JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

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Weekend Unthreaded, 8.2 out of 10 based on 18 ratings

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92 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    ScotsmaninUtah

    Bloomberg – a dog that IS barking !

    Bloomberg , we don’t hear much about this guy (Mayor of New York) a shining example of honesty and integrity, he loves the idea of ETS, he has even gone on CNN to tell all the “skeptics” or crazies as he puts it that we need to face reality

    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/27/world/amanpour-bloomberg-hidalgo/index.html

    Meanwhile the Wall street Banks (some where in New York) are in big trouble for being very very naughty “again” ..

    https://www.rt.com/business/323535-banks-lawsuit-rates-collusion/

    and if you are thinking of trusting what Bloomberg says , think again ..

    Fraud Found in Jobs Effort; Blow to Bloomberg

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/10/nyregion/city-job-agency-accused-of-filing-false-job-claims.html?_r=0

    The Department of Investigation found that Seedco, a nonprofit organization that frequently works with the Bloomberg administration, falsely claimed to have helped at least 1,400 people — out of about 6,500 — find jobs; those people are in fact jobless or found employment on their own
    The employees at Seedco also described a culture of unrelenting pressure from the Bloomberg administration to produce data showing that the job placement effort was working :o

    apologies for the off topic post…

    [Moved to the unthreaded thread. Sorry about the delay - Jo]

    40

  • #
    KinkyKeith

    Have just read a comment on the previous post which sums up how a lot of us probably feel.

    Thanks to the author and thanks to Jo and David for providing a little hope and common sense in a very crazy world.

    http://joannenova.com.au/2015/11/new-science-21-the-mysterious-notch-in-the-sun-earth-relationship-the-dog-that-didnt-bark/#comment-1767014

    KK

    40

  • #

    Pshaw!

    Dismiss The Greens Renewable Power Plan totally out of hand as just numbers on the page, not thought out, uncosted pie in the sky, totally unable to be implemented, even were they actually in Government.

    Have a think about what the Labor party came out with yesterday, with its proposal to cut CO2 emissions by 45%.

    Forget that 60% of every watt of power being generated is required for 24 hours of every day. Forget that there’s nothing in Australia which can actually supply that level of power other than coal fired power, so if you cut back emissions by 45%, then you eat into that power, and the remainder is only being generated on a sporadic basis, so how are they going to supply that power. Forget that they want better efficiencies with respect to power consumption. EVERY efficiency they can even hope to make is fiddling around at the absolute edges, because they cannot get efficiencies on the scale required.

    Forget all that.

    Emissions come from a number of other sources as well, and electrical power generation makes up 40% of those emissions, so any cutbacks they make there only deal with a part of the overall emissions reduction plan.

    The second highest source of CO2 emissions is the Transportation Sector, which makes up 32% of the overall CO2 emissions total.

    So, if Labor is planning on a 45% cut in emissions, then that means their plan is to cut back equally on emissions from this transportation sector.

    So then, let’s look just at transportation, and here’s a breakdown on that transportation sector by percentages, and these figures are based loosely around what is reported in the US and also in the EU, and probably most already developed Countries.

    Passenger Cars – 42%
    Large Freight Trucks – 22%
    Light Trucks – 18%
    Rail – 8%
    Air Travel – 6%
    Ships and Boats – 2%
    Pipelines – 2%

    Now think about that for a minute. With a 45% reduction in CO2 emissions equally in this sector, then that’s effectively taking out half of everything in each of those named areas.

    Air travel, ships, boats and pipelines, will stay the same.

    Are they going to electrify even more of the rail system, and think of the cost involved with that.

    Electric cars to replace half of the whole passenger fleet. Not likely, and they cannot make efficiencies that will save half the emissions. The efficiencies they have made are minimal. My first car a 1969 Corolla ran up 110,000 MILES and averaged 40MPG across its life. A new Corolla doesn’t average a lifetime of that same figure, no matter how much they have improved fuel consumption.

    The same applies for light trucks. Half of them electric. Not likely. Efficiencies there, and again, they can fiddle at the edges.

    The Heavy Transport fleet, huge here in Australia. Efficiencies there. Yeah! Right! Try and imagine an electric B Double.

    It’s all well and good to say ….. “Nyah nyah nyah, we’re better than the Liberal Party!”

    Pity it’s all just talk, because there in no way on Earth they can achieve this.

    The Labor believers all nod their heads and say this is a responsible policy.

    It’s nothing but a joke really.

    It will not be achieved, even if they win every election until the target date.

    Shine a light on things like this, and the light vanishes into a black hole.

    Tony.

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    • #

      Sadly, there are still far too many who believe in this guff and enlightening them is a nigh on impossible task.

      121

      • #
        Peter C

        Sadly, there are still far too many who believe in this guff

        Maybe, or not!

        Last night the ABC broadcast a story about protest in Melbourne in favour of Climate Action in Paris. According to the ABC the majority of Australians want action on climate change. I think I counted about 30 protesters and 20 police.
        .

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    • #
      ianl8888

      It’s only the ALP showing its’ true desperation

      It has to hold its’ inner-city seats against the Greens … so it w@nks itself silly with this rubbish. These non-thought bubbles will not convince the outer suburban ring of seats (only tax gifts do that) and there is scuttlebutt ‘n rumour about a new Musl!m party being formed, so if that comes to pass the ALP will not hold those seats either

      This means Lord Waffle will be rewarded, as irritating as that is

      61

    • #
      Peter C

      Electric cars to replace half of the whole passenger fleet. Not likely, and they cannot make efficiencies that will save half the emissions.

      Is it possible to electrify cars by inductive charging (like my electric toothbrush)?

      Imagine if we laid AC cables below the road surface of major arterial roads. That might recharge the batteries of all the cars travelling on the road (might be best if they were tolled to recoup the cost).

      I am not saying it would be worthwhile. Maybe an option for when the oil runs out!

      10

      • #

        Imagine if we laid AC cables below the road surface of major arterial roads. That might recharge the batteries of all the cars travelling on the road (might be best if they were tolled to recoup the cost).

        I am not saying it would be worthwhile. Maybe an option for when the oil runs out!

        Where would the electricity comes from?

        70

        • #
          Peter C

          From the Electricity Generators at Yallourn and Moe, using our natural resource (brown coal)

          50

          • #
            toorightmate

            A friend asked me where he could get power from for his electric lawn mower.
            I told him that in Melbourne, you can get that power from your lawn.

            [Yallourn]

            50

    • #
      Richard111

      Interesting stats Tony. The UK guvmunt is committed to 80% ‘carbon’ reduction. You can imagine the mayhem when power goes on the first severe winter. Loss of food transport will result in many deaths.

      50

    • #
      Robert O

      Minister Hunt has given the go-ahead for a new windfarm near Atherton in FNQ.

      Located at Mt. Emerald, 63 x 3MW turbines for a total nameplate of 189 MW. Estimated to produce 650,000 MWh annually and provide power for 20 years to 75,000 homes. The anticipated production is 39% of nameplate which seems a little high, as for example, the Macarthur farm operates only about 26% of the time.

      No mention of any back-up power to cover the time the turbines are idle, say 75%, though there are small hydro stations at Tully, and on the Barron R. in Cairns.

      40

    • #
      toorightmate

      Tony,
      How many times do you need to be told!!!
      CO2 from vehicles is OK.
      The really nasty CO2 comes from coal fired power stations.

      For goodness sake, please learn some basic carbon chemistry so that in the future you can recognize good CO2 and nasty CO2.

      40

    • #
      lemiere jacques

      They can achive that..but what they don’t say is : we ll be poorer….

      we can breathe 45% less air than we do…it is achivable…BUT….

      00

  • #
    Peter C

    The Rise of Humanism
    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/humanisms-rise/

    I found this article by Matt Ridley gave me some hope for the future of the world, particularly given the current state of paralysis of the Western Democracies in the face of Islamic religious terrorism.

    Ridley finds that as material living standards rise, not only does the birth rate go down, but non belief increases and fairly rapidly.

    “Six of the ten largest absolute declines in fertility for a two-decade period recorded in the postwar era have occurred in Muslim-majority countries.” Iran, Oman, the United Arab Emirates, Algeria, Bangladesh, Tunisia, Libya, Albania, Qatar and Kuwait have all seen birth-rate declines of more than 60 per cent in 30 years.

    Meanwhile, secularism is on the rise within Muslim majority countries. It is not easy being a humanist in an Islamic society, even outside the Isis hell-holes, so it is hard to know how many there are. But a poll in 2012 found that 5 per cent of Saudis describe themselves as fully atheist and 19 per cent as non-believers — more than in Italy. In Lebanon the proportion is 37 per cent. Remember in many countries they are breaking the law by even thinking like this.

    It may not save Europe, but there is some hope for the world in the longer term.

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    • #
      TdeF

      Remember also that a poll in Egypt and Turkey showed 86% of the population supported capital punishment, execution for apostasy, denial of Isl*m. You can pick any religion you want, but if you pick Isl*m then you cannot change.

      So yes, any Muslim who says they are athiest is taking a risk which is unthinkable in Christian countries, public execution.

      As world leaders jet into Paris to discuss not jetting into Paris, allegedly 40,000 people marched in Melbourne against Climate Change, except I have no idea what they are talking about. There is no warming. Antarctica has record ice. The glaciers are not melting (the IPCC apologized). The seas are Alkali and can never be acid. The global temperature has not changed for 20 years. The polar bears are fine and surely someone would want it a tiny bit warmer? Canadians? Russians? Swedes? Leading this group of protesters was Green MP Adam Bandt who once said to me “Tell them what they want to hear and when we get power, we will do what we want”. Minister for the Arts and Environment Peter Garrett said pretty much the same thing publicly. Say one thing, fly to Paris.

      People wonder how scientologists can believe in Thetans. “Xenu was according to Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, the dictator of the “Galactic Confederacy” who 75 million years ago brought billions of his people to Earth in a DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes, and killed them with hydrogen bombs”
      The Green religion seems relatively tame, if Gaia will excuse the comparison.

      I guess that makes me a Xenu denier too.

      71

  • #

    I found this an interesting article about terrorism, which counters some views that it isn’t a big deal in terms of body count etc: http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2015/11/ol-mo/.

    40

    • #
      Peter C

      Thanks Bemused.

      I will quote this bit;

      Moderate and careful Western leaders have a duty to recognise the problem, call it by name and develop a plan to deal with it. If they can’t or won’t, then ordinary people will eventually elect leaders who will.

      No suitable response yet fro Maocolm

      50

    • #
      Graham Richards

      Quite correct. If you use cold hard numbers, the Paris death toll was 3/4 days murder toll in South Africa. The murder rate in South Africa runs at +- 50 per day (Government Statistics). Government decree however forbids publication of murder rates. The CIA estimates the rate much higher.
      Funny that the MSM never reports on these facts, particularly the fact that in South Africa the MSM are forbidden from reporting at all. The stench of hypocrisy gets more vile with each passing day!

      20

  • #
    el gordo

    Talcum is not very bright.

    “Man is the worst enemy of man. We can see it with terrorism,” he said, after flying in from Paris where he led ceremonies on Friday to remember the victims of the 13 November terror attacks in the city.

    “But we can say the same when it comes to climate. Human beings are destroying nature, damaging the environment.

    “It is therefore for human beings to face up to their responsibilities for the good of future generations.”

    Taylor/Guardian

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    • #
      handjive

      Yep. We’re saved.

      20

    • #
      Ross Stacey

      Human beings are certainly destroying the environment.
      The problem is that the IPCC are using a faulty argument by blaming CO2 for global warming. As many,, Jo and David, in particular have shown the CO2 argument is faulty. The whole issue has become political and a means of redistributing wealth between developed and undeveloped countries. It is time to stop. The UN was developed for a better purpose.

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      • #
        Dennis

        The UN was established to oversee the refugee problems and reconstruction of Europe after World War Three. It was hijacked by the socialists (communists no longer politically correct term) and is used for their new world order plan. The Fabian Society founded late 1800s in Great Britain agendas.

        The UN was established for a better purpose but has been allowed to expand for sinister purposes.

        One point is refugees: The UN Charter requires genuine refugees to seek asylum at the closest safe haven. Not to travel to Australia, or in most recent news EU member nations, and pass through until they settle like Locusts and feed.

        Australia should accept genuine immigrants who want to contributed to national prosperity, to assimilate into our way of life, but why are our governments appeasing people who are welfare dependent, want us to be disposed of, believe we are not entitled to our country and worship a religion that has failed to modernise?

        Of course they are not all bad people. But how do we recognise the good and the enemies?

        Our politicians are a major problem for us, the voters, the people they are elected to represent.

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      • #
        Peter C

        Human beings are certainly destroying the environment.

        Perhaps a bit harsh Ross. Certainly we human beings transform the environment, mostly for our own advantage.

        One small example; today my neighbour was pulling out weeds from her front garden. Is that environmental damage?

        60

        • #
          Ross Stacey

          I am talking in the broad sense and areas which govt.s could obstructively act. Eg. Clear felling in Amazon and Indonesia. Disposal of plastics. Cleaning up the wastes in the oceans.
          I don’t need to elaborate surely. There is much that could be done in preference to spending billions on so called CAGW. I despair that so many cant understand the difference thus like the Pied Piper follow the IPCC.

          50

          • #
            Peter C

            I see what you mean!

            There is a lot we could do to improve the environment, particularly if we were not obsessed with CO2 and Climate Change.

            Individuals have made a much larger contribution than Government in that regard. I think Clean Up Australia is a good example, but farmer landcare groups may have done even more,

            60

        • #
          toorightmate

          Were they natural weeds?
          That is the crux of whether or not we gaol her for life.

          30

      • #
        diogenese2

        “a means of redistributing wealth between developed and undeveloped countries”
        I would draw you attention to the discrepancy between what is promised and what is delivered, a very raw sore at Paris next week. This is long but worth a read, the thoughts of a very perceptive player in this game.

        http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2015/11/27/our-biggest-problem-is-poverty.html

        I can be argued that the net outcome of aid to developing nations is to inhibit development, not least by bankrupting local producers. The UN has been a prime driver of this process. Agenda 21 and its replacement Agenda 2030 lay out the
        process in detail.
        Many on the site have concerns about the UN aspiring to World Governance. I would advise a close look at the calibre of these candidates for leadership and imaging them trying to govern (i.e.) Somalia.

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      • #
        Leo Morgan

        Do you have evidence to support that claim?
        I’ve heard it made repeatedly, but every time I check the facts I find it’s not true.

        00

        • #
          Leo Morgan

          My comment was addressed to Ross Stacy, and it was responding to his claim that “Human beings are certainly destroying the environment.”
          What is a ‘destroyed’ environment? What’s your standard of judgment?
          The loss of a species is sad. though nature does it on a regular basis without anybody blaming it for destroying the environment.
          Are you perhaps talking about Whales, Polar Bears, amphibians? Or do your merely think that any change is wrong?

          20

    • #
      James Murphy

      he didn’t ‘lead’ ceremonies. He didn’t get a mention in the French press. No one cares, Turnbull (Australia) is irrelevant on the international stage.

      This is precisely why I think someone like Turnbull is dangerous to have at COP21 – he’ll agree to something outlandish just so he can get a few headlines once he realises that he is but a tiny fish in a massive pond.

      00

  • #
    handjive

    2015 97% Paris Doomsday Global Warming moron talks identify their target:

    ABC, COP21: Security steps up in Paris as confidence builds around climate change action

    “The first message I want to deliver again today: it’s a call for great vigilance from all the inhabitants of our region and a call for not using cars on Monday, because of the traffic restrictions in this area,” he said.
    . . .
    Any reference or similarity to the movie, “The Cars That Ate Paris” is purely coincidental?
    Or just bizarre.

    No-one leaves Paris. No one.

    20

  • #
    Andrew McRae

    Saw this yesterday http://catallaxyfiles.com/2015/11/27/the-emperors-recycled-clothes/
    Immediately I had a faint memory of discussion here on JoNova about a paper showing Australia had been a net sink of carbon for the last 15 years. I’ve been trying to find it and I cannot.
    Surely I didn’t imagine this. Does anyone know the whereabouts of the paper or discussion page I’m talking about?

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
    Bonus question for the geologists (to which I know the answer)… Where is this located?

    40

    • #
      Peter C

      Is it a hole for mine tailings?

      20

    • #
      KinkyKeith

      Judging by the cracked ice, I have try Iceland?

      KK

      20

    • #
      TdeF

      One of the aspects of this Carbon Dioxide fantasy is that the Greens are happy if most CO2 is generated by countries with no intention of reducing emissions. India and China and Russia have made it quite clear that they will wait until their output of CO2 naturally peaks and will then stop, perhaps. China is even presented as a Green hero and the ideal government for Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. She wants to see the end of the ballot box.

      However at home the Greens seem determined to have slightly lower CO2 in their own backyard at enormous public expense. Why? You can only conclude that in their minds, CO2 is a local problem.

      In Australia, 98% of all CO2 comes from overseas so the world should pay us for polluting our place but Malcolm and the Greens would like us to pay a tax to people overseas and that managed by Goldman Sachs on handsome fees. Charging commission on the Emperor’s new clothes. Why should Australians pay a tax at all has never been explained. As I understand it, we are paying other overseas people to reduce their emissions while we continue as normal.

      The country specific nature of these Carbon taxes have never even made sense, unless you conclude that CO2 is only a local problem in the minds of Greens. Perhaps they do not want Climate Change in Australia? Now that makes sense.

      For example, people in South Australia love their windmills and if they really run on coal power from Victoria, as was shown three weeks ago with a five hour blackout, at least they are living in their own local low CO2 world. Their climate will not change. Holden is shutting down. Now if they can just shut down Olympic Dam everyone can be paid by the government and fly to holidays overseas.

      Even if the CO2 logic was true, none of this makes any sense. It is either everyone’s problem or no ones. Or is it some sort of economic flagellation and who gets the cash? By the way, when 40,000 people march against Climate Change, what climates are changing? Is that always bad?

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      • #
        KinkyKeith

        Locally around Newcastle we have seen the Kurri Kurri Aluminum smelter closed and the Raymond Terrace plant hanging??

        Power prices MUST go up to make renewables more attractive.

        Those are the large visible plants affected by the CO2 renewables nonsense but other manufacturing suffers as well.

        Jobs being exported daily to Christina”s more deserving u n sponsored clients.

        KK

        20

    • #
      Bill Burrows

      Andrew – The source of the claim that Australia is a net sink for CO2 could have been me. I have been advancing this argument for a while. Here is some background data and info that may be of interest:

      You get a feel for the Australian continent as a net yearly CO2 sink from NASA’s OCO-2 satellite Global Visualization. See: http://geographical.co.uk/places/mapping/item/1370-watching-carbon-dioxide-from-space . This requires some interpretation of the global sequences (colour indicators) which you can cross check against the colour scaling factors (CO2 ppm) – note Australia is predominantly well below 396 ppmv. I am sure if you ask NASA nicely and persistently that they can supply you with hard numerical data. Erik Swenson obtained the raw data from NASA’s JPL and interpreted it independently – see: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/10/04/finally-visualized-oco2-satellite-data-showing-global-carbon-dioxide-concentrations/ . His visualization seems to well match the official release imagery – which only cover the last 12 months at this stage. Note the update at the end of this WUWT thread which gives a yearly overview diagram from Sept 2014 – Oct 2015. If you have difficulty interpreting the latter it might be helpful to look at maps of the world’s old growth forest areas in conjunction, as these are regions where respiration of CO2 can exceed its sequestration in vegetation. (Helps explain areas depicted as net sources such as the Congo, western Brazil and in Canada’s boreal forests, which are all lightly urbanized).

      The OCO-2 observations support results from sensors on Japan’s IBUKI satellite. You can get data for several yearly sequences by first registering at: https://data.gosat.nies.go.jp/GosatUserInterfaceGateway/guig/GuigPage/open.do . If you prefer Willis Eschenbach at WUWT has done the synthesis for you – at least for 2010. See: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/07/05/the-revenge-of-the-climate-reparations/
      [Note that the annotations on Willis's figures detailing the Top 20 net emission and net sequestration (sink) nations respectively may be confusing, because the y axes units are for gigatonnes of carbon in 2010 – not CO2. However crosschecking with other data shows the correct units are as depicted. Obviously you can convert back to CO2-e if desired].].

      The Australian visualised and calculated observations are backed up by Liu et als’ (2015) (http://web.science.unsw.edu.au/~jasone/publications/liuetal2015.pdf ) estimate of mean annual flux in above ground C stocks in the savannas of northern Australia. The latter remote sensing observations are in turn reinforced by detailed sequential ground based measurements [ ].

      People express incredulity at the fact that Australia is a net annual CO2 sink because most of the commentators they follow do not have a clue about the sheer size of this continent and the ecology of its immense woodland resources. Further, they have been brainwashed into believing that most of our woodlands and forests have been cleared since the arrival of the first Europeans. To help gain some perspective there is a greater area of grazed woodland in Qld alone than in all the current grazing, cropping and horticultural land in NSW. Most importantly, we now have concrete evidence (especially from stable carbon -13C/12C – ratio signatures in the soil beneath today’s vegetation) that shows these grazed woodlands were less dense and had a far more open canopy structure at the time livestock grazing commenced.

      The changed grazing and management regime (especially reduced fire frequency) after the introduction of domestic livestock caused a ‘switch’ in the structure and composition of the vegetation over much of the landscape. This has contributed to the increase in woody plant biomass (= increased CO2 absorption) over enormous areas leading to Australia being a net CO2 sink. Of course the atmospheric concentration of CO2 is derived from both human induced and (predominantly) natural sources; but for all practical purposes neither we nor the atmosphere can discriminate between the two.

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      • #
        Bill Burrows

        Apologies – pushed Submit before Preview! So the link after “measurements” (3rd last para – square brackets) is obtained by clicking anywhere on the last 2 paras. [Long day watching golf & cricket!]

        10

      • #
        Andrew McRae

        Jeez, blowing your own trumpet there I think. Still, good to see scientists standing behind their work – and an actual field study instead of pure computing nonsense. Nice.
        But the in-situ study on Australian woody sinking is only about northern Queensland, not all of Australia, nor even all of “northern australia”. It seems to be your assumption that the study would find similar sinking if extended to the rest of the continent. And the resulting net emission reduction is -25%, not -100%. It’s not quite enough to hang your hat on.

        The IBUKI satellite data is more indicative of the continental trend, though I do not see how they can say this is “net emissions” when all the satellite can see is the CO2 amount at a given time. The satellite cannot see which direction the CO2 is moving, that’s an interpretation/modelling result. Still it is hard to see any alternative interpretation being plausible. When Australian atmosphere is seen to have the the same pCO2 as the air above the Southern Ocean and the ocean has been measured to be a net sink, the simplest explanation (but not necessarily valid) is Australia is a net sink.
        It could still be that CO2 is coming out of Australia, being blown away, and CO2 is entering the ocean, and the concentrations at both places are the same, but that would be a rare rather than expected condition.

        So it does make a mockery of Australia’s role in the Paris-ites’ climate treaty.
        Thanks for that, Bill.

        10

        • #
          Bill Burrows

          Andrew – Sorry if you got the impression that I was “blowing my own trumpet”. It certainly was not my intention.

          Let’s recapitulate:

          1. I sourced 2 independent satellite records (Japan’s IBUKI and NASA’s OCO-2). The visualised data from both sets of sensors reveal the mean tropospheric CO2 concentration (ppmv) above the Australian continental land mass is indicative of it being a net annual CO2 sink (values for 2010 and 2014/15 respectively). [The mean CO2 concentrations are lower than the mean global atmospheric values for each sampling ‘year’].

          2. This is reinforced by Willis Eschenbach’s calculations from the downloaded IBUKI data and depicted in his net sequestration figure (see link at #8.4 above).

          3. I understand that many would have difficulty comprehending the IBUKI and OCO-2 message, because we have been told repeatedly since Kyoto that Australia is the worst per capita CO2 emitter in the world. This is despite the fact that satellite sensors integrate the atmospheric values, rather than focusing on ‘selected’ land or ocean targets {Sound familiar? cf. satellite temperature records with land based ‘guesstimates’ of temperature fluxes?}. Therefore I looked for independent data that would support the contention that our land mass was a net CO2 sink. This was confirmed by the Liu et al. (2015) paper also referenced above (#8.4).

          4. Nevertheless the Liu et al. method was based on satellite passive microwave observations. Meanwhile I know that many oldtimers have difficulty in accepting remotely sensed data (and indeed this oldtimer does too, unless the remotely sensed findings are validated by ground truthed measurement). So believe it or not I only then referenced the ground based measurements also detailed above in our Global Change Biology paper. Now I know that foresters would have similar results from State forest plots from all over Australia. But they sample only small areas on a continental scale, so we need to have confidence that the woodland sinks are present “all over’ as it were {specifically throughout the grazed woodlands}. And so for my sins {my 40+ years of measuring woody population dynamics in NSW and Qld – along with their associated carbon fluxes – monitoring which began “before the Pill”!} I included some of my own research data (obtained with colleagues of course) to back up the contention that Australia is a net sink for CO2 today.

          5. A final point – the Australian Government currently acknowledges this vegetation sink, so whether through Labor’s CFI or the Coalition’s Direct Action we can reach the objectives Malcolm is taking to Paris today, or Billy is promising to deliver in 45 years. Please note that neither of these great politicians or their bureaucratic advisers is informing you of the error of measurement associated with their various land based schemes. In brief the claimed flux (for which they are prepared to pay out(and are already paying) hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers funds in ‘Carbon Abatement Contracts’) is invariably far less than the measurement error. [For a broad perspective of sampling error using a USA source see: http://www.esajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1890/120066 ].

          All the best.

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          • #
            Andrew McRae

            Bill, sorry if my opening line got received in a manner I had not intended. I should have foreseen it could be interpreted that way in the absence of a grin or a wink. Really was not having a go at ya.

            I believe that the satellite data and the ground measurements do not tell the story separately, but combined together they give the whole picture. The ground data shows the mechanism of sequestration occurring in some areas. The satellite then shows the pCO2 levels in the sampled areas are very similar to the rest of the continent, which allows extrapolating the ground truth to the rest of the country.

            It must be maddening to know what is really going on and to be unable to stop the behemoth of international wheeling and dealing.

            Cheers.

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  • #
    Egor TheOne

    It was BS central at the True B’lvers press club on the AlpgreeensBC today with True B’lver Hunt filling the Presstitutes up with True B’lverism concerning in particular the nearing CON21 Paris Pre-Enlightenment CAGW True B’lvers Hajj .

    Could only handle listening to the first few minutes of how they intend to sign us up to the grand squandering of our tax money to a non-existent delusion that will achieve nothing but play host to the Unelected Nutters (U.N.) plus another 40,000 freeloaders , Professional Shysters and International / Multinational Con Artists !

    You would do well next month if you owned a LearJet Parking Area in Paris for all those co2 conscious Hypocrites , although that would make you one of them ….Spreaders of fear for profit and political gain !…..Our Esteemed Leaders among them .

    There will be an Army guarding these despicables from possible terrorist attacks and in fact any voices of opposition to this global lunacy ,i suspect …..skeptics kept out and treated as the enemy

    We will have Eco-terrorists being guarded from Isis terrorists , but the biggest threat comes from these pretenders in suits with pens much more so than a band of nuts with toyotas and guns !

    Both groups are extremists , both are medievalists , and both are True B’lvers .

    One group are Wolves , but the other group are Wolves masquerading as ‘our saviors’ !

    The Paris CONference >> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WrUy_tR1UVo/U4BR5E5NjZI/AAAAAAAAUOc/g3uXVFty5Jc/w426-h320/obamavoters.gif

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    Dennis

    The Waffling Wentworth W**ker discussed with The Queen “Green Finance” !!!

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    Dennis

    The Canadian Prime Minister recently elected has commented about pledging C$ billions.

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    At long last. Hip Hooray. For Joy. Yowza!

    They’ve finally solved the problem of storage for electricity, and not only is is amazingly humungously incredibly magnificent, it’s actually Carbon negative.

    I just knew it had to happen. We’re saved.

    And it’s from the plant World. Who would have thought.

    Coal fired power has shrugged it last.

    It uses the principle of photosynthesis of blue green algae.

    The experimental cell, described in a paper published in the journal Technology, is a similar design to a battery, with a gold anode, gold cathode and a proton exchange membrane, with cyanobacteria placed in the anode chamber.

    As the algae undergo photosynthesis, electrons are released and can be drawn off into an external circuit, producing an electric current that can be used immediately or stored in a battery.

    It’s even more environmentally friendly than solar PV.

    The experimental cell, almost ten centimetres square has already produced …..

    almost ONE VOLT

    Thank heavens. The Greens are celebrating this wonderful new invention in a drunken orgy of paroxysms of delight.

    Tony.

    (pick the part that might be construed as sarcasm)

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        diogenese2

        Tony, I note that they required 10 square centimetres for 1 volt. I would also note that photosynthesis only stores CO2 which returns to the atmosphere after life expires (which is pretty soon for a blue/green algae cell). Not as efficient a conversion of sunlight as even a solar panel. Oh, I forgot “crystalline silicon is a hazardous substance”.
        I hope there are warning signs on Bondi.

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        Yonniestone

        That’s another one for the volt tony.. ;)

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        toorightmate

        I’ll match your volt and raise you a milliamp.

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      Peter C

      Thank heavens. The Greens are celebrating this wonderful new invention in a drunken orgy of paroxysms of delight

      They do not seem to have noticed the irony here. Similar to the wondrous carbon negative electrocell, Photosynthesis is carbon negative and generates stored energy. The type of energy we need the most.

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        ianl8888


        Photosynthesis is carbon negative and generates stored energy

        We generally call that “stored energy” that wood and coal :)

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      Roy Hogue

      They’ve finally solved the problem of storage for electricity, and not only is is amazingly humungously incredibly magnificent, it’s actually Carbon negative.

      Since you’re so excited about it, Tony, I’ve decided to give you my share in addition to your own. Then I’ll quietly opt out. **** One volt is likely to be too dangerous for most of the population to handle. After all, most people wouldn’t recognize a volt if it walked up and kissed them. Much safer to leave it under the hood (bonnet?) where almost no one ever looks or in wires far overhead, underground or buried inside your walls where it’s been quite safe for over 100 years.

      We can’t just turn a one volt generator loose among unsuspecting people. Just imagine the trouble. ;-)

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      I can get about one volt by sticking electrodes into a potato.

      A figure of one volt is useless by itself. I want to know milliamps on short circuit. You know; like the two main parameters for solar cells; open-circuit voltage and short-circuit current.

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        Roy Hogue

        How about voltage under useful load? Wouldn’t it be good to know how far the voltage sags as you load the device, excuse me, the algae? A few nice graphs would help. Can it deliver only 1 milliamp at 1 volt or 20 milliamps? Quite a difference in usefulness.

        But of course, a green algae thingy doesn’t know anything about the subject so how can we get any specs out of it. Hoopla about how great it is is just political spin. One volt indeed. :-(

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        Roy Hogue

        How about voltage under useful load? Wouldn’t it be good to know how far the voltage sags as you load the device, excuse me, the algae? A few nice graphs would help. Can it deliver only 1 milliamp at 1 volt or 20 milliamps? Quite a difference in usefulness.

        But of course, a green algae thingy doesn’t know anything about the subject so how can we get any specs out of it. Hoopla about how great it is is just political spin. One volt indeed. Nuts! :-(

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    pat

    27 Nov: BBC: Matt McGrath: Will coal be on the dole after COP21?
    Look at India – the world’s third largest economy but only accounts for 6% of global energy use. Some 240 million people still lack access to electricity.
    The country is determined to address this, and they are going on a coal binge to do it…
    By 2020, India will be the world’s second largest producer of coal, overtaking the US. And it will be the world’s largest importer.
    They are not alone. As my colleague David Shukman has been reporting, the Philippines is set to establish 23 new coal fired plants by 2020.
    In fact 40% of the 400 gigawatts of generation capacity to be added in Southeast Asia by 2040 will be coal-fired.
    And while coal use will decline in the developed economies of the EU and the US, the whiff of sulphur will be rising in Japan, where coal’s share of the energy mix by 2030 will increase to 30%…
    Benjamin Sporton, World Coal Association: “Many countries are using coal and are going to use it for decades to come so we ought to be talking about how the outcome of Paris can support countries to use the best coal technology. And ultimately we need to be talking about carbon capture and storage (CCS) as well.”…
    (SHAME ON OXFAM) Tim Gore, Oxfam: For the many developing countries that have not yet built electricity grids, leapfrogging to renewables makes a lot more sense…
    In the UK this week the Department for Energy and Climate Change (DECC) declared that it will fully remove the £1bn available for a pioneering Carbon Capture and Storage competition scheme for power stations…
    ***There is a feeling that the reluctance to invest in the CCS might spring from a fear that if industry spends hundreds of millions on proving it works, they may not recoup that investment.
    The big markets are likely to be in China and India. And both countries will want this technology, essentially for free, as part of a global deal…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34904127

    27 Nov: IBN Live India: PTI: India going to Paris meet with progressive & proactive stance: Prakash Javadekar
    Javadekar participated in a live interactive ‘Talkathon’ on India’s stand at COP21. He, along with Power Minister Piyush Goel, answered netizens’ queries pertaining to India’s participation in the upcoming climate meet including the country’s aspirations, outcomes and partnerships…
    He said climate change needs to be addressed in a similar manner as HIV/AIDS, noting it could be achieved by selling cheap technologies to developing countries for producing clean energy.
    “To fight HIV/AIDS, world did arrive at an extraordinary solution to an extraordinary problem and they made available cheaper drugs. Is climate change not as serious as HIV/AIDS?
    ***And one solution is that the company who have done research should not go uncompensated and part of Green Climate Fund should be given to them,” he said…
    http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/india-going-to-paris-meet-with-progressive-proactive-stance-prakash-javadekar-1169577.html

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      pat

      comment with 2 associated links is in moderation.

      28 Nov: EconomicTimesIndia: Urmi A Goswami: Hope collective wisdom prevails in Paris: Prakash Javadekar
      Environment minister Prakash Javadekar says India will be positive, proactive and progressive in Paris, but it will be no pushover…
      JAVADEKAR: There is talk of some different types of goals like decarbonisation or carbon neutrality…Individual countries may have that goal, but collectively, countries cannot have that type of goal because every country is at a different development stage.
      When the developed world was at our current stage of development, they adopted a development path that was dirty. Comparatively we are walking a much cleaner path at that same stage. It can’t be forgotten that we are a developing country and our development needs cannot be forgotten…Neither science nor technology is static – it is evolving. I believe in human intent and intellect. I believe, therefore, there will be newer and newer solutions, more effective solutions…
      Q: There is the global push against use of coal, the most recent being the OECD agreement on financing for coal.
      JAVADEKAR: The OECD agreement is a regressive step. This is like sau chuhe khake billi chali haj (roughly translates to someone finding religion after a life of sin). Developed countries have used coal to the maximum. Even today they use large amounts of coal.
      I am proposing a formula to address the use of coal…
      India is proposing a new scientific formula for the use of coal. We will put it forward in the negotiations.
      http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opinion/interviews/hope-collective-wisdom-prevails-in-paris-prakash-javadekar/articleshow/49955066.cms

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    Peter C

    Active Shooter

    While the Prime Minister worries about what to do about the terrorism threat the Victorian Police are taking positive action.

    The new policy in hostage situations is called “Active Shooter”. The previous policy was for containment and negotiation. However in recent hostage dramas that has not worked very well. It seems that religious terrorism is not amenable to talking.

    Active shooter policy calls for the police to take out the terrorist at the first possible opportunity in order to save as many lives as possible.

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      clive

      Pity they didn’t do that at the”Lindt”cafe shoot out.At least they would have saved 61 rounds and maybe 2 lives.

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    Ratec

    An interesting advertisement appeared in the Weekend Australian Newspaper with the acknowledgement of The Climate Study Group. The title is “What you don’t know about the climate”
    The conclusion reads: “For greenhouse gases there has been a ‘selective scrutiny of evidence’ to support Climate Change alarm. There is no evidence CO2 has determined climate in the past or that it could do so in the future. Just as there was needless alarm over the 37 year cooling from 1940 when CO2 was rising there is now unwarranted public alarm over a threat of dangerous global warming. Australia could save the $3 billion plus spent annually supporting renewable energy programs. The heavy burden of these costs falls on taxpayers, business and households. No Australian post-2020 emissions reduction target could be justified unless emission-free energy can be produced at a cost competitive with traditional energy suppliers.”

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    have serious data for your office

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    I see Monash Professor Michael Asten has vindicated Andrew Bolt’s long term climate change stance. A bit late though Professor, Chairman Mal is off to feed the Paris-ites already.

    […] Rather than being panicked by the WMO press release, Malcolm Turnbull and Greg Hunt and their opposite numbers represented in Paris would serve us well by pausing their deliberations until science delivers a global temperature model consistent with measurement.
    I think Dr Evans has your answer Professor!

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    Andrew

    Jo, that fuel saving in the 2015 Commodore comes primarily from them introducing the option of a mini V6 (3.0L)
    The Prius is as old as the climate pause, both launching in 1997. It’s an excellent vehicle for CBD taxi use as they are scrapped before the battery is out of warranty. So they sell a few. A bit over 100 a month, or a bit over 1% of cars sold. Perhaps 2% of all cars are petrol-electric (like a 1940 locomotive) and let’s call it 0.00% are EVs only. Coincidentally, the probability of taxis being plug-in EVs by 2030.

    I calculated that for the world to go renewable with enough Tesla batteries to cover outages would cost $100tr not including the actual generators – thereby roughly doubling public sector debt and requiring replacement every 5-10 years. Not an easy task when it would take 285 years of global Lithium production just to do the job in Australia, and 100x that globally.

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      Graeme No.3

      Leaving aside the question of durability, I note that about 25% of the input electricity is lost. Over 10 years then (if you’re very lucky) you may get a payback of 21% of your outlay. (For the benefit of arithmetically challenged trolls that means for every 5 dollars you spend on a Powerpack you piss away 4 of them. And at the end of the battery life you start again).

      Why not send me the money, in return I will send you plans for a CARBON NEGATIVE blue-green algae photovoltaic cell – as featured on the ABC – which will make you the lowest emitting person in your inner city ( not applicable to methane ).

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    Roy Hogue

    If you have not seen it already — the UN has announced that Maurice Strong has died at the age of 86. No date was given but I assume today.

    They heaped a few accolades on his memory that I could never say.

    I do not rejoice at the death of anyone, not even someone so intimately involved in causing so much worldwide trouble. I can allow myself to hope he quickly becomes forgotten however.

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      Yonniestone

      Your being too kind Roy, which says a lot about good men versus evil men and their actions towards other people throughout their lives, Strong should be remembered in the vein of destructive men in history that are not satisfied with great power but absolute, such examples were spelt out by the US founding fathers but over time these warnings were forgotten as relics that didn’t apply to current times.

      And so the cycle continues.

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        Roy Hogue

        Yonni,

        It’s not kindness to Maurice Strong, who as you point out, was responsible for a lot of destruction and suffering. I can easily hope both he and what he stood for are forever forgotten, lost in history’s dustbin with all those who wilfully did the wrong thing.

        It’s kindness to my moral standard that says even if you have to kill someone in self defence, do not rejoice in his death.

        If that’s so unusual as to be remarkable then we are indeed in trouble. Very bad trouble.

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    toorightmate

    The ABC tells the world that 500 people braved hot and humid weather in Brisbane to protest that more needs to be done to avert climate change.

    If ABC checks its facts, it will find:
    200 people
    29 degrees
    58% RH

    But who’s going to check facts on anything to do with climate scaremongering?

    They would have been on a safer bet by having a nice day out at the races.

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    Interesting presentation by Nils-Axel (‘Niklas’) Mörner (via Tallbloke)

    Anthroprogenic Global Warming
    is a weird idea
    only based on models


    In total disagreement with
    observational facts and physical laws

    Refers to a recent paper published in Natural Science

    Abstract
    By about 2030-2040, the Sun will experience a new grand solar minimum. This is evident from multiple studies of quite different characteristics: the phasing of sunspot cycles, the cyclic observations of North Atlantic behaviour over the past millennium, the cyclic pattern of cosmogenic radionuclides in natural terrestrial archives, the motions of the Sun with respect to the centre of mass, the planetary spin-orbit coupling, the planetary conjunction history and the general planetary-solar-terrestrial interaction. During the previous grand solar minima — i.e. the Spörer Minimum (ca 1440-1460), the Maunder Minimum (ca 1687-1703) and the Dalton Minimum (ca 1809-1821) — the climatic conditions deteriorated into Little Ice Age periods.

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    Barry

    An interesting commentary on the Chevron – Ecuador legal wrangle.

    Just once I would like to browse the web and see an article on a matter where the Left haven’t won:

    Anyone who emits carbon will pay, Alberta says as it releases tough climate change policies

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    Victor Ramirez

    Could Jo or David please confirm Cool Futures Funds Management is real? Reason I ask is that I have not seen any commentary or links from either this blog or Sciencespeak.com.

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    tom0mason

    O.T.

    As the IPCC Paris circus approaches, Maurice Strong, one of the initiators of fear-mongering the masses has passed away. He has died.
    Inventor of scamming people and conning politician through the smoke and mirror argument of ‘sustainability’, he spawn a whole useless industry of worthless ‘sustainability’ products.

    Christiana Figueres, the current head of the U.N. climate agency, tweeted Saturday that “we thank Maurice Strong for his visionary impetus to our understanding of sustainability. We will miss you.” I find it hard to fault this comment from a communist whose relevance to the modern world has long passed.

    Not to be out done and displaying how easily duped politician are, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who will be attending the climate summit in Paris, said in a statement that “Mr. Strong was an internationally recognized environmentalist and philanthropist who used his remarkable business acumen, organizational skills, and humanity to make the world a better place.”

    So good-bye Maurice, may the world yet recover from your efforts.

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    James Murphy

    forgive me if it has been posted elsewhere…
    Climate protestors clash with police

    “…We spoke with several angry protesters who told me they wanted to destroy society altogether, they wanted to get their message across and this is what they are trying to do now…”

    Also, a bit of slightly negative press about Obama and his 45 car motorcade, and the fact that each armoured car uses 63L/100Km

    My office has conceded defeat, and told everyone they can work from home if they want to, due to security, and traffic problems associated with COP21

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    Chris Hagan

    Maurice Strong the initial author of the whole scam is dead on the eve of the summit. As he has been advising the Chinese on this matter, will this lead to a change in the chinese stance on limiting CO2 emissions which will prevent the chinese public from benefitting as the west hase done?

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    ianl8888

    The public do not matter, irrespective of any opinions it may hold

    This is a good example of why I despise Lord Waffle and his destructive, sociopathic narcissism:

    http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2015/11/gillians-friend-malcolm/

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    Bruce of Newcastle

    The annual Mission Australia youth survey is out.

    Young Australians worried about alcohol, drugs, getting a job, body image: Mission Australia survey

    This is all well and good until you work out what isn’t mentioned: there is no mention at all of climate change or global warming at all.

    I thought that was interesting so I went and found the report, which can be downloaded from this website.

    And it is true. There isn’t a single mention of ‘climate’ or ‘warming’ in the whole 153 page report.

    The only category which is in that area is “The environment”. And that number would give the warmies some pause. Here is an extract of the main tabulated survey results:

    Young people were asked to write down the three issues they considered were most important in Australia today. The information provided by respondents was categorised and is listed in order of frequency in Table 1.6.

    Table 1.6: Most important issues in Australia today [% nationwide]

    Alcohol and drugs…27.0
    Equity and discrimination…25.0
    The economy and financial matters…18.9
    Politics…16.1
    Population issues…15.3
    Mental health…14.9
    International relations…13.4
    LGBT issues…13.2
    The environment…12.8
    Employment…12.7
    Education…12.2
    Crime, safety and violence…10.1
    Health…9.5
    Bullying…9.3
    Homelessness/housing…7.8

    So the young people were asked to list the three issues most important to them and only 12.8% included the environment?

    Wow. This global warming scam is a dead parrot.

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    Abe

    Sit yourself down and step yourself through the description of the earth without an atmosphere

    and then with one
    the way you would teach the steps to a 10 year old.

    First there is the sphere of the globe rotating in vacuum illuminated by a light, surface covered with energy sensors.

    How many modes of energy gain are there? 1
    What is it named? Radiant energy gain.

    How many modes of energy loss are there? 1
    What is it named? Radiant energy loss.

    Suspension of an atmospheric envelope around the sphere creates first a loss of sunlight to the surface of the sphere.
    This reduction of energy to the surface is cooling. The name of this mode of cooling, created by existence of the atmosphere,
    is diffraction.

    When steady state energy transactions resume the envelope is COLDER than the surface. Energy migration creates COOLING of the surface, in a mode named conduction. All atmospheric gases are involved in COOLING through conduction.

    Modes of energy to the surface are 1: radiant.
    Modes of energy from the surface are 3: radiant, plus two created by the existence of the atmosphere.

    The first of these is created by the green house gases which deflect 20% energy from the sun to space never to see a sensor.

    What would happen if the amount of gases that deflected 20% energy in were increased to created deflection of 21% from earth?

    The final mode of cooling
    created by the atmosphere
    is the phase change refrigeration by the main species of greenhouse gas water. It changes phase taking energy from the surface, dumps it and changes phase again to become solid,
    and returns to the surface faster than if it had remained gas.
    Hence another mode of COOLING is CREATED, convection.

    Convection cooling apart from simple conduction cooling is solely a function of the energy handling characteristics of water.

    Modes of heating the surface of the globe remain 1: radiant.

    Modes of cooling the surface of the globe are 4 in number: radiant, and 3 modes created by existence of the atmosphere.

    2 of the 3 modes of cooling created by the atmosphere
    are created by the characteristic energy handling of the so-called green house gases.

    There is no mode of warming created by immersion
    of any sensor
    into a cold gas bath this fact is enforced three cooling modes deep
    in the case of one which is simultaneously shading/scrubbing/refrigerating a sensor immersed within it.

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