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International bullying, unfair “targeted” punishment suggested by The Royal Society over climate change

How low is too low? Do we want to live in a world where groups of countries gang up on non-compliant countries by randomly picking a target nation, and punishing it until it gives in?  Perhaps you’d prefer a world where voters or evidence matter and where our leaders persuade each other with rational argument? Me too.

“Divide and conquer” is as old as witchdoctors

Warwick University and the Royal Society published game theory “research” which argues that it might be useful to (unethically) single out a few countries randomly that are not performing “up to climate expectations”. The researchers admit that the whole approach depends on the players being irrational.

“In the mathematical model,” said Dr Johnson, “the mechanism works best if the players are somewhat irrational. It seems a reasonable assumption that this might apply to the international community.”

No matter how they dress it up, it’s just bullying by one bunch of countries to pick on one single other one until it acquiesces. Then the next wave begins with different targets, gradually picking off one state at a time. It fails if the non-compliant states get coordinated and treat any unfair attack on one member as as attack on them all. But it could succeed if the non-compliant states don’t get networked and all keep their heads low and hope the bullies pick on someone else.

That’s why right now, before Paris, skeptics need to be getting networked internationally, and this tactic needs to be exposed for the dangerous profoundly anti-democratic  game that it is.

Why should voters in one country be forced to act against their wishes because of decisions made by a bunch of bureaucrats in the EU? Let the activists speak and persuade the voters. We all know that those who can’t explain their case with reason resort to bullying instead.

Skeptics need to get the message out to their ministers who are going to Paris.

The Paris-ites will stop at nothing. They are networking and preparing right now.

Targeted punishments could provide a path to international climate change cooperation, new research in game theory has found.

Conducted at the University of Warwick, the research suggests that in situations such as climate change, where everyone would be better off if everyone cooperated but it may not be individually advantageous to do so, the use of a strategy called ‘targeted punishment’ could help shift society towards global cooperation.

Despite the name, the ‘targeted punishment’ mechanism can apply to positive or negative incentives. The research argues that the key factor is that these incentives are not necessarily applied to everyone who may seem to deserve them. Rather, rules should be devised according to which only a small number of players are considered responsible at any one time.

The study’s author Dr Samuel Johnson, from the University of Warwick’s Mathematics Institute, explains: “It is well known that some form of punishment, or positive incentives, can help maintain cooperation in situations where almost everyone is already cooperating, such as in a country with very little crime. But when there are only a few people cooperating and many more not doing so punishment can be too dilute to have any effect. In this regard, the international community is a bit like a failed state.”

The paper, published in Royal Society Open Science, shows that in situations of entrenched defection (non-cooperation), there exist strategies of ‘targeted punishment’ available to would-be punishers which can allow them to move a community towards global cooperation.

“The idea,” said Dr Johnson, “is not to punish everyone who is defecting, but rather to devise a rule whereby only a small number of defectors are considered at fault at any one time. For example, if you want to get a group of people to cooperate on something, you might arrange them on an imaginary line and declare that a person is liable to be punished if and only if the person to their left is cooperating while they are not. This way, those people considered at fault will find themselves under a lot more pressure than if responsibility were distributed, and cooperation can build up gradually as each person decides to fall in line when the spotlight reaches them.”

For the case of climate change, the paper suggests that countries should be divided into groups, and these groups placed in some order — ideally, according roughly to their natural tendencies to cooperate. Governments would make commitments (to reduce emissions or leave fossil fuels in the ground, for instance) conditional on the performance of the group before them. This way, any combination of sanctions and positive incentives that other countries might be willing to impose would have a much greater effect.

“In the mathematical model,” said Dr Johnson, “the mechanism works best if the players are somewhat irrational. It seems a reasonable assumption that this might apply to the international community.”


 Press Release   University of Warwick.


REFERENCE:

  1. Samuel Johnson. Escaping the Tragedy of the Commons through Targeted Punishment. Royal Society Open Science, 2015 [link]
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189 comments to International bullying, unfair “targeted” punishment suggested by The Royal Society over climate change

  • #

    The defining word is ‘irrational’. That is the story behind the entire ‘climate change/global warming’ theatre, where the actors play the part to perfection.

    531

    • #

      So are you saying that the researchers from Warwick used “irrational” because they were under the influence of some sort of in group pressure. I’ll have to look at the paper to see how they managed to use the word in the context of international policy while being under such an influence.

      334

    • #
      Bulldust

      Another defining word is “model.” In real life people cheat. Carbon accounting is less transparent than Enron’s books as we have seen oon mulitple occasions. So on the surface countries might comply, but hidden from view they cheat their pants off for their own benefit.

      In totally unrealted news, I see those dams that would never fill are overflowing again:

      http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/warragamba-dam-disaster-warning-downpour-now-could-devastate-western-sydney-20150827-gj8wif.html

      391

      • #

        “If the same inflow of water happened now … with the dams already full, western Sydney would be devastated. Penrith would be flooded, right down the Hawkesbury River … Essentially from Penrith all the way down to Richmond you would have major flooding going on.”

        I understand that a renowned climatologist, one that has long worried about the dams not filling, has a rather salubrious home on the banks of the Hawkesbury River. There’s some potential for irony here.

        461

        • #
          johnonomous

          Flannery might well have sold this house. The quote below is from the SMH after the privately run The Climate Council was set up

          The Climate Council has an office in Sydney, but Flannery works from home in Melbourne. He recently moved to Victoria to live with his partner, Kate Holder, a former heroin addict and sex worker who became an Age columnist and an accomplished, poetic memoirist. Their son, Colby, is four months old.

          70

          • #

            …a former heroin addict and sex worker who became an Age columnist and an accomplished, poetic memoirist…

            OK, I know what the first three are and some might suggest that they are kindred spirits, but the last one completely failed a Google search.

            70

          • #
            RB

            I could never go out with a former Age columnist. What would my parents say?

            70

      • #
        AndyG55

        If you look at Google Earth you can see the massive new fuse plug and spillway constructed after the Dapto floods.

        If that rain had hit in the catchment area, Warragamba would most probably have been overtopped.

        Now that would have made a mess !!!

        160

      • #
        Peter Carabot

        It was rather funny seeing “The Professor” talking about climate change with the floods in the background. Some people have no shame……

        301

      • #
        James Murphy

        I reckon we all misheard Tim, and instead of saying that the dams would ‘never fill’, he said that the dams would ‘over fill’.

        we live in strange and disturbing times, so who knows how long before this becomes the official story…

        261

        • #
          el gordo

          SALLY SARA: What will it mean for Australian farmers if the predictions of climate change are correct and little is done to stop it? What will that mean for a farmer?

          PROFESSOR TIM FLANNERY: We’re already seeing the initial impacts and they include a decline in the winter rainfall zone across southern Australia, which is clearly an impact of climate change, but also a decrease in run-off. Although we’re getting say a 20 per cent decrease in rainfall in some areas of Australia, that’s translating to a 60 per cent decrease in the run-off into the dams and rivers. That’s because the soil is warmer because of global warming and the plants are under more stress and therefore using more moisture. So even the rain that falls isn’t actually going to fill our dams and our river systems, and that’s a real worry for the people in the bush. If that trend continues then I think we’re going to have serious problems, particularly for irrigation.

          http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s1844398.htm

          270

          • #
            handjive

            Flannery - May 15, 2012, Daily Telegraph: Slippery when wet – Tim Flannery’s climate warnings questioned after recent flooding

            “FIVE years ago, Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery predicted that the nation’s dams would never be full again and major Australian cities would need desalination plants to cater for our water needs.

            Yesterday, in his latest report, he said “climate change cannot be ruled out” as a factor in recent flooding rains, which led to some of those dams overflowing.

            The apparent contradiction accompanies predictions that heatwaves, made worse by concrete, asphalt and buildings, will cause deaths and violence in western Sydney.

            321

            • #
              mikerestin

              Don’t forget racism.

              80

            • #
              Manfred

              The apparent contradiction…”

              Let’s face it, there’s nothing ‘apparent’ about it.
              I’d swap ‘apparent’ for ‘consistent’ as in,
              ‘consistent contradiction’.

              People lacking insight are frankly a danger to others and to society in general.

              90

          • #

            I thought with a ‘Super El Nino’ in progress, Australia was going to be in dire need of rain. This time, the rain continues, and farmers are celebrating their good fortune and have high hopes for this year’s crop. Even WA, with lower than average rainfall, crops are doing well. If this is ‘climate change’, lets have a lot more of it!

            130

            • #
              Stupendus

              The BOM have just given the spring outlook, more rain and a 50 50 chance of less rain ???seems that they are ignoring their El Nionio predictions of last month and are having a bob each way with the spring prediction because THEY DONT KNOW !!

              140

              • #

                Indeed! Some time around the beginning of this month (I can’t find the article), the BOM announced with absolute certainty that a severe dry period was going to hit us in one week, but no later than two weeks. Instead, we get the Al Gore Effect.

                110

      • #
        AndyG55

        Flim-Flam was just making it up anyway.

        He has absolutely ZERO scientific evidence to back his claims.

        Just like basically everything to do with the AGW farce.

        421

    • #
      Leonard Lane

      When I see posts such as this one, I always want to say “you first.” Let the EU start bullying Russia in the middle of winter and see what happens to the flow in the gas pipelines from Russia.
      Let the EU start bullying China and India and see what happens.
      It is always easy to pick a weak person or country before you try to bully them.
      A bully never change they are always cowards.

      260

      • #
        Stupendus

        They wont be starting with Russia, or china or India, you can bet it will be Australia or Canada to be the first “spinner” to come in and play the game

        130

    • #
    • #
      clive

      UN Climate change negotiator Christiana Figueres speaking in Melbourne in May,said they would use measures to bring dissenting countries to her way of thinking at the “Paris Love In”in December.I sent an Email to my member(Warren Truss)outlining what the UN have planed for this”Meeting”and he says the Gov’t have checks and balances in place,but after the last meeting that Julie Bishop was at,I have “Grave Misgivings”as to how she will perform(she gave $200 million of our “Borrowed Money Away”)I don’t trust her at all.

      140

      • #
        Manfred

        How to win a war: Confuse and lie to your opponent
        Adam Curtis

        ‘Trust’ is not a word in the vocabulary used when considering politicians or policies. After all, politics has been described as the art of lying.

        “It’s a strategy of power that keeps any opposition constantly confused, a ceaseless shape-shifting that is unstoppable because its indefinable,”

        100

        • #
          Manfred

          …And it means that we as individuals become ever more powerless, unable to challenge anything because we live in a state of confusion and uncertainty. To which the response is ‘Oh Dear’. But that’s what they want you to say.
          Adam Curtis

          Adam Curtis manages to accurately point the bone at the anticipated array of ducks in the line up, politicians, banks, quantitative easing, ISIS et al. The single glaring omission, an understandable one given his long attachment to Auntie (the BBC), was his inability to apply the same analysis to climate politics and UN governance, and the glaring, culpable and astonishing criminal waste of trillions on dollars that would be better spent improving the human condition rather than in the enslaving of the future.

          Never say ‘Oh dear’. There is always a cogent response.

          90

        • #
          ghl

          Interesting article Manfred, but verbose.
          To sum it up, bullsh*t baffles brains.

          40

          • #
            Manfred

            True. I thought it began in a promising manner and then drifted somewhat. I liked the theme but noted the obvious omission, and then exploring the background of the writer understood why.

            10

      • #
        Stupendus

        LOL I read that as un-climate change, very fitting really

        30

      • #
        Alice Thermopolis

        Clive

        As I understand it, Minister Bishop did not give $200m to UN. The money was already part of foreign aid budget. It was merely ‘re-badged’ to be used for weather-related disaster relief – and to get a seat on UN Green Climate Fund to ensure spending it would be at Australian government’s discretion – not the Fund.

        Alice

        40

  • #
    Paul in Sweden

    “The Paris-ites will stop at nothing.”
    Jo, I really like that one. -Paul

    391

  • #
    Kevin Lohse

    The Paris-ites are already managing expectations. A Guardian article, (where else?) contains the following gem by Naomi Klein (Who else?)

    “One part I find particularly shocking is that Australia is very much on the frontline of climate change. In Canada, most people don’t experience the extreme weather, but in Australia it is severe…

    It’s not just about things getting hotter, it’s about things getting a lot meaner. You see that in Australia where the treatment of migrants is a profound moral crisis. It’s clear that as sea levels rise that this mean streak and open racism is going to become more extreme – climate change is an accelerant to all those other issues.”

    So Climate Change causes immigration policies, another one to add to the ever-growing list.
    H/T WUWT

    For those with strong stomachs. :http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/aug/27/naomi-klein-on-climate-change-i-thought-it-best-to-write-about-my-own-raw-terror

    431

    • #
      Bulldust

      You remind me of this classic:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkDvqQKGgDA

      Seriously? No extreme weather in Canadia? They have had temperatures extremes with more than 100C range:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_extremes_in_Canada

      Let’s not even talk about the rainfall…

      301

      • #
        Paul in Sweden

        Oh boy… Living in Sweden but still owning property in America and when back in the USA I would often opt to drive instead of flying. This would mean driving 10-16 hours non-stop from NYC or Vermont to west of Toronto and north to the outskirts of Calgary. Canada from what I saw on several occasions was hit wit severe ice storms.

        It looked to me like the hand of God pressed all of the trees, collapsed many roofs and then blew a frost of thick ice from his chest. From what I remember the paper white Birch trees may have suffered the most but I cannot say as each of those storms were so significant that I cannot trust my dazed and astonished memory.

        In all that my Canadian colleagues were of the attitude that we have storms, we dig out, we rebuild and nothing really to see here, we move on.

        340

        • #
          Canadian

          Exactly. We call it normal weather.

          200

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          I have only been to Canada once, to attend a course, and that was a long time ago. An enduring memory for me, was noticing that a lot of houses had a second front door – on the roof.

          When I asked the instructor about the roof-top doors, his reply was, that it was easier than digging out the snow in front of the house.

          I have had a lot of respect for Canadians, ever since. I think they are dumb for living where they do, but they get my respect.

          90

    • #
      Lawrie Ayres

      Copenhagen was spoilt by Climategate and the GFC. Paris may not have another Climategate but it will be held in the midst of immigration and assimilation problems across Europe, the collapse of several European economies including Greece, Italy and Spain but most of all by the collapse of China and extreme indebtedness throughout the West. It does seem each “last chance for the planet” attracts not only the Gore effect but financial difficulties. What countries really want to incur further debt to make some useless gesture to pacify an increasingly corrupt but irrelevant UN. Let us accept that the current debt crisis may be a hidden blessing.

      It is probably off topic but I just wanted to give a positive spin to all the doom and gloom. I ardently hope there will be much gloom among the alarmists come December 2015.

      440

      • #
        David

        And I Keep hoping for a release of parisgate emails

        191

        • #
          Andrew McRae

          As the result of Edward Snowden’s leaks a whole lot more people have heard of ways of communicating anonymously. Among many methods is the TAILS distribution of GNU/Linux, which is preconfigured with several anonymous (or secret authenticated) communications applications. They still require some complexity in the initial key setup and fastidiousness in ongoing operation, but from the videos I’ve seen the tools are getting easier to use for non-professionals. (I’ve never used it.)
          Only three main obstacles remain to prevent the Team from co-ordinating secretly:
          * Can anyone in the circle ever defect and release the communications in a nonrepudiatable manner.
          * Can their own corporate/educational institution network security allow opaque tunnels from inside the office to collaborators on the outside, or do they have to go out to 4G/WiFi on the street to do it.
          * Can [Phil Jones] figure out how to use it when he couldn’t figure out how to chart data in Excel?

          The cast of characters may have learned lessons from CG1 that will make a sequel unlikely.

          [edit as requested] ED

          110

          • #
            ROM

            Phil Jones head of UK’s CRU [ Climate Research Unit ] was the one who didn’t know how to use Excel nor apparently did some others present at CRU at the time judging by Jone’s comment.

            The full e-mail where this quote is taken from ; Bishop Hill; Nov 2011

            I would have thought that this writer would have know better! I keep on seeing people saying this same stupid thing.
            I’m not adept enough (totally inept) with excel to do this now as no-one who knows how to is here.

            170

            • #
              Andrew McRae

              Yep, sorry, I hastily tried to remember who it was and didn’t check. My apologies to Dr K.T.
              Of course if anyone would remember it would be ROM.

              moderators, if you’re feeling generous please change this part:
              Kevin Trenberth
              to this:
              Phil Jones

              [done] ED

              80

              • #
                ROM

                Andrew @ #3.2.1.1.1

                Regretfully I am firmly informed I am frequently wrong according to my family, both siblings and my kids.

                Does wonders in keeping one’s ego down to a moderate level of humility.

                70

        • #
          Paul in Sweden

          Things have gotten so silly that only the bankers and the worshipers of the Church of Global Warming under the auspice of the Pope in Rome can believe what is excreted by the Global Warming activists.

          Nothing else can be revealed that could possibly lower the stature of the 97% of the phrenologists or climastrologists.

          160

      • #
        gai

        Actually it was spoilt by the Chinese who gave Obama the cold shoulder and the leak of the Danish Text which handed control of the CO2 finances to the much hated World Bank.

        Why do you think Obama went and made a deal with the Chinese before hand? They do not want the Chinese trashing this conference like they did Nopenhagen.

        160

      • #
        Manfred

        Let us accept that the current debt crisis may be a hidden blessing.

        Let’s see. The current European economic crisis, global debt crisis, Middle east refugee crisis, oil price crisis, Syrian crisis, ISIS crisis, Ukrainian crisis, global population crisis, to name just a few crises and presumably some that have sadly yet to arise before December.

        Bring on those ‘hidden blessings’ and let them provide their macabre counterpoint to the snail garnished irrelevance of the climate Paris-ites with their three MSM pet monkies, see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

        30

    • #
      OriginalSteve

      This Klein woman makes zero sense by her own words – if climate change is world wide and “threatening *all* mankind”, all countries should logically experience extreme weather. However, she has said its not the case….

      Seriously, I shake my head at these intellectual feather weights.

      Will the adults please take charge….

      200

    • #
      Canadian

      As always, Klein still gets it wrong. Canada has always had extremes of weather, warming or not is beside the point. We have deserts, prairies, coastal rain forests, arctic tundra and more besides. We get droughts, floods, snow & ice storms, hurricaines, tornadoes, as well as pleasant weather. Time to put those fools back into the asylum.

      180

    • #
      John in Oz

      It is typical that the alarmists conflate refugees (political, economic or other) with people attempting to move away from an area due to unlivable climate change.

      50

  • #
    HAS

    Forgive him, he’s just young and hasn’t worked out yet that the rewards for co=operation are low and very uncertain, and unlikely to dealt to by the odd attempt at selective punishment.

    80

  • #
    Andrew McRae

    [...]“the international community is a bit like a failed state.”

    Oh, so we’re already a single world state, we just have to fix it up a bit? Stop moving my Overton Window, I liked it exactly where it was.

    arrange them on an imaginary line and declare that a person is liable to be punished if and only if the person to their left is cooperating while they are not.

    What a surprise that, by design, the person who is furthest to the Left has no personal accountability, and conformity spreads from left to right.

    But it does not say whether the person deciding this rule and delivering the punishment is someone also in the line or is some other entity outside the line and above the rules. He says the strategy is “available to would-be punishers”, plural, which may mean the former. But a police department is a singular abstraction manifested by multiple members of the public (who become police while on duty) so the use of the plural still doesn’t tell us if the “would-be punishers” are members of the line or employees of a supra-national power.

    “the mechanism works best if the players are somewhat irrational. It seems a reasonable assumption that this might apply to the international community.”

    Okay, update to plan: Allegedly we’re already a single world state governed by a line of irrational ideologues.
    This just keeps getting better doesn’t it. (I’m hoping one of these characters is called Mad Max or we’re all doomed.)

    the use of a strategy called ‘targeted punishment’ could help shift society towards global cooperation.

    That’s the same strategy that teachers used to get a class of children under control. Just pick any one of the bunch and give them a blast. It’s then obvious to the other non-conformers that berating the lone individual was used as a warning.

    Quote from the paper:

    Even the most despotic tyrants cannot personally punish all dissenters. But if they can exert power over a small group of underlings, who in turn manage their subordinates, and so on down a hierarchical pyramid, top-down control can occur.
    Similarly, most of us are subject to the judging gazes of only our immediate friends and neighbours, yet this can be enough to ensure conform ity to various social conventions.

    Is this guy actually creating a management plan for an evil overlord? Will it cost… one… trilllllion dollars? And does that mean the APEC group or Trans-Pacific Partnership treaty has already got CO2 emissions reductions clauses in it, as that would be our “nearest neighbours”?
    Still at least he’s admitting this whole game theory is about a “social convention” and not an objective tangible problem.

    Quote from the paper:

    Finally, even the biggest polluters would run out of excuses once a majority of other groups were cooperating.

    New update to plan: Allegedly we’re already a single world state governed by a line of irrational condescending matron figures who interpret all reasoning as excuses.

    As Alice once said: “I don’t like it here, there’s far too much beheading going on.”

    270

    • #
      gai

      Even the most despotic tyrants cannot personally punish all dissenters. But if they can exert power over a small group of underlings, who in turn manage their subordinates, and so on down a hierarchical pyramid, top-down control can occur.

      This method is as old as the hills and one they are frightened of mentioning when talking of tyrants. Don’t want to scare the Sheeple now do we?

      The Tenth Man – A Brief History of Decimation

      Decimation – Murder by Tens

      While the term today is generally equated with a massive defeat, the Latin word decimation actually means “the removal of a tenth”.

      In the age of the Roman legions, army units that mutinied, fled in the face of the enemy or under-performed in combat could be singled out for group punishment in the form of decimation.

      Under such a sentence, a body of troops would be divided into sections of 10 men. One soldier from each group would be chosen at random, usually through a lottery. The unlucky infantryman would then to be beaten to death by his comrades. The sentences were carried out immediately regardless of the victim’s rank, reputation or even involvement in the transgression in question. The fatal blows were typically with clubs — a practice the Romans called fustuarium….

      After a sentence of decimation was carried out, the surviving soldiers in the disgraced cohort would be forced to make camp away from the larger army. The reduced unit would have to subsist for several days on raw barley. It didn’t just taste terrible, but was also very hard on the stomach and intestines….

      Later Examples

      The practice of decimation didn’t die with the Roman Empire. Military commanders throughout history have revived the tradition from time to time as a means of punishment.

      Rokycany in present day Czech Republic was where 90 randomly chosen cavalrymen were put to death in 1642 by Austria’s Archduke Leopold Wilhelm. The punishment was ordered following the alleged cowardice of a 900-man regiment of horse at the disastrous Battle of Leipzig. During the decisive clash, which saw 10,000 soldiers of the Holy Roman Empire butchered by a much smaller Swedish army, members of the disgraced outfit broke and ran precipitating a general route among the German troops. Some accounts say that the condemned were chosen to die by the roll of dice and were then either hanged from trees or decapitated before their comrades’ eyes. Today, a monument in Rokycany commemorates the slaughter.

      Like its First World War Italian allies, France is also known to have ordered decimation for regiments that mutinied, fled or refused to fight. In fact, at the time of the war’s outbreak in 1914, the practice was even codified in French military regulations as a legitimate form of punishment….

      [snip. Not the right context. check your email - Jo]

      81

      • #
        PiperPaul

        “They started with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, they hung a banana on a string with a set of stairs placed under it. Before long, a monkey went to the stairs and started to climb towards the banana. As soon as he started up the stairs, the psychologists sprayed all of the other monkeys with ice cold water. After a while, another monkey made an attempt to obtain the banana. As soon as his foot touched the stairs, all of the other monkeys were sprayed with ice cold water. It’s wasn’t long before all of the other monkeys would physically prevent any monkey from climbing the stairs. Now, the psychologists shut off the cold water, removed one monkey from the cage and replaced it with a new one. The new monkey saw the banana and started to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attacked him. After another attempt and attack, he discovered that if he tried to climb the stairs, he would be assaulted. Next they removed another of the original five monkeys and replaced it with a new one. The newcomer went to the stairs and was attacked. The previous newcomer took part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, they replaced a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey tried to climb the stairs, he was attacked. The monkeys had no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they were beating any monkey that tried. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys had ever been sprayed with cold water.”

        50

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          I have heard that story before. But the question that is never answered, is what happened to the human who tried to dismantle the experiment by removing the banana?

          Curious people would like to know.

          40

        • #
          Just-A-Guy

          PiperPaul,

          It’s a fascinating story but it never really happenned. (Gave you a green thumb anyway. ;) ). I bookmarked the link that describes the actual experiment and how it got blown out of proportion, but, wouldn’t you know it, I saved it so well that now I can’t find it. :(

          Will look for it again later on. Gotta run.

          Abe

          30

        • #
          gai

          Here is the origin of that monkey experimentstory:

          https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201203/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-human-behavior-facts-fiction

          ….primatologist Frans De Waal expressed some skepticism about the experiment and asked MM if he had a scientific reference for this study. In response to the comment from another reader, MM posted the following response: “FIVE MONKEYS. This story originated with the research of G.R. Stephenson. (Stephenson, G. R. (1967). Cultural acquisition of a specific learned response among rhesus monkeys. In: Starek, D., Schneider, R., and Kuhn, H. J. (eds.), Progress in Primatology, Stuttgart: Fischer, pp. 279-288.) Stephenson (1967) trained adult male and female rhesus monkeys to avoid manipulating an object and then placed individual naïve animals in a cage with a trained individual of the same age and sex and the object in question. In one case, a trained male actually pulled his naïve partner away from the previously punished manipulandum during their period of interaction, whereas the other two trained males exhibited what were described as “threat facial expressions while in a fear posture” when a naïve animal approached the manipulandum. When placed alone in the cage with the novel object, naïve males that had been paired with trained males showed greatly reduced manipulation of the training object in comparison with controls. Unfortunately, training and testing were not carried out using a discrimination procedure so the nature of the transmitted information cannot be determined, but the data are of considerable interest. His research inspired the story of five monkeys. Some believe the story is true, while others believed it’s an exaggerated account of his research. True story or not, his published research with rhesus monkeys, in my opinion, makes the point.”….

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  • #

    Here’s a reliable equation for you: Game Theory = Tosser.

    It’s like: Professor of Ethics = Twisted Misanthrope. You can put your house on some equations.

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    • #
      darcy

      Jo. My name is darryl Darcy. Im not well educated like your followers on this blog, meany of the comments i read here[and over the last 18 months]find very hard to understand? for the average joe out here! if only your bloggers could put things in simple english for dumb dumbs like myself [eg.MOSOMOSO} whom i don’t understand, would help.I love your site,keep up the good work.Darryl

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      • #

        Darryl,

        it’s the people like you who are the real targets for what we write here. Those people who just come along and read, and rarely, if ever, leave a comment. The fact that you keep coming back is actually indicative that you are educated enough to understand what is being said, and the longer you keep coming back, the more of it sinks in.

        There’s a good cross section here of people who can cover nearly every aspect of what this whole debate is really about, covering ….. EVERY aspect of this debate which we are told is no longer a debate at all.

        You want to know anything, just ask, flat out, no matter what. Someone will always reply.

        Tony.

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        Manfred

        Darryl, thank you for demonstrating to the wider world in general and the red thumbs in particular that it is a fallacy to use the pejorative term ‘echo chamber’ in the context of this site, this beacon of sanity.

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      • #
        gai

        Daryl just ask

        There is no such thing as a dumb question. Someone will usually answer with an explanation or a pointer.

        40

        • #
          Greg Cavanagh

          Instead of being abused, ridiculed and banned (as on other “un-named” climate blogs).

          30

          • #
            ROM

            Dary Darcy
            I also, a farmers son, am what I would call uneducated having left school permanently when I was 15 1/2 years old to spend a lifetime working on our farm.

            Maybe it shows but I also will be affected possibly severely by what these green on the outside, hard left red on the inside global warming / climate change cultists are proposing to inflict on mankind so I try to put my thoughts on the subject from my perspective whether my perspective is right, wrong or relevant or not.

            Others will make the decision on that but if I can make people “think” then I have accomplished something worth while doing.

            40

            • #
              Another Ian

              ROM

              I’m similar but different in that I have a Piled Higher and Deeper, spent a career in rangeland research and got out when political correctness looked like the in thing. Went back to ranching and got flogged by political correctness.

              And you’re right – any honest question in search of information is not dumb. A “superior reply” is IMO.

              We raised our brood to think and question – leads to some interesting times. But it seems to have launched them successfully

              40

        • #
          KinkyKeith

          Hello Darryl

          As Gai says above: “just ask”

          For example, you may have come to the conclusion that most of us on this site understand that carbon dioxide, which is a bye product of making electricity, does not have the effect of making the world much hotter than it is already.

          You might be curious about that and ask for more detail.

          Most of it is just common sense and can be broken down into simple bits that can be understood.

          KK

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  • #
    Lawrie Ayres

    Maybe it is time to play the same game as the bullies. I don’t own a twitter account nor do I do Facebook but most of our protagonists do apparently. Why not select say Clive Hamilton or Will Steffen of Tim (the rains won’t come) Flannery and pound their social media accounts. It seems we conservatives are quite capable of absorbing all sorts of harassment and bullying but I am sure the lefties cannot. So maybe attack is the best form of defence.

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    • #
      Soarer

      Any deviant from the ‘sky is falling’ line is very quickly blocked by these chancers. Its almost a badge of honour amongst sceptics to be blocked.

      They do not want discussion, or an exchange of views. They cannot answer the questions, so they block.

      Ever wondered why not one of them will engage in an open debate with Jo, or Willis, or Steve, or Matt? They know their lies and exaggerations will be exposed.

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    • #
      gai

      You just get blocked by them or in the case of Steven Goddard, get your account removed.

      Facebook and Twitter are only for the Anointed.

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    • #
      clive

      You could be on to something Lawrie.I have just sent my “Elected Pollie”an Email about this story,so it could also be a good idea if we all did the same.

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    • #
      gnome

      I’m just hoping cook and lewandowsky get offended enough by something Mark Steyn writes, to sue him.

      Come on Mark – cook and lewandowsky must be just as deserving as Mann.

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  • #
    Yonniestone

    Cooperation forced via threats and duress used to be called a siege, Climate Incentives just sounds so much nicer and your sins will be absolved once you conform to the Borg.

    What exciting times of diversity we live in!

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      It reeks of Mafioso…stand over tactics and threats….

      I predicted they would up the ante once they realized the sceptics are getting through to the population.

      We will know if we are succeeding – they will create a financial crisis or another imagined pandemic to shift the focus of the sheep….they have huge resources.

      Were starting to see the true face of these nhilistic lunatics being exposed for how they really think…..

      I keep thinking back to “V for Vendetta” and the police state and how it worked….eerily similar echoes.

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  • #
    diogenese2

    But didn’t Dr Samuel Johnson previously write;
    “But it cannot be said that as we are grown wise we are made happy. It is said of those who have the wonderful power of second sight, that they seldom see anything but evil. Political second sight has the same effect, we hear of nothing but an alarming crisis, of violated rights and expiring liberties. The morning rises upon new wrongs and the dreamer passes the night in imaginary shackles”.
    Oh my mistake – that was the other one – from “The False Alarm” 1770.

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  • #
    John Watt

    Are they concerned that Copenhagen achieved little so they are giving Paris some “help”?
    Surely the effort would be better directed towards finding the real drivers of any harmful climate effects? These people aren’t in the real world but get their kicks playing convoluted psycho games.


    Means to an ends crowd. No principle is too sacred. – Jo

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  • #
    manalive

    This is just hostage-taking as practiced by gangsters and gangster-nations throughout history dressed up as sophisticated research.

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  • #

    Targeted punishment? Heh, Saul Alinsky’s
    ‘Rules for Radicals 3 and 13.
    !3) Look for ways to increase insecurity,
    anxiety and uncertainty.(13) Pick the target,
    freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.’

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    AndyG55

    This is how ISIS works. !

    260

  • #
    pat

    how low can they go?
    from Glenn Greenwald’s Intercept website, funded by billionaire Pierre Omidyar, by Lee Fang, formerly of the Foundation-funded Nation:

    26 Aug: The Intercept: LeeFang: Attorney Hounding Climate Scientists Is Covertly Funded By Coal Industry
    Christopher Horner, an attorney who claims that the earth is cooling, is known within the scientific community for hounding climate change researchers with relentless investigations and public ridicule, often deriding scientists as “communists” and frauds…
    New court documents reveal one source of Horner’s funding: big coal.
    Last Thursday’s bankruptcy filing of Alpha Natural Resources, one of the largest coal companies in America, includes line items for all of the corporation’s contractors and grant recipients. Among them are Horner individually at his home address, as well as the Free Market Environmental Law Clinic, where he is a senior staff attorney…
    In early June this year, the Coal & Investment Leadership Forum, a trade show, sent this message to its email list: “As the ‘war on coal’ continues, I trust that the commitment we have made to support Chris Horner’s work will eventually create great awareness of the illegal tactics being employed to pass laws that are intended to destroy our industry.” …
    COMMENT: by JV
    It would be great if the news outlets would stop performing stenography for for a radical group of environmentalists and actually stopped to take a real look at the so called ‘science’ rather than regurgitating increasingly shrill nonsense from the extreme left.
    This site justifiably blasts other sites for sloppy journalism on every other topic. You should focus that insight on the global warming fear mongering.
    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/08/25/chris-horner-coal/

    CAGW sceptics must never have any money. we believers must have it all.

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  • #
    Bob Malloy

    Newcastle City Council does not need their arm twisted. The city that boast the largest coal port in the world will disinvest from fossil fuels.

    IT’S the $270 million storm that has split Labor factions, divided Newcastle council, drawn fire from the federal government and ignited a new war among business and environment groups over the future of the Hunter’s coal industry.

    At its centre is $270 million worth of Newcastle ratepayer funds which, under a plan backed by the city’s Labor and Greens councillors, will change the way the money is invested and held in trust.

    A plan spearheaded by Labor councillor Declan Clausen cleared its final hurdle on Tuesday night when a council majority voted in favour of pulling the council’s investment portfolio away from banks that invest in fossil fuel projects.

    God help us, it’s obvious our elected officials won,t.

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    • #
      AndyG55

      Japan has at least NINE new coal fired power stations planned (that’s only in 2 prefectures)

      and Japan gets a lot of coal from Australia.

      Newcastle council is making a truly stupid decision… as usual.

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      • #
        AndyG55

        chuckle.. it will be interesting to see if any of my comments make it through moderation on that Faux Facts site.

        I wasn’t rude.. so there may be a chance.

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      • #
        Manfred

        Newcastle joins other eco-marxist city councils like the Dunedin City Council in New Zealand, one that champions ff divestment while it pays its CEO $340,000 pa. to ‘manage’ the trifling population of 127,000, and simultaneously manage the colossus of council debt that enslaves future generations.

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    • #
      OriginalSteve

      ho ho….you just cant make this stuff up…

      I used to think the universe was infinite, then human stupidity has gazumped it….( well maybe not, but it sure feels it when I read such bizarre stuff…)

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  • #
    pat

    bagging for a seat at the IPCC table! hilarious:

    25 Aug: Inside Climate News: Climate Change’s Overlooked Sociological Side
    A Q&A with Robert J. Brulle about a new book by members of the American Sociological Association on what they can contribute to the climate debate.
    The book, “Climate Change and Society” (Oxford University Press), is a series of academic essays by ASA members on issues they believe are critical to climate change policy, including climate justice, consumption, mitigation and adaptation, public opinion and the social movements both for and against climate change action.
    Robert J. Brulle, a professor of sociology and environmental science at Drexel University, co-edited the book along with Riley E. Dunlap of Oklahoma State University. Brulle is already a familiar name among policymakers for his research into the dark money flowing into climate change denial groups…
    http://insideclimatenews.org/news/25082015/climate-changes-overlooked-sociological-side

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    • #
      diogenese2

      Reading the introduction to Dr Johnsons paper and the above ref. it is clear that the Sociologists have no more idea than the Psychologists of the political, sociological and psychological dimensions of the Global Warming Narrative.
      Dr Johnsons paper, in perceiving this issue to being a “tragedy of the commons” is as far removed from our world as anything by the late, great, Terry Pratchett. “The international community is a bit like a failed state”. No it bloody isn’t, it is not, or has ever been a unity. Somehow he is unaware of the relationship between the UN (as the administrators of a treaty – the UNFCCC) and the Conference of the Parties (as the owners). The UN is NOT a party – the framework affirms the sovereignty of each of the 192 members.
      Decisions are by consensus. No votes are taken (just as well for us in Annexe 1).A “binding agreement”, the Holy Grail of the EU, is impossible as there is no method of enforcement – Dr Johnsons pathetic process is pure fantasy. The only irrational nations are those few who actually have at least acted, at crippling cost, as if they believe the “climate catastrophe”. The “developing nations” appear perfectly rational in their objectives – economic development as fast an cheap as possible and to screw Annexe 1 until the pips squeak.

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    • #
      gai

      I sure as heck would like some of that ” dark money flowing into” my very anemic bank account!

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      • #
        Just-A-Guy

        gai,

        It’s called ‘dark money’ for the same reason that ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’ are called dark. There’s an assumption that it must exist, but no-one has ever discovered it. ;)

        Abe

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        • #
          gai

          There’s an assumption that it must exist, but no-one has ever discovered it.

          Yeah, the accountants at my bank haven’t found it either.

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  • #

    I see Diogenes has already picked up on the irony that this piece of Orwellian endarkenment is written by someone called “Dr Samuel Johnson”.

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  • #
    Robdel

    So this CAGW is just a game!

    80

    • #
      gai

      Always has been. But try getting the fact it is ALL political through the skulls of the Alarmists and the Luke Warmers.

      80

  • #
    Peter C

    Skeptics need to get the message out to their ministers who are going to Paris.

    Relevant Ministers would be:
    Greg Hunt (Environment)
    Tony Abbott (Prime Minister)
    Joe Hockey (Treasurer)
    Mathias Gorman Finance)
    Julie Bishop (Foreign)

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    • #
      AndyG55

      Paris is nice, but the Liberals should send a very strong message…

      … and NOT SEND ANYONE.

      Otherwise, any decision will look like a sell-out and the Libs will go back even further in the polls.

      If the Libs sign ANYTHING to do with climate change, I will most definitely be voting with a big “stuff you” (or similar) written right across the ballot paper.

      Be the Liberal conservative party … or be NOTHING !!!

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      • #
        Dennis

        A $30 million Union Movement election campaign is underway now for 2016, door knocking, letterbox drops, door knocking, pub talks, and more. Radio and television blitz planned too. But note, the Unions and their Labor Party (ALP) both intend to field candidates, and many masquerading as independents, mostly in marginal electorates. Obviously there will be the extreme Greens joining them for preference swapping so it will pay voters to not give preferences where permitted, like above the line for the Senate and marking on box (1) for the House of Representatives. They want to control us and to protect their union members from prosecution following Trade Union Royal Commission inquiries, witness questioning and referral to law agencies. Around thirty already referred. Bill Shorten has provided fifteen files of evidence at the TURC during his first appearance and he is listed to appear again as a witness soon.

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  • #
    mmxx

    Dream press release from Paris in December 2015:

    The IPPC has agreed that attempts for global climate change resolution be put on ice until there is a thaw in Australia/Canada/UK’s opposition to commit to funding UN objectives for global governance based on climate.

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    • #
      Manfred

      Pure delirium from Paris 2015 (with acknowledgement to mmxx)

      The IPPC has agreed that attempts for global climate change resolution be put on ice until there is a thaw in Australia/Canada/UK’s opposition to commit to funding UN objectives for global governance based on the current UN definition of climate change.

      The various parties have agreed to talks as soon as an evidence-based approach to climate is agreed upon. It is widely believed that this is unachievable in the present political climate.

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    • #
      Kevin Lohse

      It’s India and Canada that will lead the opposition. Only the Indian government has had the courage to declare Greenpeace a threat to National Security. Devious Dave Cameron will grovel for crumbs from the UN table. Hope Mr Abbott has the moral fibre to refuse to play.

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      • #
        Canadian

        If we end up with NDP or Liberal in power following the National election in October (Canada), we are completely screwed as those parties have joined the greenies in fully subscribing to the scam. If you pray, pray for us who are sane Canadians.

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      • #
        Dennis

        Isn’t Prime Minister Tony Abbott a marked man now, as Christopher Monckton warned in his recent video appearance? Marked for being one of the leaders opposing.

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    • #
      WhaleHunt Fun

      Dream press release: The meteor which struck Paris killing 40,000 politicians and activists was confined to the conference area and so fortuitously, there was no negative effects.

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      • #
        gai

        The warning has already given.

        Italy captures the WORLD one-day snowfall record

        …“It’s official,” says meteoweb.eu. “Capracotta and Pescocostanzo, Italy, are the snowiest places in the world! The data is scary.”

        256cm (8.34 ft) of snow Capracotta (which lies at 1,421 meters in the province of Isernia),

        240cm (7.84 ft) in Pescocostanzo (which lies at 1,395 meters in the province of L’Aquila):

        These are the two new records for snowfall in a span of only 24 hours, that is, in one day, although in reality all this snow fell in about 18 hours on Thursday, March 5, 2015.

        And at higher altitudes, accumulations are much more significant.

        The previous world record snowfall most snow in 24 hours was set in Silver Lake, Colorado, where between 20 and April 21, 1921 fell 193cm (6.33 ft) of snow in 24 hours….

        Before that in January Greek islands were buried under 6½ ft (2 m) of snow

        Did Pope John heed the warning? Did the EU? NOOoooo.! So next time it is not snow falling from the sky but rocks.

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    • #

      I seem to remember a coordinated UN plan to get rid of Harper and Abbott before Paris, which seems to be fully operational in Australia right now.

      50

      • #
        Dennis

        Christopher Monckton released a video warning about international and internal attack against Tony Abbott.

        80

  • #

    I’m sure that Russia, China and India love to have their domestic policies dictated by TPLACs.

    It’s a shame that there aren’t any historians at Warwick who could have explained the Westphalian Peace to Dr Samuel Johnson, et al. Dr Johnson claiming that one can “combat climate change” indicates that he needs to start again as an undergraduate as he doesn’t appreciate that the alarmist climate models (and any other “physical” model) are necessarily bunkum. Moreover, the idea that we can stop the weather from changing is both arrogant and physically absurd.

    The Westphalian Peace ended the 30 years’ war that ravaged central Europe until 1648. That war also started as a religious conflict and evolved into one of nations struggling for supremacy. Out of the Peace came the concept of Westphalian sovereignty: that no nation should interfere in the domestic politics (or territory) of another sovereign nation.

    Every attempt to subvert the sovereignty of another nation “invites” a response and retribution if it’s perceived as a trespass. Europeans worked that out after 30 years of trial and error, nearly 400 years ago.

    Why are their modern decendants so averse to learning from history?

    Do they not understand that one doesn’t poke sticks into a wasps’ nest? According to Dr Johnson, it’s quite effective for many to be (collaboratively) poking little sticks into a few wasps’ nests.

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    • #
      diogenese2

      Of course the treaty did end the religious imperative to warfare but did not generate peace. Mind you the United kingdom was not a party to that agreement much to the cost of the French, Dutch, Austrians, Germans, Russians and the Spanish over the following 300 years.

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  • #
    Mikky

    The Royal Society is no longer a reputable scientific organisation, now that it admits economists (Lord Stern) and takes part in political activities. It is not just charities and broadcasters that have been taken over by Green activists.

    This paper should be regarded as just another one to add to the pile of junk, along with the 97% consensus and the psychology of sceptics.

    170

  • #
    Bloke down the pub

    The Greens have always spread their message by claiming that anyone who disagrees with them wants to kill the children of the future. This is just an extension to the national scale, something that has been happening at the personal level for decades.

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    • #
      WhaleHunt Fun

      Whilst in a tiny minority, there do exist people some few such as myself who gleefully await the extermination of the children of the Greens, and indeed all traces of their DNA. So they are not absolutely 100% wrong in their looney ravings.

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    • #
      Stupendus

      While the greens actually kill children now by denying access to cheap energy and GM crops

      41

  • #
    pat

    23 Aug MSM ran story “Rupert Murdoch wants Michael Bloomberg to run for president”
    (CNN’s headline) about a tweet of Murdoch’s which made me laugh given Bloomberg’s CAGW zealotry, but now we have:

    27 Aug: CNN: David Wright: Rupert Murdoch links regulations, climate change ‘nonsense’ to global financial turmoil
    Media mogul Rupert Murdoch took to Twitter Wednesday night to weigh in on the recent volatility in global financial markets, calling small business “the only hope for growth” while decrying the regulatory obstacles standing in its way — and pointing a finger at climate change “alarmist nonsense.”…
    “In the last 3 decades carbon in US air has reduced by nearly 50%,” he observed, adding that he is “A climate change skeptic not a denier.”
    But he proceeded to blast climate change activists, saying “Sept UN meets in NY with endless alarmist nonsense from u know whom! Pessimists always seen as sages.”…
    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/27/politics/rupert-murdoch-links-regulations-climate-change-nonsense-to-global-financial-turmoil/index.html

    if only this was a relative possibility at ABC:

    26 Aug: Guardian: Mark Sweney: More BBC licence fee cuts could cost 32,000 jobs, warns Tony Hall
    Independent producers, suppliers and studios would suffer from downsizing, says Tony Hall, as government review questions breadth of corporation’s remit
    “New research shows that, because of the boost the BBC provides, if you cut the licence fee by 25% you’d lose about 32,000 jobs across the whole economy,” said Hall. “These aren’t just jobs at the BBC, but across the TV industry – at independent producers, suppliers and studios up and down the country.”…
    Hall argued that critics who say the BBC is too big are mistaken, despite the corporation growing from two channels to nine since 1994…
    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/25/bbc-licence-fee-tv-industry-tony-hall

    50

    • #
      Canadian

      We get the same whining from the CBC over budget cuts (less funding from the public purse). They even resort to putting out anti Harper adverts with the election campaign on. Blatant media bias yet again.

      80

  • #
    Neville

    Amazing that the same Royal Society stated in their 2013 report that there is nothing we can do to change co2 levels or temp for thousands of years.
    We could stop all co2 emissions today and it still wouldn’t matter. Are these people mad or what? Do they really expect the world to spend endless trillions of $ for NOTHING? They’ve just admitted that the mitigation of their CAGW is a total con and fraud. Shouldn’t the taxpayers be informed about this confusion.?
    Here’s a link to that info—- https://royalsociety.org/policy/projects/climate-evidence-causes/question-20/

    And here’s the scientists that wrote the report, including 7 IPCC authors and 5 of them were lead authors. https://royalsociety.org/policy/projects/climate-evidence-causes/contributors/

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  • #
    pat

    26 Aug: Reuters: Developing nations need $133 bln geothermal investment by 2030-report
    By Chris Arsenault
    If developing nations are to carry out planned expansion of geothermal energy capacity, $133 billion needs to be invested in the sector by 2030, the Climate Policy Initiative (CPI) research group reported on Wednesday.
    Meeting the target to build 23GW of geothermal capacity over the next 15 years (one GW is enough energy to power 750,000 homes) would require a 7- to 10-fold increase in funding from governments and development financing bodies, the CPI said.
    Public financing for geothermal projects should increase to between $56 billion and $73 billion by 2030 from $7.4 billion today, the CPI said…
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/26/climatechange-electricity-geothermal-idUSL5N1113HR20150826

    40

  • #
    Mike

    The Greeks are familiar with game theory (Varoufakis studied it.) and are exemplary in the massive reductions in CO2 they have attained in little less than a year.

    Game theory definitely works in achieving CO2 austerity measures. No doubt about it.

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  • #
    ROM

    My immediate reaction to University of Warwicks and the Royal Society’s Samuel Johnsons’ promoting of a targeted punishments for nations not conforming with his and their own personal climate related beliefs was;

    That is one hell of a deep hole you are digging there and if somebody of importance somewhere doesn’t like what you are doing and promoting they won’t have many problems in kicking in the side of that hole and they might have a lot of other nationalities jumping in to help them fill that hole which the unfortunate Samuel Johnson and his university and Royal Society mates might still be down at the bottom of.

    At best when and if the climate scam penny drops the promoters of this craziness might well find themselves very constrained and very restricted in where they might go and what they might do particularly if what they are promoting has severe repercussions for individuals and nations, as their own personal safety and future prospects might become of subject of considerable interest to themselves if the hypothesised global cooling phase soon gets under way.

    As the whole proposition is based on game theory and therefore modeled and we know that frequently / mostly, reliance on models to predict outcomes in any game theory involving predicted psychologically based responses of the human species, the human species being the ornery types they are, is a very certain way of getting results that are often completely contrary and / or wildly wrong from what was expected.

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  • #

    The RS has always been a bit flaky. It was once chaired by a covert alchemist, but he also dabbled in math, optics, celestial mechanics and other boring stuff like that.

    Pointman

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  • #
    WhaleHunt Fun

    Such punitive measures should be treated as an act of war. The extermination of the warmongers, while inarguably necessary, should of course be undertaken in the manner most likely to avoid collateral damage to the rest of their communities.

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  • #
    gai

    Speaking of “naming and shaming” nations, this is an interesting piece from Stanford Univ. (Stanford is the home of Paul Ehrlich, co-author with John P. Holdren Obama’s science czar, of Ecoscience: Population, Resources, Environment (1978) and The population bomb (1968) Stanford is also the home of Leif Svalgaard.)

    February 16, 2014 Pascal Lamy discusses global economic growth and the future of global governance

    ….In his farewell statement as the Director-General, Mr. Lamy said in July 2013: “Together, we have strengthened the WTO as the global trade body, as a major pillar of global economic governance. Despite the heavy headwinds and the turmoil in the global economy as well as on the geo-political scene, together we have made this organization larger and stronger.”

    Mr. Lamy drew on these experiences to offer insights related to the designing of global governance during his visit to Stanford…..

    …In this talk, Mr. Lamy outlined a statement of his own thinking about the future of global governance and international trade, and described what remains to be done in addressing the challenges of globalization. Additionally, he reflected on the features of modern politics that create governance gridlock and thwart global oversight, and identified how progress can be made in overcoming impediments to policy action at the international level.

    Mr. Lamy’s lecture focused on three overarching points. First, notwithstanding some setbacks, governments and international organizations have achieved major successes in regulating the liberalization of global trade. Tariffs are on average lower than ever before, and governments did not raise tariffs during the recent financial crisis as they did during the Great Depression.

    The WTO has played a central role in facilitating regulatory convergence in international trade. Institutional features such as the organization’s dispute resolution mechanisms have deterred nations from enacting unilateral forms of protectionism. Additionally, by “naming and shaming” nations that raise tariffs during economic crises, the WTO has prevented reversals to autarky in the global economy.….

    Third, in order to overcome this governance gridlock and achieve regulatory convergence, we need to bring together stakeholders from the public and private sector to build coalitions that jointly negotiate conflicts in matters of global governance.

    For example, the “C20-C30-C40 Coalition of the Working” that comprises the 20 largest countries, the 30 largest companies, and the 40 largest cities in the world is currently striving to overcome regulatory gridlock on climate change. This coalition can define carbon emissions targets, supervise urban infrastructure projects, and evaluate progress on energy and environmental objectives.

    Mr. Lamy reiterated that trade can only serve as an engine for economic development if governments and international institutions enact economic and social policies that reflect the preferences of a broad swath of global stakeholders. Only by adapting the governance structures of the twentieth century to respond to the challenges of the twenty-first century, can we overcome new forms of policy gridlock at the international level.

    So the “naming and shaming” of nations has already been used sucessfully to keep countries from protecting their workers and economies.

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      diogenese2

      Gai: An outstanding and subtle contribution to the issues of “Global Governance” & “Naming & Shaming”. Pascal Lamy’s 3 points are worth expanding.
      Point 1: “free trade and open markets enhance economic competitiveness, generate growth & raise welfare around the world”. True throughout all of recorded (and deduced) history.
      Anything which suppressed trade reversed prosperity.
      Thus the demise of Tariff Barriers, which were always double edged weapons. The was no “naming and shaming”.Retaliation was enough to bring the dissenters into line. Hence Point 2;
      the emergence on Non Tariff Barriers. As a former EU commissioner he is an expert (indeed creator) of these on a global scale, exhibiting all his French artistry when organising trading within the EU.
      Of course overcoming these leads to point 3; Governance.
      Clearly his vision mirrors the corrupt and morbid structure of the European commission, but honestly – how can you look at the self appointed members of his “C20-C30-C40 coalition of the working” without ROTFLYAO? THESE are the elite to rule the world? The mention of “private constructive discussions with Mayor of London Boris Johnson” reprised “send in the clowns” in my head.
      The point is, the World Trade Organisation, like the Conference of Parties belongs to its members and mutual interest does not include voluntary enslavement.

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        gai

        diogenese2 says:

        Point 1: “free trade and open markets enhance economic competitiveness, generate growth & raise welfare around the world”. True throughout all of recorded (and deduced) history.

        Actually I disagree with that. Why? Because you are not talking ‘free trade’ you are talking what is the most lucrative arrangement for the transnational corporations.

        The IMF even says:

        …In many countries the distribution of income has become more unequal, and the top earners’ share of income in particular has risen dramatically. In the United States the share of the top 1 percent has close to tripled over the past three decades, now accounting for about 20 percent of total U.S. income (Alvaredo and others, 2012).
        (wwwDOT)imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2012/09/dervis.htm

        If the USA has very restrictive regulations that make energy and the cost of doing business 10X higher than China or Mexico, how is that fair?

        As of 1 May 2013, the highest monthly minimum wage in China is 1,600 yuan ($265.64 US Dollar). The lowest minimum wage was 1,010 yuan ( $165.62 US Dollar ). US minimum wage is ~$1250/month @ $7.25/hr. That is what American workers are competing against on top of lax regulations.

        Or how about the opposite?

        “We Made a Devil’s Bargain”: Fmr. President Clinton Apologizes for Trade Policies that Destroyed Haitian Rice Farming

        From the Australian email newsletter, Agmates:

        Bill Clinton Admits Global Free Trade Policy has Forced Millions Of People into Poverty. (Link is old and dead)
        (wwwDOT)agmates.com/blog/2008/11/01/bill-clinton-admits-global-

        Former US president Bill Clinton admits that the US `free trade’ policy has forced millions of people in third world countries into poverty and starvation.

        “Today’s global food crisis shows we all blew it, including me when I was president, by treating food crops as commodities instead of as a vital right of the world’s poor, Bill Clinton has told a UN gathering.

        Clinton took aim at decades of international policymaking by the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and others, encouraged by the US, that pressured Africans in particular into dropping government subsidies for fertiliser, improved seed and other farm inputs, in economic “structural adjustments” required to win northern aid. Africa’s food self-sufficiency subsequently declined and food imports rose.

        “Food is not a commodity like others,” Clinton said. “We should go back to a policy of maximum food self-sufficiency. It is crazy for us to think we can develop countries around the world without increasing their ability to feed themselves.”

        World-renowned environmental leader, food-sovereignty activist and author Dr Vandana Shiva agrees with Clinton and in this video takes aim at the IMF and World bank over the same issues.

        Also tariffs (trade barriers) used to be the major source of US federal income before WWII. Now the fed takes most of their money directly from the wages of the people instead, a double whammy for jobs, wages and the economy.

        I wish this graph would display.

        http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=264

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  • #
    Just-A-Guy

    Jo,

    The article your reviewing is based on Game Theory, right?

    From your OP:

    “In the mathematical model,” said Dr Johnson, “the mechanism works best if the players are somewhat irrational. It seems a reasonable assumption that this might apply to the international community.”

    From The Basics Of Game Theory on investopedia:

    As with any concept in economics, there is the assumption of rationality. There is also an assumption of maximization. It is assumed that players within the game are rational and will strive to maximize their payoffs in the game. (The question of rationality has been applied to investor behavior as well. Read Understanding Investor Behavior to learn more.)

    Bold Italics in both quotes mine.* Abe

    Do I really need to make the obvious, more obvious?

    Abe

    * There were a few links in that quote from investopedia but I left them out out of pure lazyness. Sorriez!

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  • #
    Ruairi

    How Rome kept its army in line,
    Was to punish each tenth and skip nine.
    This worked right away,
    As the rest would obey,
    Which alarmists agree would be fine.

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    • #
      Canadian

      While topical and cute, not historically correct. The practice of decimation was used only in cases where a legion had committed mutiny. As nations are sovereign and not subject to orders, hardly applies. Any attempt can constitute casis belli or a justification for war/hostilities. These actions the group advocates are much like piracy or commerce warfare and meet the legal & moral definitions of being warlike acts.

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      • #
        Just-A-Guy

        Canadian,

        Isn’t ‘not complying’ with the accepted and agreed upon consensus policy as set forth by the UN agreements being construed in the article as mutiny? It’s fairly clear that this is what’s being proposed if not in words, then at least conceptually. They may only call it non-compliance but . . .

        It wouldn’t surprise me in the least I’d bet dollars to donuts that ‘decimation’ is where they got the idea in the first place.

        As far as the sovereignty of nations goes, Figueres has often spoken of a ‘regime’ that needs to be ‘put in place’ in order to ‘oversee the implementation’ of any future climate treaties. And the goal is to make those treaties ‘legally binding’. They call it the UN Framework Convention on CC for a reason. All you need to do is look closely at their definition of ‘framework’ and you’ll find it simply means ‘a system of governance’.

        That vision doesn’t leave much room for sovereignty, if you ask me. And don’t be fooled into thinking that this vision is her’s alone. She’s just the mouthpiece for the group, and this group’s not joking. They’re playing for keeps and they’re in this thing to win.

        Abe

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          Canadian

          And WE will not fear nor allow them to succeed. I carried arms for my country for over 30 years and am more than willing to do so again.

          Pro Patria
          ex Coelis
          Osons

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            Canadian

            PS:
            the Vienna Convention does not apply to UN matters and therefore UN silly stunts cannot have any standing in international law unless the country concerned allows it. You have to wonder what the reaction would be is one of the five founding nations of the UN withdrew from that now corrupt body…

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          Manfred

          Implementation of quasi-global governance at the hands of the UN with the ‘climate’ compliance of the willing, would I believe run a risk of plunging the world into further chaos.

          If the UN imagines that they’ve seen ‘climate refugees’ now, they may need to think again. For, if it ever became a choice between incarceration under a UN compliant government, or living in a ‘free’ non-compliant nation, I know where I’ll be seeking asylum!

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      • #
        Ruairi

        The verse is symbolically true,
        Though historically lacking to you,
        That to plan in advance,
        To punish by chance,
        Is what warmists are anxious to do.

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    • #
      gai

      Unfortunately my comment about decimation near the top of the thread is still sitting in moderation. The subject matter is the stuff of nightmares so I can understand why it got held. For example the French and Italians still used the method during the 20th century.

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      • #
        Canadian

        POUR ENCOURAGER LES AUTRES

        [The purpose of this blog is to provide clear communication, and the language of this blog is English. Not Latin, and not French, but English. Please respect the site rules. -Fly]

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        • #
          Canadian

          The phrase may be in french, but is recognised around the world. Translation: for the encouragement of the others. Would you also ban my regimental motto’s of ex Coelis and Osons?

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    Dave in the states

    (in part reply to post 16.1)The problem faced by Parisites is how to enforce and fund their decree’s. I recall one of Obama’s petulant exclaims in frustration a few years ago: ” Words mean something XXXX it!” Well sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t.

    Many Americans, myself included, consider any law, treaty, executive agreements, bureaucratic policies and rules, administrative laws, and so forth, and especially taxes and fees, that have not gone through the proper due process of debate and approval by Congress, as literally prescribed by the Constitution, to be illegitimate and tyranny.

    As far as we (and the people we hopefully will soon elect) are concerned, the Paris accords will be nothing but empty words. Pulling funding from the UN could be good next step too. I don’t think naming and shaming us will be effective. We just don’t care.

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    Just-A-Guy

    Who are we kidding if not ourselves.

    UN sanctioned embargoes have been used to ‘Nudge’ nations into complying with one or another policy since . . . well, almost since the inception of the UN.

    Seems to me this is all just a way to ‘morally justify’ and later ‘formally legalize’ the forcing of nations into compliance submission.

    Abe

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    john robertson

    Tis indeed problem facing Parasites worldwide, the wealth available to be stolen is shrinking as their ranks grow exponentially.
    Supply and demand really.
    Only government can take production that does not yet exist, claim it as income and then pass regulation preventing that production from ever taking place.
    This is the dementia of the bureaus.
    Kipling was right.
    However people know better, we just stop making that effort, you cannot take from me labour I refuse to do..
    This Decembers meeting in Paris risks serious backlash, when you gather thousands of self righteous troughers in a high priced venue, at huge expense to taxpayers, where they will berate those same taxpayers to repent of their evil productive ways and embrace the way of the takers… as the economy craters in and savings vanish, negative interest on savings, every increasing tax on necessities .
    Yes this is sure to end well.
    Here in Canada the tax payers federation just announced real taxation is 42% for the average canadian.
    And all our Presstitutes and Pollies are campaigning to tax us more.

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    • #
      Canadian

      Not all. The libs, dippers & greens want runaway taxes. The conservatives not so much….but of course the biased media hates Harper and are doing all they can to skew the election….yet again….hopefully we sane Canadians will again prevail.

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        Canadian

        OT Question: Will the Greens try to get away with stacking the votes in the saanich gulf islands riding with illegal voting (non-residents imported for the sole purpose of ensuring May’s election as they did last time around) or will the new requirements for positive identification catch them out? Some addresses on Saltspring island had a three day increase of up to 17 “residents” (according to vouching) and other addresses were (miracles happen?) created from the deep ocean rather than on land. Interesting how Elections Canada (supposedly non-partisan) refuses to investigate despite documentry proof, preffering to only go after conservatives for minor bookkeeping “offences”.

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        • #
          gai

          Same thing happened in the USA. Except Obama had the IRS and other bureaucratic agencies go after True The Vote.
          http://www.ijreview.com/2014/04/129120-true-vote-witness-testified-irs-scandal-pens-blazing-letter-grandstanding-democrat/

          True The Votes archived copy on How Widespread is Voter Fraud? | 2012 Facts & Figures

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          • #
            Manfred

            The recent admission by the IRS that its employees improperly subjected certain organizations to heightened scrutiny based upon their political affiliation raises troubling questions about the agency’s ability to manage Obamacare in a competent and impartial manner. At a time when doubts are growing about the IRS’s politically biased behavior, Obamacare grants the agency massive new authority to implement its complex and bureaucratic regime.
            Chris Jacobs

            The use of the IRS by Obama for purposes other than gathering tax is a very risky tactic. Why? Because nations and governments cannot function without a tax base and more importantly, maintain a populous willing to accept that paying tax is necessary for governance and national functionality.

            When Obama et Dems use the IRS in other ways, they run the risk of magnifying widespread resistance and resentment against an (already unpopular) tax gatherer, this time for off-label activities.

            Ultimately, they create conditions that may result in the structural disintegration of a society now unwilling to co-operate with the IRS at any level. The only answer then is default collection at the end of a gun or computer, which is one reason why the eternal bureaucratic kontrol favourite is a cashless society with remote auto-kollection.

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    • #
      gai

      john robertson says “…However people know better, we just stop making that effort, you cannot take from me labour I refuse to do…”

      Actually what is happening is people are just going underground. If the taxes get too high and the regulations too idiotic and the Parasites to ‘In Your Face’ people just ignore the government. (That is the real reason they want to tax CO2, you can not evade the tax.)

      $2 Trillion US Underground Economy

      … Estimates are that underground activity last year totaled as much as $2 trillion. The growing underground economy may be helping to prevent the real economy from sinking further, according to analysts. The shadow economy is a system composed of those who can’t find a full-time or regular job. Workers turn to anything that pays them under the table, with no income reported and no taxes paid. “I think the underground economy is quite big in the U.S.,” said Alexandre Padilla, associate professor of economics at Metropolitan State University of Denver. “Whether it’s using undocumented workers or those here legally, it’s pretty large.” …

      Two trillion is, of course, a lot of money, perhaps 15 percent of the entire US economy and is one reason that this economic situation receives little if no reporting. Another may be because it could be much larger than two trillion.

      We figure that unemployment is twice as high as stated, tax avoidance is twice as high, criminality is twice as high, etc. We would therefore be tempted to double the figures on the underground from two to four trillion.

      Now, this may seem like a lot but if you live in the US, think back a week and try to total up your off-the-books transactions….

      The US – like most “advanced” countries, is chock full of transactions that avoid official standards and taxes. It has to be this way, as those advancing the bureaucratic/nationalistic narrative continue to raise taxes, add to the regulatory state and generally make it impossible for people to survive without breaking at least some laws.….

      The best part of this article.

      As more and more people participate in the underground economy, as governments make it increasingly difficult to survive, the number of people throughout the West “dropping out” no doubt increases.

      Not only do they drop out but they also withdraw their allegiance from the state as it is and the philosophy that it enunciates. Money is power, and if people can generate their funds by circumventing modern government, they may well do so, especially if they are increasingly desperate due to lack of employment, etc.

      This expanding underground economy presents an existential threat to the powers-that-be and to business as usual. It is not remarked upon a great deal but it is no doubt beginning to provide a significant alternative to Leviathan.

      This new article is even better and it is not a spoof despite the title. Approaching Asteroid Threatens Banks

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    Mark Fraser

    Canadian – I thought we might just vote for Ms. May – little chance that a Conservative could win in this riding, and I’d do almost anything, not including a gross immoral act, to keep the Libs and NDP out. Were there any hope of a Green party win, well, that’s a different cauldron of herring.

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    • #
      Canadian

      It’s that attitude that will keep May in Parliament, telling all how much she loves a convicted terrorist, hates everyone who wore the CAF uniform, thinks Canada is a “fascist dictatorship”, and is about to destroy the world. There is a conservative candidate and a very good chance to unseat her without bringing in the libs or dippers. The greens won’t be able to pull the same stunt this time around, people are aware and will be watching with official scruitineers to prevent a repeat of that [snip].

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      • #
        Canadian

        the word “fraud” gets snipped????

        [Yes, it does. -Fly]
        [In a generic context it MIGHT get posted. The word will ALWAYS get caught by the moderation filter. This is Joann's rule.] ED

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    David S

    Why do warmists never criticise China? Because it’s actually not about emissions. To think that allowing China to increase emissions till 2030 whilst pressuring everyone else to put on economic straight jackets makes no sense. Yet that’s exactly what’s happening. To me this is the biggest proof that this is a fraudulent exercise about power and money and not Global Warming. Without China on board everything else that the world does is nothing but an exercise in futility.

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    • #
      Dave in the states

      Its an exercise in futility if China is on board as well. It’s complete futility because human Co2 emissions are virtually irrelevant to the climate cycles. All it does is make some people richer, and many, many, poorer or locked into poverty.

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  • #
    Another Ian

    Jo

    The link in Bubba Cow’s reply might allow some return targeting

    Dan

    August 27, 2015 at 6:39 am

    It has not achieved nothing. It has achieved a net negative.

    Windmills sit on a cement base structure, and require various maintenance and servicing activity. The result is, typical windmills produce roughly twice the CO2 per kWhr as do nuclear stations. This is before the provision of backup power, and the consideration of extra grid capability that is required by a diffuse intermittent power source.

    That’s right. Windmills increase CO2 output and increase the cost. And they insert even more government interference into an already heavily government-interfered-with industry.

    Achieving nothing would be a very great improvement.

    Reply

    Bubba Cow

    August 27, 2015 at 9:01 am

    fyi (not sure of accuracy, but makes sense) –

    http://stopthesethings.com/2014/08/16/how-much-co2-gets-emitted-to-build-a-wind-turbine/

    From

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/08/27/wednesday-wit-josh-on-yet-more-wasted-green/

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  • #
    pat

    unbelievable!

    Newcastle Council to divest from fossil fuels but takes coal cash
    The Australian has learned the council accepted a $12 million offer from Port Waratah Coal Services as part of plans to build a fourth coal terminal in the Port of Newcastle …
    The Australian – 44 mins ago

    27 Sug: Australian Financial Review: More councils consider stand against fossil fuels
    by Amanda Saunders and Jemima Whyte
    City of Melbourne, Albury City Council and Mount Alexander council, in the Victorian goldfields region, will review whether to divest or pull money from institutions, including the big four banks, that fund fossil fuels projects.
    Newcastle, home of the world’s biggest coal port, became the country’s seventh council to shun fossil fuels…
    The City of Newcastle Council voted on Tuesday night to pull money from the big four banks and invest in more “environmentally and socially responsible” financial institutions whenever its term deposits come up for renewal…
    Moral high ground
    Community groups and anti-coal activists have been in talks with staff and councillors at City of Melbourne, City of Sydney and City of Perth, as well as the Blue Mountains City Council, Albury City Council, and Mount Alexander shire…
    Isaac Astill, a divestment campaigner at activist group 350.org, said it was community groups “working one-one-one that had got the councils across the line”…
    http://www.afr.com/business/mining/westpac-chairman-lindsay-maxsted-says-divestment-illadvised-20150826-gj8puv

    26 Aug: SMH: Peter Hannam/Melissa Grant: Newcastle, home to world’s biggest coal port, moves to curb fossil fuel links
    Newcastle City Council on Tuesday voted 6-5 to alter its policies to steer its $270 million in funds into banks involved in “environmentally and socially responsible investments” and avoid those in “harmful activities”, such as greenhouse gas pollution…
    Declan Clausen, a Labor councillor who brought the motion to council, said the move would send a signal that it was time for the city to diversify away from coal…
    Brad Luke, a Liberal councillor, described the move as “incredible”, and one that “would punish the biggest employer in the region” and the unions.
    “It sends a signal that Newcastle Council does not support the creation of jobs in this area,” Cr Luke said. “It will take Newcastle back to the Stone Age.”
    Therese Doyle, a Greens councillor, dismissed the criticism.
    “It is coal that will send us back to the Stone Age,” Ms Doyle said. “It’s very clear that we need to get out of fossil fuels.”…
    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/newcastle-home-to-worlds-biggest-coal-port-moves-to-curb-fossil-fuel-links-20150825-gj7sj7.html

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    pat

    well-known fact: “Queensland Labor backs Adani’s Carmichael coal project” – SMH,July 2015

    so why this dangerous game tht’s being played out in the MSM by the Treasurer?

    27 Aug: SMH: I’m not downplaying mining: Qld treasurer
    Queensland Treasurer Curtis Pitt insists he is not downplaying the importance of the planned Carmichael coalmine, despite his comments that it isn’t the “be-all and end-all” for the state’s economy.
    Mr Pitt said the government supports the development of the Galilee Basin, which would be unlocked by Indian giant Adani’s $16.5 billion project.
    However, he told News Limited the belief that it would single-handedly rescue Queensland’s economy was dangerous.
    “It shouldn’t be suggested in any way that I’m downplaying the importance,” Mr Pitt told ABC Radio on Thursday.
    “If it does not happen – and there are a range of reasons why that may not happen – it shouldn’t be viewed as a kick in the guts for the state.”…
    Mr Pitt’s comments were welcomed by the Australian Marine Conservation Society…
    http://www.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/im-not-downplaying-mining-qld-treasurer-20150827-41qbk.html

    27 Aug: ABC: Ben Oquist: Summit stuck in the past on climate-economy link
    (Ben Oquist is the Executive Director at The Australia Institute and was one of the invitees to yesterday’s Reform Summit.)
    How can a serious national economic reform summit entirely fail to grapple with the economic opportunities afforded by energy modernisation, renewables, and the transition away from coal?…
    Queensland Treasurer Curtis Pitt knows it better than many, and yet he was not present at this week’s National Reform Summit – a meeting of business, union and community leaders to discuss the reforms needed to grow the economy.
    It is a shame, as he could have brought a perspective missing from too much of the reform summit. The Treasurer recognises that there is more to Queensland than the carbon deposits underneath it, and to overplay the significance of mining’s economic contribution would be “dangerous” to the state’s economic prosperity…
    The transformation of our energy sector in the face of climate change – let alone the changes already under way in our transport, agriculture and land sector – presents a massive growth opportunity that must first be recognised before it is seized…
    Bill Shorten and Ross Garnaut made strong, clear-headed efforts to detail the link between the economy and the climate. Former Treasury head Martin Parkinson called the outlook for Australia’s thermal coal exports one of the riskiest areas for the economy.
    I pushed from the floor in the first session. But certain vested business interests resisted…
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-27/oquist-summit-stuck-in-the-past-on-climate-economy-link/6729174

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    Neville

    The ABC’s Robyn Williams is in error by more than 99 metres in his SLR estimates following his 2007 interview with the Bolter.
    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/robyn_williams_wonders_why_we_dont_trust_his_science/
    But a number of the recent PR SLR studies forecast just 6 or 7 inches of SLR by 2100. IOW not even as high as the SLR over the previous 100 years.
    So where is their post 1950 hyped up CAGW?

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    David Maddison

    For consistency can we agree on which spelling we use for participants at The United Nations Climate Change Conference, COP21 or CMP11 in Paris.

    Is it Paris-site, Parisite, Parissite, Paris-ite or just plain Parasite? :-)

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    David Maddison

    The other day I purchased some lawn fertiliser. Some brands were advertised as carbon neutral but naturally, I chose one that wasn’t.

    161

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      David Maddison

      Hey RED THUMB TROLL, why don’t you explain to us your evidence for CAGW? Your silence is deafening.

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    Safetyguy66

    Another little step on the road to an international system for persecuting sovereign nations on whatever topic eurocrats feel like pursuing.

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    ianl8888

    A dismal thread …

    but the theme is accurate, in my view. The weight of propaganda is increasingly enormous, as expected

    There has never been public comment on the detail of replacement fuel sources for base load (ie. how many GWh of reliable, affordable power from wind, solar etc), just constant repetition of motherhood statements. We’ve tried to get direct statements for this for over 20 years now. It’s obvious that no comment is the constant, courageous reply

    The power won’t be reduced instantaneously, just in brown-out stages so that eventually the populace grudgingly comes to accept it. Visible public utilities such as hospitals will be run on diesel generators, as will less visible organisations like various govt levels. Water supply pumps, ATM’s and associated monetary computers will be savagely reduced – and the list is endless

    The contemporaneous version of 1984 …

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    handjive

    Obama said that?

    youtube, Published on Aug 27, 2015
    Full video: Obama speaks in New Orleans 10 years after Hurricane Katrina

    @11.35: “And what started out as a natural disaster became a man-made disaster.”
    ~~ ~
    Hurricane Katrina a “natural disaster”?

    SkepticalScience: One of the criticisms directed towards Al Gore’s An Inconvenient Truth is that he claims Hurricane Katrina was caused by global warming.

    Gore never actually says this and it’s useful to look at his exact words as it brings up two broader questions …

    However, the general thrust of Al Gore’s words are correct in that warmer water causes stronger hurricanes.
    He clearly doesn’t say that Hurricane Katrina was caused by global warming but that warmer waters intensified it.
    All in all, he scores a pass mark with the way he handles hurricanes with a few marks off for not being clearer on hurricane frequency.
    . . .
    That truth seems inconvenient for someone.

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    • #
      ianl8888


      … warmer water causes stronger hurricanes

      Warmer than when ?

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      Greg Cavanagh

      How could a natural disaster become a manmade disaster?

      Granted the way we handle the disaster could be disastrous, but that doesn’t mean the natural disaster “be turned into” a manmade disaster. The two events are related but separate.

      They just want to blame man for the initial event.

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      • #
        gai

        Greg Cavanagh asks “How could a natural disaster become a manmade disaster?”

        Thanks to FEMA!

        In news coverage of this tragedy, the most significant events often were buried beneath a blanket of heart-wrenching stories of personal survival, scenes of awesome destruction, reports of looting, and interviews with experts. However, the key to understanding can be found in the following list of news headlines, most of which did not make it into mainstream coverage. These reports make it clear that the government did not fail to respond in a timely fashion. The problem was that it did respond – but in such a way as to actually hinder rescue operations. There were too many instances for this to be merely a mistake or a bureaucratic snafu. There is a clear pattern here that cannot be denied….

        So what is going on here? Were agents of the federal government trying to kill American citizens? Were they trying to obtain the maximum death toll and the highest level of human suffering? It would seem that way at first, but I would like to suggest that this incredible behavior stems from something else – something equally unsettling.

        The only legitimate function of government is to protect the lives, liberty, and property of its citizens. In New Orleans, however, it was clear that the primary job of the military, FEMA, and Homeland Security was, not to protect citizens, but to protect the government and keep it functioning…
        LINK

        The article contains links to many news stories backing up the author’s thesis.

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    KinkyKeith

    The ratepayers of Newcastle have been bullied again with a massive increase in rates just implemented and now we are being told that the spare cash ?????????? (more on that later) held by NCC is to be divested from the dreaded institutions which support and aid Coal Mining into more appropriate areas.

    NCC recently put up rates because they had no money and now it seems there is a cool couple of hundred mill invested in dirty coal.

    Something is rotten in the state of Denmark methinks.

    http://www.theherald.com.au/story/3308907/newcastle-councils-coal-war-vote/?cs=305

    GeorgeJ has also had a say:

    “The Bishop of Newcastle has designated Climate Change as a religious issue,
    and in that he is entirely correct because it is only a religious matter.

    There is absolutely no scientific basis to say that man made CO2 can in any
    way alter the Earth’s climate; the whole thing is a scientific farce.

    In this matter we have the uneducated leading the vulnerable who are
    genuinely looking for a better future and the real issues like real pollution
    get left for tomorrow.

    Why is there no action on restoring ugly used mine sites in our valley,
    mining companies are obliged, on paper at least, to restore mined areas but
    because of poor oversight by Government, this is “forgotten”.

    There are so many REAL pollution issues like mine sites and the Hunter river
    which suffered a serious breach when the unsupervised dredging let loose a
    massive amount of toxic chemicals during preparation for the last coal loader.

    I am not against coal, it is the only real source of power to generate electricity
    but mining companies must be responsible in their actions and so must our
    Council.”

    KK

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    pat

    28 Aug: SMH: Katie Burgess: Former EU climate action commissioner: ‘The future belongs to renewables’
    Praise for the ACT government’s 100 per cent renewable energy target by 2025 has come from the highest authority – the European Union’s first commissioner for climate action…
    Ms Hedegaard said the renewables sector added half a million jobs to the European economy during their severe economic crisis…
    “I think maybe contrary to the Australian debate, in Europe it seems people realise that continuing business as usual doesn’t come for free – it comes with a price tag in the form of more climate change, more need for adaptation which is also costly.”…
    Environment minister Simon Corbell said Denmark’s influence in the international uptake of large-scale renewable energy generation has been significant…
    And by calling for bids in a second wind auction which could power up to 106,000 Canberra homes, he said the government is also on schedule to meet its target of 80 per cent renewables by 2018…
    http://www.smh.com.au/act-news/former-eu-climate-action-commissioner-the-future-belongs-to-renewables-20150827-gj9fsg.html

    27 Aug: EcoNews: David Twomey: Hollande: climate accord ‘impossible without financial commitments’
    President Hollande said there will be no agreement at the international climate conference in Paris in December if industrialised countries do not pay the €100 billion needed annually to finance the transition to renewable energy in developing countries.
    “If we are to succeed in Paris it will require not only political commitment, but also financing,” he said in a speech to French ambassadors meeting in Paris, according to a report from the French news service RFI.
    The pledge to raise that amount of money annually by 2020 “was a promise that already has not been kept,” President Hollande said.
    ***“It is now a requirement. Without 100 billion, there will be no deal in Paris.”…
    http://econews.com.au/47886/hollande-climate-accord-impossible-without-financial-commitments/

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    Eugene WR Gallun

    Paris-ites = parasites

    God, but I wished I was the one to have said that.

    Eugene WR Gallun

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    pat

    messages about climate change that resonate throughout the Australian ***media***!
    at least they didn’t say “Australian population”.

    Facebook: Embassy of Denmark in Australia
    Former EU Commissioner and Danish Minister Connie Hedegaard is in Australia, conveying messages about climate change that resonate throughout the Australian ***media…
    In Sydney, Connie Hedegaard met Danish and Australian companies in the green tech sector and spoke with great success to an audience of ***over 2.400 participants at the 2015 Sydney Citytalk…
    https://www.facebook.com/dkinaus

    ***first & only reference I’ve seen to the size of the Sydney Town Hall audience, but still haven’t found a single pic of this audience online! every picture tells a story, so would have thought we’d have seen quite a few by now. guess the planet-saving narcissists on stage were only interested in pics of themselves. there’s a few of those around.

    27 Aug: Clover Moore,Lord Mayor of the City of Sydney: The Truth the Telegraph Won’t Print: City Photographers
    In today’s Daily Telegraph, “Clover Moore spending $80,000 in taxpayers’ money on her own team of photographers” (LINK), I’m accused of using public money to hire a personal photographer.
    The Telegraph has once again deliberately contorted the facts. The City of Sydney is hiring a photographer to capture events and projects to promote the work the City does – not for my personal benefit…
    The Telegraph seems to be particularly interested in one line in the tender documents for the role, which says the photographer should: “only submit imagery that has been edited, colour-balanced, retouched and has all necessary metadata fields completed”.
    This too is standard practice…
    http://clovermoore.com.au/the-truth-the-telegraph-wont-print-city-photographers/

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    pat

    ***everything indicates this year will be even warmer, says Fabius…except for “everything” that doesn’t:

    26 Aug: Reuters: John Irish: U.N. chief urges world leaders to speed up climate talks
    United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon urged world leaders on Wednesday to look beyond their national interests and make sure a global deal to fight climate change is agreed at talks in Paris this year…
    “I hope negotiators and ministers (will) look beyond their national interests which is why I’m asking world leaders to give a clear message to their negotiators that they should accelerate this negotiation.”…
    Just over 50 countries have so far made pledges, although French officials have said they are confident the final offers will cover 90 percent of the world’s emissions…
    Senior officials meet in Bonn, Germany, from Aug 31 to Sept. 4 to try to move things forward before a ministerial meeting in Paris on Sept. 6 as they look to get a consensus on all issues between the 196 parties.
    Fabius said he wanted negotiators to whittle down the draft to just 20 pages by mid-October…
    “We have to speed things up. It’s a race against the clock. Last year was the warmest ever and ***everything indicates this year will be even warmer,” Fabius said.
    http://news.yahoo.com/u-n-chief-urges-world-leaders-speed-climate-163432618.html

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    pat

    stay where u r, Naomi, & save all those jet-setting CO2 emissions:

    27 Aug: Guardian: Oliver Milman: Naomi Klein on climate change: ‘I thought it best to write about my own raw terror’
    A Q&A with the bestselling author before her visits to Melbourne and Sydney
    Oliver Milman: You write in the book that you were a “climate denier”, not in that you denied the science but that you just didn’t want to engage on the subject. Why did you, and others, do this, do you think?
    Naomi Klein: There are so many reasons, most of us tell ourselves multiple different stories each day. I’m flying to Australia so, just to get through the day, I’ll have to engage in climate denial. It’s just that I’m in a lot less denial than I used to be…
    Milman: Did your interaction with (well-funded climate change denial movement) the Heartland Institute disturb you?
    Klein: I don’t know if it was weirder than a Republican party convention or Donald Trump leading in the polls, really.
    I find it harder to deal with an UN negotiator who knows the science and chooses to do nothing. I find that more troubling than the Heartland crowd…
    Milman: So what needs to replace it (capitalism)?
    Klein: We know what we need to do now. We have the policies that could get us there, things that won’t overthrow capitalism, such as a carbon tax, a revolution in renewables. My book is why we aren’t doing that and the ideological scaffolding behind that…
    (Naomi Klein is appearing at the Melbourne writers festival on 29 August and at the Festival of Dangerous Ideas in Sydney on 5 September)
    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/aug/27/naomi-klein-on-climate-change-i-thought-it-best-to-write-about-my-own-raw-terror

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    pat

    audio: Yale’s Anthony Leiserowitz presents Ramanathan’s views, including that the need to address CC must be preached in every church, synagogue, temple & mosque & all other religious faiths:

    AUDIO: 27 Aug: Yale Climate News: Scientist Helps Faith Communities Engage Climate Change
    A leading climate scientist is working with religious leaders from different faiths
    What will it take to motivate the public to address climate change?
    V. Ramanathan of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography believes it will require a three-pronged approach. He says the first two, science and governance, are already well established on this issue.
    RAMANATHAN: “The missing third leg is the role of faith and religion.”…
    RAMANATHAN: “Neither scientists, nor technologists, nor our national leaders have that authority. But faith leaders, and religious leaders have that authority. We have not so far seen the value faith and religion brings to the table in solving environmental problems.”…

    http://www.yaleclimateconnections.org/2015/08/scientist-helps-faith-communities-engage-climate-change/

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    pat

    links to the statement by this pretentious lot…in French, naturellement…Clive Hamilton, (philosophe) the only Australian I noticed among the “high-profile” signatories at end of statement. Monbiot makes it too:

    26 Aug: Guardian: Emma Howard: Tutu, Klein and Chomsky call for mass climate action ahead of Paris conference
    Artists, journalists, scientists and academics among 100 signatories calling for mobilisation on scale of slavery abolition and anti-apartheid movements
    Desmond Tutu, Vivienne Westwood, Naomi Klein and Noam Chomsky are among a group of high-profile figures who will issue a mass call to action on Thursday ahead of the UN’s crunch climate change conference in Paris in December…
    Their statement, published in the book Stop Climate Crimes, reads: “We are at a crossroads. We do not want to be compelled to survive in a world that has been made barely liveable for us … slavery and apartheid did not end because states decided to abolish them…
    Bill McKibben, founder of environmental movement 350.org, which has launched the project with the anti-globalisation organisation Attac France, described the move as a “good first step” towards Paris…
    In an essay on how climate change is impacting Africa, the Nigerian environmental activist Nnimmo Bassey writes: “Temperature rises pose universal problems to the whole world, but more so for Africa. This is so because Africa has 50% higher temperatures than the global average … burning Africa is what is at stake.”
    Elsewhere, climatologist Valérie Masson-Delmotte and member of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Jean Jouzel write on the current state of the science…
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/aug/26/campaigners-mass-climate-action-paris-conference-noam-chomsky

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    Greg Cavanagh

    “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” Mahatma Gandhi

    It looks like we are up to the Fight stage.

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    pat

    27 Aug: Canberra Times: Heath Aston: Crossbench senators slam Greens over environment law phone campaign
    EXCLUSIVE: The novice leadership team of the Greens has made a potentially damaging tactical blunder after party members “bombarded” crossbench senators with phone calls urging them to oppose the Abbott government’s legal attack on environment groups.
    Senator Jacqui Lambie claims her office was “sabotaged” at the instruction of Greens leader Richard Di Natale, while Senator John Madigan is so infuriated with the “tsunami of calls” he received he will investigate whether telephone harassment by a rival political party constitutes contempt of the Senate.
    On Wednesday last week, Senator Madigan’s staff were forced to redirect all calls to his Victorian electorate office after the Parliament office was deluged by Greens rank and file. His office stopped logging calls after 300 were received.
    Senator Ricky Muir’s staff received at least 200 before diverting calls – including critical communication with Coalition ministers – to an answering service…
    She asked members to “make sure you are always polite” but what angered Senator Madigan the most was the inclusion of an email link for members to report back directly to Mr Di Natale with details of the names of crossbench staffers and any intelligence they had gathered on which way a senator might vote on the government’s proposed changes to the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act.
    “I am writing to Senator Di Natalie to request that he share with me the information about my office and my staff he has covertly collected,” Senator Madigan said.
    “And I am investigating whether this is a breach of parliamentary privilege…
    Senator Muir said: “Imagine the reaction of the Greens if the Attorney-General [George Brandis] directed the Minerals Councils and other supporters of mining to bombard my office and report back on how we responded?”…
    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/crossbench-senators-slam-greens-over-environment-law-phone-campaign-20150827-gj99cc.html

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    pat

    28 Aug: ABC Breakfast: Science with Chris Smith: carbon dioxide photosynthesis
    Imagine if carbon dioxide emissions could be captured, and then with the help of sunlight, turned into useful products like biodegradable plastics, or even other fuel sources.
    That concept may not be far away from reality, after scientists created a system that emulates the photosynthesis process that occurs in leaves.
    With more, RN Breakfast’s science correspondent Chris Smith joins Fran Kelly with latest news from the world of science.
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/science-with-chris-smith-carbon-dioxide/6731748

    May2014: ABC: Anna Salleh: Artificial photosynthesis gets a boost
    A new thin-film coating made from titanium dioxide could convert sunlight to a zero-emission fuel more efficiently.
    The findings, from a paper in this week’s issue of Science, bring the dream of artificial photosynthesis one step closer, says author Nathan Lewis, a chemistry professor, specialising in solar fuels at Caltech…
    http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/05/30/4013869.htm

    Jan 2013: ABC: Scientists mimic plants to make zero-carbon fuel
    “We will build a system for artificial photosynthesis by placing tiny solar panels on microbes,” says lead researcher Julea Butt at the University of East Anglia (UEA)…
    http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/01/21/3673477.htm

    16 April: Berkeley Lab: Major Advance in Artificial Photosynthesis Poses Win/Win for the Environment
    Berkeley Lab Researchers Perform Solar-powered Green Chemistry with Captured CO2
    “We believe our system is a revolutionary leap forward in the field of artificial photosynthesis,” says Peidong Yang, a chemist with Berkeley Lab’s Materials Sciences Division and one of the leaders of this study. “Our system has the potential to fundamentally change the chemical and oil industry in that we can produce chemicals and fuels in a totally renewable way, rather than extracting them from deep below the ground.”…
    http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2015/04/16/major-advance-in-artificial-photosynthesis/

    ABC: Coal warning to Canberra from Danish climate campaigner
    Listen to Connie Hedegaard with Linda Mottram here:
    http://blogs.abc.net.au/nsw/2015/08/coal-warning-to-canberra-from-danish-climate-campaigner.html

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    pat

    didn’t mean to post all the stuff in the last comment. was just noting how Fran’s Breakfast today was pushing the artificial photosynthesis story again, as ABC has done regularly over the years.

    yet it hasn’t been in the news since the Berkeley story in April.
    never mind, Fran will always find some way to include a CAGW story on a daily basis. CAGW-infested Naked Scientists, which airs & repeats on ABC weekly, is an easy way to do it on this occasion. so few topics on these morning news & current affairs programs, but for Fran, there’s time for the same ol CAGW propaganda every day.

    no surprise to Linda Mottram gave Hedegaard another platform to push her agenda on taxpayer-funded ABC.

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    handjive

    Spot the faux outrage.

    Border Force: Operation Fortitude cancelled as protesters take to Melbourne’s CBD streets (the age, 28 August, 2015)

    Where were these protestors when Minister for Home Affairs, Brendan O’Connor, today announced significant administrative reforms to the Australian Federal Police (AFP) as part of the government’s response to the Federal Audit of Police Capabilities … including “criminal law enforcement in business regulation; and support to the enforcement of the anticipated Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.
    . . .
    I DO NOT support this and will not defend Abbott, but, where were these protestors when it was ok for carbon(sic) police to randomly knock on citizens doors to enforce carbon(sic) rationing?

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      Another Ian

      handjive

      Sometimes (seems to me) that survival of the fittest means going with the least worst option.

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    David Maddison

    We need to establish a database of products (and possibly a certification scheme) for which a lot of CO2 has been produced in their production so that carbon-aware consumers like us can buy them and be assured that they have contributed to the production of life-giving CO2 for the environment. Low carbon or “carbon-neutral” products mean death (in many more ways than one)!

    As an example. I only want to consume fossil fuel made electricity, I don’t want any “green” energy coming to my home. I want to be able to buy electricity guaranteed to come only from fossil, hydro or nuclear (nuclear not an option in Australia and hydro is OK too as it is tightly integrated with fossil production and lots of CO2 gets made in decomposing detritus at the bottom of dam pondage). People can choose to buy only dirty power from wind and solar, why can’t I buy only clean fossil or hydro power?

    I mentioned earlier how I bought lawn fertiliser that was not “carbon neutral”, there needs to be more consumer awareness as to how they can buy high CO2 production products.

    (NOTE TO PEDANTS: I know the electricity that comes to my home doesn’t know where it came from, but when talking about buying dirty alternate energy or clean energy, consumption is about the total allocation of such production, not about having two separate grids to guarantee power sourced from one type of production or another…)

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    Another Ian

    If you weren’t already terrified then try this

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2015/08/ready-for-chang.html#comments

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    bit chilly

    i live in the uk and happen to know two royal society fellows . i will be having some words .

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    A note from the new home of the our favourite Lewpaper producer:

    Scientists Replicated 100 Psychology Studies, and Fewer Than Half Got the Same Results

    According to work presented today in Science, fewer than half of 100 studies published in 2008 in three top psychology journals could be replicated successfully. The international effort included 270 scientists who re-ran other people’s studies as part of The Reproducibility Project: Psychology, led by Brian Nosek of the University of Virginia.

    Gets better …

    “Scientific evidence does not rely on trusting the authority of the person who made the discovery,” team member Angela Attwood, a psychology professor at the University of Bristol, said in a statement “Rather, credibility accumulates through independent replication and elaboration of the ideas and evidence.”

    Applications for “fly on the wall” for when Angela Attwood meets Stephan Lewandowsky?? (Dr Lew. is currently in Royal Society funded exile from UWA at the University of Bristol.)

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    Rollo

    A disturbing arrogant footnote within Samuel Johnson’s study:

    There is no reason, in principle, why defectors should not be able to retaliate by punishing the punishers. However, since the focus here is on situations where all players recognise the collective benefits of cooperation, as in the case of global warming, we shall leave this possibility unexplored.

    So there you go. Catastrophists are right and sceptics are wrong, it’s as simple as that.

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    michael hart

    “the mechanism works best if the players are somewhat irrational”

    I’d be tempted to ask him “How irrational would you like?”

    10