JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


Handbooks

The Skeptics Handbook

Think it has been debunked? See here.

The Skeptics Handbook II

Climate Money Paper


Advertising

micropace


GoldNerds

The nerds have the numbers on precious metals investments on the ASX



Archives

Books

Weekend Unthreaded

For all the other stuff…

VN:F [1.9.22_1171]
Rating: 9.1/10 (29 votes cast)
Weekend Unthreaded, 9.1 out of 10 based on 29 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/yd2flolf

177 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Let’s have a laugh….

    Think Bureau of Malliable Data-Ology

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8IKyaFjWUE

    From Fast Forward…think Fakari Rugs….

    He he….

    50

    • #
      Geoff Sherrington

      Malleable please. Geoff

      40

      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        Steve suffers from Errant Vowel Syndrome. This is a condition that has only recently been identified and studied. In fact it has only been recently studied in the last three or four minutes. Treatment of the condition, in extreme cases, can require surgical removal of all vowels. For example:

        Lt’s hv lgh….

        Thnk Br f Mllbl Dt-lgy

        https://m.ytb.cm/wtch?v=Z8IKyFjW

        Frm Fst Frwrd…thnk Fkr Rgs….

        H h….

        There, isn’t that better?

        51

        • #
          sophocles

          Rereke said:

          Steve suffers from Errant Vowel Syndrome.

          … and the pedantic suffer from Irritable Vowel Syndrome.
          Beware of Verbal Diarrhoea … :-)

          60

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          Actually, I suffer from auto-correct, which has now been shutdown.

          After spending 15 mins wading through my phones settings, I found the setting and happily switched it off.

          I am getting slowly sick of smart phones….much prefer by bullet proof Nokia 3315 simple phone. I fired it up yesterday to retrieve an old phone number, I love the simplicity of operation and when I’m finished with it usually throw the old phone onto the desk in the office…try doing that with the new male handbag ( aka a smart phone )…..

          70

        • #
          Ted O'Brien.

          Perhaps he has Apple’s predicative text! I still haven’t looked for how to turn it off.
          Now, how did that errant a get there?

          10

  • #
    Mark M

    Australia is now behind Zimbabwe in reliable, baseload power development.

    http://www.biznews.com/briefs/2015/07/24/china-to-build-600-mw-coal-fired-power-plant-in-zimbabwe/

    Turnbull can’t build a coal-powered station that even Zimbabwe can. Back to hunting-gatering in Australia.
    ~ ~ ~
    An initial look at the Australian electricity grid data

    http://euanmearns.com/an-initial-look-at-the-australian-electricity-grid-data/

    130

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Rhodesia is in a bad way, Marxist Mugabe has see to that….

      We have had a succession of closet Marxists, the most recent being Turncoat….. Shortonideas is a red dagger….

      80

    • #
      Robber

      An excellent analysis of the Australian grid data and the constraints that are emerging by Roger Andrews at Energy Matters website as referenced by Mark M at #2.

      40

    • #
      PeterS

      If we do not change path soon we will see China building coal fired power stations here too – when we beg for them to support us after the collapse.

      50

  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    BOM has messed my Sunday up , wanted to go bush for the start of the trout season but the forecast was 95% chance of rain so stayed home and got stuck into some Co2 powered liquid amber instead .

    41

  • #
    • #
      Robert Rosicka

      What really happened was they ran out of wind and tried to burn coal in it because they used coal in the early days .

      60

  • #
    Peter C

    Does A Light Bulb Facing a Mirror get Heated by Its Own Reflection?

    This question has bothered me for a few years now. Alan Siddons of Principia Scientific International came up with the analogy while attempting to debunk the Green House Effect. The analogy is that the Earth is warmed partly by its own infrared radiations reflected back by greenhouse gases!

    I can’t for the moment find the original reference.

    Anthony Watts was so incensed that he made his own experiment and concluded that Siddons was wrong.

    I made a response which was deleted by the moderator.
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/05/27/new-wuwt-tv-segment-slaying-the-slayers-with-watts/#comment-131878

    I did try this experiment in several ways using light bulbs and mirrors and I was unable to show any warming of the light bulb.

    None the less I am still bothered that my experiments might not have been sensitive enough. In particular I wonder about the situation in which the light bulb is entirely enveloped by the reflector. Maybe in my experiment the heat escaped by another way. Heat has a way of escaping by what ever means possible.

    Several people have responded to my previous comments, saying that a thermos flask is a possible experimental device and in fact the existence of the thermos flask proves the proposition. I agree partly. The thermos is a good experimental device. There are at least two problems:
    1. separating conductive cooling from radiative cooling,
    2. the flask is silvered on two sides, hence there is a confusion between emissivity by the inner surface and reflection from the outer surface. The issue here is that the outer surface is supposed to limit heat loss from the inner surface by reflection. But if no heat gets out from the inner surface due to the very low emissivity of the inner surface then the effect of reflection is minimal.

    I have demonstrated by previous experiments that the thermos flask is a sensitive and reliable device for measuring heat loss. My technique is to fill the flask with hot water, cap the flask and then measure the temperature of the water over time. The flasks that I previously used have gone out of use, but I have one left.

    My experimental proposal is as follows:

    1. Test the flask in its original condition (with vacuum). Heat loss is low and I will assign that as 50% residual conduction and 50% residual radiation, (a and b) where both a and b are small and may be neglected.

    2. destroy the vacuum by cutting off the vacuum nipple and test the heat loss again. This time the heat loss is much greater and is mostly due to conduction. Hence this is a measure of conductive heat loss.

    3. cut the flask apart ( I have recently found a means which might do this) and desilver the inner part. Then glue the flask back together and the heat loss is now due to conduction and any increase due to emissivity. The outer layer still reflects almost all the radiation. If the result is similar to condition 2 the reflection is acting as barrier to heat loss. This is a test of the light bulb hypothesis.

    4. desilver the outer part. Now the outer envelope acts like the Green House. Glass is close to black body. Hence the outer envelop absorbs the IR for the inner side and sends half back and emits half out wards.

    5. remove the outer glass and replace with a radiative translucent barrier to contain the air (ie polythene film). This is a crude test of the Green House Hypothesis.

    Any comments on this reasoning?

    42

    • #
      Geoff Sherrington

      Before embarking on your thermos quest, first answer this logically: What colour does a chameleon turn when placed on a mirror? Geoff

      60

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Peter

      Deep space surrounding Earth is about 1.6 C degrees above absolute zero.

      Earth’s surface is about 293 C degrees above absolute zero during the day where I live and 283 at night currently.

      Incident UV energy that warms the surface during the day starts to move from the surface down the thermal gradient as soon as the Sun disappears.

      CO2 cannot be involved in back radiation; i.e. CO2 doesn’t pump energy back from the sky to Earth.

      The only effect that seems possible is with water in the form of clouds. Phase transformations are involved and may delay return of energy to space, but that energy would be held at cloud level not radiated back to Earth.

      High virtue energy leaving the Sun begins to degrade the moment it enters Earth’s atmosphere and is seriously weak when it leaves the surface as IR.

      It’s not going to turn around and reheat the surface twice, that’s the Sun’s job when it arrives the next day.

      KK

      60

      • #
        FarmerDoug2

        KK,
        If there is nothing there (space) what is 1.6c (K?).
        Doug

        20

        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Hi Doug

          I used to think that deep space was at absolute zero but recent reading indicates that there is some effect from radiation and whatever traveling across the solar system. I haven’t gone in to this too deeply but was reprimanded on this point and can underatnd that there is some low level energy effect even in space.

          Will may be able to elaborate on this?

          KK

          20

          • #
            Analitik

            It’s the echo of the Big Bang
            https://www.space.com/20330-cosmic-microwave-background-explained-infographic.html

            Penzias and Wilson won a Nobel prize for accidentally discovering this even though George Gamow had postulated its existence years before in his argument with Fred Hoyle on the Big Bang vs the Steady State theories for our universe.

            40

          • #
            Will Janoschka

            Analitik September 4, 2017
            “It’s the echo of the Big Bang”

            Electromagnetically\radiometrically it is the ‘noise’ of the Big bang! The same 1/f power spectrum (from step function) you get from hooking up the battery! The power in frequency 1/400,000,000 years is all we can ever know of this universe!
            Your accumulation of such power, when allowed, is called “conservation of energy!”
            All the best!-will-

            12

            • #
              Analitik

              So I used layman’s terminology…

              An echo is a bounce of an original sound wave while the cosmic background radiation is the smearing out of the univeral EM radiation when its energy density fell below the transformation value to matter, decoupling it (aside from localised concentrations) micro moments after the Big Bang expanded the universe’s size beyond the order of a Planck Length.

              But people can’t really relate to the effect of an expanding universe and stretching out of the wavelength of the pervading radiation so an echo (which provides a second experience of an initial pressure wave front, decreased in intensity by the 4 times the square of the distance between the listener and the echo surface) is a convenient analog.

              30

              • #
                KinkyKeith

                There are times when I’ve felt like saying the same thing but couldn’t find the words.

                KK

                10

              • #
                Will Janoschka

                Analitik September 5, 2017

                “So I used layman’s terminology…”

                Good! But some academics have private terminology to SCAM all!
                Folk to folk communication\talk is preferred!

                “An echo is a bounce of an original sound wave while the cosmic background radiation is the smearing out of the universal EM radiation density fell below the transformation value to matter”

                Good GOD You intentionally conflate a Pressure wave, requiring ‘mass’ for power transfer; with EMR that requires ‘no-mass’ for power transfer. You add:

                “radiation density fell below the transformation value to matter.”

                Perhaps it did, or perhaps matter density fell and mass gravitational attraction became dominant. Both are relativistic\nuclear concepts hardly layman’s terminology.
                All the best!-will-

                00

      • #
        Will Janoschka

        Keith,
        I attempted to respond to Peter C 9-3-17 post

        “Does A Light Bulb Facing a Mirror get Heated by Its Own Reflection?”
        That answer must be no never!
        You OTOH, seem to have some interest in ‘why not’. EMR power transfer is never a part of thermodynamic heat(power) transfer between masses proportional to some linear differential temperature of said masses this power transfer requires (gas\contact) mass with defined specific heat and thermal conductivity. EMR power transfer OTOH is not in any way “heat” and never “requires mass” in the power transfer path! Spontaneous EMR power is one way proportion to a ‘difference in radiance’ in each direction and at each wavelength.
        Back to your post:

        “Deep space surrounding Earth is about 1.6 C degrees above absolute zero.”

        The thermometric temperature of space (with little or no mass) remains undefined and meaningless. There is no thermodynamic heat transfer to\from space.

        The radiometric temperature of space is highly variable with respect to direction and wavelength. the average is again meaningless,as in no direction exists a blackbody EMR emitter\absorber.

        “Earth’s surface is about 293 C degrees above absolute zero during the day where I live and 283 at night currently”

        °C is a scale, not a thermometric temperature but referenced to 101.3 kPa water\ice point zero°C . Average 19.85°C is 293K, with no degrees. A delta
        temperature in °C is called kelvins (no upper case). Absolute zero temperature (whatever that may mean) remains an asymptote with no scale but instead logarithmic; (power (exponent)series of some unknown ilk). All attempts at identifying such power series have failed.
        All the best!-will-

        30

    • #
      sophocles

      Peter C:
      Riddle me this:

      Why do we fit double glazed windows to our buildings?

      20

    • #
      Reed Coray

      Peter, this is off the top of my head so I may change my mind. To me it’s obvious that light reflected by a mirror contains energy. If this were not so, electrical generators that concentrate sunlight to a small volume by employing an array of mirrors wouldn’t work. Also, although I’ve never tried it, place a mirror on the ground and place a magnifying glass in the path of the reflected sunlight oriented perpendicular to the direction of the reflected light. I’m pretty sure the focused light would “burn” wood in the same manner that focused direct sunlight will burn wood. There will be some difference because reflection won’t be perfect, but I believe sufficient energy will be reflected to burn wood. In this sense, the light in the mirror that is reflected back towards the incandescent filament will be absorbed by the filament. As to whether or not this can be interpreted as “heated by its own reflection” is a different matter. Let’s assume an infinite planar mirror. The mirror (a) blocks the electromagnetic radiation from all objects on the “back side” of the mirror from reaching the filament, and (b) provides a second path for the electromagnetic radiation to reach the filament from objects on the same side of the mirror as the filament. I can see the total electromagnetic energy incident on the filament both increasing and decreasing in the presence of the mirror. What will determine the sign of the change will in part be determined by the temperature and nature of objects that are “blocked” relative the temperature and nature of the objects that now via electromagnetic radiation can reach the filament via two paths.

      In any event, I think the temperature rise of the filament would be small. For example, remove the mirror and place a second identical light at the virtual image the mirror creates. Turn off both lights and measure the temperatures of both filaments. Now turn on one and only one of the lights. Again measure the temperatures of both filaments. My intuition tells me the temperature of the “off filament” will rise, but only by a small amount–maybe even too small to be detectable. When both lights are turned on, the temperatures of both filaments will measurably increase, but then I suspect conduction and convection will tend to keep both filaments near the temperature they would be if turned on in isolation.

      Like I said, just my initial thoughts.

      40

      • #
        Will Janoschka

        Peter, this is off the top of my head so I may change my mind. To me it’s obvious that light reflected by a mirror contains energy.

        EMR at any wavelength\frequency is time dependent so has no ‘energy’ but can have a flux, power transfer in the direction of lower radiance at each wavelength and in each direction. The only reflection power transfer can only be in a direction of lower ‘radiance’, else such EMR power transfer must be reversed.
        To demonstrate consider a two cell pr2 flashlight. Point it about at night; push the button and illuminate all with lower ‘radiance’ At noon such will still illuminate all at lower radiance at the push of the button!
        Point that flashlight at the Sun, the pr2 tungsten filament may or may not vaporize from the Sun’ concentrated flux to the ‘lower radiance filament’.
        While still Sun-ward pointing, press button for 5 seconds. With the illumination of the Sun plus additional battery power the pr2 filament must quickly evaporate, perhaps illuminating the Sun for a fraction of a microsecond!

        42

    • #
      Peter C

      Every one has a better understanding of Radiative Thermodynamics than me.

      Hopefully I can report the results and then we can ague about the theory.

      20

      • #
        Will Janoschka

        Please try to formally ‘define’ what you may mean by ‘reflection’,and under what conditions such may possibly occur. You seem to assume that everyone understands ‘reflection’! Almost no-one understands! Even you seem to think it is some sort of ‘heat’ transfer, because like ‘reflection’ everyone understands what ‘heat is’! Try to formally define what the concept of ‘heat’ may possibly mean\not-mean to yourself let alone anyone else. Is EMR (power flux) ever ‘heat’? How can that be?
        All the best!-will-

        12

        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Will

          I understand the need for precision on naming things but in some cases where we are discussing highly complex issues I have mixed up terms to simplify concepts.

          For example the temperature of space.

          I suspect that if you could measure it there would be no temperature in space.

          The background temperature of 1.6 k would only occur if there was solid material present to absorb EMR carrying energy.

          Is Earth continually leaking energy to space as IR?

          Did this energy originally come from the Sun as UV?

          At what temperature does CO2 actually absorb and emit energy.

          Questions related to our understanding of the CO2 thing.

          :-)

          KK

          21

          • #
            Will Janoschka

            Keith,
            My opinion for your consideration.

            “Is Earth continually leaking energy to space as IR?”

            The ‘Earth’s atmosphere’ is continuously emitting flux (power) at each frequency and each direction of lower radiance at that frequency, best it can. My drinking buddy, Gus Kirchhoff is correct. I prefer Miller to his swill. This is the ‘only’ way that Earth may reduce excess planetary sensible heat as measured as ‘planetary temperature’.

            “Did this energy originally come from the Sun as UV?”

            That is a large part, but not the only source, of the power accumulated as Earth’s sensible heat (measured as thermometric temperature). The power transfer between all Solar system bodies adjusting their rotational and orbital angular momentum to fit, has never been considered by stupid academic Climate Clowns.

            “At what temperature does CO2 actually absorb and emit energy.”

            As far as I have measured, spectral “delta radiance” as established by spectral emissivity and a high exponent function near T³ of “measurable absolute temperature”.
            of both emitter and opposing absorber, in each direction.
            Precision in measurement is not required, everything is close enough for gov’ment work. Precision in identifying what is being ‘measured’ is absolutely demanded!!
            “Questions related to our understanding of the CO2 thing.:-)”

            Good questions! No answers!
            All the best!-will-

            32

            • #
              KinkyKeith

              Thanks Will.

              12

            • #
              KinkyKeith

              Will

              Gus died in 1887.

              00

              • #
                Will Janoschka

                “Gus died in 1887.”

                Miller was founded in 1855. GUS coined the term “black body” radiation in 1862. Max Planck was his student, along with Loránd Eötvös, Dmitri Mendeleev, Jules Piccard, and Max Noether; father of Emmy Noether who was only 5 at the time of Kirchhoff’s death. Gus is sadly missed by all! :-(
                all the best!-will-

                10

              • #
                KinkyKeith

                Sounds like “Gus” influenced a lot of well known people.

                10

              • #
                Will Janoschka

                “Sounds like “Gus” influenced a lot of well known people.”
                Yes, he along with Rudy Clausius and Jimmy Maxwell, plus their students; influenced almost everyone except the post modern academics who think they were born knowing it all, just ask!
                Rudy could be kind of abrupt at times. When he said “stuff don spontaneously go uphill”, believe it! Nobody futzed with Rudy, just look at his picture. Each was always willing to buy the next round, to keep science alive. :-)
                All the best!-will-

                11

    • #
      tom0mason

      Peter C,

      Look-up the work of Professor Wood and his famous experiment.
      Look-up Fleagle and Businger who in 1963 devoted a section of their text to the point that the atmosphere is not and could never be regarded as a greenhouse, and suggested that radiation trapping by the earth’s atmosphere should be called ‘atmosphere effect’ to discourage use of the misnomer.
      Look-up Munn (1966) who reiterated, because the scientific establishment is too thick to understand, that the analogy between ‘atmosphere’ and ‘greenhouse’ effect ‘is not correct because a major factor in greenhouse climate is the protection the glass gives against turbulent heat losses’.

      42

  • #
    toorightmate

    Well if you reckon global warming was bad, it pales into insignificance with the news that Melbourne is going to ditch the Logies and they will be held in Brisbane next year.
    We have had to put up with Amnesia PalaceChick for 3 years and now we cop this!!!! Bloody hell!!!!!

    80

  • #
    toorightmate

    Irma (in the Atlantic) is currently showing winds of 105kph.
    Those winds will be about 250mph by the time they reach CNN, New York Times and the Washington Post.

    71

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Obviously news outlets are a natural attractor for weather systems. As such the news cannot easily be isolated from the wind.

      71

    • #
      sophocles

      See the current space weather. Select Sept. 3 (Sunday) and have a look. Earth is looking down two barrels of the Solar gun: two very large and very active sunspots AR2674 and AR2673. If either or both of them have a flare while we’re staring at each other, then any resulting CME will be full face on. It’s a nice movie from NASA’s Solar Dynamics Observatory.

      The aurorae at both poles will be brilliant :-)

      And Irma may go from Cat III to Cat V. There is another TC in the western pacific but I haven’t looked into it yet. It, too, in the circumstances, might suffer a similar boost from such a pat on its backside. I’ve got my fingers crossed that these might rotate past without any damage …

      20

  • #
    pat

    read all. has the CFMEU seen the light?

    3 Sept: Herald Sun: Taxpayers to shell out up to $350 million for Andrews’ energy plan
    by Matt Johnston and Rob Harris
    VICTORIAN taxpayers will cough up hundreds of millions of dollars to help pay for the Andrews government’s upcoming solar and wind farm auction.
    The public subsidy was added to the scheme at the last minute to avoid passing extra costs to household bills — which are already skyrocketing.
    The move will punch a $250-350 million hole in the state Budget, and experts warn the full cost could be much higher.
    But the exact sum is being hidden from taxpayers: the government argues its contribution, which is capped, could distort the competitive process…

    Industry sources have told the Herald Sun that Victorian policy, prolonged federal inaction, and a lack of investor certainty meant there were now major doubts whether Yallourn W, supplying about a fifth of the state’s power, would remain open beyond 2022…
    According to an Australian Energy Council document, the 43-year-old Latrobe Valley power station could close as early as 2020. Energy Australia has repeatedly said it has enough coal to last until 2032 and it plans to run it until then.
    But it has conceded policy settings and market influence may change before then…

    The Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union’s mining division state secretary, Geoff Dyke, said there was no policy to find more reliable baseload power as coal-fired stations closed:
    “Things might change when people won’t have electricity and the price of electricity becomes unaffordable,” he said.
    “I will be absolutely amazed if we don’t have blackouts this summer.”
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/taxpayers-to-shell-out-up-to-350-million-for-andrews-energy-plan/news-story/e483f2848d79d975ee537cb6751599a0

    70

  • #
    pat

    ***has the SNP seen the light?

    3 Sept: SundayHerald Scotland: Aristocrat Buccleuch’s windfarm plan risks unearthing lead contamination
    by Rob Edwards
    A PLAN by the Duke of Buccleuch to build a large wind farm in southwest Scotland is facing fierce opposition from local residents and politicians across the political divide.
    Erecting 35 wind turbines on the hillsides between Sanquhar and Wanlockhead in Dumfries and Galloway will wreck the landscape, risk unearthing contamination from old lead mines and undermine plans for a community land buy-out, they say…

    Buccleuch, Britain’s largest private landowner, has joined with a renewables company under the banner of the North Lowther Energy Initiative to apply for permission for a 151-megawatt windfarm. The application is currently being considered by the Scottish Government.

    But leading SNP, Conservative and Labour MSPs have lodged forceful objections, as have community organisations and recreation groups in Wanlockhead and Leadhills…
    ***Joan McAlpine, the SNP MSP for South Scotland, said: “The proposal to locate so many turbines in this area will irreversibly destroy its unique character.”…READ ON

    FROM COMMENTS:
    Michael Maciocia: I think the real smoking gun is the annual subsidy Buccleuch will get per turbine – that is what he is really after, the millions that that delivers to the largest land owners!

    willie ross: I’m absolutely stunned by the comments from the SNP’s Joan McAlpine…What about all the other areas throughout Scotland with a ‘unique character’, which her party has allowed to be trashed with useless turbines. Loch Ness area, Caithness, Aberdeenshire, Dumfries and Galloway to name a few…ETC…
    The SNP have bent over backwards to side with any landowner or foreign developer who wishes to trash our once cherished landscapes with turbines, and if Joan McAlpine is just realising this now, then shame on her.
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15511518.Aristocrat_Buccleuch__39_s_windfarm_plan_risks_unearthing_lead_contamination/

    lengthy, but well worth a read:

    2 Sept: NorthCountryNow New York: Wind project opponents say Avangrid’s proposed project is tearing friends and families apart in Parishville, Hopkinton
    By MATT LINDSEY
    “Some people aren’t the same toward each other in public,” said Hopkinton resident wind opponent Janice Pease, who plans to run for the town board this fall. “Some of my family who are pro-wind have said they are no longer calling me family; which if they choose money over health and family, then I guess we have little in common anyway.”

    “For those of us who have educated ourselves on the swindle of wind farms — it is hard to understand how people could sell out their community for money,” Hopkinton resident Kelly Pullano said.
    Parishville resident Gary Snell Sr., who is also against building the wind farm, says that he is upset with the way the project started. “They (Avangrid) contacted landowners prior to talking to the towns.”…READ ALL
    http://northcountrynow.com/news/wind-project-opponents-say-avangrids-proposed-project-tearing-friends-and-families-apart

    40

  • #

    From the 1st September, the European Union imposed new vacuum cleaner regulations, limiting the maximum power to 900 watts replacing the 1600 watt maximum imposed three years ago. The EU Commission claimed
    Updated energy efficiency rules for vacuum cleaners will save consumers money.
    It further claimed that it could save up to 20TWh of electricity by 2020, and thus 6 million tonnes of GHG emissions.
    I have examined this claims. The cost savings are both flawed and ignore the cost increases of new vacuum cleaners and the extra time spent in operating due to decreased power. The emissions reductions are grossly exaggerated, despite being around 0.6% of the EUs 2030 target and equivalent to about 0.01% of the total.
    My post is here.

    121

    • #
      toorightmate

      Kevin,
      Does this mean that they are no longer the suckers they used to be?

      80

      • #
        Geoff Sherrington

        The difference between a good vacuum cleaner and the Swiss Navy. A good vacuum cleaner sucks and sucks and never fails. The Swiss do not have a Navy. Geoff

        90

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          So just import a 160W vacuum cleaner from Australia…easy….

          We have an older Dyson DC04, I wont buy the new ones as they look flash, but seem very flimsy by comparison, and is at odds with solid engineering, IMHO.

          Our older DC04 we bought in 2003 has been dropped and suffered many mishaps, but keeps going as its quite solid. The newer ones I have my doubts. The other thing is the newer cleaners have very high speed motors, high speed = higher wear I’d have thought….slower lower revving motors usually last longer.

          It would be intersting if Dyson have opted for high speed to reduce power usage perhaps?

          The joys of marketting into the European Soviet ( EU ) and its CAGW lunacy….

          10

      • #

        Too right mate.

        It means that you can no longer get sturdy high-powered vacuum cleaners. Instead, they are smaller, more high tech and expensive.

        60

        • #
          Roger

          and take twice as long to do the same job ……

          50

          • #

            Time is something that the EU experts did not consider in the energy savings calculation. But a simple way to keep the suction when the power is reduced is to reduce the area in contact with the floor.

            40

          • #
            sophocles

            but then if it takes twice as long to vacuum the same carpet with a 900W machine as it took to do with a 1600W machine, then it uses twice the power at 1800W which is a nett gain in power consumed, not a saving.

            And you have a thoroughly frustrated householder.

            The `technologically and intellectually impoverished‘ EU Commisioners did the same with kettles, without thinking at all about efficiency, which the kettle designer did. The kettle heats the water much faster than the kettle loses heat through its surface. A lower power kettle can’t heat the water as fast so the radiative/convective losses form a much higher proportion of its power consumption, requiring the kettle to cook longer and thus use more power. It’s not good for the power consumer but just Great if you own the wind farm.

            It’s been my observations over my lifetime, that those doing the vacuuming prefer the higher powered machines so they spend a significantly shorter time doing that job.
            Most users of kettles use them with high efficiency by only filling them with as much water as is required for immediate use.

            But of course, an EU Commissioner is much more `efficient’ than any mere householder could possibly be.
            The ID-10-t should be sent the power bills to pay the increase in usage out of his salary…

            50

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              Hmmm…maybe a market in grey motor imports?

              A new industry in europe – vacuum motor modding…..

              The only thing is, not sure whether the barrel and cyclones need to be modified to cope with a higher airflow, or just import parts from Australia to suit, once the motor has been changed….

              900W motor…stupid idea….

              10

            • #
              RexAlan

              “It’s been my observations over my lifetime, that those doing the vacuuming prefer the higher powered machines so they spend a significantly shorter time doing that job”.

              And especially so if they suffer from back problems.

              20

        • #
          RickWill

          2000W for $49 is a lot of power for the price:
          https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-2000w-cyclonic-bagless-hepa-vacuum/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_ads&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrcrhhZmK1gIV0wcqCh1fkQSKEAQYASABEgKJXvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
          Not sure about it being sturdy.

          I have seen 1250W to 1500W workshop vacuums for well under $100. They are noise but have large, easily cleaned filter and huge storage. They are also light and easy to carry. They glide over carpet or hard floor with four well spaced casters. As good as most if used with a set of ear muffs.

          We have a new Miele rated at 1600W. At full power it slides a large carpet on the hard floor before the head slides on the carpet. It has adjustable power to reduce the pressure. It would be hopeless without that. The Miele is the only vacuum I have ever used that will remove fine cat fur from a carpet without a power head. A third of the price of a Dyson and the Dyson is clumsy, noisy and ineffective by comparison.

          30

    • #
      TdeF

      So cars for bicycles, brooms for vacuum cleaners, fans for cooling, wood ovens and coal fired trains for mass transport. All supported by the people afraid of everything new. Green Luddites.

      100

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      From the 1st September, the European Union imposed new vacuum cleaner regulations, limiting the maximum power to 900 watts replacing the 1600 watt maximum imposed three years ago.

      And no one understands Brexit. I wonder why.

      110

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Actually I know why and have known it for years. Anyone believing these micromanaged details of life dictated from someone who, just for instance never vacuumed a carpet in his miserable “expert” life, are a good idea, have proven my right once again. NOTHING STAYS AROUND LONGER THAN A BAD IDEA. And when people who get stuck, make that stabbed by a bad idea finally realize what’s happening to them they do not like it.

        I was going to add that the new vacuum cleaner regulation sucks. But obviously the old one sucks a whole lot better than the new.

        The cheapening of Europe is well underway. Actually the cheapening of the world is what it needs to be called.

        Before it’s over we’ll all regret ever having heard of carbon dioxide and temperature measurement. Life was so much nicer when a hot day was just a hot day, nothing needed but to complain about it, not a reason for idiotic government decisions.

        110

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          We could always go back to the hand pumped vacuum cleaner. I’m thinking it could substitute for a good workout while not getting your carpet cleaned.

          It is unquestionably the best*** so why did we ever think electricity could do a better job.

          50

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            *** Don’t believe me, believe the manufacturer. He wouldn’t lie any more than the EU would. Both are giving you good sound advice from the experts.

            50

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          To an Electrical Engineer, motors generally have two important attributes: physical power output rating, and physical size.

          Now if you can find a motor that has the same physical size, but also has a higher output rating … ?

          30

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            But to a regulation writer the actual power consumed in Watts would be important. And he’s not sounding like and engineer but a bureaucrat. Lets never mind that rating motors, AC or DC in Watts is a bit problematical because they increase their power consumption as the load increases. So the exact operating circumstance must be specified before 900 W means anything. Then there’s the power factor for any inductive load like a motor.

            Then there’s the plain old asinine nature of what they’re doing. I hope the corals and the Polar Bears appreciate the effort.

            31

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              The longer this nonsense goes on, themore I crave a cabin in the woods, diesel gennie, no internet and a trusty 30-08 and a few thousand rounds of ammo, to go and get dinner each night….a simpler life….

              Ironically, if Dear Leader in Victoriastan continues as he is, it wont be long before people will be camping in their houses ( minus the firearms of course, because all Socialists hate people who can defend themselves from nhilist Socialists )….

              50

          • #
            Analitik

            Stronger PMs can give the same physical size with a higher output rating. It won’t any more efficient, though so the EU power restriction would just result in smaller motors needing to run for longer (leading to the same or even greater energy consumption).

            10

      • #

        Roy,

        There is a follow-up. The BBC article that I refer to in my post did not consult an EU commission, or an MEP, but he European Environment Bureau (EEB). At EEB dot org you will find the following

        The EEB is the largest network of environmental citizens’ organisations in Europe. It currently consists of around 140 member organisations in more than 30 countries (virtually all EU Member States plus some accession and neighbouring countries), including a growing number of European networks, and representing some 15 million individual members and supporters

        Their funding in 2015 was 40% from Foundations (some of which not in the EU) and 34% from various EU programs. But curiously on the day of the announcement, there was nothing about vacuum cleaners on their website. In fact on their Twitter feed, they referred the announcement from Cool Products for a Cooler Planet. This is not some sort of trendy online mail order gadget site, but another organization part funded by foundations and part funded by the EU. From the about page

        We are a coalition of European NGOs working to ensure that ecodesign and energy labelling truly work for Europeans and the environment. Led by the European Environmental Bureau and ECOS at a Brussels level, the campaign is fought at member state level by the specialists listed below.

        The EU is the legislative body of political activist organizations who impose policies on the masses. They are not experts as a medical, legal or accountancy professional. The vacuum cleaner scandal is another example of having a massively inflated sense of their own importance – the world will collapse without their policies – and have no sense of the harms that policies cause.
        Brexit is a good example of their delusions. Britain should have been in recession by the end of 2016, as jobs and investment fled Britain. Latest figures show massive inward investment (some from those who threatened to withdraw if Britain voted for Leave) and unemployment is now 4.4%, the lowest since 1975. Doom is still to come if we do not strike a deal to remain tied to the EU.

        40

        • #
          Roger

          Kevin, something you haven’t touched on but was clear from TV interviews when these policies were originally announced, it is not so much about energy saving, it owes as much or more to the protectionist way that the EU works.

          By working up these ideas with European manufacturers it was intended to make it harder for non-EU manufacturers to sell into europe and thus give a ‘competitive’ – aka Protectionist – advantage to EU based manufacturers.

          A study published last week showed that the average UK household Food Bill will reduce by £55.00 a week once we leave the EU – and the artifical pricing mechanisms forced by the Common Agricultural Policy and punitive food import duties no longer apply to the UK.

          30

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Doom is still to come if we do not strike a deal to remain tied to the EU.

          Kevin,

          I suspect doom awaits anyone in the clutches of the EU. Better out and be your own master than in and be a slave to Brussels.

          20

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Of course the UK government hasn’t exactly been the gold standard model to follow, has it?

            00

          • #
            KinkyKeith

            As you say Roy “better out than ….”

            And the people of the U.S. said better Trump than the existing system of government by the elites for the elites.

            That’s what democracy is about, no matter how imperfect it might seem.

            North Korea, Venezuela, Zimbabwe and others can only dream of having elections where they actually bother to count the votes.

            Read a comment last night that said that the cost of food in the U.K. would drop dramatically when they could escape the clutches of EU tariffs and surcharges.

            Never give up hope.

            KK

            10

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Kevin, the Commission has to keep busy or they would lose their jobs.

      Australia has not gone unscathed.

      We have our own monster called BASICs to help make building your new home more expensive.

      It also allows government to divert tax money from building dams and power stations to better uses like trips to Paris for the IPCCCC meetings.

      Never say that politicians aren’t smart.

      KK

      50

      • #

        KK,
        I do not think that is money that drives the bureaucrats, but something deeper. They believe that the regulations are genuinely the only way to stop the world from collapsing. That is why they genuinely believe without regulations people will buy cheap, noisy, inefficient Chinese imports. Climate Alarmists are even worse. Without Agreements and endless conferences, the world is headed for doom. Clive James summed this up in the final verse of the poem Imminent Catastrophe he wrote last year.

        Die down, but the deep anguish will persist.
        His death, and not the Earth’s, is the true fear
        That motivates the doomsday fantasist:
        There can be no world if he is not here.

        In criticizing the bureaucrats and the alarmists, you are threatening their world view.

        50

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          In criticizing the bureaucrats and the alarmists, you are threatening their world view.

          Is it now? Well that is a two way street. They threaten not just my world view but my world. It has become a fight for survival. And they have the upper hand. I will fight them tooth and nail any way I can, which unfortunately is only with words and my vote.

          50

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Roy, you are in the USA, you fortunately have the 2nd Ammendment which you will need to use to its fullest if you are to survive this lot….

            The only way it can be changed is is they invent some “crisis” and impose martial law and suspend the US Consititution, but most americans will now somethings up and I doubt any will hand over their firearms…..last count there was like 500 millions guns in the US.

            Pity any fool who thinks they can invade or control the USA with a population armed to the teeth and able to use their firearms…..

            30

      • #
        John Westman

        KK. A little more about basic’s (sic). Actually it is basix.

        This is a program introduced by the State Government to make new houses more energy efficient and “water wise”. I suspect that they have signed onto the questionable United Nations drive for so called “sustainability”, whatever that means.

        I was planning to build a new home but have found that the additional cost to build was so great, that I have had to can my plans. So am looking to downsize to a cabin/bedsitter. Thousands of dollars spent to get plans ready, only to run into the brick wall that is Basixs.

        How much is added to the cost of a new home? I don’t know as it would depend on design, siting, location and so on. In my own experience and in talking to others, I think around $10,000.00 for a small basic 3 bedroom home. They talk about housing affordability-what pernicious deceitfulness. The working people have been sold out to the United Nations green ideology.

        Now for some real absurdity.

        You need to earn stars depending on the appliances installed. Toilets are rated from 1 to 6. A waterless toilet gets the brownie points with 6 stars. A 1 star rated toilet would use the most water. I recently installed a 3 star rated toilet, in a separate project, which has 6/3 litres per flush. I have had to flush this toilet 2 and 3 times to get it cleaned properly. What is a 4 and 5 star rated toilet like? Imagine the frustration in attempting to flush the current government down the toilet 2 and 3 times.

        You cannot build a new house with an electric hot water system now, unless you put solar panels on the roof. Your choice is to use gas, but what if you are forced to use LPG- much more expensive! I have experience with solar panels and they have very limited efficacy.

        I have nothing but contempt(I hope that the moderator does not cancel my post-but I am being truthful) for the politicians involved in this programme-perhaps many have seen the writing on the wall and are abandoning the ship. To them I say, good riddance, and don’t come back. We need a revolution in this country-out with the old and in with the new. Me for the senate?

        With the BASIX programme and rocketing energy prices we must be heading for recession.

        90

        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Yes John

          I think the figure of about $10,000 is on the mark.

          My new Chynese rain water tank cost about $4,000 and stopped working after 4 years. The plumber said that the innards were of poor quality and pointless replacing the.

          I worked out that payback would have been long after my death and that if all this money was used properly would have paid for several great new dams.

          Manipulation of public moneys is a great game if you are a beneficiary.

          Our state government recently sold land that had been paid for out of our local water rates. the land was for a new dam. The money went back to NSW State revenue.

          You cant believe what goes on. Absolutely criminal.

          KK

          60

        • #
          Roger

          Water Saving !!! New toilets with limited flush to reduce water consumption have caused havoc in Germany and California where the main sewers have blocked up as there is insufficient water to carry the waste away !!

          Green ‘Economics’ and Green Ideas all arise in some fanatsy world, a truly parallel universe where commonsense, experience and genuine honest science are not allowed to be heard.

          60

    • #
      Roger

      Yes – going to work really well, use half the electricity but take twice as long …….

      If a camel is a horse designed by a committee then today’s EU energy policies seem to have been designed by the camels …..

      Rumour has it that the next Big Idea for the EU’s Energy Directives will require vacuum cleaners, irons and electric heaters to be powered by PV cells to capture the energy loss from domestic lighting and LEDs …..

      40

  • #

    We all know that wind power cannot ever supply Base Load power, even if it is as low as only 1000MW. as in the case of South Australia.

    For five and a half days last week, when you include the power coming from Victoria via those two Interconnectors, South Australia’s total power supply was provided by fossil fuels to the tune of 90 to 98%, and at one stage 100%.

    At one stage, there were 18 natural gas fired Units in operation, some of them generating barely 20MW, and generating 2120MW in all, just to keep the power on so the State did not go black, and at enormous cost too, because power at that time when it was all coming from gas fired plants, the cost soared to $350/MWH, not just a spike, but constantly between $250 and $350/MWH

    That Pelican Point Plant has been running virtually non stop since the blackout, so that’s providing 485MW, all the time, and with Osborne also running nearly all the time at around 200MW, there’s almost 700MW available at all times, whether the wind is good or bad. If the wind gets up, then the excess is provided back into Victoria via those two Interconnectors. Sometimes I wonder about that Pelican Point plant, whether a deal was done to keep it running all the time, no matter what, and with the cost of gas so high and all.

    This was a week when wind power was low, but even when it’s high, the remaining coal fired plants across those three Major States provide virtually the same amount of power every day.

    Another thing of note is that on an Australia wide basis, while coal fired power provides 80% Plus at that minimum Base Load point in time (4AM) it’s also worthwhile to note that Natural gas fired plants are also in operation at that time, and if all fossil fuel is taken into account, then at that 4AM point in time, Australia is being supplied with power that is 90% PLUS provided from fossil fuels.

    This week’s data and analysis is at the following link:

    Australian Base Load Electrical Power – Week Ending 2nd September 2017

    Tony.

    202

    • #
      toorightmate

      Who needs base load power when you have genius such as Turnbull, Weatherdill and John Setka running the country?

      40

  • #
    Geoff Sherrington

    Our electricity provider, AGL Energy, produced a glossy booklet a few weeks ago, saying it was getting out of coal.
    Now consider three matters:
    1. Electricity provision is almost an essential service.
    2. AGL and few similar companies combine to almost have a monopoly.
    3. Most economic and engineering studies say 100% renewables are not feasible for national scale.
    This raises a fundamental question. Does AGL have the authority, as an unelected group, to make a no coal decision? Or is that a decision properly made only by the Federal Government? Geoff

    180

    • #
      el gordo

      ‘Does AGL have the authority, as an unelected group, to make a no coal decision? ‘

      That is a very good point and worthwhile following up, but at this stage they are determined to be out of the coal business by mid century and offer counselling.

      ‘We’ve committed $1.2 million over three years to fund financial counselling services for customers who are struggling to make ends meet, and we’re establishing the Fairer Way Package, which makes sure concession card holders and customers in greatest need are both on competitive plans and won’t incur late fees.

      ‘Because domestic violence can be a factor when people are struggling to pay bills, AGL introduced a domestic violence policy, to provide better support both for our people and for customers who are impacted by domestic violence.’

      AGL

      40

    • #
      RickWill

      AGL is a private business and there is nothing unlawful yet about closing down coal generators. If the recommendations of the Finkel inquiry come into law then they will be obliged to give 3 year’s notice. All privately owned coal generators could give notice now that they are will close down their plants in three years. Having given notice I doubt that the law will require them to actually follow through in the allotted time.

      70

      • #
        toorightmate

        Remove subsidies and AGL will rapidly change direction.
        The CO2 horsesh*t has to stop.

        90

        • #
          el gordo

          To stop the subsidies we need to prove that CO2 is a harmless trace gas and global cooling has begun.

          30

          • #
            Peter C

            Several problems there El Gordo.

            Firstly all the global temperature series, including UAH are still going up. UAH might go below the base line sometime soon but it has not happened yet.

            Secondly the all our Government and scientific institutions say increased CO2 is causing warming. If anyone says, well how do you know that they reply; “the IPCC says so”. If one then says that the IPCC is likely wrong they are called a denier and a conspiracy theorist.

            I see no way to win this argument until the temperature actually starts to go down.

            51

    • #
      Analitik

      Note the time frame for “getting out”. AGL are just pulling a public relations stunt with this announcement and will do an about turn as soon as the federal government is finally forced to drop its renewables “initiatives” due to economic reality.

      40

  • #
    RickWill

    Renewables are unrenewable. 100% renewables with present technology is impossible.

    Solar and wind resources in Australia are quite good but there are days when there is not much of it. I am focusing on sun here.

    Solar panels are rated at solar intensity of 1000W/sq.m. That means to get 1kWh from a 1Kw array there needs to be 3.6MJ/sq.m at the array. All capital cities in Australia have days when there is less that 3.6MJ/sq.m. Some examples
    Sydney and Brisbane same day:
    http://www.bom.gov.au/web03/ncc/www/awap/solar/solarave/daily/colour/history/nat/2017033020170330.gif
    Melbourne
    http://www.bom.gov.au/web03/ncc/www/awap/solar/solarave/daily/colour/history/nat/2015071220150712.gif
    Adelaide
    http://www.bom.gov.au/web03/ncc/www/awap/solar/solarave/daily/colour/history/nat/2012022920120229.gif
    Perth
    http://www.bom.gov.au/web03/ncc/www/awap/solar/solarave/daily/colour/history/nat/2017062220170622.gif

    I have not found two consecutive days with less than 3MJ/sq.m. My own experience in Melbourne is that there is a 99.9% chance of having at least 7.2MJ/sq.m in 48 hours.

    All this means that to guarantees on-demand power at 99.9% a solar power systems needs 1kW of collection capacity and 2kWh of storage capacity for every 1kWh of energy delivered. This system can produce 365kWh of dispatchable power every year.

    A 1kW solar array requires 3000kWh of energy to produce and a 2kWh LFP battery requires 700kWh to produce it. Taking the panel to have an operating life of 25 years means it requires 120kWh every year to be eventually replaced. The battery is expected to have a cycle life of 5000 under these operating conditions where DoD is mostly less than 50%; given 13 years of operation or 54kwh every year to be eventually replaced. The annual energy requirement to replicate the system is therefore 174kWh.

    So a system able to produce 365kWh of dispatchable power every year requires 48% of that power to be consumed in just making the major components. That does not leave enough to sustain the society that must replicate itself; house and educate itself; build the factories to manufacture the components and all the other things that go on in a modern society.

    The only reason modern society can currently afford wind and solar is because all the components are manufactured using coal.

    Where the vast majority of renewable modelling fail is that they model the existing grid as a big battery that is able to sink excess power and supply power when there are shortage. The only power of value to the grid is from dispatchable generators.

    This link shows a chart that all policy makers should be looking at understanding why is it so!
    https://gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/euan-mearns-europe-electric-price.png
    If they understand the reasons why this correlation is so strong then they will be backing away from the nonrenewable renewables. The current technology is an ABSOLUTE DEAD END.

    61

    • #
      RickWill

      For Australia to achieve 100% of its current electricity demand from wind and solar it would need an installed capacity of 10000W/capita – extrapolate that.

      Actually SA is up there with Denmark and Germany. They have been fortunate to have Victoria to help them out up to this year in the same way Germany and Denmark can rely on neighbouring countries. However the full cost of power in SA is not fully borne by the state as it gets income from its abundance of LGCs that the consumers in other states are obliged to buy. So that is keeping the costs in SA lower than they otherwise would be. They also have a sink for their valueless intermittent energy when there is an excess and Victoria is obliged to take it.

      101

    • #
      RobK

      Rick,
      You might be better off using cumulative daily insolation data rather than max.http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/cdio/weatherData/av?p_display_type=dataDGraph&p_stn_num=009021&p_nccObsCode=193&p_month=13&p_startYear=2016
      In practical terms a well oriented 1kW fixed array in perth will average (over a year)around 5kWh/day (more in summer, less in winter). A 2kWh battery and 1kW array will not supply very much continuous power, especially in winter.

      20

      • #
        RobK

        Rick,
        I’ve reread your comment and see what you are getting at with 1 kWh/day dispatchable. Ignore my earlier comment.

        30

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      RickWill:

      the panels may be rated at 1000W per Sq. metre but what is the intensity of the solar energy available? Figures measured near Tennant Creek many years ago had times of 540W/sq.m and 760W/sqm was a better figure as an average. The problem was dust haze.
      Then there is the drop in peformance as the panels heat up.

      And the forecast in Adelaide is for the coming week to be mainly overcast with lots of water to clean those solar panels.

      30

      • #
        RickWill

        The maps I have linked to give the actual energy reaching ground level. To produce 1kWh of energy from a 1kW array there needs to be 3.6MJ/sq.m.

        The maps show that some days the entire energy over a 24 hour period at ground level is less than 3MJ/sq.m. That equates to average less than 69W/sq.m for 12 hours of daylight. So way under your figures.

        The 1000W/sq.m is the agreed standard for rating a panel. The panels are also rated at panel temperature of 25C. I have seen peak power from my system 10% above the rated value on cool cloudy days when there is a sudden break in the clouds and they get full sunshine before the panels have time to warm up.

        The insolation maps provide unarguable data that there are some days when there is not much sunshine. It also shows that it is rare to have consecutive days with less than 2 hours equivalent full sunshine or at least 7.2MJ/sq.m over any two days on mainland Australia. Parts of Tassie has less than 3MJ/sq.m on consecutive days so the battery there would need to be bigger than 2kWh for every 1kWh of dispatchable energy.

        Adelaide gets the best sunshine of the capitals. The way I found the 2012 date Adelaide was to follow up on a comment a fellow made on Whirlpool that his system did not produce any exported power on that day.

        30

        • #
          ROM

          There are two articles, one a Spanish based paper, the other from Euan Mearn’s site “Energy Matters” explaining the concept of ERoEI, ; Energy Returned on Energy Invested

          ERoEI was a term I first came across some 3 or 4 years ago.

          It is the basic calculation that gives a statistical base to any claims as to the whether a particular energy source is self sustaining or for a civilisation, whether that energy source is capable of sustaining that civilisation.

          An energy source requires a absolute minimum of about a 5 to 1 ERoEI ratio, it must generate at least a minimum of five times the amount of energy output over its lifetime as measured against the total amount of energy required to create that energy source in the first place for it to be of any value as an energy source in the maintaining and continuing to lift the living standards of our current civilisation.

          Less than this 5 to 1 ERoEI number and the energy source becomes of a deficit value to the our civilisation.
          Using it as an energy source requires and creates a reduction in living standards due to the lack of useable amounts of energy in the amounts needed to maintain our living standards.

          The real and main problem in calculating the ERoEI for any energy source is that it is horrendously difficult to give the correct priorities and correct influences and therefore the appropriate numbers to all the factors that go to making up an energy source so that an accurate calculation can be made as to an energy source’s ERoEI and therefore its usability and value to our civilisation and to human kind.

          Consequently we have numerous claims and different numbers provided for all of our energy sources depending on the authors and researchers and particularly their attitudes to the various energy sources with the renewable energy advocates using some often highly suspect and corrupted data and assumptions to back their claims for the Renewable energy’s ERoEI and for the range of energy sources humanity now uses.

          As Energy, particularly the usability and viability of Renewable Energy systems is a subject of a very regular discussion and commentary here on Jo’s site, rather than myself trying to re-invent the wheel, I suggest that anybody interested should familiarise themselves with the ERoEI [ "Energy Returned on Energy Invested" ] concept of measuring the useability of an energy source to maintain and lifting our ciivilisation and our living standards by reading Euan Mearns explanation of in his ERoEI for Beginners

          And for an actual full analysis of the ERoEI of Solar energy systems as seen in the Spanish context which climate wise is not that different to south eastern Australia , the very heavily loaded graphics and dense information PDF; The net EROI for solar PV: a case study for Spain

          30

          • #
            ROM

            From the Conclusions to be found in the Spanish paper as per my link in post #13.3.1.1; The net EROI for solar; a case study for Spain

            Approx required EROI

            2- 3 ; 1 ; Solar PV modules have a global EROI ext of this level [ as best ] ; = Hunter /Gather civilisation support levels.

            4-5 ; 1 Egyytian civilisation support levels .

            5-6 : 1 Medieval / Sailing ships/ Middle Ages civilisation support levels

            6-13 : 1 Early Industrial Revolution /steam / trains /factories replacing cottage industry.

            8 -15 : 1 Electric trains shipping/ aircraft/ sealed highways / high rise offices etc’[ We need a society with this EROI ext level ]

            12-25: 1 Jet Fighters / NASA Shuttles / multi thousand Container ships / Highway overpasses . tunnels etc / airport hubs / computers; snmart phones . global commiunications .
            .

            And solar PV systems = 2-3 ; 1 ERoEI ;

            The equivalent of very nearly all the energy generated by a Solar PV system would be used to mine, refine, create, build and maintain that same Solar PV system leaving virtually nothing left over to sustain a civilisation.

            Solar PV systems “Energy Invested” as compared to “Energy Returned” is just enough to run a Hunter-gatherer civilisation where we would use Skins for clothing and stone for tools,

            60

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              Which sort of proves my point that the greenies are trying to force us back into mud huts, with associated disease and short life span, so we can be easily culled by 3rd world conditions…..

              20

            • #
              ROM

              Did a little digging on the ERoEI of wind and found a blog, Energy Transition that looks at the poster child of the global renewable energy industry, Germany’s transition to Renewable Energy , the Energiewende.

              [ Which is now being very quietly abandoned by the political class to the greens and wind scammers distress as the polulace has just plain had a gutsful of the rampant corruption of the wind industry and is now refusing to allow any more turbines to be built in a lot of the Germany's revered natural forest sites as well as having had a gutdsful of the horrendous power prices . Or they were horrendous until we passed them in that competition. ]
              .
              And for interest
              .
              The modern wind sector – and the Energiewende – turns 30 today

              August 24, 2017
              .

              Renewables K.O.-ed by EROI?

              A graph at this link provides the EroEI’s of the most used energy sources . You can look these up for yourself.
              .

              As Wind interests us the most here, a graph here indicates that wind energy has an EroEI of 16 which is close to some other numbers [ 18 ] I have seen elsewhere.

              That puts the putative Wind turbine energy as capable of running a civilisation with the energy requiremnts of some 20 or 30 years ago.
              BUT and it is a very big But indeed, Wind as we all know completely lacks “dispatchability”.

              Wind turbines are incapable of delivering power when wanted and needed.
              Nor can wind energy provide ANY time table by which it can and will deliver a required amount of energy at a set time to the consumers as and when demanded.

              To overcome this very significant factor that is wind’s Achilles heel, storage must be included in any calculations for the energy that wind produces in excess at times, for release when wind is not producing sufficient energy,ie; buffering is included in the calculations for winds EroEI.

              “Buffering” of course being energy storage systems such as batteries and pumped storage and even fast response fossil fueled systems such as gas turbines and etc.

              And all those energy storage systems that have to be part and parcel of wind’s ability to provide highly programmed, regular and reliable dispatchability of energy to a civilisation also costs energy to create, build, maintain, sometimes fueled and controled and has to be therefore included in the EroEI of the entire Wind Turbine energy production system.

              And when the Buffering factor is included in the ERoEI wind energy production systems, the ERoEI for wind comes down to around 3.9, ie; the energy EroEI that would be capable of supporting a civilisation’s energy needs at the level of the Egyptian Pharoahs and pyramid building civilisation period of some 3 to 4000 years ago.

              So there you have it, neither Solar alone nor Wind alone despite every conceivable technological advance in either system will never be capable of supporting a civilisation more advanced than the Medieval Civilisation of some half a thousand years back or even with Solar some 3 or 4 thousand years ago during the time of the Egyptian Pharoahs.

              Thats what the ERoEI of both of these wind and solar systems, operating as the sole stand alone energy systems for a civilisation, the Energy Invested in creating and building those systems compared to the Energy Returned from those same systems, the energy that they will produce over their life times, are telling us.

              Solar and wind energy systems are both technological and economic dead ends as far as our civlisation’s future energy needs are concerned.

              40

              • #
                ROM

                I should have included the ERoEI of Solar PV if it was Buffered, ie; had the energy storage added that would be needed to supply energy when the Solar PV was not directly producing any energy itself.

                The ERoEI of such a Buffered Solar PV system is given as 1.6.

                And that 1.6 EroEI means that such a Buffered Solar PV system, one with energy storage to keep supplying energy when the Solar PV is not doing so, is barely producing enough energy to create, build, maintain and run itself without having hardly any energy left over to supply all the other multitudinous energy needs of even a low energy level civilisation such as say the ancient civilisations of over 3000 years ago let alone our energy dependent in the extreme, modern day civilisation.

                40

              • #
                RickWill

                That link you provided has a link to the published paper that has the EO/EI for the various technologies:
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55gVsKW_Zv4

                The numbers are slightly more optimistic than my calculation of EOEI for buffered system of 2.1 but are still at subsistence level.

                That paper references this linked paper that has data similar to what I offered in my Finkel inquiry submission:
                https://bravenewclimate.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/peter-lang-solar-realities.pdf
                It does not give values for EO/EI but produces mind numbing capital costs.

                10

              • #
                ROM

                .
                RickWill @ # 13.3.1.1.2

                Re Peter Langs paper; Thanks for that.

                The reality of Solar PV as an energy source for large scale power generation purposes, particularly as the sole national [ renewable ] energy generation source as some believers and deniers of the harsh solar energy realities are promoting will be very painfull for all of us if the politicals in their usual Canberra / Adelaide / Melbourne / Brisbane / Labor / Shorten / Turnbull political stupidity bubble continue to create policies and incentives to the renewable energy industry that are unavailable to anybody else, particularly those who just provide reliable, dead steady, always there and ready to take away electrical energy 24 / 7 / 52.

                The political and green and academic elitist bubble dwellers in their abject ignorance of power generation realities and contempt for the average Australian resident and voter have as usual, never thought through the consequences or even it seems asked the grid and power station engineers for their opinions and suggestions before drawing up policies that force us to buy energy from the renewable energy generating industry.

                A renewable energy industry that from numerous and increasing in number sources, has been shown to be utterly incapable under any circumstances of generating power cheaply, reliably, predictably and without literally, as the numbers show, breaking Australia’s economy and destroying our nation and society in the process.

                30

        • #
          RobK

          Rick,
          The thrust of your argument is correct, a slight variation is that the BoM figures are for a flat horizontal plate where as fixed panels are ideally tilted to compensate for latitude and would cast a larger shadow than their measured area, I.e. intersect more sunlight. That said, in winter that is only for a relatively short time and many domestic installations are sub optimal.

          30

          • #
            RickWill

            Agreed – I realise that but the bad days can occur any day of the year. Look at the dates for the low insolation days for Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide. All occurred when the sun was high in the sky.

            It is interesting because virtually all of Australia can have days of near zero sunshine. I have the best handle on conditions in Melbourne because I have all the historic data over 5 years with my systems. 2015 was the defining year for my off-grid system. I shifted the load to grid supply for about 3 hours to let the battery recover. There were no issues in 2016 and 2017 as jun or July are usually the defining period here.

            My offered system has 3 x 1kW arrays, each consisting of 4 off 250W panels. One array faces almost north at 26 degrees. One faces almost wast at 26 degrees and another faces north at 45 degrees. That gives me some diversity over the array. Quite often the ones facing west do the heavy lifting at certain times of the year.

            Cyclone Debbie affected the whole of the east coast of Australia from southern NSW to northern Queensland. That was when the sun was high in the sky but less than 1 hour full sunshine equivalent made it to the ground.

            I am particularly focused on solar because I believe it does have an economic application even at present component cost. That application is off grid.

            I consider grid scale wind generation as a complete waste of resources and I do not see much prospect for residential scale wind in suburbia in its present form. Hence I have not looked much at wind. I am tempted to test a small turbine to see how that would impact the generation when sun is low here in June and July. It could improve the ERoEI that I gave in the above.

            The great benefit of solar and wind is that it is distributed energy. I am convinced that any benefit associated with diversity in the generation and loads that come with a network would be more than offset by the costs of the network so there iOS no point having wind and solar connected to the network.

            20

            • #
              RobK

              Rick,
              My farm is off grid. I have 3kW fixed solar, 3kW wind, 80kWh battery and two diesel gensets (for shearing and emergency). Wind + solar is better than one or the other and a big battery helps. My battery bank is flooded NiCd cells sourced cheaply from locomotives and repurposed.
              I have a separate 1kW tracking panel on a Grundfos SQF solarflex submersible pump which easily waters 3000 sheep year round from a total lift of 80m, it pumps about 20 cubic meters/day in summer and mostly about 5-10 in winter but there’s a couple of weeks storage.

              40

              • #
                RickWill

                I expect I would not get permission to erect a 3kW wind generator in suburbia. But I could likely hide something like 400W and that might be useful in extending my off-grid system in winter.

                Do you have any data on your consumption? How often does a diesel run when not shearing? When does the diesel run the most?

                The other factor that may benefit you is a rural location that may not get as much cloud as the coast however I have seen from the insolation maps that Alice Springs can have less than 1 hour of full sunshine in a day.

                30

              • #
                RobK

                Rick,
                I used to keep measurements of consumption about twenty years ago when the boys were home. It varies but around 15-20 kWh/day for a family of four. You do tend to adapt, as in cook and use more on high energy days. Low energy days tend to occur at the change of seasons in autumn and spring you get a few on the trot, cloudy and windless. When fronts come through I use reverse cycle a/c. In summer mostly the evaporative a/c is on day and night. When the family was here we’d use maybe 20-40hrs(50-100 litres) of Genset/year. At the moment the Genset hasn’t run for several years. The inverter is a heavy duty 10kVA model that starts the Genset and has input for PV charging. The system voltage is nominal 120v DC, single phase 240vac. The batteries float at about 145vdc. I have vacuum tube hotwater system with a wetback in the wood heater for winter, it has electric element too. I used to use gas cooking but bottled gas is dear and there’s plenty of electricity so mainly use microwave, induction plate and electric oven and slow cooker (crockpot).

                20

              • #
                Peter C

                RobK,

                I suppose that you live somewhere, where a grid connection would be very expensive. Is that why you have developed your renewable electricity resources?

                20

              • #
                RobK

                Peter C,
                Yes, the farm is between two feeders from the grid. Connection would have been about $200k.

                20

  • #
    Yonniestone

    A question for those with legal knowledge, we haven’t received a gas bill since we moved into a new house almost 6 months ago, we contacted our energy retailer 3 months in and was given the run around with weeks later being told there was a stuff up with the change over from the builders retailer and a special reading would take place so that retailer can bill us.

    A few friends and others have claim if you haven’t been billed after 6 months you don’t have to pay it with one giving an actual account of this happening through his business, anyone have any ideas about this? as the obligatory search gives mixed results.

    20

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Can you read the meter yourself? If so start recording your usage at least weekly. This is because any new bill will be an estimate and they are usually inflated, even if only bcause you will be using more gas at the present than you did in early autumn.

      30

      • #
        Yonniestone

        My understanding is the one off bill will be a straight up reading of what is essentially a new meter, besides the inconvenience of getting whacked with a six month bill in one hit its the rate going to be used that’s concerning, from the energy ombudsman we have the right to pay off the bill over the same time it covers.

        The incompetence of our retailer is compounded by having successfully transferred the electricity supply they had one miss at transferring the gas and simply gave up without any notification from them or the other retailer, you’d think a business would want to chase up a willing customer regardless of how small the client is which beggars the question what benefit is this system to the people of this state?

        30

        • #
          OriginalSteve

          My thought would be no bill = their problem.

          You are not responsible to maintain a billing of power for your house.

          20

          • #
            ROM

            I will NOT vouch for the truth of this yarn about gas company bill problems;
            .

            What a world? (country NSW… (New South Wales.. Australia))… On Thursday, 24 January 2002, Derek Guille broadcast this story on his afternoon program on ABC radio.

            In March, 1999, a man living in Kandos (near Mudgee in NSW received a bill for his as yet unused gas line stating that he owed $0.00. He ignored it and threw it away.

            In April he received another bill and threw that one away too.

            The following month the gas company sent him a very nasty note stating they were going to cancel his gas line if he didn’t send them $0.00 by return mail.

            He called them, talked to them, and they said it was a computer error and they would take care of it.

            The following month he decided that it was about time that he tried out the troublesome gas line figuring that if there was usage on the account it would put an end to this ridiculous predicament.

            However, when he went to use the gas, it had been cut off.

            He called the gas company who apologised for the computer error once again and said that they would take care of it.

            The next day he got a bill for $0.00 stating that payment was now overdue.

            Assuming that having spoken to them the previous day the latest bill was yet another mistake, so he ignored it, trusting that the company would be as good as their word and sort the problem out.

            The next month he got a bill for $0.00. This bill also stated that he had 10 days to pay his account or the company would have to take steps to recover the debt.

            Finally, giving in, he thought he would beat the company at their own game and mailed them a cheque [check] for $0.00.

            The computer duly processed his account and returned a statement to the effect that he now owed the gas company nothing at all.

            A week later, the manager of the Mudgee branch of the Westpac Banking Corporation called our hapless friend and asked him what he was doing writing cheque for $0.00.

            After a lengthy explanation the bank manager replied that the $0.00 cheque had caused their cheque processing software to fail.

            The bank could therefore not process ANY cheques they had received from ANY of their customers that day because the cheque for $0.00 had caused the computer to crash.

            The following month the man received a letter from the gas company claiming that his cheque has bounced and that he now owed them $0.00 and unless he sent a cheque by return mail they would take immediate steps to recover the debt.

            At this point, the man decided to file a debt harassment claim against the gas company.

            It took him nearly 2 hours to convince the clerks at the local courthouse that he was not joking.

            They subsequently assisted him in the drafting of statements which were considered substantive evidence of the aggravation and difficulties he had been forced to endure during this debacle.

            The matter was heard in the Magistrate’s Court in Mudgee and the outcome was this: The gas company was ordered to:

            [1] Immediately rectify their computerised accounts system or show cause, within 10 days, why the matter should not be referred to a higher court for consideration under Company Law.

            [2] Pay the bank dishonour fees incurred by the man.

            [3] Pay the bank dishonour fees incurred by all the Westpac clients whose cheques had been bounced on the day our friend’s had been.

            [4] Pay the claimant’s court costs; and

            [5] Pay the claimant a total of $1500 per month for the 5 month period March to July inclusive as compensation for the aggravation they had caused their client to suffer.

            40

  • #
    Yonniestone

    A happy fathers day to all of those blessed with the ability and reckless abandon to give it a go.

    70

  • #
    RAH

    For those that haven’t noticed, we here in the states are in the sights of another major hurricane. Every passing day it is looking like Irma is going strike somewhere along the SE coast of the US after passing over or very close to part of the West Indies and the Bahamas. The storm is expected to strengthen to a CAT V as it moves into warmer waters and moister air. Joe Bastardi at Weatherbell.com put out a special Sunday edition of his daily update video on Irma and I can’t remember him ever doing a daily update on Sunday. So he’s concerned.

    The only good news is that none of the model ensembles show it headed for Texas. They’ve got enough to deal with right now along the coast of the Lone Star state.

    40

    • #
      • #
        RAH

        I live in Indiana about 30 miles NNE of Indianapolis. Summer was considerably cooler and wetter than average this year for us and most of the states in the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley region. No 100 deg. F days and less than a dozen that reached 90. By the middle of June my lawn is usually starting to brown. This year it has stayed green and grown like it’s spring time throughout the summer.

        They have already had frosts in N. Michigan and Minnesota. It’s coming this way sooner rather than later.

        50

        • #
          James

          My observation is the summers are getting shorter too in Nothern NY. Cool lakes will mean a longer winter. I have a good stockpile of fire wood. I have friends in the hay business and it has been a difficult year for hay production. The grapes are 2 weeks behind last year in terms of ripeness. I preferred the summers we got in the mid 2000′s. They seemed to last into mid September!

          00

        • #
          James

          My observation is the summers are getting shorter too in Nothern NY. Cool lakes will mean a longer winter. I have a good stockpile of fire wood. I have friends in the hay business and it has been a difficult year for hay production. The grapes are 2 weeks behind last year in terms of ripeness. I preferred the summers we got in the mid 2000′s. They seemed to last into mid September!

          10

  • #
    Ruairi

    The warmists want more wind-farms built offshore,
    And those who fish these grounds, they just ignore.

    Australia could be called The Land Go Under,
    For wasting billions on a big Green blunder.

    A spike of heat a second long should never,
    Suffice to make a day the ‘warmest ever’.

    120

  • #
  • #
    Mark M

    New peer reviewed research suggests el nino and Hale sunspot cycle responsible for climate change:

    Identification of the driving forces of climate change using the longest instrumental temperature record

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46091

    also a link via twitter: https://twitter.com/TempGlobal/status/904141304271171584

    40

  • #
    KinkyKeith

    After reading items by ROM, Greame 3 and Tony I started fiddling, this came out of it.

    Here’s a “what if” relating to the integration by stealth of the Renewables Support Programme.

    Without having gone into this too deeply and acknowledging Tony’s deep and intimate knowledge of this area, I offer this as a slightly different perspective using some very rough figures.

    First, it seems that about 95% of electrical power in Australia comes from coal or gas fired plants.

    Second, the renewables, or unrenwables as some have named them, produce about 5% of the used power but get paid for about 10%.

    A rough costing.
    HELE plants would cost about $76 per MWh, if we had them,.
    This covers 95% of the total residential power used.

    Total cost of coal fired input 0.95 >< $82.9 = $8.29
    Renewables Total = $ 15.89

    Total Cost of Power Delivered = $72.2 + $15.89 = $ 88.09

    So the cost is $88.09 instead of the potential $76.00 from HELE only.

    So there is an extra charge of $12.09 per MWh. or a 15.9% scam bonus.

    My electricity bill is say $1,600 per annum for 2 people or about $800 pa pp. This of course, includes network charges.

    There being 23 million people in our country at about $800 per head means that our annual residential electricity bill is 18.4 Billion Dollars.

    But of that amount the scam bonus is 15.9% or $ 2.93 Billion and spread over the 23 million is $127 pp pa. Benefit to the public Nil.

    Please, please don't call this "waste" as someone has our money and is putting it to good use; for them.

    This money has been misappropriated .

    It may even help pay for a new jetty on the Sydney harbour foreshore, indirectly of course.

    All of this is only residential power and industry and small business provide their own contributions to the rip off.

    This is very rough but I hope it goes some way to highlighting the abuse of our basics services by people in positions of TRUST.

    KK

    80

  • #
    pat

    4 Sept: Australian: Jennifer Oriel: Green-dreaming Liberals sleep walking to their doom
    Rational energy policy has been sacrificed in a bipartisan celebration of green utopia. Even for those of us who support the idea of a clean, green economy, the major parties’ endorsement of international targets that punish free-world people is unacceptable. The continued support for such targets at a time of unprecedented Western debt borders on immoral.

    In Australia, average living standards this year are lower than they were in 2011 and we have the highest electricity prices in the world. We have plentiful coal ­reserves to rescue our electricity market and restore light and heat to pensioners’ homes. But the green-left cheers as the mines close and society’s most vulnerable suffer the consequences. It is utterly indefensible…

    The self-declared progressives of the Labor and Liberal parties have not developed a viable solution for soaring electricity costs. Rather, their approach to energy policy is broadly consistent with the Progressive Alliance, which lists the UN’s Agenda 2030 for Sustainable Development and the Paris climate accord as key international mechanisms for delivering its “socio-ecological transformation”.
    The Turnbull government endorsed Agenda 2030 and ratified the Paris Agreement in 2015…

    Australia’s major parties are becoming uncompetitive on energy policy. They are pricing themselves out of the electoral market.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/jennifer-oriel/greendreaming-liberals-sleep-walking-to-their-doom/news-story/4273ea8e1f244018c4806c43a8c55955

    70

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      Australias major parties are becoming incomnpatible with Australia.

      Time to rout both parties at the next election, so neither can hold power.

      The only way to teach kiddies with poor behaviour is to deprive them of their favourite toy….power.

      40

      • #
        Dennis

        The numbers are on our side and I believe that most Australians have had more than enough of the two look alike UN representatives.

        Former PM Howard recently commented that in recent times the general voter support for the big two has slipped from the traditional 80 per cent down to 60 per cent. Therefore 40 per cent of voters at this time do not support Labor Green or Liberal National. But most of the loss is Greens and Liberals with the latter supporters going to smaller conservative parties.

        In 2010 there was a hung parliament and Labor had to recruit outside support to form a minority alliance to form government again.

        The next election could be an even worse outcome for the Coalition than Labor experienced in 2010, but Labor probably wont gain much.

        So with luck and alert voters who are looking for change for the better a coalition of the willing might form the next federal government.

        It’s the only outcome that would shock the major parties and force them to abandon their foreign instructors.

        40

    • #
      Dennis

      According to the OECD assessment of 38 member countries in 1995/96 Australia was in 13th position or ranking of Standard of Living.

      In 2006/07 we were in a much improved 8th position, and Prime Minister Howard said in 2007 that Australians had never been better off.

      When the Abbott led Coalition Government replaced the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd Labor Governments our position had declined to 12th place as reported by OECD in 2015 – noting that there is a timing lag in data gathering.

      The only thing the Coalition can rightly claim credit for is that in 2014 they announced the budget crisis handed over by Labor in September 2013 and that if the borrowing and spending of the Labor years continued debt would be $670 billion by 2017. Debt is just on $500 billion now.

      20

  • #
    pat

    who would take on the task of fact-checking the following, which includes so many FakeCAGW claims, my head was swimming?

    adoring audience wildly applauds it all.
    ends on a high(?) – with a dirty coal comment:

    2 Aug: AUDIO: ABC: Science Show: Robyn Williams: The path to zero carbon energy
    We are told we need to decarbonise our energy systems by 2050 to avoid pushing the Earth’s temperature up by more than 2 degrees. More than 2 degrees will see very bad consequences for food production, weather conditions, water supply, natural ecosystems and in some places, the ability for humans to even exist.
    The uptake of clean generating capacity is happening faster than expected. Even so, are we on track? Will we make it? What are the obstacles and where is the hope? We join Robyn Williams and a panel of energy experts at Brisbane’s World Science Festival in March 2017.

    Guests:
    Peta Ashworth, Professor in Sustainable Energy Futures, University of Queensland, Brisbane QLD
    Kobad Bhavnagri, Head of Australia for Bloomberg New Energy Finance
    Alan Finkel, Chief Scientist of Australia
    Ian Gardner,Director, Ove Arup & Partners Ltd London
    Graham Winkelman, Practice Lead for Climate Change, BHP Melbourne
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/the-path-to-zero-carbon-energy/8852218

    not satisfied with FlimFlam having a half-hour on ABC-TV:

    22 Aug: ABC TV: Catalyst: Can Seaweed Save the World?
    Professor Tim Flannery investigates how seaweed is helping to save the world – from growing the foods of the future, helping clean polluted water and even combating climate change.
    Growing seaweed is now a ten billion dollar a year global industry. Tim travels to Korea to see some of the biggest seaweed farms in the world and meets the scientists who are hoping to create a seaweed revolution here in Australia.

    theirABC gives him another hour? hey, what does it matter that his credibility was destroyed repeatedly years ago?

    31 Aug: ABC Big Ideas: Can seaweed save the planet?
    Massive seaweed farms in the world’s oceans could sequester vast amounts of CO2. Not only that, we can remove toxic pollutants from soil: by steam cleaning it. And the planet may well have over 8 billion people living on it within a decade, but no one has to go hungry. Tim Flannery has a plan to power, clean, and feed the world. He tells Paul Barclay about it.
    Recorded at the Byron Writers Festival 5 August 2017.

    btw, how come theirABC moderates almost every puboic event in the country?

    50

    • #
      pat

      re the ABC Science Show program.
      one of the “experts” claims there are Teslas everywhere in Hong Kong – they all want Teslas!

      Hong Kong population: 7.347 million (2016); Area: 2,754 km²

      10 July: Quartz: SLAMMING THE BRAKES: Nobody in Hong Kong wants a Tesla anymore
      by Echo Huang
      Hong Kong has long been one of Tesla’s biggest markets, but it may not be for much longer—not a single newly purchased Tesla model was registered in April, according to data from Hong Kong’s transport department…

      The plunge in interest in Tesla cars came after the government eliminated tax breaks for electric-vehicle (EV) owners, a policy that went into effect on April 1 and is expected to last until March next year. Now, the city has capped the tax waiver at HK$97,500 ($12,500) on private EVs, and is only applicable to first-time owners. There were 2,939 first-time Tesla registrations in March just before the new tax rules kicked in, around five times that of the number in February…

      As a result, it now costs HK$925, 500 ($118,400) for a Tesla Model S 60, compared to HK$570,000 ($72,900) before the new tax policy—giving it little or no price advantage over a Mercedes-Benz…

      First-time registrations don’t exactly equal to sales, but is nevertheless a useful proxy as the car needs to be registered in order to run on the road in Hong Kong, said (paywall) the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the story. Hong Kong had 11,004 EVs in use as of May this year, including privately owned and public transport vehicles, according to Hong Kong’s Environmental Protection Department…
      https://qz.com/1024886/nobody-in-hong-kong-wants-a-teslanasdaq-tslaanymore/

      20

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Don’t invest in Flannery’s seaweed farm. You will wind up with nothing in your hand but some rotting seaweed.

      30

  • #
    pat

    great – let’s subsidise everyone rather than fix the problem:

    3 Sept: news.com.au: NSW energy package to ease burden
    The NSW government will introduce an energy relief package providing increased rebates and discounts on energy efficient appliances for households and businesses struggling with surging power prices.
    Premier Gladys Berejiklian said households could save hundreds of dollars a year off energy bills as a result of the package, set to be available to about 900,000 households.

    Announced on Sunday in western Sydney, the package includes increases to low income household and family energy rebates, concession cardholder discounts and small business concessions.
    “We are going to take care of you during this time when energy prices are going up,” NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian told reporters in western Sydney on Sunday.

    The reforms will encourage households to use less energy by rewarding consumers who purchase energy efficient lighting and air conditioning…
    “We’re going to make sure we do everything we can to ease the cost of living pressures,” Ms Berejiklian said.
    “It will potentially help every single household.”

    However, opposition leader Luke Foley said the package was too little too late…READ ALL
    http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/nsw-energy-package-to-ease-burden/news-story/1865fe03c53228a558caff628a9c4496

    30

  • #
    el gordo

    The fingerprint of the 210 year cycle is found everywhere, we should be able to see the signal more clearly this time.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031018207005214

    30

  • #
    Analitik

    For anyone deluded enough to the believe that China will force adoption of renewables through continuing state sponsorship of white elephant wind & PV farms, CSP, UHV transmission links, read the following.
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-03/china-battles-impossible-trinity

    This also applies to them funding absurdities like an Australian inland high speed railway (anyone heard much about CLARA, of late?) not to mention all their ghost cities with accompanying unused support infrastructure.

    30

  • #
  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    Just suffering through an interview on their ABC with a BOM scientist , the usual he opened his mouth and out came the air raid siren , more people killed by heat than cold , worse cyclones etc etc .

    30

  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    Actually wierd bloke , wouldn’t look presenter in the eye .

    30

  • #
  • #
    Dennis

    Surely Labor governments would not approve offshore wind farms, after implementing UN Agenda 21 and creating so many offshore marine Parks and prohibiting commercial, and in many places private fishing?

    30

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      They would sell it as part of “the cause” and try and convince people the fish were cheering the wind farm builders on…..

      Apparently tourism in marine parks or oil drilling rigs ( that provide jobs) arent ok, but sinking dirty great foundations for wind towers that make their Socialist Collaborator owners big bucks, are Ok.

      Some ideologies are apparently more equal than others….

      30

  • #
    pat

    huh!

    4 Sept: Guardian: Carbon tax could wipe out polluters’ profits in pursuit of Paris targets
    To achieve climate agreement’s limit of 2C rise, pricing will have to increase to more than $100 a tonne, says Schroders
    by Richard Partington
    More than $1.5tn (£1.2tn) in company profits worldwide could be erased by taxes required to meet the Paris climate agreement, according to analysis by Schroders.

    In a stark warning to investors to back more sustainable companies, the fund management group said total earnings of 12,500 global companies could fall by 20% were the world to limit itself to the 2C temperature rise target agreed in Paris through higher taxes. Schroders found prices in emissions trading would need to rise to “well over” $100 a tonne of CO2e from current levels, about $5, to encourage the move away from fossil fuels on the scale that was needed.

    The analysis points to the immense scale of the challenge to curb the effects of climate change and comes as a warning to intensive users of natural resources that their profits are at risk. Such companies, including those in the construction, steel and commodity chemicals sectors, could see profits fall by 80%.

    Andy Howard, the head of sustainable research at Schroders, said investors should focus on picking companies that could survive in a low-carbon economy. “The debate about whether climate change is something we should be worrying about has passed. You need to do something and here’s what it is, and it helps to pick relative beneficiaries,” he said…

    The economist and Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz and the former World Bank chief economist Nicholas Stern were among experts who said governments needed to tackle polluting industries with a tax on carbon dioxide at $40-$80 a tonne by 2020.
    Many economists have described climate change as an example of market failure, as unbounded capitalism has so far failed to curb rising pollution…
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/04/emissions-carbon-tax-profits-polluters-paris-targets

    00

  • #
    pat

    before Frydenberg’s article even begins, the Tele has a related link:

    ‘Investment in clean energy means more supply and lower prices’

    can’t tell u who it’s by, etc., because it’s behind a paywall, but it’s positioning on the page surely undermines the case Frydenberg is trying/pretending to make, i would have thought.

    why not place the link further down, Tele, which is where I found the Credlin link?

    4 Sept: Daily Telegraph: Josh Frydenberg: Shorten’s seven deadly sins equal an energy crisis
    The Labor Party used to pride itself as the champion of the blue-collar worker. But today Labor’s climate policies leave it a mere shadow of its former self. Bill Shorten protests saying “I’m not some rampant greenie who thinks there’s no place for fossil fuels in our energy mix”, but his seven deadly sins show the reality is very different.
    The consequence of Labor’s energy policies is fewer jobs, lower growth, higher electricity prices and a less stable system…READ ALL
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/josh-frydenberg-shortens-seven-deadly-sins-equal-an-energy-crisis/news-story/dcf7fe713dae36d8abf5d6918bc32054

    3 Sept: Daily Telegraph: Peta Credlin: What the energy policy debate needs is some perspective
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/what-the-energy-policy-debate-needs-is-some-perspective/news-story/9539472626a46c21e858d958f97cc62e

    10

  • #
    Mark M

    If we only had listened?

    In a New Zealand newspaper 1912:

    (C)OAL CONSUMPTION AFFECTING CLIMATE.
    RODNEY AND OTAMATEA TIMES, WAITEMATA AND KAIPARA GAZETTE, 14 AUGUST 1912

    https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ROTWKG19120814.2.56.5

    Wait!

    Century old map throws new doubt on climate change sea level claims.

    “A new book on the history of New Zealand has inadvertently stirred the climate change debate by revealing a near zero sea level increase over the past century.

    The book, The Great Divide, includes a 100 year old map of Cloudy Bay lagoons in New Zealand, drafted back in 1912 to show the location of 20 kilometres of canals dug with wooden spades by ancient Maori.

    However, when the 1912 map is shown alongside a satellite image of the same location from Google Earth, it reveals not only the startling accuracy of the original map (drafted at a time when aerial photography did not exist) but also a stunning lack of Pacific Ocean encroachment on the narrow shoal linking the lagoons to the sea.

    The shoal is comprised of rock and pebbles, making it an ideal weathervane for sea level increase as it’s less prone to erosion than shifting sands.”

    http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz/Investigate/2725/old-map-throws-doubt-on-climate-change-sea-level-claims/

    30

  • #

    Sad to hear of the passing of Walter Becker overnight.

    Steely Dan were nowhere near as popular here in Oz as they were in the U.S. and only one of their hits made it onto the National Charts.

    I have five of their albums, and it is surprising just how good they were.

    Originally, the two main guys, Walter, along with Donald Fagen had their roots in jazz, and that was never more obvious than when they did a cover of the Duke Ellington, Bubber Miley song from 1927, East St Louis Toodle-oo from the Pretzel Logic album from 1974, highlighting the guitar work of Walter Becker, and how it made it sound like Bubber Miley’s trumpet, an amazing song, and probably one of my favourite Steely Dan songs.

    Music Special – East St Louis Toodle-oo – Vale Walter Becker

    Tony.

    30

  • #
    pat

    how come the Greens don’t demand the end to all our fossil fuel exports?

    if they were really concerned about CO2 emissions, they would but, of course, we know it is all a pretense:

    4 Sept: Guardian: Greens warn Labor not to do clean energy deal that protects coal power
    Opposition told to be wary of doing a Finkel review deal with the Coalition that would prolong the life of coal plants
    by Katharine Murphy
    The Greens are attempting to warn Labor off doing a deal with the Turnbull government on a new clean energy target, saying a Finkel handshake could trigger a “valley of death” for short-term investment in renewables, and lock in coal, rather than stranding it.
    With parliament due to resume on Monday, and with the Turnbull government inching closer to finally resolving and outlining its energy policy, the Greens climate change spokesman, Adam Bandt, will bring forward a bill to prolong and expand the existing renewable energy target scheme…

    “If Labor and Liberal agree on a clean energy target that includes coal but don’t include any mechanism to start closing coal-fired generators, it may well create a short-term valley of death for renewables,” Bandt was due to say on Monday…
    He will say a bipartisan deal could create the conditions for the construction of a new coal-fired plant during the “valley of death” when renewable investment pauses between the cessation of the existing renewable energy target, and the beginning of the clean energy target…

    There has been talk over the past few weeks that the Turnbull government could seek to extend the life of the Liddell coal-fired power station, which is due to close in 2022, to keep more base load in the system…

    With the Finkel policy still unresolved, and with high power prices creating ongoing political angst, this week, the government will push ahead with legislation to abolish limited merits review – a system of regulation that has the practical effect of inflating power prices for consumers…
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/sep/04/greens-warn-labor-not-to-do-clean-energy-deal-that-protects-coal-power

    00

  • #
    pat

    Plan to ramp up coal power to avoid more blackouts
    The Australian-22 hours ago
    A federal plan is under way to encourage more capacity at the nation’s biggest coal-fired power stations as the Turnbull government prepares for a report on …

    4 Sept: CarbonPulse: China ETS seen to have only marginal economic impact on coal generators
    Even the poorest performers among China’s coal-fired power generators are only likely to face minor costs from the national CO2 emissions trading scheme, according to analysts.

    BHP upbeat on ore, coal price outlook
    The Australian-21 hours ago
    BHP Billiton says prices of the nation’s two biggest exports — iron ore and coking coal — are expected to remain strong until at least the end of the year, in one …

    Macquarie says iron ore, coal prices to remain strong into 2018
    MINING.com-9 hours ago

    4 Sept: CarbonPulse: Australia set to revamp barren soil carbon method
    Australia on Monday proposed a revamp of its soil carbon initiative that the government once held high hopes for but that has yet to generate a single carbon credit.

    10

  • #
    pat

    3 Sept: RockfordRegisterStar Illinois: My View: Coal fleet critical to reliable power future in Illinois
    by John Cabello, State Representative (Republican)
    http://www.rrstar.com/opinion/20170903/my-view-coal-fleet-critical-to-reliable-power-future-in-illinois

    4 Sept: WheelingIntelligencer Editorial: All-of-the-Above Policy Is Vital
    For eight years, those of us in West Virginia, Ohio and a few other states tried in vain to make our fellow Americans understand that former President Barack Obama’s war on coal ought to be their concern as well as ours. It took the spotlight focused on Coal Country by then-candidate Donald Trump to make millions of Americans really think about where their electricity comes from.

    Now President Trump is engineering a a 180-degree turn away from what might well have been an energy disaster in this country.
    An Energy Department report suggests the government needs to do more to encourage construction and operation of all types of power plants — coal, nuclear and hydroelectric among them. Such action is needed to ensure the nation’s energy grid remains reliable.
    In other words, we may be turning to the true “all of the above” energy policy the nation needs…

    During the Obama years, virtually every agency of government seemed intent on shutting down coal-fired power plants and making it impossible to operate nuclear power stations. Instead, the priority — along with billions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies — was so-called “alternative energy” in the form of solar and wind power.
    Increased dependence on those types of generation makes the power grid less reliable and more expensive…

    It all was done in the name of preventing global warming. Yet, as scientists have pointed out, the net effect of drastic changes in how this country generates electricity will have virtually no power to forestall more climate change.

    Climate alarmists already have begun whipping up a frenzy of opposition to any suggestion the Obama policy ought to be altered in any way. What happens to tens of millions of Americans — including the poor and those on fixed incomes such as the elderly — if they are successful?

    Simply this: Electricity will become more and more expensive, putting an added squeeze on already strained budgets. Eventually, as fewer sources of 24/7 power are available, it may be a question as to whether the furnace will kick on in the dead of winter or the air conditioning will work when summer temperatures soar.

    And, of course, there is the effect on businesses and industries. Those using a lot of electricity and struggling to compete now may find themselves forced to shut down.

    All of this is avoidable, if policymakers heed the Energy Department report. An all-of-the-above energy policy, with due consideration for environmental concerns, is vital. It comes down to the simple common sense that, for eight years, was absent from Washington.
    http://www.theintelligencer.net/opinion/editorials/2017/09/all-of-the-above-policy-is-vital/

    60

  • #
    pat

    4 Sept: EconomicTimesIndia: Coal India gains 2% on good August numbers
    Shares of Coal IndiaBSE 3.38 % advanced over 2 per cent in early trade on Monday after the company on Friday said its production and that of its subsidiary companies stood at 102 per cent of targeted production at 37.63 million tonnes in August 2017 on a provisional basis…

    Chairman and Managing Director Gopal Singh said the miner registered a high growth rate of 28 per cent in output for FY17 over that in the last financial year, while the average rise in power demand stood at 10.3 per cent. Coal India is fully capable of fulfilling the coal demand in India, he said, adding that the company had plans to open new mines in the future…
    http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/coal-india-gains-2-on-good-august-numbers/articleshow/60357086.cms

    4 Sept: Hellenic Shipping: Coal India says efforts to buy coal mines in Australia in process
    The efforts to buy coking coal mines overseas by state-owned CIL in Australia are in process as the company looks to supplement the requirement of country’s metallurgical coal, the PSU said in a recent report.

    “Pursuant to the directives of the CIL board, initiatives for acquisition of coking coal assets, with particular focus on Australia being the prime destination for sourcing coking coal to India, are in process,” Coal India Ltd (CIL) said in an annual report of 2016-17.
    India’s dependence on imports is particularly heavy on coking coal which is an important ingredient in the steel making process.

    “As part of the preparedness towards acquisition initiatives, empanelment of merchant banker/investment banker has been done to render assistance in acquisition process,” the world’s largest coal miner said…ETC
    http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/coal-india-says-efforts-to-buy-coal-mines-in-australia-in-process/

    00

  • #
    Dennis

    The Australian newspaper

    DAVID CROWE
    Australians are at risk from a shortfall in baseload power that could drive up electricity bills, a new report says.

    10

  • #
    Will Janoschka

    Irma: Currently 943 +/- Hpa a A Solid cat 4 @ 135mph winds… Forecasted in INCREASE in strength!

    :-( sarc} Only a 100 hPA (1.5psi) vacuum cleaner! How much ocean can that ‘hand-held puppy’ suck up in a week? {/sarc :-)

    10

    • #
      Will Janoschka

      With Irma: All of that airborne liquid water, not vapor, is rotating with a peripheral velocity of 220 kph and has much higher angular momentum (destructive power) than any tornado. Like wind farms, this power is generated by ‘borrowing’ angular momentum from the Earth’s spin! Is this the latest fad in fake renewable power?

      12