JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

…. nearly forgot this was a weekend. : -)

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Weekend Unthreaded, 7.4 out of 10 based on 22 ratings

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129 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    Peter Yates

    The android called Data from ‘Star Trek: The Next Generation’ explains one of the main difficulties when working with complex systems (such as the global climate), in one short sentence! .. https://youtu.be/gQx07iKX3NA

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      James Murphy

      When it comes to androids, I don’t think they did much better than Marvin – the sort of artificial intelligence you’d expect to get if it was initially programmed by Stephan Lewandowsky and John Cook, and then trained by listening to speeches by Tim Flannery, Adam Bandt, and Sarah Hanson-Young.

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        James Murphy

        Thanks for the red thumb, it means I must be pretty much on-target.

        Feel free to offer something in the way of rebuttal though, if you’re capable of doing anything more than pavlovian mouse-clicks.

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          Greg Cavanagh

          Is there actually somebody out there who would defend Stephan Lewandowsky or Tim Flannery?

          I can accept that John Cook’s paper still confuses many people. What a messed up robot this guy would produce…

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            OriginalSteve

            You might be expecting too much of the google generation me thinks….

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              tom0mason

              They’re the sort of people who believe that a red thumb or a green thumb really means something.
              They don’t usually understand the difference between popular ideas and worthwhile idea.

              Probably the same people who view science as lists of facts and right answers, instead of links of mathematics and logic that leads to the best but incomplete, human approximation to natural truth.

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    • #
      Manfred

      Complex systems can sometimes behave in ways that are entirely unpredictable” — Data

      “The climate system is a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.” – IPCC TAR Chap 14, Exec Summary
      Chaos, Stability and Climate

      ‘Climate Change’ (UN definition) was and remains solely the province of eco-maniacal politics of the UN 2030 regime and their cohorts of hangers on, the intentionally misnamed, ‘civil society‘.

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        OriginalSteve

        Well that comment and admission alone blows the whole models the IPCC produces out of the water and onto the beach….

        Game set and match, thank you ball boys, thank you umpires.

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    • #
      Roy Hogue

      The Next Gen writers had a lot of fun with that Data character. Fortunately they had reality nailed down quite accurately with regard to his wondering about human perception of time, about complex systems and other things. But those little vignettes were about the only things in all of Star Trek from Captain Kirk all the way to the end of the last movie that had any understanding of even basic physics. Would you expect a ship traveling through space at high speed — or any speed — to suddenly stop just from stopping its engines? In fact, how do you define stopped where everything is defined by reference to some object that itself may or may not be “moving”? I don’t know how the public at large thought of it but I don’t think a space ship would need to bank like an airplane when making a change in heading.

      But it was such good fun that I still spend time watching reruns on Netflix. If the characters and the world they live in are both good you can suspend disbelief easily and enjoy it. If climate change could be half that much fun or if the characters involved were consistent with the world they live in maybe more people could understand it. Or maybe then we would suspend our disbelief and start to enjoy it.

      Oops, sorry, maybe it’s not so good an idea to have climate change be more fun. ;-)

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      • #
        Roy Hogue

        I wonder if anyone ever did an analysis of the CO2 concentration aboard the Enterprise.

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        Would you expect a ship traveling through space at high speed — or any speed — to suddenly stop just from stopping its engines?

        Newtonian motion works only for Newtonian motion. Not when you’re warping space around the ship in order to translate the vessel through points that are not contiguous in real space; effecting speeds in excess of light speed. Thus, if you stop warp engines, you stop somewhere along your course; hopefully in real space where classical laws apply.

        The ship’s Newtonian motion is of course conserved between entering an leaving warp.

        I don’t think a space ship would need to bank like an airplane when making a change in heading.

        Think again! If the thrust direction of the engines is fixed, then the spacecraft has to change its direction relative to its course to go in a new direction. Even a hovercraft pilot has to be aware of that.

        Beyond the question of thrust are the structural demands. Most spacecraft are much more flimsy than aircraft and the forces required to make bits of it fly in a different direction (F = m · a ; “a” is a vector) might cause components to be disadvantageously loaded; it could break things and then they could be “floating” around in some indeterminate direction; perhaps ready to pierce the atmospheric envelope at the next change of direction. Therefore, one points the spacecraft in a direction where acceleration can be supported by the structure, before applying thrust in that direction.

        Picard’s wisdom in The Drumhead (video)

        villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged. … But she or someone like her will always be with us, waiting for the right climate in which to flourish – spreading fear in the name of righteousness. Vigilance, … That is the price we have to continually pay.

        Text snarfed from Memory Alpha. Jump to the Act Five summary for the “chase”. Unfortunately, the righteous activists of this century are largely incapable of being shamed, having perverted acceptable social standards to suit their means as much as their goals.

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        • #

          Well put! “Vigilance, … That is the price we have to continually pay.” Mods: Only some illusion! nothing written or verbally expressed in OZ!

          ‘Tis now all US-peons v.s. over-educated idiots with no experience spouting their profound righteousness! May their first good experience be blindfolded, up against the bloodied block wall!

          You guys in OZ have it so easy.

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        • #
          Roy Hogue

          Bernd,

          I readily admit that to change heading one would have to change the direction in which the engines’ thrust acts. But the banking of the Enterprise like an airplane would accomplish nothing. An airplane does that so the lift vector is partially in the direction in which you want to turn and voila, you change direction. There is no lift vector in space. There is only gravity and the direction in which your engines act. It’s too obvious to need stating that the engines act in the forward direction as defined by the ship. Just watch one episode and you’ll draw that conclusion.

          As for warp drive. Please define the term. Gene Roddenberry very conveniently omitted any explanation — conveniently for the writers, that is. They then could use it without having to say the slightest thing about how it worked or what it does to the ship except that you go very fast. They never even said that it was travel in excess of the speed of light. I don’t remember a single such statement. It was left to your imagination. It’s like climate science only more so. Never explain yourself, just go at warp 6 and get there in an hour instead of years.

          Structural integrity is another thing. Something built like the enterprise was built would tear itself apart at the first hit from an enemy’s phasor… …unless you have that magical structural integrity field and then only your enemy’s ship comes apart, never yours.

          Great fun but questionable physics.

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            Roy Hogue

            The basic bottom line to Star Trek is probably that if they had made everything follow the rules of physics, not one person in a hundred in the audience would have understood it. So it was made to be a more familiar environment, almost always 2 dimensional, not 3, even though it was superimposed on a 3 dimensional world. Doing that also simplified things for the writers, the set designers and the actors. They could have a well defined down direction, just as here on Earth and everything was simple enough to make one episode a week for 3 years of the original series, 7 years of Next Gen, 7 years of Deep Space Nine and… …like Star Wars, it may live forever.

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        PeterS

        Oh come on, it’s just a sci fi movie. It has very little to do with reality, Newtonian or otherwise.

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        • #

          Astrophysicist Sallie Baliunas was scientific advisor to Star Trek.

          Sallie suffered the slings and arrows of the Climastrophists after she published a joint paper with Willie Soon which heretically argued that the sun was a more significant factor in climate than CO2. She’d also testified before Congress that CFC’s were not responsible for the ozone hole.

          Dr Baliunas’ speech on Weather Cooking is excellent and should promoted whenever possible. The speech was perhaps strongly motivated by the witch hunt to which she and Willie were subjected; because of their views.

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          PeterS July 4, 2016 at 2:07 pm

          “Oh come on, it’s just a sci fi movie. It has very little to do with reality, Newtonian or otherwise.”

          Reality is an obscure philosophical mental construct that must include ALL, including every concept of what may or may not appear in the toilet after I take a crap!
          The physical; (physics) is but a wee subset of the real that can be repeatably measured to insure credibility rather than fantasy.
          Science is the deliberate creation of conjecture than can be falsified through measurement.
          Meteorology and astrology is measurement first; then some fantasy to barely explain such measurement, for fools that wish to pay handsomely for such fantasy!

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        Roy Hogue

        And I’m beginning to regret mentioning any of it. But it was the weekend thread… ;-)

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    Bevan Dockery

    Analysis of data for CO2 concentration relative to satellite lower tropospheric Tropics-Land temperature clearly shows that CO2 does not cause global warming and that it is the temperature that controls the rate of change of CO2 concentration.
    This is obvious from a study of the time relationship between atmospheric CO2 concentration at the Mauna Loa Observatory, Hawaii, from the Scripps Institute, compared to the satellite lower tropospheric Tropics-Land temperature provide by the University of Alabama, Huntsville, for the major 1997-‘98 El Nino event.
    The maximum in the annual increment of the temperature, at October 1997, preceded the maximum in the annual increment in the CO2 concentration, at March 1998, by 5 months revealing that the CO2 change could not possibly have caused the temperature change. Statistical analysis of the complete data set extending from December 1978, when satellite measurements began, until the present determined that the 5 month delay was the average throughout the 38 year period.
    Further, it is clear that the Average Temperature, being the 12 month running average temperature, corresponds with the overall variation in the CO2 annual increment. Again this is confirmed by analysis of the complete record which gave a statistically significant correlation between the two. It is not possible for a CO2 time rate of change to set the level of the average temperature but it is possible for the average temperature to cause the rate of change in the CO2 concentration in the same way that the temperature setting of a stove element determines the rate of evaporation of a pot of water. This supports the contention that the CO2 change has not caused the temperature change.
    If the temperature level determines the rate of change of the CO2 concentration then the first derivative of the temperature series, here the annual increment, would correspond with the second derivative of the CO2 concentration, that is, the rate of change of the rate of change in the CO2 concentration. Calculation of the second derivative of the CO2 concentration using annual increments from the original time series gave a series that had a statistically significant correlation with the annual increment temperature series. Mathematically this is simply expressed by the differential equation:
    d2(CO2)/dt2 = A * d(Temperature)/dt
    which on integration with respect to time, gives:
    d(CO2)/dt = A * Temperature + B
    where A and B are constants, i.e. temperature controls the rate of change of CO2 concentration. This rules out the possibility that CO2 change causes temperature change.
    Other El Nino events affecting Mauna Loa produced the same relationship. For example, for the 1983 El Nino, the maximum in the Tropics-Land satellite temperature annual increment occurred during November 1982, 3 months ahead of the maximum for the CO2 annual increment at February 1983. Again, for the 1987 El Nino, the maximum in the Tropics-Land satellite temperature annual increment occurred in January 1987, 7 months ahead of the maximum for the CO2 annual increment at August 1987.
    This elementary demonstration that CO2 does not cause warming is not isolated to the Mauna Loa Observatory but is apparent at twenty-seven other CO2 recording stations across the globe ranging from Alert in Northeast Canada down to the South Pole station. In summary, these data show that on average the maximum for the rate of change in CO2 concentration per annum lagged the maximum for the rate of change in Land Temperature by two and two-third months.

    The most recent report by the IPCC: “Climate Change 2014: Synthesis Report. Contribution of Working Groups I, II and III to the Fifth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change” states on page 8, as follows

    SPM 2. Future Climate Changes, Risks and Impacts
    Continued emission of greenhouse gases will cause further warming and long-lasting changes in all components of the climate system, increasing the likelihood of severe, pervasive and irreversible impacts for people and ecosystems. Limiting climate change would require substantial and sustained reductions in greenhouse gas emissions which, together with adaptation, can limit climate change risks.
    SMP 2.1 Key drivers of future climate
    Cumulative emission of CO2 largely determine global mean surface warming by the late 21st century and beyond. …..

    The above analysis has shown the IPCC assertions to be unwarranted and that the IPCC has mistaken cause and effect. It is the temperature that is a significant control on the emission of CO2 which explains why all of the IPCC predictions to date have failed to materialize.

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    • #
      Ron C.

      Beven, as you show in your comment, changes in CO2 concentrations follow temperature changes on all time scales. This is also what Murry Salby demonstrates.
      https://rclutz.wordpress.com/2016/06/18/fearless-physics-from-dr-salby/

      Then there is the additional job of estimating the effect on temperature from oceanic and solar variability. For example,
      https://rclutz.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/quantifying-natural-climate-change/

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      • #
        Bevan Dockery

        Thank you Ron C, I am aware of Prof Murry Salby’s contribution. His latest book would make very interesting reading. I consider that my analysis supports Prof Salby’s work.

        However, I think that my proposition that the second time derivative of the CO2 concentration correlates with the first time derivative of the temperature is new knowledge. It emphasises the conclusion that CO2 does not cause global warming but that the temperature level is the dominant driver of the time rate of production of atmospheric CO2 from the combination of all sources and sinks.

        This can be clearly seen in the new book’s graphic of the “Global Changes in Atmospheric CO2 Levels Lag Global Temperature”. The maxima in the CO2 annual change corresponds with the zero in the Temperature change and the maxima and minima for the Temperature change correspond to the points of inflection for the CO2 annual change maxima showing that the rate of change of the CO2 annual rate of change, ie. second derivative, corresponds to the Temperature annual rate of change.

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    • #
      TdeF

      You have just discovered Henry’s law, Concentration of CO2= constant * T.
      98% of all the gaseous free CO2 is in solution in the world’s oceans.
      Despite the idea that most is at depth which does not interact, according to the IPCC, there is no evidence of this, just another proposition. Gas behaves differently.
      So CO2 concentration is proportional to surface temperature. Of course.
      Then you can measure C14 and prove that there is almost no CO2 from fossil fuel, so there is no problem.
      Finally, as Prof Murry Selby showed, CO2 varies with the integral of air temperature, so impulse and thus surface temperature of water, which covers 2/3 of the planet.

      This is just science. Who need real science when you have ‘The Science’ as promulgated by the minions of the self justifying IPCC?

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        Being pedantic, he did not discover Henry’s law. Henry’s law was discovered by someone called Henry.

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          TdeF

          Being pedantic means rediscovering or confirming what we already know is true from Physical chemistry. As you point out this simple rule that gases leave water when heated was discovered by William Henry (1775 to 1836) more than 200 years ago. To argue against Henry’s law, the IPCC have had to say that warming the surface does not increase CO2 because most of the water and therefore most of the CO2 is at great depth.

          Perversely warmists argue that more CO2 produces more warmth but also more CO2 in the surface water, defying Henry’s law and thus acidifying the oceans (none of which are acidic). All of this proves you can semantically twist science like Bible quotations to imply the reverse of the truth. Now red hand that!

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        TdeF

        Interesting, I get one more red hand than the original post? Must be a minion.

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      Richard

      So true Brevan. Murry has some excellent video presentations demonstrating that temperature controls CO2. I think the increase in CO2 is largely temperature induced too, you can see my argument here.

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        Bevan Dockery

        Thank you Richard, your reference looks like a challenging read. From a quick scan I presume that you are pointing out that the IPCC tells porkies which anyone aware of the history of the IPCC via Maurice Strong knows full well that it was set up for the political purpose of destroying the economic dominance of the first World nations by demonising fossil fuel and making the World a fairer place, namely, everyone poor together.

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        • #
          Richard

          Pretty much. The CAGW-lobby generally assume that all of the increase in atmospheric CO2 over its estimated pre-industrial value of 280ppmv is due to human emissions, although they have no basis for this assumption in fact or reason and it flies in the face of Henry’s law which implies that the world’s oceans will absorb about 50 times more CO2 than remains in the atmosphere at equilibrium. The IPCC apply the Revelle Factor instead which assumes the oceans can only absorb a small fraction of human emissions upon equilibrium, about 10%, thereby giving CO2 in the atmosphere an extraordinarily long life-time. Solomon 2009 estimates a lifetime for CO2 of 1,000 years based on the Revelle Factor. Try following up on some of the references to purportedly ‘scientific’ works on the Revelle Factor and you will find that they lead back to Revelle & Suess 1957 who proposed the idea and suggested that the dissociation of CO2 into HCO3 and CO32 would limit the amount of CO2 the oceans could absorb. It’s utter nonsense though, and flies in the face of Henry’s law, as explained in the link. Wikipedia’s page on the Revelle Factor contains essentially no information on the this apparently well-proven law of physics and leads to references that cannot be checked or verified. Such vacuous sources provide no hard information at all about anything and are not authentic in any meaningful scientific terms.

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            Richard

            My, my, look at all these red-thumbs, and yet no-one giving them out has the balls to post something saying why they disagree.

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              Richard,
              I don’t do thumbz, but there are multiple parts to the “Revelle Factor”! The actual absorption into the ocean from atmospheric CO2 is very slow. Most of the oceanic CO2 comes from existing carbonic acid and desolved CO2 in river runoff. The release of excess ocean dissolved CO2 with increasing temperature is as fast as the ocean surface temperature increase. The babble from the Climate Clowns is what all now expect; not science, but instead fantasy for profit.

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                KinkyKeith

                Interesting

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                Richard

                I don’t do thumbz, but there are multiple parts to the “Revelle Factor”! The actual absorption into the ocean from atmospheric CO2 is very slow.

                What do you mean by “very slow?” The oceans absorb atmospheric CO2 very rapidly, absorbing around 340 Gts of CO2 each year. Absorption of atmospheric CO2 by the ocean alone (ignoring other sinks) gives a residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere of only 8.8 years. The fast absorption of atmospheric CO2 by the oceans is perhaps most evident by the fast removal of anthropogenic nuclear-C14 after the 1963 test-ban treaty, which shows a residence time of around 8 to 12 years, depending on who you ask.

                I don’t do thumbz, but there are multiple parts to the “Revelle Factor”!

                What “multiple parts” are you referring to?

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                Richard July 6, 2016 at 8:46 pm

                (“I don’t do thumbz, but there are multiple parts to the “Revelle Factor”! “)

                “What “multiple parts” are you referring to?”

                The ‘Revelle factor’ as used by the Climate Clowns is the small slow part, the actual absorption of CO2 by the ocean water surface from the atmosphere asthe temperature is reduced. The fast part is from existing CO2 in river water runoff. The Clowns use this Revelle factor to fool folk into thinking CO2 persists in the atmosphere for 1000s of years. Same old scam.

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    • #
      Steven Fraser

      So, what do you the 5-month lag on CO2 concentration will be at Mauna Loa as the El Niño temps dissipate?

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      Peter C

      Bevan,

      I would like to see your argument published with the supporting charts and graphs. Perhaps Jo would allow a guest post.

      A question for now. CO2 levels are increasing at an increasing rate, if the measurements at Mauna Loa and Cape Grim are correct.
      http://www.csiro.au/greenhouse-gases/

      How does that equate with a static global temperature (The Pause)? Did the two strong El Niño events 1998 and 2016 show up in the CO2 records?

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        Richard

        Yeah, the strong 1998 El Nino apparently did show up. The increases in CO2 were as follows:

        1996 = 1.07 ppmv
        1997 = 1.98 ppmv
        1998 = 2.80 ppmv
        1999 = 1.34 ppmv

        1997 was quite hot too.

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        Bevan Dockery

        Peter C, yes the 1998 El Nino temperature showed a corresponding rise and fall in the annual rate of change of the CO2 concentration. For the 2016 El Nino we await more data but the d(CO2)/dt rose as did the temperature as per the correlation between the two.
        Further, through the pause in temperature for this century, there has been a corresponding pause in d(CO2)/dt.
        It would be great to have my account displayed in full on a Web site but I have tried Dr Roy Spencer, Dr John Christy, Anthony Watts – WUWT, Jo Nova, Viv Forbes, The Australian Newspaper, Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt – at least said “Thank you Bevan”, Dr Tim Ball, Prof Judith Curry – at least said “Thanks Bevan, I’ll take a look at this and get back to you”, and more but to no avail. The best response was Prof Ole Humlum with “This was an interesting read ….Good luck with your ongoing work…..”.
        I wonder whether or not I am getting the Doug Cotton treatment. Trying CSIRO climate scientists, the Bureau of Meteorology or the Australian Academy of Science makes one feel like being treated as a fool. However I take consolation in the quote:
        “Nothing is foolproof, because fools are so ingenious!”

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    • #
      RB.

      Nobody measured global CO2 levels to that sort of precision from Mauna Loa. Look at how good the correlation between derivative of CO2 levels from Cape Grim and Mauna Loa are. After 12 month smoothing, the SD for the difference between the two since 1976 is 0.045 ppm/month. The SD for the unsmoothed difference is 1.4 ppm/month, about 10 times greater than what you would expect from using a 12 month average. Looks like someone cocked up and added too much random error to the Grim data.

      No wonder those satellite estimates of CO2 levels around the globe seem to have ended up in the forgettery. It shows how much CO2 levels vary a lot around the world and just how unrealistic the correlation is.

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    Robert O

    Sometimes when I want to relax I listen to YouTube music as I did the other day. I quite like S. American folklore music including the Tango. Anyhow the other day I was listening to La cumparsita, perhaps the most famous tango tune coming from Montevideo and played originally in the café “La Giralda” in that city.

    Anyhow with this rendition of the tango there is as series of 1930′s photographs of Montevideo street scenes. About halfway through the tango there is the image of an airship, presumably a Zepplin as there were not many of this size.

    In Wikipedia it says that were four built in this period, three were used for passenger transport, including the Atlantic crossing, and one was used by the US Navy. It seems that this one was LZ-127, a sister ship of the Hindenburg, which spectacularly crashed in NY. It undertook 590 flights including trips to S. America and travelled around 1,600,000 km. Not bad for an “aircraft” with a cruising speed of 130 kph. or 12,000 hours of flying time.

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      TdeF

      Thanks. Fascinating. I loved Concorde too. It crashed only once and was immediately taken out of service but such an exciting flight, 3 hours 20 minutes New York to London and v.v. David Frost caught it every day, to run two shows simultaneously, one in London and one in New York. It is a tragedy that no one can experience crossing the Atlantic at 2000kph with lobster and Madame Cliquot, Veuve Cliquot with the sky above black and speckled with bright stars at 60,0000 feet. Sometimes in technology we go backwards.

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        It crashed only once and was immediately taken out of service.

        The sad thing is, that is probably the most profound statement that I shall read today.

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          RB.

          Really? Don’t you think lamenting not being able to eat lobster and drink overpriced bubbly at 20000 km/h in an airliner bleeding money is a tad first world problemish?

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            TdeF

            Who said Zeppelins were cheap? You had to be rich and you could always take weeks by boat. You still can. Sure high speed 900km/hr Jet Air travel is now cheap and mass transportation by air and even 17 hour no stop flights like Melbourne/Houston a reality on the huge A380, but that is the wisdom of hindsight. It was never cheap. Then there is fabulous luxury, if you can afford it. It was a great pleasure to be able to fly Concorde. Worth every cent.

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              RB.

              Not having a dig at those who wanted to spend their hard earned that way. It might have been great engineering (except for that one flaw that was fixed) but the business model was bad.

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                TdeF

                The awful tragedy of the one crash was caused by an engineer on the wing changing the air brake immediately before takeoff. Apparently he left his tool on the wing and the French pilot took off immediately, the spanner fell off, bounced and went through the fuel tank. The skin was only 1mm thick!

                So the world lost one of the most incredible planes in history with tens of thousands of flights, but it was not a financial success against the new 747 jumbos. A bit like the Greens Very Fast Trains which all run at a loss when you would just like to get there at 180km/hr at normal prices not 350km/hr at ridiculous prices. Double the speed is far more than 4x the cost, 4x as long to slow down and much more than 4x as dangerous. Malcolm Turnbull though could make a profit, he says. However it is hard to increase the value of land along the route as the train cannot stop! Typical Malcolm. A rich lawyer banker with no understanding of technology who inherited $3M when he was 30. Sure beats having to build a business. Take over someone else’s dreams.

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        Peter C

        Concorde did return to service,although briefly, following the fiery crash.

        Current large aircraft in some ways are returning to the airship era with greater comfort, beds, louges etc to help pass the time.

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        Annie

        I’d love to have flown on Concorde. We saw the British prototype on her maiden flight from Filton to Fairford and doing her test flights, accompanied by a Canberra. One of the great disappointments of my life was that I never would when she was retired.

        My favourite aircraft in the 60s was the Vickers VC10 and my present favourite is the Airbus A380. The A380 is so quiet! I think it is beautiful too, for all its vast size.

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          Annie

          I believe the A380 and other members of the Airbus family use technology proved by Concorde.

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      It’s the oddest thing about music.

      You’re born into an era, and the music you come to know as you turn 12/13 or so, and from then on, that era becomes ‘your’ music. Each new generation thinks that is is ‘they’ who have ‘invented’ music.

      Then, later on, as you age, you hear music from the new era, and there’s some of it you like, and your tastes gradually expand. Then you hear earlier music from before your time, and you like that. Then from out of your genre, and you like that.

      It creeps up on you, and before too long, you actually find that your tastes in music become more rounded, fuller.

      You get so used to the music from your own era that it sometimes surprises you that there really is so much you like.

      I came to a love of music as The Shadows and The Beatles ‘broke’, and some time in the 70′s, I found that my taste broadened, and it made me feel so much more appreciative of most music from most eras.

      It sort of crept up on me really, as I kept thinking ….. well, this is from my era, even though the genre was different.

      One of the early times it happened was with a guy who was just starting out, Ry Cooder, and hey, what a name that is now.

      I had never heard anything from him, well no one had, and he released an album of what is called ‘roots music’. I heard it at a party and it intrigued me.

      It took me a while to find the album, and some of the music, while not really popular in any way, was just so good, and I really suppose that some of is an acquired taste.

      The album was called Into The Purple Valley, and had one of the iconic album covers of all time, front and back.

      I did a Post on two songs from the album, with some text about how it came to me, and on some of those wonderful songs, and each of them had a story.

      Here’s the link to that Post with those two songs.

      Sunday Music – FDR In Trinidad

      Tony.

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        Greg Cavanagh

        Tony, your intro is exactly how I feel and reflect my own experience as well.

        The Beatles were slightly before my time and I never really liked them. The Beach Boys were playing while I was about 10 or so and loved them. But most of my musical tastes come from my late teen years, when I could afford to buy albums and play them at my leisure.

        Music, and how we gain an affinity to a particular era has fascinated me too.
        I’ve also been contemplating social norms, and how we become dedicated to the social structure we grew up in, almost to the point of excluding any other form as acceptable. Gang mentality, country Australia mentality, City mentality, Italian culture, American cultures (and there are many there), Mexican culture.

        I suspect somehow our brains get hard-wired to fit a style, whether it be music or culture. The idea of beautiful woman, housing style, car size ect. All fascinating stuff, and all fixed in our brains at some point, and never given up.

        PS: The 72 Lamborghini has always been and will always be, the ultimate car in my mind.

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    toorightmate

    I think I should send a Get Well card to the Mt Stapylton radar facility which normally services the Brisbane area.
    It has been on the blink for over a week.
    EITHER BOM is using Telstra technicians to resolve the problem OR the BOM folk are very busy homogenising cold winter temperatures.

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    richard ilfeld

    Commentator: What do you think of a hung parliament?
    Citizen: I’m in favor of it.

    It is passing strange. We have a number of the major governments of the world stuck in a form of gridlock, where the polarization on both sides prevents compromise. Yet the “moderate leader” seems a contradiction in terms. Back home, there was “nothing in the middle of the road but a double yellow line and dead armadillos”.

    It also seems that the climate change myth is at the heart of a lot of the polarization. Like all theological arguments undertaken by governments, there is no need to compromise.

    Water rights? at some point you have to actually allocate the resource, and you can look back and see hoe it worked. Taxation, you actually have to set policy and steal the money, and you can look back and see how it worked. Fighting crime, reducing discrimination, fixing poverty, supporting labor unions, educating children — you have to take some action, then look back to see how it worked.

    When you can spend two decades “fighting warming” (and spending billions), when the gizmos buzzing around in orbit that we all learned to trust as ‘The Space Program’ show no warming — no wonder folks can’t decide.

    Not just in the US, and Australia — has the world ever been so bereft of leaders in living memory? I’d maintain that you can’t lead from the liberal left (US perspective) flogging an issue that defies common sense, and you can’t lead from the other side when your arguments fall on a group suspending reality.

    Perhaps it is our sad fate to find leadership in war and depression, when reality breaks through the miasma of the then-current political myth.

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      Graeme No.3

      richard ifeld:

      The neo-Keynesian idea that a Government can spend its way out of a recession morphed into the belief by most politicians that ‘they were in charge’. Hence Keating’s boast about ‘his hands on the levers’.
      The middle & Left still believe that more government spending will be good, and they can use that to ‘solve our problems’. This has led to the idea that they could eliminate child poverty, depressions, climate change etc. Hence Turnbull and Shorten think a deficit isn’t a problem.
      The right think in terms of personal debt as a burden, and the same with government debt, and want balanced budgets and minimal government controls. They look on the huge mountain of debt that has been generated in the last 50 years as the cause of the current world depression, and baulk at any increase.
      In the past an economic boom was followed by a bust with unemployment, retrenchment, misery and deflation. Australia was shielded from the initial stages of the world depression but is now in trouble, and neither side knows what to do, and how to cope. The Left want to spend, spend, spend without any idea where the funds will come from. Most of the public think this is a good idea thinking that inflation will shrink the debt. The right are worried about deflation which means that the debt goes up in value and the depression is prolonged.
      Add to that the tendency for both parties to ‘shrink their gene pool’ to pre-selecting clones of themselves so they lack experience in the real world (mostly) and you would be correct in saying that “they haven’t a clue”.

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        Robert Muldoon, one time New Zealand Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, is reported to have said, “Having a deficit is bad, but having a budget surplus is much worse”.

        I admit that I do not understand that at all. If anybody can give me a clue, I will be grateful. I seem to have lost the one I had.

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          Greg Cavanagh

          They tell us to put a little away each week, to save something despite the hardship. Yet they themselves spend like madmen, on the dumbest things imaginable. This has not passed our notice.

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          James Murphy

          I understand this to mean that, from a political perspective, when there’s a deficit, then “the people” don’t really expect anything too much in the way of grand plans and shiny new toys, but when there’s a surplus, then everyone expects money to be spent, projects undertaken, and a vast array of problems (perceived, or real) to be solved.

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          Rick Will

          The answer is given in the 30 minute of this clip:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Gg1RGAO6k

          Ageing populations in the developed world are creating havoc with the economic thinking that propelled developed cultures in the latter parts of the 20th century. Economic growth is no longer a given in the developed world.

          Japan has one of the oldest populations on earth. High savings rate is a consequence of ageing population in a healthy economy. Those savings are funded from government debt and obligations of overseas borrowers. Fundamentally the savings give the aged a claim over future production from the indebted younger people still working.

          Germany also has an old population with high savings. In their case a large part of the obligation has fallen on indebted old people and governments in the southern European countries. It can never be paid back. Ultimately the young people in Germany will have to support their aged.

          China is younger than Japan but ageing faster. When deflation sets in in China around 2020 it will impact global economics much greater than Japan’s deflationary cycle, which started in the mid 1990s.

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            The (new)older are saving only fiat money, printed with impressive symbolic characteristics. Any true wealth is in the skill (or lack thereof) of those working hard to get above the fraud of “impressive symbolic characteristics.” of the PROPERLY DRESSED elite.
            Perhaps someday will come youngsters with little “education/brainwashing”, but much personal integrity imbibed by older (parents) that can still imagine “what might become from their own offsprouts”.
            If each and every oldfart, without regard to anything so called PC, can somehow get ‘integrity’ to each and every offsprout, or all new-sprouts while deliberately rejecting the deadly toxic PC righteous BS! Please, please, please!

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        Another Ian

        Graeme

        My idea for a cartoon in the era of Keating’s “Hands on levers” was him looking around the door of a room full of levers being manipulated frantically by the treasurer of the week (sweating profusely) and saying “Paul, it would help a hell of a lot if these had labels to say what they do”.

        As Chiefio mentions – what Keynes actually said has almost never been put into practice.

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          el gordo

          ‘…what Keynes actually said has almost never been put into practice.’

          Adolf Hitler was a big fan of Keynes.

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            Rereke Whakaaro

            Hitler pulled the German economy out of a depression, made German industry the envy of the other European states, and then developed meglomania.

            Some days, you just can’t win.

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              Graeme No.3

              Actually he had to go to war about the time he did because the German economy was nearing collapse. Had he adopted the British method of arms procurement it would have collapsed by 1938, without much to show for it. Instead he put party members in charge and they held competitions for equipment. Thus the best was chosen and industry had a strong incentive to improve their products.
              The UK approach was bureaucratic, lengthy and expensive, and didn’t always result in the best product. Indeed it has been argued (David Divine, The Broken Wing) that the best British planes were produced in the teeth of opposition from the Air Ministry. They tried to cancel the Spitfire twice before it went into service. The Hurricane first sold for export etc.
              After 1939 it wasn’t only Hitler who wanted complete control. The german bureaucracy tried to turn the Heikel 177 four engined bomber into a dive bomber. The potentially war winning Me262 was delayed for 18 months while they tried to turn it into a bomber (sucking up to Hitler). I suppose these days they still wouldn’t support development of the coal burning jet.

              Comment delayed – it is wet and as gloomy here as Turnbull and the power failed. I can only hope that after a period of instability that normal services will resume.

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                el gordo

                From memory the Germans were forbidden to make attack aircraft because of WW1, so they built them secretly in Russia with the assistance of Stalin.

                The rest is history.

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                Graeme No.3

                Stalin suffered from Turnbull’s syndrome – he thought he was smarter than everyone else.

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              and then developed meglomania.

              He was a megalomaniac long before that.

              Germany’s economic recovery from the Depression was encumbered by the measures that Hitler undertook. His crony capitalism and nationalising any key industry player (e.g. Junkers) that wasn’t crony capitalist, severely damaged free competition and the market.

              And it wasn’t just in armaments. Hugo Junkers had, in response to a Nazi competition to provide affordable housing in the post-war period, designed and developed factory, mass-produced cottages using well-insulated corrugated steel walls and roof that could be transported to site and erected in a day; and moved into within a few days. Junkers’ design didn’t win because Hitler said that a house is made of bricks and mortar. Thus, as the Führer had said that Junkers house wasn’t a house, it didn’t sell very well.

              As to the capacity of a nation to recover after total devastation, compare the post WW1/Depression “recovery” of Germany to that of West Germany after WW2. The country’s first Finance Minister Ludwig Erhardt had been a student of Austrian Economics and left the market to solve many of the details. The result was called an “Economic Miracle” by those who did not understand the capacity of a market to flexibly adapt; to use available resources; to innovate and offer products and for people to enjoy the benefit of building their own prosperity.

              The EU is claiming that it brought prosperity and peace to Europe; spitting on those who actually established the peace and who built the prosperity. That such statements are not immediately exposed for the ignorant babble that they are, is indicative of the ignorance of journalists and media flunkies; and the unjustified shame in which the history of western civilisation is regarded within the pop cultures of western civilisation.

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    Robert O

    Wind Energy for the month of June

    Overall production from the eastern Aust. wind turbines was at 38% capacity: Previous months were March 22%, April 23%, and May 55%. The increased production for the past two months has been due to a series of strong frontal systems passing along the southern coastline.

    The maximum production noted was 3,100 MW and minimum was 250 MW (Out of 3669 MW of rated capacity). During the month there were 8 occasions when production dropped below 500 MW, including one of 48 + hours at the beginning of the month.

    Looking at consumption patterns for electricity the maximum consumption of 30,000 MW occurs at 6 pm. This is usually made up of thermal generation about 24,000 MW, Hydro generation about 4,000 MW and between 1,000 and 2,000 MW of wind energy. There is never any solar input at this hour, or in the morning at 8 am. for that matter.

    Renewable energy is part of the manifestos of the three major political parties, and according to the ABC on the minds of 80% of the population as an important issue along with climate change.

    So if we were to have 100% renewable energy we need another 26,000 MW in addition to the existing 4,000 MW of hydro to make the required 30,000 MW. Based on this months production there would a need for 26,000/38%, or 68,420 MW of windfarm capacity to cater for this remembering solar cannot provide any input.

    However, when production drops to 10%, which occurs regularly, one would need 260,000 MW of wind turbine capacity, or about 20,000 MW of back-up generation to keep the lights on.

    Currently there is 3669 MW of capacity. For 26,000 MW of capacity one is looking at a minimum of 13,000 sq. km. of suitable land, and probably more, but for 260,000 MW it is a minimum of 130,000 sq. km. Metro Melbourne plus Sydney is about 20,000 sq. km., so clearly an area 5 times larger than this covered with wind turbines is little more than a joke.

    Even 26,000 MW of wind turbines would be both technically very difficult, costly and environmentally unacceptable to the population, and as for 260,000 MW just an impractical political thought bubble espoused by nearly all politicians and parties who do not know what they are talking about.

    So the rationale is 26,000 MW of wind turbines and another 20,000 MW of back-up thermal generation, probably gas or diesel generation, but were not we were going to shut down 26,000 of thermal generation to go for renewable energy!

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      I would be interested in knowing the maintenance infrastructure required for the number of turbines required to deliver 260 GW* of power.

      How many perminant staff would be required, at what salaries, and how much driving, or helicopter flying time, would be required to visit each turbine at the optimum maintenance frequency. What would be the costs of travel? And so on.

      The pipe dream you have, depends upon what you put in the pipe.

      * Doesn’t 260 GW sound like a much smaller number than 260,000 MW? People tend to hear the number, and ignore the scale.

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        After-thought: Could you even visit an operating wind farm, of any appreciable size, by helicopter?

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          Analitik

          Of course you can – that’s how “normal” maintenance is carried out on offshore wind turbines.

          RenewEconomy stated that the costs of running Australia’s wind farms works out at around A$20/MWh which is more than a brown coal plant – http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/infigen-energy-where-to-from-here-79184

          I analysed the whole article here – http://joannenova.com.au/2016/05/weekend-unthreaded-116/#comment-1803453

          Looking at the operating costs in any of Infigen annual statements suggests that this is correct (since all they do is run wind farms).

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            Rereke Whakaaro

            Thanks for that.

            I asked the question, because I had a mental vision of a helicopter having to dart between the spinning blades of a wind farm consisting of hundreds of towers – a bit like X-Fighters dodging between laser beams in Starwars.

            I need to get out more …

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              Graeme No.3

              Given the amount of time that the turbines are working that is fantasy. Besides the helicopters are like Turnbull, they sneak up from behind.
              I haven’t the reference handy but I read last year of a wind ‘farm’ in the USA west where teams of two would run maintenance on turbines, roughly one a day. They would do 48 turbines over 2 months then start over again. The pay was an attraction but I guess they had time to admire the view.

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              I imagine that there is an increasing number of people who dream of visiting a wind farm with a helicopter — gunship. [Game concept passed to more talented programmer for implementation.]

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                Bernd Felsche July 4, 2016 at 3:05 pm

                There was an AU customer for a Hughes MD 500 complete with mounted chain gun and FLIR night sight, for hunting something! They flew the whole thing into one of those Culmno-granite clouds!

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        Rereke mentions this really good point:

        * Doesn’t 260 GW sound like a much smaller number than 260,000 MW? People tend to hear the number, and ignore the scale

        As you know, I’ve made a Submission for that Queensland 50% Renewables by 2030 Plan.

        We visit with our daughter and her family every Friday afternoon, and after making the submission, my good lady wife mentioned it to our daughter, how it took up so much time that week to ten days.

        Our daughter wanted to know the basics about it, and that gave me a good handle on what the ordinary public might think of something like this.

        When I mentioned that the State wants to replace (note here delivered power and not Nameplate) 27TWH of power, her response was ….. only 27TWH, as if that seemed like a relatively small amount, you know ….. doable. I did that purposely (27TWH) to try and gauge the thinking on how that would be received, and I got the response I expected, if only to then further explain just what that meant. This is no reflection on our daughter who is probably a little more switched on than most, mainly from hearing it all from me.

        People tend to hear just the number and not understand what the (following) terminology actually indicates, and very few people have the Maths to know what those terms actually indicate.

        I then asked her what it indicates for consumption on her household power bill, and hey, no reflection on her, as most people would not know how the power bill indicates their consumption in KiloWattHours. (KWH)

        I then explained that the 27TWH was 27 Billion KWH, and it looks bigger if you actually write it down as 27,000,000,000KWH, then adding that the average home consumes around 20KWH per day.

        That got the point across then, the difference between a small sounding number and the actuality of what that number really was.

        Rereke mentions the difference between GW and MW, a factor of a thousand, and again that relationship can be extrapolated down to the single unit. (one to ten)

        I then went on to mention that the saving of 27TWH meant the closure of 5 coal fired power plants in Queensland, and the response was (as I entirely expected) ….. just five of them, again the impression being here that was also altogether doable.

        Something similar applies with the replacement of the now closed coal fired plant in South Australia, you know replacing that ONE plant with just ONE CSP Plant. (the proposed Solar Thermal Plant)

        I pointed off into the distance and mentioned that 20KM from the tip of my finger was Stanwell Power Station. (coal fired and with a Nameplate of 1460MW)

        Using the example from the Queensland Government of their all singing all dancing state of the art fabulously wonderful Solar 60 PV power plant which is proposed, I mentioned that it’s Nameplate was 60MW.

        So, just to equal the Nameplate alone you would need (1460 divided by 60) 24 of those solar plants. Then I carefully explained, in simplified terms the actual power delivery run time (Capacity Factor) for both plants, Stanwell 80% and the solar plant 20% (rounded for ease of explanation, but it’s closer to only 17%) hence you would now need four times as many to equal the total generated power.

        So now, just to replace Stanwell, you would need 96 of those solar plants.

        I then explained that would still be pretty much useless as the coal fired plant delivers its power all the time, and the solar plants, even with the same nominal actual power delivery is only for the five hours or so around Midday. See the point here?

        So, it’s not on a one plant for one plant replacement. I also did a simplified version for a wind plant using Macarthur (Australia’s largest at Nameplate 420MW) hence around ten of them just for Stanwell’s actual power delivery.

        Queensland needs to replace 5 coal fired plants with renewables. So, while it seems like five for five, it’s actually five for ….. well lots and lots and lots.

        So, here we have the average person having all but zero understanding of the Macro (MW and TWH) and even the micro. (one plant for one plant)

        Until something like all of this is ….. EFFECTIVELY explained to the average person, this myth about renewables will persist.

        Sadly, I cannot see that happening, either in the near term or even the long term.

        The renewables lobby rely on that, and the myths that they perpetuate will persist, and myths they are.

        Tony.

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          TonyfromOz July 4, 2016 at 11:22 am

          “Rereke mentions this really good point:”

          I have again visited your site, there perhaps a more important point!, your Marlin6 wrote:

          A former governor of Wisconsin had it right when he reportedly said:
          “The only three things I want the Federal Government to do for me are deliver my mail, keep any enemies out of my front yard, and stay the hell out of my life.”

          I think all would agree on the ‘proper’amount to contribute by each to have just that be provided, but nothing more whatsoever!!

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          Robert O

          Obviously, the QLD government hasn’t read your submission about renewable energy. On the ABC news tonight a 350 MW windfarm on eleven properties north of Brisbane somewhere by AGL, with the usual propaganda about saving thousands of tonnes of CO2 and producing enough electricity for thousands of homes. Didn’t catch all of it and will listen later.

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            AndyG55

            Does anyone know which electricity supplier in NSW does NOT cow-tow to the “renewable” agenda?

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      Robert O

      Currently the SE wind turbines are operating at about 50% capacity, however, according to BOM’s synoptic charts towards mid week, when the current front passes, there will be little wind to power the turbines. Those in S. Aust. and Victoria are likely to be close to idle, sometimes the NSW ones don’t follow this pattern, sometimes they do. Let’s see.

      Interesting to see how Qld. is going to reach its target of 50% renewable with wind turbines as there never seems to be much wind, or occasionally far too much with the cyclones. Most turbines need about 40 kph winds for max. production.

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      Geoffrey Williams

      Great blog Robert-highly informative and to the point;
      Clearly any system of power supply is only as good or reliable as it’s weakest link. And as you point out, wind and solar are the weakest link, as they are only a PART TIME energy source.
      The more solar/wind power generators that are installed then the greater the back-up required to maintain the base load.
      To believe that renewable energy is going to be the ‘saviour’ of the planet one has to be either a totally uncompromising idealist without any consideration of the cost of the electricity produced, or simply an ‘uninformed’ living in ‘cuckoo land’.
      There is of course a third group who are those that can make money from renewables.
      Geoff W

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      Robert O

      A sobering account of the downside of wind energy.

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      Greg Cavanagh

      That was 2011. I understand China is slowly addressing these issues.

      The problem with China is that they are growing up so fast, the laws are out of date so fast and with extra large consequences.

      When a new technology is invented in a modern society the laws also lag behind, but the consequences are smaller because the uptake isn’t as quick or all-invasive.

      They will catch up eventually and they’ll be a large modern country with upteen million laws about every facet of life, just like we are today.

      Their industrial waste problems is simply because the laws are lagging behind, but industry is growing so fast, the consequences are equally fast.

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        What a lame,lame,lame excuse!! The problem is the vast PROFIT to be made by FAKE green renewable SCAM brought on intentionally by your elected government bureaucrats! :-(

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          Greg Cavanagh

          How exactly is that a lame excuse?

          Profit always comes first for those who are in the profit business.

          Nor is toxic waste caused by green renewables, it is a consequence, but not a cause.

          The cause is the lack of appropriate laws in the country where the manufacture is being undertaken. Fix the laws and you fix the toxic waste problem.

          Now you explain in a coherent manner where I am wrong…

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            Mari C

            Profit motive is not what is at stake in China. Toxic waste that is produced to meet market demands for highly specific and in-demand components is a direct result of that demand – be it Green Clean or dirty fossils. Greenies can’t say their expelled used food doesn’t stink just because it’s -green- and clean. It isn’t, btw. If extracting coal and oil, and the refining processes for crude oil into usable product, is so dirty because they pollute the areas they are performed in, then so is Green Clean component part material extractions and refinings.

            China is NOT in the profit business, it’s a socialist communist country that advertises itself as a worker’s paradise. China IS making money on destroying a small portion of its lands, and maybe killing off excess population at the same, so that it can become the industrial and manufacturing leader. Being, at least in name – communist – there should be NO profit motive behind any of the mining, processing, refining, building, industrializing, manufacturing, etc. But there it is – China is making a ton of money, a ton of profit. And the top echelon is enjoying every bit of it – both in the personal gain sense, and in the Our Country Is Growing sense. As long as the money comes in, and the news can’t get out, the same thing reported on in 2011 is still happening – if not in Baotou, somewhere.

            It’s a huge country. With a captive, repressed, indoctrinated, highly controlled and, for the most part, incredibly poor, population.

            China is also not investing in building its own hyper expensive and fairly useless wind or solar farms. They are building coal and gas plants, will probably go big into nuclear as the monies continue to pile up.

            China is all for the developed, and other developing, countries to go Green and Clean. It means more money for the fat cats at the top, more money to build more plants, more money to process more ores for more rare earths.

            The environmental impact, the disaster that windmills are, is far, far greater than people are shown, and far far greater than the alternative – which is to stay with fossil fuels until a technology and process for truly renewable, truly clean, truly -useful- and steady supplies of power is found.

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              Greg Cavanagh

              It sounds like you are saying much the same as I am.

              The difference between your statement and mine is; you’re saying the Chinese government is in control and allows the toxic waste, I’m saying the industry is owned by a someone or a company and is taking advantage of lax laws.

              Of the two, I don’t know which one is more correct.

              Other than that, you and I agree that China is taking advantage of European stupidity. The toxic waste in China is a consequence of European policy combined with someone taking advantage of that in China. The European policy didn’t create the problem, but contributed to it through funding, but had no direct influence on how those things were manufactured.

              I don’t know what Will Janoschka is objecting to as he wasn’t exactly coherent, nor has he returned to explain.

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    Dave in the States

    I recently read some commentary on the fall of the Roman Empire and the last of the official persecutions of the Christians (circa 300 AD) by Diocletian:

    The empire he (Diocletian) took over was in deplorable condition. Government departments were badly disorganized. Barbarians were crossing the frontiers and threatening the security of the empire. Most of the mines had been seized by former emperors whose mismanagement had made them unproductive, or they had been closed because of high taxes. The few surviving mines were producing little mineral wealth. There was widespread unemployment, stagnation in business, an inflated currency, and a constant threat of famine because of the decline of agricultural productivity.

    Sounds a lot like today. The parallels to today’s poor governmental leadership and policies world wide are obvious. I also see parallels to today’s clamoring for climate action by today’s greens to the Diocletian Persecutions of the the Christians.

    Diocletian reasoned that problems of the proceeding 100 years had been caused by people turning away from traditional pagan religions to Christianity; causing disfavor of the nature gods and from nature itself. So if Christianity could be eradicated, reasoned Diocletian, and the pagan rites restored, then the nature gods and nature would once again support progress throughout the empire.

    There are strong parallels to the current anti- fossil fuels attitudes and policies here. Even when demonstrated that anti-fossil fuels policies are not effective or necessary, advocates for climate action often fall back to a position that extracting natural resources are inherently evil and that action, even if only symbolic, will help restore the natural balance and eco-systems. That some how not utilizing fossil fuels will bring wealth. Appease the gods and the gods will work their magic so to speak. They also adopt the attitude that climate action is more just and moral when it can be demonstrated that it is not.

    The persecutions of the Christians were aimed at their leadership, communications, rights, properties, and their infrastructure. From Gibbons:

    Churches (buildings) are to be demolished to the foundations.

    A death penalty is proclaimed for anyone who is presumed to hold secret assemblies for the purpose of Christian worship.

    All Christian sacred books and other equipment used in worship are to be seized and destroyed. Bishops and Elders are required by edict to deliver these to the magistrates.

    All property of the church is to be confiscated by the government.

    If Christians refuse to accept the religions of Rome and forsake their beliefs the following disabilities will ensue:
    a. Persons freeborn are automatically excluded from any government office or employment.
    b. Slaves who do not renounce Christianity are deprived forever of the right to be emancipated
    c. All Christians are to be placed outside the protection of the law and have no redress for loss or confiscation of property.
    d. Christians are not permitted to make complaints to magistrates or courts for injuries suffered by execution of the edict.

    Today we see proposals for restrictions or abolishing of the basic rights, academic freedoms, free speech, legal rights, employment, and restriction of publishing of climate skeptics and skeptical scientists. We also see proposals for legal sanctions and confiscation of private monies of skeptics in this modern day persecution.

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      Dave in the States

      Should read: Today we see proposals for restrictions or abolishing of basics rights…….

      I always miss a word confusing the meaning it seems….
      [Fixed] -Fly

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        el gordo

        The Western Roman Empire came to an end because it had reached its ‘used by’ date and the moral of the story is adapt or perish.

        ‘From AD 250 to 550, the climate flipped, from one decade to the next, between dry and cool, and warm and wet. “Such decadal changes seem to have the most impact” on civilisations, Büntgen says, because they harm agriculture but are not prolonged enough for people to adapt their behaviour.

        ‘The climatic turmoil coincided with political upheaval and waves of human migrations. By AD 500, the western Roman Empire had fallen.’

        New Scientist

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          A decade is roughly one solar cycle. Cause and effect, or coincidence?

          Of course, New Scientist would probably not mention it, either way?

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            el gordo

            What we can say for sure is that a string of cool wet summers in Europe is an indication of regional cooling. This is usually in tandem with frosty winters.

            These clusters of bad harvest years meant starvation.

            The Roman Empire was widespread but there is no escape from climate change, anecdotal evidence suggests that the whole Mediterranean became more droughty.

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    Can we not, at joanne’s, or several other sites even attempt to find out what the word TEMPERATURE may mean?…… Dictionary! Temperature: a measurement that indicates how hot or cold something is : a measurement in degrees showing the heat of something! That is as loosy goosy as the word “COLOR”!! Average temperature has as much meaning as average color!
    Even this little, may be a beginning to attempt to understand just what “temperature” may be, and a true attempt to clearly define “what it cannot be”!
    Because temperature is a measurement! Such cannot be the operand of any mathematical function.

    In mathematics, an operand is the object of a mathematical operation, a quantity on which an operation is performed.

    There can be no S-B flux as such is defined as something that is a ‘function’ of the difference in value of two ‘measurements’ each raised the forth power of the numerical value of each measurement!! Thus by definition if the two ‘measurements’ are not made; their can be no flux! The S-B equation is only an possible upper limit based only upon measurement. Such can never be a physical LAW.
    The academic meteorological Climate Clowns plus the greedy AlGorestas, have had their day (for 30 years) making fools of all science, because TEMPERATURE seems so easy to measure, and means ‘perhaps something yet to be determined’! However that something has turned out to be whatever the scammers wish, in order to steal your hard earnings this week!
    All the best! -will-

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    pat

    woke up to Shorten on ABC this morning saying, if Labor wins Govt, they will save Medicare & act on Climate Change. it made me laugh, because i thought great, a plan based entirely around two lies.
    can’t find any document where he says precisely what i heard, but there is this:

    Bill Shorten speech 3 Jul: Tonight we stand by our program, our ***mandate…
    Real action on climate change…
    And protecting our great national institution and one of the greatest Labor achievements — Medicare!
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/malcolm-turnbull-bill-shorten-election-night-speeches-in-full/news-story/174939d437baf0b536bba7dda8cddd6a

    never mind that CAGW didn’t feature in Labor or Coalition campaigns.

    3 Jul: NYT: Coral Davenport: Hillary Clinton’s Ambitious Climate Change Plan Avoids Carbon Tax
    Hillary Clinton, courting young voters and the broader Democratic base, has promised to one-up President Obama on climate change, vowing to produce a third of the nation’s electricity from renewable sources by 2027, three years faster than Mr. Obama, while spending billions of dollars to transform the energy economy.
    A half-billion solar panels will be installed by 2020, she has promised, seven times the number today…
    “It’s possible, theoretically, to do all this without a price on carbon,” said David Victor, the director of the Laboratory on International Law and Regulation at the University of California, San Diego. But, he added, “it’s hard to see how.”
    ***“The problem is,” he said, “she knows the politics of this are toxic.”…
    ***John Podesta, a former senior counselor to Mr. Obama who is now the chairman of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign, is an architect of both the Obama and Clinton climate change plans. In crafting them, Mr. Podesta, an ardent environmentalist and a seasoned political operative, sought to take substantive action to reduce emissions without turning to Congress, where climate legislation would most likely again be doomed.
    “Secretary Clinton believes that meeting the climate challenge is too important to wait for climate deniers in Congress to pass comprehensive climate legislation,” Mr. Podesta wrote in an emailed statement…
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/us/politics/hillary-clintons-ambitious-climate-change-plan-avoids-carbon-tax.html?_r=1

    Podesta, author of “The Power of Progress: How America’s Progressives Can (Once Again) Save Our Economy, Our Climate and Our Country” (2008), gave the closing remarks at last year’s UN Summit for the Adoption of the Post-2015 Development Agenda 2015 new Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), & was one of the “EMINENT PERSONS” on the Post-2015 Development Agenda panel which paved the way for the SDGs:

    Wikipedia: Post-2015 Development Agenda
    The Post-2015 Development Agenda refers to a process led by the United Nations that aims to help define the future global development framework that will succeed the Millennium Development Goals…
    It comprises 60 UN agencies, as well as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. In June 2012, it published the report “Realizing the Future We Want for All” which serves as an input to the work of the High Level Panel…
    High Level Panel of Eminent Persons
    (includes)
    ***John Podesta, Chair of the Center for American Progress, United States of America
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-2015_Development_Agenda

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    pat

    need a good laugh?

    4 Jul: UK Daily Mail: Inderdeep Bains: The Met Office needs YOU to tell them what the weather is like: Forecaster’s new supercomputer hasn’t got enough data for it to work so amateur meteorologists need to set up stations in their gardens
    Weather service has one of world’s most advanced forecasting computers
    But it is being hindered by the lack of information available to Met Office
    Forecasters asking British public to install weather stations in gardens
    The national weather service has built one of the world’s most technologically advanced forecasting supercomputers that can carry out 16,000 trillion calculations a second.
    But it is being hindered by the lack of data available and the Met Office is now turning to the public for their help…
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3672414/The-Met-Office-needs-tell-s-weather-like-Forecaster-s-new-supercomputer-hasn-t-got-data-work-amateur-meteorologists-need-set-stations-gardens.html

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      Geoffrey Williams

      Perhaps they need another 16,000 trillion weather stations!!
      That should do it!!
      GeoffW

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    handjive

    Today, BoltA says, “If only Turnbull had followed another critical tip from the shrewd Hunt, to hit Labor with an attack on his planned electricity tax – a new carbon tax.”

    BUT, Turnbull couldn’t, because, Turnbull has his own.

    As Jonova posted on May 24, 2016:

    Secret deal: Australia already has an ETS – carbon tax – starts in 5 weeks

    “From July 1, coincidentally the day before the election, the Coalition’s “safeguard mechanism” within its Direct Action Plan will come into force.

    Abbott won on a blood oath to get rid of carbon taxes. He wanted to rule out emissions trading.
    Gore and Palmer forced him to add in a proviso to not rule it out entirely, but to allow a “review” for an ETS.
    When Direct Action was removed the ETS was sold as a deal that would only happen if and when all the major players signed up.

    So Hunt and Turnbull said straight after the coup that trading “might” start from mid 2016.”
    ~ ~ ~
    Perhaps we now know what was discussed over banana splits …

    Clive Palmer and Malcolm Turnbull busted in secret dinner meeting, along with head of treasury Dr Martin Parkinson

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    Turtle of WA

    Malcolm Gillard.

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    David Maddison

    I quite often refer warmists to a video by David Dilley.

    While his presentation seems entirely reasonable to me I would appreciate it if someone can see any faults in it (assuming they exist).

    The video is 49 minutes long.

    https://youtu.be/w4hbKF5-qUE

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    Egor TheOne

    The TurdFull needs to go and take his Climatism BS agenda with him!

    We need a new conservative party instead of an ALP version 2.0.

    Also we need online voting instead of this disorganized paper fiasco with long cues and stupidly long result time.

    What a joke!

    If we can have secure online banking, then we can easily have secure online voting.

    Then voting numbers will increase because it will be easy and convenient to vote.

    What kind of incompetence keeps this from happening.

    The entire political crowd here need a good kick out of the 19th century.

    We can begin with the ‘Bum’s Rush Out’ of ‘Mr Goldman and Sachs of Carbon Credits’,and the self interested cronies that put that dud in charge!

    Now it needs to be NO to big bank and big union governments.

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      AndyG55

      BoltA is going all out on the TURNBULL – RESIGN message !!!

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      Ross

      No matter which way it goes it looks like Australia will have minority Government. The only issue with that is the country getting it’s head around what that means.
      The 2010 Gillard one didn’t really count because the independents supporting her were basically in the same camp.
      In NZ, because of our electoral system, we have had them for quite a long time.( I’m not saying they good but just that it doesn’t mean it is the end of the world). The main effects are you don’t see radical change, generally any change is slow and main downside is you often get the “tail wagging the dog” depending on who the partners to the main party are and how many votes the combination has more than the combined opposition.

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    pat

    4 Jul: SMH: Peter Hannam: ‘Climate-aligned’ investments tipped to soar but Australia’s role remains hazy
    Investors are stepping up funding for so-called “climate-aligned” or green bonds, with the tally rising 16 per cent compared with 2015 to $US694 billion ($924 billion), according to the fifth annual report, Bonds and Climate Change: The State of the Market in 2016 (LINK) compiled by HSBC.
    The tally, which counts bonds explicitly labelled green or those whose main target is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions or build resilience to climate impacts, must multiply if economies are to finance their decarbonisation in time to avoid dangerous warming.
    “Some $US2.5-3 trillion of capital is needed each year in climate change-related investments, with 60-70 per cent of that going to emerging markets,” the report said, adding an “adequate” level of such bond issuance should be in the order of $US1 trillion a year by 2020.
    The report noted Australian issuance of unlabelled climate-aligned bonds is still small – in the order of $2.5 billion – and dominated by rail operator Aurizon…
    Three of the big four banks will join the Australian launch of the bonds report in Sydney on Monday, with Treasury Corporation Victoria and Flexigroup joining the discussion on climate finance.
    However, analysis by climate finance campaign group Market Forces has found lending by the big four to renewable energy projects has dropped so far this year – and fallen short of their declared intensions (sic)…
    John Connor tells Turnbull blah blah…
    http://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/climatealigned-investments-tipped-to-soar-but-australias-role-remains-hazy-20160703-gpxein.html

    ClimateBonds.net: Bonds and Climate Change 2016
    This total is made up of approximately 3,590 bonds from 780 issuers across our climate themes: Transport, Energy, Buildings & Industry, Water, Waste & Pollution and Agriculture & Forestry…
    Download the report
    https://www.climatebonds.net/resources/publications/bonds-climate-change-2016

    Partners include Bankers plus Thomson Reuters, Bloomberg, etc.
    Funders include Bankers plus Bloomberg Philanthropies, The Rockefeller Fund, Foreign & Commonwealth Office, etc.

    when you connect all the dots from the above, plus the Team & the Advisors, you get a mighty chunk of the CAGW scamsters.

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    pat

    3 Jul: UK Daily Mail: Richard Simpson: What planet are you on, Leo? DiCaprio flies his LA friends 6,000 miles around the world so they can listen to his speech on GLOBAL WARMING
    Leonardo DiCaprio warned about global warming in his Oscars speech
    Later this month he is holding a gala dinner for his foundation in St Tropez
    Robert DeNiro and Arnold Schwarzenegger are among those he’s invited
    Each guest flying 12,000 miles from LA will release seven tons of CO2
    The reception – the grand-sounding Leonardo DiCaprio Foundation Annual Gala To Fund Climate and Biodiversity Projects – will be held on July 20 at the Bertaud Belieu Vineyards on the French Riviera.
    Celebrities including Kate Hudson, Charlize Theron, Cate Blanchett, Marion Cotillard, Penelope Cruz, Robert De Niro, Scarlett Johansson, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Kevin Spacey are all expected to attend, along with a host of international rock and pop stars, supermodels and tycoons.
    And while a table seating 12 people at the gala costs up to £125,000, the real price will be paid by the environment…
    It is estimated DiCaprio has potentially emitted up to 418 tons of CO2 this year alone because of his globe-trotting. In contrast, the average American produces just 19 tons on flights each year…
    A source close to DiCaprio said last night that he would be flying to St Tropez on a commercial airline and not a private jet.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671903/What-planet-Leo-DiCaprio-flies-LA-friends-6-000-miles-world-listen-speech-GLOBAL-WARMING.html

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    Dennis

    I am not making a recommendation however, isn’t it clear now that Australia needs a third conservative choice for alternative government?

    The left Liberals are hand in hand with the Labor side and both are under the influence of foreigners, UN based but also from banking and business worlds.

    Australian politics has been corrupted and manipulated, the citizens are only considered if an issue is deemed to be threatening votes.

    People should read Tony Abbott’s book Battlelines. Including what conservative Liberals represent in the Menzies tradition.

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      el gordo

      A lot of voters in Australia, Britain and US have lost faith in the majors, this can only be a good thing.

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    pat

    3 Jul: AFR: Primrose Riordan: Election 2016: Recriminations begin after Greens fail to gain lower house seats
    Greens insiders are venting their frustration on NSW Greens, saying their campaign was outdated and failed to capitalise on the increasing number of inner city progressives after leader Richard Di Natale defended the party’s national results on Sunday.
    The Greens are unlikely to gain a second lower house seat and have lost South Australian senator Rob Simms in South Australia, who was seen as a rising talent…
    The Greens have gained 9.9 per cent of the primary vote with 78 per cent of the vote counted, up from 8.6 per cent in 2013 but down from 11.8 per cent in 2010. They made the greatest gains in Queensland, ACT and Victoria where they had swings of 2.5, 2.2, 2.1 per cent respectively. In NSW they had just a 0.6 per cent swing in their favour.
    “They [the NSW branch] have got to have a good hard look at themselves,” a Greens strategist said, arguing it was using outdated branding that did not look slick or professional…
    While the Greens are attributing firefighter Jim Casey’s landslide loss in the seat of Grayndler to Anthony Albanese’s hard campaigning, some in the federal branch believe the campaign was “too bolshy”.
    Recently, there has been an internal dispute at the NSW branch, which has led to a number of members resigning from key positions…
    Greens NSW Senator Lee Rhiannon defended the state’s result, saying Labor’s campaign claiming the Greens were preferencing the Coalition had had an impact on the result…
    http://www.afr.com/news/politics/election/election-2016-recriminations-begin-after-greens-fail-to-gain-lower-house-seats-20160703-gpxg7l

    looks like the ice isn’t going away soon, nor the fossil fuels:

    3 Jul: NBC: Alexey Eremenko: Russia’s Latest Nuclear-Powered Icebreaker Extends Arctic Dominance
    Russia floated its largest and most powerful nuclear-powered icebreaker last month, upping the ante in what is literally the coldest global gold rush.
    The ice-smashing ship was Russia’s sixth reactor-driven polar vessel. The United States doesn’t have a single one…
    Of Russia’s 39 icebreakers, six are powered by nuclear reactors.
    The newest vessel — the Arktika — was floated on June 16 and will make its maiden voyage next year. An unchallenged feat of icebreaker engineering, the vessel is 1 ½ football fields in length and is powered by twin nuclear reactors…
    Adm. Robert Papp, a retired Coast Guard commandant, told NBC News last year that America is “clearly behind in the Arctic.”…
    President Barack Obama has backed plans to build a new vessel worth $1 billion, but the ship would not float until at least 2020.
    Russia’s closest rival is Canada, which has seven non-nuclear ships…
    The dominance of Moscow is not surprising given the country’s vast, 25,000-mile northern seaboard…
    By comparison, the U.S. has an Arctic coastline of just 1,000 miles…
    (Canada’s coastline is technically the longest in the world — at 62,000 miles — but much of this is made up of its labyrinthine Canadian Arctic Archipelago.)
    Those disparities haven’t stymied the intense interest in the region from both Washington and Moscow since the outbreak of the Cold War…
    Why else do nations want Arctic power?
    Beyond the potential defense implications, the Arctic also could hold vast oil and gas reserves, ETC…
    (LOL)***Given the uncertain future around any windfall, the real reason the U.S. is interested in the Arctic is for global-warming research, according to Conley at the Center for Strategic and International Studies…
    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-s-latest-nuclear-powered-icebreaker-extends-arctic-dominance-n602381

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    el gordo

    Paulene Hanson is a standout.

    ‘According to her party’s agenda, that includes a royal commission into the “corruption” of climate science, adding climate change is “used as a political agenda by politicians and self interest groups or individuals for their own gain”.

    “We cannot allow scare mongering by people such as [respected scientist] Tim Flannery, who make outlandish statements and are not held accountable,” it says.

    “Climate change should not be about making money for a lot of people and giving scientists money.”

    ‘The party also wants the Renewable Energy Target scrapped and would oppose any moves towards an emissions trading scheme.’

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2016/election-2016-pauline-hansons-big-senate-win-and-what-she-plans-to-do-with-it-20160703-gpxc2n.html#ixzz4DPzY74A4
    Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

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    pat

    as there’s a new development, i’ll post some reminders about a scandal that erupted last October:

    4 Jul: MacauDailyTimes: Ng Lap Seng bribery case | New charges incriminate UNDP
    A new charge has been leveled against Macau billionaire and real estate developer, Ng Lap Seng, who is currently standing trial in New York on accusations of bribing United Nations officials.
    In addition to the bribes allegedly handed to the recently deceased former president of the UN’s General Assembly, John Ashe, Ng is now being charged with having provided benefits to one or more officials from the UN’s Development Program (UNDP) to garner their support for the construction of a conference centre in Macau…
    Last week it was reported that the former UN General Assembly president had died in a weightlifting accident when a barbell he was lifting from a bench dropped on his neck. It is being regarded as an accident according to police authorities…
    http://macaudailytimes.com.mo/ng-lap-seng-bribery-case-new-charges-incriminate-undp.html

    24 Jun: UK Daily Mail: Khaleda Rahman: Former UN General Assembly president John Ashe who was awaiting trial in $1million corruption scandal died in weightlifting accident after barbell dropped on his neck
    Prosecutors accused him of abusing post and taking $1.3million in bribes
    He was arrested last October and had been in plea talks as recently as May
    Former UN General Assembly president John Ashe who was awaiting trial in $1million corruption scandal died in weightlifting accident after barbell dropped on his neck
    Those bribes were arranged through Sheri Yan, who was the Global Sustainability Foundation’s chief executive, and Heidi Hong Piao, the non-governmental organization’s finance director, prosecutors said. Both women pleaded guilty in January…
    PHOTO CAPTION: Ashe, (left), United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon (center) and Hillary Clinton are pictured at the ‘Equality for Women is Progress for All’ event at the United Nations in New York City in March 2014
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3657528/Former-General-Assembly-president-died-weightlifting-accident.html

    more to come…

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    pat

    i posted a lot of stuff on Ashe in the following thread in Oct:

    How many things can Lord Deben get wrong?
    http://joannenova.com.au/2015/10/lord-deben-gets-it-wrong/

    & on another thread, i posted:

    interesting Australian connections with Global Sustainability Foundation’s Sheri Yan…read all:

    15 Oct: SMH: Australia-China social queen Sheri Yan arrested for bribery
    by Daniel Flitton, John Garnaut, Chris Vedelago
    Mr Ashe was elected to a one-year term as president of the General Assembly beginning in 2013, about the same time Ms Yan is accused of making monthly payments of $20,000 to him under the guise of a non-governmental organisation she headed, known as the “Global Sustainability Foundation”…
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australiachina-social-queen-sheri-yan-arrested-for-bribery-20151015-gka7pd.html

    7 Oct: Reuters: Ex-U.N. General Assembly head, five others face U.S. bribery case
    In China, Ng (Lap Seng) sits on several government committees and belongs to the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference, an advisory body to the government.
    Ng’s name previously surfaced in U.S. investigations into how foreign money might have been funneled into the Democratic National Committee before the 1996 elections, when it was working to re-elect President Bill Clinton…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-crime-macau-idUSKCN0S01CG20151007

    some websites have been suggesting Ashe’s death comes at a convenient time for the Clintons, but leftwing-biased Snopes tries to pour water on any such suggestion:

    John Ashe Murder Conspiracy
    http://www.snopes.com/un-official-john-ashe-killed-the-day-before-he-was-to-testify-against-hillary-clinton/

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    Graeme No.3

    I just thought I would warn most of you about a cheap DVD “The Planet of the Dinosaurs” durrently being sold outside Newsagents etc.
    I think it dates from about 1976 and is the last example of stop motion animation (until Grommit) where stills were shot of models, before minute changes were made and photographed. Thus a motion per second at 24 f.p.s. for 5 minutes would add up to 7200 stills, which were then shown at normal speed.

    I bought a copy a few weeks ago, and over the WE I decided to view it early one morning when I couldn’t sleep.Opening the case there were several stills, one of a blonde with big boobs in her underwear. Naturally I thought this looked promising so put it into play. Sure enough the blonde stripped to her underwear in the first 3 minutes, punged into the water and disappeared, presumably swallowed by a river monster from the ‘blood’.
    WHAT KIND OF B GRADE MOVIE DOESN’T HAVE THE SCANTILY CLAD BLONDE RUNNING AROUND FOR AT LEAST A THIRD OF THE FILM?
    Unless you are interested in viewing the mistaken ideas about dinosaurs prevalent 40 years ago** I strongly advise you to save your money.

    ** tail dragging, upright posture for theropods, T. rex attacking a Stegosaurus etc. The Triceratops was missing 2 horns as well.

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    Eric

    Do any of the buoys that measure the ocean temperature (especially off the coast of South America heading west) measure CO2? Seems to me this would be a good place to prove that warmer ocean water releases more CO2 than cooler water.

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      Eric July 5, 2016 at 1:18 am

      “Do any of the buoys that measure the ocean temperature (especially off the coast of South America heading west) measure CO2? Seems to me this would be a good place to prove that warmer ocean water releases more CO2 than cooler water.”

      Measuring in situ relative CO2 amounts is notoriously hard to do, especially in atmospheres with high relative humidity or other water. Why is there so much concern of atmospheric CO2? There is enough for vigorous plant growth or not. Measure plant growth!!

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    Greg Cavanagh

    Some new bites from a practicing Lawyer regarding climate deniers and RICO.

    http://overlawyered.com/tag/climate-deniers-to-the-wall/

    Well worth reading through the thread, and the site in general.

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