JoNova

A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).


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Weekend Unthreaded

For all the things you want to discuss.

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Weekend Unthreaded, 7.4 out of 10 based on 19 ratings

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114 comments to Weekend Unthreaded

  • #
    Joe V.

    UK minister for Energy (& Climate Change) dithers over shale gas reserves.
    Pandering to Greenspin while UKIP takes largest ever share of the popular vote.

    52

  • #
    Roy Hogue

    I hate to be a complainer but…

    Can we get the site fixed? The new page layout has broken the comment numbering, making it hard to tell what’s what.

    The numbers next to the green thumb show up in red too — a bit incongruous to say the least.

    [A restoration is underway.] ED

    71

    • #
      Eddie Sharpe

      It’s still way better than most WordPress sites though :-)

      41

      • #
        Eddie Sharpe

        Who needs numbering anyway, when you’ve got nesting. I’d much rather have nesting than the numbering on most WordPress sites, such as eg. WattsUp..’s.

        51

    • #
      Otter

      Not sure it can be…? I’m seeing the entire site in black and white, and a dash of faint blue…

      31

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        The moral of the story is — from long experience — test your changes before putting them in the user’s hands, not after. :-)

        31

        • #
          Eddie Sharpe

          That’s a quaint notion Roy. Even commercial products are frequently tested ‘on the user’ after only the most cursory of checks.
          Many service companies no longer understand what ”testing” is.
          Customer Service orientation is more about managing problems and giving continual ‘progress’ updates, whether their be actual progress to report or not, rather than avoiding them in the first place.

          For services run on a shoestring there just isn’t the time or resources available prove so thoroughly before deploying.

          But I still admire your sentiment.

          [In this case the page layout was reset to default WP. It's not clear how it happened.] ED

          31

          • #
            Eddie Sharpe

            Am not complaining Ed. We appreciate your dedicated service, much more than any commercial offering. We are happy to share its trials with you, knowing you are puzzling over a solution, driven by passion rather then mere commercial considerations. Time for some chocolate I think.

            81

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            [In this case the page layout was reset to default WP. It's not clear how it happened.] ED

            ED,

            There ain’t no such thing as a non human induced change. If Jo’s web master din’t change anything then Word Press did something. What happened may be obscure but it’s definitely that proverbial 99.44% pure likely to be human (remember the Ivory soap commercials; or are you old enough?). ;-)

            11

        • #
          Andrew McRae

          One problem underlying the entire software industry is that most programmers find testing easier than writing correct code, and writing correct code is easier than writing robust code.

          People who don’t do what we do don’t know the difficulty of it all.

          Fundamentally, because software cannot generally be proven correct by testing, the only purpose of testing should be for validation (by the customer) not for verification (by the author).
          White box testing by the programmer is a means to an end, but it’s not sufficient for success, it’s not even strictly necessary, and to the extent lax testing breeds false confidence it may do more harm than good.

          Testing is believed to be easier than reasoning about Hoare triples, formalisms like requirements traceability and DBC are rarely done, weekly patch updates are now easy to distribute, the popular languages don’t have enough built-in support for strong type safety and complex assertions so making correctness more tedious than necessary, few want to pay for the time that correctness costs, and software is still developed by humans. That’s why there is so much buggy software in the world, even from top tier vendors like MS and the big O.

          Completely correct software, first time, on time, and under budget is possible, but I have only heard of one company that has delivered this consistently and (IIRC) they were NASA’s prime contractor for the Space Shuttle firmware. i.e.- no expense was spared and there had to be zero chance of error.
          For desktop or web applications, the only reason the way they are presently developed is acceptable is because the real impact of bugs is usually minor (nothing explodes) and can be worked around until it’s fixed, so risking some bugs in exchange for quicker delivery is seen as okay.

          Substitute “software development” for X in the following truism.
          If X was easy, everyone would do X.

          20

          • #
            Roy Hogue

            Andrew,

            I did work on one large project that was on time, within budget and actually worked. It all came together because the management team was monitoring every bit of everyone’s work on an almost daily basis. Problems were caught sooner rather than later. I’ve never worked on anything like that project since then. But it proves the point that you can do it if you’re willing to do what it takes.

            It’s too bad the project was classified so I can’t even mention a name. By the way, it was all done in FORTRAN, proving that even with the world’s crappiest programming language, you can succeed. And this was in the days of number 2 pencils, coding sheets and keypunch operators. We have come a long way since then.

            I would expect the space shuttle management team to be as vital a part of their success as were the people I was working under.

            I have been told that at Microsoft every programmer has a dedicated tester. I don’t know if that’s true or not. If there are any Microsoft people out there please correct me if I’m wrong.

            10

    • #

      Good news Roy!

      Thanks to the marvellous Andrew, it is all fixed. : -)

      Brilliant. Just brilliant.

      Let’s all thank him.

      Jo

      40

  • #
    Mark D.

    I just stumbled on this list of US record high and low temperatures by state. Why do you suppose there are few recent record highs in this supposed “warming climate”?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._state_temperature_extremes

    I count only three after 2000.

    21

    • #
      Eddie Sharpe

      It’s derived information on Wiki !
      I’d look into where the data comes from before spending much time wondering about what it might suggest.
      References to NOAA might look impressive, but find the data where it’s originally published to see what it means.

      21

      • #
        Roy Hogue

        Eddie,

        I can’t guarantee this in every case but NOAA seems to have two faces, one of which has managed to keep reporting things fairly honestly. If I’d known I would want to give you a link I would have bookmarked some things. But endless bookmarks get unmanageable. So sorry about the lack of a reference.

        Anyway, this may be fairly accurate data. And probably the only way to be sure is to have your own record, which I certainly don’t have the time or resources to keep. But don’t reject it out of hand.

        The really bad boy in the mix is NASA.

        21

        • #
          Eddie Sharpe

          I was only questioning the connection between the Wiki page, and where in the NOAA references it comes from. I didn’t find it from a preliminary peek at the references. Someone with more time or inclination might well. Until it can be sourced though, is it worth reading much into ?

          11

          • #
            Backslider

            There are two links on the Wiki page to NOAA PDFs. One has all the record high temperateures, the other has all the lows.

            20

            • #
              Eddie Sharpe

              Correct me if I’m being dense here. These lists are headed:. ” (Thru December 2003)”. And contain no dates beyond 1999, whereas the page contains 6 entries after 2000.

              10

    • #
      Joe V.

      Suppose it’s the unadjusted data. Doesn’t AGW rely on the older temps getting cooler with time, as the heat rises through the ages ?

      10

    • #

      Mark asks, ” Why do you suppose there are few recent record highs in this supposed “warming climate”?”

      The first question that springs to mind is, how many recent record *lows* are there in the same list, Mark?

      Let’s see what BoM have for us:
      http://www.bom.gov.au/tmp/cc/HN20.2251.png
      http://www.bom.gov.au/tmp/cc/TN10.6027.png

      http://www.bom.gov.au/tmp/cc/tmax.aus.0112.25995.png
      http://www.bom.gov.au/tmp/cc/tmin.aus.0112.30982.png

      Hmmm….I wonder what that all means….

      02

      • #
        crakar24


        Hmmm….I wonder what that all means….

        It means you are fishing for a pissing contest.

        This is all you need to know.

        http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH_LT_1979_thru_Apr_2013_v5.5.png

        10

        • #
          Vince Whirlwind

          Crakar, your point being that even a Creationist like Roy Spencer admits there is a clear warming trend in the temperature record?

          10

      • #
        Backslider

        I wonder what that all means

        It means, as we all know, that the BOM is overrun with warmist fanatics. Why else would they have these graphs in the first place?

        The first question that springs to mind is: Where is the data and method used to produce these graphs?

        10

        • #
          Vince Whirlwind

          Why would they have graphs like that?

          Maybe they intend to try to educate people on the reality of the world around us?
          As a government-run scientific organisation, I suspect that is a major part of their brief.

          I checked their description of their “data and method” and it all looks pretty good to me.
          I also checked some other scientific organisations websites and they all agree with BoM, so it doesn’t seem like BoM has been hijacked by a bunch of cranks.

          10

  • #

    After Jo’s posting “Antarctica gaining Ice Mass — and is not extraordinary compared to 800 years of data,” I thought I would do some finding out for myself. A fun starting point is often SkS blog – and antarctic ice melt is no exception. John Cook’s 2010 posting uses to two peer review articles – Velicogna 2009 and Chen et al 2009 – to demonstrate that not only is the Antarctica mass losing ice, but the rate of loss is accelerating. Really alarming stuff. I subjected the conclusions of the papers to some real “high-level” analysis on a spreadsheet, with some powerful formulas, like averages. Used almost 100 cells as well.

    I found
    1. Velicogna wrongly stated the years averaged in the abstract.
    2. Velicogna claims the acceleration is a quadratic function, but the abstract clearly states a linear function that my “high-level” analysis replicates.
    3. The Chen paper found a discontinuity in the trend, clearly contradicting the modelling of any sort of a single function.

    Check out my workings here.

    91

    • #
      Eddie Sharpe

      SkS quoting faulty science. Surely not ?
      I guess it could happen to anyone, but blows another hole in the veracity of the hallowed Peer Review ( someone clearly wasn’t peering hard enough). Not only a simple mistake either but one that fed through into affecting the conclusions drawn significantly.
      With SkS you have to wonder though, did they know or would they care, because it’s all about the impression it creates for them.

      Well spotted.

      Now I wonder what’s the chance of getting a correction or a retraction.

      51

  • #
  • #
    Rocky

    In case you wondered where the term Politically Correct arose ?

    Lysenkoism was “politically correct” (a term invented by Lenin) because it was consistent with certain broader Marxist doctrines. Marxists wanted to believe that heredity had a limited role even among humans, and that human characteristics changed by living under socialism would be inherited by subsequent generations of humans. Thus would be created the selfless new Soviet man.

    Like this is news once you know ? Selfless, like living in mud huts and working the fields ?

    61

  • #
    Rocky

    Climate Changers Burn Books

    From the Fahrenheit 451 department comes this indictment of California’s higher education’s “tolerance” for opposing views. When I first got the tip on this, I thought to myself “nobody can be this stupid to photograph themselves doing this” but, here they are, right from the San Jose State University Meteorology Department web page:

    Dumber Dumbest

    FREE Publicity – Best way to deal with Politically Incorrect Books is to put them in plain sight and say nothing

    41

    • #
      Joe V.

      Apparently the guy has a research interest in wild fires. They’re always on the lookout for good fire starting material.

      00

  • #
    handjive

    SpaceX Rocket Launches, Hovers, and Lands

    The ten-story tall vertical takeoff, vertical landing vehicle slowly lifts off the ground and climbs to a height of around 850 feet, then hovers effortlessly in the air before slowly lowering back down to the launch pad, successfully nailing one of the softest landings you’ll ever see.

    81

    • #
      Backslider

      That’s just amazing how they landed in exactly the same spot from where it took off!

      20

    • #
      Streetcred

      How could anybody give this a thumbs-down … ?

      20

    • #
      Yonniestone

      Is this for real? awesome footage (and song)
      Last night we saw the movie Oblivion, if you’re a fan of future flying craft and drones go see it, the storylines great too.

      10

      • #

        Yes, it is for real. However, a rocket taking off and landing vertically was done back in the mid 90s. Look up the story of DC-X. Unfortunately the Clinton administration wouldn’t fund the follow on Delta Clipper SSTO (single stage to orbit). DC-X got handed over to NASA after demonstrating all the critical techniques (including the so called “death swoop” – transitioning from nose first re-entry attitude to tail first for landing) required for SSTO takeoff and landing and NASA promptly crashed and destroyed it. Bastards.
        The boys and girls at the SDIO office did great work advancing the human race’s expansion into space in the late 1980s and early 90s while pretending to work on missile defence. Clementine went to Moon and discovered water while testing “missile detection techniques and sensors” for about $90 million. DC-X was a mere $65 million. A bit like the Peenemunde mob in WW2.

        Elon Musk and SpaceX have the right idea though. SpaceX has got to be the most fun place to be working on space right now. For a tiny fraction of what NASA would have spent they’ve developed 3 new rocket engines, two rockets, a re-useable capsule good for hyperbolic re-entries, a factory and a launch facility and are working on another near Brownsville, Texas.

        It is all about funding. No bucks, no Buck Rogers as the man said in “The Right Stuff”.

        Yonniestone, if you are interested in real future flying machines get a load of these: http://www.jobyaviation.com/home and http://www.e-volo.com/ Both have the potential to revolutionise personal air travel.
        Might go see Oblivion later this week but it has Tom Cruise in it which is a turn off.

        10

  • #
    Rod Stuart

    Those who monitor the agri-commodity trade will be aware of the effect of cold and wet on corn futures.
    The magic day for most of planting to be underway in the corn belt is 24 April. Planting later increases the risk of a poor crop. If cold and wet continue, brace yourselves for much higher food prices. With so much corn going in to vehicle fuel, a poor corn crop has an impact on the price of many foods.

    31

    • #
      gai

      Agreed. I am in the sunny south of the USA.(North Carolina) @ 6:00 pm it is 61°F (16°C) The daffodils just quit blooming last week! The weather so far this May is more like March weather ten years ago when the high for the month was 78°F and the mean was 63 °F. I am going to have to turn the heat back on tonight since it will be 54° F(12°C) tonight.

      00

  • #
    Rod Stuart

    On Climate Depot there is a good laugh about NASA and NOAA. NASA predicts rain for the next 140 years (why are they so imprecise? why not 141 years or 139 years?) and the NOAA prediction of a warm, early Spring has been trashed by a winter that just won’t stop.

    31

    • #
      Backslider

      a winter that just won’t stop

      Yes, that’s because global warming is accelerating and has turned out to be more extreme than they expected.

      An extended winter is clear proof of it!

      100

  • #
    MadJak

    Well I reckon all you Aussies should stop bludging off the kiwis here in Australia.

    ExPat Kiwis are facing the .5% insurance premium for the NDIS, but with the legislation as it stands, the NDIS will not apply to us if we’re disabled.

    ExPat Kiwis can’t join their ANZAC brothers by joining the Aussie armed forces or the territorials, but canadians, americans and poms are all welcome. In fact canadians, americans and Poms get Aussie citizenship after 90 days service in the armed forces.

    The fact that a third of the taxes I pay here go to fund the welfare system safety net of which I am not eligible means I must ask – surely one should not be charged for an insurance scheme which will never pay out to you due to your nationality?

    When this was raised with JulLiar last year, her response was that Kiwis are family, kindof like some runt under the table being fed scraps, apparently.

    Oh, and by the way, if any of you Aussies want to go to New Zealand, you can enjoy all the benefits the current regime excludes kiwis from.

    Never mind, We’ll just keep propping up your welfare bums for you. Just leave it to us.

    31

    • #
      Rod Stuart

      Canadians, Americans, Poms, and illegal immigrants, MadJak.

      41

      • #
        MadJak

        Wow, so we’re even regarded as being of a lower class than an Illegal immigrant in that respect.

        It seems to me that some people have, over the last decade or so have done their best to fleece that relationship for all they could possibly get out of it.

        Just to put some perspective on the seriousness of this, I know of one Kiwi family who after arriving here had a gravely ill child. When the child was finally in their last months of life, they were actively excluded from because they were kiwis. The result was a massive financial stress at a time which was already extremely stressful. It’s hard not to get angry about that when they had worked and paid significant amounts in taxes here, just to be excluded in the case where there is a genuine need.

        Excuse me if I become even more negative and despondent when people talk about the close bonds between New Zealand and Australia. It seems that in this case, Australia really has gone out of it’s way to fleece that relationship for all they possibly can. I call that a low and cheap act.

        30

        • #
          Yonniestone

          Madjak,
          That’s a terrible story but don’t confuse socialist bureaucrats with the average Australian, after all this type of system is what we want to get rid of in September.
          Last ANZAC day there was a genuine heartfelt bond for the Kiwis when mentioned so rest assured, jokes aside, the bond is still there and will show if the S%*T hits the fan so to speak.

          60

          • #
            MadJak

            Yonniestone,

            I agree, it just seems the beurocrats have really taken control. There is little sense anymore – let alone common sense.

            50

            • #
              graphicconception

              I agree, it just seems the beurocrats have really taken control. There is little sense anymore – let alone common sense.

              This is not unique to Australia. In the UK the recent council elections have seen a large increase in the vote for the UK Independence Party because the traditional parties all pursue similar policies and are increasingly seen as being out of touch with Joe Public. According to the article in the link this is also happening across Europe – even in Germany.

              40

          • #
            Backslider

            Yonniestone is right. Most regular Aussies have a soft spot for Kiwis, even if they do wear gumboots to bed ;-)

            50

            • #
              Yonniestone

              And don’t even mention the Velcro gloves ;)

              30

              • #
                MadJak

                lol. There is a reason why australian males are the largest demographic of tourist in New Zealand…

                Yous fellas is just Jellous bro.

                Seriously though, I think the kiwi apathy with this sort of thing is really working to our detriment. Most aussies I have talked to about this sort of thing are quite suprised to hear the facts.

                20

              • #
                Yonniestone

                Sorry, my links didn’t get through or they were moderated.
                Fair enough.

                10

            • #
              Rereke Whakaaro

              I didn’t know Aussies wore gumboots to bed!

              10

        • #
          lmwd

          MadJak,

          When I first came here around 8 years ago (bringing with me an education that the Australian taxpayer has not had to pay for) I perceived that Kiwis were treated similarly to Australians, only we couldn’t vote unless we became citizens. Now I, and my also very well-educated professional Kiwi friends, am becoming aware that the Australian Govt is quite happy to relieve us of substantial taxes, but if something happens, we have to fend for ourselves. It feels like creeping discrimination, that most Australians (even if they are fond of us) are not aware of.

          It has my friends and I, who thought we would never go back to NZ, starting to look more closely at what is happening over there – where are the opportunities and how do we position ourselves for the NZ job market? I’m already starting to make different decisions here on this basis – saving instead of spending on a newer car, and only investing in my home on the basis of what is needed for selling when the time is right, for example.

          One friend has a small business here employing 3 – 4 Australians, but when his father retires (he’s the technical expert and already in his mid-60’s) my friend will either try to sell the business or close it down. They have two young children, both born here (one child does have a rare disorder, which may or may not lead to blindness), so they are now seriously considering going back to NZ, also so that they can send their kids to one of the excellent state schools (whereas here you have to pay through the nose in private education to get the equivalent standard).

          50

          • #
            MadJak

            lmwd,

            Whilst the current government has been making some good moves at bringing some balance back to new zealand. Do your homework. Do not assume that new zealand will welcome you back with open arms (they won’t). NZ still needs at least another decade of fiscally responsible government to make any real headway into the massive undercurrent of “the world owes me a living” mentality whcih has so badly crippled the middle class over there ( I am talking welfare dependants as well as beurocrats).

            Personally, I have no problems with getting aussie citizenship. I do, however, have a real problem with forking out $7k to fill out the paperwork top get PR whcih I allready have (except for the purposes of welfare and citizenship). To me it’s just yet another rort from a government which every time it opens it’s mouth I can count on losing more money each year.

            Interestingly, if for wahtever reason all 628,000 Kiwis over here in australia picked up sticks and moved back, I think it would have a catastrophic impact on both economies.

            30

            • #
              Rod Stuart

              Did you arrive on the West Island after 21 February 2001, Madjak?

              00

              • #
                MadJak

                Yep. Missed out by about 6 months.

                I know of a 19yo kiwi been in Australia for about 3 years – can’t get uni assistance here because she’s a kiwi, but won’t get assistance in NZ Unis either until she’s worked in NZ for a couple of years. She’s an A grade student who simply cannot afford to progress her education.

                30

              • #
                Rod Stuart

                I didn’t step off the plane until October 2003. I can’t say that I’ve been mistreated. Oz only has a couple of faults; one is a government made up of old used union hacks, and the other is that there are far too may Australians.
                I had every intention of getting citizenship when I came, even though at that time I was dead set on retirement in NZ. It was a big shock when I found out that Kiwis arriving after the witching hour are barred from citizenship. However, I got over it. The mongrels won’t let me retire. :)

                40

            • #
              lmwd

              Thanks for the comments MadJak.
              My friends and I aren’t rushing any decisions, but I think it is interesting we are talking about what would have been unthinkable a few years back. Obviously, another factor is access to family support networks there that many of us don’t have here. I’m also waiting to see what a change in Federal Govt brings in September.

              Too true about the NZ Govt, which is why I’m watching John Key and the economy with interest. NZ’ers have an unfortunate tendency of putting a Labour Govt in just as the economy gets back on its feet.

              30

              • #
                Backslider

                NZ’ers have an unfortunate tendency of putting a Labour Govt in just as the economy gets back on its feet.

                Aussies the same. Its insane.

                30

            • #
              Yonniestone

              There has always been ideas of merging NZ with AUS as one, personally I don’t agree as NZ has it’s own history, culture etc and should remain as a proud nation and allies of AUS.
              Besides who would thrash us in rugby? ;)

              30

              • #

                I don’t often go in for inter Country joking, but this one has stayed with me for a long time, and while this version refers to New Zealand, that other Country could be interchanged with any other Country.

                An Aussie and a Kiwi were bantering in a friendly manner about, umm, what else, Rugby.

                After a while (as it does) the banter descended into friendly insult.

                The Aussie said, “You Kiwi’s haven’t got enough brains to tie your shoelaces.”

                The Kiwi, in a flash, replied, “Is that why all you Aussies wear thongs!”

                Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

                Old, so old!

                Tony.

                30

              • #
                Andrew McRae

                Except a real Kiwi would have called them jandals.

                I know the Kiwi accent likes to change the vowels around, but consonants are not to be trifled with!

                If their spelling mutation proceeds at this rate their UNIX commands will stop working! :D

                30

              • #
                MadJak

                Yonniestone,

                I am in favour of NZ becoming a state of australia at some point. I struggle to identify two other countries elsewhere in the world with more in common.

                But first I think NZ needs to “world owes me a living” class into line. The intergenerational dependancy cycle has to be broken. They’re too much of a liability.

                20

              • #
                Rod Stuart

                Imagine the situation if Tasmania were to become the true blue West Island of New Zealand. After all, the geography and climate of Tassie is far more like New Zealand than Australia. Both are home to Fonterra. Both are well entrenched in the “world owes me a living” meme. Both are wildly enthusiastic about men marrying men and women marrying women. (I suppose some Kiwis would like to marry their sheep, but then I want to marry my male Bulldog. After all, we love one another, don’t we?. My wife says she thought Goober and I were already married!) The Kiwis could run the TT line like the Islander. Air New Zealand could service all three Tassie capitals of Hobart, Launceston and Burnie, which are far more suited to being regional districts. We could dismantle the State government and ship Lara over as several tonnes of superphosphate. We could send all the Greens over to NZ where they could smoke pot in parliament. With the Greens gone, we could re-establish the forest industry, and ship the logs to New Zealand pulp mills instead of Japan.
                A veritable power house of a country if ever there was one!

                40

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                MadJak

                If you want Australia to become part of Aotearoa, then I am with you Bro. But the Aussie government will have to sign the Treaty of Waitangi, and we will need to have a land settlement to seal the deal. I reckon Western Australia would just about reach the mark. We don’t want Queensland – too many bludgers.

                10

              • #
                MadJak

                Rereke,

                I’m sorry but the Treaty of Waitangi is invalid. It was prepared on the premise that the current immigrants of the time (the Maori) would die off of european diseases. As such, there was no trust in existence for those few vague and misinterpreted paragraphs to be valid.

                The english and Maori versions were not in synch enough to make the contract valid.

                If it was to be signed with the truly indigenous people of new zealand it would be been a treaty with the Mori Ori.

                00

              • #
                Rereke Whakaaro

                Um, MadJak,

                It was, like a joke …?

                Especially the last sentence …?

                00

          • #
            MadJak

            StreetCred,

            I am all for leaving the intergenerational beneficiaries behind (I do agree with not providing benefits to kiwis on arrival in australia – they must earn their way first). Australia can and should be selective, just as any other country has the right to be.

            Leave the multiple generational solo mums, the dope growers and the bludgers behind. Maybe they can eat each other.

            10

        • #
          Streetcred

          ‘Illegal immigrant’ is the highest order of Australian citizenship. They don’t need the vote, collective action in burning buildings and attacking others gets a better outcome than voting by mere mortal citizens.

          Feel for you, MadJak, but consider this … if there were no disincentives to our Kiwi brothers (my sister & her husband live there), there’d be nobody there left to turn the lights out after the last one left.

          30

  • #
    theRealUniverse

    Trouble with any “data’on the web weather credible or not. It is often been jacked for the purposes of keeping the ‘funding’ alive or political like NASA and the Western “met service offices” data. Therefore is not reliable. Only real physical knowledge of how the Sun makes the climate can be assured as relies on physical principles and not endless graphs of dubious sources.

    30

  • #
    theRealUniverse

    For those who like other off topic posts and dont adhere to the diatribe of bovine excreeta issued by the Western hipocractic lies over so called ‘chemical weapons’ supposedly used by Syria, excuse to start a major war. (NOTE the US used depleted Uranium in Iraq ,, radioactivity material)
    Here is the Syrian Ambassador giving it to the Journos at the UN press conference!
    http://www.4thmedia.org/2013/05/02/bashar-jaafari-syria-on-the-situation-in-syria-press-conference/

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      Oh right DU is radioactive. It is U238 (half life 4.5 Billion years) and much less than 1% U-235(half life 700 million years). Radioactive, yes, just barely.
      Used in mass balances in control surfaces of some aircraft. Terribly dangerous stuff. Well it is when a 30mm shell is fired from the GAU-8 in an A-10 and goes through your tank, setting fire to everything inside.

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    Rod Stuart

    I just happened to flip through the channels and Neil Oliver is on the History channel talking about the Ness of Brodgar, the Stones of Stenness, and the heart of neolithic Orkney world heritage site (I’ve seen it before) and a thought popped into my head.
    Carbon dating puts this stone age world at its heyday 5,000 year ago.
    It seems unusual that this clan were at the bleeding edge of civilisation, technology, and religion in such a God forsaken part of the world. But on the other hand, would this not be at the time of the Egyptian Old Kingdom warm period?
    Why do I ask? I think that it would be pretty obvious that the warm period of the third millenium BC must have been like paradise in the North Sea, in order for this Stone Age clan to prosper.
    Any thoughts?

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      Yonniestone

      Rod, I was only discussing this the other day,
      What’s to say that the earth being approx 4.5 billion years old could not have had other human like civilizations grow and die off in that time?.
      I mean from ice cores we have found that earths climate was very livable longer than first imagined.
      Considering how stone, metal, people all end up as dust it’s quite possible we could be another humanoid race in a long line of others past.

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    Rod Stuart

    I just stumbled across an excellent paper that nearly seems a summary of all we talk about on Jo’s blog, and it comes from the UNIVERSITY OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA, of all places.
    I would wager that Cliff Ollier locked horns with dumb old Lew once or twice.
    Have a look. It’s beautifully written. Very nice work.

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      lmwd

      Very succinct and thanks Rod for posting the link!

      Interesting that in Lew’s distorted world, Ollier would be ridiculed. However, given the timing of this paper (and the Uni Depts Ollier represents), is it mere coincidence that Lew has also moved on from UWA?

      Kooky alarmists are on the run because their uncritical platforms are disappearing!

      If Lew has any sense, he’ll use his change to a new University as an opportunity to start distancing himself from previous alarmist rhetoric (including trying to medicalize dissent) and switch his attention to researching something useful and that benefits humanity.

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    Macha

    Just to be clear up front, I cannot subscribe to CAGW theory. Besides the scientific modelling, the danger with messing about with climate, we end have having to deal with the consequences anyway. So just like attempts to “control” bugs, vermin, etc. the outcomes are more often chaotic. Eg in Australia we tried cane toads with un-intended “success” – if that’s what is really was.
    IF we could actually lower CO2 levels, who knows what else that might lead to. It’s another failure of the precautionary principle.

    I Papaphrase from chaos theory ” the lighting of a butterfly in Africa, causes a storm in New Zealand”. We all end up dealing (paying) with the outcome anyway, so best prepare to handle real issues today rather than worry about might be in the future.

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      Streetcred

      Macha … the same people that introduced cane toads to Australia did the same thing in South Africa all those years back … I believe they called them government “scientists.”

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      gai

      ….IF we could actually lower CO2 levels, who knows what else that might lead to. It’s another failure of the precautionary principle….
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      Actually we have a pretty good idea of what it would lead to.

      #1. Lower crop yields

      … three commercial cultivars of durum wheat (Triticum durum Desf.)…

      Averaged over the three cultivars, the extra 600 ppm of CO2 supplied to the CO2-enriched compartments led to total plant biomass increases of 62% in the well-watered treatment and 60% in the water-stressed treatment. Also of interest was the fact that the extra CO2 led to increases in the nitrogen concentrations of stems and ears. In the case of ears, nitrogen concentration was increased by 22% in the well-watered plants and by 16% in the water-stressed plants….
      http://www.co2science.org/articles/V8/N2/B3.php

      Carbon starvation in glacial trees recovered from the La Brea tar pits, southern California.
      The Rancho La Brea tar pit fossil collection includes Juniperus (C3) wood specimens that 14C date between 7.7 and 55 thousand years (kyr) B.P., providing a constrained record of plant response for southern California during the last glacial period. Atmospheric CO2 concentration ([CO2]) ranged between 180 and 220 ppm during glacial periods… Here we report on delta13C of Juniperus wood cellulose, and show that glacial and modern trees were operating at similar leaf-intercellular [CO2](ci)/atmospheric [CO2](ca) values. As a result, glacial trees were operating at ci values much closer to the CO2-compensation point for C3 photosynthesis than modern trees, indicating that glacial trees were undergoing carbon starvation. In addition, we modeled relative humidity by using delta18O of cellulose from the same Juniperus specimens and found that glacial humidity was approximately 10% higher than that in modern times, indicating that differences in vapor-pressure deficits did not impose additional constrictions on ci/ca in the past. By scaling ancient ci values to plant growth by using modern relationships, we found evidence that C3 primary productivity was greatly diminished in southern California during the last glacial period.

      #2. If sequestering CO2 underground is used it could prove to be a health hazard:

      At about 9 p. m. on Thursday 21 August 1986 in Cameroon an enormous volume of carbon dioxide (CO2) gas was released from Lake Nyos, a volcanic crater lake in Cameroon. The gas flowed down towards nearby settlements and killed approximately 1,800 people, 3000 cattle, and countless wild animals, birds and insects – in short almost every living creature for miles around. The official human death toll was only an estimate… http://www.massey.ac.nz/~trauma/issues/2011-1/fomine.htm

      #3. If CO2 is reduced by using alternate unreliable and expensive methods of energy production, instead of thorium nuclear, we will see a major reduction in the standard of living, mass unemployment and famine with a resulting move to an increase in farm labor.

      The Luddites want to return us to ~1890 (For 2050, EU leaders have endorsed the objective of reducing Europe’s greenhouse gas emissions by 80-95% compared to 1990 levels)

      A rough calculation of what that reduction in CO2 means:
      The average energy use per person for the USA is 335.9 million BTUs per person. http://www.nuicc.info/?page_id=1467
      (Total population: 246,081,000)
      or http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40187.pdf

      In 1949, U.S. energy use per person stood at 215 million Btu. This is when the USA changed from horses to tractors. http://epb.lbl.gov/homepages/Rick_Diamond/docs/lbnl55011-trends.pdf
      or http://www.agmrc.org/markets__industries/energy/energy-industry-profile

      The U.S. in 1800 had a per-capita energy consumption of about 90 million Btu. http://www.bu.edu/pardee/files/2010/11/12-PP-Nov2010.pdf
      (Total population: 5,308,483)
      If the USA reduces its energy consumption by 80% it equals 45.18 million Btu. per person IF THE POPULATION WAS THE SAME.

      If we look at farming with horse drawn factory made equipment, we are looking at 1890 not 1800 although the energy consumption per person would be more.

      1890 – 40-50 labor-hours required to produce 100 bushels (5 acres) of wheat with gang plow, seeder, harrow, binder, thresher, wagons, and horses
      1890 – Most basic potentialities of agricultural machinery that was dependent on horsepower had been discovered
      1890-99 – Average annual consumption of commercial fertilizer: 1,845,900 tons
      ……
      1945-70 – Change from horses to tractors and the adoption of a group of technological practices characterized the second American agriculture agricultural revolution
      …..

      [COMPARE TO TODAY]
      1987 – 1-1/2 to 2 labor-hours required to produce 100 pounds (1/5 acre) of lint cotton with tractor, 4-row stalk cutter, 20-foot disk, 6-row bedder and planter, 6-row cultivator with herbicide applicator, and 4-row harvester
      1987 – 3 labor-hours required to produce 100 bushels (3 acres) of wheat with tractor, 35-foot sweep disk, 30-foot drill, 25-foot self-propelled combine, and trucks
      1987 – 2-3/4 labor-hours required to produce 100 bushels (1-1/8 acres) of corn with tractor, 5-bottom plow, 25-foot tandem disk, planter, 25-foot herbicide applicator, 15-foot self-propelled combine, and trucks
      http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blfarm1.htm

      #4. Some scientist think that human produced CO2 is the only thing keeping the earth from descending into an Ice Age.

      Lesson from the past: present insolation minimum holds potential for glacial inception (2007)

      ….Because the intensities of the 397 ka BP and present insolation minima are very similar, we conclude that under natural boundary conditions the present insolation minimum holds the potential to terminate the Holocene interglacial. Our findings support the Ruddiman hypothesis [Ruddiman, W., 2003. The Anthropogenic Greenhouse Era began thousands of years ago. Climate Change 61, 261–293], which proposes that early anthropogenic greenhouse gas emission prevented the inception of a glacial that would otherwise already have started….

      A newer paper from last fall:

      Can we predict the duration of an interglacial?

      …We propose that the interval between the “terminal” oscillation of the bipolar seesaw, preceding an interglacial, and its first major reactivation represents a period of minimum extension of ice sheets away from coastlines…

      …thus, the first major reactivation of the bipolar seesaw would probably constitute an indication that the transition to a glacial state had already taken place….

      …With respect to the end of interglacials, the MIS 5e– 5d transition represents the only relevant period with direct sea-level determinations and precise chronologies that allow us to infer a sequence of events around the time of glacial inception…

      …Thus, glacial inception occurred ~3 kyr before the onset of significant bipolar-seesaw variability…

      …Given the large decrease in summer insolation over the Last Interglacial as a result of the strong eccentricity-precession forcing, we suggest that the value of 3 kyr may be treated as a minimum. We thus estimate interglacial duration as the interval between the terminal occurrence of bipolar-seesaw variability and 3 kyr before its first major reactivation….

      Comparison [of the Holocene] with MIS 19c, a close astronomical analogue characterized by an equally weak summer insolation minimum (474Wm−2) and a smaller overall decrease from maximum summer solstice insolation values, suggests that glacial inception is possible despite the subdued insolation forcing, if CO2 concentrations were 240±5 ppmv (Tzedakis et al., 2012).

      Last most people do not realize CO2 is necessary for human life.

      THE IMPORTANCE OF CARBON DIOXIDE TO YOUR HEALTH

      CO2, Blood pH and Respiratory Alkalosis: Causes and Effects

      Blood pH is tightly regulated by a system of buffers that continuously maintain it in a normal range of 7.35 to 7.45 (slightly alkaline). Blood pH drop below 7 can lead to a coma and even death due to severe acidosis. This causes depression of the central nervous system. High blood pH (above 7.45) is called alkalosis. Severe alkalosis (when blood pH is more than 8) can also lead to death, as it often happens during last days or hours of life in most people who are chronically and terminally ill.

      Hyperventilation is the most common cause of respiratory alkalosis. Note that overbreathing is exceptionally common in people with chronic diseases (for clinical studies, see the Homepage of this site).
      The main mechanisms for blood pH maintenance and control

      - Carbonic Acid-Bicarbonate Buffer System
      – Protein Buffer System
      – Phosphate Buffer System
      – Elimination of Hydrogen Ions via Kidneys

      Carbon dioxide plays one of the central roles in respiratory alkalosis. Note, however, that tissue hypoxia due to critically-low carbon dioxide level in the alveoli is usually the main life-threatening factor in the severely sick. As we discussed before, CO2 is crucial for vasodilation and the Bohr effect….

      So you see we can get a pretty good idea of what would happen if we lower CO2. (as if we can with the oceans in actual control)

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    Andrew McRae

    I beseech the wise and the wrinkled to impart to me sage advice for dealing with my new episode of unemployment.

    This is only the second time I have become unemployed. (due to redundancy both times, is this Labor’s economy or what?)
    I’m hoping each time I get “practice” at unemployment I will become better at it. :D

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      Streetcred

      Kick back and enjoy the time off … 2 years for me doing odd consulting and advisory when it has been available … if, like me, you are a ‘senior’ getting back into the workforce might prove impossible.

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      Yonniestone

      Andrew, I don’t know what your skill area is but I would not rely on employment agencies completely for finding work.
      Seriously all my employment has come from me doing the direct contact or walk in method, even if I’ve been told to go through an agency.
      Also being an err older worker there’s an expectation of you to show initiative and authority even if your not that type of person.
      Recently I had to do this to bring younger blokes into line for safety reasons (don’t mess with cranes) while it works you can be thrust into a leadership role with no extra pay and a huge target on you if anything goes wrong. (don’t ask)
      Where I work now (small place) the guys are older than me and show respect for your abilities, it’s good so maybe somewhere similar might suit you or the option of working from home?
      Best of luck mate.

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      Rereke Whakaaro

      Andrew,

      I agree with Yonniestone, you can’t rely on agencies, with them it is just a numbers game, and it is easier for them to place half a dozen trainees than one experienced person, especially if you have more experience than your prospective boss!

      Look for firms that you would love to work for, and then do some research on them. Go to the library, and get every magazine article that mentions them, and every paper that any of their senior managers has presented to a conference in the last three years. Go right through their web site, and get a good idea of which market they are aiming at, and whether they compete on price or on quality or on innovation.

      Find out who in the organisation you would probably be working for, when you get the job, and ring them up and ask for a meeting about (some subject that would interest them). Most times they will agree to give you half an hour. At that meeting, give them a summary of what you know about the subject you mentioned on the phone, and ask about how they see the future. Then let it develop into a conversation. Towards the end of your alloted time, you can quite openly say you would like to help with that, and ask who you should approach, in the organisation, to see if that would be possible.

      If they give you a name, then you can approach that person with the referral of the first person you spoke to, and that makes it a whole lot easier. If they insist on you going through an agency, then tell the agency that you have been sent by your prospective employer as a proforma, and make it easy for the agency to recommend you for the job.

      Remember, the more research you do, the luckier you get.

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        Andrew McRae

        Now that is sneaky. It’s the kind of thing an ex SIGINT wizzo might contrive. On the other hand its not too different to the classic sales technique of talking up the problem before revealing the solution.

        I’ve not been great at selling myself traditionally, but I guess making the sale only takes half an hour and then “keeping it sold” takes the next 3 months. heheh.

        Okay, I reckon have to find a software dev company or consultancy where I will be working within a team because team projects are very sparse in my resume so I could use some more of that kind of experience.

        Thanks.

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          Try Lockheed Martin, Accenture, Red Rock, HP, IBM, Fujitsu, and similar. Check out their HR web page and a few of their job ads, then cold call them and ask for their HR/hiring manager. Word him/her up and get your CV over there. There’s loads of work around. Plenty of people left Brisbane after the big push by the current disastrous excuse for a government, and loads of jobs have come online again. Otherwise look in Sydney or Canberra. Loads of work there.

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      MadJak

      Hi Andrew,

      Having been in a similarly bizarre position about a year ago (3 months out of work, first for me), I sincerely wish you the best of luck. Just chiming in with the other comments – the head hunters out there are really just obstacles to get past in order to talk to someone who can be bothered understanding anything. They really are leeches, so just do what you need to do to get past them to talk to someone who knows something about the position, the company etc.

      Unfortunately many companies now seem to insist on going through these head hunters. They used to be good and all about getting the right person in the right team etc etc. Now they’re just real estate agents intent on collecting resumes (some exceptions, but becoming less and less). Don’t rely on the head hunters to negotiate any remuneration packages – they’re in a weak bargaining position because again, they probably have no idea what you do (they’re not even very good at pretending that they do now).

      If you’re in the IT game on the east coast, look for permanent employment and be prepared to take a haircut. All these consultants from the big Myki and Queensland health payroll fiascoes hit the market last year, and there are bound to be many more still out there. If you’re in the software testing space, think about reworking your resume based around some of your other skills.

      5 years of this government has every business trying to shrink their way to greatness (I call it decarbonising the workforce). It’s time for everyone to just hunker down – this appears to be what everyone I know is doing.

      Finally, get your linkedin profile working for you. Join some groups and show off your know how – especially if you’re in a niche area. I think many of the boutique agencies work predominantly off linkedin now.

      That’s all I can think of right now, but stay positive, get out there and find them – the days of the opportunities falling out of the sky are gone (on the east coast at least).

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        Andrew McRae

        (on the east coast at least).

        Well by jingo there’s still 3 other coasts to consider!
        Soooo trying to stay positive.

        So basically, I have fight a wave of drones to get through to the boss monster on the next level.
        Right! Got it!

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      Roy Hogue

      Hi Andrew,

      Sorry to hear that you’re out of work. I wish I had a magic formula but I don’t. The advice to go around the headhunters is good, however. You can research possible employers and with a few clever telephone calls or from company literature or web sites you can find out who the hiring managers are. Then try writing to them, send your resume, lay on a little praise and ask for their advice about whether you’d be a fit in an organization like theirs. Ask for a meeting with the objective of exposing yourself to the manager but without asking for a job. Research the company as thoroughly as possible before you write or meet with anyone so you can hold your own in a conversation about the company. Subtle salesmanship can work wonders.

      This actually landed me a position, so I know it can be done. If you subtly stroke someone’s ego and ask for a little help and advice it puts them on your side.

      Keep control of your resume and don’t let it get into just anyone’s hands. You don’t want to be contacting a hiring manager who may already have your resume from a headhunter. This is a hard one to call because a headhunter might pay off with an offer.

      And good luck!

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        Andrew McRae

        Thank you muchly, Roy. (That’s a Queensland expression and it’s not a keeper.)

        That is a big call, not putting one’s resume “out there” in the job markets and recruitment cloud.
        That was the next thing I was about to do today, but now you’ve got me procrastinating about it.
        Well surely if I’m trying to infiltrate a company then I’m trying to essentially create my own job that doesn’t exist yet and so can’t have been advertised? Therefore they aren’t going to receive my resume even if it’s out there?
        So the problem only arises if I am trying the direct approach for a vacancy that has been advertised, and one of the recruiters has already sent my file in. OK I see that. Not only would the manager think I’m jumping the queue but the recruiter will think I’m cutting them out of their finder’s fee. Maybe I get a black mark in the recruiter’s little black book which may bite me in the future. Hmmm. This is tricky.

        In that case there has to be two phases. The direct approach, followed by the recruiter approach if cold-calling doesn’t work.

        Maybe if I was good at fishing, or phishing, I’d have a knack for this.
        Ta.

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    Scarface

    Very good post on the Australian Climate Commission (ACC):

    Geoscientist explains why alarmist claims of continued global warming are unscientific political propaganda

    http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.nl/2013/05/geoscientist-explains-why-claims-of.html

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    crakar24

    I see Israel has bombed Syria, all the usual defenders have claimed its OK because “Israel has the right to defend itself”, thats all fine and dandy but i dont recall Syria attacking Israel.

    If Syria responds i can only assume that we will allow Syria the same courtesy as in “Syria has a right to defend themselves” or do double standards apply here?

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      Yes, I think double standards do apply as we seem (for some reason that escapes me) to be officially in the business of supporting an extremist Sunni take-over.

      Similarly, the inevitable future post-takeover genocides that will be committed against Kurdish, Allwite, Christian, and Shia minorities will be excluded from front-page news.

      You would think we would have learnt from past US foreign-policy mistakes supporting Pol Pot, the Taliban, and sundry other despicables. But we never learn. Or there’s a Grand Plan to all this.

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      Sceptical Sam

      cracker24, Syria is allowing the transportation of missiles through its territory from Iran into southern Lebanon by and for the use of Hezbollah. Lebanon is too weak militarily and politically to stop Hezbollah.

      As reported by Reuters: “..Israel was pursuing its own conflict, not with Syria but with Iran, and was acting to prevent Iran’s Hezbollah allies receiving missiles that might strike Tel Aviv if Israel made good on threats to attack Tehran’s nuclear program.”

      You seem to forget that it is an objective of some in the middle east to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Iran is one of them, and Syria has tried four times in the past and failed.

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        Andrew McRae

        By Israel’s choice of targets it would seem the missiles, if they even existed, were being delivered to chickens.
        http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d16_1367760953

        Presumably they were rebel chickens, though I cannot say if they were Sunni chickens or Shia chickens. There were so many chickens hanging out at this poultry farm it may have even been a chicken terrorist training camp. Whatever they were, those chickens will no longer present a threat to the country with the largest per-capita defense sector in the world. Good on you Israel, PETA would be proud.

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        crakar24

        What missiles? Did you see any missiles? There was more than one air strike you know, where there two missiles being transported on two different days the second being transported inside a building?

        You seem to forget that it is an objective of some in the middle east to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Iran is one of them, and Syria has tried four times in the past and failed.

        LOL get your facts straight or am i asking too much?

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        Rereke Whakaaro

        Slight correction required here. Syria has been turning a blind eye to the passage of ordinance from Iran to Hezbollah, this is common knowledge.

        The nice thing about chicken farms is that they have long, low buildings that act as chicken houses. By coincidence, a chicken house seems to be a good size to hold things that are long and thin and need to be hidden from the occasional passing drone.

        Now I have no information on whether or not this particular chicken farm was being used as a staging post on a transportation route, but presumably somebody in Israeli Intelligence did think so.

        And, in case it has escaped anybody’s notice, Syria is a bit distracted at the present time. So, the military thinking would be that now might be the a good time to ruffle a few feathers, and remove a potential storage location for any undesirable munitions.

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          crakar24

          This is funny

          Gillard on Q&A

          http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3740192.htm

          DARIA QASEM: Australia has always pushed for a just peace between the Israeli and Palestinian people, although the attitude by the Government has seemed to be biased towards Israel. For example, why are you ready to impose sanctions on Iran due to their nuclear weapon program although nothing has been mentioned about Israel’s existing nuclear weapons or their violation of the past in peoples’ rights?

          JULIA GILLARD: Well, thank you for that questions. In terms of Iran, I take the view and I think it is being taken broadly by nations like Australia around the world, that the regime in Iran should not have access to nuclear weapons, given the war-like statements that come from that regime, including statements that Israel should be, you know, sort of bombed into oblivion, that the Israeli state should be brought to an end by violent means. So I don’t think people who preach war should have the most destructive weapons the world knows. I don’t believe that. Nuclear weapons are around the world in the hands of democracies. Would we be a better world if no-one ever invented nuclear weapons? Well, yes, we probably would be a better world and if there was…

          TONY JONES: So a brief question there. I mean are you saying that Australia is actually just comfortable with the idea that Israel has nuclear weapons?

          JULIA GILLARD: Well, I think it would be a better world if no-one had nuclear weapons but…

          TONY JONES: But in the case of Israel?

          JULIA GILLARD: But at least when nuclear weapons are in the hands of democracies that are not preaching violence, that is aggression, they are not looking to go to war, that is more reassuring than what we have heard from Iran and its aim to get a nuclear weapon and the war-like rhetoric that we heard.

          TONY JONES: A few hands have gone up. We’ll take the hand just in front of our questioner.

          JULIA GILLARD: Okay. Sure.

          TONY JONES: Go ahead.

          AUDIENCE MEMBER: Does Australia have much to say with nuclear warfare considering we don’t have nukes of our own?

          JULIA GILLARD: Yes, we do get a say. We have actually had a proud tradition of being leaders around the world on addressing nuclear non-proliferation and bringing countries together to work on nuclear non-proliferation. Now, you might well say, well, how can we even get a seat at the table when we don’t have nuclear weapons? But given the interests of countries around the world in not seeing nuclear warfare is broader than those who have got the nuclear weapons we do lead on many of these issues in international forums.

          TONY JONES: Okay. I’m going to keep these answers brief because quite a few people have got their hands up.

          JULIA GILLARD: Sure.

          TONY JONES: There’s a young guy there. Go ahead.

          AUDIENCE MEMBER: You were saying Iran is the aggressor. For almost a decade now Israel has been murdering thousands, tens of thousands of Palestinians. Now, let me ask you a question, is Israel the murderer and the aggressor or is Iran the aggressor because Iran is feeding the Palestinian people. Today the Palestinians have food in their bellies because of Iran and not Israel.

          TONY JONES: Okay. All right. It is turning into a comment but we’ll take the question.

          JULIA GILLARD: Well, in part, Palestinians have humanitarian supplies because of what Australia provides. We do a lot of aid work with the Palestinian people and I am proud that we do. We should. It is the right thing to do. But I don’t think you can, you know, stack these things up and say therefore it is right for Iran to get nuclear weapons. What I would like to see in the Middle East is I would like to see a two-state solution where Israel and the Palestinian people have their own countries with defined and secure borders and they live in peace. I actually think…

          TONY JONES: Okay. All right.

          JULIA GILLARD: …the prospect of that is not in any way advanced by Iran getting a nuclear weapon. In fact, I think the reverse is true.

          TONY JONES: All right. We’ll just take one more hand. Sorry, we’ve got so many of you have got your hands up but that young lady down in the corner there.

          AUDIENCE MEMBER: Surely it is important to acknowledge the fact that the only country to have dropped nuclear bombs on another country has been America, who prides itself as one of the leading democracies in the world? So surely it’s important to consider that fact that it is not necessarily a good indicator that democracy is right to hold nuclear weapons or that they will use them wisely. It’s a subjective opinion but something to consider.

          JULIA GILLARD: Yeah. I think this could be a whole Q&A in itself.

          TONY JONES: And we can’t let it be. So a very brief answer and we’ll move on.

          JULIA GILLARD: No, a very brief answer. The United States of America was not the aggressor in that war. That is my point. So, you know, history of World War II, the US has not the aggressor in that war. People will, until the end of time, theorise the circumstances in which a nuclear weapon should or shouldn’t be used. My point though is that I don’t want to see nuclear weapons in the hands of people who are speaking violently and aggressively towards other countries in the region in which they live.

          TONY JONES: Okay. Our next question is from Joshua Kirsh of Moriah College in Sydney.

          So in summary:

          Apparently it is OK to turn cities into glass if you are a democracy and are not the aggressor ergo Gillard giving the USA her blessing regarding the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

          So to go down the rabbit hole of logival fallacies and enter the twilight zone of the Gillard reality we have these facts.

          Iran held elections to vote in its leader (democracy), they have never attacked Israel but Israel have attacked them (not the aggressor) so if Iran did in fact have nuclear weapons by Gillards logic she whould be OK with Iran turning Tel Aviv into green glass.

          So now I have to question why is she applying sanctions on Iran in an attempt to stop Iran building a bomb (ignoring the fact there is not one shred of evidence to show they are).

          The woman is a fool of the grandest order

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            Rereke Whakaaro

            She should never have been allowed to get away with her “democracy” line.

            Just how many of the nuclear armed states are true democracies?

            Russia and China are oligarchies.

            The European Union is a bureaucracy that directs the actors in a piece of democratic theatre.

            India is an aristocracy presented as democratic theatre.

            The United States and Israel are a plutocracies presented as democratic theatre.

            Pakistan is a plutocracy that makes little pretence of being a democracy.

            The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is an autocracy (or even a monarchy if you consider the succession of Kims).

            Iran is a theocracy presented as democratic theatre.

            Answer: None on this list.

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            • #
              crakar24

              RW,

              I agree none are technically a democracy however i would take it one step further, of all the apparent democracies 3 have refused to sign the NNPT they being Pakistan, India and Israel.

              They refuse to allow UN weapons inspectors access to their clandestine weapons factories so we have no idea how much uranium they have or how many bombs they have, conversely Iran has signed the NNPT and is abiding by the terms and conditions of that treaty.

              One wonders just how stupid Gillard can be when she claims its OK for democracies to hold stockpiles of nuclear weapons when they refuse to be bound by this treaty………..whats worse is that she has given the green light to sell more of the stuff to India and therefore pissing off Pakistan in the process. I could not think of a better way to escalate a nuclear arms race between two countries what a cluster f*&^%K this woman/party is.

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  • #
    janama

    Yesterday whilst watching the Roosters batter Penrith I concluded that AGW is rather like the rugby league scrum – everyone knows it’s a pathetic farce yet no one is prepared to stand up and get it changed. Everyone just looks the other way.

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