JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

This weeks spot for all those thoughts that don’t fit anywhere else.

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Weekend Unthreaded, 5.9 out of 10 based on 21 ratings

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109 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #

    Is this a hoax?
    “the discovery may bring about the biggest revision of human history ever made.”
    http://www.euronews.com/2013/07/03/egyptian-pyramids-on-the-antarctic/


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    • #

      So far as I can tell, yes, it is a hoax. It shows up on blog pages last September. No “reputable” sight seems to carry the story.

      There’s some discussion here: http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!msg/gec-other-sentient-side/O9w2sQMZpTI/PyUqtZZbp7wJ


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    • #
      Otter

      Tekeli-li! Tekeli-liiiiiii!

      *ahem* yes. Lovecraft.


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    • #

      A hoax pure and simple. No time in the last 10,000 years has the Antarctic been remotely habitable. One of the worst things about climate dogma is that actively discourages people from thinking for themselves.
      Next someone will be resurrecting a 1988 story about the German WW2 bomber on the moon. :)


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    • #
      Ian Hill

      Thanks for pointing that out Lance.

      I had to laugh. Those “pyramids” are nunataks, or the tops of mountains poking up through the ice and snow. I saw them at close quarters in January 2005.

      See http://www.travelquestinternational.com/TourReports/Antarctic/Antarctic6.htm where some photos I took are shown as a slide show.


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      • #
        Ian Hill

        The link worked but you’ll need to scroll through the pages to see my photos. It’s about page 6 or 7.


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        • #

          Thanks Ian and everone else. One of your photos does look a bit like a pyramid Ian. Yes looks like a hoax and some of those nunatak names make it seem like an even less imaginative one. Surprised that “Euronews” ran with it.
          Moore Pyramid.
          Pyramiden Nunatak.
          Sphinx peak.
          Pyramid peak.


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    • #
      Dennis

      I am not in a position to confirm or deny this, but what I am becoming increasingly suspicious of is what we have been told is the history of modern humans. I suspect that throughout the ages history has been modified, written out of records, changed to suit religion and politics.

      Many years ago I learnt that there are ancient gold mines in Africa that, I understood until recently, dated back around 150,000 years. I then found this and other references at Google:

      http://www.viewzone.com/adamscalendar.html


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      • #
        wayne, s. Job

        Thank you Dennis, that has been my understanding of human development for many years.

        Lately many rogue archeaologists and assorted other disciplines are coming out of the woodwork and bucking the consensus. They are digging deeper and finding that modern man has probably been around for a few ice ages and world catastrophies. Charles Forts ooparts are starting to be important.( out of place artifacts} The coming decades will see an upheaval of the prevailing wisdom,much like the fate of AGW.


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        • #
          Dennis

          Thank you Wayne, I have no doubt that there is an enormous amount of what we might call ancient knowledge that has been lost and/or locked away for whatever the reason might be. The Africa ancient civilisation story includes that Babylonian royalty is recorded on tablets right back a couple of hundred thousand years ago forward to the end of the Babylonian civilisation. I was also interested in references to structures suspected of being designed to utilise electricity from within the Earth.


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  • #
    Kevin Lohse

    They look more like 3 extinct volcanoes to me, but I’m not a climate scientist desperately seeking a grant.


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  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    I have been reading “The Science Delusion: Freeing the Spirit of Enquiry”, by Rupert Sheldrake – again.

    This is my second trip through the book and, although I am skipping bits, I am still finding insights that I missed the first time.

    Sheldrake starts from the premise that science, although professing high ideals, and the search for truth has, in fact, become seriously corrupted and locked into a series of dogmas that are largely untested, and to some extent untestable.

    One of which, is that the universe itself, including life, is mechanical. The universe, and people, and weather events, are all reducible to hypothetical machines, that can be deconstructed, measured, and analysed using mathematical processes.

    He goes on to question ten of the underlying aspects of modern science, and raises some interesting points.

    With a long record of research, all published in reputable journals, Sheldrake is somebody whose ideas should at least be considered. Even if you cannot take the final step to full acceptance, his ideas will change the way you think about science.

    As the British Independent newspaper put it, in a 2012 review, “But as the world plunges into crisis, and science – at least of particular kinds! – grows in influence and expense, such examination has become a matter of urgency”*, it is a significant contribution to any debate about science.

    *Note the reviewers, less that subtle, inferred reference to Climate Change?


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    • #
      mullumhillbilly

      The concept of Morphogenic fields makes it difficult to take him too seriously, though to his credit, he has tried to test his ideas in a scientific framework..


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    • #
      manalive

      One of which, is that the universe itself, including life, is mechanical …

      The world we observe is mechanistic.
      The success of Apollo 11, the fact that nobody had any doubt that it would be successful except for possible human or mechanical error (which would be human anyway), was the ultimate demonstration of that.
      The life sciences have similarly progressed.
      It seems the further humans explore the physical world, the universe, cosmos, both outward and into the sub-atomic, the more complexity is revealed like staring into one of those fractal figures.
      Things are complex enough without worrying about the metaphysical.
      Perhaps the search for Final Causes is futile but the urge to explore seems to be hardwired.
      The only impediments to the process in the past have come from officialdoms of one kind or another, either secular or religious.
      I’m off to church now.


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      • #
        Ace

        Man…half awake… and dead to existence.


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        • #
          manalive

          Baffling.
          I don’t see why you would launch into ad hominem — I was simply putting an attitude compatible with Western scientific practice since Francis Bacon.


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          • #
            Ace

            If you are baffled then how can you conclude its “Ad Hominem”……….Ingenuous expression…………You can only be making assumptions. What are all assumptions based upon? Culture.

            Rareke was referring to the limits of science. Not to the practice of science. You wouldn’t use a monkey-wrench to torque a screw. would you?


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            • #
              manalive

              You wouldn’t use a monkey-wrench to torque a screw. would you?

              Quite so, I’m not Uri Geller.
              Can you frame an argument instead of a run of incoherent blather?


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              • #
                Ace

                Before waxing “philosophical” (cf your first “comment”) you should actually study some philosophy: “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should not speak” being the relevant quote.

                Aside from which you wouldnt need to resort to citing a mediaeval monk if you were familiar with the work of Karl Popper.

                If the only tool you know is a monkey-wrench then you will never corectly torque a screw. You will instead blather irelevantly about Apollo 11, bearing no relevance to anything.


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      • #
        Rereke Whakaaro

        … except for possible human or mechanical error (which would be human anyway) …

        But one of Sheldrake’s points is that humans are also viewed as machines within the analytic framework of mechanistic science. The thoughts you have are merely ‘the ghost in the machine’ – and occur spontaneously at random as part of the mechanistic processing.

        Getting my head around that, is why I am reading the book again … or perhaps it is because I was programmed to read it again … hmm?


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    • #
      Andrew McRae

      Astonishing. Here is what just happened.

      On Saturday at 9:30pm I was looking up the address of Burt Rutan’s PDF of graphs on climate change as I was going to reference it in a comment here. Well I never ended up posting the comment, but I also found Rutan had recorded a video interview with WUWT last year. As it was getting to late I decided I would watch it on Sunday.

      Sunday night rolls around and at 11pm I eventually get around to watching it.
      After it finishes YouTube fills the screen with other suggested or related videos, and one of them is titled “The Science Delusion” which is an interview with Rupert Sheldrake. Never heard of this character before but the book title seemed to ring a bell. So I decide to watch that too.

      The only relatedness that these two videos have is that they both question conventional scientific dogma.
      But the stuff Sheldrake talks about is really way-out there stuff, hard to believe it could even be approached scientifically. A very interesting discussion nonetheless, especially regarding the idea that all humans inherit access to a collective unconscious memory, and the hypothesised process of “morphic resonance” that sends information into people and gives rise to the phenomenon of telepathy.
      As far as topics go that’s really pretty “random”, right?

      So I dial up joannenova.com.au to see if there’s a Weekend Unthreaded and check what’s the hap in the zoo.

      And darn me if the 3rd comment on the page isn’t Rereke – of ALL people it’s Rereke – talking about Rupert Sheldrake and the Science Delusion.
      Now what are the chances of that happening? Is that morphic resonance or what?

      Well it’s obvious what just happened.
      There really is an all pervasive collective unconscious memory and disembodied intelligence which surrounds us and connects our minds together and steers our thoughts in a common direction.
      It’s called the Google Corporation.

      I figure the Googlebots (which Jo kindly permits unfettered access to this page and to the identities of its commentators) had scanned this page’s topics earlier today, saw that Sheldrake was being mentioned by Rereke, also knew I frequently visit this site and would probably do so again, probably even knew that I’ve replied to Rereke’s comments slightly more often than most, and so suggested Sheldrake’s video when I then used YouTube (which is also owned by Google) later today.

      That’s right, Scooby, there really is a rational materialist explanation for everything.


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  • #
    • #
      Rereke Whakaaro

      Well, without knowing any specifics, but as somebody who has done a fair amount of forensic analysis of documents, I would guess that the 220000 emails in the final tranch, haven’t been released because they would be of little interest, except perhaps to a voyeur.

      A lot of significant emails were released in the first tranch, and were probably identified and selected by key word or key phrase search. But there were references in that material to other messages that were not in the first tranch, indicating that the full picture had not been presented.

      This was mostly resolved by the release of the second tranch, that picked up most of the outstanding references. There were a few exceptions, but not many.

      What remains therefore, will probably be the administrative, social, and personal emails. There were some of these in the first two tranches, but nowhere near what I would expect, and the size of this final tranch does seem to be consistent with what I would expect, in this last class of emails.

      If you want to wade through 220,000 messages about meeting times, and the the fact that the photocopier is being serviced, and “Would the person who removed my mug from the tea room please return it?”, then good luck to you. But believe it or not, most business email are about such earth-shattering stuff.


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      • #
        David Ball

        Read the article. What you are claiming does not appear to be true.


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        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          In what way have I lied?


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          • #
            David Ball

            Read the article.


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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              I did. Would you like me to read it again?

              So tell me, in what way did I lie?


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              • #
                David Ball

                You claimed there is no useful information in the remaining emails.

                “Mr. FOIA suggested there was more useful information with examples, such as origin of the term “deniers” applied to those who questioned Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) science. “


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              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Ah, at last, we have something substantive.

                And for the record, I did not make a claim, and I did not lie.

                I expressed an opinion, based on my professional experience in conducting forensic investigations in the area of electronic correspondence, that the emails were not released because they were essentially irrelevant to the matter of climate change.

                The vast majority, of “corporate” emails, usually well in excess of 80%, are trivial and/or personal in nature. The percentage of non-relevant material tends to go up when people work closely as a team, because they tend to meet in person, or discuss matters over the telephone, neither of which are discoverable after the event.

                Now, I don’t know, and neither did I claim to know, what the actual percentage is, in the case of this file. But as your father points out, Mr FOIA was sufficiently aware of the material, to release the most pertinent stuff in the first tranches.

                You point out that Mr FOIA suggested that there was more useful information in the remaining emails. I also know that to be true, because, as I pointed out before, there are some emails with unresolved references, that are still outstanding.

                The vast majority of those emails will be trivial business matters (as I mentioned before), but some will be highly personal information of a private nature, and irrespective of what you or I might think, that material deserves to remain confidential. How would you feel if your child was diagnosed with terminal leukemia, and you emailed that information to somebody else, perhaps asking for them to cover for you for a while, and the email went public on the web?

                To quote myself, “… they would be of little interest, except perhaps to a voyeur.”


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      • #
        David Ball

        You spent quite a bit of effort to say nothing.


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        • #
          Rereke Whakaaro

          But at least I try to inform people, and share some information. Your one-line directives are more concerned with taking a superior stance, than adding useful comment.

          Is Tim Ball your father, by any chance?


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          • #
            David Ball

            What possible difference does that make?


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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              It is a relatively common name, so I asked a simple question.

              It may be coincidence, or it might be unimportant, or it could be significant. Time will, no doubt, tell.


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              • #
                David Ball

                It is an attempt to distract from the import of the post.


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              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Not at all, unless you allow yourself to become easily distracted.

                But an answer to the question could indicate your motivation in making a comment without any apparent reason, would it not?

                And that information would also inform how any subsequent “conversation” should proceed.


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          • #
            David Ball

            And the superior stance is purely imagined.


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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              Is it?

              You have made seven comments, so far, on this thread, and only one gives us any indication of you opinion on anything. And none offers up an inkling of what you think, in relation to your fathers article.

              The others have all been instructions or challenges to me in relation to how you expect me to behave.

              How would you define your writing style, if not biased by a belief that your view (or rather your father’s views) are superior to everybody else’s.


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              • #
                David Ball

                You posted an incorrect and uniformed response to the article. Your very first words were “without knowing specifics” then go on to make unsupportable claims. Weak. Now you tell me how I should react. Keep your comments on the subject at hand, and not on me or what I am doing. Obfuscation.


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              • #
                David Ball

                (edit) Uninformed.

                Also I hadn’t made “seven comments”. I had made one.


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              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Ah, we have a semantic problem.

                On this site, Joanne, and occasionally some guests, post articles, which we mere mortals comment upon. When I made my comment, your avatar appeared seven times on this thread. I hope that clarifies matters.


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          • #
            David Ball

            I was also trying to inform. Why is mine a superior stance where yours is not?


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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              No, you put up a link, with no explanation, and expected everybody else to figure it out for themselves. If they came to a different conclusion to you, then they would be too stupid to understand its import, in the way that you do.

              That is the actions of somebody who feels superior, or wants others to feel inferior, which is really the same thing.


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              • #
                David Ball

                “and expected everybody else to figure it out for themselves. ”

                Big assumption there, don’t you think. I expected nothing from anyone. They can choose to read, or not. They can choose to comment, or not.


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              • #
                David Ball

                “and expected everybody else to figure it out for themselves. ”

                Big assumption there, don’t you think. I expected nothing from anyone. They can choose to read, or not. They can choose to comment, or not.


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          • #
            David Ball

            I posted an informative article. What did you post?


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            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              You put up a link [ibid.]!

              I, whilst pointing out that I had no specific knowledge of this particular file, explained the reason why going through a file of 220,000 emails would have seriously diminishing returns.

              And I stand by that assessment. Especially because if there was a real smoking gun, it will not be in the 220,000 emails. Mr FOIA will have found it long ago.

              I am sure that people are going through the file (I am not one of them), and I am equally sure that when something is found, it will see the light of day on the sceptic blogs.

              The remainder of the file stands in evidence that the previously released emails were in no way unusual, but were rather part of the normal business as usual, at the time the total file was released.


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              • #
                David Ball

                Wow, you make some huge leaps of faith there, Rereke. You seem so sure of yourself that one might say it is a superior stance.


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              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                … you make some huge leaps of faith there …

                Do I? What leaps of faith would they be?

                You are very good at making statements, but you never seem able to qualify them with any facts, or explanations, or examples.

                And yes, I am very sure of myself. I have been doing this sort of stuff for a long time, so I have a modicum of experience in these matters. What you want, is not always what you can get. So you take what you can get, and live with it.

                And if you care to call that, “A superior stance”, then so be it. It really makes no difference to me.


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              • #
                David Ball

                “The remainder of the file stands in evidence that the previously released emails were in no way unusual, but were rather part of the normal business as usual, at the time the total file was released.”

                Please elaborate on this leap of faith. If I understand you correctly, “business as usual” tells me there is much more in the remaining emails. As Mr. FOIA himself has stated.


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  • #
    David Ball

    Regarding the Sky Dragons. I do not know why some of the dragons cannot communicate a simple idea. What they are saying is not that there is NO greenhouse effect, but that Co2 has NOTHING to do with the greenhouse effect. Simple as that. Do not be mislead by an over-complication of the issue. Sometimes bright people have difficulty communicating a very simple idea.


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    • #
      Peter C

      The Sky Dragon is the notion that CO2 is causing catastophic global warming. The Slayers reject that notion.

      The Slayers (of the Sky Dragon) have a diversity of views and do not, as yet, have a complete and consistent theory of the causes of climate change nor a complete explanation of the observed mean earth temperature.

      However I would say that they all hold certain views:
      1. CO2 does not and cannot cause global warming,
      2. The Greenhouse Gas Effect Theory as explained by the IPCC and numerous university web sites is not correct,
      3. The energy budget contained in the Keihl Trenberth diagram is incorrect.

      A visit to their website; Principia Scientific International, will be informative to those seeking to understand the views of the Slayers, and perhaps to learn more about the physical processes underlying the observed mean earth surface temperatures.


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    • #
      Myrrh

      David – why do you think there is a greenhouse effect as described by AGW, why do you think carbon dioxide is as they describe?

      I have nothing to do with the PSI, but I can debunk the claims under the headings PeterC provided.


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  • #
  • #
    RoyFOMR

    Steve Mc rips a new one for Paul Nurse, President of the Royal Society.
    A must read!

    http://climateaudit.org/


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    • #
      Peter C

      Absolutely agree,
      Sir Paul has been an enthusiastic advocate for the CAGW notion and is now in a deep hole. Even his chosen team of Royal Society climate scientists seem to be backing out on him. Andrew Montford’s monograph on the way he and former president’s have betrayed the former ideals of the Royal Society is devastating. His only way out is to try to misrepresent Montford.
      No one should believe Sir Paul without first reading Montford’s Nullius in Verba (the motto of the Royal Society). You can down load it for free from the Global Warming pPolicy Foundation web site.

      He owes Lord Lawson an apology for comments he made at Melbourne University. Lawson gave him a way out if his team at the RS would engage in a meaningful debate on Climate Change, but it seems to be hard for them to accept.

      Hopefully the members of the august society will finally start to take some notice of what he has been doing on their behalf and chuck him out.


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  • #
    Ace

    A nice thing about the internet is the opportunity it affords of being rude to people in far away places. I hate “civility”.

    Not much scope for provocation here for today though.


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  • #
    Dave

    Is this correct?

    Coldest start to Arctic Summer for 55 years. I checked back on each year to 1958 and it seems right.

    Is the pause going into reverse.

    Crank up the coal production please.


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      • #
        Dave

        Ace,

        Agree totally.

        Beautiful machine, needs 16.56 megawatts of externally supplied electricity.


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        • #
          Backslider

          Beautiful machine

          They truly are, and absolutely mind boggling when you get up close.

          I had the opportunity to get inside one of the drag lines in Blackwater, Qld, Australia. Same deal, around 16 megawatts. The operator told us they had to call up Gladstone power station whenever they fired it up.

          The “house” was bigger than K-Mart. One link on the bucket chain was bigger than a car. The boom was filled with pressurised gas (I forget what exactly) so they would know there was a problem with it.


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          • #
            Ace

            Ow heck Id love to see such a thing.


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            • #
              Backslider

              It was a truly unforgettable experience.

              I forgot to mention that it walks! Yep, no tracks or anything like that, this baby got legs (kinda). It also generated power back into the grid. Every action, such as dropping the bucket, swinging the boom (braking) and walking generated power.


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          • #
            Dave

            Found this,

            Cat D8 versus the Bagger 289 on video.

            It’s massive.

            Picked up the 32 tonne dozer and plopped it in the conveyor shoot.

            I’m with you Ace, love to see one of these up close.


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            • #
              Backslider

              That’s interesting. I remember my mate pointing out that the D8 that was working on the dragline pad could easily fit sideways into the dragline bucket :-)


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            Hasbeen

            A friend of mine used to manage the assembly of the things. Shipped in CKD from the states & assembled on sight, he had some hair raising stories of testing the emergency braking of the boom & bucket, before handover.

            His business card read “John Smith” Erection adviser.


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      jorgekafkazar

      I don’t think so. I checked a half-dozen or so years, and 1976 & 1986 seem just as cold as 2013 at this point in the year. We’re talking only a degree or so, one way or the other.


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  • #
    MadJak

    Comrade Rudd to replace the Carbon tax with a system managed by the people who gave us CDOs and the GFC trading in a trace gas

    FFS. Get the message you communist bastards – stop using manufactured scares to implement your command economy structures – it’s never worked and is completely destructive in nature.

    It’s just as destructive a giving the power to manipulate the costs of baseload power generation into the hands of speculative brokers.


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  • #

    In the U.S. CO2 emissions are falling in the electrical power generating sector. Some commentators in the media point the finger at the closure of a large number of coal fired power plants, and how the huge ramping up of wind power especially is the cause of those closures, and note here I used the word number of coal fired plants, and not the power that they supply for consumption.

    True a large number of plants have closed, but what types of plants, and what are they actually being replaced with? It’s between a third and a half of all coal fired plants closing, but the power that those closed plants supplied to grids came in at less than 10% of total power generation from every source, based on data from 2003, ten years ago.

    Those now closed coal fired plants were nearly all of them virtually time expired, and supplying only tiny to small amounts of power to grids across the U.S. Because of their age, and their tiny size, the power that they supplied was that used in the periods of greater consumption, those daily Peaking Power periods of time. So these old plants were used as running reserve, turning and burning, but not supplying power until called upon, usually for four or so hours a day.

    All of these plants are being replaced, not by Wind Plants, but by Natural Gas fired plants, which are specifically designed to be able to run up fast, and supply their power at short notice, again, mainly in those daily Peaking Power periods. So, this is a direct replacement of old coal fired technology, (and some even ancient) with newer gas fired plants to serve the same purpose, supplying power for small time periods of Peaking Power consumption.

    It’s a same power for same power direct replacement, and in fact these newer gas fired plants are supplying more power to grids than the closed old coal fired plants, and the data bears this out.

    As part of the explanation, I used a typical Load Curve for power consumption, but I added some colour to the Curve indicating where power comes from, with reference to the curve. When you see this Load Curve, the amount of power Wind actually does supply will come as a surprise to nearly all of you. Just plain percentage figures don’t give the full picture that this representation does. Consider that this Wind Power comes in at 62,000MW Nameplate Capacity, the equivalent of 31 large scale (2000MW) coal fired plants. There are only 29 coal fired plants greater than 2000MW, and not one of those plants has closed, or is proposed to be closed in the near term. In fact, barely 20% of the total number of plants in the U.S. are greater than 750MW Capacity, and in fact, nothing over 750MW has closed. Yet this 20% of the number of coal fired plants supplies more than 90% of all coal fired power.
    It’s a long Post to read, and it needs to be, requiring careful explanation for a full understanding of what is actually happening.

    While emissions have dropped to a level of 7.5% lower than they were in 2003, and this seems to be a significant achievement, for Kyoto to be actually complied with requires that reduction to be 20%, so they are barely one third of the way there. That 20% emissions reduction will actually require at least one third of those plants greater than 750MW to be shut down, something that will never happen, because this would remove close on 15 to 20% of all U.S. power generation.

    Link to Post: U.S. Electrical Power Sector CO2 Emissions Are Down

    Tony.


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    pat

    12 July: Washington Post: Cheryl W. Thompson: D.C. energy bills from alternative suppliers subject of hearing
    Five months later, Ford is one of scores of D.C. residents who have filed complaints alleging that alternative energy suppliers, such as Starion, duped them into thinking that they would see huge savings on their electric bill if they left Pepco. Instead, their bills have increased — some by more than 50 percent, according to their complaints…
    “The whole point was for me to lower my utility bill,” Ford said. “I had to get on a payment plan so I wouldn’t be sitting in the dark.”
    Many complainants elderly
    The D.C. Office of the People’s Counsel, the agency that represents utility ratepayers before the D.C. Public Service Commission, government agencies and the courts, has recorded more than 145 consumer complaints against seven alternative energy suppliers this year, including 29 against Starion. About 75 percent of all complaints were from residents of wards 4, 5, 7 and 8, neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly minority and have some of the highest poverty rates in the city. Senior citizens account for many of the complainants, the OPC said…
    The commission has scheduled a public hearing for Friday to determine whether a large-scale investigation into those companies is warranted. Commissioners will hear testimony from consumers about billing practices and marketing strategies. District law prohibits alternative energy suppliers from “engaging in . . . unlawful, misleading or deceptive” practices…
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-energy-bills-from-alternative-suppliers-subject-of-hearing/2013/07/11/5e53383c-d43f-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html


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    pat

    12 July: Ottawa Citizen: Gordon Hoekstra: Pacific Carbon Trust’s growing surplus approaches $30 million, fuelling calls for its elimination
    Under the system created in 2009, hospitals, schools and universities are forced to pay into the trust as compensation for their carbon emissions. This allows the B.C. government to claim the public sector is “carbon neutral.”…
    The PCT’s surplus is increasing because the public sector is charged a much higher price for emitting carbon ($25 per tonne) than is paid to the forestry and energy companies for the carbon reduction credits ($11.30 per tonne on average in 2012).
    “This continues to be a shell game for government, where they overcharge their own agencies to buy these carbon credits,” said Canadian Taxpayers Federation B.C. spokesman Jordan Bateman.
    He said the mounting surplus is particularly worrisome. Bateman agrees with critics who charge the carbon trading system simply takes dollars away from cash-strapped public institutions and gives it to corporations that might have made improvements without any financial help.
    “The best solution is always the simplest — just kill the program altogether. Leave that money in the classrooms and operating rooms of British Columbia,” said Bateman…
    Facing criticism last year over its carbon trading system, particularly from school districts, the government made some adjustments.
    In April 2012, the government said it would set aside $5 million a year in grants for carbon reduction projects in schools, about the same amount they paid yearly in carbon penalties…
    There are more changes to come…
    The government said options it would consider include lowering the cost of carbon offsets to the public sector, reinvesting the surplus into other programs or retaining the surplus to help balance the budget…
    http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Pacific+Carbon+Trust+growing+surplus+approaches+million/8649076/story.html


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    pat

    always good for a laugh:

    12 July: Guardian: Dana Nuccitelli: Recessions make climate change costlier, Hope family research finds
    The father-son duo of Chris and Mat Hope have published a study in the prestigious scientific journal Nature Climate Change with the counter-intuitive finding that the relative costs of climate change are higher in a world with slower economic growth.
    Cambridge’s Chris Hope is one of the world’s most prominent climate economists, having researched energy and climate economics for over three decades…
    Growing up, Mat Hope learned from his father about the growing consensus amongst climate science and economics experts that humans are causing global warming (now over 97 percent agreement) and that the costs of climate damage will be high…
    In any case, the PAGE model average estimate of the cost per ton of carbon dioxide emissions today exceeds $100, whereas in most existing carbon emissions trading schemes and carbon taxes, the price is in the range of $10–25 per ton. The Obama Administration recently revised the US government social cost of carbon estimate upwards 60 percent to a central value of $36 per ton based on updated model assessments, including from Chris Hope’s PAGE model. This change caused great consternation from the Republican Party, but according to the Hope study, it’s still a factor of three too low…
    First, the economic recession is no excuse for delaying action to address climate change. On the contrary, we should be doing more to reduce greenhouse gas emissions because slow economic growth means we’ll have less wealth to cope with the climate-induced damages in the future…
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2013/jul/12/climate-change-expensive-economy


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    pat

    great chart in here; jo could benefit from some of that funding no doubt:

    12 July: GlobalResearch: James F. Tracy: CO2 and the Ideology of Climate Change: The Forces Behind “Carbon-Centric Environmentalism”
    Ostensibly a not-for-profit enterprise, preaching the climate change creed has also become a lucrative endeavor, with immense financial resources provided for its continued proselytization. Indeed, the climate-related tax-exempt 501C3 organizations constitute a multi-billion dollar public relations machine devoted to driving home one central theme: humans are to blame for every weather-related disaster graphically presented in every electronic media outlet. Such phony environmentalism involves vigorous efforts to transform public policy based on dubious science while ignoring genuine environmental threats.
    While such 501C3s may be found encouraging donations from the general public, the scale of many such organizations’ annual revenue and assets suggests reliance of very deep-pocketed individuals and institutions with an eye toward selling government officials and the broader public on the notion that almost every aberrant weather event is the result of greenhouse emissions.
    The following list of nonprofit organizations devoted to pushing the view of climate change and sustainability—by no means complete—has been gathered from their 990 tax forms for 2010. In that year such 501C3s brought in over 1.7 billion in revenue ($1,742,350,656), with the Nature Conservancy, led by former Goldman Sachs managing director Mark Tercek, accounting for over half that amount. Data in the fourth column demonstrates the extent of such entities’ public presence; some command greater journalistic attention while others operate with almost complete anonymity…
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/co2-and-the-ideology-of-climate-change-the-forces-behind-carbon-centric-environmentalism/5342471


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    Dennis

    The government that has been charging us carbon dioxide tax costing $9 in every $100 of electricity bill (9%) has announced that it is no longer necessary (an election will be held soon, major consideration) and instead the timing to join the collapsing EU emissions trading scheme will be brought forward.

    Thank you Australians for contributing several billion of dollars a year to your government, ten per cent for the UN, your government has admitted to being short of money and has not yet worked out how to achieve the 2013/14 Budget with the carbon tax loss of revenue but intends, as usual, to find new budget savings.

    Kevin4Kevin promises this will happen, and that in the near future his government will achieve a budget surplus, never achieved since the Howard Coalition left office in 2007.

    Please don’t mention global warming.


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      Dennis

      I should have included that also hidden in our electricity bills is a so called renewable energy surcharge, the closest I have found to what that amounts to is $20 in every $100 (20%) that is apparently the surcharge and the retail distributor’s operating margin. I think the surcharge is about half.

      Talk about saving or attracting manufacturing industry to Australia is ridiculous while existing businesses are having to pay higher than necessary electricity bills.


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    Boadicea

    This is definitely off topic, but needs to be viewed by all sensible and educated people,if only to be aware of what western enlightenment may be in for.

    http://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvohttp://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvo

    And here we are in good old Australia with our back door wide open, not knowing the true bon fides of those coming here by boat from Indonesia, but also knowing that the some 100,000 christians were killed by islamists last year and the Coptic Church of Egypt is being systematically wiped out…and the poodles whe are the church leaders do and say nothing


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      Backslider

      This is definitely off topic

      There is no such thing as off topic in “weekend unthreaded”. :-)


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      Dennis

      Boadicea the question of what is a religion and what is a cult comes to mind, also how can extremist cultists be separated from moderate believers who mean no harm? We know that terrorism is a product of the alarmist cult people but they punish true believers too. Australia’s Constitution provides for freedom of religion, we cannot discriminate, and would we really want to do that? The people you refer to are of many different cultural backgrounds, humans are humans, good and bad, no one ethnic group has only the bad.

      I do believe that the government made a huge error of judgement when they decided to abandon the working well Coalition created Pacific Solution list of deterrents to people smuggling resulting in more people arriving than our authorities can process. And allowing them to live in communities before processing, a red flag to police situation, a danger to our society.

      The Coalition plan to add to the Pacific Solution deterrents that a person who does not have a passport upon arrival here, does not have visa permission to come, would be treated only as an illegal immigrant and not granted asylum application. That way the detainee would either remain in detention for the rest of their life or provide their real country of origin details so that they can be identified and returned home.

      I understand that at this time many Afghanistan military deserters are here via people smuggler vessels. They would be on record, photographs and fingerprints, and other details. Once identified they should be flown home to face their own government’s punishment.

      By thorough assessment of people and intelligence services keeping an eye on them when suspicions are held, and with the help hopefully of moderate members of the religion too, Australia might avoid the problems we are learning about that take place in the northern hemisphere, wherever the extremists settle.

      Immigration should be for people who have the skills and ability to contribute to our national prosperity and be willing to become good citizens.


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        Boadicea

        Yes Dennis

        But has really got me disturbed is the fact that when I spoke to our local Liberal candidate his only view was that we should let the authorities deal with it.

        …well clearly from the Luton imagery that approach hasnt worked in the UK

        Plus dealing with it means that we need to replicate the 100 man NSW Police unit dealing with Middle Eastern crime gangs stemming from the in flux of Lebanese (courtesy of that f’wit Fraser), in each state, and for each country that these people have come from.


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    Brian G Valentine

    My brother in law isn’t speaking to me because I told him that “global warming was the biggest if not the most harmful farce in recorded history and anybody subscribing to it is nothing but a Communist stooge.”

    My wife tells me I am too “divisive.” So what, I have had it. Enough is enough.


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      Dennis

      It is a very old human game called shoot the messenger Brian.


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      Rereke Whakaaro

      It could be that he isn’t talking to you seriously, because “global warming” is now, “so yesterday”.

      The current phrase is “climate change”. But if you want to oneupmanship your brother in law, the coming phrase is, “climate disruption”, which more or less covers anything that could conceivably occur with climate.

      It might also be a good idea to give him a Weather Rock, so he can do his own climate monitoring.


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      Annie

      Interestingly…when I walk around the village and make tentative jokes about AGW I find most people think the same and are actually quite disparaging about it. Not all follow the PC herd.


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    Dave

    .

    Hazy Crazy Climate Models

    They are starting to jump ship:

    1. Meehl, G. A. et al. Bull. Am. Meteorol. Soc.

    These models predict cooler temperatures: on average 15% less warming over the next few decades compared with standard climate projections

    2. Neely III, R. R. et al. Geophys. Res. Lett

    Another possibility that scientists have investigated is whether volcanic ash from minor eruptions and pollution from the industrialization of China and other countries are reflecting more of the Sun’s energy back into space. Still another is the prolonged lull in solar activity early in the millennium, which might decrease the amount of energy hitting Earth.

    3. Hegg, D. A. et al. Environ. Sci. Tech

    suggesting that black carbon from fires — rather than industrial sources — has a dominant role during the melting season in the Arctic.

    4. Ramanathan, V. & Carmichael, G. Nature Geosci.

    black carbon and other aerosols also reduce snowfall by inhibiting the Indian monsoon

    Looks like the 97% is going to be reduced along with the temperature.

    Please Note: I prefer to use actual peer reviewed scientific evidence.


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