JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

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Weekend Unthreaded, 7.8 out of 10 based on 25 ratings

Tiny Url for this post: http://tinyurl.com/ktmv84q

149 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    toorightmate

    I went to the Pilbara in 1975.
    Winds near the centre of category 3, 4 and 5 cyclones were then forecast to be “strong”.
    In 1990′s, these same winds became “very strong”.
    About 2007, these same winds became “devastating”.
    About 2012, the same winds became “catastrophic”.
    I shudder to think what they may become in the future!!!!!

    330

    • #
      Kevin Lohse

      There you are! Proof positive that cyclones are getting stronger!
      just in case, /sarc

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      • #
        Bones

        Who would have thought Kevin,cyclonic evolution.Perhaps this could become the latest in scientific study,do you think grants would be available from prof turkey or lord flimflam.

        10

    • #
      Snafu

      It’s the same with summer ‘heat’.

      Back when I was a wee tacker in the 70′s and it was above 30-35C (regularly), it was called hot. Now it seems to be ‘extreme heat’. Yes, we did have heatwaves of temps above 35C…nearly every summer….same as now. What really peeved me off last week, was that according to the some of the weather presenters, Adelaide (or Melbourne)? was to experience a ‘mini-heatwave’……. ‘What the…!’ You either have a heatwave or you don’t!

      P.S. Location; Newcastle, NSW. Have lived here all my life….52 years.

      30

    • #
      Winston

      I think what you’re suggesting is that to work at the BOM, the most important tool of the trade is a very up to date, comprehensive and authoritative thesaurus.

      20

      • #
        Snafu

        It reminds me of the old Claytons slogan; ‘The drink you have when you’re not having a drink’

        Mini Heatwave – The heatwave you have, when you’re not having a heatwave.

        P.S. some of you youngens may have too Google Claytons.

        10

  • #
    Turtle of WA

    First!

    11

  • #
    Graeme No.3

    If you have cow herders why don’t you have sheep flockers?

    Thinking(?) about the above reminds me of a flock of sheep being rounded up and sent in the right direction by dogs barking threats and biting those that don’t behave as wanted.

    Instead of Warmists (who call us Deniers) couldn’t we call those who flock to the IPCC standard SHEEPFLOCKERS?

    130

    • #
      David

      If you have cow herders why don’t you have sheep flockers

      There are but they are mostly in New Zealand. I think that’s what they said it was.

      :-)

      40

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      I was on a high country station in Otago, visiting a mate o’ mine, who took me out the back, to see his sheep.

      Well one o’ ‘em alpine storms came in, and the rain was so ‘eavy you couldn’ see yer boots fillin’ wi’ water.

      Me mate looked at me, looked at the storm, looked at the sheep, looked back at me, and said, “Lets get the flock outta’ here.

      80

    • #
      Andrew McRae

      We have other kinds of flockers and they cost taxpayers very little to “service”.

      30

    • #
      Kevin Lohse

      The flockers are known as shepherds.

      10

    • #
      Roy Hogue

      Since the subject has come up, are we now allowed to refer to warmists as those “flocking warmists”?

      It seems like such a logical extension of the term. ;-)

      20

  • #
    Joe Lalonde

    I have been hearing weird things that are trying to keep the economic engine groaning and grinding along…

    China has been shipping the same filled containers back and forth as moving cargo on their books even though they don’t unload it…
    Coffee Speculators have been storing coffee in storage houses to make the price increase…
    Aluminum suppliers have been moving their wares from the front of the storage building to the back in order to have low stocks and jack prices…

    There’s gotta be a ton more stories

    40

    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Once upon a time, there was a poor Southern Irish pig breeder, who could barely make a living, by breeding pigs.

      But every morning, he would go outside, and look at his pigs, and the ones that weren’t farrowing, he loaded into his truck, drove out of his gate, up the road and across the border with Northern Ireland.

      He would then drive about twenty miles on the northern side of the border, and then drive his pigs back over the border at a different town, and took them home.

      After lunch, he would repeat the whole exercise. You may be wondering why?

      Well, Southern Ireland – Eire – was one of the first countries to join the European Union, well before the time when the UK joined. So to take them across the border he had to obtain an export certificate, for the number of pigs on the truck, when he crossed the border.

      Bureaucrats in Brussels, gave exporters subsidies for exported goods, and pigs attracted quite a generous subsidy. So much so, that the farmer was able to increase the size of his piggery, and get a much larger truck, that could carry more pigs, and hence earned the farmer a much bigger subsidy. This got to the point where he finally bought another piggery, and an articulated truck and trailer unit, for cross-border pig shipments.

      This continued for some time, until some enterprising busybody in Brussels noticed that the monthly export of pigs from Eire was more than the total number of pigs in the country, and raised the alarm. However rules are rules, and there was nothing they could legally do within the existing regulations to stop the practice, which by then had spread to several other pig breeders.

      Finally the matter was resolved when the UK joined the EU, and as a consequence, the lucrative Irish Pig Breeding Industry collapsed.

      To encourage trade, the Eurocrats offered financial incentives to people exporting from the EU to other countries.

      250

      • #
        Eddie Sharpe

        Reminds me of the story of Richard Branson taking boxes of records on a trips across the English Channel , by his own account, avoiding taxes and selling them as ‘Imports’ when they came back.

        20

      • #
        MervS

        Very similar to Major Major Major in Catch 22. And the bounty to not grow alfalfa. With the bounty he was paid he bought more land to not grow alfalfa on. He became the biggest non grower of alfalfa in the country.

        10

        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          Such a great book.

          00

        • #
          Eddie Sharpe

          I must admit I haven’t read it. As you describe the payments for non-production, non-provision & non-performance, it seems surely something worthy of the UN.
          The EU is similar with its payments to Scottish Landowners, many of them Continental Barons & Counts, not to plant trees on bleak Scottish moors.

          10

    • #

      Last week I went in to a Nursery Supply business during a visit to Perth where I had been 10 years previously. The sign was still out the front but a gas and oil drilling business occupied the premises instead. No signs, but they had been there nearly 10 years. Keeps the Greens off their backs it seems.

      50

  • #
    Joe Lalonde

    Jo,

    Economics is gonna get very interesting this year…
    People are slowly waking up to how screwed they are in a system that is stacked against them.
    Propaganda at it’s finest with government collusion.

    60

    • #
      Bones

      Joe,its not only economics that will get interesting,unions will be in for a sweaty time as well.Union people in trouble also means labor and gangreen in the poo as well.May be very uplifting.Could lead to a lot of trough draining.Also,why are the save our shark protesters not standing in the water,where is their commitment to their cause,maybe they like sharks,just not that much.

      80

  • #
    RoHa

    I still say it is time for an updated “Sceptic’s case”, using all the latest data and failed predictions.

    110

    • #
      Joe Lalonde

      Especially the one where the Arctic will be totally Ice free by 2013…

      100

    • #
      Andrew McRae

      The updated climate skeptic summary could be done as a comedy documentary in the same styles as Michael Moore’s “Bowling For Columbine”, Louis Theroux’s “Weird Weekends”, or Ben Stein’s “No Intelligence Allowed”. Something which presents facts and the words of key players in a tongue-in-cheek manner.

      You could call it… “There’s Something About Scary”.

      (I predict other title nominations will now pour in…)

      50

  • #

    I know that even the mention of Nuclear Power here in Australia is a totally redundant argument, because even I’m confident enough to think that there won’t be any of them here for at least another 20 years, if that.

    However, I would like to point something out, with the comment that maybe the U.S. was lucky to actually to build the things when they did, and, probably more importantly there is one particular thing I would like to show you with respect to Wind Power.

    The last of the existing Nukes came on line in 1977, so every nuclear power plant in the U.S. all 65 of them, (with 100 reactors, 65 x PWR and 35 x BWR) with a Nameplate Capacity of 107,000MW, are now older than at least 37 years, incidentally 12 years longer than any wind tower will ever last, at the most hoped for best case scenario. The average age of all those Nuclear Power Plants is now approaching 45 years.

    They’ve just been humming along, year after year after year, delivering absolutely humungous amounts of power, 19 to 20% of all U.S. generated power, from just those 65 plants, 37 of them having 2 units at each plant.

    The killer point in their favour is the Capacity Factor, the amount of power generated for consumption versus the Nameplate Capacity. For these plants, even now, they are running at a CF of 89%, this year, and there have been three or four years when that CF for ALL the plants has been up at 91 and 92%.

    These U.S. plants are without the slightest fraction of doubt the best operating Nuclear power plants on Planet Earth, and in fact, also without doubt, the safest.

    Because they have been in operation for so long now, the Americans have got that operation down to the finest of arts. All the maintenance closure periods are scheduled for plant refuelling periods, and again, here, the Americans have this also down to a fine art.

    With judicious use of the rod assemblies, they can now extend most refuelling periods out to around 18 Months. Keep in mind that nearly every one of these plants operates 2 reactors, so that effectively means a refuelling every 9 Months, first one unit, and then 9 Months later, the second unit.

    In fact, (and I’ve mentioned this before, but this time I want to show you something) there was one Unit at the Diablo Canyon plant at Avila Beach near San Luis Obispo in California that, (as with most units at these plants) ran continuously from one refuel to the next, a full 18 Months, constantly. Now, that period encompassed a full 12 Month reporting period, and during those 12 Months, that Unit delivered its power at a CF of just under 102%, delivering more power than the specifications for the generator.

    It’s an easy thing to say, rolling off the tongue like that, 102%.

    This unit was run up after the refuel, and then run down for the next refuel, 18 months later. The reactor process boiled the water to pressurise the next stage to drive the turbine which then drove the generator. That generator is a 1,120MW generator, a huge thing. What was being driven by the turbine was the rotor of that generator, a complex construction of huge permanent magnets surrounded by wiring, all laid out along the shaft, a typical series of huge electromagmnets. All up, this rotor weighs in the vicinity of a thousand or more TONS. Now the turbine is driving that, making that rotor rotate at 3,600RPM (U.S. Power is at 60 Hz) so that’s rotating more than a thousand tons at 60 rotations a second ….. for 18 months continuously.

    Over that 12 Month reporting period, this ONE generator delivered just slightly less than 10TeraWattHours (TWH) of Power to the California grid.

    Here’s the point I wanted to show you.

    Australia currently has 2660MW in Nameplate Capacity for wind power, and that totals out at around 1,200 of those huge towers. In any 12 Month period, all that wind will deliver just slightly less than 7TWH

    So, here you have ONE generator and that delivered 42% more power in 12 Months than 1,200 Wind tower generators.

    Now, I know that it could be construed that I am somehow making a false comparison, because there’s no way we will have Nuclear power here in Australia, but consider how much all those wind plants have cost, around half of that cost funded by the taxpayer.

    Those new Chinese USC coal fired plants can drive 1,200MW generators, previously only the province of those huge Nukes. They are also running at a CF approaching that of these U.S. nukes.

    Tony.

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    • #

      I hope you don’t mind Tony, I borrowed this for a http://pindanpost.com/2014/02/01/billions-of-dollars-for-nothing/ comment on a recent post that was re-blogged by Tallbloke on renewable energy that has attracted some arguments.

      50

      • #

        Hey Tom, I have no problem at all with that.

        It’s just information really.

        That’s the joy of a site like Joanne’s here. I used to go to a lot of sites and do this sort of thing, but the time commitment to something like that became pretty large.

        So now, I can just place that information at my own site, where most of it already is, in one form or another, and also here at Joanne’s site, and I can rest assured that others will take in the information and possibly spread it around. I know it sounds a little mercenary of me, but information like this is something which everyone needs to see, mainly to point out the absolute dearth of correct information that people just blindly accept as being truth.

        Take the article at this link for example, which equates a Nuclear Power plant to 1000MW, hence that Nameplate Capacity he says equates to 60 Nuclear Power plants. The average Nameplate Capacity for a typical 2 unit Nuke is 2000MW+, so even then, this 60,000MW for wind only equates to 30 Plants at best ….. with respect to NAMEPLATE CAPACITY only. He says 60 Nukes equivalent and there’s only 65 of them in the U.S.

        However, when it comes to actual power being generated for delivery to the grids for consumption, the power generated by wind is the same as generated and delivered by just 9 Nuclear power plants. All those Nukes deliver their power 24/7/365. Wind, at a CF of barely 25% across the whole U.S. then that’s the equivalent of delivering their full rated power from wind for just 6 hours a day.

        Wind in the U.S. has a total Capacity of 60,000MW, and yet is still only generating just on 3% of power actually delivered for consumption.

        The average punter would read something like that article and think it’s time to shut down traditional power plants, because wind has become so huge, when in actual fact it’s really puny.

        Tony.

        130

        • #
          Greebo

          Tony, I had an interesting ‘discussion’ today with a younger man (40ish) about renewables and RETs. This bloke is sharp enough to cut himself, and ‘debate’ is not what happens, as he can speak as fast as he thinks, and I cannot.
          I stated that I despise subsidy of renewables at the level we see today, and the human cost of such subsidies and policies. He argued back that we should subsidise the renewables in order to perfect the technologies. He also said that calling them ‘subsidies’ was simply being honest about where the money was going, i.e. into R&D for renewables. My argument that if all we’re talking about is honesty about the distribution of monies, there would be no need for the nearly 300% increase in energy bills over the last six or so years fell on deaf ears.

          I was asked ‘why wouldn’t we subsidise the three ( solar, wind, and wave ), and have nuclear take up the slack. Why not make it all nuclear, I said. ‘Waste’ was the answer.

          This fellow has a highish (140+) IQ, and he has a very quick mind. I can’t find a way to get through verbally that his position is nonsense. Hey, I’m all for R&D into new stuff, but I’m stuffed if I believe that’s what renewable subsidies industry is all about.

          What I’m asking is; am I on the right tram with my thinking, and can you ( I’m directing this to Tony, because I know it’s his area of expertise, but I also know there are others here who are very qualified. I mean no offence, I welcome all input ) perhaps give me some links to help change this man’s mind? I’m not being lazy, but I don’t trust my Googling skills.

          It frightens me that one so bright can be so blind.

          50

          • #

            A problem with habitual quick thinkers is that they can arrive at a conclusion far too early.

            That holds especially for “nuclear waste”. Not only is the volume of material small, it’s also reprocessable into useful stuff; including seeding new types of reactors such as molten-salt thorium reactors.

            Such processing, to all intents and purposes, eleminates the very long-lived trans-uranics by e.g. tearing them to shreds with high density neutron flux; all the while providing energy that can be used to e.g. generate electricity. What remain are short-lived radioisotopes requiring century-scale storage; of even smaller amounts. That stuff isn’t waste; it’s simply a material for which there hasn’t yet been a viable application. It’s by-product waiting for a market.

            Unfortunately, several governments have banned or substantially restricted reprocessing of nuclear fuels which creates a mountain of problems that wouldn’t otherwise exist.

            NASA is now facing the end of its deep-space probe programme as it no longer has a source of Pu-238 isotopes for the RTG’s theat are used in such probes to provide heat and electricity when they are far from the sun.

            P.S. Japan’s PM Shinzo Abe will no doubt be returning to Japan, worshipped as a hero, after bravely attending the radiation-saturated WEF G20 summit in Davos, Switzerland; where background radiation levels exceed those requiring evacuations following the Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami in 2011. A medal featuring 5 bananas and Brazil nuts may be appropriate.

            40

            • #
              David

              A medal featuring 5 bananas and Brazil nuts may be appropriate

              With diamonds and swords of course for such heroic effort.

              20

            • #
              Andrew McRae

              NASA is now facing the end of its deep-space probe programme as it no longer has a source of Pu-238 isotopes for the RTGs

              Eh? The world’s first and foremost nuclear state can’t make Pu-238 for itself??
              Sorry, I don’t believe that. There is over 500 tons of Pu sitting around in the world’s stockpiles and 20 tons is produced every year from conventional nuclear power reactors. You don’t even need a reactor to make it, just zapping U-238 inside a cyclotron will make Pu-238, since that’s how it was first discovered.

              The 238Pu is (as of Aug 2013) produced and formed in Los Alamos (see fact sheet) and the metal slugs are sent to Idaho National Labs where they are built into final RTGs for NASA.

              Even if it were true they had lost all 238Pu domestic manufacturing ability, there is nothing to stop NASA doing the same thing as every other business is doing to cut costs… outsource to India.

              20

            • #
              Greebo

              they can arrive at a conclusion far too early.

              I’ve been guilty of that myself. I’m older now..

              00

          • #
            Leo Morgan

            My own personality is a bit like his. Ask him to defend the rationalist side. He’ll be as quick to marshal evidence against subsidising renewables as he is to do so for them.
            A possible phrasing: “It’s often said ‘someone doesn’t fully understand an issue if they don’t know both sides’. Why do people argue against renewables?” “Is that all you know of?” “Can you think of more possible reasons?”
            Questioning is good. You don’t have to know all the answers yourself. When they make silly claims like ‘the money goes to R and D’, ask “Are you sure it all goes there?” If you’re prepared to let slide a dodgy claim like that, then they’ll be happy to take the point, but if you ask them to expand on it honesty will often bring them to admit there might be more to it than they’d mentioned.

            For the blindly faithful rather than the intelligently debating, offer to subsidise them ten million dollars the way oil industries get subsidised if they’ll subsidise you one million dollars the way renewables get subsidised.
            Since the ‘subsidies’ to oil are ‘we could have taken more money but didn’t', while the subsidies to ‘renewables’ are often direct cash grants, this is a great bargain to you. Finally, mention casually to them that ‘Fossil fuels are not renewable or sustainable, but whale oil is. Why don’t you abide by your principles?’

            20

    • #
      Carbon500

      Thanks for a fascinating post on nuclear power plants and the construction of the generators, Tony. It’s always refreshing to read about real engineering, working in the real world.
      I have a question arising from this.
      I always like to look at topics of interest using source data and references, and some time ago I wanted to know more about the disposal of by-products from the nuclear industry – because the environmentalists will always throw this one at you and I wanted correct answers ready for any discussions.
      However, I’ve found it difficult to get the information I want due to a lack of response to my requests – perhaps the nuclear industry here in the UK thinks that any request for information comes from a rabid ‘greenie’, and is best not answered.
      Have you any reading suggestions? I would be very grateful for your comments.

      20

      • #
        Graeme No.3

        Carbon500:

        The Greenies always confuse the issue, whether by ignorance or design.

        The first problem is getting their tiny minds around half-life. A radioactive material loses half its radioactivity in its half life (elementary but somehow they fail to grasp that ). So if something has a half life of 250,000 years its radioactivity will be very low, barely making a geiger counter tick.

        If something has a half life of 40 minutes, 2 hours or 6 hours then it is very radioactive, but (in the first case) after 24 hours its radioactive emissions will be 0.000000146% of what it was when it came out of the reactor. That is why reactors generating medical isotopes e.g. Lucas Heights have to be near hospitals.

        So when they maintain that something will be radioactive for 250,000 years they don’t mention that you have to stand alongside them for 25-30 years for any effect to occur. Hence the classification into Low Level and High Level nuclear waste. The first isn’t dangerous if you are sensible and the second isn’t dangerous after a short time (I leave aside the question of toxicity of heavy metals).

        From roughly 1920-1950 uranium oxide was used as a colouring agent in ceramics e.g. false teeth and oven dishes. There are probably antique lamp bases around in lounge rooms that don’t glow in the dark despite what you are led to believe. There weren’t any health problems reported, it was discontinued as the result of an “aaargh! we are all doomed campaign”. Watches had the hours routinely marked with glow in the dark paint (fluorescent pigment with a small amount of something radioactive (usually radium)). The comment about this dangerous practice was that the radiation emitted 30 cm. from your head was less than that from the cotton fibres in your pillow.

        Good luck on getting any sort of accurate advice.

        30

        • #
          Carbon500

          Thanks for your interesting comments Graeme.
          To extend my initial questions, I’m interested in finding out exactly what emerges from a reactor, the type of radiation or particles emitted, the energies of these, and as you point out the half-lives of the materials in question.
          Then there’s the matter of processing and long term storage as well, plus known biological effects. Quite a shopping list of ‘wants’ I know, and as you say ‘accurate advice’ is a must.

          00

          • #
            Graeme No.3

            Carbon500:
            You don’t want much do you? I take it you are aware of the different types of emissions Alpha, Beta and Gamma (and sub-types).

            Beta is an electron and the least powerful. Gamma is gamma rays, as come from space, the sun etc. like X-rays but far move energetic (hence penetrative and damaging. Alpha rays are helium nuclei and because of their mass quite damaging in health terms. They are the only form of emission that changes one element into another (obviously one with a nuclear weight 4 less). The alpha ray acquires an electron and becomes helium gas.

            Can I suggest you start at http://www.world-nuclear.org/Nuclear-Basics/

            This page then leads into a raft of other information, in the Information Library. Generally far more info than the average person wants. Far more than I can give here.

            20

    • #
      Another Ian

      Tony

      FYI

      “interesting addition to this. the enviromentalist nuts who praise the windmills. who are now exempt from killing bald eagles.

      we had a truck come in and make a rush delivery for us. rest of his truck was mobil 1 55 gallon drums of oil. i ask. “whats that for” driver says “them springfield windmills”

      he makes a delievery every other week. the motors medium is oil. and because of the massive weight its needs to be replaced often. i had no idea they used that much oil.

      so windmills use oil and kill bald eagles. W**. and now they gripe about the amtrak. holy peets. morons”

      From comments at

      http://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=84772

      10

  • #
    toorightmate

    Tony,
    I support all you say.
    However, the proponents of nuclear should be aware that there is not much known Uranium available.
    Obviously, this situation self corrects to a degree when the price increases (more interest/exploration).
    If the world was totally nuclear now, the known supply is approximately 3 years.

    12

    • #

      So what is the nuclear share of world electricity generation? 10 % or so? So that takes it out to 30 years at present. Guess what, mining companies don’t look for stuff to mine in 30 years’ time. Also the nice thing about nukes is that it doesn’t take much fuel and the price of the electricity generated is not strongly dependent on fuel price so I think there’s a lot more uranium to be found if the price increases. Also there have been experiments in Japan to extract it from sea water using special selective sponges. Around $800 per kg was mentioned.

      There’s also that current reactors only burn up 1 to 2% of the fuel per cycle. You need to do reprocessing. In Gen 4 reactors the whole cycle is done on site and you burn up just about all of the fuel eventually. Also gets rid of some high level waste if done right.

      After all that, you can go to Thorium anyway. There’s lots of that.

      The “we’re gunna run out of uranium so don’t bother with nukes” is a false greenie anti nuke meme.

      50

    • #
      Joe

      Please do some research before make these type of statements.

      Please google Thorium and LFTR or Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors.

      By the way did you know that the known reserves of Thorium on our planet would, at current usage rates, outlast the life of our sun.

      20

    • #

      toorightmate: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Uranium-Resources/Supply-of-Uranium/

      In Wyoming, one mine where my husband worked is due to reopen in possibly as little as three years. Another a bit off to the west is also due to reopen. Two other locations were tested both last year and the year before for possible mining. Virtually all uranium mining in my state is now in situ and one would suppose the environmental impact statement is not nearly as difficult to produce as with open pit. The mine where my husband worked closed and was reclaimed, not because the uranium was gone, but because there was no market. Now, the market is opening up again. The one problem in my state is getting workers. People don’t want to live out in the areas where the uranium is–too cold, too windy, etc. If they can overcome this, the mines will reopen. Also, they had to work around the “sage grouse core areas” (little reservations for birds :) ). The yellow and black radiation signs are still up around the reclaimed areas of the mines, and cattle graze in the pastures there. I routinely post pictures of the signs.

      20

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Mining only in the summer might help. ;-)

        Those -20 F (-29 C) temperatures and even lower aren’t much of an attraction to most of the rest of us.

        00

        • #

          I could suggest that! When doing the exploration phase, the cook for the man camp quite in September and they were having a difficult time finding a replacement. Last month, it -34F with 60 mph winds, setting a new record. When my hubby worked at the mine, the record was -47F and 100 mph winds. It’s really not a place anyone lives or works unless they are paid very, very well (or they bought land over the internet, dumped all their money into retiring to the area and found out what it’s really like, too late to save enough money to leave….).

          00

    • #
      PeterK

      http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-A-F/Canada–Uranium/

      There’s plenty of uranium in Canada. We won’t run out for a very long time.

      10

    • #
      J Martin

      I read recently on a climate blog that coal contains thorium and if that were extracted (apparently via the Kerrick process) the Thorium in coal would provide 13 times as much energy as burning the coal. If that’s true, then I’m all for shutting down coal powered stations and moving over to Thorium. Why are we wasting a valuable resource like coal by burning it.

      10

      • #
        The Griss

        Not quite logical… You still need to mine the coal, and lots of it, to get the thorium.

        Seems silly to waste that coal, especially as the atmosphere needs more CO2. :-)

        10

        • #
          J Martin

          Mine the coal, extract the thorium, use the remaining coal as fuel to burn or convert into liquid fuel or useful chemicals. Why pump the thorium up chimneys and into the atmosphere, far too useful to waste.

          00

          • #
            The Griss

            I was agreeing.. Utilise everything as best as possible.

            Get the thorium, but still use the coal, best of both worlds.

            Dare I say it.. more sustainably ;-)

            00

          • #
            Andrew McRae

            They don’t really “pump the thorium up chimneys and into the atmosphere”, not to any great degree since the clean air and environmental protection laws of the 1960s were made.
            Nearly 90% of uncombusted material (ash) is scrubbed out of the exhaust, typically by electrostatic precipitators, before the remaining gas is sent up the chimney.
            See http://www.ipplc.com.au/education/Coal-fired-Power-Station
            I’ve heard this ash is used a source of gypsum at some stations and is sold to agriculture and construction. Getting the thorium out of it would be a new secondary refinement process.

            You could say the same about Uranium, since there’s bits of that in coal too, only at a tiny 1ppm.
            http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs163-97/FS-163-97.html

            You can also see from that USGS page that Coal is relatively depleted in Thorium compared to the crust average. There seems little point in using coal as the source if all you want to mine is Thorium. Probably an area chosen specifically for Thorium mining would be higher than average. I guess as long as you’re getting the coal anyway perhaps it should be recovered from the furnace fly ash and sold separately from the gypsum.

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      scaper...

      Thanks for the cash. Cornered the popcorn futures market a couple of years ago.

      A popcorn led economic recovery? Buttered for the as-salt.

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      Greebo

      Now, that was a time when I wished I was in a union. Blokes turning a sign from ‘STOP’ to ‘SLOW’a dozen times a day were on $140k PA.

      The worst thing about the Wonthaggi Desal plant is that it’s there, and we will pay for it, at least for the rest of my life. I find it very hard to laugh about that.

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        Bob Malloy

        Now, that was a time when I wished I was in a union. Blokes turning a sign from ‘STOP’ to ‘SLOW’a dozen times a day were on $140k PA.

        I’d like to know where that is, I am a certified traffic controller, rarely needed to use it but those employed at my workplace that carry out these duties on a regular basis would struggle to earn 50k per annum and are predominately union members.

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          Greebo

          I’d like to know where that is,

          Well, it was at the Wonthagi Desal plant, as I said. Did you not read what i wrote?

          but those employed at my workplace that carry out these duties on a regular basis would struggle to earn 50k per annum

          Clearly, you missed the connection CFMEU Desal Plant. Guys paid off their mortgage on that job.

          My role is transport, and I am astonished that no-one was outraged at the union payments on that site. It’s why we Victorians are condemned to massive water bills. Did you miss that?

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            Bob Malloy

            I did read what you read, did see your link to the CFMEU, also checked current wage rates in the Australian construction industry.

            They range from 45kpa to 189kpa with an average of 105kpa, and you state the traffic controllers get 140kpa, I still doubt it.

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              Bob Malloy

              PS, although a union member myself I fully realise that unions like the CFMEU wield more power than they should. They screw every thing they can out of the construction industry and an enquiry would not be out of place.

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    pat

    LOL. Serco has been attracting a lot of criticism recently on alternative media, RT, youtubes & the like, & their heavy presence in Australia is uaually noted. here’s a Yes Minister/”The Compassionate Society” episode moment to add to the complaints!

    2 Feb: Herald Sun: AAP: Hospital with no patients has 200 staff
    A MINISTER has been forced to explain why more than 200 staff were being paid to work at Perth’s new Fiona Stanley Hospital despite there being no patients due for eight months.
    Despite delays to the opening of the $2 billion hospital, 230 staff from under-fire contractor Serco are already in place…
    Serco’s relationship with the Barnett government has been brought into question in recent weeks, following a series of escapes from prisons and detention centres being staffed by the private contractor…
    The WA government has copped previous criticism after other health projects were “reprioritised” to free up tens of millions for a computing system at the Fiona Stanley Hospital.
    The six-month delay in commissioning the new hospital – attributed to the complexity of a “paperless” computing system – is estimated to cost more than $50 million in fees to Serco…
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/hospital-with-no-patients-has-200-staff/story-fni0xqi4-1226816021596

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      Graeme No.3

      Pat:
      reference Yes Minister for the program about a hospital with 1,000 staff and no patients. It was based on something that happened in the UK.
      I remember that because of going to the West Footscray Hospital in 1989 where there were 72 staff and no patients (nominal capacity 120 beds). The then government ran out of money after it built the hospital.

      Reference the case in Mozambique where aid money was made available to add a new ward to a hospital. With some ceremony a hole was based in a wall to discover a complete furnished ward which had been bricked off and forgotten about.

      Nothing surprises me about waste in the hospital system. As someone said, to err is human but to really stuff up get lots of bureaucrats involved.

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    Vic G Gallus

    I did a search on this site for topics on the runaway-greenhouse effect on Venus (It seems to be popular again). I came across a guest post by Michael Hammer and he asked how could the spectrum from the Nimbus satellite be explained other than absorption.

    The answers I need

    a) Why is the single spectrum always used as an example? Surely it changes with humidity and cloud cover (very fine clouds).

    b) The absorption of the band at 670 cm-1 is slightly less than around it. It should all be absorbed by 100 m for 380 ppm.

    c) Water absorbs, poorly, at below 700 cm-1 but its absorbance is comparable to CO2 at 670 cm-1 at 400 cm-1 on a humid day (tropics) so both would drop the intensity of the measured spectrum to close to zero, after 100 m let alone 100 km. I know that what happens in the upper troposphere is important but the temperature also drops to 220 K by then.

    Simply put, is comparing the spectrum to a black body radiator (what’s that black?) a bit meaningless? Does anyone know what the spectrum of the IR radiation emitted by water as it condenses is?

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    pat

    no surprise at all that everyone from Guardian to CBC to India’s Economic Times & so on are carrying the charlie headless chicken story. from what i could see, no-one writing the articles mocks him, rather he’s a “dedicated” or “enthusiastic” environmentalist. however, i did enjoy the ONLY comment at WalesOnline:

    1 Feb: WalesOnline: Wayne Davies: Prince Charles visits rain-soaked Hay-on-Wye hours after slamming climate change deniers
    After his forthright comments, he braved the elements during a trip that took in Presteigne and a landmark church near the border town of Hay-on-Wye…
    Comment by Kenny Lob On: I remember him coming to the open day of my acid reflux support group, a strong sense of duty ,and he listened to us when we told him that Rennies don’t work, they are just pieces of chalk,you need an antacid like ranitidine or lanzoprazole.
    we shared a joke ,and then he left. I wonder if he still thinks about me.
    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/prince-charles-visits-rain-soaked-hay-on-wye-6656068

    ***the funniest opening line:

    2 Feb: UK Independent: Paul Vallely: Prince Charles is right about climate change
    Ignoring global warming and its causes is a comforting path for politicians paralysed by self-interest and the consolations of denial
    (Paul Vallely is visiting professor of Public Ethics at the University of Chester)
    ***The old man who used to live next door was almost 80 and still smoking…
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/prince-charles-is-right-about-climate-change-9101543.html

    triple hypocrisy from BBC – charlie plus 2 stories on the same page. the funniest is from the Royal Correspondent, Nicholas Witchell, tho “rebukes” in the headlines also made me smile:

    31 Dec: BBC: Prince rebukes ‘headless chicken’ climate change deniers
    Witchell: He feels anger and frustration that those whom he regards as “powerful vested interests” are succeeding in challenging the science.
    He feels he has a duty to speak up. Those who know him well say he regards it as a mission, from which he will not retreat.
    Charles is all too aware that one day he will succeed his mother as monarch and find himself in a role which requires much greater discretion.
    But right now his frustration at what he regards as the lunacy of those who deny that man’s activities are harming the globe shows no sign of abating.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25984246

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    pat

    the usual u-can-write-anything-you-like…if it’s pro-CAGW:

    2 Feb: Jerusalem Post: YOSEF I. ABRAMOWITZ: Better energy and solving climate change
    The inevitability of climate change only creates complacency, which serves the economic interests of the oil, coal and gas companies that power – yet poison – our world.
    The truth is that we can stop our collective march into the climate abyss, and Israel can be a platform for solving this global problem…
    1. Convert Coal…
    With natural gas cheap and plentiful in most parts of the planet, this is an opportunity to phase out the more polluting power plants and convert a significant number from coal to natural gas. Indeed, the Chinese have now – albeit very late – banned any new coal plants near Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou.
    In order to accelerate this process, governments should offer grants and tax benefits to utilities and companies converting to natural gas, while also penalizing older and less efficient coal plants. It is realistic to phase out and convert half of the 2,600 coal-fired plants worldwide…
    2. Kill Diesel…
    The solution? The price of solar, wind and biomass in the developing world is a third to half the price of power from diesel. The developed countries, multilateral agencies and the World Bank could accelerate the availability of renewables in poorer countries by increasing exponentially the amount of risk guarantees for private sector investment, pre-development grants to developers, low interest financing for renewable projects and equity funds that should be satisfied with 10% annual returns rather than 20% annual IRRs or more.
    Sovereign wealth funds, in particular, should make available equity funds with a target 10% annual average return for renewable projects in the developing world… (THAT’S ENOUGH)…
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Better-energy-and-solving-climate-change-340056
    (The author serves as CEO of Energiya Global Capital, a Jerusalem-based solar developer and investor. Abramowitz was named by CNN as one of the leading global Green Pioneers and can be followed on twitter #KaptainSunshine)

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      … the Chinese have now – albeit very late – banned any new coal plants near Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou.

      I think you will find, that they have banned all new power plants of any type near Beijing, Shanghai, and Guangzhou. This is because none of the existing power plants are running at anywhere near full capacity.

      Communist central planning at its finest.

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        Roy Hogue

        Rereke,

        Could the fact that the cities you mentioned are the show-of cities in china have anything to do with the banning of coal plants? Were it me I wouldn’t want the coal plants belching smoke anywhere near such cities. Not good for attracting foreign investment or tourism.

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          Roy Hogue

          show-off

          Never proofread until it’s too late.

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          ianl8888

          And the MSM propaganda just rolls on

          These stations “belch” water vapour – not smoke. This is so despite any trickie-dickie TV photography

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            Roy Hogue

            Ian,

            I was hesitant to say this but finally think I should mention it. So if you’re still looking at this thread or getting email notification, burning coal has a very distinctive odor that isn’t at all easy to get rid of. You can easily enough get rid of the solid stuff, even very tiny particles. But extracting the odor — strictly gaseous — is another matter.

            A coal furnace burning clean, no visible smoke or output at all, still smells like coal. I spent too much time where coal was burned all winter long to believe you can get rid of the odor.

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          Rereke Whakaaro

          That could certainly be a contributing factor, Roy.

          Some of the plants were primarily built to demonstrate that China understands, and is using, state-of-the-art generation and control processes. Whether or not they are producing anything useful is another matter.

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      Graeme No.3

      If wind, solar etc. is half or less the cost of diesel why do they need incentives/subsidies to be used?

      You could easily make 20% return at that margin.

      I suspect that the bloke is mathematically challenged, except when calculating his take.

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    pat

    this is totally insane. read all:

    31 Jan: Gizmodo: Alissa Walker: An Entire City Under Construction To Save Another From Climate Change
    The African nation of Nigeria is experiencing many familiar problems in our age of climate change: rising sea levels, storm surges, devastating flooding. Now its coastal city Lagos is going to outrageous lengths to protect itself, both environmentally and financially, by building an entirely new city the size of Manhattan between it and the ocean.
    The multi-billion-dollar Eko Atlantic development claims it will safeguard against coastal erosion, “transform[ing] land lost to the power of the sea into an ocean-front city that will be one of the wonders of the 21st century…
    The Makoko slum — where about 100,000 people live on boats and stilted homes in a lagoon — is only about a mile away from Eko Atlantic. Parts of this slum and other communities like it have already been demolished or forced to relocate due to development. Some claim that Eko Atlantic’s construction and dredging have even made the coastal surges worse for these floating neighborhoods…
    http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/01/an-entire-city-under-construction-to-save-another-from-climate-change/

    however, equally insane, is that Lukacs at The Guardian seems more concerned that it is being done by private money. only taxpayers’ money is “pure”? nonetheless, a ridiculous project it is indeed:

    21 Jan: Guardian: Martin Lukacs: New, privatized African city heralds climate apartheid
    Nigeria’s Eko Atlantic augurs how the super-rich will exploit the crisis of climate change to increase inequality and seal themselves off from its impacts
    It’s a sight to behold. Just off Lagos, Nigeria’s coast, an artificial island is emerging from the sea. A foundation, built of sand dredged from the ocean floor, stretches over ten kilometres. Promotional videos depict what is to come: a city of soaring buildings, housing for 250,000 people, and a central boulevard to match Paris’ Champs-Elysees and New York’s Fifth Avenue. Privately constructed, it will also be privately administered and supplied with electricity, water, mass transit, sewage and security. It is the “future Hong Kong of Africa,” anticipates Nigeria’s ***World Bank director.
    Welcome to Eko Atlantic, a city whose “whole purpose”, its developers say, is to “arrest the ocean’s encroachment.” …
    Sixty percent of Nigeria’s population – almost 100 of 170 million people – live on less than a dollar a day. Preventable diseases are widespread; electricity and clean water hard to come by….
    Those behind the project – a pair of politically connected Lebanese brothers who run a financial empire called the Chagoury Group, and a slew of African and international banks – give a picture of who will be catered to. Gilbert Chaougry was a close advisor to the notorious Nigerian dictatorship of the mid 1990s, helping the ultra-corrupt general Sani Abacha as he looted billions from public coffers…
    The disaster capitalists behind Eko Atlantic have seized on climate change to push through pro-corporate plans to build a city of their dreams, an architectural insult to the daily circumstances of ordinary Nigerians…
    Prepare for the elite, like never before, to use climate change to transform neighbourhoods, cities, even entire nations into heavily fortified islands…
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2014/jan/21/new-privatized-african-city-heralds-climate-apartheid?CMP=twt_gu

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      Graeme No.3

      I seem to recall some advice in the Bible about building on quick sand.

      Sand foundations next to an open ocean can move quickly.

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      Roy Hogue

      Those behind the project – a pair of politically connected Lebanese brothers who run a financial empire called the Chagoury Group, and a slew of African and international banks – give a picture of who will be catered to. Gilbert Chaougry was a close advisor to the notorious Nigerian dictatorship of the mid 1990s, helping the ultra-corrupt general Sani Abacha as he looted billions from public coffers…

      It would appear that building on sand isn’t the problem. Maybe it’s a government more impressed with money than with brains. And maybe a helpless populace?

      Another solution without a problem to solve. :-(

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    I’ve posted the latest stats for January from uClimate.com on my blog Scottish Sceptic. These give the top clicked sites as:

    1 Stephen Goddard
    2 Climate Depot
    3 Watts Up With That?
    4 The GWPF
    5 Bishop Hill

    The top clicked articles were:
    (1 joint) Stephen Goddard: Understanding Climate Feedback
    (1 joint) Stephen Goddard: Why Are People Always Complaining About SkS?
    (3) Judith Curry: The Big Question
    (4 joint) The Next Grand Minimum: Should We Be Worried?
    (4 joint) Watts Up With That?: Picture of the week – great moments in climate protests

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      Franny by Coal light

      Are these stats from the number of click-thrus from your site Mike ?

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      Paul Vaughan

      Mike, thanks. Please keep making these announcements. There are many of us who are looking to branch out to new venues. Your summaries are helpful. I’m using them as shopping menus.

      I used to be content with just WUWT, but the intensity of the thought-policing — which was always egregious there — continued its escalation to the point where recently it went off the meter and hit the level of insanely ridiculous, triggering a wholesale visceral-level rejection of the deeply offensive, darkly sketchy & shady, tasteless thought-policing tactics. They went too far. So enough’s enough. It’s time to put more effort into branching out to venues free of creepy, hyperactive control freaks.

      My hope is to find civilized, positive venues freely exploring natural climate variability with 100%-guaranteed-absence of thought-policing.

      Surely at least one such blog can be free to exist??

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    should have said jonova was 13 next to judith curry

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    handjive

    Here, at the world famous surf break, Kirra Point, they have been re-engineering the groyne back to it’s original length.

    The groyne was built in 1972.
    “No one knew it was going to happen, they just turned up and built it and we all went, “Whoa!”

    Why did they do it?
    There was massive erosion on the beaches at Coolangatta and they needed to put something in to hold the sand there.

    The original groyne was shortened by 30m in 1996.

    And why have they decided to replace it now?
    It’s a structure that the Gold Coast City Council needs to maintain because it’s a coastal protection amenity.
    So they haven’t done any works on it since 1996, since they pulled those 30 metres off it.

    They’ve got to find a quarry that can blast like 25-ton rocks cause the surf just throws them around otherwise.

    However, Mayor Tom Tate said remaining rocks from the farm was of insufficient quality to last through the groyne’s expected 100-year lifespan.
    . . . .
    100 years?

    Julia Gillard renews warnings as she returns to the scientific debate on climate change
    JULIA Gillard has invoked a doomsday-like scenario of metre-high sea level rises and a 2000km southward shift of Australia’s climactic zones as she battles an opposition scare campaign over her proposed carbon tax.
    “It means that global warming will see seas rise by possibly up to a metre by the end of the century –
    that’s a huge risk to many parts of our country.”
    Ms Gillard said she was determined to act on the advice of climate scientists.”
    . . . .
    Maybe the boulders will erode when they are under water.

    Footnote: 1997, The Gold Coast City council joins the United Nations (UN) ICLEI (International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives) Cities for Climate Protection (CCP) program.

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      David

      “been re-engineering the groyne back to it’s original length

      Sounds like something from an album by the Twelfth Man.

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    David

    Off the topic of Climate Catastrophes but of no less importance to the Free World I would like to make the following observation. As there is some angst over the abilities of the current Democrat US President, as a committed Dimocrat [that is not a spelling error] I’d like to set the record straight on a previous Democrat Dear Leader who has been grossly and unfairly lampooned.

    I speak of none other than Dear Leader Bill Il Clinton. Some years ago President Clinton was hosting a state dinner when, at the last minute, his regular cook fell ill, and they had to get a replacement on short notice.

    The fellow arrived and turned out to be a very grubby-looking man named Jon. The President voiced his concerns to his Chief of Staff but was told that this was the best they could do on such short notice.

    Just before the meal, the President noticed the cook sticking his finger in the soup to taste it and again complained to the Chief Of Staff, but he was told that this man was supposed to be a very good chef. The meal went okay, but the President was sure that the soup tasted a bit funny.

    By the time dessert came, he was starting to have stomach cramps and nausea.
    It was getting worse and worse until finally the President had to excuse himself from the dinner to look for the bathroom. Passing through the kitchen, he caught sight of the cook, Jon, scratching his bum, which made him feel even worse.

    By now, the President was desperately ill with violent cramps and was so disorientated that he couldn’t remember which door led to the bathroom. He tried every door in the hallway and was on the verge of passing out from the pain when he finally found a door that opened.

    As he unzipped his trousers and ran in, he realized to his horror that he had stumbled into Monica Lewinsky’s office with his trousers around his knees.

    The President fell to the floor in pain and as he was just about to pass out, Monica bent over him to listen for a heartbeat and heard the President whisper in a barely audible voice,

    “Sack my cook.”

    And so commenced the unmerciful character assassination of a fine man.

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    Bones

    BREAKING NEWS
    Australia’s unusually hot summer has finally come to an end.Tomorrow,the pommie cricket team leave our warm shores for the U K ice pit and their local media.They may not like either.
    Before you all tear me a new freckle,the “unusually hot summer”has nothing to do with the actual climate.

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      Bones

      Sorry,forgot to mention,I hope Chuckie remembers to come out to welcome them home.

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      Eddie Sharpe

      The ‘ice pit’ England hasn’t been unusually cold this winter. January was a little wetter than for a while. We’re now at the junction between January/February, usually the depths of a British Winter, and going around in T-shirts. I wouldn’t recommend it for Aussie cricketers though. They’d be more likely to catch a cold, than anything else.

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        Carbon500

        Eddie – I don’t which part of the UK you live in, but I’ve not seen anyone in a T-shirt! My outdoor suburban thermometer has been giving early morning readings typically around 3 to 5 degrees Centigrade, and the days have been unpleasantly cold and often wet.

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    BrianJay

    Hi Jo

    Just remember his father the Duke of Edinburgh has discussions with David Bellamy even having him around to Buck House for tea.

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    AndyG55

    Just checked my emails on the hotel lobby computer.. (darn slow)

    Got this one

    “Congratulations! You’ve been randomly selected to be on the panel that chooses the Bloggie finalists.”

    So I have done my DUTY !!! :-)

    Catch yas in a couple of weeks.

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    pat

    one loony down, thousands to go:

    3 Feb: SMH: Michael Mazengarb: Why I quit climate’s dark art
    If you are a public servant and passionately disagree with government policies, and you believe it no longer respects the “advice that is frank, honest, timely and based on the best available evidence”, then quit.
    As the story goes, in the world of Harry Potter, a magical quill records the names of newborn wizards and witches who are destined to study magic.
    I’ve occasionally joked that such a quill exists in Canberra, which records the name of every child born and the government department for which they are destined to work when they reach 21.
    The fact the acronym of the agency I ended up being employed by – Office of the Renewable Energy Regulator – was pronounced the same way as Harry Potter’s eventual profession (a badass Dark Arts fighting ”Auror”), helped me to perpetuate this idea in my head. I also have a scar on my forehead from a dramatic childhood incident with a postal van. So, I’m basically the lame Australian Public Service version of Harry Potter.
    Why am I telling this story of mostly nonsense?…
    I enjoyed working in the public service, as it felt like I was making a real difference, and I worked with some amazingly intelligent and passionate people.
    However, the party couldn’t last forever and, inevitably, we had a change of government.
    The problem for me, and for climate and energy policy, was this change of leadership was only ever going to be catastrophic for the environment. We went from a government that understood and acknowledged the need to limit Australia’s contribution to climate change to one dominated by climate change sceptics…
    You can avoid the need for a self-inflicted Imperius Curse by seeking to instigate the change you want to see, by doing so outside of the public service.
    And that’s why I quit.
    (Michael Mazengarb is an energy market analyst and until last week worked for a federal government agency responsible for major climate change and renewable energy programs)
    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-i-quit-climates-dark-art-20140202-31v2o.html

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    pat

    Michael Mazengarb’s twitter page. why wasn’t he sacked?

    https://twitter.com/kincuri

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    Neville

    An interesting new Faezeh et al 2013 study looks at Greenland contribution to SLR until 2200. They look at a 2.8C temp increase by 2100 and a 4.5C increase by 2100.

    The first ( 2.8c) shows an increase in SLR by 2200 of 1.9cm to 3cm and the 4.5c increase shows 2.9cm to 4.9cm by 2200. That’s about 0.75 inches to 1.25 inches and 1.25 inches to 2 inches by 2200.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v497/n7448/full/nature12068.html

    We know that the models show Antarctica is negative for SLR for the next 300 years and Greenland’s contribution is small, so where do we get the IPCC’s dangerous SLR from?

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      Andrew McRae

      Synergy!

      But seriously, it’s not all from ice loss. Almost half the sea level rise is from thermal expansion according to the official climastrologists, while Scafetta and other climate skeptics have also noticed the obvious link between decadal scale sea level rise rates and regional ocean temperatures.

      The catastrophists say “This study marks the strongest case yet made that humans — by warming the atmosphere and oceans — are pushing the Earth’s climate toward the threshold where we will likely be committed to four to six or even more meters of sea level rise in coming centuries.”
      Yeah, we may be “committed” to 4m of sea level rise in “coming centuries”, but how many centuries, and isn’t most of this ice melting because of the warming at the end of the last glacial period anyway? Their own study shows ice kept melting “long” after temperatures stabilised during the last interglacial, so why wouldn’t that also be the story today? That’s why if most current SLR is due to melting ice then that’s actually good news, because we’re unlikely to have caused most of that melting. If most SLR was due to thermal expansion then we might have had a case to answer. They have to dive pretty deep and do some “systemic error adjustments” to extract any ocean warming at all from ARGO, so not much ocean warming happening lately.

      A later study puts a figure on it: 2.3m of rise per degree of warming. But that rise is spread over a thousand years or more, so it is still only 2.3mm/y on average – which is almost exactly what we’ve been seeing lately.
      The amazing thing about these studies is the way science is given political spin in the news the same way that wars and humanitarian disasters are given spin. Their models based on the previous interglacial period predict SLR rates not very different to what we are seeing now if averaged out over a century or more. You would think the headline would be “No fingerprints on SLR” or “Sea level rise within Natural Range”, but nooooo.

      I’d guess when the oceans cool over the next 30 years then the sea level rise rate will be reduced by 20% or 30%, then when warming resumes the current rate of rise is reattained in about 2070.

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    Neville

    Here is the Royal Society’s graph showing all the models of SLR until 2300. Greenland positive and Antarctica all negative. That’s about 99% of the planet’s ice. Antarc 89% and GLand 10%.

    http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/364/1844/1709/F4.large.jpg

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    Bite Back

    Live in the USA or are just interested in what the most powerful man in the world is all about and want to make your day? Watch this fuckup son-of-a-bitch dodge and lie his way through a 10 minute interview with Bill O’Reilly. This is the most shameful performance I have ever seen by an elected official.

    If you don’t already know, Bill O’Reilly has been more even handed in his treatment of the president than any other critic Obama has and has consistently resisted attributing nefarious motives to what the president does. So the president’s trying to say, “You say I do this or you say I do that…,” can’t work against O’Reilly. But of course, Obama tries it anyway.

    I don’t know how Bill kept his temper. Watching this I certainly did not keep mine.

    BB

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    handjive

    The Australian National Science Communicators Conference 2014, 2-5 Feb, Brisbane

    I contacted them and let them know I had first hand experience in science communication via the government funded (tax payer) The Conversation, where I was banned from commenting because I use two email addresses and have a dissenting view.

    This is despite there being no warning that you can’t have either to comment there.
    After all, it is funded by me, a tax-payer.
    If anyone has experienced a comment being deleted there, you would not want your main email box filled with conversation spam emails telling you your comment is deleted.

    Which is how they roll @theCon.

    Check the list of speakers.
    Not one person to question their insular view.

    A simple trip to Jonova would give them all the info they need on why they consistently fail in their communication.

    But, then again, Jonova doesn’t provide tax-payer funded buffets & first class flights to/from Brisbane.

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      Fascinating. Not a word on why the science is right. Just a whole seminar on putting out the propaganda the “authorities” want you to know. So it isn’t about science–it’s about indoctrination. Like we always knew. Unfortunately, propaganda only works if you shut out all dissent–which has only so far succeeded in North Korea. Any place with electricity and the internet, people find out about the propaganda plans and the lies they were sold.

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        Absolutely right. Most of the listed supporting cast are primary Government trough feeders, with a supporting cast of two or three second-order trough feeders.

        I love the bit that says, “Our approach was informed by psychological research into both the importance of scientific consensus and how to reduce the influence of misconceptions.”

        Translation: “Our propaganda messages were not getting through, and in fact every time we tried to take the initiative we somehow ended up falling on our faces, so we have now sought professional help from a real psychologist, to help us in, ‘crafting compelling messages … with diverse message delivery … [and] impactful [sic] communication outcomes’ [whatever they are]“.

        Of course, as you rightly point out, there is not a word about the veracity of the actual science, just a course on how to better get the propaganda disseminated.

        They ought to do a trade-in for John Cook, in return for a couple of North Koreans. They would certainly save money on the running costs, and they would probably be more effective, in spite of the language problems.

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      The Griss

      I can see at least 2 of the signs on the door from here.

      1. “Leave brains in cloak room before entering”

      2. “No entry without CAGW union membership”

      But if you really want to combat the two decades of misinformation, then I can’t think of any better place to start than John Cook’s cartoon web site.

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Brilliant!

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      You know, for a work of fiction, Atlas Shrugged is really looking like the author Ayn Rand had a looking glass into the future, considering she wrote the book 57 years ago.

      Tony.

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      Andrew McRae

      I am ROFLing my AO whilst wearing my LOLlerskates.

      “A no-bid license to overkill!”
      “Enter Big-G through the revolving door…”
      “MANDATED!”

      Awesome. It could be the most educational viral video on YouTube ever.
      Only 130k views, we have to get that number up.

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    handjive

    And, for anyone who loves a good timepiece:

    Traditional triumphs at Geneva show

    Any so-called digital smart watch has a long way to go before it can challenge the Swiss masters of time-honoured cog-work.

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    Angry

    Bill Gates admits to chemtrails………

    Geo-engineers are finally coming out of the “chemtrail” closet, as reports are now emerging about deliberate plans in the works to dump untold tons of sulfate chemicals into the atmosphere for the purported purpose of fighting so-called “global warming.”

    http://www.naturalnews.com/036583_geoengineering_Bill_Gates_global_warming.html

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    pat

    this goes on and on and on. can u believe how it suggests we haven’t been drowning in CAGW MSM propaganda 365 days a year EVERY year!

    3 Feb: SMH: Tony Moore: Greens use Griffith to push for climate change action
    The bigger issue of climate change subsequently got lost in a complex argument, over two elections, about the merits of a carbon tax.
    Seven years on, as Australia faces up to record summer temperatures and more intense cyclones, it has again been bought into focus by the Greens.
    On Monday in Brisbane, Greens leader Senator Christine Milne chided the major parties for decisions which she said appeared to ignore the impact of climate change.
    She was in the city to support the Greens campaign to win the seat of Griffith, left vacant by Kevin Rudd’s retirement…
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/greens-use-griffith-to-push-for-climate-change-action-20140203-31wtf.html

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    pat

    28 Jan: Boston Globe: Carolyn Y. Johnson: Climate change threatens a simple cup of tea
    A group of scientists including a Tufts University chemical ecologist are exploring the effects that climate change will have on tea crops in China, supported by a four-year, $931,000 grant from the National Science Foundation.
    Colin Orians, a professor of biology at Tufts, sees tea as an ideal way to study fundamental questions about plant biology, including how changing external conditions influence plants’ allocation of resources toward making defensive chemicals that protect them against being eaten.
    Orians answered a few questions about the research by e-mail. His answers, edited for length, are below…
    Q: Typically, when people think about the effect climate change will have on agriculture, they worry about crops failing. Do you expect these changes are already occurring in other agricultural products?
    A: Yes, we tend to focus so much on yield when thinking about climate change but this emphasis loses sight of the importance of quality. Is climate changing the quality of spinach, kale, or blueberries? I think we all could come up with a list of a dozen food and beverage items that we regularly consume because they are good for us. I want to know how those benefits are, or might be, changing.
    http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/science/2014/01/28/climate-change-threatens-simple-cup-tea/aK5I9AevMh8vv1EzbjNTjJ/story.html

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    pat

    Milligan works for Regional Arts Victoria, which receives considerable amounts of taxpayer-funding, it would seem:

    3 Feb: ABC: Jenni Henderson: Artist calls for climate change action with her new exhibition
    Prominent Gippsland arts administrator and artist Deborah Milligan has painted a call to arms for action on climate change for her new exhibition Dark Sky.
    A strong sense of foreboding and despair about climate change inspired Ms Milligan to paint the stormy and fiery scenes in the exhibition…
    Most of the paintings in Dark Sky depict landscapes in flux, whether it be a storm approaching over sea or a hill burning.
    “In a way it’s calling for change, it’s talking about the fact that we are in a state of climate change and we are moving and we need to keep up with it,” Ms Milligan says…
    “In a way [the collage] ties the whole exhibition together because on a quantum level we are all connected, we are all made of dust, space dust and that’s where we came from and that’s where we’re going,” she says.
    Juggling profession and passion
    Deborah Milligan is well known around Gippsland as an arts administrator with ***Regional Arts Victoria, promoting other Gippsland artist’s work…
    http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2014/02/03/3937042.htm?site=gippsland

    CAGW zealots simply aren’t equipped to ADAPT.

    Regional Arts Victoria – About Us
    Regional Arts Victoria is an independent, not-for-profit, membership-based organisation working in long-term partnerships with every level of government, fostering contemporary and innovative regional cultural practice across five decades. We advise and impact on decision-making across multiple portfolios and levels of government…
    http://www.rav.net.au/about/

    RAV: Our Partners
    Project Supporters includes ABC.
    http://www.rav.net.au/about/our-partners/

    check the Board, the Fund pages, etc.

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    pat

    3 Feb: UK Financial Times: Pilita Clark: Carbon capture backed to slash UK home energy bills
    Household energy bills would be slashed by £82 a year if the government boosted carbon capturing equipment on power stations instead of relying so much on offshore wind farms to tackle climate change, research suggests.
    Up to 30,000 construction jobs a year could eventually be created as well, according to analysis by the Trades Union Congress and the Carbon Capture and Storage Association of a technology that has struggled to make headway in Britain…
    Britain is one of the best areas in the world to exploit CCS technology, says Frances O’Grady, TUC general secretary, pointing out that depleted North Sea gas and oil fields are ideal for storing captured gases…
    ***However, the process is so expensive that it can double the cost of building a power plant. As a result, it has failed to take off, despite the $25bn that governments have committed to it over the past six years…
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3a99a87e-8aae-11e3-ba54-00144feab7de.html

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      Eddie Sharpe

      Well a union would say that, because they see it as an enormous expenditure on construction, while they see off-shore wind projects & the associated green jobs, going to foreign providers.

      I suppose they may be right in one way though. Can you imagine a CCS projects getting tax payer handouts for not-producing ?

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    Dave

    .

    The ABC and a Darwin Professor scare people shiitless about Climate Change

    It started over 2 hours ago with this tweet from 105.7 ABC Darwin:

    105.7 ABC Darwin ‏@1057darwin 2h
    Casuarina Beach’s iconic tree has fallen after rains and big seas. What a beauty. More with @VickiKerrigan. pic.twitter.com/ZnKPbZhxx7 Picture.

    One Casuarina tree has fallen over into the sand??? But look what the crew at ABC 105.7 ABC do.

    The this from ABC Darwin 105.7??? Tweets.

    1. She’s a goner & we can expect more of the same.Erosion is damaging our coastline & the Casuarina trees we love so much being killed. 2 hours ago.
    2. Human induced climate change is to blame for the death of a beautiful Casuarina tree on Nightcliff foreshore this afternoon. 2 hours ago.
    3. Clarification,human induced climate change part of reason trees down along Nightcliff foreshore according to CDU Expert Andrew Campbell. 1 hour ago.
    4. Correction: CDU’s@AndrewCampbell2 says climate change partly to blame for sad loss of tree @ Nightcliff foreshore. 46 minutes ago.

    Now for Andrew Campbell, the Professor at CDU.

    Looking forward to @1057darwin chat with Vicki aboit #DarwinNT beach erosion & sea level rise

    This is in real time and I’ve taken screen shots of all their tweets. Proffessor can’t even spell. This is better than Tim Flannery and the rains will never fall…..

    Professor Campbell and the ABC says Climate Change kills one Casuarina on Casuarina Beach in Northern Territory.

    This is gross opinion with ZERO proof, and obviously didn’t read the directive of the ABC about reporting fact.

    The Unis and ABC have shown their true beliefs in this little exchange, but unfortunately it gets air time paid by us, and most people wouldn’t check the facts.

    CLIMATE CHANGE KILLS ICONIC CASUARINA TREE ON CASUARINA BEACH NORTHERN TERRITORY.

    The world is ending. Fuccking blooody idiots.

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    Andrew McRae

    ABC says (my emph):

    Prime Minister Tony Abbott has stepped up his criticism of the ABC, accusing the national broadcaster of being unpatriotic in its coverage of the Edward Snowden leaks and asylum seeker abuse claims. …
    Mr Abbott said he was “worried and concerned” by the ABC taking a lead in reporting leaks from Snowden, a former US National Security Agency contractor.
    … “The ABC seemed to delight in broadcasting allegations by a traitor,” Mr Abbott said.

    [continued story]

    Mr Abbott said his criticism stemmed from two separate reports, which he said were not “fair, balanced” or “accurate”.
    He homed in on the ABC’s decision to jointly report with The Guardian details from the Edward Snowden leaks, which revealed Australian spy agencies bugged the phone of Indonesia’s president in 2009.

    After his Davos meeting, the metamorphosis of Abbott into Dubya II is proceeding with astonishing pace.
    Lemme guess Tone’s next speeches…
    You’re either with Big Brother or you’re with the traitors.
    Will the Australian Council for Civil Liberties support warrantless wiretapping, or will it become irrelevant?

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    Carbon stupidiy on TV this Monday evening on channel 72 showing how a repaired wind turbine was airlifted from Düsseldorf, Germany, to Santiago, Chile using an Antonov AN-124 air freighter. I didn’t hear how the damaged wind turbine bits got to Germany; or the excuse as to why one should be damaged in a storm.

    I didn’t keep track of the fuel used, but it’d be well over 200 tons of jet fuel for the trip in 5 hops. The cost of shipping was mentioned as being about a million dollars.

    If you think that story to be an “outlier”, engage your search engines.

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    Grant (NZ)


    ‘Significantly lower’ temperatures for January

    I read this article and was struck by the gullibility of the reporter.

    It came as NIWA released its climate analysis for the first month of 2014, showing strong winds caused temperatures to drop below normal.

    Uh duh. Wind does not change the air temperature. (It changes our perception of it). But an objective/scientific measurement of the air temperature should be unaffected by wind. Temperatures measured inside of a Stevenson screen should be totally independent of wind speed/wind run.

    I think either NIWA is clutching at straws to explain the lower than average temperature, NIWA doesn’t understand the factors affecting the climate, and/or the reporter did not understand the comment further down the article about low pressure and a south/south westerly airflow (which they interpreted as strong winds).

    Having said that, mornings have been much cooler through December and January (according to my home weather station), but the days have warmed up quite nicely. And the coldest mornings have been preceded by still, clear nights. I have to have 2 pairs of gloves for the motorbike – winter ones for going to work in the morning and summer ones for the trip home.

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