it is too faint.

          10

  • #
    David Maddison

    The marvels of left wing “green” town planning. Apparently in some of the new suburbs of Sydney the streets are so narrow that garbage trucks can’t fit down them so residents have to roll their wheelie bins to adjacent streets where the trucks can fit down. I guess if a garbage truck can’t fit then neither can a fire truck.

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    Robber

    Countdown to Nov 21-23. I don’t know how AEMO makes these predictions, but their data dashboard medium term outlook for SA shows a reserve shortfall of 290 MW for Nov 21-23 versus demand of 2740 MW. Any hiccup with generation and the lights could go out. It gets worse on January 16-17 with a reserve shortfall of 350 MW versus demand 3140 MW. Hope those Musk batteries are charged up. Oh wait, that’s only 120 MW for an hour.
    Similar story for Victoria with Nov 21 reserve shortfall of 793 MW versus demand of 9350 MW. And Feb 6 shortfall of 940 MW.

    The Victoria Minimum Reserve Level (MRL) is assessed with 940MW of maximum net import into Victoria.
    The South Australia MRL is assessed with 0 MW of maximum net import into South Australia.

    Low Reserve Condition (LRC)
    - When the medium term capacity reserve available in a region is forecast to be less than the medium term capacity reserve standard for that region.
    Lack of reserve level 1 (LOR1) – When the medium term capacity reserves available in a region is forecast to be less than the sum of the largest and the second largest generation losses due to a credible contingency event in that region.
    Lack of reserve level 2 (LOR2) – When the medium term capacity reserves available in a region is forecast to be less than the largest generation loss due to a credible contingency event in that region.
    Lack of reserve level 3 (LOR3) – When involuntary load shedding is forecast due to supply shortage.

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    Another Ian

    “Virtue signals”

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2017/10/virtue-signals.html#comments

    LED traffic lights don’t melt the snow off

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    AndrewWA

    Rottnest Island Solar Farm

    Wow only $7.3 MIllion for a a 600kw supply for a $225kpa saving.

    A simple payback of only 32 years – if it lasts that long.

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      Robber

      What a pathetic interview and Sixty Minutes story that was. No questioning about the increased costs associated the the big battery and the unreliability and higher costs of intermittent wind/solar generators.

      70

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        PeterS

        Also how long the battery will provide power for SA after they lose the interconnect to Victoria once again.

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      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        Elon was making and faking it up as he went! You could see that never in his life had he met such a dopey lot of suckers! Beyond all previous experience!

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      pat

      David Maddison -

      didn’t see the program, but heard about this HIGHLY DECEPTIVE bit. the CAGW & “UNRELIABLES” propaganda never ends:

      When Hayes said people were opting not to use electricity at all to save money, Mr Musk replied: “Wow. Really? I didn’t realise it was that expensive ***TO GO THE FOSSIL FUEL ROUTE.
      “I mean Australia has so many natural resources, electricity should be cheap.”…
      However, Mr Musk said Australia needed to do more.
      “It’s a definition that if it’s not renewable, it’s going to run out at some point.
      “And we will have the choice of the collapse of civilisation and into the dark ages we go or we find something renewable.”…

      ***NO DOUBT HAYES DIDN’T INFORM HIM ABOUT THE PART PLAYED BY THE “UNRELIABLES”, AND CAGW POLICIES IN GENERAL, IN CREATING THE ENERGY MESS WE’RE IN. OF COURSE, MUSK KNOWS ANYWAY.

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        Chad

        No, actually Musk didnt say..”I DIDNT REALISE IT WAS THAT EXPENSIVE TO GO THE FOSSIL FUEL ROUTE”…
        What he actually sad was..”…I DIDNT REALISE IT WAS THAT EXPENSIVE,..EVEN GOING THE FOSSIL FUEL ROUTE”..
        ..inplying that he knew SA was largely RE powered.
        Slightly distorted reporting from News.com .
        Musk was visibly shocked by the cost of power and its impact on people
        See the full prog here..
        https://youtu.be/5g8DD01B89g

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    Ian Cooper

    Earlier in this thread some ex-pat Northern Hemispherians were commenting on getting used to Orion doing a handstand. At least in the southern sky we have Hercules, Cygnus, Pegasus & Andromeda in the right orientation, so it’s not all topsy-turvy on the south side of the dividing line! On top of that, at my latitude of 40 South we have 6 stars of the 1st Magnitude that are circumpolar (i.e. they never set so are visible all night, and every night that it is clear!) At the corresponding northern latitude they have NO 1st Mag. circumpolar stars!

    I wouldn’t swap our view of the southern Milky Way where the centre of our Galaxy passes over our zenith compared to the northern view where it scrapes along the southern horizon low down in the murk! The Clouds of Magellan are our constant companion & are a treasure trove of deep-sky wonders. Even the Great Andromeda Galaxy doesn’t compare visually or through an average ‘scope in comparison.

    If you are really longing for Orion to be upright once more but can’t afford the airfare or time, find a comfortable place on the ground and lie down with your feet facing due south. Put a small pillow behind your neck and tilt your head to look backwards. Immediately all is as you would remember it, but without a horizon along the bottom of the view. Enjoy!

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      Annie

      :) I wasn’t complaining! It was just that after many years of star-gazing in the NH, my favourite winter sight being good old Orion, well, his appearance DownUnder is strange!
      The SH skies are beautiful to behold where we live but the view used to be rotten in Melbourne…too much light pollution. The best skies are in the outback but it’s a long time since I managed that. I remember the excitement when I first saw the Magellanic clouds and the Southern Cross properly, not to mention the Milky Way. It was when we went camping with our whole family to Alice Springs and we were sitting around the campfire at Glendambo.

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        Annie

        We watched Halley’s Comet through the haze and light pollution in Melbourne in 1986.
        BTW…short ‘a’ in Halley’s, not the long one as pronounced by so many tv reporters at the time. Presumably basing their pronunciation on Bill Haley (long ‘a’) and his Comets!!!

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        • #

          As I recall …

          Halley’s Comet.

          Rising before dark I venture out,
          Climbing the moonlit hill
          Beyond the house,
          My feet make no sound
          Crushing the damp grass.

          As the comet, fiery tailed,
          Follows its timeless course
          Through the meteor-belt,
          I maneuver myself
          Through a barb-wire fence.

          As transmitting stars, light years apart,
          Send static signals across your rushing path,
          I walk among the staring cows,
          Motionless in groups as though
          Enacting a Nativity scenario.

          Glittering planets, diamond sharp,
          Litter the vast vault of night.
          To the south-east I think I see you,
          A faint smudge above the cow shed,
          As pale dawn lights up the eastern sky.

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            Annie

            I like that :)

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            Peter C

            Thanks Beth,

            Your poetic description is a lot like my experience.

            I took my wife and and daughter (aged 3.5 weeks) and mother in law in the car. M in L made some sandwiches and a thermos of coffee. We left the house in Melbourne about 0345 and travelled up the Hume Hwy for about an hour until I thought we were sufficiently far from the city lights then turned off the hwy onto a country road. then stopped. I got everyone through the barbed wire fence and we admired Halleys comet for about 20 minutes until it started to get slightly light. At this point I realised that we had climbed in to a herd of silent cows who were quietly exhaling steamy breath .

            The memory is still quite fresh. It was quite a special moment.

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              I was on the Mornington Peninsular, Peter. The night was
              surprisingly warm for April, sky a bit fuzzy, tho’ no city lights,
              just cows. )

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              Late in March 1970, as a young RAAF electrical tradesman with 1OCU, we had a one week ADEX, that entailed a lot of night flying and three days of 3AM starts to get the Canberra’s all preflighted and ready for the pilots at 4AM engine start, and being an ADEX, it was all done with torchlight as the Base was blacked out, so we all had pretty good night vision.

              It was the oddest thing to see all the tradesman walk out of the flight office after signing off on their servicings to lay flat on the tarmac looking skywards at Comet Bennett, stationary in the night sky with its tail out behind it to approximately 15 to 18 degrees, the head facing the direction of the rising Sun in the east, and covering so much of the sky. Nearly everyone thought that comets just flashed across the sky, so they were pretty much dumbfounded that it just sat there seemingly not moving, only noticing the movement by a change in position with each passing day.

              Just silence as they all looked at the night sky. Everyone looked at it all the time, even the Pilots and Navs as they walked out to ‘strap in’. It was like a magnet, everyone checking to see if it was still there.

              Biggest Comet I ever saw. Waited with bated breath for Halleys Comet, but that was a letdown, as Bennett was always so vivid in my memory.

              Tony.

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            Annie

            Years later some of our offspring and some of their friends came up here from Melbourne to view a display of meteors. It was perishing cold and we took warm wrappings and blankets up to the dam and lay on the damside to view the sky without neck strain. We saw quite a few meteors and one absolute stunner which had streaks of colour in its trail. We eventually had to retreat to the house for hot drinks and some warmth.
            No cattle came near; they stayed elsewhere. Our current boys are very nosy so I think they’d join in!
            When we put new fencing in we ban barbed-wire…horrible stuff that can hurt the animals. Hot wire to deter them is a better bet…well, while there is any electricity anyway.

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      philthegeek

      Can remember seeing this live. :)

      Not my photo though. :(

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    Ian Cooper

    Annie, I wasn’t inferring that you were complaining, just that you were rightly commenting on the quirks of crossing the ‘big circle!’

    I won’t forget my first view of Scorpius dragging it’s tail along the southern horizon from the LAX Hilton of all places. I struck an unusual night when a westerly wind blew all of the smog from around the airport back into the city, leaving us with surprisingly clear skies. Normal transmission resumed by sunrise though.

    I still much prefer the Scorpion’s tail to be straddling my zenith, even if it doesn’t do my neck any good to look at it for long!

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    David Maddison

    Isn’t SA’s Big Battery meant to be finished by now?

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    pat

    all those “unreliables” and still emissions are increasing! note “carbon pollution” is the new meme:

    29 Oct: The Herald, Scotland: Revealed: Scotland’s worst corporate carbon polluters
    Exclusive by Rob Edwards
    SCOTLAND’S densely populated central belt is awash with millions of tonnes of carbon dioxide spewed out by the country’s worst climate polluters, the Sunday Herald can reveal.
    The latest pollution inventory from the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency (Sepa) shows that 12 of the country’s top 20 polluters are in the central belt, with emissions totalling 7.7m tonnes. Five of the plants at Grangemouth and Mossmorran in Fife are run by three of the world’s biggest fossil fuel companies: Ineos, ExxonMobil and Shell…

    Sepa’s inventory also reveals that discharges from the plants have been increasing in recent years, despite international efforts to reduce them to avoid catastrophic climate change.
    The companies have been condemned as “dinosaurs” by environmentalists, who are demanding that they cut their pollution…
    Friends of the Earth Scotland criticised companies for failing to cut climate pollution…

    The Scottish Green Party called on companies to improve their record. “These dinosaurs are firmly stuck in the fossil age,” said the party’s environment spokesperson, Mark Ruskell MSP…
    The international climate campaign group, 350.org, demanded that public sector pension funds withdrew their investments from fossil fuel firms…
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15626151.Revealed__Scotland___s_worst_corporate_carbon_polluters/

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      Robber

      If only all these “Greenies” would set the example and stop using all fossil fuels immediately, the world would definitely be a better place.

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    pat

    thinking it through:

    29 Oct: UK Express: Wind farms would need to ‘cover whole of Scotland’ to power Britain’s electric vehicles
    SCOTLAND would need to be entirely covered by wind farms in order to power all of Britain’s electric cars, according to a leading academic
    By Paula Murray
    Jack Ponton, emeritus professor of engineering at Edinburgh University, said another 16,000 turbines would be required in order to replace petrol and diesel cars with electric vehicles.
    First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has pledged to phase out the internal combustion engine by 2032 – eight years ahead of the rest of the UK.
    But Prof Ponton said that, even if the issues of power generation and charging points were sorted out, the National Grid could simply not cope with the increased demand…
    “Technically, it is an excellent idea. But the problem starts when you begin to think, ‘Where are you going to get the energy to run them?’…

    “If you want to do this with wind turbines, you are talking about 16,000 more wind turbines, four times as many as we have at the moment, and I’ve estimated that would occupy some 90,000 square kilometres, which is approximately the size of Scotland.”
    The academic – a member of Scientific Alliance Scotland, a group which promotes open-minded debate on issues such as climate change – believes the plan is “unworkable”…

    Prof Ponton also shot down the idea of providing charging points along the length of the A9, described by transport minister Humza Yousaf as “Scotland’s first electric highway”.
    He said: “Motoring in the Highlands cannot be based on average calculations because it doesn’t work like that.
    “You get a lot of people in the tourist season but not many for the rest of the year.
    “Typically, if you wanted to put a full charge on your car, you’d stop at the service station for half-an-hour rather than 10 minutes.
    “There’s certainly enough places to put up charging points but you’d get a lot of queues, which would not do the tourist business any good, and with that you are going to get charger rage incidents.
    “And what happens if you run out of charge? How’s that going to work? It has simply not been thought out.”…

    Last night a spokesman for Transport Scotland said: “This vision is underpinned by our recently published ‘Switched on Scotland Action Plan’ and builds on the range of incentives we already provide to local authorities, businesses and individuals…
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/872470/Electric-vehicles-Wind-farms-Scotland-Nicola-Sturgeon-diesel-Britain

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    Another Ian

    Plenty to ponder on here.

    “Interesting item here on genetic sex specific differences.”

    Link at

    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2017/10/27/w-o-o-d-27-october-2017/#comment-88053

    Looks like the current transgender model is like the global warming one – if in doubt leave it out

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    robert rosicka

    Looks interesting for a possible blackout on the 30th .

    Market Notice 59713
    AEMO ELECTRICITY MARKET NOTICE

    AEMO declares a Forecast LOR1 condition under clause 4.8.4(b) of the National Electricity Rules for the NSW region for the following period[s]:

    From 1500 hrs to 1600 hrs on 30/10/2017.
    The contingency capacity reserve required is 1400 MW.
    The minimum reserve available is 1344 MW.

    Manager NEM Real Time Operations

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    el gordo

    South East Regional Cooling Signal

    ‘Apart from Friday, when a top of 26 degrees is expected by the Bureau of Meteorology for the city, most days this week will feel on the cool side. Tuesday’s forecast is for 21 degrees after an overnight low of 13 degrees.

    “The air mass that will linger over the south-east [of Australia] is extremely cold for this time of year,” Mr Cronje said.

    SMH

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    pat

    comment in moderation since 12.32pm re:

    29 Oct: UK Express: Wind farms would need to ‘cover whole of Scotland’ to power Britain’s electric vehicles

    SURPRISING TO SEE THIS ON PUBLIC RADIO INTERNATIONAL:

    28 Oct: PRI “Living on Earth”: As global carbon dioxide levels climb, plants are becoming better at photosynthesis
    by Adam Wernick & Savannah Christiansen
    “There’s more photosynthesis going on than in the past, and there’s more biomass,” the study’s lead author, Ralph Keeling, told the Washington Post (LINK). Keeling is a professor of geochemistry at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography and program director of the Scripps CO2 Program.
    “The accumulation of biomass is important because it’s carbon that otherwise would have been in the air that got taken out and is slowing down the growth rate of atmospheric carbon dioxide,” Keeling says.
    The study supports a long-standing theory among scientists that higher concentrations of CO2 would allow vegetation to use water more efficiently, leading to increased levels of photosynthesis…

    The researchers note that the current plentiful level of carbon-12 also allows plants to adjust their stomates — the holes in their leaves that control carbon intake — to minimize water loss during photosynthesis.
    While the implications of the new finding are still unclear, it’s possible that, as carbon dioxide levels rise, plants will have a tool to allow for more growth, even when water is scarce.
    (This article is based on a report (LINK) that aired on PRI’s Living on Earth with Steve Curwood)
    https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-28/global-carbon-dioxide-levels-climb-plants-are-becoming-better-photosynthesis

    CAN’T RECALL SEEING THIS BEFORE. STRANGE IT LISTS “0″ COMMENTS – WAS IT WELL-HIDDEN?

    14 Sept: WaPo: Some good news about global warming for once — plants are speeding up their use of carbon
    By Chelsea Harvey
    A study (LINK), just out Monday in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, supports a long-standing theory that some plants become more efficient at using water under higher carbon dioxide concentrations. This is a boon for the plant, allowing for more efficient photosynthesis, the chemical process by which plants make food for themselves, which requires both carbon dioxide and water.

    Better photosynthesis helps plants grow bigger — which in turn allows them to store more carbon away. That means if plants around the world continue to adjust to rising carbon dioxide concentrations, increasing their biomass on a global scale, they could actually help offset some of our human carbon emissions by removing more carbon dioxide from the air…

    But some scientists believe that vegetation will eventually hit a sweet spot in terms of efficiency, and can’t continue adapting indefinitely…
    0 COMMENTS
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/09/14/some-good-news-about-global-warming-for-once-plants-are-speeding-up-their-use-of-carbon/?utm_term=.e039e068c70e

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    David Maddison

    “The Vicious Snake” narrated by President Donald J. Trump.

    https://youtu.be/yeJ-iv3MOTo

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    TdeF

    “CO2 levels pumped to new high by ‘record’ increase: WMO”

    It says there has been a 40 per cent increase “radiative forcing” — the warming effect on the climate — from long-lived greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, including a 2.5 per cent rise in 2016 alone. CO2 accounted for most of it.

    “CO2 remains in the atmosphere for hundreds of years, and in the oceans for even longer,” said WMO secretary-general Petteri Taalas. “The laws of physics mean we face a much hotter, more extreme climate in the future.”

    It’s nice to see someone from the Meteorological Organization quote the laws of physics. Too bad this is all rubbish talk without a shred of physics.

    - “CO2 remains in the atmosphere for hundreds of years, and in the oceans for even longer,” deserves some sort of award for nonsense.

    The exchange rate (half life) for CO2 between atmosphere and oceans is established at 14 years, not hundreds of years
    It has nowhere to go. CO2 is a natural gas like Oxygen. All life on earth needs CO2 and outputs CO2.

    The ocean has 50x as much CO2 as the atmosphere, so how can it stay in the ocean ‘for even longer’?

    The only better statement was Tim Flannery’s story that droughts would get longer and more frequent, which is self contradictory.

    The laws of Physics and Physical Chemistry include Henry’s Law which distribute CO2 between water and air based on temperature, but you cannot expect the head of the WMO to know that. You cannot change one side only of an equilibrium but this is all about funding and fame.

    Besides, why isn’t the temperature higher? Even Michael Mann is predicting a drop due to La Nina and ‘natural variation’ and he is right for all the wrong reasons. The infamous Mann is going to ride this all the way down, with temperatures going down due to Global Warming.

    This beatup reads like CO2 was a deadly industrial poison which needed to be destroyed like Sarin gas. The WMO has no shame.

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    pat

    for Chad reply 52.2.1 re Elon Musk quote in news.com.au article.

    thanx for the video. however, the writer, who has only been with News Corp since last year, should have known what he wrote was not correct. and it is his quote which was read out on 2GB this morning, which means it’s another case of Fake News getting around.
    from the writer’s LinkedIn:

    LinkedIn: James MacSmith: Digital Editor, News Corp Australia, December 2016 – present
    from Summary: Over a decade’s worth of experience creating content for several of Australia’s most respected and recognisable media companies in Fairfax Media, SBS and Australian Associated Press and the South Sydney Football Club.

    a little over the top at DM?

    30 Oct: Daily Mail: Nic White: We’ll work harder’: Elon Musk brought to tears by how much Australians pay for power and admits he was ‘disheartened’ when his world’s biggest battery was mockingly

    ***’I didn’t realise it was that expensive. Australia has so many natural resources that ***even if you go the fossil fuel route, electricity should be very cheap.’
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5028887/Elon-Musk-shocked-Australians-pay-power.html

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      pat

      curious. RenewEconomy also had the correct quote:

      Could Tesla have bigger plans for Australia than the Big Battery …
      reneweconomy.com.au/could-tesla-have-bigger-plans-for-australia-than-the-big-batte…
      8 hours ago – I didn’t realise it was that expensive,” he said. “Australia has so many natural resources, I mean ***even if you go the fossil fuel route, electricity…

      but they have completely changed the article and the quote is amongst the text that has been removed.
      also, the CleanTechnica linked story no longer has the Fake Tesla Marketing Dept response to Steve_s in the comments:

      30 Oct: RenewEconomy: Could Tesla have bigger plans for Australia than the Big Battery?
      A comment posted – and then hastily deleted – by Tesla’s “Marketing Dept” under a news story over the weekend has caused a flutter of speculation that the US EV and battery maker could have plans to develop a car manufacturing plant on Australian shores.
      But it turns out to be a hoax.

      The CleanTechnica story (LINK), which was about Tesla’s west German division, prompted a comment from reader “Steve_S”, who noted that the EV maker should be keeping an eye on Australia’s automotive market, after the closure of the nation’s last major car factory – the Holden plant in north Adelaide – earlier this month…

      PIC: excerpts from the comments at the CleanTechnica webpage.

      “The account referred in the recent RenewEconomy article is not an official Tesla account and should not have been reported as such,” a Tesla spokesman said by email.
      As a result, we have amended the story to reflect that, and we apologise to readers.
      http://reneweconomy.com.au/could-tesla-have-bigger-plans-for-australia-than-the-big-battery-50369/

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      Chad

      I got the impression Musk was genuinely surprised at the cost issue.which surprised me and makes me think he is also unaware of the wider problems caused by introducing too much RE into a marginal grid system., .
      He thought he was going to be the hero and solve all SAs power problems with a BFB
      Maybe now he will take the trouble to learn more……., but im not holding my breath !

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    pat

    more on the WMO beat-up. more “CARBON POLLUTION” propaganda:

    30 Oct: Bloomberg: Jess Shankleman: Carbon Pollution Touched 800,000 Year Record in 2016, WMO Says
    Report will feed debate at annual UN global warming talks
    Carbon dioxide levels surged to their highest level in at least 800,000 years because of pollution caused by humans and a strong El Nino event, according to the World Meteorological Organization…

    The report will feed discussion at the annual United Nations-sponsored global warming conference starting in Bonn on Nov. 6.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-30/carbon-pollution-touched-800-000-year-record-in-2016-wmo-says

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      TdeF

      Even if CO2 was a major contributor to warming the planet, which is isn’t, its effects are self limiting with concentration and the WMO knows this. So is the WMO trying to take over the alarmist role of the IPCC? The IPCC is the evil child or the WMO, their successful attempt to enter the UN by making climate a world government matter. Of course to do this they had to make two strong arguments.

      Firstly was the world was going to end because of fast Climate Changes caused by mankind.
      Secondly that governments, working together through committees could change Climates.

      This has worked very well for the 1988 IPCC, but the WMO people must be feeling a little left out. So the announcements of even more disastrous CO2 change caused by humans. The news that CO2 changes, sea levels change slowly and naturally is not news but the idea that the world is going to end tomorrow brings fame and funding.

      Please send money to the World Meteorological Organization. Those people at the Climate Change group are getting it all.

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        TdeF

        Then don’t they love El Nino and La Nina. Ying and Yang. With these two unpredictable patterns the weather carpetbaggers can explain anything, even if the tacit explanation is that both are natural, not man made and dwarf any underlying CO2 driven changes. The absurdity of using these natural events to explain why you cannot see their computer model predicted changes is lost on some.

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    pat

    Dana Nuccitelli has about a dozen “CARBON POLLUTIONS” in this DECEPTIVE piece, if you include one from another of his articles, linked below this one, on the unbelievable Yale study claiming Americans want a carbon tax:

    30 Oct: Guardian: Dana Nuccitelli: New data gives hope for meeting the Paris climate targets
    Global carbon pollution appears to be close to peaking
    Over the past half-century, growth in the global economy and carbon pollution have been tied together. When the global economy has been strong, we’ve consumed more energy, which has translated into burning more fossil fuels and releasing more carbon pollution…
    The global economy has continued to grow, while data from the EU Joint Research Centre shows carbon pollution has held fairly steady…

    GRAPHIC: Carbon Pollution vs. GDP Growth
    CAPTION: Annual global carbon dioxide and gross domestic product growth. Data from the EU Joint Research Centre and World Bank. Illustration: Dana Nuccitelli

    China is becoming a global climate leader
    China’s shift away from coal to clean energy has been largely responsible for this decoupling…

    Coal simply can no longer compete with cheaper, cleaner sources of energy, and the next American president can quickly reverse many of the Trump administration’s anti-climate orders…
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/oct/30/new-data-gives-hope-for-meeting-the-paris-climate-targets

    Americans want a tax on carbon pollution, but how to get one?
    Guardian – 23 Oct 2017
    by Dana Nuccitelli

    MSM IS MIND-NUMBING.

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    • #
      Dave in the States

      Americans want a tax on carbon pollution, but how to get one?

      What Americans? I don’t know any. Americans are against taxes generally.

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    Dave in the States

    Been getting a bit cold here in the western US. The days are still pleasant, being for the most part in the 60′s (Fahrenheit). The nights are cold though. It’s been down in the 20′s with a bit of ice on the ponds by morning for most of the last six weeks. Temps were slightly above average through late summer, but about mid Sept things changed to below average.

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    Richard C (NZ)

    Has it occurred to anyone here that the IPCC’s “2 degree limit” has already been exceeded for decades by a large part of the planet, namely, the Tropics and well into the Extratropics in both hemispheres?.

    Let me explain. Global mean surface temperature is effectively a mean of 2 hemispheres but the mean does NOT give the Tropics profile. The mean, which the “limit” applies to, does not exist anywhere. It is heavily skewed by the Northern Hemisphere profile so is not representative of the SH but one could think of the mean as representing 2 latitudinal bands around about 45S and 45N (nominally, certainly not exactly).

    The mean in each case is between hot (Tropics) and cold (Poles). Therefore, if we work in absolute terms, we start with the pre-industrial mean of 13.8C (from Paleo guy Scortese) and add 2 degrees to give 15.8C or 288.95K.

    All we have to do then is go to the NOAA/ESRL website where they have an intercomparison tool to access the non-CO2 forced and onservation calibrated model of the troposphere – NCEP/CFSR.

    The tool returns 2m-T in Kelvin, among other things.

    Web-based Reanalysis Intercomparison Tool: Monthly/Seasonal Time Series
    https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/cgi-bin/data/testdap/timeseries.pl

    Turns out that using a 12 mth running mean a latitudinal band between 36.18S and 33N has exceeded the “2 degrees limit” over the entire satellite era and probably all of the 1970s too, at least.

    36.18S – 33N 2m-T NCEP/CFSR
    https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/ncl_YOPUF9jqO.tmpqq.png

    Relative to NZ, 36.18S is between Wellsford and Whangarei in the North Island north of Auckland.There is a large drop after 36.18 that puts the SH profile below the limit, hence the reason the blue line is well above the limit rather than touching it (but I don’t know why).

    The “2 degrees limit” has to be the most brain-dead political statement ever contrived and those who swear by it have not thought it through.

    Those advocating a “1.5 degree limit” are out of their minds.

    Spread the joy.

    Cheers,

    Richard

    10