JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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If only “free energy” was free. UK Govt spending £319bn on quest to change future weather

UK cost green energy, GWPF, Daily Mail, 2016.

(More at the Daily Mail)

UPDATE: Full GWPF report (PDF)

A bargain at half the price

The geniuses in the UK government decided to take £10,800 from every UK household to cool the world by a figure which, rounded to the nearest tenth of a degree, is 0.0 degrees C a century from now.

The Daily Mail:

Hot air: Bombshell report shows green levies backed by government will cost the economy £319bn by 2030

  • The radical shift to green, renewable energy will have cost £319bn by 2030
  • The huge sum is three times the annual NHS budget for England
  • The policy will be adding an average burden of £584 a year to every household by 2020 and £875 by 2030
  • Shocking report takes its calculations from official figures issued by government

The real cost to poorer families paying vastly higher electricity bills might be measured in terms of people choosing second best health options, putting off treatments, foregone holidays, going cold, and for some on the brink, perhaps divorce or worse. (It’s hard to imagine how forcing people to do £10k of pointless work will improve mental health stats).  If the UK government came knocking at doors asking for cash, how many households would choose to spend £500 – £800 a year to slow storms and hold back the tide for their grandchildren by a factor too small to measure?

Judging by what western citizens willingly donate to green causes and to offset their flights, we’re talking about very small number. Only half a percent of Australians are willing to voluntarily pay  5 or 6 c KWh more for Green energy.

Subsidies squared – when you need subsidies to rescue you from your subsidies

The artificial pricing for renewables has made the reliable cheap coal fired electricity uneconomic. So Britain now has to subsidize coal in order to keep the lights on over winter.

The Government on Friday awarded £1.2bn of subsidy contracts through its capacity market auction to companies that could help ensure Britain has the power it needs in four years’ time at the lowest cost.

Well, it’s nothing really. Just a billion here, a billion there…

Note that coal is so cheap even gas was unable to compete for the most part:

The Government is keen to see new gas plants built as a cleaner replacement for old coal plants, which it wants to shut by 2025. It hailed the capacity market as a success after securing the construction of two mid-sized gas plants, as well as a raft of new battery storage projects.

In total the Government said 1.5GW of new gas generation won. However, this was dwarfed by the 5.7GW of ageing coal plants that secured subsidies.

The figures are based on a soon to be released GWPF report:

The report, The Cost Of The Climate Change Act, is by Peter Lilley, the Conservative MP and former Trade Secretary. He was one of only three MPs who voted against the Act, piloted through Parliament by then Labour Energy Secretary Ed Miliband. The report will be published by the Global Warming Policy Foundation, the think-tank founded by Lord Lawson.

h/t Willie S and Pat.

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If only "free energy" was free. UK Govt spending £319bn on quest to change future weather, 9.1 out of 10 based on 103 ratings

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165 comments to If only “free energy” was free. UK Govt spending £319bn on quest to change future weather

  • #
    David Maddison

    A staggering amount of money.

    £319 billion = A$538 billion = US$401 billion

    372

    • #
      Dennis

      It’s only taxpayer’s monies, and the socialists know they can borrow more in our names.

      393

      • #
        David Maddison

        Well, borrow or print it.

        231

        • #
          tom0mason

          Printing it means devaluing pensions while squandering the next generation’s livelihood on today’s scªm schemes.

          191

          • #
            Analitik

            They’ve already printed/issued (sharehold parlance “diluted”) extra money under the quantitative easing schemes using to cushionbailout the banks from the shocks of the GFC. Along with zero/negative interest rates, that’s why all this money is available for gimcrack schemes that would get laughed out of any rational discussion.

            Welcome (but hopefully goodbye soon) to The Third Way

            But they future is already indebted for no gain except those receiving largesse from the CAGW and renewables schemes.

            142

          • #
            Radical Rodent

            Printing it means devaluing pensions while squandering the next generation’s livelihood on today’s scªm schemes.

            Yeah? So? You don’t think that they really are in the least concerned about that, do you?

            100

            • #
              clive

              The trouble with “Socialism”is eventually you run out of other peoples money.(Margaret Thatcher)

              130

              • #
                OriginalSteve

                Unless of course there is 45m of spare dosh sloshing aorund that has tobe spent by end of th efinancial year….which is weird of course…going back 100,000 years isnt enough? Heck they cant predict more than 4 days in advance for weather, how the dickens will 1,00,000 years help?

                Its just bonkers….

                http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-12/scientists-prepare-to-unveil-'holy-grail-of-climate-change'/8110380

                “Australian scientists in Antarctica have hailed a $45-million funding boost as a “game-changer” that would allow them to step up their search for the “holy grail of climate science” — the Million-Year Ice Core.

                More than 20 countries are in the race to find the ice core, which is like a time capsule deep below the surface of Antarctica that promises to unlock the past, and help predict the future of the Earth’s climate.

                Scientists have been extracting ice cores for decades. When ice freezes, it traps tiny bubbles of air, so these ice cores provide an archive of what the Earth’s temperature and carbon dioxide levels were like going back hundreds of thousands of years.”

                61

              • #
                Bulldust

                Steve you missed a very telling quote in the story:

                “We’re particularly interested in the link between CO2 and temperature,” he said.

                “We know for the last 800,000 years from ice cores that these two things march in lockstep but we don’t know what happened beyond that 800,000-year mark.”

                I know Al Gore “knows” that, but I thought scientists knew better…

                61

              • #
                David Maddison

                Ice records already go back 795,000 years and show CO2 lags temperature not leads it. What exactly is the point of trying to extend this record to just 1,000,000 years? Of course, it would be nice to have more data, but surely the scientific evidence that CO2 does NOT cause temperatures to increase is fully accepted by real scientists?

                What are they up to?

                http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/ice_core_co2.html

                31

        • #
          ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N

          Just don’t convert it to Francs. There aren’t enough numbers in the Decimal system.

          110

        • #
          toorightmate

          Who will print the money when the chief money printer steps down? (ie Oh Bummer).

          30

        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Well, borrow or print it.

          Either way it takes something out of the pocket of someone who earned it and essentially wastes it. The thing we need to do is get back control of our government’s ability to reach into our pocket and pull out a fist full of money any time they want to. And in all the places we’re talking about the people elected someone at some level like president or MP who could have had a different view of what his responsibility is — problem reduced in magnitude if not solved, just by a different attitude at the polls. So why don’t we do it? And I don’t know the answer except for maybe the possibility that an offer of free “goodies” overrides better judgment.

          20

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Under pressure from the electorate even the all powerful bankers could be changed or even eliminated. But before that can happen the voters need to understand what’s happening and clearly, not enough of them understand the problem.

            30

      • #
        Jeremy Poynton

        Would that it were just the Socialists. This is a Conservative government.

        101

        • #
          Tom O

          It depends on what they want to conserve, doesn’t it? If you want to “conserve” socialistic programs, then you are a conservative government, not necessarily a socialist one.

          10

      • #
        Manfred

        …they can borrow more in our names. Dennis 1.1

        Neither ‘borrowed’ (the monies or the work that are represented will never be returned, and there is no ‘return’), nor is it done in our name.
        Stealing is the word that readily springs to mind, one which accurately denotes the squandering, immoral, greedy rape of Western civilization. Is it a surprise? Perhaps not. 2011 figures suggest London has just slightly less CCTV’s (420,000) than Beijing (470,000).

        31

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        What is the answer to incompetent Socialism?

        More Socialism.

        Or put another way – they keep throwing money into a bottomless pit expeting it to fill up….that would be the definition of insanity.

        Marx himself was funded by the Elite to write his manifesto – as such, socialism isnt workable, its just a theory, and like most green nonsense, impractical, foolish and basically pointless….it ignores the reality of human behaviour, assumes all peopel are equal, and assumes every is happy in a sciety where the inate human trait of wanting to betteer yourself is ignored. Hey, the whole Leftie red rag stuff might be a giggle for a few years as a uni student, but beyond that its a cancer on human dignity.

        131

        • #
          Mark

          There were lively debates and social experiments during the first half of the nineteenth century that resulted in the thorough discrediting of socialism. Anyone who actively promoted it after that was ignoring a large body of thought and evidence. Anyone who thought of themselves as an intellectual could easily have found strong arguments against socialism. For some reason though, instead of at least proceeding cautiously with their experiments, they approached their socialist doctrines like a religion, and massacred vast populations and destroyed nations – Venezuela being the latest case in point.

          61

          • #
            OriginalSteve

            Socialism always has “the cuse” or “the fight” and whips people up into a frenzy so people have a tendency to follow along in the excitement and “purpose” of it, without actally stopping an asking whats going on. I agree it is a religious system – none may question it, ergo it is a cult.

            41

      • #
        Whalehunt Fun

        On the other hand , might it cost less to eliminate the global warming liers. Surely a Royal Commission, some vicious retrospective legislation and a quick google search of who said what could readily imprison all the liars for life plus a further ten years for their remains. Criminalising the consorting with the liars would catch a bunch more for locking permanenetly up.

        41

    • #
      Ted O'Brien.

      Never imagine that this might be the final figure.

      120

      • #
        ivan

        With any government scheme you can take the quoted figure and multiply it by 3 or 4 to get the actual final cost. At least that is how government IT works and I don’t se any reason that this will be any different (just look at the rising cost of the smart meter rollout).

        80

        • #
          bobl

          Queensland health payroll springs to mind, Quoted at $200M now at $1.2B and rising. What a disaster. Part of the problem there is IT management pretending to be engineers.

          50

          • #
            David Maddison

            The submarine project is quoted at $50 billion, with no plans. I hate to think what that will blow out to. Especially as the concept of taking a nuclear submarine and downgrading it to a fossil power submarine has never been done before.

            Further, how can you build something like this on unreliable windmill power? If you lose power in the middle of a hull weld I think you’d have to start over again as it has to be finished in one motion.

            And then there’s militant unions on top of that!

            60

            • #
              toorightmate

              Qld Health and SA Submarines fiascos are chicken feed compared with the financial disaster that will be the NBN

              50

              • #
                Ted O'Brien.

                I have seen no sign that anybody has comprehended just what the NBN was meant to be, what it has done.

                The NBN was foisted on our construction sector at a time when the construction sector was already fully employed servicing a mining boom, ostensibly to provide a service that was already being constructed anyway. Unemployment was at historically low levels.

                Competing in this market for resources the NBN maximized not only its own cost, but also the cost of every construction job being undertaken in. Australia. And that was its primary purpose, to maximize costs, to promote inflation, to destroy private capital by inflation.

                Remember that the first major economic announcement by the first Rudd government was the monstrous lie that “Howard has let the inflation genie out of the bottle”. Clearly a lie, this statement brought the message that the new government intended to engage in inflationary policy and blame the inflation on Howard.

                30

  • #
    Egor TheOne

    Free Energy? Do Solar Panels and WindMills now grow on trees?

    It appears to me that there are some very nasty undesirables making a lot of money from this ‘free energy’!

    I would be very weary of anything, that is claimed by a politician to be ‘free’!

    Or is it ‘free’, but only for there buddies and campaign major funders?

    And by how much has all this reduced the average global temperature by, and will such a temperature reduction of thousandths of a degree ever be measurable?

    Seems to me its the Old ‘Trust Us’ trick on a massive scale!

    402

    • #
      Dennis

      One of many questions I would like answered is how much money has been spent (taxpayer funded) subsidising so called renewable energy?

      The added amounts to consumer bills, the subsidies for people and businesses that install solar systems or other, etc.

      603

      • #
        Egor TheOne

        Dennis,

        It appears that someone has even ‘red thumbed’ your question!

        Therefore, it follows that that question is not even allowed to be asked.

        How convenient for some, that would be!

        483

      • #
        OriginalSteve

        I always pose the throny question of the reality that CAGW cant be proven scientifically.

        And with renewables, how the “feel good” factor caused the SA blackout, not solid engineering….

        “Do not reprove a scoffer, lest he hate you, Reprove a wise man, and he will love you”
        ( Prov 9:8 )

        “Do not speak in the ears of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words.”
        ( Prov 23:9 )

        It is better to listen to the rebuke of a wise man, Than for one to listen to the song of fools.
        ( Ecclesiastes 7:5 )

        “Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but one who hates correction is stupid.”
        ( Prov 12:1 )

        40

        • #
          Carbon500

          Original Steve: I’ve always thought this extract from the poem ‘Desiderata’ to be very apt, particularly in these internet days:
          ‘…..even the dull and the ignorant,they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
          they are vexations to the spirit.’

          10

      • #
        Jeremy Poynton

        Read the GWPF report linked to at the top of the article.

        10

    • #
      Dennis

      I recall when journalist Andrew Bolt quizzed Tom Foolery about how much the temperature would not rise if all nations complied with the climate change spending demands. The grudgingly given answer was a fraction of one degree C within one thousand years.

      593

    • #
      MudCrab

      One of my crowning achievements in saving the world from warmists was getting one of my Green friends (and by Green I mean in the literal ‘name on senate ticket’ political sense) to agree with me when I said that wind farms don’t grow on trees.

      Unfortunately one of the few things I did get her to agree with me on, but small steps, small steps.

      40

  • #
    tom0mason

    As Britain joins the EU lemmings in one vast experiment in failing to ‘save the world’ (as this function is not required), by killing their industries and many citizen through enacting communist economics theories. By overpricing one the basics of civilization (electricity) nearly everything else will follow the price escalation.

    Mme. Christine Legarde will be so proud.

    352

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      I think as it gets worse, the french revolution equivelent will spread world wide.

      At that point he Elite will have to work out whether to have another global war to distract people, or release soemthing nasty across the planet to cull humans who waant the Elites blood ( literally ) …. please note I am *not* advocating this or violence of any form.

      As a student of history you realise eventually if you tighten the screws up too much, something has to give. Good thing the Elite have been pumping paramilitary gear into police forces for decades now…now why whould that be?

      50

      • #
        rapscallion

        Yeah, you’re a suspicious old git like me then, and with good reason. I’ve also noticed the gradual militarisation of the Police Forces across Europe. The UK police force is as far removed from the traditional “Bobby” as it is possible to be. Whilst I hate to generalise, most of the one’ that I’ve come across appear to be under-educated, thuggish authoritarians who love nothing more that putting Joe Public in his place, preferably violently. They carry ever more equipment and do less than ever before. The Police is now used to protect the state and not the public.

        20

  • #
    Peter C

    Up till now the governments have told us that renewable energy will save money. Now the truth is coming out we may find that priorities will change.

    Cory Bernardi and some other rationalists forced a backdown by Turnbull on another carbon tax. Next we need an attack on subsidies for renewable energy sources.

    UK politicians may be bold enough to push back as well especially after the Brexit vote.

    403

    • #
      Greg Cavanagh

      Now the truth is coming out we may find that priorities will change.

      LOL
      You’re so funny. They double down on their incompetence and try to force their scheme to work. It’s not that their scheme was a bad idea, somehow it didn’t get implemented efficiently.

      40

  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    The political classes, throughout the western world, have totally lost the plot. They have removed themselved from the average working family so completely, that they cannot relate to them.

    “Those who do not understand history, are doomed to repeat it”. The political class in Europe (it is not just the UK) seem to think that they have everything under control, and the working classes have never had it so good. But it is all reruns, of the reruns, of what didn’t work last time. It is a pretty dense kid, who hasn’t figured that out by the time they are ten.

    Brexit was a warning shot for Europe. The American people, electing a President who was not on a party ticket, is a warning shot as well.

    462

  • #
    Egor TheOne

    The Coalition go on about ‘MediScare’ from Carbon Bill’s economic vandals!

    What about ‘ClimateScare’?

    All this CAGW nonsense and associated heavily subsidized so called renewables racket needs to be shut down and the shifty Paris fiasco CAGW true b’lvers so called agreement needs to be torn up and incinerated……a very worthwhile co2 addition!

    In fact use that Paris BS agreement to light up a brand new beautiful big black coal fire powered generator.

    We need more co2, and less, much less BS!

    382

  • #

    Perhaps replace those old coal fired plants with new coal fired power plants.

    I think that this is what they mean by, umm, dare I even say it …..‘clean coal!’

    Link to image

    Two units, each of 1000MW, so 2000MW, just HALF of Australia’s wind power, and yet in one year, these two units will deliver 1.75 times the power of all those wind towers.

    562

    • #
      David Maddison

      And those ultra supercritical units will deliver power cheaply, reliably, 24 hours per day regardless of the weather and release to the atmosphere only life-giving CO2.

      462

    • #
      Peter C

      Clean Coal! Yes it looks very clean and shiny. Not a speck of soot anywhere.

      160

    • #
      Mark M

      World’s first ‘clean coal’ commercial power plant opens in Canada. Coal is going nowhere.

      http://blogs.nature.com/news/2014/10/worlds-first-clean-coal-commercial-power-plant-opens-in-canada.html

      90

      • #
        David Maddison

        What a waste of plant food. The CO2 should be dumped into the atmosphere, not buried at huge energy expense.

        211

      • #

        Be very careful what you believe when you read articles like this. (from 2014)

        Note the careful wording here, where it says (just the one word) capture, because the process is not storing the ‘captured’ CO2 anywhere. It is onselling the CO2.

        90% of the CO2 is captured from the one unit, and is used in enhanced oil recovery, where almost all of that captured CO2 is then released back into the atmosphere as part of the oil recovery process where this CO2 is used.

        Note that while it says that this is the largest coal fired power plant (for this Company) in Canada, only one unit at the plant has the process attached as part of a demonstration, which has since been shown to have serious design flaws, which the Company is not inclined to rectify.

        That one unit was a retro fitted old unit due for closure. A new generator was fitted to this unit and was rated at 140MW. The CO2 capture process alone reduced this usable output down to 110MW, so just half the CCS process to capture 90% of its CO2 uses 22% of the total power from just this one unit.

        It has been fraught with problems ever since it began operations and is more often closed than operational, and operations average around 30% of the time.

        And all this for the bargain basement cost of only $1.3 Billion.

        CCS, Carbon Capture and Storage is an ephemara which while touted (by everyone except engineers) as the coming thing, will NEVER be achieved on the scale required. It is what is sometimes referred to as a Money pit. It would be cheaper to bulldoze money into the ‘hole in the ground’ than to fill it with CO2. Greenies point to it as the only way they will accept new coal fired plants, because the one thing it does do is to dramatically increase to cost of coal fired power, almost to the point where wind power (after subsidies) is almost as cheap as CCS coal fired power.

        Tony.

        461

        • #
          ianl8888

          … everyone except engineers …

          And geologists, Tony. You have a blind spot there, I’m afraid.

          We geos are fully aware that “storage” is the key Pollyanna component – cannot be done economically on the continual scale needed.

          Use USC technology for replacement coal-fired power stations.

          221

          • #
            bobl

            Nah, I’m an Engineer and I just love stored CO2…. In beer, and other useful carbonated beverages.

            Storage is possible, in the same place it is naturally stored now, if you filtered it into the ocean you could store it as carbonic acid for the little sea creatures to turn into calcium carbonate. I am not particularly in favour of that though because the CO2 doesn’t get processed into oxygen and food.

            Another idea I had was to release the CO2 from underground pipes like a t-tape irrigation system below farms. You could probably arrange it that say 50% of it gets turned into food and oxygen before it gets into the atmosphere. Especially effective for cereal crops like corn which are pretty CO2 limited most of the time.

            80

            • #
              ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N

              I am not particularly in favour of that though because the CO2 doesn’t get processed into oxygen and food.

              Isn’t oceanic CO2 still absorbed by ocean plants, creating food? Do the plants then exhale oxygen? Correct me if I’m wrong..

              40

              • #
                Manfred

                The Greens haven’t sought to napalm the entire planet – yet. Perhaps they haven’t cottoned on? Plants respire at night, producing CO2. Or perhaps they intend to ‘ban’ the night instead? They could install a kollectiv of geostationary mirrors? No night for awhile should put an immediate end to the perceived problem of atmospheric CO2.

                20

              • #
                OriginalSteve

                Manfred, the greens are just a bunch of useful idiots who dont relaise they are being manipulated by communists…

                I recall back in the 1990s peopel were asking “where did all the communists go?” meaning they had been quiet-ish. Now we know – they were busy doing what they do best – infiltrating the green movement and causing trouble and problems for the rest of the world. McCarthy had is almost right – ban communists from holding any position of power ( bye bye obummer ) and keep a very close eye on them.

                I think when you get a group of peole basically dedicated to causing unrestrained choas within a society, you need to be vigilent. The relaity that they have infiltrated and control the press and many institutions is a black mark against the West, who has got soft and complacent.

                100

              • #
                bobl

                Oceanic plants do, but the oceanic animals turn it into calcium carbonate locking up the O2.

                Manfred, the green blob already tried to exploit this when the Libs tried direct action saying that lifecycle wise plants were neutral to CO2 because the CO2 they absorb all eventually becomes CO2 again. Of course one wonders how we got so much Oxygen in the atmosphere in that case – Greens are so scientifically illiterate, they’ll believe almost anything.

                Still if you want to sequester CO2 feed it to plants and then eat it.

                40

          • #
            James Murphy

            That reminds me of the CCS project tied in with the Gorgon gas development in WA. It was supposed to store a large volume of CO2 (touted as the biggest CCS project in the world a few years ago) in a deep saline aquifer, at least the number looked large on paper, but in reality, it will never store any significant percentage of CO2. The exploratory wells on Barrow Island were probably the most interesting wells I’ve seen, given that they were focussed on data gathering, rather than drilling to hit a target as fast as possible.

            Anyway, it doesn’t really matter, because all that gas is sold overseas, and we all know that CO2 generated in other countries is nowhere near as bad as Australian-made CO2.

            60

            • #
              Alan

              Think you missed the boat a little James.

              From here and here

              The project started construction on 15 September 2009. The carbon dioxide injection wells were spudded in mid-2013, and injection operation is expected to be commissioned in the first half of 2017

              The Carbon Dioxide Injection Project will inject and store reservoir CO2 into a deep reservoir unit more than two kilometres beneath the ground – reducing Gorgon’s greenhouse gas emissions by approximately 40 per cent.

              My understanding is that the reservoir is a depleted oil/gas reservoir not a saline reservoir. Depleted reservoir injection of CO2 is nothing new.

              The whole requirement for the need to sequester CO2 from a naturaL gas is interesting in itself. The Gorgon field gas contains about 14% CO2 and would be vented if not sequested. Currently when you read about how “clean” gas is compared to coal this is at combustion and the vented gas is not included in these calculations.

              50

              • #

                Just think, if a new plant like Bayswater was commissioned with CCS, just the one plant, they would only need to sequester, forever, underground, never to be released back to the surface, an amount of CO2 of, umm, 21,450,000 tonnes of CO2 per year, and with a projected lifespan of 50 years, a total of only 1,072,500,000 Tonnes.

                More than ONE BILLION TONNES of CO2, just for the ONE power plant.

                Umm, good luck with that!

                See now why it will never be accomplished.

                Tony.

                60

              • #
                ivan

                You must also remember that CCS uses at least 25% of the output of the plant it is getting the CO2 from. This makes ant plant using it borderline economic at the best, at the worst it becomes totally uneconomic to run it.

                10

              • #
                James Murphy

                Alan,
                I agree, enhanced oil recovery has been around for donkeys years, i don’t get your point though, as the CCS aspect of gorgon is about storage, not about EOR. The idea is to trap the CO2 in a deep saline aquifer “permanently”, or at least for an extremely long time. The official figure is “> 1000 years”, as it happens.

                They will be injecting CO2, and recovering water – between 46 and 63% of the volume of CO2 injected. The water comes from an aquifer, strangely enough… they will also be managing pressure (via pressure management wells) within the Dupuy formation to (try to) avoid formation damage, and subsequent ‘uncontrolled’ gas migration.

                I suggest that before you tell me I “missed the boat”, regarding a project with which I plays a small, but useful part when they were drilling a data gathering well on Barrow Island, that you do some basic, but constructive research on the matter.
                Perhaps you could look here:
                http://www.ga.gov.au/webtemp/image_cache/GA16243.pdf

                and even here too:
                http://www.cagsinfo.net/pdfs/workshop2/Session-4/Gorgon-Project.PDF

                As for the amount of CO2 injected, 3.4-4 million tonnes a year sounds impressive, but really, compared to the CO2 released from burning the produced gas, it’s insignificant, and irrelevant.

                10

              • #
                Alan

                Hope this doesn’t appear twice as it did a disappearing act half way through.

                Ok first Tony, I agree that 20 Mt/yr CO2 is a lot, my figures are a bit lower based on 8Mt coal/yr X 2.2 tonnes CO2/tonne coal, but we won’t argue about that. What is critical though is that Bayswater is 40 year old technology, commisioned in 1985-86. Advanced ultra-critical technology currently being installed can increase efficiency by about 45% and reduce CO2 emmisions by about 40%, but Tony you would already know that. And Ivan that is without CCS and the numbers you refer to are related to reto-fitting not new technology. The other critical point is that CO2 is injected as a suprcritical fluid (310C and 73 atm) so volume is more important than tonnage.

                A quote I like from the World Coal Association (WCA is this – “High efficiency low emission (HELE) coal-fired power generation mitigates more CO2 emissions than renewables per dollar of investment and by 2040, 1.1 billion tonnes of CO2 per year could be avoided by deploying HELE technologies.” That really makes the greenies turn red.

                James yes I am familiar with those articles and many more, but thanks. The reason I said that you had ‘missed the boat a little’ was that you stated, “It (Gorgon) was supposed to store a large volume of CO2 (touted as the biggest CCS project in the world a few years ago) in a deep saline aquifer, at least the number looked large on paper, but in reality, it will never store any significant percentage of CO2.” But hold on, ‘injection operation is expected to be commissioned in the first half of 2017′, so do you know something that the Gorgon (i.e. Chevron) reservoir engineers don’t know or aren’t telling us?

                But what I would really like to know is how do the full cycle CO2 emmissions of using a gas such as Gorgon at 14% CO2 compare with advanced ultra-critical coal-fired generation? You won’t find a gas promoter rushing to compare as they only like to mention “on ignition”.

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              • #
                Alan

                The supercritical CO2 is 31 deg C and 73 atm – I must have missed the superscript

                00

        • #
          Radical Rodent

          Greenies point to it as the only way they will accept new coal fired plants, because the one thing it does do is to dramatically increase to cost of coal fired power, almost to the point where wind power (after subsidies) is almost as cheap as CCS coal fired power.

          Which is precisely the reason why Greenies want it.

          Don’t worry – the moment that they realise that they cannot get their daily dose of Neighbours, Neighbours, Neighbours or even Home and Away, and that they cannot afford to heat their homes in winter and the cost of cooking exceeds the cost of the food itself, their attitudes will change.

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        • #
      • #
        Kneel

        The ONLY CCS scheme that has a chance of working, from both engineering and financial sides, at the scale required and time-frames suggested, is biological – algae can be fed flue gas CO2 and concentrated sunlight. With the right algae that can be harvested for liquid fuels (oil for diesel, eg) or animal feed, you are actually producing something useful (= $ income) too!

        20

      • #
        Jeremy Poynton

        Read the report. It talks about this. It’s a farce.

        10

    • #
      toorightmate

      Strategically place a jumbo coal fired power station in the Riverina where an enormous thermal coal deposit exists Rio Tinto).
      The location allows it to feed NSW, Vic and SA.
      This proposal would be both sensible (Hey, who wants to be sensible?) AND low capital and operating costs (but who’s worried about costs?).

      251

  • #
    Hasbeen

    There but for the grace of THE MINING UNIONS sitting on Palaszczuk’s head go I/we/us.

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  • #
    Ruairi

    Should power be costed as free,
    If each household is charged a huge fee,
    Paying U.K.’s grand bill,
    To achieve global chill,
    Of point zero of just one degree?

    412

  • #
    gowest

    Yet another government project, yet another 30 plus solar panel purchased from China end up on yet another taxpayer funded roof top. What happens next is the worst – they export this free energy (for them) to us at 24c/kwhr – talk about a price markup! Then they go sell all the poles and wires so the energy transfer mobs can get in on the price markup action as well. The taxman is out of control in Australia. Add that to your financial models (if you dare!).

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  • #
    John Robertson

    Proving once again, that to create a shortage in abundance takes government bureaucracy.
    Want a shortage of sand in the desert? Put government in charge.
    Kleptocrats are vandals, fools and bandits are the best they can aspire to.

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  • #
    theRealUniverse

    Also the daily connection charge here (in OZ) is appalling, regardless of how its generated.

    82

    • #

      That connection charge is generating the only real “tipping point” I’ve seen – makes a diesel generator/standby battery charging unit viable for me, I’m just trying to pick up the right 2nd hand unit, I want to be able to run my 3 phase workshop gear as well, so maybe 25kW..

      Also, I can’t yet find the 24v LED house downlights I want, they all come with the useless 240v transformer which I don’t need. Once I have the whole house light system running off battery, my bore pump running off solar (they finally made a quantum jump in efficiency by chucking the 240v 50hz bottleneck, just made a pump that works with a range of panel output, nothing else can connect but they look really good, great performance). I just use the water when its “free” (I did have to buy the system..) and keep a high tank full for dark hours pressure. Then I will pay my last bill and the large disconnection fee, and I’m free of the coming mess (personally, of course I will share in it as our economy goes down the gurgler.. but I won’t be sitting in the dark)

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      • #
        theRealUniverse

        The joke is that you pay just because you have one of ‘their’ lines passing your property!

        50

        • #
          Dennis

          I wonder if they would allow me to charge local residents for a food supply shop located nearby, a convenience not needed store?

          20

      • #
        Peter C

        Emperor!
        <blockquote. Then I will pay my last bill and the large disconnection fee, and I’m free

        I hope that you are free. We would all like to be free.

        We all have to chuck over the yoke together. Otherwise none of us are free!

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    • #
      tom0mason

      How little of the ‘lessons learned’ have actually been understood by many. Enron is the case here –

      Enron cynically and knowingly created the phony California electricity crisis of 2000 and 2001.

      There was never a shortage of power in California . Using tape recordings of Enron traders on the phone with California power plants, the film chillingly overhears them asking plant managers to “get a little creative” in shutting down plants for “repairs.”

      Between 30 percent and 50 percent of California’s energy industry was shut down by Enron a great deal of the time, and up to 76 percent at one point, as the company drove the price of electricity higher by nine times.

      Its European operations filed for bankruptcy on November 30, 2001, and it sought Chapter 11 protection in the U.S. on December 2.

      From http://www.corporatenarc.com/enronscandaloverview.php

      Is not that the same effect that Western Government are doing?
      Ratcheting up the price by ‘improving’ reliability, all the while destroying it. Spiking the customer’s bills for just more profit and no improvement, then walking-off saying ‘nothing else can be done’? Willfully profiteering on customer’s ignorance of the facts.

      Unfortunately these state legislators and Government entities will not go bust, however the poorer in society will carry the burden, while the rest get gouged with ever higher bills.

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  • #
    Mark M

    UK Govt spending £319bn on quest to change future weather

    It must be working:

    WASHINGTON -– [Doomsday Global Warming] is no longer a distant threat, but a real and present danger in the United States, according to a government report issued Tuesday.

    “Record fall harvest expected for Kansas farmers”
    http://www.kake.com/story/33153175/record-fall-harvest-expected-for-kansas-farmers

    “Experts are predicting record corn & soybean yields throughout much of WI, thanks to a near-perfect growing season”
    http://www.nbc15.com/content/news/Wisconsin-producers-should-enjoy-record-corn-soybean-crops-400182921.html

    Bumper Black Sea sunflower harvest
    http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/14762749.Bumper_Black_Sea_sunflower_harvest/

    Another Quiet Tornado and Hurricane Season.
    Al Gore Hardest Hit
    https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/11/20/another-quiet-storm-season-al-gore-hardest-hit/

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  • #
    Phillip Bratby

    The UK needs a Donald Trump. Wait, we have one – he’s called Nigel Farage. But instead we are stuck with the old guard of the establishment elite, like Teresa May.

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    • #
      theRealUniverse

      UK (Labor party) has Jeremy Corbyn, Piers’ brother..isnt that good enough? ;)

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        Another Ian

        You should have warned PB to cover his keyboard!

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      • #
        Graeme No.3

        theRealUniverse:
        Analogy:
        Sometimes it is necessary to purge your intestine. This is done with chemicals which are mildly toxic and which the body eliminates rapidly. Cyanide is so toxic that the body dies before it can be eliminated so you shouldn’t use it.
        When most of his own parliamentary colleagues reject Corbyn as too toxic, should you use it?

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      • #
        Phillip Bratby

        I know Piers. Unfortunately Jeremy doesn’t listen to his older and more clever brother when it comes to science. Jeremy will be remembered as the person who killed the Liebour Party and allowed the Conservative establishment to carry on with its mad climate change policy. The lunatics remain in charge…..

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        • #
          theRealUniverse

          Graeme No.3 Thanks I’ll remember that analogy ;) , and Phillip yep (not surprised) the lunatics will always remain in charge..but for the few that want to hear what the British lunatics are up to, listen to http://windowsontheworld.net/ Piers appears on it quite often.

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        • #
          Margaret Smith

          “Phillip Bratby
          December 11, 2016 at 8:22 pm · Reply
          …conservative establishment to carry on with its mad climate change policy. The lunatics remain in charge”

          The Climate Change Act was Labour’s baby and they are still wedded to it. But let’s face it – politicians love power!

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  • #
    David Maddison

    When Al Gore was born there were 7,000 polar bears.

    Now thanks to globull warming and subsequent habitat loss there are only 30,000 left.

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  • #
    pat

    first, most of you will have heard what is great news for many in regional Queensland:

    6 Dec: Indian Express: PTI: Adani to start work at Australia mine by mid-2017
    Indian energy giant Adani said it will start construction at the 21.7 billion dollars Carmichael mine in Australia by the middle of next year and vowed to give priority local workers for the project, which is expected to generate some 10,000 jobs. The announcement came a day after Adani secured the final approval for a permanent rail line for the controversy-hit project despite protests from green groups…
    “We want to start construction in the middle of next year,” Adani Australia chief executive Jeyakumar Janakaraj told reporters after meeting with Queensland state Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk in the city of Townsville.
    “There will be early works we plan to start in the quarter of June-July and we would want to start the main works from the last quarter of the year.”…
    Janakaraj said Townsville would become Adani mining’s regional headquarters, while the Mackay-Bowen area would become the regional headquarters for its rail and port operations…
    The company said its shift to the regional Queensland centres would allow it to more directly harness the skills and enthusiasm of the local industries, local communities and workforce…
    “Adani group is committed to nation building projects in the energy and infrastructure space which will create thousands of jobs in regional Queensland and alleviate millions in India of poverty,” he added.
    Janakaraj said, “This is a significant commitment by Adani to regional Queensland where the Carmichael mine and associated projects will generate 10,000 jobs directly and indirectly, and I am pleased that each of the regional centres will benefit from the Carmichael projects.”…
    http://indianexpress.com/article/business/companies/adani-to-start-work-at-australia-mine-by-mid-2017-4412920/

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    pat

    so why is this Adani story in today’s papers, given we’ve had enough negativity from CAGW activists in recent years:

    ‘There’s no way the project will proceed’
    Courier Mail-20 hours ago

    the headline has been changed in all News Corp entities to:

    11 Dec: HeraldSun: Adani Carmichael megamine not a dead certainty, claim critics
    by Daryl Passmore, Sunday Mail
    It is hard to overstate the vital importance of the Adani energy conglomerate’s $21.7 billion Carmichael mine, rail and port project to Queensland’s economic future…
    Frank Gelber, chief economist with BIS Shrapnel, firmly believes Adani’s initiative will join the list of “what ifs”.
    “It’s pie in the sky,’’ he said.
    “There’s no way the project will proceed. Certainly, it will not go ahead in this decade, and probably not the next one either. The financial feasibility just does not work.”
    The volatile international coal price would have to remain at boom-high levels of over $US120 ($161) a tonne for a prolonged period to support a business case.
    Tim Buckley, of the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis, gave evidence in legal actions by opponents of the Adani project and says India is planning dramatic reductions in foreign coal imports over the next few years as the country cranks up its domestic production, while the country is moving rapidly to renewables, reflected in Adani refocusing on solar projects.
    An Adani spokesman countered: “As India’s largest coal exporter and largest solar generator, we make careful assessments of the future ­energy market.’’
    The company says it will supply coal to power stations run by other divisions of its own group, mitigating many of the risks…
    Mr Buckley says the Adani group is among the most highly leveraged companies in India with net debt across the group of about $15 billion.
    More than a dozen major international financiers have ruled out providing funds for the project…
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/adani-carmichael-megamine-not-a-dead-certainty-claim-critics/news-story/2af3939d7e463dcfb0ae650532e14e76

    media darling Tim Buckley isn’t even quoted – his opinions are the same old nonsense we’ve heard previously and, oddly, it would seem the Gelber/BIS Shrapnel quotes seems to come from ABC RN Drive of 6 Dec. Gelber literally mocks the project from start to finish:

    Karvelas: it won’t go ahead?
    Gelber: no. it’s pie in the sky.
    Karvelas: will it employ thousands?
    Gelber: it would, if it proceeded. it would be a whole different world before that project goes ahead.
    Karvelas: doubts among many economists that Adani will go ahead, in the next ten years anyway.

    AUDIO: 10mins28secs: 6 Dec: ABC RN Drive: Does Adani’s Carmichael Coal project stack up financially? on RN Drive
    with Patricia Karvelas on RN
    https://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pgwOVk1NBG?play=true

    more to come.

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  • #
    pat

    BIS Shrapnel were “shilling” for $10 billion for renewables in May!

    2 May: SMH: Angela Macdonald-Smith: Renewable energy target in doubt as $10b investment needed
    In research to be released on Monday, BIS Shrapnel has determined it is “highly doubtful” the 2020 target of 33,000 gigawatt-hours of renewable energy output can be achieved given the stalling of investment over the past few years that means a huge catch-up effort is required. It expects the goal may only be reached one or two years late…
    Some 4850 megawatts of wind farms and solar power plants need to be installed to meet the deadline, with most expected to be built in NSW, Queensland and Victoria, the research firm found. It calculates that though $340 million of investment has been committed to new projects, another $10 billion is needed…
    Eastern Bloc
    In a document called Power Shift, also released on Monday, the (Clean Energy) council proposes measures to ensure the “orderly” closure of heavy-emitting coal plants, which chief executive Kane Thornton said were “more at home in the Eastern Bloc” than in Australia.
    “As these plants phase out, Australia can take advantage of our world-class sun, wind, waves and bio-energy that will deliver the lowest-cost form of new electricity generation,” Mr Thornton said. The document says regulated emissions limits or emissions trading could be used to drive plant closures…
    The release of the documents follows the Labor Party’s low-emissions strategy plan, announced last week, which includes a proposed 50 per cent target for renewable energy by 2030…
    Adrian Hart, senior manager for BIS Shrapnel’s infrastructure and mining unit, said investment in large-scale renewable energy had lagged the rest of the world in recent years…
    http://www.smh.com.au/business/energy/renewable-energy-target-in-doubt-as-10b-investment-needed-20160428-gohsyo.html

    subscription required for the report.
    question: who commissioned the report?

    May 2016: BIS Shrapnel: $10 Billion Needed (Fast) to Reach the 2020 Renewable Energy Target
    Posted by Ronal Kumar with contributions from Adrian Hart
    (SCROLL DOWN) Results of our analysis
    In our analysis for the Engineering Construction in Australia 2016 – 2030 report (LINK), we have put together a pipeline of major projects that are likely to go ahead if the RET is to be met by 2020. We favoured projects that had the lowest cost per GWh, and excluded those projects that require the most expensive high voltage transmission lines to be installed or upgraded.
    The results show that to reach the 33,000 GWh target, we estimate that there needs to be an additional $10 billion worth of investment in renewable energy projects on top of the $340 million worth of committed projects. In terms of installed generation, this equates to approximately 4,850 MW of capacity, which will be mostly wind and solar.
    http://www.bis.com.au/im-renewable-energy.html

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    • #
      Peter C

      In a document called Power Shift, also released on Monday, the (Clean Energy) council proposes measures to ensure the “orderly” closure of heavy-emitting coal plants, which chief executive Kane Thornton said were “more at home in the Eastern Bloc” than in Australia.
      “As these plants phase out, Australia can take advantage of our world-class sun, wind, waves and bio-energy that will deliver the lowest-cost form of new electricity generation,” Mr Thornton said. The document says regulated emissions limits or emissions trading could be used to drive plant closures…

      OMG!

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      • #
        OriginalSteve

        Kool aid…get yer kool aid here!!!!!!!!!!!!

        40

        • #
          tom0mason

          2 pints of Sheeple’s Kool Aid please.

          Remember folks, don’t just ask for kool aid ….

          Ask for Sheeple's Kool Aid

          Now with even more refreshing Amnesium©

          20

      • #
        bobl

        I’m getting much closer to going diesel if anything like this ever get accepted!

        30

      • #
        Greg Cavanagh

        It’s funny that we can read news articles, but the Clean Energy Council is unaware that every wave-energy machine so far invented hasn’t worked; yet they still push the idea. This tells me that they are clueless at best, and if they are clueless on this one topic, why would I trust anything they say on any other topic. Beating a dead horse simply displays how stupid one is to onlookers.

        While “heavy-emitting coal plants” are at home in the eastern bloc, at least they have reliable power that is real cheep. What do those coal plants emit again?

        20

    • #
      Analitik

      Why are you bringing up such old “news”?

      10

  • #
    David S

    With the three largest emitters China, India and the USA all likely to have no commitment to reducing CO 2 emissions countries such as Australia , U.K. And Canada who feel some moral obligation to meet Paris targets are going to go backwards economically. In fact the political movement sweeping the world will remove governments who insist on sticking to the global warming mantra.

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    • #
      bobl

      As I wrote to some of my senators, that light you see at the end of the tunnel is the Trump Train barrelling toward you, better get on the platform or our economy will get run down by a revitalised US economy with few green restrictions.

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  • #
    PeterS

    Clearly the Greens agenda is to destroy the Western capitalist society and replace it with some kind of socialist totalitarian rule. What I don’t understand is why most people don’t see it that way and instead tend to ignore them as some kind of joke. After all their futures and their children’s future is at stake. Sure there is a backlash against higher power costs yet if one looks at the popularity of the other leftist parties pushing the same line one would have thought the people don’t really mind. Of course the bombshell will one day hit when we have the recession/depression we all had to have. Then those still pushing the AGW hoax will have to find a “safe place” in another country.

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    • #
      el gordo

      Peter the brainwashed masses don’t see the greenblob as socialist and I’m not prepared to tell them until I get some backup.

      They already go bananas when I say CO2 doesn’t cause global warming, so as you can appreciate its not the discussion that will go down well at the Xmas family gathering, but now that Donald is leading the charge there are bound to be many opportunities to attack the flawed science of the Klimatariat.

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      • #
        bobl

        Christmas family gatherings are just the place given it now costs close to $2.00 just to roast the Christmas chook. Everyone is suffering bill-shock on electricity, so few know it’s green boondoggles driving up the price (and driving down the reliability). Of course Power Bill Short on brains is offering to drive up price and lower reliability even further should we desire to elect him. Not that the libs are likely to kill the RET any time soon either, Lord Wentworth even tried dumping a rebranded Emission Trading Scheme on us!

        The majors are so infiltrated by this communist nonsense I hope One Nation kicks them up the Khyber pass, at least this may wake them up to the fact that Australians DO NOT WANT TO PAY FOR THIS GREEN SLIME. We are building spaghetti power networks without any overall architectural integrity, and with completely ignored (but predictable) dependencies as illustrated by the SA blackout.

        30

        • #
          el gordo

          ‘The majors are so infiltrated by this communist nonsense …’

          That should be pseudo Marxist nonsense and has nothing to do with the true Marxists, unless we take Donald at his word that Beijing invented the AGW hoax.

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      Just too many lawyers among the gullible politicians.
      When the Greens throw tantrums the gullibles agree in order to shut them up, without any thought about te future. The Greens later remind them of what they said and threaten to expose them as liars. The gullibles fall into line (for a while anyway).
      The lawyers note that the Greens are demanding X and offer to meet the Greens halfway. The Greens accept and once they’ve got 50% throw another tantrum and settle for 75%. Once they’ve got 75% but I think you, unlike the lawyers or the gullibles, have worked out the end result.
      So you can see that the Liberals are divided into 3 parts (there’s a Latin quote somewhere in there) the Gullibles, the Lawyers and those with common sense otherwise known as “ultra right wing extremist DefCon deniers of the science and killers of babies and/or cute polar bears” etc. I think you are familiar with the pattern.

      00

  • #
    theRealUniverse

    Clearly the Greens agenda is to destroy the Western capitalist society and replace it with some kind of socialist totalitarian rule

    Its called Agenda 21, One World Govt.

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  • #
    pat

    GE renewables salesman says something good about renewables, so Hannam says that will ***bolster the case made by State Govts! huh:

    11 Dec: SMH: Peter Hannam: US energy giant GE backs states going own way on renewables
    Renewable energy can add resiliency to electricity grids and there’s no reason why individual states can’t set their own goals higher than a national target, says a US industry veteran…
    “If Australia wants to try its own state by state [approach] that is not intrinsically a bad thing,” the 36-year GE veteran engineer told Fairfax Media during a visit.
    “If some states want to move forward faster, they will reap the economic benefits first, and the states that stay behind — sort of embracing the past — are probably going to get left behind.”
    Mr Miller’s comments ***will bolster the case made by governments in states such as Queensland, Victoria and South Australia, and the federal Opposition, all of which have set renewable energy targets beyond 2020 unlike the federal government….
    Mr Miller said both Republicans and Democrats had managed to find common ground on clean energy in the US.
    “It’s not ideologically driven, it’s business driven,” he said…
    It’s (GE) found that, contrary to may public views, wind power actually advances rather than undermines the resilience of the grid…
    While recent blackouts in South Australia show that state’s power sector to “very highly stressed”, the response should be to increase flexibility in the system by altering market rules and investment incentives.
    Fresh spending on coal or gas plants will be needed but not on “obsolete dinosaurs on life support”, he says…
    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/us-energy-giant-ge-backs-states-going-own-way-on-renewables-20161211-gt8jdl.html

    5 pages, but registration required to read on after page 1:

    9 Dec: SeekingAlpha: John Petersen: GE And Tesla Motors, Cynically Promoting Renewable Snake-Oil
    Summary
    •GE cynically games the system by promoting wind turbines that can’t satisfy the basic needs of utilities or their customers and burden utilities and ratepayers with substantial integration costs.
    •During the 12 months ended September 30, 2016, California’s Independent System Operator, CAISO, reported 225 days when system-wide wind power was less than 60% of monthly peak wind.
    •Tesla Motors’ SolarCity unit cynically games the system by promoting solar panels that can’t satisfy customers basic needs and impose significant integration costs on local utilities and their ratepayers.
    •During the 12 months ended September 30, 2016, CAISO reported 29 days when system-wide solar power was less than 60% of monthly peak solar.
    •The shocking hour-to-hour and day-to-day variability of wind and solar power negatively impact the operating efficiency of conventional power plants 365 days a year.
    CAISO’s Renewables Watch web-page (LINK) is a veritable treasure trove of data for researchers who are willing to download, organize and analyze daily reports… READ ON
    http://seekingalpha.com/article/4029457-ge-tesla-motors-cynically-promoting-renewable-snake-oil

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    • #
      Graeme No.3

      When reading this drivel from GE you should remember that apart from selling you wind turbines GE hope to sell you gas turbines to get you out of the mess you will get into by following their advice on turbines.

      As for wind turbines “advancing the resilience of the grid…” look at South Australia. How many blackouts have you had this year? I’ve had 4 and dodged the last one which blacked out 200,000 houses. Wind turbines DISRUPT the grid. They DESTROY the incentive for fresh spending on coal or gas plants. Look at the UK where they are having to subsidise diesel generators, wood fired plants (sitting on coal fields), and future nuclear and tidal energy BECAUSE they subsidised wind turbines (and solar PV and wood fired central heating for owners of Stately homes).

      10

    • #
      stan stendera

      Some time ago I mentioned here how I wanted to short Tesla. I haven’t got the resources to short sell the stock, but I do have the resources to short Tesla by buying put options. I currently own put option which essentially short the stock.

      Seeking Alpha, incidentally, is a wonderful resource on the American stock market. You have to be careful because it is largely crowd sourced, but there is much valuable information and interesting new ideas for stocks to investigate.

      00

      • #
        Analitik

        Seekaing Alpha is one of my favourite entertainment sites for the comments over the Tesla articles. The majority of longs are so spellbound by Elron Musk’s fairy tales that they’d sell their kids and parents before their TSLA shares. Sadly for them, the institutions that have been propping up the share price have been looking for the right moment to bail and I see the opportunity arising with the next capital raise.

        Once Tesla implodes, Seeking Alpha will be no where near as interesting/compelling.

        Have you given Montana Skeptic your forecasts for the next round of mugs? And congrats on the puts – I hope the strike price is met for them soon.

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  • #
    poitsplace

    All sources of energy are free. The sunlight and wind is free…nobody paid to make it. But then so too is coal, oil, gas, uranium, and thorium…nobody paid to make them either. It is the act of harnessing the energy that costs money…and wind/solar simply cost more to implement.

    Of course, then there is the “value” of energy. Almost all of the value in energy is in it being there where and when you need it. So you’re kind of doubly screwed.

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  • #
    ivan

    For those like me for whom the link to the GWPF PDF at the top of the page doesn’t work try this.
    Full report (PDF)

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  • #

    The main realistic hope for bringing sanity back to these politicians is that Donald Trump will take the rattle and spoon away from the UN, thus depriving the centre of World evil of its will to continue this machiavellian scheme of grinding the poor of the World to oblivion. When the money dries up, so does the interest.

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    • #
      Dennis

      Wouldn’t it be good if the US led other large nations to defund all UN organisations that are not part of the original United Nations established shortly after WW2.

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  • #
    Analitik

    The preliminary Independent review into the future security of the National Electricity Market report to COAG by Alan Finkel and his panel is out. Seems like a wishy washy waste of time – a delaying tactic at best (while renewables continue to undermine our electricity supply and hence the economy)

    http://euanmearns.com/blowout-week-154/#comment-25209

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    • #
      Analitik

      BS alert from the Finkel report

      One characteristic of wind and solar PV generators is their intermittency. As a result, their capacity to deliver electrical energy is lower than that of a coal-fired power station of an equivalent size – for wind by approximately half, and for utility-scale solar PV, by approximately a quarter

      They used figures from the NREL which is a vested interest player in the US government – http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/tech_cap_factor.html

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    pat

    ***no figure given for the “MULTI” in the BILLIONS, but amount needed for part of Victoria’s renewables’ aspirations said to be “approximately $1 billion to $3 billion”.
    however, ABC does report AEMO estimates there will be a “net benefit of $300 million”!
    “MULTI” might be quantified in the 110-page Report at the link:

    12 Dec: ABC: Power grid in need of multi-billion-dollar upgrade to safeguard future energy supply, report finds
    By political reporter Francis Keany
    A report by the nation’s energy regulator has recommended a multi-billion-dollar investment in electricity infrastructure — such as a second interconnector with South Australia — to help secure the stability of Australia’s power grid.
    The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) report argued the investment would help save money in the long run, amid the growing use of renewable energy generation.
    But Federal Energy Minister Josh Frydenberg has questioned who will pay for the upgrades and said the report highlighted the impact of ambitious renewable energy sources in several states.
    The newly released National Transmission Network Development Plan (NTNDP) said additional infrastructure and safeguards needed to be put in place across Australia.
    It cited the shift away from coal-fired power stations and the rise of renewable energy, with an additional 22 gigawatts of new wind and solar generation to be connected by 2036…
    The AEMO has said up to 12 gigawatts of new gas-powered generation may be required to replace coal-fired generators that could close in the next 20 years if technology does not improve…
    ***The AEMO estimated that if its recommendations were adopted, there would be a positive net benefit of up to $300 million…
    Mr Frydenberg said the AEMO’s report was “further evidence” that the renewable energy targets adopted by South Australia, Queensland and Victoria were “putting at risk energy security”…
    REPORT 110 PAGES FOLLOWS
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-12/power-grid-in-need-of-multi-billion-dollar-upgrade:-report/8111468

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      Analitik

      It’s a well considered, well written report (like most AEMO publications) with the underlying erroneous assumption that CO2 abatement in line with the Paris COP agreement is a firm requirement. As such, the findings are skewed to the same sort of ridiculous notions which has led to the UK 2008 Climate Change Act.

      The “benefits” of the proposed interconnectors hinge on the assumption that coal plants will be replaced by renewables supported by huge increases in gas “backup” generation.

      It is a very good sign that Josh Frydenberg is finally stating the obvious that the costs of implementing the AEMO recommendations will be very large and that the state renewable energy targets are going to destroy our energy security. He is finally acting like a serious Energy Minister rather than just an (misled) Environment Minister.

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        Graeme No.3

        It also assumes that multi-billion dollar amounts for ‘up-grades” grow on trees and therefore don’t affect the cost of electricity. The ordinary citizen is seeing his electricity bill climb higher and higher, along with other charges. In SA this year the cost of Car Registrations has jumped, the Save the Murray levy is up, the Emergency Services Levy is up (it goes to ? wrong, it goes into general revenue), the Water Bill is up (especially the Supply Charge), the local Council rates are up etc.

        Down on the floor the State Premier stands,
        Lies and excuses ready to his hands,
        He looks around but seems rather remote,
        for he’ll be overseas when it comes to a vote.
        Chorus:
        Up go the taxes, boys, up, up up,
        Up go the charges and levies as well.
        Labor is doing really well
        and the rest of us can go to hell.

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    pat

    12 Dec: Australian: Chris Mitchell: 2016: Left-leaning media’s year of howlers
    This has been a year of historic media lows for journalistic gullibility, “truthiness” and Facebook false news, matched only in the pace of decline by the erosion of political standards across the Western world.
    Much has been written during the past month about the failure of the media here and in the US to anticipate the rise of Donald Trump, which surpassed even the British media’s failure to predict the Brexit vote mid-year…
    As usual, the progressive media shamed itself on climate change and renewables all year. The highlight surely was the savaging meted out to the ABC’s best journalist, Chris Uhlmann, when he wrote the truth about the damage renewables were doing to the South Australian power grid after the stunning late September statewide blackout.
    But, like lemmings, there was ABC radio’s AM program talking up the cause of renewables on Thursday morning and giving one of the main culprits in the South Australian blackout, Premier Jay Weatherill, a free kick at the federal government for supporting the Adani coalmine in northern Queensland.
    Like activists at the ABC, too many Labor leaders, state and federal, just don’t understand the effects the renewable energy target is having on electricity generation, price and reliability. Not to mention the grifting by big financial players of government incentives in the renewables industry or the long-term need for baseload coal or gas-fired power across the country.
    The Fairfax papers regaled readers all year with claims of wildly exaggerated sea level rises and hottest years on record but failed to notice the cooling of surface temperatures around the world as last year’s strong El Nino retreated. They trust the science all right, but not when it shows “inconvenient truths”…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/opinion/2016-leftleaning-medias-year-of-howlers/news-story/5ab54062b55f6eb4b58a7c2796b1e92f

    hottest year evah:

    12 Dec: ABC AM: Australia’s cherry season, a tale of two fortunes
    You might have noticed that cherries are in short supply and quite expensive in the leadup to this Christmas.
    ***That’s because there’s been a wet and cold start to summer in parts of eastern Australia.
    It means Western Australia’s small cherry industry is scrambling to keep up with demand…
    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2016/s4590696.htm

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    Cato

    I wish UK a happy BREXIT!

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    pat

    re “Fox on Sunday” interview with Trump. CBS sees NASA’s ***”very likely” as definitive proof!

    11 Dec: CBS: Emily Schultheis: Contradicting settled science, Donald Trump says “nobody really knows” on climate change
    Donald Trump said again on Sunday that he is “open-minded” about climate change — but also that “nobody really knows” the truth about the issue, which contradicts the fact that there is near-universal scientific agreement on the issue (LINK)…
    NASA’s website on climate change, for example, notes that approximately 97 percent of publishing climate scientists agree that human activities are ***very likely*** responsible for rising temperatures…
    “Paris, I’m studying,” he said. “I do say this: I don’t want that agreement to put us at a competitive disadvantage with other countries. And as you know, there are different times and different time limits on that agreement. I don’t want that to give China, or other countries signing agreements an advantage over us.”
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-climate-change-nobody-really-knows/

    CBS’s LINK for “fact there is near-universal scientific agreement”:

    2 Nov 2014: CBS: “There is no ambiguity” on climate change, U.N. concludes
    COPENHAGEN, Denmark – Climate change is happening, it’s almost entirely man’s fault and limiting its impacts may require reducing greenhouse gas emissions to zero this century, the U.N.’s panel on climate science said Sunday…
    Emissions, mainly from the burning of fossil fuels, may need to drop to zero by the end of this century for the world to have a decent chance of keeping the temperature rise below a level that many consider dangerous. Failure to do so, which could require deployment of technologies that suck greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere, could lock the world on a trajectory with “irreversible” impacts on people, like altering the male-female ratio, and on the environment, the report said. Some impacts are already being observed, including rising sea levels, a warmer and more acidic ocean, melting glaciers and Arctic sea ice and more frequent and intense heat waves.
    “Science has spoken. There is no ambiguity in their message. Leaders must act. Time is not on our side,” U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said at the report’s launch in Copenhagen.
    Climate scientists face an uphill battle convincing the American public of climate change’s existence, let alone its urgency…
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/climate-change-is-happening-and-it-is-mans-fault-un-panel-concludes/

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    pat

    full of anti-Trump propaganda, misrepresentations of conservatives & Cass Sunstein quotes, but includes a few truths:

    10 Dec: NYT: Nicholas Kristof: The Dangers of Echo Chambers on Campus
    We liberals are adept at pointing out the hypocrisies of Trump, but we should also address our own hypocrisy in terrain we govern, such as most universities: Too often, we embrace diversity of all kinds except for ideological. Repeated studies have found that about 10 percent of professors in the social sciences or the humanities are Republicans.
    We champion tolerance, except for conservatives and evangelical Christians. We want to be inclusive of people who don’t look like us — so long as they think like us…
    Already, the lack of ideological diversity on campuses is a disservice to the students and to liberalism itself, with liberalism collapsing on some campuses into self-parody…
    It’s ineffably sad that today “that’s academic” often means “that’s irrelevant.” One step to correcting that is for us liberals to embrace the diversity we supposedly champion.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/10/opinion/sunday/the-dangers-of-echo-chambers-on-campus.html?ref=opinion&_r=1

    the farce continues on FakeNewsMSM:

    10 Dec: CNN (CIA NEWS NETWORK): Ex-CIA operative: We may need a new vote
    Former CIA Operative Robert Baer says if the CIA can prove that Russia interfered with the 2016 election then the US should vote again…

    10 Dec: Politico: Kyle Cheney: California elector files suit, joins anti-Trump Electoral College push
    A Democratic presidential elector from California has filed suit in support of an effort to block Donald Trump’s path to the presidency, the second such lawsuit filed in recent days.
    Vinz Koller, chairman of the Monterey County Democratic Party, has become the 10th presidential elector – joining eight other Democrats and one Republican – to lend support to the anti-Trump effort…

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    I’ve worked it out. They’re all in the pay of Big Genny.

    Who wants to rule the world from the head offices of Aggreko, F G Wilson, Atlas Copco, Caterpillar, and Ingersoll Rand? Cui bono?

    Big Genny!

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    Dennis

    Maybe the Australian federal government is getting nervous about renewable energy (so called) and its impact on our electricity supplies?

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-12/power-grid-in-need-of-multi-billion-dollar-upgrade:-report/8111468

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  • #
    David Maddison

    In an AEMO published today and mentioned on the news they suggest building two more interconnectors to SA, one to VIC and one to NSW so they can get reliable coal power, for a cost of around $1 billion.

    Couldn’t they build a proper power station for that amount?

    The report also said that over the next 15 yrs (?) another 20GW (nameplate) of bird blenders are to be installed and coal will be reduced from 75% to 25% as they destroy the remaining coal burners.

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      • #
        Analitik

        pat posted it earlier amongst the rest of his news feed (which probably gets ignored by many due to his unformatted cut/paste presentation)

        Here’s my earlier comment:
        ==========================
        It’s a well considered, well written report (like most AEMO publications) with the underlying erroneous assumption that CO2 abatement in line with the Paris COP agreement is a firm requirement. As such, the findings are skewed to the same sort of ridiculous notions which has led to the UK 2008 Climate Change Act.

        The “benefits” of the proposed interconnectors hinge on the assumption that coal plants will be replaced by renewables supported by huge increases in gas “backup” generation.

        It is a very good sign that Josh Frydenberg is finally stating the obvious that the costs of implementing the AEMO recommendations will be very large and that the state renewable energy targets are going to destroy our energy security. He is finally acting like a serious Energy Minister rather than just an (misled) Environment Minister.

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      Geoffrey Williams

      Are these people insane !!!
      GeoffW

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    Geoffrey Williams

    Over 300 billion pounds of taxpayers money! Thats a lot!
    AND all that money has to go somewhere . .
    Wages, salaries, fees, construction costs & interest etc etc..
    Oh and yes of course PROFITS to benefit the wealthy.
    And for what?!
    GeoffW

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    With that AEMO release on energy security in Australia, there are calls for those Labor States to think again their renewable targets.

    Here in Queensland, the aim is for 50% renewable by 2030.

    The interim report actually states that they WILL NOT be closing any existing coal fired plants, as Queensland has the youngest fleet of them in Australia.

    That immediately shoots down the 50% target.

    What it also does is provide a fall back insurance when they find that (a) the target will never be achieved, and (b) they still have that coal fired power available, and by the target date, most of the Queensland coal fired plants will still have 20 years of use left in them, and while they say they will not be closing any of them down, what they are not telling you is that those plants probably have iron clad legal documents which ensure supply until the projected life span is reached, and trying to get around those contracts would most probably see lawsuits for breach of contract, and huge amounts of compensation, something that the Palace Chook HAS said they will not be paying.

    The plant at Gladstone is the oldest coal fired plant in Queensland, and is the major supplier for RioTinto Aluminium plant, (liquid electricity) and in 2030, it will be 54 years old, still delivering its power.

    Imagine the b@lls of these people, to make a study into 50% renewables and then saying up front that they WON”T be closing any coal fired plants.

    Not that it matters, because Queensland will NEVER have 50% of its power consumption supplied by renewables, NEVER.

    Tony.

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    • #
      Analitik

      I may shoot down Queensland’s target but certainly not Victoria’s. Our ageing fleet of brown coal plants are coming due for replacement.

      SuperCritial or even UltraCritical would be great if the additional cost over a conventional brown coal plant wasn’t too great (I have yet to see any figures on the capital overhead). But even modern replacement plants with efficiencies on the order of Loy Yang B would be good enough.

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    Grant (NZ)

    OT: Reindeer getting smaller because of climate change

    NZ Herald

    Oh the horror! What terrible timing for such news. Either Santa will be delivering smaller gifts or he will have to enlist more reindeer to maintain the customary level of opulence we have come to expect.

    Given the timing, does anyone else suspect some opportunism/hoaxiness?

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      Grant (NZ)

      I am personally going to use this article to explain the coming frugality. I guess I could tell the kids that increased levies and climate change related costs have dented the budget.

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    • #
      Another Ian

      Grant

      That is so they can land the sleigh on the bit of roof space not covered by solar panels

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        Graeme No.3

        But you can’t have reindeer landing on the roof in any case, lest the reindeer poop all over the solar panels.

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    Funny isn’t it, the definition of renewable power for politicians is ….. getting voted back in.

    Tony.

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    Robert Rosicka

    So the power blackout in SA was caused by renewables , any chance of a labor party apology?

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      Graeme No.3

      We have an apology for a government but no chance of an apology from them. They’re too busy stuffing up the Hospital system and digging up roads and parklands around Adelaide for no discernible gain for the general public.
      You’ve no doubt heard rumours about our new Adelaide Hospital which is way behind schedule and way, way over budget. It may well pass from the second most expensive building erected to the most expensive. Once they sort out its tendency to flood**, or burn down if somebody turns the water off, or the public start trying to actually get into it (it is not ideally located, and there are doubts about the proposed ambuance shuttle service to other hospitals working that well). Fortunately(?) it works on an uninterrupted(?) electricity supply.
      ** Assuming there is any water supply given the number of pipe bursts occurring, as they have for years.

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        Dennis

        Are they still complaining about water allocation from the Murray-Darling Rivers?

        I note that there is still flooding taking place along the system.

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    pat

    so much for the headline! Sky News video that accompanies this piece has Orwellian talk from:

    Weatherill (every major business group is recommending it);
    Doug Cameron (Turnbull is a dead duck, he’s doomed, can’t stand up to the extreme right in his party); and
    Bill Shorten (holds up SMH front page – “Coalition shuns $15 billion savings to power bills”)

    SKY NEWS VIDEO: 4mins40secs: 12 Dec: Herald Sun: Rob Harris: Carbon emissions scheme would wipe out thousands of Victorian jobs, industry warns
    THOUSANDS of blue-collar Victorian jobs would be wiped out under a push to slap power generators with penalties for polluting, industry is warning.
    The influential lobby groups are rallying against an Emissions Intensity scheme, discussed by state and territory leaders last week, claiming it would shut down Latrobe Valley’s coal-fired power stations and cripple Victoria’s manufacturing sector.

    The warnings come despite the Australian Energy Market Commission’s the scheme would save households and businesses up to $15 billion in electricity bills over a decade.
    But the sector has ridiculed the modelling as “fanciful” for making the assumption that electricity retailers would bare(sic) the costs and not pass them onto customers.
    The proposal would likely lead to the closure of 6,800 megawatts of coal power stations — more than the entire capacity of Victoria’s brown coal power stations — leading to the loss of hundreds of jobs…

    Minerals Council of Australia Victorian division’s Gavin Lind said governments must guard against creating instability in the electricity system which drives up costs and reducing reliability.
    “Simply closing down coal-fired generation is not the answer and would be a short-sighted move,” he said.
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/carbon-emissions-scheme-would-wipe-out-thousands-of-victorian-jobs-industry-warns/news-story/1ab584d1610037eea999cd3253e431e6

    u have to watch the video. unbelievable.

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    Another Ian

    Warning – far O/T

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2016/12/david-camerons-35.html#comments

    and comments or you’ll miss the song

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    Reasonable Skeptic

    Only ignorant people think this is shocking.

    Food for thought; does the word “Green” in green advocacy refer to the color of plants of the color of money ($US).

    10

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    CheshireRed

    Absolutely positively NO mention of this AT ALL on the BBC or (as yet) in the UK Guardian. Quelle surprise!

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    Owen Morgan

    I’d like to say that this beggars belief, but, unfortunately, it doesn’t, any more. Blair condemned us to a future of blackouts. Millipede aggravated the situation, as Secretary of State for the unlamented DECC, when he he introduced the monumentally stupid Climate Change Act. Cameron didn’t help. He was right on board with all this nonsense and, in any case, handed over control of the details to, successively, gaolbird Chris Huhne, gurning champion Ed Davey and the supremely useless Amber Rudd (now even more hopeless as Home Secretary).

    All the facts about the uselessness of renewables have been out in the open forever. It’s no great secret that there’s no daylight for a significant portion of the day, or that the wind doesn’t blow consistently. The British government, however, has continued to subsidise “renewables”, while pretending that they are competitive with other sources of energy. Britain still sits on an ocean of coal, as well as large reserves of shale gas. There is no excuse, if the lights go out.

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    When the Climate Change Act 2008 was passed, the three main political parties were all saying that Britain lead the World on Climate Policy. This claim is false, as no other country is following the extreme policies. Because of this, no matter how much money is spent, and even if the most alarmist prophesies of climate catastrophe are true, future generations will be worse off through these policies. The reason is clear from the theory. Global warming is supposed to be caused by rising levels of greenhouse gases caused by global GHG emissions. To constrain global warming requires reducing global emissions. A country that produces only 1% of global emissions will have approximately zero impact with unilateralist policies.
    The global picture does not change much in the unlikely event other developed countries adopt similar policies. The Rio Declaration in 1992 was only signed by the developed and the transitional (ex-Warsaw Pact) countries. The developing economies have no obligation to reduce GHG emissions. From 1990 to 2012, global emissions rose by over 40% according to the EDGAR data set. The emissions by the non-Annex developing countries doubled, and the increase was slightly greater than the global total.
    https://manicbeancounter.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/edgar-data-annex-non-annex-emissions-growth.jpg
    So, depending on your beliefs about global warming, the £300bn+ will yield somewhere between approximately zero and absolutely zero benefit to the British people.

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    Oliver K. Manuel

    The term Gibbs “free energy” is a thermodynamic state function that roughly tells us the fraction of heat energy that is available to do work.

    Einstein’s energy, E = mc^2, and Aston’s nuclear “packing fraction” roughly tells us the fraction of atomic mass that can be released to do work.

    10

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    observa

    SA Labor Govt follows like lemmings

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    Russell Johnson

    Very quixotic of the UK, proving again insanity is contagious.

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    Amber

    Could it be that energy is the currency of the future . Paper money has nothing to back it up
    and gold while wonderful to own is just a drop in the bucket of needed liquidity .
    So if you have energy to generate power you have a backstop to your currency .
    No energy… no economy or socially supporting infrastructure .

    Alternatively we could just apply the Bill Clinton approach to economics and managing
    debt by just knocking off a bunch of zero’s .

    00