JoNova

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Unthreaded Week (and what a great week it has been)

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Unthreaded Week (and what a great week it has been), 8.3 out of 10 based on 38 ratings

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223 comments to Unthreaded Week (and what a great week it has been)

  • #
    Reed Coray

    Did you see Mark Steyn’s offhand comment about EPA employees’ going-to-work tears now that Trump is President?

    If you go to the EPA office in tears, they’ll declare your face a wetland and you’ll never be able to use your face again.”

    What with my tears of joy, I’d better not get too close to an EPA office or my face will also be declared a wetland.

    483

    • #
      AndyG55

      Some of the EPA twerps need to do an about-face if they want to remain employed. ! :-)

      227

      • #
        Graham Richards

        Get rid of them. We all know they will revert to “whiteanting” any new authority and cause more problems than they are worth.
        Clean sweep is required if sanity is to return.

        393

  • #
    Oliver K. Manuel

    The Obama Administration issued new rules to protect the “rights” of DOE scientists to continue to deceive the public after Trump became US President:

    https://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2017/01/27/politicizing-science-at-the-us-dept-of-energy/

    172

  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    Gosh! I have a whole week to say absolutely nothing of relevance.

    I am normally restricted to the latest unthreaded article.

    Think of the power!

    I might have to go and have a little lie down, to recover.

    239

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      And that comment got you a red thumb! Proof that the trolls don’t read anything before pressing the button.

      276

    • #

      The Red Thumbelinas really have it in for you. You’ve said nothing controversial whatsoever (actually verging on saying nothing) yet scored seven red thumbs. Haters just have to hate. :)

      72

      • #
        Ted O'Brien.

        Threaded? How about this.

        2:20 pm Sunday, lazy, sat down in lounge room, TV on.

        Ladies in red, sporting types, emblazoned with: “SA POWER NETWORKS”.

        “What’s this”, says I. On examination, believe it or not, it’s real! On ABC Channel 21.

        Sydney FC ladies are playing Adelaide United ladies. Apparently Adelaide are sponsored by their already expensive power network. Wish them luck.

        Actually, when we were young and strong, we regarded soccer as a girls’ game. And indeed it is! I don’t watch much soccer, but the ladies play a much more enterprising style of football than the blokes, who seem to be spending too much of their time foostering around hoping to score in the last minute.

        71

        • #

          I used to photograph the ‘National Premier Leagues Victoria’ soccer men’s games for a newspaper and there was a lot of game time involved in falling to the ground and clutching an ankle or some other body part over some foul act that I could never identify or catch on-camera. Do the women do the same or aren’t they given the same level of acting classes?

          81

    • #

      I hope you have that “really nice” to curl up against. I want my mommy!

      00

  • #
    Mark M

    97% Doomsday Update:

    China has a weather machine that it claims will make it rain over an area 1.7 times the size of France.

    The China Meteorological Administration expects rainfall and snow to be increased over 960,000 sq km as a result.

    It’s not a new technology.

    Back in 2008, China launched over 1,100 rockets containing silver iodide before the Olympics opening ceremony so Beijing’s skies would be clear for its fireworks display.

    Nasa revealed that 2016 was the hottest year ever and 2017 could bring floods, droughts, SUPERSTORMS and wildfires if temperatures rise.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2693382/china-is-controlling-the-weather-and-will-soon-make-it-rain-over-an-area-twice-the-size-of-france/
    . . .
    Only for the most gullible.

    122

    • #
      Geoff Sherrington

      Mark M
      Did it work before the Olympics as planned?

      101

      • #
        Mark M

        Geoff.

        In hindsight, I regret writing the last comment and word ‘gullible’.

        I have no idea if it worked.

        How it causes rain, snow, and clear weather simultaneously is beyond me.

        90

        • #
          bobl

          If you make it rain, that washes the SOx out of the air and smog subsides for a while. So yes, rain causes cleaner air.

          70

  • #
    wert

    Donald Trump to sack climate change scientists

    Good. Maybe sacking some of them will offer a chance to those who want to emphasize we are not going to be underwater in 100 years, nor will have a +5K warming due to RCP8.5, nor we will have quick doubling of CO2. But just maybe.

    Trump should defund UN also, so that Europe may lead as it appears to want to do.

    253

  • #
    Pat Frank

    Jo, “…and what a great week it has been.”

    How long has it been since you could say that? And how long fighting for it?

    Congratulations at long last, Jo. You’ve been at the center of the fight for integrity in science and we now, finally, have hopes for a new day.

    463

  • #
    Graeme No.3

    What the last week has brought as well is the rising tide of hysteria in the media about what Trump MIGHT do.
    I suppose these people have been swallowing AGW propaganda about what might, what may, what is possible for 30 years and so cannot tell the difference between supposition and fact.
    The latest is the German public broadcaster comparing Trump with Hitler and suggesting that assassination was the only hope. See Notrickszone (and MOD I am not putting in a link, let the trolls find their own way). That will really improve relations with Washington won’t it. Or do you think that Volkswagen, to pull a name out of the hat, might suddenly find doing business in the USA rather expensive? Indeed given Trump’s enthusiasm for tariffs and the big trade surplus Germany has with the USA, is it possible that the German chemical industry will get the “carrot and stick” approach to building plants in the USA? The carrot being low energy costs and the stick tariffs.

    151

  • #
    john

    New Zealanders and Americans need to pay close attention to these folks:

    http://www.rechargenews.com/wind/1209647/longroad-looks-to-be-bridge-between-pension-funds-and-us-renewables

    President Trump needs to scrutinize them and shut em down.

    141

  • #

    Thoughts on whining, the Electoral College vs Popular Vote righteousness, Urban and Rural .. I’m sure there’s a Climate Change angle in there somewhere..

    https://notonmywatch.com/?p=1037

    - the old man

    10

  • #
    Geoff Sherrington

    Jo,
    Yes indeed it has been a week. Grandson 6 birthday as a bonus.
    Thinking a month or two ahead, if one can, maybe Trump action will be less on green things as the impact of immigration pauses sinks in. Time to regroup thoughts about what anti CAGW words to offer to your blg and others.
    Any particular theme you have in mind at this important time?
    Geoff

    81

    • #
      Gary in Erko

      Replace CAGW with MAGW – minor anthropological global warning, or miniscule etc.
      NMAGW – not much (etc).

      160

    • #
      Yonniestone

      As CAGW has always been highly politicised any actions by Trump will still have an impact all things green, I do think Australian politics needs a massive Trump effect on its green infestation.

      172

  • #
    el gordo

    A quarter of Australian residents reckon under some circumstances a dictatorship is preferable to democracy.

    ‘For just 61% of the population and 54% of 18–29 year olds, ‘democracy is preferable to any other kind of government’. Nearly a quarter (24%) of Australians say ‘in some circumstances, a non-democratic government can be preferable’, in results consistent with previous Lowy Institute polling.’

    Lowy Poll

    40

    • #
      AndyG55

      Just so long as its the dictator of THEIR choice.

      Sorry petals.. it rarely works out that way. :-)

      As the 25% are almost certainly far-left, child-minded idea-logs…

      .. suggest Tony Abbott as our beloved dictator..

      .. and watch that opinion poll change rapidly. :-)

      176

      • #
        TedM

        Yes the mere thought of having to work, to actually have to earn a living. Imaginr the work for trauma counselors.

        130

    • #
      Yonniestone

      These fools couldn’t imagine what a dictatorship would be like to exist in, its all fine and dandy for the left to romanticise while living with power 24/7 and freedom of movement.

      121

      • #
        bobl

        Especially given that the useless 1/3 of society is likely to be the first against the wall when the revolution comes. What use does a dictator have for soft, squishy, tree hugging, unemployable, green slime that are unwilling to lift a weapon.

        50

    • #
      ianl8888

      The usual problem with polls – they rarely, almost never, publish the exact details of the poll (exact questions, sample size and demographics, phone or interview etc) nor who initially commissioned the poll (Lowy lefties, in this case).

      Then the interpreted results are used to propagandise the public, without the information I’ve listed. The questions are always designed for some multiple-choice answers that never represent even a vague facsimile of the truth, with no opportunity for individual input. If one replies “none of the above” as the most sensible response, this is insultingly characterised as “don’t know”.

      One of the elements in the recent US election campaign that I really enjoyed was the slow burn of people lying to the pollsters when being polled. These pollsters could not believe this could happen and obviously have no answer for those who would commission them but now wonder at the usefulness of any result. Such joy is struck into my heart at this development.

      180

    • #
      Mari C

      That poll doesn’t say what sot of dictatorship, though – one the kids like, or not.

      I prefer the battle between our idiot parties and their buddy-buddy picks to dictatorship. The whining may last longer this go-round, but in 4 years we have another go at it. Maybe Trump will finally be seen as a good thing, or maybe he will fail miserably – we’ll have to wait and see on that. But with China waving its stick around, and Russia looking to hold hands, it is going to be interesting.

      00

  • #
    warcroft

    Biggest news yet!

    Well, well, well… it begins.
    “Pizzagate is false news. Its all a conspiracy. Its all fabricated!”

    Yesterday, David Boies the most respected attorney in NYC (and all of USA), has filed a complaint against Jeffrey Epstein for child sex trafficking, sex slavery… on and on.

    Those that dont know, Jeffrey Epstein is the Lolita Express dude. He has his own private jet which he would use to fly high level celebs, businessmen and politicians (eg: Clintons) to his under-age sex slave mansion/resort on his private island.

    Pizzagate is true. Its aaalll true!

    This is just the beginning. The first domino to fall. Those disgusting pieces of sh!t!

    “Defendant Epstein has a compulsive sexual preference for young females as young as 13 and as “old” as 25. Defendant had sex with young females virtually every day and assisted in the development and execution of a sex trafficking scheme designed to fulfill his sexual desires.”

    “Defendant Maxwell was for decades the highest-ranking employee of the Defendants’ sex trafficking enterprise. She herself recruited young females; oversaw and trained other recruiters on how best to recruit girls for sex.”

    “Defendant Kellen recruited young females and maintained Epstein’s sex schedule in order to ensure that he was not without the sexual favors of young females for any extended period of time.
    Defendant Kellen also handled travel arrangements for the various females being exploited for sexual purposes.”

    The full complaint can be found here.
    I warn you though, its not pleasant reading.

    Multiple court summons have been issued.

    Let the prosecution begin!

    233

    • #
      AndyG55

      This is probably just the tip of the iceberg of what would have continued, and been kept quiet, and utilised, under a Hillary Clinton reign.
      Bill’s gotta get his jollies somewhere. !!

      135

    • #
      warcroft

      Wow, Im being down voted because an elites child sex slave/kidnapping ring is being brought to justice.

      232

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Considering Trump wants capital punishment for paedophiles I predict a mass exodus of filth to countries that embrace such cultural enrichment, where they will be punished for offending their hosts in every other way imaginable as intolerance has no bounds.

      121

  • #
    AndyG55

    Yet another case of NOAA/GISS “adjustments™”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/01/28/homogenization-of-temperature-data-makes-capetown-south-africa-have-a-warmer-climate-record/

    Before even looking, you can guess the pattern of the agenda-based adjustment

    Get rid of the 1930/40′s peak.. create a warming trend.

    115

  • #
    • #
      TedM

      Pray for an avalanche.

      111

    • #
      Graeme No.3

      They had a choice, buy renewable certificates from the wind people and pay $90 a MWh or pay the fine of $65 a MWh.
      What would you do if in business? Besides the Directors may well have exposed themselves to legal action if they failed to do their best for the Company’s prospects.

      100

      • #
        ianl8888

        … pay $90 a MWh [for unreliable wind] or pay the fine of $65 a MWh

        Fair enough, one may think.

        But what do we then think the actual response from bureaucrats will be ? My guess – increase the fines to the equivalent, or higher, of the putative wind costs. Oh, and keep the actual wind costs hidden (commercial-in-confidence excuse) so the hoi-polloi cannot easily see how they are being ripped off.

        91

        • #
          Graeme No.3

          Of course the initial response of the bureaucrats will be to do that, but then they might think that the $65 (actually $123 million) goes into Government coffers and might be available to them (higher wages, superannuation etc.) whereas the $90 ($170 million) goes to the wind companies.

          I have wondered how to use this as a way of increasing the number of RECs. Would any politician be so gullible as to increase the number of RECs to the equivalent of 100% i.e. 4.3 times, and swallow that the extra 77% could be sold and boost the Government revenue (sold as painless deficit reduction). In real life the Law of Supply and Demand would operate and wind would become unprofitable because coal, even with a REC, would be cheaper.

          00

  • #
    David Maddison

    Thanks for everyone that answered my question at:

    http://joannenova.com.au/2017/01/theresa-may-britain-and-us-can-lead-together-again/#comment-1884102

    regarding why it is cooler at higher terrestrial altitudes, even quite moderate ones. Does anyone have any additional comments they’d like to make for Weekend Unthreaded?

    71

    • #

      Did you get to my 41.1 It was stuck in moderation. Something about bat defecation! :-)

      73

    • #
      Peter C

      I have read through the discussion. It is a topic of interest to me.

      Environmental Lapse Rate (ELR)
      The BOM publishes the data from balloon flights every day. http://www.bom.gov.au/aviation/observations/aerological-diagrams/

      If the link does not work, access from the home page: Bureau Home > Aviation Weather Services > Aviation Observations > Aerological Diagrams.

      Click on the map to open the Aerologial diagram. The diagram is a complex, skewT/logP plot. The BOM has a tutorial on how to read it. The stations cover a huge region of the Earth’s surface, from the tropics to Antractica and mid Indian Ocean to western Pacific Ocean. The time of flight is mostly 2300 UTC (10am AEDT) and 1100UTC (10pm AEDT), however 2300 UTC translates to about midday at Norfolk Is and about dawn on Cocus Is. Some sites only have one flight per day. Other sites fly special missions at other times, particularly Nowra.

      The ELR is always approximately the same as the Saturated Adiabatic Lapse Rate (SALR) up to the tropopause and isothermal above that in the lower strosphere.

      The Dry Adiabatic Lapse Rate (DALR) is only seen in the mid to late hours of daylight when solar heating has raised the temperature sufficiently to overcome lower troposphere inversions. Thermals will rise to the top of the DALR region. SALR exists within active cumulus clouds and can go quite high in cumulonimbus clouds. Except for those two particular circumstances there is probably a lot of atmospheric mixing and so not adiabatic.

      Stephen Wilde says “convection introduces deviations from the ‘ideal’ lapse rate slope all over the place but for the globe as a whole it all has to average out to the ‘ideal’ lapse rate slope otherwise the atmosphere will be lost.”

      The Balloon data tends to refute that. The lower stratophere where convection is absent is isothermal. So I think that convection actually trys to force the lapse rate toward DALR conditions. Something else is acting to reduce the ELR down to what is observed..

      As to what that something might be I am thinking about what Will said. I do not have this completely worked out.

      Essentially; The observed ELR is the result of both day time surface heating and atmospheric cooling (day and night). Radiative gases in the atmosphere spread the heat around and tend to force the atmosphere toward isothermal. Cooling occurs both due to surface radiation to space and atmospheric radiation to space. Convection acts to increase the lapse rate toward ‘ideal’ (ie DALR) conditions. Radiative gases and cooling acts to decrease the lapse rate toward isothermal conditions. The net result of these competing influences is the observed ELR.

      30

      • #

        Peter C January 29, 2017 at 10:22 am ·

        “I have read through the discussion. It is a topic of interest to me. Environmental Lapse Rate (ELR). The BOM publishes the data from balloon flights every day.

        Peter,
        The balloon data is correct for that location. The referred to ELR is often Just the US-1976 standard atmosphere. It is ‘nowhere’ its only use is to calibrate ‘all’ barometric altimeters to the same value. The idea is that maintaining proper baro flight level separation prevents Aw guano #47!! quite independent of actual altitude. Even military aircraft maintain barometric altitude in controlled airspace. Radar is used to avoid Cumulogranite_clouds, That’s Aw guano #57.

        33

      • #
        Rick Will

        Peter C
        The lapse rate is not tending to an isothermal state. The troposphere, by its name, is the well mixed zone and it tends toward an isentropic state. In the tropopause layer, any atmospheric parcel can be treated as adiabatic, meaning they are not losing or gaining heat and isentropic, meaning work done on a gas volume is reversible or the enthalpy of a given mass air remains unchanged. Simply put, this means hot air rising will expand due to the reducing hydrostatic pressure and the expansion causes cooling until it is in thermal balance – this is the same cooling process you observe if you release a valve on a bicycle tyre. Cool air failing will rise in temperature as the hydrostatic pressure increases causing it to heat up until it reaches thermal balance – this is the same process as rising temperature you can detect near the outlet of a bicycle pump when inflating a tyre.

        The lapse rate in the Troposphere is well approximated to constant enthalpy where the kinetic energy (heat) plus potential energy is constant. So as the potential energy increases with increasing altitude the kinetic energy as measured by temperature drops off. Hence the lapse rate is a function of the gravitational constant and the specific heat of the air at constant pressure. The Cp of dry air is 1003J/kg/K and g is 9.8m/s/s so the dry air lapse rate is 9.8/1003 equals 9.8K/km.

        The specific heat of humid air is a function of the water content at altitude and is not constant because the saturated partial pressure is a function of temperature and the air is rarely saturated. However the specific heat with any moisture is higher than without so the moist air lapse rate is always lower than 9.8K/km.

        The height of the troposphere depends on the lapse rate and the surface temperature. The height therefore changes with latitude and the seasons:
        http://www.qsl.net/oz1rh/troposcatter99/image12.jpg

        22

        • #

          Is this what is taught in Meteorology?
          Can you explain why? You claim airmass at altitude has some sort of ‘potential energy; what is that? If you drop some airmass; it does not accelerate toward nadir. What is the potential? The whole atmosphere remains a gravitationally induced isopower except for airmass coherent momentum.

          43

          • #
            AndyG55

            “If you drop some airmass; it does not accelerate toward nadir.”

            Air mass, it therefore has potential energy due to height.

            It doesn’t fall because the air below is holding it up.

            How does the air below it do that, if it doesn’t have kinetic energy of its own?

            If you take away the air below, of course it would fall.

            32

            • #

              Correct! ‘gravity’ with an atmosphere does not ‘allow’ lower pressure\density at reduced radius\distance.
              If you can coherently explain that, you can explain ‘gravity’! Next up ‘temperature’! :-) Guano anyone?? You get to buy the next round!

              13

              • #
                AndyG55

                Get sober and coherent before your next post, Will. !!

                21

              • #

                AndyG55 January 29, 2017 at 7:32 pm

                “Get sober and coherent before your next post, Will. !!”

                Why? that is no fun at all!!

                AndyG55 January 29, 2017 at 4:07 pm

                (“If you drop some airmass; it does not accelerate toward nadir.”)

                “Air mass, it therefore has potential energy due to height.”

                What nonsense, Gravitational potential only exists when that force is ‘allowed to accelerate mass’. A rock on a stump or a shelf has ‘no’ gravitational potential. Only some act of movement (of rock) to location of gravitational attraction and initiating acceleration initiates potential energy\work, force acting over distance.
                I believe I will have another beer!! :-)

                12

            • #

              AndyG55
              January 29, 2017 at 4:07 pm · Reply

              “If you drop some airmass; it does not accelerate toward nadir.”

              Air mass, it therefore has potential energy due to height.

              00

          • #
            Rick Will

            I agree that describing the expansion as potential energy is wrong. It is the fact that the air behaves as an ideal gas and expands proportionally to pressure change, which is a function of height. Hence the mgh term is pressure not potential energy.

            12

            • #
              AndyG55

              The air has the potential to fall.

              21

              • #

                Air in a container has mass, but is not an atmosphere.
                The atmosphere has mass but exhibits no ‘weight’. This was demonstrated by Archimedes in 271 BC. Displacing surface atmosphere only displaces that volume of space (no weight). The atmosphere ‘only’ exhibits pressure, density, and temperature; as the force of gravity compresses the ‘atmosphere’, to a surface pressure that limits further out-gassing from the surface! The Moon and Mercury exhibit continual out-gassing to space.
                The force of gravity never ‘accelerates’ the atmosphere, but does maintain the three distinct lapse under the constraints of continuum mechanics. This is the part that meteorology always gets wrong, along with some claim of atmospheric mass (in kilograms) which is about three times to large.
                All the best! -will-

                01

            • #

              Rick Will January 29, 2017 at 4:52 pm

              “I agree that describing the expansion as potential energy is wrong. It is the fact that the air behaves as an ideal gas and expands proportionally to pressure change, which is a function of height. Hence the mgh term is pressure not potential energy.”

              Thank you! Your ‘(mgh-pressure)’ is actually an exponential\logarithmic function with (h), as is the ‘density’ function. The ratio of the two is the ‘isentropic exponent’, (7/5), that allows an almost linear temperature lapse, and also give a way of calculating the actual mass of the atmosphere from the almost constant surface pressure. Latent heat from airborne water makes “any simplification” of atmospheric process an exercise in futility! The ‘only’ scientific answer is “I do not know”!
              All the best! -will-

              00

        • #
          Peter C

          Ok Rick,

          I think it was you who told me a long time ago that the stable state in a static atmosphere would be isothermal whereas in a atmosphere with a lot of mixing going on it will be isentropic.

          I find that the isothermal situation matches the lower stratosphere very well (at least as far as the balloons ascend before they burst which is about 55,000ft (16km).

          Question; I agree that the height of the tropopause changes with latitiude and the seasons. If the height of the tropopause depends on the lapse rate, does a reduced lapse rate make the tropopause higher or lower?

          20

          • #
            Rick Will

            Peter C
            Reduced lapse rate increases the height of the tropopause.

            Dry air lapse rate is 9.8K/km. So if surface temp is 293K the water vapour triple point at 273K will be 2km above surface. If there is water vapour and the lapse rate is say 6.5K/km then the triple point is 3km above surface. Over a tropical ocean at 303K the lapse rate could start as low as 4.5K/km but average say 5K/km so the triple point is 6km above the surface. The triple point is where water vapour solidifies directly to ice so that marks the bottom of clouds if water vapour is present.

            The top of the tropopause is at a temperature around 200K. At that temperature the level of internal energy is so low that radiative heat transfer begins to dominate over adiabatic mixing so the isentropic condition no longer applies. The lapse rate shifts from being negative to positive above the tropopause. So the top of the tropopause could be as high at 20km over a tropical ocean or as low as 5km over the polar cap at 250K. It is not uncommon for an inversion layer above the poles where the air is heating the ice. So the lapse rate starts out positive; gaining temperature with elevation. However the water vapour pressure above ice is low so the lapse rate is close to the dry air lapse rate above the inversion layer.

            12

            • #

              Rick Will January 29, 2017 at 5:53 pm ·

              “Peter C
              Reduced lapse rate increases the height of the tropopause.”

              You are way way over constraining some atmosphere!! Above this Earth; temperature lapse appears to disappear at pressures less than 20kPa an temperatures less than 220K. That is always the tropopause by definition; (where temperature lapse reverses sign). For some clue; what happens on other planets so measured?

              22

            • #

              “The triple point is where water vapour solidifies directly to ice so that marks the bottom of clouds if water vapour is present.”

              Never, never! Most high altitude clouds are solid\gas colloids not liquid\gas colloids. Most stratospheric clouds are airborne water solids, very tiny and thin! Proto snow anyone?

              22

    • #
      bobl

      David, none of those answers was very clear – let me try.

      Think of a column of air compressed by gravity heated at the bottom. So at the surface the energy is all kinetic and zero potential energy. As the molecule rises the kinetic energy (1/2mv^2) it had is converted to potential energy (mgh) just like throwing a ball in the air. Only kinetic energy is associated with temperature so molecules of any potential energy with less kinetic energy are colder. ERGO higher molecules are (in general) colder than lower molecules.

      Assuming no transfer of energy between molecules this would give rise to -9.8 deg per KM.

      But – There is always a BUT..

      While potential energy does not flow (it is just a function of mass and height) kinetic energy does and it flows to MINIMISE the difference in energy, so the energy flow is up the column of air and from the sun direct to air molecules (including water) which cause the molecules to gain more kinetic energy on the way up, the lapse rate reduces because of that. Water, because it evaporates/condenses over this range of temperature is very good at moving large amounts of energy skyward. Indeed one of the energies left out of the models is the energy the sunlight loses in evaporating clouds/fog.

      Hope that makes things clearer.

      20

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        Peter C

        It is a complex area bobl. I think we all agree that, “Assuming no transfer of energy between molecules this would give rise to -9.8 deg per KM.”

        The problem is that the balloon data does not show 9.8C/km, except in limited circumstances (generally on sunny afternoons and near the ground).. I have looked at the data from 100′s of flights so far.

        The actual lapse rate is a lot less than the theory predicts. That means that the assumption of “no energy transfer” (ie adiabatic) is wrong. In the case of ascending air (low pressure) the upper troposphere is a lot warmer than it should given its starting temperature near the ground. Conversely if the air is descending (high pressure) the surface air is a lot cooler than it should be given its starting temperature high in the troposphere.

        That suggests to me that there is a steady transfer of heat from the lower levels of the atmosphere to higher levels by processes other than convection. Surface evaporation and condensing water vapour in cumulonimbus clouds could possibly explain that in the tropics. But I am not so sure about the temperate latitudes and Antarctica.

        00

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          Peter C January 29, 2017 at 4:22 pm

          “It is a complex area bobl. I think we all agree that, “Assuming no transfer of energy between molecules this would give rise to -9.8 deg per KM.””

          ‘no transfer of energy (power) between molecules’ is a contradiction of ‘well mixed atmosphere’!

          Peter,
          Examine the lapse rate at 30° latitude and 90° latitude.
          This is where airmass is descending, increasing in temperature and enthalpy; and cannot convert H2O latent heat to sensible heat. Check the ‘dry lapse rate’ without ‘phase change’!

          11

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            Peter C

            No data for 90 South. I expect that the US fly Balloons from there by I do not know how to access their data. I would like to see it because it is a region of fairly constant high pressure.

            30S is where I live ,37S actually. It is an area of alternating high and low pressure pressure cells . I have looked at many balloon flights here. Wind data and humidity traces suggest lots of atmospheric mixing in the high pressure cells. Average ELR is close to the SALR every time.

            Almost always a high pressure cell means clear skies (mo phase change) Despite that the ELR is very far from the DALR and close to the SALR. During high pressure cells there is often a subsidence inversion at about 5000ft. The cause of that I have not yet understood.

            Once again the reference is here.
            http://www.bom.gov.au/aviation/observations/aerological-diagrams/

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        bobl January 29, 2017 at 2:09 pm ·

        “David, none of those answers was very clear – let me try.
        Think of a column of air compressed by gravity heated at the bottom. So at the surface the energy is all kinetic and zero potential energy. As the molecule rises the kinetic energy (1/2mv^2) it had is converted to potential energy (mgh) just like throwing a ball in the air.”

        What devout bloviation! The dense solid ball converts its coherent mv²/2 into mgh as coherent (v) goes to zero. Then converts mgh back to minus mv²/2 on the way back down! Try throwing one of your air parcels up in the air.
        Observe the result!! All of the atmospheres (KE) and temperature is involved with the summation of all individual molecular d(mv)/dt (KE). There is no coherent momentum (mv) in any direction,except for ‘WIND’. Atmospheric temperature at each altitude is a measure of gas “enthalpy”. That enthalpy is increased at low altitudes because of gravitational ‘compression’. See 14.1.2 the Janoschka Guano Gravitational Equation…… :)

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          Peter C

          Will,

          You seem to be missing the point some times.
          When you say: See 14.1.2 the Janoschka Guano Gravitational Equation, I assume that you mean 14.2.1.

          Ok, The balloon data is correct for that location. Of course.

          You say: ” The referred to ELR is often Just the US-1976 standard atmosphere. It is ‘nowhere’ its only use is to calibrate ‘all’ barometric altimeters to the same value.” I agree.
          The point is that all the balloon flights have very similar data. Have you looked at any of them?

          I have looked at hundreds of balloon flights in the Australian region. It is a very large part of the Southern Hemisphere. The US 1976 Standard Atmosphere is still relevant and correct. It is confirmed by current balloon data coming in every day.

          You mentioned Enthalpy. Please explain. The balloon data does not support an adiabatic process. Enthalpy is irrelevant.

          Please think before you reply.

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            Peter C January 29, 2017 at 6:59 pm

            “Will,You seem to be missing the point some times.
            When you say: See 14.1.2 the Janoschka Guano Gravitational Equation, I assume that you mean 14.2.1.”

            I still get 14.1.2 That Yonniestone comment of guano (bat crap) giggle!!

            Ok, The balloon data is correct for that location. Of course.

            “You say: ” The referred to ELR is often Just the US-1976 standard atmosphere. It is ‘nowhere’ its only use is to calibrate ‘all’ barometric altimeters to the same value.” I agree.
            The point is that all the balloon flights have very similar data. Have you looked at any of them?”

            I have looked at balloon flights. the US-1976 standard atmosphere is some committee mean, average, of tens of thousands of the same measurement! Such has no meaning except to calibrate all barometric altimeters!
            The variance and extremes of measurement hold ‘all’ information of some abstract Earth’s atmosphere! With this atmosphere, the careful analysis of the semi-cyclic, the somewhat repetitive deterministic, hold answers to ‘what da hell is going on’, never some statistical average. When da hell will you guys get your act together?

            “You mentioned Enthalpy. Please explain. The balloon data does not support an adiabatic process. Enthalpy is irrelevant.”

            Enthalpy is the summation of both sensible\latent heat power and pressure\volume power accumulated by this Earth’s atmosphere. Beware! such is ferocious. Be elsewhere\when if such hiccups!

            “Please think before you reply.” OK maybe. I will ask kitten “Shadow”!!

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          bobl

          What you say is true, as the air rises it gains PE and loses KE as it falls again it gains KE and loses PE, so the KE decreases by height. Now recognise that gasses are collections of “solid balls” and that the temperature of that gas is an average of the individual KE of all the molecules in that gas (in any volume) that average is a statistical distribution some molecules are stationary ( -273 deg) while some are very fast (1000′s of degrees) they stratify out to give the thickness of the gas belt.

          Physically it doesn’t matter whether the velocity of the kinetic energy is coherent or not, the ones moving UP will lose KE, the ones headed down will gain KE. On average the air at higher altitude will have lower average KE (lower temperature). Remember, it’s a column of air heated at the BOTTOM.

          Part of the problem is we like to treat gasses like solids, we “presume” that all the molecules of a gas at a given temperature and pressure are the same, but they are not. Liquids work the same, this is why water can evaporate at less than 100 deg C, the distribution of kinetic energies in the liquid contain a certain proportion that are above the magic KE representing 100 deg C, these molecules are eligible to break the hydrogen bonding holding the liquid together and gassify.

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            “Physically it doesn’t matter whether the velocity of the kinetic energy is coherent or not, the ones moving UP will lose KE, the ones headed down will gain KE. On average the air at higher altitude will have lower average KE (lower temperature). Remember, it’s a column of air heated at the BOTTOM.”

            Remember, it’s a column of atmosphere with higher temperature at the BOTTOM. This temperature lapse is created and maintained by gravitational force. Can a constant gravitational force “heat” anything? What do you mean by “heating”; is that adding energy to, or is it increasing temperature? When Cp boiling water is ‘heated’, it only evaporates more rapidly. I hate to be so picky, but the Clowns never define what they mean, when engaged in scamming. Is your Newtonian KE only mv²/2 or is it d(mv)/dt? Elastic collision KE is always 2(mv). -will-

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        Peter C

        bobl,

        I have read you post over again.

        I think we are in agreement on just about everything.

        A question of some importance is: Do radiative gases (water vapour again) contribute to the reduction in the lapse rate? If so it means that radiative gases cool the surface, not warm it.

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          Peter C January 29, 2017 at 5:48 pm ·

          “A question of some importance is: Do radiative gases (water vapour again) contribute to the reduction in the lapse rate? If so it means that radiative gases cool the surface, not warm it.”

          Airborne water colloidal condensate (clouds, haze) are by far the principal source of thermal radiative exitance to space! Without understanding what controls the how and where of airborne water, the CAGW Climate Clowns are but drinking own bath water!!
          All the best! -will-

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            Peter C

            You could be onto something with haze,“Airborne water colloidal condensate”

            The BOM now has higher resolution satellite imaging which is updated every day.
            http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/satellite/

            If I log on at the right time I can watch the reflection sun passing north of Australia. Mostly it is diffuse, even when the sky is apparently clear of cloud. Very occasionally there is a bright reflective flash as the sun passes the satellite zenith. I take that to mean that there is mostly a lot of atmospheric haze, with occasional very clear air.

            That does not mean that the haze is due to condensing water droplets, but if it is?

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          Rick Will

          PeterC asked:

          Do radiative gases (water vapour again) contribute to the reduction in the lapse rate? If so it means that radiative gases cool the surface, not warm it.

          The higher specific heat of water vapour increases the lapse rate dependent on the humidity and surface temperature. It has nothing to do with it being radiative. The fact that the water is radiative simply prevents all the water in the oceans from boiling off. If it was not able to radiate heat the atmosphere would just get hotter and hotter and eventually boil off leaving deep holes in the lower latitudes and ice at latitudes beyond 65 degrees where oceans and land now exist.

          However the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere affects the transmittance of radiative flux. The maximum OLR flux from an air column above a tropical ocean is around 270W/sq.m despite it receiving an average of 400W/sq.m. The heat is transported from the surface mostly through evaporation then higher by convection and conduction until the water vapour density is low enough to allow transmittance to space. The heat loss through radiation causes the water vapour to sublimate to form clouds. So tropical oceans are always gaining heat that is transported poleward by air and ocean circulation where there is a net heat loss from the ocean surface. The transition latitude is about 33 degrees. If ocean air and water could not circulate from tropics to poles the water would boil off in the tropics and form ice blocks at the poles.

          So water does cool through radiation but it is not linked to the lapse rate. The average surface temperature on Earth is primarily controlled by the heat into and out of the top 700m of the oceans. Water vapour regulates what comes in through cloud formation, ocean surface albedo and what goes out as OLR.

          The land surrounding the dead sea is the lowest land on Earth at -400m below sea level. It is located from about 33 to 35 degrees north and just maintains some highly saline water. There are many areas of land in the tropics below sea level. They do not have sufficient extent in latitude to achieve a heat balance able to maintain water.

          So Earth’s climate is primarily dependent on the sun, the unique properties of water and the distribution of water over the planet. The shifting of the continents over time has been significant in the evolution of the climate as it altered ocean circulation. The Pacific and Atlantic connected through Drakes Passage 61Ma ago and that resulted in a 6C temperature drop in the western Pacific and warming of the Atlantic.

          The concept of a “Green House Gas” gives the wrong impression of how the atmosphere works. The fact that water is a radiative gas makes Earth liveable. All liquid water would boil off if water vapour could not radiate heat to space. On the other hand it has this great virtue that it limits the rate of heat loss so it maintains balmy conditions over most of the planet.

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            Peter C

            Gosh Rick,

            It will take me 2 days to reply to that. I will try to take it all onboard.

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              Rick Will

              Peter C
              I did a preliminary paper on my thoughts regarding temperature control of the planet. You can download it from this link:
              https://1drv.ms/b/s!Aq1iAj8Yo7jNgVMFIiy5CJhfs5nG
              I have not yet numbered figures and I have not provided full references but the information sources are noted on diagrams.

              There is quite a lot of detail on lapse rate and modelled lapse rates for different humidity and surface temperature. I have vertical temperature scale on the atmospheric diagrams similar to Stuve diagram:
              http://tornado.sfsu.edu/Geosciences/classes/e260/DewPointTemperature/StuveDiagrams/StuveDiagrams_files/image002.jpg
              not the skewed temperature scale you see in the BoM diagrams. The Stuve diagram gives a more intuitive indication of lapse rate in my view.

              The lapse rate is given at my nominated constant humidity in the various charts. In reality humidity can be highly variable as you see on the BoM diagrams, particularly over land. The humidity in the poleward air flows over oceans is typically up around 80% and more consistent than over land. Have a look at the BoM diagram for Noumea for an example. That shows high humidity and the air temperature down to -80C at 15km altitude.

              One key point is to appreciate that the energy available to the Earth’s climate system is primarily stored in the top 700m of the oceans. Below that depth it takes centuries or more to transfer heat to the surface where climate is meaningful to most life on earth. By comparison land has near zero heat capacity and what goes on over land is simply weather. The trends underlying the weather (climate) is set by the oceans in the top 700m. There has been a slight recorded warming of the oceans 0-700m over the past 60 years but temperature proxies indicate that has been the trend for at least 160 years. There is no acceleration and 2016 was marginally cooler than 2015 by 12mK according to the Argo buoys.

              As Will has pointed out, none of the climate models can reproduce clouds with any precision and clouds are an important factor in the ocean heat balance. Although in my view they are not the prime temperature control.

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                Rick Will

                One other point to note is that throughout the paper I give the mass of water in a 1sq.m atmospheric column. The BoM diagrams give the PW in mm. These convert directly to kg. For example the 53mm in the Noumea chart corresponds to 53kg of water in a 1sq,m atmospheric column. Woomera shows 9.8mm or only 9.8kg. So the lapse rate is lower over Noumea than Woomera due to the higher specific heat of water laden air. The temperature at ground level is about 10 degrees warmer at Woomera but both columns are similar temp at 10km altitude.

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            “The higher specific heat of water vapour increases the lapse rate dependent on the humidity and surface temperature. It has nothing to do with it being radiative.”

            WV has twice the Cp of N2, 2J/gm-°C but liquid\gas H20 colloid has 4J/gm-°C. What you seem to miss is the 2400J/gm changing from one to the other at constant temperature. This happens continuously with radiative insolation adding Joules in the AM And radiative exitance removing to space the same number of Joules at night. Have you the correct W/m² for that activity?
            All the best! -will-

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          bobl

          The answer to that is clearly YES. The air (which includes water droplets and vapour) can be directly heated by incoming sunlight, or by radiant or collision energies. David Evans calls this rerouting. The movement of thermal energy upward through the atmosphere reduces the lapse rate from the theoretical maximum to what we see.

          The result is that the Total energy PE + KE rises as height increases.

          Will, sorry but what I say is undeniably true, as molecules rise through the atmosphere their potential energy rises so that at any height KE gained at the ground must fall equally otherwise energy is not conserved. Any description must be consistent with COE. One might argue as to why the lapse rate is less than this but the fundamental newtonian physics remains.

          Gravitation sets up the gradient and establishes the temperature difference and the temp difference then drives atmospheric processes that oppose the lapse rate (classic negative feedback). Water plays a major part in that, the more water, the lower the lapse rate.

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            Peter C

            bobl,
            “Water plays a major part in that, the more water, the lower the lapse rate.”

            I am not sure about that. I will check. The Antarctic stations show the lowest lapse rate. I thought they had dry air. Another week of checking the ballonn data will tell.

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            “Will, sorry but what I say is undeniably true, as molecules rise through the atmosphere their potential energy rises so that at any height KE gained at the ground must fall equally otherwise energy is not conserved. Any description must be consistent with COE. One might argue as to why the lapse rate is less than this but the fundamental newtonian physics remains.”

            Can you please demonstrate where any part of this atmosphere has any gravitational potential energy whatsoever? Insects, birds, and aircraft also exhibit no gravitational potential until they stop flying! There need not be any COE with Earth’s atmosphere! Sun provides; space dissipates, continually!

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      Peter C

      David Maddison,

      We have had a vigorous discussion here. I hope you have got something from it.

      I have a few things to think about.

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    warcroft

    Second Biggest News Yet!

    WikiLeaks has 33,608 climate change related documents.

    The same people who pieced together the Podesta/Pizzagate emails are now digging through the climate change documents.

    Documents are here.

    This could get interesting!

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    RAH

    Video of the swearing in of “Mad Dog Mattis” as the Sec. Def.
    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/01/27/ceremonial-swearing-in-of-defense-secretary-james-mattis-video/

    The changes from Team Trump have been coming so fast and furious that often some of the most important ones are not understood for what they are. Mattis will clean house in the Pentagon I suspect. Goodbye to all of the political BS that has come from that building in an ever increasing crescendo in the last decade plus. Goodbye to the political generals having places of substantive power. Goodbye to all of the side issues that have been diverting those charged with defense of our nation and it’s interests from their primary responsibilities. Though I was Army SF I have loved the Marines except those that sometimes get so caught up in what they believe to be their own services interests they forget that we’re all on the same team. Mattis won’t be one of those.

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      David Maddison

      On his first day on the job Mattis attacked Obama’s beloved ISIS at 31 locations. Obama would barely strike them at all and even then it was on low value or no value targets.

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        Yonniestone

        I hope he hits them hard on Fridays (Jumu’ah) when they’re heads are down and bums are up so they won’t see it coming, its quite humane this way.

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    Robert Rosicka

    Today’s gift from their ABC ,Dr Karl (Marx). Was on the CAGW meme during weekend breakfast and was saying how hot it’s getting over the last 30 years and it’s accelerating.
    Also went on with how many deaths there are because of the heat and heatwaves , another example of don’t let the truth get in the way of a good CAGW story .

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      john karajas

      No mention by Dr Karl of the dozens of deaths in Eastern and Southern Europe caused by the recent spell of bitterly cold weather? Of course not, what a tosser!

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        Robert Rosicka

        If Dr Karl had of said 20 more die from cold related causes to one heat related cause it would have given his religion away , and I’m sure the unbiased ABC wouldn’t want that .

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      Graeme No.3

      It has been so hot this last year in the Adelaide Hills that this afternoon I bought some fresh picked cherries, which normally run out late December, so these were 4 weeks later than usual in ripening. The local wine producers Association has issued a statement that grapes will be picked 3-4 weeks later than last year.

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    David Maddison

    I detest that guy.

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      James Bradley

      Dr Karl Alphabet is a frackwit dupe.

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      Yonniestone

      I actually met him once in Torquay Vic (Australia), back then he was jumping on the CAGW bandwagon so I asked his opinion on climate change where he spouted the usual 97% CO2 forcing acidic ocean stuff but added debate is still welcome, it was after asking if he would debate Bob Carter, Jo Nova or Lord Monckton that the eyes went wild and the speech went faster to the point of incoherence, I ended up walking off while he was still going.

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    The Democratic Senators are trying their extremely hard to stop Scott Pruitt being appointed Administrator of the EPA. Sen Bernie Sanders (second to Hilliary Clinton for the Democratic nomination) said to Pruitt

    As you may know, some 97% of scientists who have written articles for peer-reviewed journals have concluded that climate change is real, it is caused by human activity, and it is already causing devastating problems in the US and around the world. Do you believe that climate change is caused by carbon emissions from human activity?

    If you look at the bogus surveys, such as Doran and Zimmerman 2009 and Cook et al 2013, no such conclusion can be reached. D&Z asked about belief if some of the warming was human caused. The cook paper just looked at abstracts of papers to decipher if the authors believed in the greenhouse gas effect. Sanders states something that is untrue.
    See https://manicbeancounter.com/2017/01/22/bernie-saunders-demonstrates-why-he-was-not-fit-to-be-president/

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      Dennis

      The bus those “scientists” travel in when they are all together is from Shades Of Greyhound bus company

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    Gerard

    My contract was not renewed when I worked as a scientist in the area of carbon storage in plantation forestry because I opposed wind turbines being built less than 2km from my home. Magically after my contract had finished the funding came through. Unfortunately I could not get my job back and the very promising project that I was working on eventually fizzled out.

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    el gordo

    Raw data from South Africa indicates that the 1930s were warm and the cooling began during WW2.

    https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/clip_image0022.gif

    Homogenisation has altered that reality.

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    Mark M

    Jonova, 2013: Land clearing caused drop in rainfall in South West of Australia

    ABC, 2017: WA’s South West a ‘canary in the coalmine’ for climate change

    “After 200 years of changing the landscape of the world’s most distinctive continent we are only just beginning to understand how European settlers and their successors have vitally affected its ecology, its diversity and its climate.”

    PHOTO: ‘A single gum tree stands in a wheat field, WA’
    Land clearing may have had the unintended effect of lowering rainfall in South West WA. (Getty Images: Australian Scenics)

    It has recently been shown that where rain meets woodland, trees attract rainfall.

    The most graphic illustration of this is aerial photography of the Rabbit Proof Fence, which runs parallel to farmland in the eastern WA Wheatbelt.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-20/was-south-west-a-canary-in-the-coalmine-for-climate-change/8180496

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      el gordo

      Badly in need of a critique.

      ‘CO2 has the potential to encourage plant growth and perhaps increase forest cover, minimising the risk of further drying. But it doesn’t. CO2 is best absorbed by the lighter hued deciduous trees that dominate much of the northern hemisphere. Much of our antipodean vegetation is too dark to permit effective CO2 absorption.’

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      philthegeek

      It has recently been shown that where rain meets woodland, trees attract rainfall.

      Actually common knowledge for donkey years. :)

      And, its a fairly localized effect. Probably not that big a factor in terms of streamflow into escarpment water storage’s.

      All part of the rich tapestry of things. :)

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        el gordo

        According to Australia’s Chief Scientist:

        ‘Based on data from typical perennial grasslands and mature forests in Australia, forests are typically more than 10 times as effective as grasslands at storing carbon on a hectare per hectare basis.’

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          philthegeek

          Got wood. :)

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            el gordo

            I think your sink is as good as Northern Hemisphere tree sinks., but I cannot find a link to confirm it.

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            el gordo

            ‘Australian savannah was largely responsible for a massive spike in the amount of CO2 absorbed by land plants in 2011, new research has found.

            ‘The findings suggest that semi-arid areas could become key carbon sinks in the future, says Dr Pep Canadell of the Global Carbon Project and CSIRO.’

            ABC

            ———

            The upshot of this, Australia is again awash and we are a huge carbon sink, somebody should tell Malcolm Turnbull about this astonishing turn of events.

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        bobl

        Transpiration in action, also, if you are even a moderate gardener, you know that green leafy vegetation, absorbs so many photons (through photosynthesis AND transpiration) that it can be 40 deg in the sun but 30 something in humid microclimate of the leafy understory garden. In the filtered light lower temperature species can thrive reducing temperature even further which retains water – so yes, reducing forest extent obviously does increase temperature and decrease humidity.

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    pat

    saw this on FreeRepublic with link:

    POSTED 29 JAN: FreeRepublic: 21 Jan: Scientists’ March on Washington (Lysenkoists For Climate Change!)
    ***There are certain things that we accept as facts with no alternatives. The Earth is becoming warmer due to human action. The diversity of life arose by evolution. Politicians who devalue expertise risk making decisions that do not reflect reality and must be held accountable. An American government that ignores science to pursue ideological agendas endangers the world…

    ***the above sentences on CAGW have been removed from the website, but the comments strongly suggest they were there originally, as other MSM coverage will show as well. (more on that later)

    21 Jan: Scientists’ March on Washington
    The responsible application of science to government
    We are working to schedule a March for Science on DC and across the United States. We have not settled on a date yet but will do so as quickly as possible and announce it here…
    Isn’t science apolitical?
    Yes. The march is ***NON-PARTISAN, but it is absolutely intended to have an impact on policy makers…

    FROM 779 COMMENTS
    I signed up for emails but when I click the “home” link it is broken. And “Washington” in the URL is spelled incorrectly. Just an FYI…
    I suggest combining with the climate march on April 29th…
    I agree. The April 29 march is being organized with 350.org. Coalition is necessary for the success of our efforts…
    Combine with the Climate March, great idea…
    As teachers, this must be a priority! Science and education are under attack. This is an emergency and we must all find a way to get there and we must do this as soon as possible! The future of our society is at risk…
    This environmental scientist supports this idea…
    Can you add the “on” to the Twitter handle on the site so people can find you easily? It just says @ScienceMarchDC currently…

    Let’s be cognizant to make this against Donald Trump and not against all the people who voted him in. etc…
    https://peoplesclimate.org/ already in the works…
    Yes, and show how renewables benefit the economy. Clean Energy Jobs. If Hillary had said that message a million times she might have won the Rust Belt…
    This environmental educator wants to attend. Try to have it along with the People’s Climate march April 29. You could be “Scientists for People’s Climate.” I think the apostrophe is OK there…

    You absolutely need to add social sharing links on this page!!!!!!…
    Please fix your Facebook group link as it is broken…
    You must have political activists help with this. The Women’s March was peaceful and successful because the original people who though up the march let professional organizers lead the way. Coordinate with the head of women’s march. You won’t be sorry…
    I’m a physician-scientist in Boston and know hundreds of other scientists and medical professionals here. Could have a huge turnout in Boston. We need to protect FACTS and science of all kinds, across all disciplines etc…
    This Environmental Scientist will be there, and completely supports you…
    About Me page: NOTHING
    http://www.scientistsmarchonwashington.com/2017/01/what-is-scientists-march-on-washington.html

    more to come.

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    Brian J. Baker

    Have you talked with Jennifer about this???

    10

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    philthegeek

    edit:

    “anyone NOT a whinging fringe right WASP derivative in the US. “

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    pat

    WaPo helps get the word out about this NON-PARTISAN march!

    25 Jan: WaPo: Sarah Kaplan: Are scientists going to march on Washington?
    The next big march on Washington could flood the Mall with scientists.
    It’s an idea spawned on Reddit, where several scientists — concerned about the new president’s policies on climate change and other issues, and hyped from the success of the Women’s March on Washington — were discussing the best way to respond to what they feared would be an administration hostile to science.
    Then someone wrote, “There needs to be a Scientists’ March on Washington.”
    “100%,” someone replied. Dozens of others agreed.
    LINK: Trump administration gives scientists cold shoulder, alarming research community

    One participant in the exchange, University of Texas Health Science Center postdoctoral fellow Jonathan Berman, took the conversation to heart. In short order, the march had a Facebook page (whose membership swelled from 200 people on Tuesday night to more than 300,000 by Wednesday evening), a Twitter handle, a website, two co-chairs, Berman and science writer and public health researcher Caroline Weinberg, and a Google form through which interested researchers could sign up to help.
    Right now, that’s all it has…

    Weinberg said that the news Tuesday that scientists with some federal research agencies were barred from communicating with the public “lit a fire under us.”
    “We were inspired (well, infuriated) by the current attacks on science from the new administration,” she wrote in an email. “Slashing funding and restricting scientists from communicating their findings (from tax-funded research!) with the public is absurd and cannot be allowed to stand as policy.”
    Weinberg, Berman and others who have expressed interest will meet (virtually) this weekend to develop a more robust plan. They’re looking to team up with other proponents of a scientists’ march — since they’re not the first people to float the idea. And “sister marches” in other cities, including Boston and Seattle, also appear to be in the works.
    278 COMMENTS
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/01/24/are-scientists-going-to-march-on-washington/?utm_term=.1f781f9e24ce

    Forbes gives it 2 pages:

    2 pages: 26 Jan: Forbes: Robert Glatter M.D: Scientists’ March On Washington Being Planned
    Following in the footsteps of the Women’s March on Washington last weekend, scientists have now begun to organize, with their sights also set on D.C…
    With the Trump administration poised to pull the U.S. out of the Paris Climate Agreement and a former employee at Badlands National Park posting unauthorized tweets about the effects of global warming, along with the reported recent cancellation of a planned CDC conference on global warming, scientists are drawing a line in the sand: they will not stand by on the sidelines as the new administration forges ahead with policies which oppose clearly established facts and scientific principles…

    Their new website, “Scientists’ March on Washington,” is a call to arms, urging “the responsible application of science to government.”
    “There are certain things that we accept as facts with no alternatives. The Earth is becoming warmer due to human action. The diversity of life arose by evolution.” etc …

    ***Dr. Caroline Weinberg, a public health researcher, science writer and co-chair of the organizing group, told STAT News yesterday that “our motivation is pretty straightforward,” adding that “ scientists worldwide have been alarmed by the clear anti-science actions taken by the Trump administration. It has been less than a week and there have already been funding freezes and efforts to restrict scientists from communicating their findings (from tax-funded research) with the public.”…
    Weinberg told STAT News (LINK) that “this is not a partisan issue—people from all parts of the spectrum should be alarmed by these efforts to deny scientific progress.”…
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2017/01/26/scientists-march-on-washington-being-planned/#1326a2e856a7

    25 Jan: STAT News: Kate Sheridan: Scientists plan their own march on Washington
    Just hours after the Women’s March on Washington ended on Saturday, scientists began to discuss organizing a march of their own. Now that idea has rapidly begun to take shape, with the official Facebook group gathering hundreds of thousands of online adherents in just the past day and the #ScienceMarch hashtag trending on Twitter.
    Prospective attendees and organizers have been coordinating on a closed Facebook group with over 220,000 members, along with conversations happening on Twitter and Reddit. According to a post in the group from Jonathan Berman, a University of Texas Health Science Center postdoctoral fellow, the march had attracted multiple sponsorship offers and nearly 2,500 volunteers. And the initiative already has its T-shirts on sale…

    “Our motivation is pretty straightforward,” Dr. Caroline Weinberg, a science writer and public health researcher who is co-chairing the organizing group, said by email…
    “This is not a partisan issue — people from all parts of the political spectrum should be alarmed by these efforts to deny scientific progress,” Weinberg said. “Scientific research moves us forward and we should not allow asinine policies to thwart it.”
    PIC SCIENCE MARCH T-SHIRT

    Some notable non-scientists have expressed support for the march.
    There is “definitely a chance” that Representative Don Beyer, who represents a district in northern Virginia, will attend, according to a staffer in the congressman’s office. Beyer is the ranking member of the Oversight Subcommittee to the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, and also sits on the Subcommittee on Federal Lands. “He loves science, he has a lot of friends who are scientists,” the staffer said, noting that many of the residents in the district are government employees.
    https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/25/science-march-washington/

    on Prof Paul Young’s Twitter page:

    Twitter: 26 Jan: Tim Minchin: So. @ScienceMarchNY, @ScienceMarchDC, @ScienceMarchUK. Follow the one closest to you! Spread the word.
    Prof Paul Young: @timminchin @ScienceMarchNY @ScienceMarchDC @ScienceMarchUK We are on to it Tim #ScienceMarchAustralia
    https://twitter.com/ProfPaulYoung/status/825227625396215809
    Prof Paul Young: Expressions of interest from Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne so far.

    10

    • #
      bobl

      I wonder what would happen if I turned up with my sign that says

      Global Warming – latest science

      Not Manmade
      Not Dangerous
      and
      Not Important

      10

  • #
    Crakar24

    Lost power again in SA last night at around 1am for about 90 minutes, people n lyndoch (hext town up) lost it as well so not a local event.

    Could be caused by a possum of course and not another load shed condition but its all quiet here on the fake news front.

    Perhaps Pat can dig something up.

    Cheers

    90

    • #

      Hmm!

      Could be very little wind power available.

      Right now, in South Australia, at 11.30AM Sunday, wind power is showing a total power generation of, umm, 15MW.

      At around Midnight, it dropped off considerably from around 270MW to 200MW and then just kept falling to where it is now.

      For some perspective, that current 15MW power delivery in SA, well that’s a Capacity Factor of less than 1%, so of the (approximately) 900 or so wind towers, that means around 9 (yes, that is NINE) of them are actually turning, across the whole State of South Australia.

      Ah! Wind Power. You just can’t beat it.

      The gift that keeps on not giving.

      If ANYTHING else had a working percentage that got as low as 1%, it would be laughed out of existence.

      Tony.

      Reference: Wind Energy In Australia – You know the drill, roll down to that second graph, click on MW, untick the total and every State except SA.

      221

      • #
        AndyG55

        Victoria and NSW wind turbines look like they are doing almost as well as the SA ones ! :-)

        84

      • #
        Crakar24

        Thanks tony, one must now ask the question where is the power coming from for my a/c? I can feel another price spike about to appear
        Cheers

        70

      • #
        StefanL

        And notice the highly misleading colour scheme.
        – Green means low utilisation
        – Red means high utilisation
        – and White means no utilisation at all
        So a wash of green means very little wind power is being generated !

        A much more honest depiction would be to:
        change the white to black, change the green to red, swap the yellow with the amber, and change the red to green,

        40

      • #
        toorightmate

        The SA/Vic interconnector must be running red hot at present. The wind power figures have been abysmally low for 4 days straight.
        Perhaps the famous Jay Wetherill could spray some water on the interconnector to keep it cool.
        Now there’s an innovative idea which would keep a few people very nimble!!!

        40

        • #
          StefanL

          Looks like some diesel generators are being fired up in SA.
          Currently 75MW from liquid fuels and 35 MW from the bird choppers.
          (link)

          (And yes, I’m embarrassed that I live here.)

          30

        • #
          David Maddison

          How much does imported VIC electricity cost SA, anyone know?

          00

      • #
        David Maddison

        I’ve got an idea how SA can solve its problem with a lack of wind to power the bird choppers.

        Why can’t they just build some gas, coal or nuclear powered generators?

        Seems simple enough and the technology is well proven, unlike disproven wind power which was abandoned first time around about 250 yrs ago as soon as the first reliable steam engine was invented.

        Why are they relying on technology which was abandoned as being ineffective over two centuries ago?

        21

  • #
    Rick Will

    My understanding of MODTRAN is that the surface at the base of the atmospheric model, emitting the radiation, is a assumed a black body:
    http://climatemodels.uchicago.edu/modtran/
    From an Earth climate perspective it is heat loss from the oceans that matter not from a black body. Most of the heat is lost through evaporation and then eventually radiated to space by water vapour. The MODTRAN model shows a spectrum that follows the 300K black body spectrum for a good portion of the spectrum at the high energy end then the big dip at the CO2 absorption band.

    I would like to know what the actual EMR spectrum would be at the top of an air column over ocean water. The point of the question is – does a water surface actually have high emittance in the high absorption bands of CO2?

    11

    • #

      Rick Will January 29, 2017 at 11:43 am ·

      “My understanding of MODTRAN is that the surface at the base of the atmospheric model, emitting the radiation, is a assumed a black body:
      http://climatemodels.uchicago.edu/modtran/
      From an Earth climate perspective it is heat loss from the oceans that matter not from a black body.”

      The air temperature is set by ‘convection’ not by electromagnetic radiative flux from the surface. If the whole surface did not radiate at all; (were reflective from 3-1000 microns), surface temperatures would be increased by a few degrees but plant expiration of WV plus increased ocean evaporation would limit such increase.
      Please note:99 out of 100 folk treat the word radiation as though it was heat transfer such as from a automobile ‘radiator’ or a public building steam ‘radiator’. both are properly ‘convective heat transfer’, not EMR.

      “Most of the heat is lost through evaporation and then eventually radiated to space by water vapour. The MODTRAN model shows a spectrum that follows the 300K black body spectrum for a good portion of the spectrum at the high energy end then the big dip at the CO2 absorption band.”

      This is correct only for clear nightime sky looking straight down (nadir). With any overcast (68%) all exit flux originates from the top of the overcast, not the surface. In the 14-16 micron CO2 band all exit flux originates from the tropopause and has been the same since CO2 levels reached 160ppmv. Increasing CO2 levels above that level to 2000ppmv (0.2%) does nothing measurable, except the ferns grow wildly.

      “I would like to know what the actual EMR spectrum would be at the top of an air column over ocean water. The point of the question is – does a water surface actually have high emittance in the high absorption bands of CO2?”

      The water surface has high emissivity to 55°from normal, in that 14-16 micron band. However the actual emittance\exitance is but a few milliwatts/m²! This is because the high opposing ‘radiance’ of the first few meters of atmospheric CO2 above limits the generation of such exitance. This also has not changed since CO2 reached 160ppmv.
      All the best! -will-

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      • #
        Rick Will

        Thanks Will. Your answer on the emissivity suits me.

        I have been playing around with MODTRAN and it can be demonstrated that this model requires 0.7C rise to compensate for doubling CO2 over an ocean surface.
        http://climatemodels.uchicago.edu/modtran/

        The accuracy of the model can be debated but climatologists place considerable weight on its output so it is their tool being used to demonstrate how little impact doubling CO2 has. With its preloaded values the humidity is 50%. This is closer to humidity over land than over oceans. And only oceans affect climate. Land causes weather.

        With the CO2 set at 350 and other air parameters as they are, set the temperature offset to -10.4. The output should be:
        Upward IR Heat Flux 253.241 W/m2
        Ground Temperature 289.3 K

        Now set the CO2 to 700ppm and adjust the surface temp offset to -9.7 to get output:
        Upward IR Heat Flux 253.115 W/m2
        Ground Temperature 290 K

        So MODTRAN forecasts CO2 sensitivity to be 0.7C.

        By lowering the surface temperature to 290K the Water Vapour Scale of 1 results in 100% surface humidity (20Mbar) in the model. That is what could be expected over the oceans.

        If the surface temperature is 300K then WVS factor needs to be 2 to get 100% humidity at the surface.

        If you fiddle around with the model and set the WVS to get 100% humidity for the different values of CO2 (the so-called water feedback) then the sensitivity gets up to 1.2C at 300K. Even this value, if you place credibility in the model, is well inside any natural variation.

        A temperature adjustment of 0.7C will also negate CO2 doubling under the various cloud scenarios offered in the model.

        00

  • #
    clipe

    What’s this all about, Alfie?

    date: Wed Nov 19 14:31:50 2008
    from: Phil Jones
    subject: NI grid cells plus more
    to: C G Kilsby , Colin Harpham , “‘vassilis glenis’”

    Chris et al,
    Below is an email from Dan Hollis of MOHC. It nicely explains why the grids differ for different periods. They are aware of it, regret it, but we now
    that we’ll have to deal it. Colin knows what he has to do – this is to extend the MOHC mean T and DTR grids for the 5km buffer around the coastline of Britain. This is fine and won’t take too long to do. Extrapolation is going to be not more than 10km and probably only 5km.
    The problem is Northern Ireland !!!
    The reason Colin asked Vaz to run the WG for the control period (1961-90) was to get the averages that the WG produces for mean T and DTR for all the UK
    points that the WG will simulate. With these we’ll produce an offset file that will adjust these to what MOHC has for each 5km square. These offsets
    are mostly in the range +/- 2 deg C, but are slightly larger around some coasts.These offsets will be an additional number(s) to add to all generated data from
    the WG. The effect is to force the WG to get almost the same 1961-90 average as MOHC produces for each 5 by 5km square. If we’d been able to use daily
    grids on the 5km scale (which MOHC still have yet to produce) we wouldn’t needed to have gone down the route with the interpolation from 115 stations.
    I explained why the 115 stations don’t do as well as hoped at the Nov 3 PMG.
    Anyway – all this is background. We have time to do it, it won’t take long so we’re doing it. We’re only doing it for Tmean and DTR. It’s not an issue with sunshine,
    Vapour pressure etc. It related to frost hollows and coastal effects. It may be that MOHC isn’t exactly right, but if we agree with them we can’t be criticized on that score.

    Back to Northern Ireland! See the map that Colin sent earlier.
    There are 100s of points that are in your grid which are in Ireland (Eire)!! You have all of County Monaghan for example. I’m sure DEFRA wouldn’t want the
    package to work beyond the NI border. There is one 5km point that should be in that you do not have. This is in the extreme west of Co. Fermanagh. Maybe we’ll be lucky and no-one in Belleek will try and get any data! Colin reckons that if you remove the points wholly in Eire, then send him the revised set of co-ordinates he can produce the set of offsets needed.He can’t extrapolate easily to your red circles (see earlier attachment) as some are way away for the true border. Also we shouldn’t be offering points outside. NI – even if they are part of cross-border catchments.
    Cheers
    Phil

    X-Authentication-Warning: ueamailgate02.uea.ac.uk: defang set sender to
    using -f
    X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i=”4.33,631,1220227200″;
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    Subject: RE: 5km monthly temperature data
    Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:24:17 -0000
    X-MS-Has-Attach:
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    Thread-Topic: 5km monthly temperature data
    Thread-Index: AclJiQ1hd1gn+26wTPmIVwvaOEGhqwAquvrw
    From: “Hollis, Dan”
    To: “Colin Harpham”
    Cc: “Phil Jones” ,
    “Prior, John”
    X-Canit-CHI2: 0.00
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    Hello Colin,

    I admit that we have been inconsistent in our use of land/sea masks. Ian Simpson at UEA has highlighted similar issues with the monthly and daily rainfall grids, where three separate masks have been applied. I think this has come about because the various gridshave been generated as a result of a several different projects and different decisions were made in each project. This is clearly unsatisfactory and something I’m trying to sort out.
    The short answer to your question is that the 1961-2000 data are not available for a larger area. The background to this is as follows: – When we initially generate our grids they actually cover a much larger area than just UK land areas.- However, we do not use any data for marine areas in the interpolation and therefore consider the values over the sea to be of low quality. Consequently, prior to releasing the data to users, we apply a land/sea mask to remove the sea data points (albeit inconsistently!).
    – Grids that have been produced in the last few years have been archived without any masking. The mask is applied at the time the data are extracted from the archive. In the case of the pre-1961 and post-2000 temperature grids this mask included a 5km buffer around the coastline. – Unfortunately, all of the monthly and annual grids for 1961-2000 (i.e. the datasets produced 6 years ago for UKCIP02) were archived with a land/sea mask already applied. A coastal buffer was not included so consequently the area is smaller than for the more recent data (but should still cover all land areas). Short of re-running all of the UKCIP02 analysis (which we have no plans to do in the near future), there is no way to ‘unmask’ these grids.

    At some point in 2009, hopefully to coincide with the eventual release of UKCIP08, we will be upgrading the gridded data download page on our web site. The main enhancements will be the addition of daily temperature grids for 1960-2006, daily rainfall metrics for the same period (the daily rainfall grids themselves are a commercial product and will not be available for download) and time series versions of both the monthly and daily data. As the lack of a consistent land/sea mask is clearly causing users such as yourself and Ian some headaches, my intention is to ensure that all of the data available for download covers tha same area. Given that we are tied to the UKCIP02 mask for the 1961-2000 monthly data I am therefore using this for all other datasets. You will see from this that the area of the pre-1961 and post-2000 grids will actually decrease in order to achieve this rationalisation. Given the concerns raised in your email I suspect you will find this unsatisfactory but I hope you will understand why we are making these changes.

    On a related topic, if either you or any of your colleagues at UEA have requirements forEuropean-wide gridded climate data then you may be interested in the Showcase-EUROGRID project. This is a demonstration project looking at the practicalities of generating and distributing European-wide gridded data. Part of the work is a requirements-gathering exercise and there is a short questionnaire available for download on the project website ([4]http://www.e-grid.eu/public/ – the link is near the bottom of the page). Ifyou or anyone else at UEA would like to fill in the questionnaire then that would be much appreciated. Please send them to our group inbox ([5]NCIC@metoffice.gov.uk) rather than to me, ideally by the end of next week. Thanks.

    If you have any further questions then please get in touch.

    Regards,

    Dan

    Dan Hollis Climatologist
    Met Office Hadley Centre FitzRoy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United Kingdom
    Tel: +44 (0)1392 886780 Fax: +44 (0)1392 885681
    E-mail: dan.hollis@metoffice.gov.uk [6]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    From: Colin Harpham [[7]mailto:c.harpham@uea.ac.uk]
    Sent: 18 November 2008 14:22
    To: Prior, John
    Cc: Hollis, Dan; Phil Jones
    Subject: 5km monthly temperature data
    Dear John,

    I am working on the UKCIP08 weather generator which is interpolated to a 5km OSGB grid using 115 station data. In order to provide improved urban accuracy (our 115 stations include few if any urban) I have calculated offsets from the 5km MO monthly temperature data to adjust the weather generator runs, this works well.
    Unfortunately we have a problem, the 1961-2000 temperature data covers less land area than our grid. I have scrutinised earlier and later MO 5km data and both have larger areas of land coverage than the 1961-2000 data by as much as two extra cells round the coast. Has the 1961-2000 been updated in line with the earlier and later data format? If so how could I obtain it?

    Regards,
    Colin Harpham

    Dr Colin Harpham
    Senior Research Associate
    Climatic Research Unit
    School of Environmental Sciences
    University of East Anglia
    Norwich
    NR4 7TJ
    UK
    Tel: +44 -1603 593857
    Fax: +44 -1603 507784

    Prof. Phil Jones
    Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
    School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
    University of East Anglia
    Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk
    NR4 7TJ
    UK
    —————————————————————————-

    http://di2.nu/foia/foia2011/mail/0229.txt

    01

    • #
      Peter C

      I think you are onto something here clipe,

      No response except 1 red thumb. :-(

      It deserved better than that. I hope we can mine down and see what was going on there.

      01

  • #
    ScotsmaninUtah

    Trump is following through on his campaign pledges

    The world is about to change ..

    70

    • #
      Oliver K. Manuel

      I am very pleased that I voted for Trump.

      He obviously means to stop fraudulent science, disguised as “consensus science!”

      Earth’s climate is controlled by the pulsar that:

      1. Made all our elements
      2. Birthed the solar system 5Ga ago
      3. Sustains and now holds in vibration every atom, life and planets in the solar system.

      I have asked DJT to end all fake science based on Dr. Carl von Weizsacker’s flawed, 1935 definition of “nuclear binding energy” – Astronomy, astrophysics, climatology, cosmology, geology, nuclear, particle, planetary, solar, space and even theoretical physics !

      A 19-year old student at the Imperial University of Tokyo recognized Weizsacker’s error on 13 June 1936, but the error was inserted into physics textbooks after nations and national academies of sciences were united under the UN on 24 Oct 1945: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/TRIBUTE_TO_KURODA.pdf

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      PeterS

      Such a refreshing change to see a leader follow through with his promises. I wish we had such a leader in Australia.

      110

      • #
        Oliver K. Manuel

        I voted for Trump and have been pleased with his actions since entering office.

        I urge President Trump to ask his Science Advisor and the US National Academy of Sciences to publicly defend or denounce the logical error in Weizsacker’s definition of “nuclear binding energy.”

        30

        • #

          Oliver K. Manuel January 29, 2017 at 3:55 pm

          I voted for Trump and have been pleased with his actions since entering office.

          I urge President Trump to ask his Science Advisor and the US National Academy of Sciences to publicly defend or denounce the logical error in Weizsacker’s definition of “nuclear binding energy.”
          OK Oliver,
          I have heard of “nuclear binding energy.” yet have no concept of what that may possibly ‘be’. A H2 molecule does not wish to change, nor does some UF6 molecule!

          Can you please explain to us ‘idiots’ just what da hell might be “nuclear binding energy.”. Can you put such in terms of power\energy\action that are all the same thing; except for some weird point of view regarding time, or its conjugate? -will-

          00

    • #
      toorightmate

      I recommend CNN for some amusement at present.
      They are in meltdown in a big way.
      Anyone saying anything remotely positive about Trump is hastily cut off by the anchor.
      CNN is worse now than they were before the election – if you can believe that to be possible.

      20

  • #
    pat

    25 Jan: ABC 10 Local: Andrea Torres: Science guy joins push for Scientists’ March on Washington
    Bill Nye, better known as the Science Guy, expressed his support for the march, after the Trump administration mandated EPA specific studies and data to undergo review by political staff before public release.
    “Ordering the EPA or NASA not to talk about climate change isn’t going to cool things off,” Nye said in a tweet on Wednesday afternoon. Then he sent a message to the president:”Don’t double down on denial.”.
    The organizers of the NON-PARTISAN event set up a Google Form to look for volunteers to help plan the event…

    28 Jan: GatewayPundit: Jim Hoft: MORE HYPOCRISY: Obama banned all Iraqi refugees for 6 months in 2011 – Liberals SAID NOTHING
    TWEET: Donald J. Trump: Obama banned all Iraqi refugees for six months in 2011. Even those who aided our military. Media said nothing.

    progressive left Whitney is willing to speak some truths (altho he is still anti-Trump):

    26 Jan: Counterpunch: Mike Whitney: Double Standards: Where Were the Liberal Protestors During Obama’s Wars?
    Where were they?
    They were asleep, weren’t they? Because liberals always sleep when their man is in office, particularly if their man is a smooth-talking cosmopolitan snake-charmer like Obama who croons about personal freedom and democracy while unleashing the most unspeakable violence on civilians across the Middle East and Central Asia…
    The United States has been at war for eight straight years under Obama, and during that time, there hasn’t been one sizable antiwar march, demonstration or protest. Nothing…
    Can we agree that there is at least the appearance of hypocrisy here?…
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/01/26/double-standards-where-were-the-liberal-protestors-during-obamas-wars/

    28 Jan: OpEdNews: Mike Whitney: Game Over for Democrats?
    Obama created Trump, the man didn’t simply appear from the ether. Had Obama acted in good faith and kept his promises to shake up the status quo, end the foreign wars, restore civil liberties, hold Wall Street accountable or relieve the economic insecurity that working families across the country now feel, Hillary Clinton would have been a shoe-in on November 8th. As it happens, Obama made no effort to achieve any of these goals, which is why Hillary was defeated in the biggest political upset of the last century…
    Why hasn’t anyone in the DNC admitted their failure, admitted that they didn’t accurately gage the mood of the country or the hunger for change? Why haven’t they acknowledged that putting the most untrustworthy candidate of all time – a thoroughly dislikable, warmongering harridan — on the ticket was a mistake? Why?…

    It’s because this vile collection of corporate Dems who run the party are incapable of self reflection, right? It’s because the Podesta throng — who still hold the party in their death-grip — truly believe that bamboozling their base with Potemkin executives like Barack Obama, is a terrific model for running the government…
    What we are seeing is a fundamental change in the zeitgeist, which is “the defining spirit or mood of a particular period of history as shown by the ideas and beliefs of the time.”…
    How about a little self-examination, eh? How about clearing out the deadwood starting with crooked Hillary and her sleazy handler, Podesta? How about committing to a vision for change that’s more than a public relations scam aimed at hoodwinking your base? …
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Game-Over-for-Democrats-by-Mike-Whitney-Corruption_Democratic_Economy_Obama-170128-593.html

    60

  • #

    In the Spring of 2019, Californians will go to the polls in a historic vote to decide by referendum if California should exit the Union, a #Calexit vote.

    http://www.yescalifornia.org/

    Remember this.
    “These 23 Celebrities Said They’ll Leave The Country If Trump Wins”
    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/catherinedunn/2016/09/08/these-10-celebrities-say-theyll-leave-the-country-if-trump-is-elected-n2215391

    Did the wall just move north?

    50

  • #
    philthegeek

    Hmmm….interesting to compare the number of people killed in the US by people from the countries DLDonald has banned with the numbers killed by toddlers with guns. :) doGs but that man is an fwit.

    53

  • #
    PeterS

    Putin and Trump discussed joint fight against ISIS. Let’s watch the reaction by the left – they (including Obama and our own leftists here in the ALP and Greens) should be exposed as ISIS sympathisers, which is what they were all along. It will be interesting to see how LNP reacts to this.

    42

  • #
    pat

    28 Jan: Reuters: Trump puts five-year lobbying ban on his political appointees
    by Jeff Mason and Roberta Rampton
    President Donald Trump on Saturday put restrictions on the kind of lucrative lobbying gigs his White House aides and other administration officials can accept after they leave government.
    Trump, a Republican businessman whose campaign was based in part on getting rid of Washington insiders, had pledged during last year’s election campaign to “drain the swamp” of political practices that he said made politicians beholden to business interests.
    On his executive order making good on that pledge, Trump said his appointees would agree to refrain from lobbying their own agency for five years after leaving, and would not lobby any government appointee for two years.
    Trump’s order also requires his officials to agree to a lifetime ban on working on behalf of foreign governments or foreign political parties…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-ethics-idUSKBN15C0VX

    27 Jan: CNN: How Donald Trump changed the presidency in 7 days
    By Stephen Collinson
    (CNN’s Sara Murray, Jeff Zeleny, Laura Jarrett and Jeremy Diamond contributed to this report)
    Amid a torrent of action, disruption and protest, the new President’s moves on trade, immigration and foreign policy have honored his campaign promises — and dramatically reshaped Washington’s role in national and global affairs…
    Some things are clear at the end of this jarring week. Trump won’t have an epiphany and suddenly embrace Beltway conventions…
    ***But the determination to keep campaign promises is verging on an obsession inside the Trump White House.
    Those close to the President believe that despite the uproar in Washington, the actions are being well received…PLUS PLENTY OF FAKE NEWS
    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/27/politics/donald-trump-first-week/

    FANCY A POLITICIAN BEING OBSESSED WITH KEEPING CAMPAIGN PROMISES!

    30

  • #
    pat

    29 Jan: UKDailyMail: Trump’s snub for the Green Prince: US President ‘will avoid Charles on state visit to the UK because he wants to escape a lecture on climate change’
    Donald Trump’s visit to Britain has been hit by a row because he doesn’t want to meet with Prince Charles while he is in the country
    The pair disagree over climate change, with Charles an avenger of the cause
    But Trump has said it was created to make US manufacturing non-competitive
    by Simon Walters and Brendan Carlin for The Mail on Sunday
    The Prince, who wrote on climate change in last week’s Mail on Sunday, is said to regard Trump’s views on the issue as ‘appalling’ and is ‘relaxed’ about the prospect of not meeting him. ‘If the opportunity arises, the Prince would discuss the issue with the President ***in a courteous, respectful and candid way,’ said a well-placed source…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4167660/Trump-avoid-Charles-UK-visit-climate-change.html

    ***IN HIS USUAL ZEALOUS WAY, NO DOUBT.

    29 Jan: AP: Steve Peoples: Koch political network to spend $300M to $400M over 2 years
    The conservative Koch network plans to spend between $300 million and $400 million to influence politics and public policy over the next two years, intensifying its nationwide efforts in the initial years of Donald Trump’s presidency.
    Network officials disclosed their rough spending plans Saturday as donors gathered at a luxury hotel in the California desert. The investment, backed by the organization’s extensive nationwide network, positions the billionaire industrialist family to play a major role in the debate over several Trump priorities — even those they oppose.

    “We’re just getting started,” billionaire industrialist Charles Koch said at the opening reception for the weekend conference, which attracted more than 550 donors, each willing to donate at least $100,000 each year to the various conservative political and policy groups backed by the Koch brothers.

    Koch and many of his top donors refused to support Trump in the run-up to his election, raising questions about both his readiness for the job and his dedication to conservative principles. There were lingering signs of tensions as donors arrived on Saturday.
    Trump’s name was not mentioned by Koch — or the four other speakers — at the welcome reception…
    Several reporters, including one from The Associated Press, were invited to attend some of the forums. As a condition of attending, reporters were not permitted to identify any donors without their permission.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/koch-political-network-spend-300m-400m-over-2-001528120–election.html

    20

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      toorightmate

      If I was going to the UK, I think Prince Charles would be the last numbskull that I would want to meet.

      30

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    pat

    29 Jan: SMH: Adam Morton: Victoria to take on Turnbull with new climate target in wake of Hazelwood closure
    The Victorian government will pledge to cut the state’s greenhouse gas emissions by up to a fifth by 2020, putting it at odds with Canberra as the state positions itself as the national leader on tackling climate change.
    The target – a reduction of 15 to 20 per cent – will be achievable only because of the closure of the Hazelwood coal power station in March, announced by its French-majority owners last year. But it will also require other cuts through energy efficiency and renewable energy programs…

    Victorian Energy, Environment and Climate Change Minister Lily D’Ambrosio said 2016 was the hottest year on record, and the state wanted to maximise job and investment opportunities through a forward-thinking approach to tackling the problem.
    “The Paris agreement has been set and Victoria will continue to lead,” she said.
    “We hope that Malcolm Turnbull will stand with Victoria rather than climate deniers like Donald Trump and Cory Bernardi.”
    http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/victoria-to-take-on-turnbull-with-new-climate-target-in-wake-of-hazelwood-closure-20170127-gu0h6m.html

    28 Jan: UK Independent: Ian Johnston: Government facing legal action over failure to fight climate change
    Lawyers say ministers have been in breach of legal requirements to come up with a plan to make major cuts to the UK’s fossil fuel emissions for years – and further delays in its publication could be the final straw
    Britain has agreed to cut emissions by 57 per cent by 2032 but is currently nowhere near meeting that goal.
    The latest expert report predicted the target would be missed by 100 million tonnes of carbon dioxide – the equivalent of all the greenhouse gases currently produced by industry.
    The Government’s Emissions Reduction Plan was supposed to have been ready at the end of last year but the publication date was first put off until February and then again to the end of March.
    The Independent can now reveal the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS), which is responsible for climate change after Theresa May abolished the dedicated department, is no longer standing by this latest deadline…

    Environmental legal activists at ClientEarth had already put Theresa May on notice that it was considering legal action over the Government’s lack of progress on the issue, telling the Financial Times it had been breaking the law for several years…
    And climate lawyer Jonathan Church said if the March deadline was missed this could prompt them to go to court…
    ClientEarth has already successfully sued the Government for failing to come up with a plan to cut air pollution to within legally allowed standards…READ ON
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change-legal-action-emissions-reduction-plan-theresa-may-clientearth-a7550676.html

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    Speedy

    Shock horror!

    “In ten year’s time, most of the low-lying atolls surrounding Tuvalu’s nine islands in the South Pacific Ocean will be submerged under water as global warming rises sea levels.”

    March 29, 2001, CNN

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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      TdeF

      Drowning cities were a popular theme in the 1990s through to 2010. We have not heard much since as it is obvious to anyone enjoying summer at the beach that it is not true. All this from 0.8C alleged in 100 years when above latitude 40 temperature can vary by 80C from Summer to winter to summer without drowning anyone in coastal cities.

      It would be wonderful to put together all the Day After Tommorrow sea level predictions from the last 30 years including the ABC’s Robyn Williams 100 metres of sea over Sydney. Seriously, anyone in New York or Los Angeles or Hong Kong or Edinburgh can tell you it is hardly noticeable even in a lifetime. Further, as the Dutch can demonstrate, you can cope but there has been no need at all.

      The really strange achievement in weather prediction is the ‘extreme events’ prediction that while CO2 can not change the temperature all big weather events are entirely due to 50% more CO2. As Tim Flannery would have it, even create bushfires.

      This is without any evidence! There just the vague assertion that the models which are now in hindsight so inadequate and so wrong are adamant that this is true. Other than that, no evidence at all. Just statements without foundation.

      We need to challenge this extreme weather prediction. It is baseless. No evidence, no science and not even a wrong theory. A moon is made of Green cheese story, a fairytale. Also the rapid sea rise drowning cities.

      Really, we are thirty years on and still the media push rapid, runaway, tipping point, disastrous Global Warming, world ending Climate Change and carbon taxes. Why?

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    Speedy

    More bad news: “In ten year’s time, most of the low-lying atolls surrounding Tuvalu’s nine islands in the South Pacific Ocean will be submerged under water as global warming rises sea levels.”

    March 29, 2001, CNN:

    Cheers,

    Speedy

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    AndyG55

    Hilarious,

    Nick stokes post some Nuuk data on WUWT which totally destroys the AGW scam.

    https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/www.moyhu.org/2017/01/nuuk.png

    Note the MASSIVE drop in temps from 1940-1970.. which “didn’t exist”

    Also note that the transient of the 2015/16 El Nino spike has decayed to below average

    I think poor Nick must be finally waking up to reality. :-)

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    Mark M

    So much winning …

    Trump’s snub for the Green Prince: US President ‘will avoid Charles on state visit to the UK because he wants to escape a lecture on climate change’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4167660/Trump-avoid-Charles-UK-visit-climate-change.html

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    MadJak

    Yes it has been an intetesting week. I think I have a grip on whats going on here:

    1) Donald trump has masterfully been aprung into power by the very people who hate him (wall st, lamestream media, empty suits)
    2) he has done this through masterfully distracting them with tweets
    3) He has exposed the mainstream media for what it is. A group of empty suits with false dilusions of intellect
    4) The media hate him not for what he does but what he has heralded and proven – they’re oxygen thieves that can only regurgitate what they have been told to do. They believed they had power but not anymore
    5) The tactics of the left have been laid bare by the american ppl. The emperor has no clothes.
    6) as the left continue their rants they feed populism and nationalism like nothing else. They undermine their credibility until it is in tatters. Latest example being the ban on entry from 6 countries being portrayed as a ban on muslims
    7) as their credibility declines, people stop listening.
    8) people are fed up with engaging with left wing hysterical emotional reactionaries. This is one of the reasons polling for brexit and trump were so out of whack.
    9) The left have deluded themselves into thinking they’re smart and the ppl are a bunch of dumbasses. They think that a lack of engagement in debate is a sign of a lack of intellect when it is in fact a reaction to their hysterics and bs.
    10) we have now transcended left vs right politics. We live in an age where ppl believe a billionaire has more empathy and understnding of their plight than professional pollies who have never been out of the public service sanctuary for long.

    TBH. I don’t know where we will end up but the changes being taken to the systems of power are irreversible and we live in times similar to 100 years ago wbere the contempt for the autocratic systems of europe. A bi product of these changes is anarchy.

    Meanwhike I am enjoying seeing trump play his enemies and turn them into his strongest drivers. He’s playing them like puppet and they just can’t help but react hysterically.

    Thats my 2c worth. Interesting times….

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    Crakar24

    The local alarmist shrill put another letter in the paper, claiming co2 has God like powers. Umong the claims was the ijranki or something jelly fish loves warmer waters and qld tourism will soon be on its knees due to age.

    As if on cue 60minutes ran a story stating the same thing. A five minute echo chamber search revealed a 1 to 2 c rise in temps and the little buggars alone with the box jelly fish are cooked……what is wrong with these people. Do they just make stuff up or is doom and gloom outlooks imprinted in their DNA?

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      Crakar24

      A time loop as well as a spelling error….replace age with AGW

      Cheers

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      Robert Rosicka

      Seen the intro and switched channel , how long has this jellyfish been known to science and what is known of their natural range ?

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      Glen Michel

      I was stung by a Irakanji jellyfish on Fitzroy Island 1990 . A livid, evil hand-like mark on my back .My wife noticed it,but no real pain or discomfort other than mild nausea. Others experience great distress .

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    pat

    lengthy, but worth reading all:

    27 Jan: New American: William F. Jasper: Foundations: Cutting Off the Toxic Funding Flow
    If the deadly schemes of the giant tax-exempt foundations are to be stopped — and they must be — we must learn from the failed attempts of the past to bring them to account.
    According to a September 2015 article on George Soros in the journal Inside Philanthropy, the hedge fund billionaire had, by that time, given away about $12 billion through his Open Society Foundations (OSF). Much, if not most, of that has gone to “progressive” causes, including hundreds of organizations in over 100 countries. As we detail elsewhere (see here and here), many of these OSF grantees are fronts for, or close allies of, socialist and communist organizations promoting subversive agendas, including rioting and revolution. As the street riots, looting, and chaos have escalated, there has been a rising call to hold the wealthy funders of the ongoing havoc accountable for the social demolition and economic carnage their minions are causing.

    Under our tax laws, the huge foundations — OSF, Ford, Rockefeller, Gates, etc. — are tax-exempt because they supposedly perform a public, philanthropic service. Clearly, however, many of these institutions have grossly betrayed the public trust and deserve not only to have their tax-exempt privilege revoked, but also to have many of their top executives (and the “philanthropists” behind them) prosecuted for criminal activity as well. Such an undertaking will not be easy. With the many billions of dollars at their disposal, as well as the kept politicians and media allies (not to mention the armies of street radicals) they can depend on to come to their defense, we can be sure the foundations will put up a formidable fight…READ ALL
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/25201-cutting-off-the-toxic-funding-flow

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    philthegeek

    forget how precious..and essentially silly..the mods are here on occasion Fly. Good to see your still manning the barricades against free speech and opinion.

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      Phil seems more like the automated system delayed your comment at #33 above. So your vengeful paranoia (also an automated system)launched the nukes at the innocent, while demonstrating that you cannot understand the comment indenting.

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        hmmm. Looks like I do not understand the indenting either.

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        philthegeek

        Actually sluggy, dead wrong.

        With it being in moderation i see the mods reply and you dont. Although, the mods do rather automatically defend das Grupenthunk here so your partly on the right track

        Hey lucky i didn’t refer to DLDonald as the “Tangerine Tyrant” huh? Mods would probably have gone all scared and “18C” over an insult to Orange People?? :)

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      Raven

      There’s no ban on free speech, phil.
      If you like, there could be a ban on discussing items already debunked just like SkS?

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    pat

    full of mad and meaningless figures:

    29 Jan: AFR: Mark Ludlow: State-based renewable schemes to push up RET
    The Turnbull government is under renewed pressure to modify or scrap the Renewable Energy Target after a new report found ambitious state-based targets are likely to push the national target to the equivalent of 35 per cent by 2030.
    Federal Energy Minister Josh Frydenberg said the Coalition had no plans to amend the existing RET of 23 per cent by 2020, despite growing unrest in industry and the Coalition party room about the push towards clean energy.

    A new report by Melbourne-based carbon consultancy RepuTex released on Monday is likely to fuel concerns about the future direction of the RET. The report found ambitious state-based renewable targets by Labor governments in Queensland, South Australia, Victoria and the ACT will drive 55 terrawatt hours of new renewable capacity by 2030 – the equivalent of increasing the federal RET to 35 per cent by 2030…

    But Queensland Energy Minister Mark Bailey said the Palaszczuk Labor government was committed to its 50 per cent renewables target by 2050, even though clean energy only accounts for 7 per cent of its energy production. It claims it can reach the target in only 14 years and without any job losses or closures of coal-fired power stations…ETC
    http://www.afr.com/business/statebased-renewable-schemes-to-push-up-ret-20170127-gu077a

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  • #

    philthygeek. The owners of the trademark may have a problem. 18c would be intended more for those who belittle the holocaust victims by using “denier” as a religious shunning chant.

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    Mari C

    Today global warming brought me 4 inches of snow. I, and my chickens, are horribly disappointed in the current state of the warming phase, although my dogs loved it. (Northern hemisphere, near the Great Lakes, winter, blah blah blah – really, now, if the IPCC is right, I should be suffering under a balmy sky by now, yes?)
    Tomorrow is to bring more snow, and even colder temperatures than today.
    I am really disappointed.
    /snark

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    Another smart Aussie woman, Michele Simmons: “the efforts to make physics more appealing to girls have been a disaster”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4151966/Michelle-Simmons-says-HSC-curriculum-changes-horriying.html

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    David Maddison

    Good talk on Globull Warming Scam.

    https://youtu.be/T2iggJN4Etw

    01