JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Climate Institute runs out of money

The The Climate Institute is a private think tank set up in 2005. It got about $2m a year back in the heyday of climate panic. Today Planet Earth is still about to collapse, but it’s not important enough for the team to keep working without a salary. Amazing what someone, who really believes in what they do, can achieve with 1% of what they had.

No more propaganda surveys from them then:

Icon, Surveys, Polls, Magnifying glass, propaganda, spot the weak activist survey.

Climate Institute announces closure, citing lack of funding to continue

After a decade of climate advocacy work, climate change research organisation the Climate Institute has announced it will be closing in late June.

The non-profit’s survival has until now been dependent on donations, and it has cited a lack of funding as the reason for its closure.

Best known for its Climate of the Nation reports, the organisation also helped, among other things, expand the renewable energy target in 2008.

The Climate Institute could be relied upon to pay for trite motherhood style surveys to score meaningless headlines about how 110% of Australian believe we have a climate.

My past posts:

As I said — their surveys were designed to get one kind of answer:

Obviously The Climate Institute don’t want real answers, which they must know would be devastating. They won’t ask how much people want to pay out their own pocket to fix the climate. They won’t ask people to rank “climate change” against all the other issues they care about. They won’t ask people if Climate Change is a scam, a con, or a scheme to make the green industry rich (a year ago a US poll showed 31% were happy to call climate change a “total hoax“). Things don’t get more skeptical than that, but if surveyors don’t ask, they’ll never know.

These surveys never ask if the public thinks windmills will slow storms or make floods less likely. There is a good reason for that…

 

 

 

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Climate Institute runs out of money, 9.4 out of 10 based on 73 ratings

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192 comments to Climate Institute runs out of money

  • #
    crakar24

    Rather ironic Hazelwood lasted longer than they did, the very same power station it helped to close.

    110

    • #
      TdeF

      Hazelwood is not closing because it is obsolete. It is not closing because it is ‘old’. It is flat out 24/7.
      It is not closing because it is the ‘dirtiest’ power station in Australia unless CO2 is ‘dirty’.

      It is closing because the owners say it cannot make a dollar profit in the most expensive electricity market in the world.
      This is death by legislation and nothing to do with the climate.
      There is no free market in Australia for electricity or the biggest, cheapest power supply in the country would not be closing.

      It is closing because Daniel Andrews wants it closed. Why else would he increase coal prices 300%? Why else would he stop his secret $500Million payout to keep it going.
      No ‘cleaner’ NSW black coal power plant will start up. No one will dare.
      Weatherill demands Pelican Point generate electricity. They say they have lost $15million last year and refuse.

      This is politicians closing power stations and crying for the blackouts, the lost jobs, the terrible tragedy and blaming the owners and operators. This is the assailant blaming the victim.

      476

      • #

        TdeF mentions this:

        It is closing because the owners say it cannot make a dollar profit in the most expensive electricity market in the world.

        Refer to my Comment 7 and note the cost for Victoria.

        At the moment, Hazelwood is running all eight units, delivering 33050MWH into the Victorian grid each day, probably supplying also South Australia, maybe Tasmania, and Southern NSW.

        So, at the minimum cost of around $30/MWH, then that’s just under $1 Million a day, and if that keeps up till the plant closes at the end of the Month, that’ll come to around $30 Million.

        They’ll be making a profit this Month, I’ll bet.

        Tony.

        133

        • #
          TdeF

          Yes, they increased their charges too, as a farewell gift to themselves. Clearly they are selling everything they can produce, revelling in the missing 5GW on the East Coast. Why not? No more maintenance, no future and no one objected, so they will extract every dollar before they close. Even Andrews will be counting his cash at $300 a ton. In a tight market, they should be able to extort money, but it is not a fair and open market. Everyone buys wind power if it is available at 1/3 of the cost, taking the cream out of the market and making budgeting impossible.

          I am hoping that Engie is cunning as a corporation and will play the government on a break, as they are doing with Pelican Point. Short of begging, Weatherill will have to subsidize what he is trying to close as Andrews has been forced to do. An irony really. I have read that Weatherill’s subsidy of Port Pirie and Whyalla is somewhere near $600 million a year, maybe much more just to keep them open. Who knows what Andrews is forced to pay Alcoa to keep the jobs going with 3/4 of the aluminium pots frozen solid.

          The puzzle is why Labor is desperate to cripple the owners. You can only think Union leaders have long memories and want their power back and to punish those companies brave enough to invest in Government utilities. It’s a long time since Unions leaders cared about jobs and wages except their own.

          173

          • #
            TdeF

            The problem is that it is our tax which is being used to prop up unprofitable companies to compensate for the money which is going into windmills. We the public are paying double for the climate and power fantasies of politicians. Once in our power bills and again in our taxation to prevent the closures.

            143

          • #

            TdeF,

            ENGIE owns the power station, and also owns the mine where the coal that is used as fuel for that plant comes from as well.

            If they own the mine, then they are using their own coal. How can the Victorian Government charge them $300 a ton for the coal that ENGIE already owns?

            It’s virtually the same with every other coal fired power plant in Australia, where the plant is constructed at the coal mine itself, and the plant owners own the coal mine as well.

            Tony.

            122

            • #

              From this, can you also now see how those costings for ‘new’ coal fired power plants get artificially inflated, and the meme gets spread.

              They add into their costing the cost for coal at the current going rate, and also the extra cost for transporting the coal to the plant, and a for typical large scale plant, you’re looking at 15,000 tonnes+ per day.

              If the plant is situated at the site of the mine, and the plant owner also owns the coal mine, then they are consuming their own coal.

              Tony.

              173

              • #
                TdeF

                Also Tony, the CEO of ENGIE says Hazelwood is uneconomic. He also says Pelican Point cost $15Million last year to run. Can you explain why this would be the case, because Hazelwood is closing in the next two weeks simply because it is losing money. I would love a good explanation if the power station is running at 100% 24/7.

                72

              • #
                TdeF

                http://www.minerals.org.au/resources/coal/taxes_and_royalties

                This is before Andrews 300% increase. In fact Australians are so ignorant of how much mining pays in State Taxes, they were prepared to believe International companies were stealing coal and gas and gold and paying no tax. Two years ago mining companies and that includes Power companies paid $65Billion in total taxes, including of course PAYE taxes but all the state taxes, rents, penalties. The only real concession was the roads tax on diesel to pay for roads as the mining companies argued they built their own, used their own and gave them to the Commonwealth and should not be penalized for using them.

                111

              • #
                TdeF

                Tony, this this article.

                http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-23/victoria-to-raise-250m-by-increasing-brown-coal-royalties/7352526

                according the the Age Victoria Treasurer

                “The royalty is paid … for the use and extraction the resource the mine operator manages on behalf of the community, and this increase will basically ensure Victorians get their fair share,”

                Even the Age headline says it all “Victoria’s own mining tax to triple as treasurer gouges brown coal for revenue”

                You pay Royalties for digging up the land. Nothing to live on it, nothing to grow crops on it. This goes back to the Eureka stockade where people were charged for looking for gold. After the deadly riot in Ballarrat, they were charged for what they found, if anything.

                100

            • #
              TdeF

              Quick answer. Federation. In Federation ownership of all minerals was vested in the State Government.

              That is why Gillard had such a problem with her ‘mining tax’, claiming miners were not paying for the resources. She could only manage a ‘super tax’ on ‘super profits’, not a resource rent tax on minerals as that would be unconstitutional. You may own the land but you have to pay for everything under the surface which belongs to the government, at a rate they decide.
              Farming or home owning is different. It was all to do with Victoria and the rich gold deposits. So education, mining, police, health all remain state.

              61

            • #
              OriginalSteve

              Speaking of making money for nothing….isnt that a Dire Straits song?

              http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-10/energy-retailers-making-millions-off-solar-feed-in-rates/8342254

              “It’s been called the great solar scam: households investing in solar energy and feeding electricity back to the grid for just a fraction of what it’s worth, and sometimes for free.”

              30

        • #
          TdeF

          Also Tony, at $30 a MWhr, we the public have to pay $89 a MWhr to buy certificates. So we are paying $129/MWhr, $89 of which goes directly to windmills companies to provide no power. It means there is a real power shortage as no middle man pays $129 when he can pay $30 for the same thing.

          71

        • #
          Rod Stuart

          Tony

          supplying also South Australia, maybe Tasmania

          I think you will find that Tassie is saving up all the water it can, using run-of-river to advantage, and running TVPS full bore.
          After all, when Hazelwood comes off, the Vic price will jump, and for Tassie that means there’s gold in them thar Victoria hills.

          60

        • #
          Tonyh

          Nice little app available you may already have it, which has a great active picture of what power is going where and you can then bore down to power produced by whom and costs.
          http://www.reddolphin.com.au
          Unfortunately at this point apple only.

          20

    • #
      turnedoutnice

      Climate prediction is a form of Corporate Gambling, except the bets are placed by taxpayers and the winnings go to the Corporations…..

      41

  • #
    el gordo

    Victorians deserves to be blacked out or perhaps the staff at Sustainability Victoria need a lesson in ethical behaviour.

    ‘A survey of Victorians has found 91 per cent believe humans contribute to climate change and one third of respondents rank it as one of the top three most important issues facing the state.

    ‘The independent research commissioned by Sustainability Victoria involved interviews with more than 3,300 people.

    ‘Only seven per cent of respondents said there was no such thing as climate change or that natural processes caused it.’

    Daniel Andrews

    72

    • #
      crakar24

      So the leader of Victoria is now formulating policy based on a survey of 3,300? whats that 1% of the population? Jesus F&^&%^%$ing wept, this is a bad as SA, how could the “Land of milk and honey” fallen so far?

      102

    • #
      PeterS

      What the dumb public don’t get is it doesn’t matter whether runaway man-made global warming is real or not. Australia apparently is the only country in the world that’s trying to save the planet by deliberately forcing coal fired power stations to be financially untenable. Every other country of significance is doing the opposite. Are we so dumb we don’t realise the coal we are exporting in huge amounts is going to coal fired power stations all of the world, which are increasing in numbers significantly? People probably will eventually wake up to the stupidity of the situation but not before we are on the brink of a financial and economic collapse, if we are lucky.

      164

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Well, our most popular show is “Home and Away”…..

        My hope is the public wake up….it will only hit home when somesones kid dies on an operating table when the power goes out…on that day Herr Andrews will have no where to hide.

        Until the dopey illiterate bulk of Victorians wake up, and I mean seriously wake up, then they will continue to be mentally emaciated, but hey, they all have smart phones so that means they know everything….

        112

    • #
      Analitik

      independent research commissioned by Sustainability Victoria

      Sure

      10

  • #
    ColA

    Watch the troughers migrate to a new trough!

    God I wish someone would drain our swamp!

    153

    • #
      el gordo

      We lack a charismatic leader and our career politicians have the herd mentality, but more importantly we need to change perceptions of climate change on the ground.

      The propaganda has been intense, through the MSM and the Climate Institute, so any ordinary person who reads this might be inclined to agree with the majority or risk becoming a social pariah.

      https://siliconpaddock.community/2017/01/nine-in-10-rural-australians-believe-they-are-feeling-effects-of-climate-change/

      43

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        “Sacred cows” make the best hamburgers….

        53

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          Why would you want to put any part of a cow in a hamburger? Real Hamburgers are made from bits of a pig. Just don’t ask which bits …

          72

          • #
            greggg

            Exactly. Beef burger. Lamb burger. Ham burger. Roo burger. Whatever. (It annoys me that so many people refer to them as hamburgers when they are not made of ham!)

            60

            • #
              Bob

              But “hamburger” was not called that because it contained ham. The name comes from the German town of Hamburg.

              90

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Urban myth, that is, young Bob.

                They were invented in the USA, when some bright spark put a hot piece of steak between two pieces of a bread bun.

                Have a look at: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/09/why-a-hamburger-is-called-a-hamburger

                If you want a hamburger, in Hamburg today, you have to go to McDonalds, or Berger King.

                00

              • #
                Graeme No.3

                Rubbish Rereke. Fancy you falling for an internet rumour. For the record softening steak under the saddle was the supposed start of Steak Tartere, but that is another myth. Certainly the nomads on the Steppes of Asia used this as a method of softening meat, but the connection with either Americans or French is remote.

                I personally choose to believe that the hamburger was invented in a small all night shop in High Street St. Kilda in Melbourne in 1970. It was run by 2 women, a motherly type and another who wore a sailor’s cap over crew cut red hair, sailor type tattoos and smoked cigars. The walls and ceilings were plastered with posters, mostly of young women who had decided to ride bicycles through the tulip fields of Holland unencumbered with clothes. There were one or two ‘political’ ones e.g. Vote for Guy Fawkes – the only man to enter Parliament with honest Intentions.
                The secret was beer in the mince, with the herbs,onions and garlic.

                10

    • #
      CC Reader

      It is the same the world over. Victoria=California=Auckland. The primary problem must be caused by the oceans! Heat=SaltAir=Dehydration=Brain Shrinkage=AGW Religion. This brings me to my last point:
      :Question:What is the difference between Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and the Progressive Religion?
      Answer: The first three build their places of worship using their own money.

      70

  • #
    mem

    I think you will find that the polling you refer to was push pull polling aimed at achieving a specific answer that met our socialist government’s objective.

    132

  • #

    ooh weird.

    World will be less interesting without Bill

    46

  • #
    Mark

    But they’ll hang around ’til June to ensure the coffers are completely empty…

    22

  • #

    This same climate institute told us that renewables would be cheaper than coal fired power.

    Okay then, remember back in 2012 when Joanne kindly gave me a Guest Post at this link:

    A nation still drawing 18,000MW in it’s sleep can’t go solar…

    I explained the typical Australian Load Curve and how, at around 3AM to 5AM, Australia is still consuming around 18,000MW of power, even while we are all tucked up asleep in bed. I also mentioned that the only power plants running at that time are those coal fired power plants which never shut down.

    Okay then, what you may think has this got to do with the Climate Institute telling us renewables are cheaper than coal fired power?

    Do this simple exercise.

    This is the link to the AEMO site detailing power consumption and cost on a daily basis.

    When the site opens, the first thing you see is the data for NSW. The dark coloured line is for the price, and the light colured line is for power consumption, and you can see how similar it is to the one I used in that original Post I mentioned above.

    Okay then, here’s the exercise I want you to do.

    Just hover your mouse over the low point there, and for NSW, that is at 3.30AM. Note the cost for power at that time, and remember, only those coal fired plants are running. So, here for NSW it’s $30.17/MWH.

    Now click on the tabs at the top for each new State, Queensland, $26.69/MWH, Victoria, $27.9/MWH, and that’s the main coal fired power States.

    South Australia, (no coal fired power) $33.91/MWH, (and keep in mind most of that would be the cheap ‘stuff’ from Victoria, mainly Hazelwood now it’s running flat out, via the Interconnector, as the bottom fell out of wind supply yesterday) and Tasmania, (no coal fired power, Hydro tapping out, so just those expensive diesels and expensive gas fired plants) $87.71/MWH.

    Hmm, surely now, coal fired power couldn’t be cheap because that Climate Council told us it was so expensive. Just compare each low cost with the current cost or the spike cost for each State.

    Oh, and also, add up all the power consumption totals and what do you get for the absolute minimum power consumption for all Australia at that 3.30AM mark.

    17,748MW.

    Hmm! And five years ago I quoted 18,0000.

    So much for power consumption steadily falling as the Climate Council also told us.

    Tony.

    162

  • #
    David Maddison

    Look at one of the pictures Their ABC uses of Hazelwood at the link below. Smoke is coming out of one stack, no doubt to “prove” how “dirty” the power station is. This photo must have been made as a boiler was being started because as demonstrated in the pics of Hazelwood I recently posted and commented upon by Tony, even when each unit is running at max capacity there is only a faint wisp of smoke. The boilers are 53 years old. Modern ones would be smokeless.

    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-03/hazelwood-power-station-in-victoria-to-close/7987018?pfmredir=sm

    102

    • #
      David Maddison

      You have to open the box “What will happen when the power plant closes?” to see the picture.

      52

    • #

      The really funny thing in all of this is that at that site David linked to it says this:

      French energy company ENGIE says station no longer economically viable

      The why oh why is ENGIE currently running all 8 units at their maximum to deliver all the power it can manage if it is so ‘not economically viable’?

      Tony.

      141

      • #
        Dennis

        Which begs the question: what is the compensation package offered for closure?

        51

      • #
        TdeF

        Why has the Victorian government paid $500Million to the owners just to stay open? Why did they need the money? What does the biggest, cheapest single supplier close because they are uneconomic. This was the question which drove me to the RET. The other question is how much these windmills and power transmissions lines are costing the SA government. The answer? Nothing.

        70

  • #
    OriginalSteve

    Maybe its time to write to all MPs and explain the relaity to them so thye can never say they werent told….

    My rather capable aunt who runs her own company and lives in rural victoria , has a very low opinion of Herr Andrews and the rotting of the CFA ( Country Fire Authority ) through unionizing it….I cant repeat her thoughts here, but recognizes the creeping paralysis of Victorias “Death by Socialism” as the main problem….

    82

    • #
      David Maddison

      I did write to my MP, a Liberal shadow minister for renewables etc. a letter to that effect but he doesn’t bother reading emails.

      Hi Xxxx,

      I know you don’t read emails from the Deplorables who voted for you or they are not passed onto you by your staff but I am just copying you on my submission to the Finkel inquiry. I would feel guilty if I didn’t. At least you won’t be able to say “you didn’t know” about the issues raised.

      Kind regards,

      131

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Going broke… It’s no wonder it takes money from the taxpayers to keep the climate change ship afloat. So much for climate change mitigation having any real support. :-(

    82

  • #
    Dennis

    A large number of earlier posts have disappeared?

    51

  • #
    • #
      el gordo

      “But we don’t know that yet, we need to continue to debate, continue the review and analysis.”

      Beautiful, now the debate begins in the MSM and the political arena.

      72

    • #
      David Maddison

      Notice how Their ABC calls him a “climate change denier” rather than, say, an objective assessor of the data.

      163

      • #
        el gordo

        The Washington Post has gone ballistic after Pruitt’s comment.

        80

        • #
          • #
            el gordo

            … and heads are exploding at The Atlantic.

            ‘It was a bright warm day in March, and while the clocks weren’t quite striking thirteen, something was awry. Scott Pruitt, the new chief of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, was rejecting the international scientific consensus about human-caused global warming.’

            91

        • #
          el gordo

          ‘Mr Sanders insisted that there was no debate to be had and he condemned Mr Pruitt’s stance.

          “The debate is over,” said the Vermont senator. “Something like 97 per cent of the scientists who have written peer-reviewed articles on the subject agree that it is human activity and CO2 emissions that are causing devastating problems already in the United States and around the world.”

          The Independent

          00

        • #
          el gordo

          ‘Kevin Trenberth, a senior scientist at the US National Center for Atmospheric Research, replied that Pruitt was “unqualified to run the EPA,” insisting that the planet’s warming “is primarily due” to carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels.’

          DW

          10

      • #
        bobl

        I love it but who is their Editor

        Scientists immediately criticised Mr Pruitt’s statement, saying it ignored a large body of evidence collected over decades that showed fossil fuel burning was the main factor in climate change.

        “We can’t afford to reject this clear and compelling scientific evidence when we make public policy. Embracing ignorance is not an option,” Ben Santer, climate researcher at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, said in a statement.

        The Editor misplaced and change one letter converting and A to an s and misplacing it – Let me fix it for them.

        A Scientist immediately criticised Mr Pruitt’s statement, saying it ignored a large body of evidence collected over decades that showed fossil fuel burning was the main factor in climate change.

        Last I looked Ben Santer wasn’t plural unless he succeeded in cloning himself

        10

  • #
    David Maddison

    Some questions and comments about Hazelwood.

    1) Would it be economically viable to upgrade it to super or ultrasupercritical technology so it uses less fuel. Minimising CO2 is of no concern, just economy of operation.

    2) Does anyone know if it will be mothballed properly or if it will be immediately destroyed? I suspect the latter.

    3) The average worker payout is a staggering $330,000. https://amp.theage.com.au/victoria/hazelwood-workers-being-briefed-by-french-bosses-on-power-station-switch-off-20161101-gsfzy2.html

    4) Can the owner Energie sue the government for deliberately targetting this particular enterprise with the specific objective of putting them out of business?

    5) How appropriate it is to be shut down on April Fool’s Day.

    6) Why can’t anyone in authority see the insanity in shutting it down?

    7) The deliberate destruction of Australia’s baseload power production is verging on treason.

    112

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      In answer to two of your questions NO, to upgrade to HELE would require a complete new boiler of much larger size. Different metals used for a start.
      Two: yes very appropriate that Hazelwood should shut on April the first, which from now on should be referred to in Victoria as
      Andrews the fool Day.

      112

    • #
      TdeF

      In the SMH, the article claims the cost of removing Hazelwood and ‘rehabilitiating’ the mine area will be $1.6Bn! Who is paying that? Plus the fact that the State Royalty stream from selling coal will stop dead.

      110

    • #
      PeterS

      Meanwhile India is building the equivalent power generation of over 100 Hazelwoods using coal fired power. Soon we might have to consider building a link to them for backup. Perhaps WA should at least consider it. That[‘s how stupid this country has become. We must be the only country that hates coal fired power stations so much we are willing to destroy them without building new ones to replace them for cheap and reliable base load power.

      80

      • #
        llew jones

        Perhaps the Indians have a more complete understanding of science than our scientifically illiterate climate “scientists” and politicians:

        Q: Why is carbon dioxide important?

        Quick Answer: Carbon dioxide is important because it is used in photosynthesis, a process that is necessary for the survival of life on Earth. Carbon dioxide is also a vital greenhouse gas that helps trap heat in the atmosphere, and it plays a key role in Earth’s carbon cycle.

        Oh dear is that true? We live in Australia and no one told us that. We know that carbon and dirty black stuff called coal is a vicious polluter that will kill our great, great, great grandchildren. CO2? I had to look it up. So CO2 that “vital gas” you talk about comes from carbon? Well I never. So what you are saying is that if we could only produce a bit more CO2 and put it up there we shouldn’t have to worry about all of us dying from lack of enough CO2 up there?

        How about nuclear and windmills and solar? No?…… You’re telling me they don’t produce any of that “vital” life sustaining, photosynthesis necessary, CO2? Well well I never. But then I’m just an Aussie.

        30

  • #
    David Maddison

    Since Hazelwood no longer needs its brown coal why not export it so someone else can burn it and make CO2 like we do for black coal?

    73

  • #
    David Maddison

    The forthcoming electricity crisis will be partly postponed because as baseload power is shut down electricity becomes more expensive causing industry to shut down which reduces electrical demand.

    111

    • #
      TdeF

      Plus the fact that the damage done by the recent blackouts is not easily repaired. 75% of the alumina pots at Portland were frozen solid. Also alumina refining is basically pure electrical energy, usually at night soaking up base load and nest to the power station. 90% of the value of aluminium metal is in the electricity, which is why it is so valuable for recycling.

      However as our electricity is now 10x the price of US electricity, Alumina refining makes no economic sense.

      110

      • #
        Dennis

        Another raw material (Bauxite) for export with no added value and related jobs for Australians.

        And taxes from the value adding businesses and their employees.

        50

      • #
        Dennis

        Another point all Australians should be aware of is the too high cost structure for manufacturing in Australia. According to a Fin Review article in 2015 the total cost per skilled worker here is per hour 50 per cent higher than for the same worker in the US.

        US per hour rounded off A$400 and Australia A$600 per worker by total average operating costs.

        A luxury motor yacht (Secret Harbour brand) designed and constructed in WA used to sell for a retail price of A$1.5 million depending on fit out, constructed in the US and imported the same yacht retails for A$900 thousand, as per an article in Club Marine magazine a few years ago shortly before a Sydney Boat Show.

        Manufacturing has become internationally uncompetitive here, I considered buying a business I had managed as a minor shareholder for many years, a well above industry average operating profit business, but looking at upgrading machinery, rising power costs, government regulation compliance costs and more, after completing a feasibility study we decided that the future was in offshore manufacturing, local warehousing and distribution only. So I retired instead.

        120

    • #
      Yonniestone

      David I’m fronting up at Spring st on Saturday 18th March, anyone else interested in coming is very welcome, the Latrobe Valley people would be godd to have on board too.

      50

      • #
        Annie

        Which group are you talking about Yonnie? I’m not clear who it is or what exactly is being said.

        30

        • #
          Yonniestone

          Sorry for sounding cryptic Annie, I’m following through with my promise of a public protest at parliament house Spring St, the people of Latrobe Valley affected by Hazelwood’s closure had a ‘Rally in the Valley’ march to voice their concerns, I think they’ll be a good example of what will happen when this insanity keeps occurring.

          40

      • #
  • #
    Robert Rosicka

    Not sure where I posted this but here it goes again .
    Elon Muskrat has told SA he could supply enough battery back up to keep the state going within 100 days of signing the contract or the jobs free .
    Josh Frydenberg is falling over himself with glee of the news .

    50

    • #
      Dennis

      Last time I checked the advertised cost of a Tesla Powerwall basic system with solar panels was $16,000.00 installed. The advertisement had a disclaimer that savings on electricity costs could not be guaranteed after costs. I assumed after interest on costs and future replacement costs were accounted.

      No doubt Tesla expect all taxpayers to contribute to their windfall profits if governments fall for their marketing hyperbole and puffery.

      The basic rule should be to let markets decide, no subsidising by government’s picking winners and losers by subsidising the winners.

      91

      • #
        Robert Rosicka

        Think of it Dennis a state that’s desperate , a federal govt trying to out green the greens and along comes a shyster snake oil salesman ! We’re all saved .

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      I guess it was only a matter of time before Elon discovered the rich pickings in our southern states.

      I’m sure he’ll find plenty of unemployed actors in Adelaide to do the cheering and high-fiving when the state makes it to a hundred days on billions of debt-dollars worth of lithium. Of course, he might prefer to use the cast of SpaceX…but I was thinking of the Actors Equity problems he might have with those SA unions if he doesn’t use local talent.

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        Robert Rosicka

        Rich pickings indeed , no way you could install enough battery back up for Adelaide / SA in 100 days .
        But then someone like Josh and Weatherdill ask just how long will it take not at all asking how much , because that’s irrelevant.

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          Willard

          Well considering Tesla installed large scale storage in California recently in less than 90 days I can’t see why not, by the way Elon is betting US$25 million that it will be done in 100 days how much are you betting to say it can’t Robert R?

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            Graeme No.3

            Willard:
            How much capacity was installed and for how much? The figures I found are for 80MWh and a likely $A41 million. That for a few minutes cover when turbines can deliver little for 3 days at a time.
            For a slightly less than gushing view try
            https://www.technologyreview.com/s/603531/tesla-just-added-a-huge-stack-of-batteries-to-the-california-power-grid/

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              Willard

              It isn’t about running a grid its intended to cover the peak for a short period of time, and as those peaks are often very expensive it makes financial sense, even a grid with 100% coal or gas would benefit now the battery price is competitive.

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                Graeme No.3

                It is funny that the grid didn’t need batteries before renewable came.

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                It is funny that the grid didn’t need batteries before renewable came.

                Oh laugh out loud!

                Tony.

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                James Bradley

                Seriously Willard?
                How would a full coal/gas energy grid benefit from batteries?
                Have a really good think before you answer…

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                FarmerDoug2

                Pumped hydro worked well till the greens blocked it. Doug

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                Graeme No.3

                Reference 16.2.1.1.5 about no replies. This is due to 2 reasons.

                The first is that there is no REPLY button on that comment.
                The second is why waste our time? You know nothing, you are not prepared to listen… you should change you avatar to Mr. Bean.

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              Analitik

              20MW, 80MWh
              https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jan/31/tesla-battery-farm-california-energy-elon-musk

              So Elron would have to install 5 times to capacity to meet his 100MW claim. I guess he is looking to a market for all the batteries that he contracted to purchase from Panasonic in their Gigafactory agreement. If he reckons it could be set up within 100 days (else it’d be free), demand for Powerpacks can’t be too great.

              His mate, Mike Cannon-Brookes (co-founder of Atlassian) who started this interchange is a typical software guy with no concept of physical systems outside server farms.

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            Annie

            Willard, I seem to have green-thumbed you accidently when I was shuffling around getting more comfortable. You can take it from me that it would have been a red thumb if I’d intended to respond! Blame a touch screen for it; a lot to be said for a mouse. :(

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              Willard

              Why would you Red thumb me Annie? Speak your mind, I can handle some feedback.

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                Annie

                I didn’t intentionally green thumb but neither would I have red thumbed, as I explained as I didn’t intend any response. I have my doubts about E Musk and his batteries!

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            mobihci

            li-ion battery banks for the grid, what a disaster waiting to happen. how does this musk guy manage to dupe so many people in positions of power..

            so, the cost of these units does not matter it seems, nor does the replacement cost.

            15000 homes for 4 hours, in real terms probably more like 2000 homes for 4 hours. for what, $40M worth of batteries every 10 years.

            this whole thing reminds me of the way stereo units were sold back in the days when china become heavily involved in manufacturing and flooding the market with cheap crap sold by expert salesmen who would say things like “here is a unit that has more power output at a tenth of the price” they would quote the PMPO or peak power output and directly compare against RMS root mean squared (the real continuous power output) without ever mentioning RMS.

            the solar/wind/battery life & performance are all being sold the same way, but because of the huge amount of money involved, the salemen dare not back down from the claims and why would they when they are protected by government. the politicians and most of the media, whether they are duped by it or not, actually encourage the lies.

            the amp thing sorted itself out as consumers become aware that their sony stereo couldn’t really put out 5.5KW of power! (probably a ploy by the japs to make people aware of the chinese sales pitch)

            the problem will be that the consumer awareness of the solar/wind/battery scam will come too late. with a stereo, you can put it down to experience and move on, but with power plants being closed down its whole different ballgame.

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            Robert Rosicka

            We are talking about installing 100 Mw of batteries in a third world state in a third world country , our work OHS restrictions and union activitys are a bit different to California.
            You obviously wet yourself with excitement when reading the article ( it was about batteries) but failed to notice the wriggle room comment about the 100 days .
            That amount of battery storage will supply power to how much of SA and for how long , in the highly unlikely event that they lose power that is .

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              Robert Rosicka

              But wait there’s more , for an extra dollar we’ll double the offer and throw in a set of steak knives absolutely free , just pay 100 million for postage and shipping .

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                Double your order of batteries and Elon will chuck in a marching band, a monorail, a hyperloop and a moon excursion (delivery dates flexible). Any warranty claims can be addressed to Mars.

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              Ross

              Musk must have a huge inventory of batteries to get rid of. It’s hard to imagine him being able to produce enough batteries, ship and install them in 100 days.
              Alternatively he knows he can’t do it but is prepared to use the “loss” as a big publicity stunt. ( With all the Govt grants he has had, it is really the US tax payers fronting up with the cost).

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                ROM

                Batteries are nothing more than another version of pumped storage.
                They fill exactly the same role as pumped storage which is a centralised system with a major central and therefore easily controlled generation system whilst batteries have the added complications of having to have a whole new grid network connections to harness all those multitude of small units.

                Plus instead of something as basic and innocuous environmentally as water based pumped storages, batteries have a whole bunch of high cost, and highly toxic metals and compounds in their construction.
                And unlike pumped storages which have a well known turbine pump and dam construction technology to maintain and whose economic life time even with a high cycle situation, that can be measured in many decades, battery life is only measured in a few years, usually a good deal less than a decade with the greater the number of cycles then shorter the battery life.

                Plus, unlike batteries there is no end of the economic life disposal problems with pumped storage of just about every type .

                So just look at the economics and usability and reliability and economics of pumped storages around the world and you will soon get the message that pumped storages are generally of a low capacity for power generation to back up the so called renewable energy systems and only viable in a very, very limited number of highly specific situations.

                The rest of the attempts to create economic versions of pumped storages around the world have generally been both an economic and power generating disaster.

                And it is very much a case of Ditto double times over with batteries whatever the sizes or situations or grid size or industrial size or domestic size, none of the battery designs are or will be economic propositions for a very long time into the foreseeable future particularly when it comes to efficient use of energy and the availability of energy generation resources.

                And of course batteries are and will be utterly useless if common sense once again appears and we get on with building the very high temperature steam Ultra critical, High efficiency coal fired generator units as China and India and SE Asians and a few African nations and even the USA once again in the next few years are now doing or about to do that emit even less of that nefarious CO2 [ sarc/] over their complete construction and lifetime generation fuel use and emissions than does any so called renewable energy system when the construction and building emissions and power generated economics are calculated from the mine to end consumer’s power use.

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                When we waste coal by leaving it in the ground we then proceed to divert resources like lithium, rare earths, oil, gas and biomass to do the things which coal does best. We also waste money. In short, bad conservation.

                No wonder Big Oil gives so generously to Big Green.

                Conserve!

                Renew coal!

                Fight Green Blob!

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      Chris in Hervey Bay

      I read awhile back that Fairbanks, Alaska, had installed a battery backup for the grid. The largest battery bank in the world, costing just $41,000,000 Fairbanks has a population of 32,500. The battery bank is exhausted in 7 minutes, just enough time to get the diesels on line.
      I’m sure someone here could Google that and come up with some more facts.
      I believe there was a You Tube movie about it.

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    sophocles

    The Climate Institute has been a provider of pioneering research and a leading advocate for credible, practical climate policy throughout a tumultuous period in Australian public, investor and business decision-making.

    I wonder. What “research, leading advocacy [and] credible practical climate policy” did they offer South Australia?.

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      TdeF

      October 27, 2005
      FORMER NSW premier Bob Carr will chair an advisory council for the newly formed Climate Institute, which has been established with a $10 million grant from a philanthropic group, the Poola Charitable Foundation.

      The Poola Foundation – the creation of a branch of the Murdoch family – has long funded Hamilton’s Australia Institute. In one action, they have ensured that the wealth of corporate Australia flows in far greater amounts to the left than the right.

      And still the left hate Murdoch.

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    Run out of money for saving the world, did we?

    I’m a computer doofus, but am still able to use dozens of flavours of Linux, for which I pay ZILCH unless I feel like tossing a few bob in the hat. People put huge efforts into open source software and really useful websites then give their work for FREE. And it doesn’t just happen in cyberspace.

    Now this pompously named think tank has to close its doors because it can’t score free millions so its shills can do a trivial amount of junk research or crank out some climate infotainment for dreary SJWs?

    Sorry Climate Institute, but I don’t believe you. I think you’ve been grubbing for money all along.

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    Egor the One

    Amazing how a lack of free money crushes the propaganda !

    Or is it a case of ‘their horse is dead but still they flog’ ?

    I says: why wait til June ? How about taking a giant step for mankind go Belly – Up now ?

    Why the slow death ? Or are they still hoping for some obscure record to be broken in some obscure place to re energize their dying medievalism ?

    hope they take Climate Premonitionist Flannery with them !

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    Bill Johnston

    How good is this??

    John Connor and WWF’s Robert Purves were joined at the wallet. They were the “Governors” who set-up Anna Rose’s Youth for Climate Collation; Rose was was wife of Simon Sheikh, who set-up GetUp! (although that association has been erased).

    GetUp! and WWF (and Connor, funded by money-bags Purves) invented fake climate news. It was they(and the Purves-funded Wentworth Group) that campaigned overtly and covertly for the scam that is the Murray-darling Basin Plan.

    Purves funded the ‘ice-bear’ 4-degrees conference in Sydney starring “climate witness” David Koroly. It was instrumental in jigging-up the ‘benefits’ of the carbon tax; and it is Purves that funded “the dams will never fill again” Flannery’s book “the weather makers” (AKA “the climate fakers”) that led to where we are now: a wrecked, money gouging, privately owned electricity network, which is putting people out of work across the country.

    Conner is a lawyer. He made his money misinforming others and it is a welcome relief that he grabs his money-bags and runs. It was just too long in coming and good riddance.

    You have done enormous damage; just bugger-off and take Flannery with you!

    Cheers,

    Bill

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    pat

    10 Mar: The Conversation: So long, Climate Institute – too sensible for the current policy soap opera
    by Marc Hudson, PhD Candidate, Sustainable Consumption Institute, University of Manchester
    It was born into an era when politicians and voters were finally waking up to the importance of climate policy. But now, its ***self-described “centrist, pragmatic advocacy” has run out of financial backing…

    (Clive) Hamilton explained that in 2005, Mark Wootton, director of the Poola Foundation, approached him saying that he had A$5 million and wanted to spend it on something that would “cut through” the stagnant climate change debate. Hamilton thought about it and proposed the Climate Institute, which he put together over the ensuing months. After chairing the board for its first year Hamilton returned to his duties at the Australia Institute…

    The institute’s critics will claim it never escaped the neoliberal paradigm – the idea that the market can and will deliver as long as the right policy levers are pulled at the right time. In fairness, though, it never pledged to transcend free-market economics anyway, although it also tried along the way to expand the argument to include moral (and religious) values…

    The institute’s outgoing chief executive, John Connor, told Reneweconomy that the decision ultimately comes down to funding:
    “We haven’t been able to plug the [funding] gap. Centrist, pragmatic advocacy is not sexy for many people who want to fund the fighters or pour funds into new technology.”…

    But one piece of the furniture that urgently needs saving is the institute’s Climate of the Nation, the longest trend survey of the attitudes of Australians to climate change and its solutions. Hopefully another organisation (I’m looking at you, Australian Conservation Foundation) will pick this up…
    The staff of the Climate Institute will hopefully find new roles within the now smaller ecosystem of environmental policy advice…
    http://theconversation.com/so-long-climate-institute-too-sensible-for-the-current-policy-soap-opera-74360

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    pat

    smugness all around: ex ABC/SBS Karen Barlow and John Connor!

    9 Mar: HuffPo: Karen Barlow: Climate Institute To Shut Down, But Not Without One Hell Of A Political Parting Shot
    ‘(Australian politics) is frankly embarrassing.’
    And as the Climate Institute closes down after 12 years for lack of funding, outgoing CEO John Connor tells The Huffington Post Australia that climate facts are needed more than ever, despite it being “unsexy” “hard yakka”…

    “Some say facts are for losers in this current climate. Facts have a funny way of just hanging around and going back to bite you,” he told HuffPost Australia.
    Australian politics simply cannot maturely debate climate change, according to Connor.
    “It is frankly embarrassing,” he told HuffPost Australia.
    “We have alternative clean energy technologies at a scale and speed that are probably going to have to be the only solution we actually have to our increasingly brittle electricity system.

    “The uncertainly and the squabbling is the biggest threat to energy security, jobs and prices. And those three words; cost of living.”
    Connor is calling on philanthropists, business and investors to step up.
    “We are kind of in unsexy territory in producing research and trying to get people together,” he said.

    “This does not get people on the streets or rouse their beating hearts in lots of ways because it is hard yakka.
    “But I think this is where we do need philanthropists, and business and others to understand that a good investment portfolio should have an investment in this sort of advocacy and should be doing it at scale.
    “We have had a couple of great supporters doing that, but it simply has not been at the scale we need.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/03/08/climate-institute-will-close-down-but-not-without-one-hell-of-a/

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      Graeme No.3

      Just posted this in The Australian:
      The whole debate is futile. The Paris Accord means that human CO2 emissions will rise by 13% (probably more now that Obama has gone) where Australia’s whole electricity system adds just over 0.4%, so at the very most we are arguing over a 0.14% difference in human or less than 0.006% overall or maybe 0.02 ppm.

      To get that we have to hike electricity prices through the roof, lose most, if not all, our industry and a lot of the mining as well. The result will be economic disaster, a huge increase in social welfare and a bigger drop in tax receipts. The Greens may welcome this until the governments, State as well as Federal, are forced to dismiss tens of thousands of those in the public sector.

      The alternative is to do what many other countries are doing and use our resources of good quality coal for cheap reliable electricity. It will be cheaper than nuclear and far cheaper than renewables despite the claims of the ill-informed enthusiasts for both. While we settle for this we can evaluate the newer nuclear processes being developed but not yet established for the best, cheapest and safest way to go.

      The usual suspects will claim that ‘renewables are cheap” “dangerous Climate Change is happening” and that “Government funds are unlimited” all without any evidence of course.

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    pat

    9 Mar: AP: EPA’s environmental justice head resigns amid budget cuts
    The head of the Environmental Protection Agency’s office on environmental justice has resigned in protest over the Trump administration’s proposal to slash funding for programs that help poor and minority communities.
    Mustafa Ali, an associate assistant EPA administrator, helped found the environmental justice office in the 1990s and worked under Republican and Democratic presidents…
    Ali’s resignation letter urges EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt to reconsider proposals to cut EPA’s budget by one-quarter and ***dismantle the environmental justice office.
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/20d2e2516d4a4d8096a74418773a6505/epas-environmental-justice-head-resigns-amid-budget-cuts

    such vital work:

    Oct 2015: Grist: Ben Adler: Young people: Now is your chance to tell the EPA what to do about the climate
    The Environmental Protection Agency wants to hear how it should fight climate change from those who will be most affected by it: young people.
    EPA announced this week that the National Environmental Justice Advisory Council (NEJAC) is convening a “Youth Perspectives on Climate Justice Work Group.”…

    ***A cynic might say that this is just feel-good, “It’s all about the children” politicking. It’s not like these young people are being given any power over decisions like how low to set the smog rule or how to regulate carbon emissions from power plants. And given that Congress is controlled by penny-pinching, climate science-denying Republicans, it’s not like some ambitious new idea for, say, creating a big Americorps program to weatherize homes could actually get funding…

    McCarthy also notes that this will not be a one-off project, but part of a larger youth outreach effort on climate policy. Earlier this month, for example, EPA convened an International Environmental Youth Symposium in Atlanta, which McCarthy attended. McCarthy also has addressed youth through the Hip-Hop Caucus, a nonprofit “which connects the Hip Hop community to the civic process.”…
    http://grist.org/climate-energy/young-people-now-is-your-chance-to-tell-the-epa-what-to-do-about-the-climate/

    how much did it cost for all these committees?

    Wikipedia: National Environmental Justice Advisory Council
    The National Environmental Justice Advisory Council (NEJAC), a federal advisory committee to the United States Environmental Protection Agency, was established September 30, 1993…
    The NEJAC also has seven subcommittees to help develop strategic options for EPA. These subcommittees report to the NEJAC Executive Council. Each subcommittee consists of approximately 6 to 13 individuals knowledgeable in the subject area. Members are drawn from the NEJAC Executive Council as well as from other stakeholder organizations…

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    Bitter&Twisted

    This is good news.
    Let’s hope is the start of a series of Climate Advocacy “disasters”.

    These alarmist rent-seekers and watermelons need to get proper jobs- maybe in recycling.
    Emptying bins and sorting trash would suit their “eco-credentials”.

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    Several of the Climate Institute people featured in “Scared Scientists”. The website of that name disappeared and the domain appears to be up for sale, but the miserable mugshots are still viewable at http://cargocollective.com/scared_scientists.

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      el gordo

      ‘Brookfield Asset Management Inc said on Tuesday it would buy one of the two “yieldcos” of bankrupt U.S. solar company SunEdison Inc and take a 51 percent stake in the other, for a total of about $1.41 billion.

      ‘Canada’s largest alternative-asset manager is increasing its holding in TerraForm Power after first reporting a stake in June, when it called the SunEdison unit an “attractive investment opportunity”.

      TODAY

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    pat

    our MSM has set aside Elon Musk’s connections to Trump, and are gushing over his SA offer. the story has overtaken the sad and unexpected death of Bill Leak at the top of my Google News page.

    10 Mar: ABC: Tesla boss Elon Musk pledges to fix SA’s electricity woes in 100 days ‘or free’
    By political reporter Nick Harmsen
    “From start to finish, we installed an 80MWh battery pack at one of the substations in Southern California,” he said.
    “We can do the exact same thing in South Australia. Storage is the technology, and it can solve the problem within the next 100 days or so.”
    The startling claim certainly caught the attention of another billionaire tech guru.
    “Holy s#%t” tweeted Australian Mike Cannon-Brookes, who co-founded software company Atlassian.
    It was at that point that Mr Musk, the South African-born Tesla chief, doubled down and shot a tweet confirming the 100-day boast and ending with: “That serious enough for you?”…
    TWEET: Mike Cannon-Brookes: You’re on mate. Give me 7 days to try sort out politics & funding. DM me a quote for approx 100MW cost – mates rates!…

    Is he for real?
    Who knows? Perhaps it’s an elaborate marketing push, but Tesla did deliver on the battery farm in Southern California.
    It was built using an array of 400 of Tesla’s Powerpack 2 batteries…
    Tesla hasn’t revealed how much the Californian array cost, but its website says the Powerpack 2 is infinitely scalable.
    With some quick maths — it’s clear that a system big enough for South Australia would run into the tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars…
    It’s worth noting Tesla isn’t the only company pitching grid scale storage to fix SA’s power problems (LINK). But all have been looking for government funding…

    So is the Government interested?…
    Contacted by the ABC, SA’s Energy Minister Tom Koutsantonis said his Government is “up for the discussion”.
    “South Australia has over 1700 MW of wind installed and 700 MW of solar. Battery storage is something the South Australian Government would welcome and support,” Mr Koutsantonis said.
    But when asked whether his Government would be stumping up the cash, Mr Koutsantonis said the private sector should do the investing…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-10/tesla-boss-elon-musk-pledges-to-fix-sas-electricity-woes/8344084

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    pat

    they’re so excited at AFR, everyone wants a byline!

    10 Mar: AFR: Tesla’s Elon Musk pledges to fix SA’s power crisis in 100 days ‘or it’s free’
    by Ben Potter, Simon Evans, John McDuling
    Software billionaire Michael Cannon-Brookes has been flooded with offers to help raise $200 million to take up Tesla chief executive Elon Musk’s offer to solve South Australia’s energy woes with batteries in 100 days “or it’s free”.
    “The reaction has been overwhelming. My phone hasn’t stopped buzzing. The support is flooding in, both from individuals in terms of “hell yes!” and from corporates who are asking: “Can we buy power? Can we contribute dollars?” Mr Cannon-Brookes, the co-founder of Atlassian, said.
    “I need seven days to try and sort out politics and funding – I’m excited to get this off the ground.”
    TWEET: Elon Musk: $250/kWh at the pack level for 100MWh+ systems. Tesla is moving to fixed and open pricing and terms for all products.

    South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill said he was already talking to Mr Cannon-Brookes and Tesla ahead of talks about the proposal.
    Energy minister Josh Frydenberg said, “The government stands ready through ARENA and the Clean Energy Finance Corporation to work with companies with serious proposals to support the deployment of more storage.”…

    Tesla’s vice-president for energy products, Lyndon Rive, said on Thursday the company, which is best known for its electric cars but has just opened the world’s biggest battery factory in Nevada, would “commit” to installing the 100-300 megawatt hours of batteries required to prevent blackouts in South Australia within 100 days, if it were asked to do so…
    He (Cannon-Brookes) told AFR Weekend on Friday morning he would even tip his own money into the project to help it succeed. “For sure! I’m not sure I could 100 per cent fund it yet but I’d certainly be a big contributor,” Mr Cannon-Brookes said in a message…

    While it looked like a longshot, they concluded it is not unrealistic and they estimated it would cost at least $200 million…
    In a series of further tweets Mr Cannon-Brookes urged Australia to solve the energy crisis “with software and innovation”.
    TWEET: Cannon-Brookes: C’mon Australia. Do you want a) stable power, b) more coal and gas? You can answer “Yes” and “No”. Not answering might yield “No” and “Yes”.

    The Atlassian co-CEO spoke at The Australian Financial Review Business Summit on Thursday.
    CEFC chief executive Oliver Yates said the green bank was already talking to battery companies about storage for South Australia and “To the extent Tesla is interested, we’ll also talk with them.”
    A spokesman for Mr Weatherill declined to comment further about the specifics and how much funding the state government may be prepared to commit to advance such a proposal. But it was being taken very seriously and discussions would be held soon.
    http://www.afr.com/technology/teslas-elon-musk-pledges-to-fix-sas-power-crisis-in-100-days-or-its-free-20170310-guvf1x

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    pat

    BBC’s misleading, FakeNews headline:

    9 Mar: BBC: EPA chief doubts carbon dioxide’s role in global warming
    Analysis – Matt McGrath, BBC News, Environment correspondent
    Prof Katharine Hayhoe, from Texas Tech University, told BBC News she felt “gloomily vindicated”.
    “It’s not a surprise to anyone who’s been following what the Republicans have been saying publicly at the federal level,” she said…
    “The arsonist is now in charge of the fire department, and he seems happy to let the climate crisis burn out of control,” said Sierra Club executive director Michael Brune.
    Democratic Senator Brian Schatz said Mr Pruitt’s remarks suggested he is a “climate denier”…
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39221092?utm_source=Daily+Carbon+Briefing&utm_campaign=651a257bd0-cb_daily&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_876aab4fd7-651a257bd0-303473869

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    Dave in the States

    I guess it’s too bad the Climate Institute didn’t benefit from Obama style largess, or maybe the did but it’s all gone now.

    Last week it was revealed that radical left wing activist groups and radical environmental groups had been having billions funneled to them by the Obama regime.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/01/gop-wants-to-eliminate-shadowy-doj-slush-fund-bankrolling-leftist-groups.html

    The scam was a form of extortion, were the Obama’s Department of Justice and the EPA….ect.. would seek ways to fine business’ and corporations and then tell them they could pay much less by “donating” to X,y,Z activist group in place of the fine. See Limbaugh’s explanation:

    https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2017/03/03/a-real-scandal-obama-regime-funneled-corporate-fine-money-to-leftist-activist-groups/

    Such widespread corruption under Obama is just coming to light, but the MSM is doing all it can to keep it under wraps. Just imagine how the mold would have grown with a carbon trading scam in place or with Crooked Hillary in charge! Is this what John Kerry was talking about when he talked about an economic boon from a carbon trading scam?

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      David Maddison

      Also of grave concern is Obama’s radical insurgent army of tens of thousands working against President Trump. Very serious, not a joke.

      Trump is too nice. He needs to have Obama tried for treason and the numerous other crimes he committed.

      https://youtu.be/J2Q1fj-pIb8

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      Mary E

      It’s unfortunate that the climate scam advocates will see the efforts of the Obama government as justified and justifiable. Of course they will decry any effort to remove this funding, diversion, reallocation – the ends, surely, justify the means, and what is amounting to blackmail should be over-looked as long as the Right People are doing it. I have a good reason to steal, so I will just steal what I need. And what I need can vary, so I will take as much as I can when I can. It’s all for good cause, of course.

      All the “powers” Trump has are the legacy of the presidents that came before. All the problems as well. If anyone is upset with what he can do, they should look at themselves and their complicity in what is possible, as they turned a blind eye to all when taking of powers and rulings of courts was in their favor.

      Rule #1 – never give a friend power you wouldn’t give an enemy.

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    pat

    WOW!!!! what a week this is turning out to be:

    9 Mar: Bloomberg: G-20 Poised to Signal Retreat From Climate-Change Funding Pledge
    Finance ministers for the U.S., China, Germany and other members of the Group of 20 economies may scale back a robust pledge for their governments to combat climate change, ceding efforts to the private sector.
    Citing “scarce public resources,” the ministers said they would encourage multilateral development banks to raise private funds to accomplish goals set under the 2015 Paris climate accord, according to a preliminary statement drafted for a meeting that will be held in Germany next week.

    The statement, obtained by Bloomberg News, is a significant departure from a communique issued in July, when finance ministers urged governments to quickly implement the Paris Agreement, including a call for wealthy nations to make good on commitments to mobilize $100 billion annually to cut greenhouse gases around the globe.
    “It basically says governments are irrelevant. It’s complete faith in the magic of the marketplace,” John Kirton, director of the University of Toronto’s G-20 Research Group, said in an interview. “That is very different from the existing commitments they have repeatedly made.”…

    The annual summit of G-20 heads of state is scheduled for July in Hamburg. It’s unclear what countries pushed for the new language in the finance ministers’ draft statement, which is likely to undergo revisions before being formally adopted…
    The most notable element of the draft is what’s missing. The statement issued after the G-20 finance ministers and central bank governors meeting in July dedicated 163 words to the Paris Agreement…This current draft dedicates just 47 words to the agreement, focusing exclusively on development banks raising private funds, without mentioning government financial support…
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-09/g-20-document-shows-governments-retreating-from-climate-funding

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      TdeF

      Perhaps this is a preemptive strike. If the US just walks away, so will many others conditioned to the idea that whether NATO or the UN or charities, the USA pays more than their share. With Trump as President, people are looking hard at what they have to pay and will duck their committments. The US is the cornerstone of all the save the world fantasies. An isolationist US would shake up the world order and especially the climate cartels.

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    An interesting article about snow leopards in the Guardian, but they spoil it at the end by talking about guess what https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/10/rare-snow-leopards-gain-protection-camera-traps-altai-russia

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    pat

    WileyOnline: Geophysical Research Letters: Anthropogenic Warming Impacts on California Snowpack During Drought
    Accepted manuscript online: 9 March 2017
    Abstract
    Sierra Nevada climate and snowpack is simulated during the period of extreme drought from 2011 to 2015 and compared to an identical simulation except for the removal of 20th century anthropogenic warming. Anthropogenic warming reduced average snowpack levels by 25%, with mid-to-low elevations experiencing reductions between 26-43%. In terms of event frequency, return periods associated with anomalies in 4-year April 1 SWE are estimated to have doubled, and possibly quadrupled, due to past warming. We also estimate effects of future anthropogenic warmth on snowpack during a drought similar to that of 2011 – 2015. Further snowpack declines of 60-85% are expected, depending on emissions scenario. The return periods associated with future snowpack levels are estimated to range from millennia to much longer. Therefore, past human emissions of greenhouse gases are already negatively impacting statewide water resources during drought, and much more severe impacts are likely to be inevitable…READ ON
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2016GL072104/abstract

    8 Mar: San Jose Mercury News: Mark Gomez: California storms: Wettest water year, so far, in 122 years of records
    Between October 2016 and February 2017, California averaged 27.81 inches of precipitation, the highest average since such records began being kept in 1895, according to data released Wednesday by the National Centers for Environmental Information, part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
    This current water season slightly outpaced 1968-69 (27.34 inches average), when a series of powerful storms in January and February of that rainy season resulted in widespread flooding in Central and Southern California, resulting in at least 60 deaths, according to a federal report.
    The statewide precipitation values given by NCEI “represent area weighted average of values observed at weather stations across the state,” according to Nina Oakley, a California Climate Specialist with the Western Regional Climate Center, part of NOAA.
    “We’ve had well above normal precipitation throughout California,” Oakley said…
    “And the abundant snow pack we’ve seen in the Sierra, where it’s well above normal. Having that robust snow pack is really going to be great for spring runoff and one of the indicators we’re ready to come out of drought.”…
    http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/03/08/california-storms-wettest-water-year-so-far-in-122-years-of-records/

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      Mary E

      Love it. Science and reality clash.

      We have abundant snow pack, above average/normal precip, and are finally going to admit the drought has been drowned. But no, wait – we predict that this hasn’t happened, won’t happen, will never happen until we rid the earth of human-created discharges of that evil and deadly gas. Only nature can pollute our skies, and mother earth would never do such a thing. Really. (snarc)

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    Another Ian

    Somewhat o/t

    “So Skeptical Science Is “Correcting” Me
    March 10, 2017, 12:28 pm

    I really wasn’t going to do much with this Skeptical Science post by Rob Honeycutt called “Correcting Warren Meyer on Forbes,” but several readers have asked me about it and its Friday and I am sort of bored in the office so here goes. I may skip parts of his critique. That does not necessarily mean I agree with it, but several sections of this article are just so trivial (let’s defend Al Gore!) that it is hard to work up any energy about it. As reference, my original article published back in 2012 is here.”

    More at

    http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2017/03/so-skeptical-science-is-correcting-me.html

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    Apoxonbothyourhouses

    Somewhat off topic. I recently came across this video of Don Easterbrook which I have found most useful in explaining the false 97% claim to non-scientists. All excellent; the section on 97% starts at ~ 1 hour and 4 minutes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LkMweOVOOI

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    David Maddison

    We don’t need grid scale battery storage. We already have it. Nature has given us centuries of stored electrical energy in the form of coal. We just have to dig it up and burn this wonderful substance.

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      Analitik

      I want to see them implement the South Australia Tesla battery farm so we can see it fail after Hazelwood is shut down. As long as it’s privately funded as suggested by Elron’s mate, Mike Cannon-Brookes (co-founder of Atlassian)

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    ROM

    Maybe already have been said in the above posts but I haven’t the time to run through those posts.

    Sorry Jo,but you have the wrong headline there;
    .

    “Climate Institute runs out of money”
    .

    I think a more accurate headline would be;
    .

    “Climate Institute runs out of Other People’s Money”

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    David Maddison

    “Tony” on another forum wrote this:

    Wasting money is baked in to the business model of these organisations.

    Grants as a source of income depends on spending all the money so you can put your hand out for more next year. Thus expenditure is not determined by need, it’s determined by the amount of money available. ie expenses grow to meet income, if expenses don’t grow the income shrinks.

    However sound financial management involves matching expenses to need, spending only what you need to get the job done.

    A well managed foundation would sock away the left-over money so it can become more self-supporting and thus better managed *because* it isn’t wholly dependent on grants.

    But the left don’t do money management – other people’s money is just free stuff to them. Case in point The Guardian trust fund. The Guardian was set up with enough money to be a self-supporting media business and they squandered the lot by treating it as a slush fund.

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    David Maddison

    Lefties sometimes promote pumped hydro storage for backup of the unreliables. It is cheaper than batteries and fine for management of peak loads as it has been traditionally used but infeasible to backup the whole grid. Here is a discussion about that as it applies to the US.

    https://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/

    I also wrote an article on the topic in the Jan 2017 Silicon Chip magazine.

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    David Maddison

    Unlike some, I can’t wait until the first blackouts come after Hazelwood is shut down.

    There will need to be some serious economic damage and inconvenience done before anyone will wake up.

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      TdeF

      I do not wish self harm on ourself. No one will learn from it and it is what the Greens (Communists) want.

      For example in Victoria, Daniel Andrews does not care at all, as should be very evident by now. His popularity could not be lower. Nor Weatherill who completely lacks concern for his electorate. Every blackout is someone else’s fault, not the government. You are talking of a new class of politician who could not care less if their state suffers. After all, this is all intended, not accidental. It has been planned since 2000 and at $89 a MWHr, unavoidable now.

      The new political view is that Labor supporters are rusted on. Liberal supporters are deluded but loyal. The only people worth pleasing are the Greens how control the preferences of up to 25%. Do that and your job is safe. So Labor does not care about jobs. The Liberals do not care about manufacturing. It is all about pleasing the MGLGBTIQA set. I let you work out the first two.

      That is why most people are desperate to find a Derryn Hinch, a Pauline Hanson, a Jaqui Lambie a Bob Katter, a Cory Bernadi, a Nick Xenophon anyone who even pretends to care about what happens to Australia and Australians while the media are virulently anti free speech, anti coal, anti farming, anti mining, anti democracy, anti British and very anti Christian. In a wonderful country built by the hard work of generations of white Anglo Democracatic Christian people, we are being vilified and denigrated by the press elites who apologize even for our reliable power stations, which they are desperate to close.

      We will see what happens in the WA election. The game is changing and Donald Trump has led the way as has BREXIT. Most people do not want Malcolm Turnbull or Julie Bishop or Bill Shorten. Most people want their abundant, cheap, reliable power back, the boats stopped and deaths at sea stopped and to control who comes to our country and when. For now, self harm is never a good idea and we do not want Hazelwood to close while some just cannot wait for the blackouts. These are people who get paid no matter what happens.

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        Dennis

        A group of tradesmen under 40 years of age say they want governments that manage finances as well run businesses manage, that they are fed up with tax revenue being squandered on inter nation pursuits and money being borrowed too.

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        mikewaite

        “Clogs to clogs in three generations” is said to be an old English saying to explain how the third generation of entrepreneurs wasted
        all that their forbears had achieved by indulging in selfish dalliance.
        About 200 years ago men and women arrived in Australia , willingly or (like an ancestor of mine ) unwillingly and over several generations
        turned a land hostile in climate and terrain ( by European standards) into a place so desirable it earned the nickname “The lucky Country”.
        But now you have the Turnbull generation who see no connection between reward and hard work and believe that Australia can live for ever on the
        hard work of the preceding generations and indulge in such whimsical fancies as 100% renewable energy source.
        I fear that it is back to clogs.
        You are not alone of course ,it is a process that has been happening here in England for most of my life, but I thought Australians were
        more , well, rugged and individualistic (but maybe that is Hollywood).

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          NuThink

          I heard a similar saying to your “clogs to clogs” many moons ago. Paraphrased, the father starts and builds the business, the son maintains it, and the grandson runs it into the ground.

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      Analitik

      South Australia will blackout a few time first so Victorians will have time to express their concern/outrage before we are hit with our first set of large rolling blackouts.

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    Robert Rosicka

    David you would think that would be the case but I’m not so sure now , I think the govt is sneaking coolaide into the water supply .
    Proof will be the outcome of the WA election .

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  • #
    David Maddison

    What if those companies who profit from producing unreliable energy decide to step in and fund the Climate Institute? Scary thought!

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    Streetcred

    We need to fix that headline:

    CLIMATE INSTITUTE RUNS OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY !

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    David Maddison

    Here’s a factoid that might be useful in calculations relating to grid connected batteries.

    The Tesla Gigafactory is planning to produce 35GWh of batteries per year.

    So that would be enough to supply a typical 1GW power station’s worth of output for just 35hrs for a whole year of battery production.

    It’s difficult to see how that level of production is going to solve the problems of the unreliables.

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    Robert Rosicka

    Just thinking where’s Willard, this is his favourite subject and he’s bowed out half way thru after giving me a challenge.
    Could it be he has done his sums and homework , hence the silence ?

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    Robert Rosicka

    And as for Willards challenge , I accept , there is no way tesla can install reliable , sufficient quantity of batteries for SA in 100 days .
    The system proposed does less than 4000 households about 4 hours , I’m talking the state min 12 hours .

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    pat

    a bit of fun:

    8 Mar: The Climate Institute: Media Release: Chair of Board announces closure of The Climate Institute
    The Board has also reluctantly accepted the resignation of John Connor who has been Chief Executive Officer of The Climate Institute since February 2007. From April, Mr Connor will be working with Baker McKenzie, heading up the Fijian Government’s COP 23 Secretariat which has been established for the purpose of Fiji’s Presidency of the 23rd Convention of the Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. John has been a dedicated and highly skilled CEO at TCI and has been pivotal to our achievements…

    Sept 2016: Renew Economy: Baker & McKenzie first law firm to join World Bank’s Carbon Pricing Leadership Coalition
    Baker & McKenzie has become the first law firm to join the Carbon Pricing Leadership Coalition (CPLC) and commit to supporting clients in advancing carbon pricing policies worldwide and sharing best practice.
    A private-public partnership among the World Bank, International Monetary Fund (IMF), governments, nonprofits, and private sector companies, the initiative aims to develop a global network for sharing best practice. CPLC members agree to work collaboratively with the long term objective of a carbon price applied throughout the global economy…
    Baker & McKenzie’s lawyers played a key role at the historic summit in Paris, where a landmark deal on climate change was struck – and where the CPLC was launched last year. It was at the Summit that Rick Saines, who heads up the Firm’s North American climate change practice was awarded Chevalier of the National Order of Merit by the President of the Republic of France for his significant contributions.
    The Coalition now includes more than 90 business and strategic partners as well as 20 governments – but until today there was no representation from the legal industry…
    Martijn Wilder AM, head of Baker & McKenzie’s Global Environmental Markets and Climate Change practice, explains why the Firm got involved:
    “We have a long-standing commitment to helping companies respond innovatively to the risks – and opportunities – of climate change law and regulation anywhere around the globe…
    Many of our lawyers have participated in the negotiations as members of country delegations, and we are actively involved in working with industry groups and non-governmental organizations seeking to achieve global outcomes on climate change…

    Consulate General of France in Chicago: Remarks by Consul General of France, Vincent Floreani on the occasion of the presentation ceremony of the distinction of Chevalier de l’Ordre National du Mérite to Richard Saines, leading climate change lawyer on December 3, 2016
    You are, dear Rick, one of the most active proponents of climate change awareness, sustainable development, and renewable energy resources here in Chicago, and in the United States. As a leading lawyer in this field and head of the North America Climate Change and Environmental Markets Practice group of Baker & McKenzie, you have made it your life’s work to educate, advise, and affect positive change through environmental law…
    But where does this passion for the environment come from? I hear your mother thinks it could have started as early as 3 or 4 years old, the time when she challenged a developer to save a wooded area behind your house. You were featured in the local newspaper wearing a cowboy hat and became known as “Ricky the Cowboy” who helped his mom save the woods.
    You also lived in Hawaii for a few years, and your love for nature no doubt blossomed on this beautiful island…
    Not only are you a dynamic advocate of the environment in your professional life, you also do your part as an individual and private citizen by striving to minimize your carbon footprint every day. You drive an environmentally-friendly car, and you are a vegan. Well, mostly vegan, except when you are eating French food.
    Indeed, you have a deep appreciation for my country that started when you were 12, on your first trip to France with your father and brother. Since then, you have grown fond of French food and have come a long way from ordering steak tartare, realizing it was raw, and asking the waiter to take it back and make it a hamburger. You’ve learned to enjoy les petits plaisirs français like enjoying a glass of wine with your dinner or a pain au chocolat in the morning. It is true that you don’t speak much French yet, but don’t worry, we’ll get you there…

    ANU: Professor Martijn Wilder
    Martijn Wilder heads Baker & McKenzie’s Global Climate Change and Emissions Trading Practice. Representing an international client base; Martijn has advised numerous governments and international agencies on the development and design of climate change and emissions trading laws including the EU; Australia and NZ; Malaysia; a number of Southern African governments; UNEP and UNDP. He is also Chair of the NSW Climate Change Council; Chair of the NSW GGAS DSA Transition Taskforce; Chair of the NSW Government Carbon Trading Hub Taskforce; on the NSW GGAS Transition Taskforce; on the advisory board of the Voluntary Carbon Scheme Agriculture; Forestry and other Land Use (AFOLU) Standard on the Governing Board of the UK Government’s Renewable Energy and Energy Efficiency Partnership (REEEP); Chair of TRAFFIC (Oceania) and a Governor of WWF.

    Connor should fit in quite well.

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      David Maddison

      Re 8 Mar article. I am sure a superpower like third world Fiji with a tiny population of 881,000 can make a major contribution to global warming. Goodness!

      They have a per capita emission of CO2 of 0.5 tonnes per capita vs Australia with 16.3 and USA 16.4. Most of that is from cement production.

      Not that CO2 is a problem. Just sayin’.

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        David-of-Cooyal-in-Oz

        G’day David,
        But I think they reckon they’re on the receiving end of all that CAGW-caused, terrifyingly large sea level rise. So they need an army of lawyers to get compensation from those still-floating continental CO2 producers.
        (And of course, compensation = large amounts of $$$$$$.)
        Cheers,
        Dave B

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    TdeF

    Also you have to think, how passionate and dedicated were the Climate Council. A mere $10Million to spend to push their point of view and leave when the big money is gone? Compare that with the effort and dedication of Joanne and David, all those years for bits of chocolate. When the story of this fake science is written, some will have great pride in their accomplishments. Others were just in it for the cash.

    I also consider that this blog is read world wide. It influences people, presenting a fair counter to the climate propaganda. If not politicians then their staff check popular opinion here and for non science people may learn something about CO2 and Carbohydrates and the RET and that people are totally disbelieving of the IPCC. Maybe someone might understand that letting Hazelwood close would be tragic self harm, as if Daniel Andrews cares.

    What I cannot believe is that this week the Liberals in the Victorian upper house agreed to pass a Labor law against fracking.
    Does no one represent the electorate? Is political appointment a private club of elites who grab the jobs,the cash, the privilege, the free transport, the gold passes and superannuation and then do what they like and plan their retirement? What’s the difference between that and corruption?

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      TdeF

      Sorry Climate Institute, not Council. All pretending to be pseudo government. Then environmentvictoria.org.au. All with the faux authority from careful name selection, like Greenpeace and the lawyer battles over the revenues from the name. Money drives it all. Check Dr Patrick Moore’s Confessions of a Greenpeace Dropout for more. The environment is big business.

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    pat

    11 Mar: BusinessInsider: Jeremy Berke: ‘No country would find 173 billion barrels of oil and just leave it in the ground’: Justin Trudeau gets a standing ovation at an energy conference in Texas
    Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau received an unusually warm reception to his keynote address at an energy industry conference in Texas on Thursday evening.

    “No country would find 173 billion barrels of oil in the ground and just leave them there,” Trudeau said during his address to oil and gas industry executives at Houston’s CERAWeek conference, discussing Alberta’s vast oil sands reserve.
    Trudeau’s comments were met with a standing ovation from the over 1,200 attendees — an out-of-the-ordinary reaction to a keynote speaker, conference-goers told the CBC…
    “The resource will be developed. Our job is to ensure this is done responsibly, safely and sustainably,” Trudeau added. “Nothing is more essential to the US economy than access to a secure, reliable source of energy. Canada is that source.”…

    Trudeau’s speech also touted his support for the Keystone XL pipeline, one of the few areas where he and President Donald Trump share common ground…
    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trudeau-gets-a-standing-ovation-at-energy-industry-conference-oil-gas-2017-3?r=UK&IR=T

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      TdeF

      While Progressive politicans on both sides in Australia have decided to ban looking for gas, looking for oil and exploiting what we have found. As the world runs out of oil, I hope they are investing adequately in defence.

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    Pop49

    Jo I think you should have said “Climate Institute runs out of other peoples money”.

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    David Maddison

    In capitalism, if your product doesn’t sell you need to make a better or cheaper product, or both.

    In socialism, if the product doesn’t sell (e.g. unreliable energy production) the government passes laws to force people to buy it and punish the producer of the more reliable, cheaper, more desirable product (fossil or nuclear power generators).

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    pat

    not perfect – Kelly still sees CAGW as a problem & goes along with the view new coal-fired plants will not be built – but otherwise worth reading:

    11 Mar: Australian: Paul Kelly: Power shortage: playing politics only prolongs energy disaster
    Australians now live with one of the great public-corporate policy failures in decades as the nation once touted as an energy superpower is brought to its knees with spiralling power prices, shortages and system unreliability — as the long and unresolved issue of climate change is overtaken by an energy emergency…
    Cast the net wide for blame. There are no innocent parties. Begin with the obsessive climate change and ideological posturing by politicians, the failures by public servants, regulators and advisers to foresee unintended consequences, the utter inadequacy of the federal-state system and the ongoing shambles of conflicting energy policies across competing jurisdictions.
    The costs will be borne by households, businesses and jobs…

    Gas was supposed to be the essential baseload substitute for declining coal. But an epic ideological blunder for which Australia pays a high price was the decision by the green and environmental lobbies to cut gas out of the plan in favour of their fixation on renewables. This anti-gas campaign was lethal, had multiple dimensions, exploited the arrogant stupidity of the industry and tapped into farmer discontent.
    The reality has come home — relying on renewables, as South Australia does, means that the system needs baseload back-up from gas. The political class, completely unaware of the technical and engineering aspect, has been taught a stark lesson. The message is: if you want renewables, then you want gas. The two fit together…

    The pro-renewables cult has much traction in Australia — as revealed by polls — but the price, reliability and security costs have now come into play. Frydenberg has helped to establish in the public mind that there is a price to pay, and that the power system should not become the zone for “experiments”, as happened in South Australia. For Labor, however, this issue transcends policy because it has a non-negotiable need to protect its left flank from the Greens. For electoral reasons, Labor cannot surrender the “renewables position” to the Greens…READ ALL
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/paul-kelly/power-shortage-playing-politics-only-prolongs-energy-disaster/news-story/3e9dd7596c4cf21547c9d3192e304af6

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    David Maddison

    QUESTION: If Hazelwood had not been deliberately taxed out of existence, how long could it have been able to be kept running in its present condition before it became uneconomic to maintain etc.? Obviously, in a free market it would likely have been ready to upgrade or replace at 53 years old. Nevertheless, its longevity shows you the power and efficiency of these beautiful coal burning machines so vital to our former civilisation.

    BTW, as I have mentioned before, no one seems to care about the cooling pond tropical fish which will die when the lights are switched off.

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    • #

      David and everyone else,

      Have a look at the text at this link, and I’ll explain how to view it all.

      This is an archived version of this pdf document, so it’s out of sequence as you view it all.

      When you get to the link, you’ll see it’s in a tiny format.

      See how the top row there has three panels, well, you need to look at the centre panel there.at the bar at the top of the page there, where it says ‘Automatic Zoom’, well click on the plus sign until it says 110%. It’ll come into focus, and when it does read the text under the green heading The Future For Lignite, and you’ll see that as far back as 2007, there were plans to do a major retrofit at Hazelwood to use the drying process for the coal.

      All that sort of died when this CO2 scare started.

      Tony.

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      Graeme No.3

      Last year it was reported that a coal fired station in Germany built when Kaiser Wilhelm was Head of State was still running (as backup for renewables). Obviously small, inefficient, and omitting CO2 but forced by legislation to do so because of the disruption by renewables.

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      TdeF

      We all care about the cooling pond fish, except Greens who see the fish as conspirators against the ruling Green elites. So the fish must go to serve the state.

      This is close to Lysenkonism, this hatred of CO2, fear and loathing. While educationalists encourage STEM, science, technology, engineering, mathematics and presumably chemistry, it shows most people do not understand chemistry or biochemistry. CO2 is natural, essential for all life, highly desirable and not in the least a problem. Farmers pump it into hothouses to feed the plants. Plants will not grow anywhere without CO2.

      There is not enough to heat the planet at all and that is generally agreed. The water vapour story had to be invented to even make it remotely plausible and that can be proven not to be happening.

      The question was how does a power station get taxed out of existence without paying a tax. That is the cunning part of the RET. You pay the tax and most of what you pay goes to wind operators plus whatever they are paid for electricity. At 9c per kw/hr for coal or gas electricity, they are 3x as expensive as wind and cannot compete, cannot raise their prices, cannot continue. Exactly as planned.

      So we Australians are paying the world’s highest prices for our own coal and power stations built by our fathers! Electricity should be free.

      The coal money goes to the state governments as mining Royalties. The Carbon tax RET money goes directly to the windpower cartels for piece of paper. Only a tiny part actually goes to the power generator for electricity and they cannot raise their prices and cannot cover their costs. Then Weatherill blames the weather, the distributor, the evil power generators. No one blames the RET which is a super Carbon Tax, currently at $50 a tonne.

      We are being killed by political ignorance, chemistry ignorance and the wilful destruction of our society by Greens who also hate the fish, mere collateral damage in the fight against evil, poisonous, deadly CO2. The fish have to go.

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    David Maddison

    With regard to battery storage, we already have the problem that windmills are not honestly rated, e.g. a 1MW windmill might only be good for 300kW on average given a capacity factor of 30%.

    Wind subsidy farms are rated on the nameplate capacity of 1MW per windmill in the above case, not their true output.

    Similarly, I am willing to bet that Finkel will want large scale battery storage. There is a similar problem because the theoretical capacity of a battery is based upon 100% discharge and the problem with that is that in most common commercial types of batteries going to 100% discharge will dramatically shorten the life of the battery. In fact, 50% or even much less is a reasonable depth of discharge to maintain battery life.

    Let’s not let the anti-scientists and anti-engineers get away with making false claims about battery capacity as they do with windmills.

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      toorightmate

      David,
      They could have 100% discharge and then fully charge with coal fired power from Vic.
      Oops, I had better not say that. Mr Weatherdill will think it’s a good idea.

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        TdeF

        THe calculations on battery size lead to monstrous installations of acids and heavy metals the size of mountains. Lithium is different, smaller but more expensive but it has limited cycles, limited life span and the cost also horrendous in the billions.

        So this business of battery backup for a smelter is ridiculous fantasy. The 1950s idea was that base load power ran constantly day and night and when not used, say at 4am or lunch time, it was used to refine metals, pump water, anything to use it. People would have night hot water heating, night time slabs and Henry Bolte invited Alcoa to Australia to help. Now Alcoa are paying the world’s highest prices for electricty, 10x what they would pay in the US and inthe most recent blackout, 3/4 of the pots froze solid.

        This talk of more windmills, more replaceables, giant batteries is a sign of total ignorance by our political elites and our journalistic elites like Paul Kelly who thinks he is across the problem. The worst possible is dead Kangaroo Expert Tim Flannery who lectures on STEM subjects as if he knows any when his degree was in English.

        We need to get the politicians out of science, engineering and electricity and electricity markets. They have no idea, except to recreate medieval Europe with windmills and druids and now giant batteries while most scientists simply keep their heads down, knowing it is all nuts. As for socialists and Unionist apparatchiks like Union leader Andrews and lawyer Weatherill, you wonder what our society did to deserve such political leaders.

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          TdeF

          Besides, a previous generation built our power stations. We own the coal and gas. Electricity like roads should be free to use. We pay a maintenance charge but the governments see it as a way of extracting money for themselves. For example in Victoria we partnered private bankers to build new roads, tollways and the contracts are expiring. However instead of stopping the revenue, the Victorian governemnt are letting it run indefinitely, keeping the income from roads we now own while the operator is paid for no investment at all.

          Similarly with the power stations. We sold them off in the 1990s and now we are taxing the private owners our of business with coal royalties and tripling the price of their power with obligatory LGCs, forcing them to close.

          Why? Can no one see we are paying the world’s highest electricity prices when we do not have to import coal or gas or pay for the power station or infrastructure? This is all fake business justified by a fake scare based on fake science and in a fake market for carbon certificates called LGCs but supported by all political parties and the media, most of whom have their qualifications in law, journalism or as shop stewards.

          When Hazelwood closes, it will be a disaster. Even the politicans are starting to talk about energy problems, as if they did not cause them. The ignorance of our politicians is the problem.

          The RET can be removed in a day and everything will return to normal, the world’s cheapest electricity, as long as Weatherill and Andrews do not keep blowing up power stations. When Hazelwood closes, we will have lost 6.5GW of power. Why?

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          • #
            TdeF

            Most importantly, we are not saving the planet. Just 2 billion new people in China and India since Hazelwood was built exceeds the entire CO2 output of Australia. It is beyond ludicrous to tax ourselves for our own coal and send the money to China to buy windmills. Trump is right, if this is not a conspiracy to cripple our society, it is worse. A sign that our political leaders are nongs. Perhaps hard science qualifications should be necessary to be in parliament, but then the place would be empty.

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    • #
      Raven

      I wonder if these batteries would be eligible for the RET?
      I mean . . they aren’t a form of renewable energy, just storage.

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  • #
    pat

    hundreds of millions of $$$ yesterday is now $33 million, according to Elon. same tired old experts who got us in this mess in the first place. as to who would pay? the customers, naturally:

    11 Mar: SMH: James Robertson: Is Elon Musk’s tweet the answer? Experts are divided
    Has the answer to South Australia’s energy future been found by two billionaires making a $100-million bet on Twitter? It mightn’t be so simple…

    Mr Musk said he was “very impressed” following a phone call with South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill on Saturday afternoon; the Premier called the discussion “positive”…
    But experts are divided about whether Tesla is really the answer.

    “This would make a very, very, very big difference to the interruptions South Australia has experienced,” said Andrew Stock, of the Climate Institute.
    Mr Stock points to modelling that suggests many of the state’s interruptions, including a state-wide September blackout caused by a storm, could have been prevented by additional battery storage…

    “Obviously more storage would help, but saying it would solve South Australia’s problem is a big call,” said Tony Wood, director of the energy program at the Grattan Institute. “Would they have helped Adelaide get through three or four hours? Maybe.
    “The real challenge is how much is it going to cost, who’s going to pay for it and how”…

    Mr Musk says that the cost of building a 100 megawatt hour storage system would be $33 million ($US25 million). It’s not known how much installation, shipping and other fees would add to that price tag and a facility with up to three times that capacity has been mooted, putting the cost at over $100 million.

    But Mr Wood says the government itself funding or subsidising the plant would be a “retrograde step… very tricky and potentially dangerous”…
    But battery technology advocates, including Professor Ross Garnaut, say the national electricity market discriminates against battery power, providing a disincentive to investors…
    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/is-elon-musks-tweet-the-answer-experts-are-divided-20170311-guvztb.html

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  • #
    dbeyat45

    Stop worrying. There will be plenty of money for alarmist institutions when Federal Labor is back in power after the demise of the current directionless mob. Sorry to say …..

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  • #
    Streetcred

    #47 Musk reckons he can do the 100MW/hr battery ‘farm’ for $33.2mil … oh, excluding shipping, taxes and installation … so what’s the offers on $100mil ? I wonder what subsidies in the various types Musk will be getting his snout into?

    BTW, related news: http://notrickszone.com/2017/03/11/subsidized-company-supplying-subsidized-industry-which-is-based-on-subsidized-junk-science-files-for-fankruptcy/

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