JoNova

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Overflow thread – convoy of no confidence (thread # 2)

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500 comments to Overflow thread – convoy of no confidence (thread # 2)

  • #

    Excellent idea and good luck to all involved.

    I don’t think it is “spectacular government mismanagement” as such, I think it is a deliberate policy of destruction.

    This destruction is planned. It has not come about accidentally or through negligence.

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  • #
    Ian Hill

    One colour is conspicuous by its absence of course.

    The convoy will be a success. The media won’t be able to ignore this one.

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  • #
    DougS

    It’s a mighty effort – I wish it every success.

    I suspect though, that the beloved Julia will announce that she’s listening to the representations, or some other such platitude.

    And then, of course, do nothing – I hope I’m wrong!

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  • #
    pesadia

    This is amazing. With good luck and a following wind, istead of your misguided government demonstrating to the rest of the world that they are prepared to sacrifise the welfare of the Australian people on the AGW alter,the great Australian people can show the rest of the world that they are not prepared to stand for it,
    I will be watxhing from spain,
    The very best of lock with your quest.

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  • #
    pesadia

    Apologies for the terrible spelling in my post.

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  • #
    Thumbnail

    Thank you Jo.

    I am one ordinary Australian of many who are joining this convoy. I am sleeping in the car if I have to.

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  • #

    All the very very best, let’s hope us pommies can do even half as well.

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  • #
    Simon (UK)

    I trust that the convoy receives the support and (honest) media coverage it deserves.

    I suggest you link in with the Galileo movement if you haven’t already done so.

    Will look forward to regular news posts.

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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    I suspect though, that the beloved Julia will announce that she’s listening to the representations, or some other such platitude.

    And then, of course, do nothing – I hope I’m wrong!

    So don’t leave after being heard. Stick around until they agree, set the date and put the election machinery in motion.

    You aren’t there to be heard, you’re there to get a result!

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  • #
    Wendy

    Drive safely and know that there are those of us who would join you if we lived just a tad closer. (bit of a drive from Houston, TX) ;-)

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  • #
    Steve Schapel

    This is a very significant development. Rational argument and fact analysis are not going to win this battle. This convoy idea has a real chance to capture the imagination and make a real impact. Very exciting, and very best wishes from across the Tasman to all who are working so hard for Australia’s future.

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  • #
    grayman

    When i first saw this a couple of weeks ago,(from a commentors link here) I thought , great idea but would not get much of a response, but thankfully you Aussies sure know how to come thru in a pinch. This convoy is going to be huge. I really hope it works and the MPs, hell the whole Gov. wakes up and takes notice, if they do not, well sucks to be them !! Good Luck to all and a safe drive for all.

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  • #
    Joe V.

    I’m so glad to see Jo bring attention to this. This is real grass roots stuff. Not driven by academics or blog dwellers, but the real grafters. Their site Just Grounds looks full of real human sounding people, many who might struggle to survive.

    It’s very good of so many to give so much of their time and so much fuel , but the great thing about Big Trucks is, it’s hard to ignore them, especially when driven by the dedicated individuals who are the backbone of the Economy.

    All power to them.

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  • #
    MaryFJohnston

    This will be a costly and difficult task for participants, but it shows the depth of feeling that Australians have for their hard won democracy.

    People are fed up with the “compassion industry” which seeks to direct our hard earned tax payments towards “more deserving” causes sponsored by the almighty United Nations. The latest $590 million donation of our taxes to the Pacific Nations Climate Change relief support agency is the last straw.
    Don’t we have a greater need in this country with many people living at the point of despair.

    Australia’s internal compassion industry (excessive social security – dole etc) of the last 35 years has damaged so many people who might otherwise have led well adjusted satisfying lives when given work.

    Of course this system is wonderful for politicians. In giving to those less well of there are two inbuilt assumptions that the world is led to understand, namely; that we are a very rich and well off country with NO Internal Problems of note and secondly and most importantly that this state of affairs is due to the extraordinary capacity and intelligence of our politicians.

    Don’t think so; and this convoy gives me great hope that we can straighten things out and be a properly compassionate nation.

    Good luck on the trip and best wishes.

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  • #
    Bernal

    Way to rock you guys. The only way to win this is on the ground. May your ponderous carbon footprint kick hell out of these Jackwagons.

    What’s funny is these 60′s libtards think they are the revolutionaries.

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  • #
    Grant (NZ)

    Go the Aussies! (Except in the Rugby World Cup). There seems to be a CONSENSUS of support for this. However, I suspect that it is not the kind that Governments listen to as it would mean having to accede to the wishes of the people and that really doesn’t help with reinforcing their quest for power and control. There is a lot of ego to be overcome to make a change.

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  • #
    Bob Malloy

    Off Topic,

    National census coming up 9th August, Write on top of every page No Carbon Tax, Election Now.

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  • #
    Greg, San diego

    Good luck to all of you wonderful Aussie Patriots. We are growing the Tea Party here and are making inroads against the Socialist government of Barack Obama. May you have success in doing the same with the Socialist government of Julia Gillard.

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  • #
    RoyFOMR

    @Bob Malloy
    “National census coming up 9th August, Write on top of every page No Carbon Tax, Election Now”
    Germ of a fantastic idea there Bob. Parhaps, though, the top of the page may not be the best place as it probably won’t be entered into the data stream.
    If there’s a section on religious belief then that maybe the spot to put it e.g. Christian (NCT-EN) or Hindu (NCT-EN) or Agnostic (NCT-EN) or whatever.
    It may provide a modicum of amusement and, possibly, pride for the great-great grandchildren.
    Wish someone had suggested something like this for this year’s UK Census!

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  • #
    Bob Malloy

    RoyFOMR:
    July 28th, 2011 at 8:11 am

    If there’s a section on religious belief then that maybe the spot to put it e.g. Christian (NCT-EN) or Hindu (NCT-EN) or Agnostic (NCT-EN) or whatever.

    That could be interesting, also a message for Shorten who apparently implored people to not play games in that section, Last census thousands listed their religion as Jedi.

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  • #
    Tony Windsor

    Not THAT Tony Windsor; I am from the UK. Huge ‘Carbon footprint’ which must demonstrate the depth of feeling and anger being generated by your dearly beloved Julia. Please keep us informed of progress as our MSM is unlikely to take any interest, dominated as we are by the wretched EU and the ghastly Chris Huhne (AKA Bufhune) and his fellow travellers. I am sure that I am not alone from this side of the world in wishing this amazing initiative all the success it deserves

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  • #
    Mack I Avelli

    It’s such a shame that the convoy arrives six days after the protest rally on the resumption of parliament. Could be spectacular if both happened on the same day.

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  • #
    janama

    That’s going to be expensive for the truckies – Darwin to Adelaide is around $2,000 in fuel for those big rigs.

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  • #
    Ian Hill

    I used to work for the ABS on the Census. I can assure people that they will not get into trouble for adding extra comments, as long as they supply at least some of the information requested. The Collectors will notice the comments straight away and probably mention them up the line and if it were widespread enough it would probably make the news.

    I’m going to scrawl “NO CARBON TAX” across each page in texta. I believe there is also an on-line option to complete the form. Not sure how that one could be done – but likely there is a write-in box somewhere.

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  • #
    RoyFOMR

    @Bob 8:18
    “Last census thousands listed their religion as Jedi”
    Snap!
    I’d actually toyed with the idea of using Jedi (NCT-EN) as an example:)

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  • #
    Steve Brown

    I can’t be in Australia for this convoy of hope, but I wish all who participate the very best.
    Go For It!!!

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  • #

    It would be nice if the GG dissolved the house, but I don’t think we can count on Bryce. Not with her son-in-law being the assistant treasurer. Anyway, she probably wants this thing as much as the rest of the government.

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  • #
    Fenbeagle

    Well done Australia, you’ve still got fighting spirit.

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  • #

    Hi everyone,
    Thanks for the positive comments on the site, as the organizer of the convoy of ‘NO CONFIDENCE’ I would point out that this is being run by a COALITION OF INDUSTRY, this means that every industry in Australia can participate, there will be more cars and 4WD vehicles than trucks, although trucks are included as an industry that has been under constant attack from State and Federal Labor Governments, I call this a Positive Action Plan, I believe that lobbying,talking, petitioning, and meetings with this government are a complete waste of time, it’s time for real people power to come into play.
    I encourage everyone to be part of history and show your discontent before it’s too late.
    Mick Pattel
    Event Organizer.

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  • #

    I’ll be travelling in Convoy 4 and wouldn’t miss this historic event for quids.

    It is best that the convoys converge on Canberra after the anti co2 tax rally as the convoys are a multi issue protest which has led to no confidence in the government.

    Besides, this will ensure a compounding effect to hopefully achieve optimum pressure on the government.

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  • #
    Nigel

    I am a small business owner, although i cant really afford to, im driving from Adelaide to Canberra as im sick of Govt waste, paperwork, fees for this and fees for that, some cafes in Glenelg have to pay tens of thousands a year just to have tables on the side walk, one council even requires a permit to play music in your cafe…From pink batts, to school halls, fuel watch website, school watch website, grocery watch website, $900 handouts, live export shambles, can this Govt actually do any good???

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  • #
    Roy Hogue

    Here’s a census idea — leave it blank except write, “Refuse to participate until there’s a national election.” and send that in.

    Imagine the attention even hundreds of those would get. But don’t stop there, try for thousands.

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  • #

    Wouldn’t it be nice if “BIG OIL” sent a petrol tanker to accompany each convoy?

    Anyone remember the C W McCall song?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4Xg1zoK-_c&feature=player_detailpage

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  • #
    Colin Henderson

    I can see this coming down to a global civil war with Australia leading the charge. I don’t like the idea but what are people suppose to do when their government turns out to be the enemy.

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  • #
    connolly

    Wonderful protest initiative. The discriminatory nature of this wretched tax can be simply explained by the tax on carbon dioxide from a working truck but not from Will or Chrissie’s government subsidised carbon dioxide emitters. Although maybe “Let ‘Em Eat Cake ” Chrissie is using a sedan chair to get around these days? Best wishes to all involved. This will encourage similar grass roots uprisings in workplaces around the country. One more nail in Juliar’s political coffin.

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  • #
    Rae Logan

    I will be joining the BLUE Rockhampton to Canberra convoy from Goonidiwindi. Every ecited about being part to this event. Am hoping it will be one of those events which will be written into our history books and spoken about for generations to come. Will have my braining working over time trying to come up with memorable slogans and placards. Any suggestions?

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  • #
    allen mcmahon

    Here’s a census idea — leave it blank except write, “Refuse to participate until there’s a national election.” and send that in.

    Imagine the attention even hundreds of those would get. But don’t stop there, try for thousands.

    Not a great idea Bob. The census is used to determine the population within a certain area so that the government can allocate funds (approx $4,000 per person) for services such as health,libraries, transport, other infrastructure etc. Any comments on a census are irrelevant as the Bureau of Statistic is legally precluded from providing anything but relevant basic data to other government departments.

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  • #

    [...] The Convoy of no confidence is amassing towards Canberra [...]

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  • #

    Great to see Mick Pattel himself at #29. Brilliant idea! This is the way to make a statement!

    And to all those who’d like to come from overseas, heck, if you want to join a tour, and see the real Australia with real Australians this is your big chance. I’m sure if you can get here, we can find someone to take you :-) A once in a lifetime opportunity!

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  • #
    Nigel

    I will be taking those portable pressure can airhorns, go and buy some folks, make your presence felt and heard, and go Mick Pattel, you are an Aussie legend……

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  • #
  • #
    rjm385

    Our compatriots at Just Grounds are doing a great job and this is not going to end in a simple shrug off.

    We need to support these people and we all need to get on the Convoy’s if we can.

    I will make plans to have the 3 days off, a unique experience and hopefully it will force this government to listen to the people.

    Say YES to election now !!

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  • #
    Ian Hill

    I’m in. Just need to get my car serviced. I agree this will be an historic event not to be missed.

    Allen @ 37, a survey is done after the census to work out the level of undercounting and the population figures are adjusted and this is used to allocate funds. It is still preferable not to hand in a blank form of course.

    Just a word of caution about refusals. Technically the ABS can prosecute anyone who refuses but in reality they only go after the ringleaders – those who incite others to refuse. They could choose to “make an example” of someone however. The climate there (pun intended) may be different these days! In any case people are given a couple of chances to fill in the form without penalty even if they refuse the first time.

    I must say the timing of the census is superb and probably not something the Gillard Government had thought of. I reckon a significant proportion of households will use it to make a protest regardless of any legalities concerning the data obtained and released.

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  • #
    Projectenfour

    [ If you want to lodge a protest against the Carbobn Tax before you get to Canberra try this link:

    and pass it on to your friends

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  • #

    Something to think about while travelling -

    “Senator Brown believes we are inevitably moving toward a world community or ‘global uh, parliamentary….governance” – while deriding conspiracy talk.

    Walter Russell Mead writes in an essay,that a Global Green Carbon Treaty [GGCT] is less a treaty than a constitution for global government.The Green plan is a plan for a global constitution because the treaty will regulate economic production in every country on Earth”.

    http://www.activistpost.com/2011/07/australian-green-party-leader-admits.html

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Roy Hogue @ 32

    Great idea about the census, but let’s employ the KISS principle:

    NO ELECTION – NO CENSUS.

    .

    Allen Mcmahaon @ 37

    “Not a great idea Bob. The census is used to determine the population within a certain area so that the government can allocate funds (approx $4,000 per person) for services such as health,libraries, transport, other infrastructure etc.”

    That’s an old furphy Allen. All the “statistics” required for those allocations are already available to government departments (and others) years before they become available from the Department of Counting Meaningless Numbers to Justify Our Existence.

    .

    Allen Hill @ 42

    Not so Allen; You can legally be prosecuted for failing to fill out the form, but technically it is impossible for the department to do so.

    A person cannot be prosecuted until they have:
    1) – failed to complete a form
    2) – been served with an official notice in their name demanding they complete the form
    3) – failed to comply with the notice within the allotted time.

    Sounds simple, but to serve a person with a notice in their name requires that the department admit they know personally who didn’t fill in a form, which requires that somewhere in their paperwork they have identified people individually.

    This, however, violates the department’s own rules of confidentiality which proclaims that there IS no way to identify individuals from the records the department keeps.

    Besides, refusing to return the form until an election is called, is not the same as simply refusing to complete the form, and would make a very interesting legal defence.

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  • #
    MattB

    Ah, breaker one-nine, this here’s the Rubber Duck. You gotta copy on me, Big Ben?

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  • #
    Pete of Perth

    I wonder if the Prime Minister will turn up with a note pad, in the presence of the fawning media, to jot down the concerns of those at the rally?

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  • #
    Pete of Perth

    Forgot to add, I hope someone bakes a Banana cake & presents it to Mr Swan.

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  • #
    Ian Hill

    MV @ 44. Effectively we’re saying the same thing but interchanging the terms “technically” and “legally”. I agree it’s very hard for them to actually achieve a prosecution but it has been done.

    I submit that if it gets as far as a “Notice of Direction” (or noddies as they were called) to be issued the confidentiality of name does not apply legally. That’s different from confidentiality of data taken from the form, which is still in place. I doubt the ABS has to prove who in the household was responsible for deciding not to fill out the form.

    There’s quite a process before the NOD, which has the person’s name, kicks in. Firstly the Collector has to make an attempt to talk the householder into complying, then the Collector’s supervisor, then the Regional Director, then senior ABS staff. The Electoral Roll is available to obtain names.

    I feel I have to stick up for the ABS to some extent. Their population estimation and projection models are far better than any climate models, albeit simpler because demography is not quite as chaotic as the weather! They use lots of other department’s data to validate their output, but they are the best in the business at what they do.

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  • #
    Cate S

    G’day to one and all.
    Firstly thanks to Jo for putting this up here for your followers to read.
    I am blown away by the support here as well! Amazing, just amazing comments – thank you all.
    Great to see Mick’s comment here too – he rang this morning, and then had to do a radio interview – so the convoy word is spreading – what a precious cargo we have! Aussies – everyday, good, honest hard working Australians who are so worried about a myriad of problems in our wonderful Australia.
    This has been a very humbling experience for me to partake in…I had one person write to me about how they thought people may not participate – they themselves could not afford to go. However they support and encourage others to jump in – there is one chance in a life time to do something like this - where no one is discriminated against – and this is it! This Convoy is giving hope that the grass roots people can, and will be heard.
    That Federal MP’s of all political persuasions will listen and let the people vote again. Let Australians be sure of their votes – let the MP’s bring forward and be accountable for the policies that they push forward on our behalf.
    Stability is what our families need, leadership and accountability from all sides of politics.
    Here is my reply to one person who emailed me – i shall share it here for you all – and please, join us – this is YOUR convoy – Mick, NRFA delegates and board members, & I – we are just providing a means we hope, for Australians to be heard – the size of its success is now in your “wheels”!

    I know what you are saying, and I did have those thoughts too. But you know what? Well, I stood back and thought WOW – “we” have done something that no government could do – “we” have given people hope, a choice – to join or not, to put on banners – with the freedom to do so, what are their concerns.

    People have a voice – finally, a fair dinkum voice!

    No matter what, even with this debacle with MDBP & Live exports – the lists are endless – it was splinter groups – but this Convoy, mate, it is all Aussies being heard irrespective of political persuasions.

    To give people a glimpse of hope is the most precious gift imho. To give them a choice – so fundamentally important to individuals well being.

    If,… if together this Convoy acheives those alone – we are better people for it.

    If this convoy, finally makes the PM listen – a bonus.

    But the mateship, that is borne out of this convoy – the Australia Spirit is alive – I had doubts, now I have none.

    There are so many good people.

    There are pensioners who have made contact, and offering their full pensions to help people with fuel to drive from interstate.

    There are carers who are unable to come, yet offering money for fuel to who the organizers think should receive it

    There are individual people putting paid adds in papers, and on the radio

    There are good, good people like on this email chain, who give people hope, who continue to stand up and speak up. To add their special talents to help all people have their say…WOW…you all give strength to others – I am proud to call you all mates.

    Now that is something…
    Thats it from me – come to YOUR convoy and be heard – it is YOUR right! Cheers Cate :)

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  • #
    Rob Moore

    Hello Joanne,
    Great Map and story as per usual. Our site is quite feral by comparison but you can usually find what you want if you open enough windows.

    I will be going down the pink route in my 30ft stock truck. It is my time ,my fuel and I’m glad of a chance to vent my frustration! All we are asking for is an election now. We might have tolerated a hung parliament for another two years if we weren’t getting a UN inspired socialist- tax and power grab under the guise of Global warming.

    As Mick says -it is a protest Convoy but it won’t inconvenience other citizens as a strike would and is open to everyone to stand up for Australia just by joining in. This site has lead the way on showing up the shonkie Science and exposing the sharks but If we were jehova’s it would be 30 seconds to midnight!

    Eg. No thanks to my so called Farming rep Bodies- I have a Discussion here-

    http://justgroundsonline.com/forum/topics/the-engine-room-for-the

    It is very detailed complex and evil and comes up for the senate to tick off into law next month.They are the three Carbon Farming Initiative Bills which will allow the banks and air traders to operate from July 1st next year. This is the main game in town for the likes of Malcolm Turnbull, Robert Purvis (Wentworth Group) etc and all their associated companies that have been working towards this for a decade or more!

    The Aust taxpayer will pay billions for this bubble before it bursts in a couple of years

    Better to stop it now and STAND OUR GROUND

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  • #
    KeithH

    Good luck to everyone involved.

    The unprecedented ever-increasing level of very real anger and frustration that I’ve felt myself and seen in so many others others has finally turned into a flood and reached dam-burst time.
    All those involved have given this senior citizen (and no doubt many others) new heart and hope.
    The true Australian spirit is alive and well!

    May good fortune follow you to success and most importantly, keep you all safe!

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  • #
    Nigel

    We need our grey nomads to get involved, if you know any please put the message out there…….

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  • #
    Brian Haselum

    If only I could join in, I am so proud of the true Australian Spirit, this Government is so far up itself and so far removed from reality they need a wake up call, and by jove you guys are going to do it. GOD SPEED and GOD SAVE AUSTRALIA from this worthless GOVERNMENT.

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  • #
    Joe V..

    Pete of Perth @ 48
    Will Julia try to pawn them off like she tried to this dear Lady.
    Why did You Lie to us ?

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  • #
    theRealUniverse

    Wish theyd done similar in NZ to derail the ETS (which was political bribery jackup by a minority party NOT the greens in that case). Well done Aussie.

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  • #
    Projectenfour

    If you want to lodge a protest before heading for Canberra try this site:

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  • #
    Cate S

    Joe V- not this time – this time we have hope – and she cannot take that from us, while we have hope we have spirit – and the determination here on this site and numerous others – it would be foolish for any Federal MP from any party to ignore us – not forgetting the independents either.

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  • #
    Projectenfour

    If you want to lodge a protest before heading off on the convoy, try this site: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrmFfBMpgtc

    and show them that we mean business.

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Projectenfour @ 58

    Hi,

    Just wondering if I could ask what inspired your online name?

    It’s just that I am familiar with a “Project 10 – 4″ from the distant past and was wondering if there was any connection.

    PS – There’s no link in your post.

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  • #
    Steve Schapel

    Cate (#51)…

    Thanks a million for your comments here, and for your part in making this thing happen. You are awesome.

    I am an Australian, but living overseas now for 35 years. But finding out about this Convoy has revived my sense of pride in the country of my birth. There are many times in history when Aussies have shown their special ability to refuse to take any more crap. Here goes another example of that. Wow, I will be following this closely, and really wish you every success.

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  • #
    Rereke Whakaaro

    Nothing in the MSM in New Zealand on this … put fingers in ears, shut eyes, and say lah, lah, lah, lah, until the bad things go away.

    Australian owned media? … Mates, we have your number …

    Go Aussies.

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  • #
    Steve Schapel

    Rereke (#63)…

    Well, to be fair, it’s not really news yet. If the actual event turns out to be as big as it’s shaping up to be, then I would expect it to be reported in New Zealand.

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Projectenfour

    It’s okay – now that you posted a workable link I see where you are coming from – same place, different time.

    Great to see a revolutionary idea last two decades.

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  • #
    Cate S

    Hmm well lets do something about the MSM overseas – you are all part of this you know! Each of you can do something – contact them (media) and let them know – put Jo’s link in an email to them – this is the peoples convoy – and you know what (yes, I sometimes talk as I write!!lol tic) the MSM needs to wake up to themselves if they dont pick up on this !
    This is the age of Internet, and emails – and people have the right to be heard – so onwards fellow Aussies – and our wonderful overseas people as well who are supporting this – this is news now – because of the hope we have given back to Aussies!
    I believe that the best is yet to come when we get to Canberra – we need people more and more people to come – this is our chance to unite – please god, unite this time –
    Cheers Cate :)

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  • #
    Projectenfour

    Hi memoryvault
    Afraid its me again, after all these years. Thanks for the compliment. The protest method has been used several times over the years and the time is ripe to use it again as we won’t get a chance before they rush the legislation through Parliament.

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  • #
    Rob Moore

    I,d just like to add that the battle to get justice for our friends -Matt and Janet Thompson is far from over and they are direct victims of this juggernaut.

    Speak up against this Global Crap and you get shot down by faceless NGO’s!!??

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  • #
    memoryvault

    Projectenfour @ 67

    Do we know each other?

    I was beginning to think I was the only one left from those heady days.

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  • #
    Bush bunny

    The convoy is coming through Tamworth (Tony Windsor’s seat) on the 14th August at the same time as a No carbon tax rally is being held and also more forums. I did attend Bob Clark’s forum on the 21st July. It was great and this was announced there too.

    Just hope the Greens don’t protest to the traffic police.
    There’s fireworks ahead and now the Greens are internationally being thrashed through their suggestion to gag the MSM if they dare print anything against the scam called global warming, it will likely be soon the attention of the world press and media. Tory Aardvark’s website has a great pic of Julia doing what looks like a Nazi salute.

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  • #
    theRealUniverse

    Rereke Whakaaro: @63 TVNZ and RNZ and TV3 (stooge propaganda merchants) still sucking the Govt kumara over there?

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    Bush bunny

    Cate S @ 66, I am about to add a comment on the Tory Aardvark site after his comment about Julia and the Greens trying to shut up the press. It will circulate don’t you worry. Maybe WUWT might be interested too, eh.

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    Ian Hill

    Something to chuckle about: re the link from projectenfour @ 60 – did anyone notice the recommendation not to give the Collector your address? But they are standing at your front door!

    Your name will be worked out sooner or later. Neighbours often volunteer such things.

    I disagree with it being a waste of time writing on the census form. The Collectors have to check each page for completeness. They will quickly notice a consistent and widespread protest. Although a machine reads the answers someone has to feed them in.

    I agree a widespread refusal could quickly be effective in the short term as the team in the field attempt to get a complete coverage. If even 10% of the population refused that would throw a spanner in the works. However the full followup process for refusals can take months, long after the CO2 tax may become law. It’s simply not the biggest priority of the ABS.

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    Cate S

    Update on Just Grounds – we have now had to add more routes – there are 11 in total – these are the final routes, and will not be changed (new map Jo? :) )
    Cheers Cate :)

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    Good luck with your effort! But be forewarned – the press and the left are going to label you racist homophobe bigotted neo nazis. Because you dared to exercise your rights in a non-violent way that was not in conformity with the left’s violent tactics.

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    chrism

    I love to see people doing things like this to ‘give themselves a bigger media space, and hopefully get some to think.
    I am skeptical tho’. Hey that’s our side of the fence eh?
    I wonder if borrowing from the Greens playbook — tho’ I really don’t like the way they’ve done it– and targeting Oakeshott and Windsor’s electorate , in some clever way could
    get these two Quislings to support the majority for a change ?
    I think the lunatics that are in charge of the asylum in Canberra are resistant to common sense and the popular voice.

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    memoryvault

    Ian Hill @ 73

    “Something to chuckle about: re the link from projectenfour @ 60 – did anyone notice the recommendation not to give the Collector your address? But they are standing at your front door!

    Your name will be worked out sooner or later. Neighbours often volunteer such things.”

    Your “public servant” slip is showing, Ian.

    The reason why one doesn’t volunteer any information to the census collector is that it is impossible for the the Bureau of Silly Numbers to issue a “Notice of Direction” on a person to fill out a census form without legally establishing that the person hasn’t already filled one out.

    Since this requires that the Department of Meaningless Statistics keep records of “who” they issued forms to, and “who” they collected completed forms from (IE keeping personal details of issue and collection), and since this runs counter their to their own published charter and to all the propaganda that they “don’t keep personal information”, it places them between a rock and hard place.

    As such it is up to the department to prove a person hasn’t already completed a census without admitting it has the means to determine who did and who didn’t (which everybody knows they can do but publicly they can’t admit to).

    Since this is impossible without admitting it has violated its own charter of privacy the only time they can issue a successful Notice of Direction is when somebody:

    1) – fails to complete a census form, and
    2) – admits to a servant of the Department of Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics (including police officers etc) that they didn’t complete the census form, and
    3) – gives their name and address as part of their official “confession” to not completing the census form.

    Outside of these conditions it is impossible for the department to even issue a “Notice of Direction” without admitting grand and ongoing violation of its privacy charter.

    Before we get into a bunfight over this, might I add I am not spouting mere personal opinion here. As someone intimately involved in the original Project 10-4 protest in the 90′s I was subjected to no less than nine legal challenges by the Office of Bent Numbers including two “Notices of Direction” – none of which ever even made it into court.

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    Bush bunny

    Tory Aardvark knows and will make comments. I just hope
    Christine Milne and Co don’t ban the convoy before it’s ever started. This act of passive resistance is very similar to
    Ghandi’s walk to the sea against the British Raj’s tax on
    salt. It worked too.

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    FWIW, this protest is getting some visibility in the USA… Perhaps we Yanks can do something similar…

    At any rate, you folks are first up to bat, and we’re wishing you the best of luck with it. It’s time for the average Joe, Jane, or Dundee to be heard.

    E.M.Smith

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    Projectenfour

    Maybe we should move this Census stuff to a separate thread. It should not detract from the Convoy discussions.

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    Ian Hill

    MV @ 77

    Before we get into a bunfight over this, might I add I am not spouting mere personal opinion here. As someone intimately involved in the original Project 10-4 protest in the 90′s I was subjected to no less than nine legal challenges by the Office of Bent Numbers including two “Notices of Direction” – none of which ever even made it into court.

    Congratulations on your victory over the public service.

    I’ve never heard of the Project 10-4. Some background info would be useful.

    Just so you know where I’m coming from, I worked on the 1986, 1991 and 1996 censuses and left the ABS soon after. I refused to fill out the 2001 form. A Group Leader came to see me. I politely invited him in for a chat and after two minutes he knew I was a lost cause. It went no further. I filled out the 2006 form.

    One of my jobs in 1986 was to go through all the refusals in SA and work out who to recommend for possible prosecution. From memory four people were fined, and they still had to fill out the form. By 1991 the system was different and one state office would have had that role for all of Australia.

    Your point is absolutely correct. Anyone can get out of filling out a form. Going AWOL on Census night is a good way and some people go to great lengths to do so. The ABS doesn’t keep track of people from one Census to the next. It only keeps track of dwellings. Certainly the form asks where you usually live, but that’s so they can work out the correct population for local government areas and therefore correct funding arrangements.

    The threat of legal action is only a deterrent to ensure the figures are as accurate as possible. The system works well.

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    Ian Hill

    Yes, go for it Jo. I agree I’d rather focus on the Convoy, but things keep coming up about the census.

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    Cate, New Map. Done :-) Fabulous news.

    But where are the Tasmanians? There’s just that bit of water…

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    [...] then delivered a roundhouse kick to Australia’s common sense and the Convoy of No Confidence was born: Convoy number 1. Please put BROWN balloon/streamers to show your convoy. Convoy number [...]

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    Bloke down the pub

    Good luck to everyone on this epic journey, only wish I could be with you but don’t think my car would make the journey from the uk

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    Rereke Whakaaro

    Steve Schapel: #64

    … to be fair, it’s not really news yet …

    First law of journalism … never let the truth interfere with a good story.

    Second law of journalism … never confuse your readers with the facts.

    Third law of journalism … never believe that your readers can actually read. Corollary: A word is only worth a milli-picture.

    All said in jest, of course ;-)

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    Hi everyone,
    I noticed that there are a few people unable to join the convoy but want to help, could I suggest that you all email politicians on all sides of politics voicing your concerns and support for the peoples convoy of NO CONFIDENCE, that way they can’t say they didn’t know about the discontent within the Australian community.
    I’m pleased to report that the support for this protest is gaining momentum at an amazing rate and by the time we move off camp there will be no-one home, I think Australia will stop and that would be the best result.
    I’m so proud be an Australian and so proud that we have so many patriot’s willing to go the distance for democracy, congratulations.
    Together we,re better
    Mick Pattel

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    Ian Hill

    Is anything happening from Alice Springs?

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    Hi Ian,
    At this stage all ‘Alice’ supporters will feed into the convoy coming down from Katherine, unless someone wishes to lead a convoy from the Alice to meet the convoy at the ‘Three Ways’ then follow on to Canberra from there.
    Mick

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    Cate S

    Hi Jo, thanks for the map update – much appreciated by all.
    The Tassie folk whom have made contact are joining at Melbourne. Most of those whom have contacted, just wanted to know where are starting – I guess you could run a red line from Melbourne to Hobart (? – is that where the Cat comes across?) So people know.
    Thanks everyone for your support – hope there are a few more joining your convoy’s!
    Yes, PhilJourdan # 75 – yes, of course we will all be called names, no doubt stunts to try and discredit the convoys – bring it on I say – good people shall stand their ground and turn their wheels for democracy – peacefully, and with good intentions for our wonderful Australia.
    Its a good day to be alive isn’t it?! Yeah!
    Cheers Cate :)

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    brc

    Not sure what the plan is once you reach Canberra, but I would say parking the rigs up around the ring-round around parliament and then everyone decamping on the front lawn would be the best bet. The entire parliament house ring-fenced in with vehicles, all locked and parked bumper-to-bumper would not only make a great visual, it would play havoc with politicians trying to come and go.

    It’s absolutely vital that the vehicles don’t all turn around and go home until a concession is granted. The legality of this could get stretched, but they won’t dare try and tianamen-square their way through it by trying to tow vehicles and arrest people.

    In the UK a few years back there was a blockade of fuel supplies in protest of fuel taxes. It worked exceedingly well but if you ask me they all folded just when a better deal looked imminent.

    Just keep it clean, family friendly and cheerful and it will be impossible for the government to ignore and talk and hand-wave around. Leave the ‘bitch’ and ‘liar’ signs at home and stick with ‘no confidence, election now’. My only hope is that a red-faced Bob Brown muddles his way through some senile arguments and lets his inner totalitarian really slip in front of the cameras.

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    [...] in history quaking in its boots as it inevitably gathers momentum. I’d like to be there myself so will be offering my HR licence to drive a truck down. http://joannenova.com.au/2011/07/the-convoy-of-no-confidence-is-amassing-towards-canberra/#more-1627… [...]

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    Steve Schapel

    Rereke (#86): “in jest, of course”

    It’s the grain of truth within the jest that has me normally avoiding newspapers, TV, and radio. But today I made an exception, partly as a result of our discussion here, when I sat down at a table in a Wellington cafe and found a newspaper open at a large stunning photo of Julia Gillard in traditional prayer posture. Priceless. I believe it was today’s Dominion Post.

    Then I made the mistake of reading the (rather lengthy) article. No class. Basically it was “What’s all the fuss about in Australia? They’re so much better off there than most other places. Some stirrers are having a disproportionate success in sowing discontent.” He didn’t seem to notice an irony in using as an example the strong demand from China for Australian coal. And then, the statement that poor innocent Julia’s carbon tax is “inevitable”, given the rising temperatures and sea levels. Idiot.

    So, thanks for the reminder, Rereke, and next time I see a newspaper I will revert to my previous habit of finding something better to look at.

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    Paul Jarman

    Hi guys , can’t say I agree with your protest and I am a driver of over 25 years experience and a former owner driver. The industry as a whole doesn’t necessary see it your way either.

    The road transport industry like any other and has a duty to limit it’s pollution unless you are a denier then of course then a do nothing approach is preferable. Unlike the Liberal Party’s policy which is to spend up to 13 billion a year of tax payers money to subsidise polluters. Thats called indirect taxation !

    And the guy who is coming from the top end and will waste 4000 litres of fuel doing so how bloody stupid, The right wingers called on the govt to do something about the cattle industry and they did. Gillard fixed it in 3 weeks. Howard took 2 years to fix the live sheep exports !!!!!

    So don’t pretend this is anything more than an anti govt whinge by a bunch of people who are pissed off that they guy didn’t win the last election !

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    Will

    I believe all the northern convoys should go through Sydney & be on a go slow,taking up all lanes in our direction.Lets see how they like a disruption to their lives.SAVE LIVE EXPORT!!!

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    Cate S

    Hello Paul Jarman #95
    Wow, what an interesting comment! Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and it shall be respected for what it is :)
    Now, I am not a “truck driver” however, I do pay registration, so i will be attending this convoy in our truck.
    Just thought i would share this will all other readers, and I do have permission to reproduce it here as well.
    These are some of the issues as other owner drivers of interstate would like to see government address as well. I suppose it just shows how bureaucrats and governments have managed to divide and conquer all industries. Thank heavens for the “Convoy of No Confidence in the Federal Government – Coalition of Industries”.

    Hi Cate you want to know what the problems are, well I was invited to give a speech to an NTC Forum in Sydney about those problems and this is what I presented:

    Good morning Ladies and Gentlemen my name is Brian Turpie and I would like to present to you a drivers perspective on the issues that confront the road transport industry today. I have been an interstate driver and owner-driver for 37 years I am here to represent the drivers who are the quiet achievers that seem to have been forgotten in the debates that play out in the boardrooms and committees that claim to represent the entire transport industry. The most recent of such committees is the Safe Rates Safe Roads debate. I note with disappointment the refusal of the mainstream transport associations and employers to recognise that we have major problems in the areas of safety and remuneration. How they can continue to hold that line in the debate is beyond me. No fewer than five government funded studies, three coronial inquests and various overseas studies over the last 15 years have shown that an undeniable link exists between remuneration and road safety.

    For too long transport companies have used the driver remuneration as a source of cost containment, over the last 20 years there has been a rise in CPI of over 120% yet wages for drivers have only risen on average by 50%, so each year we have lost ground and have had to work longer and harder to maintain wage parity. That’s why the argument against increased remuneration by our transport industry associations shows they either don’t understand the workings of the long haul sector or they don’t care about our driver’s welfare. If drivers were paid for ALL the work they do and paid fairly there would be no need for anyone to be working in excess of 90 hours a week in 2011, the continuing decline in “real” wage spending power has led to most drivers having to work these hours in order to achieve a reasonable wage outcome.

    Remuneration has declined steadily over the last 25 years and with that decline comes a corresponding decline in the quality of the candidates that seek driving positions. There has been an alarming decline in driver licence testing to meet the challenges of today’s driver shortages but I put it to you that there is no shortage of qualified drivers in this country, there is however a shortage of experienced operators willing to drive under current industry remuneration terms and conditions. Recent talk of recruitment drives offshore are not the answer. We need experienced drivers to operate on our highways and trying to solve one problem by creating another will prove to be counterproductive. We need to make the industry more attractive as a career option and 90 hour working weeks for poor remuneration isn’t going to entice the best candidates.

    I know these are harsh words but the truth of the matter is that our most experienced operators have left the industry in their droves since 2008 and that is because there was no way they were going to embrace working a 14 hr day/84 hour a week work diary with no corresponding increase in salary. When the new fatigue management regulations came into force in 2008, there was no corresponding increase in a driver’s salary. Most long distance driver’s work on a kilometre rate and the extra 12 hours are utilised in loading/ unloading for which most of us have never been paid anyway. The new fatigue regime just legitimised what has been happening in the industry over the last three decades and that is more unpaid work and no increase in salary.

    The transport industry has fought amongst itself for too long, always taking the easy way out and never confronting the REAL issue that has hamstrung its ability to achieve the goals that we are still debating here today. That REAL issue is freight charges that reflect true costs and margins. Transport customers have been relentless in their pursuit of lower and lower freight costs and while the industry has fought amongst themselves, freight customers have been the big winners and have reaped huge dividends at our expense. The time has come to end the misconception that low freight rates represent world’s best practice because the reality is low freight rates equate to unacceptable road safety outcomes and encourage dangerous behaviours. Commercial pressure to get the job done has forced the industry to try and operate on the very edge of financial viability whilst being faced with unrealistic regulations and heavy handed enforcement measures. Low freight rates force everyone in the transport chain to cut corners be that on driver wages, truck maintenance, and superannuation or tax obligations. Transport companies are being forced to pressure their drivers to work unrealistic hours and the OH&S ramifications of these pressures are being ignored.

    54 of my fellow workmates are dying every year in fatigue related crashes and that is something everyone must commit to reduce. We can and must do better. I have no objection in principal to a 14 hr work day but there should be more thought given to how such a regime should operate. The standard 12 hours regime should be retained, and ALL other schemes incorporating longer hours should be subject to national regulator approval. 84 hours a week is stretched by at least ten hours per week doing “other work” that doesn’t show in the diary and in excess of 90 hours a week extracts a huge toll on a driver’s health and his ability to achieve a healthy work/life balance. There has been a recent shift by some forward thinking transport companies to 14 hour days, 4days on 4days off working weeks and truck sharing and the like and that is a welcome sign to see that some among us are starting to think of a better way of managing driver welfare. Early reports from drivers indicate that they are more relaxed and coping with the day to day stresses of the job much better.

    The need for a national regulator to oversee the challenges that face us has never been more abundantly clear. The new national regulator should be responsible for any approval process to work outside the parameters of standard hours that apply to the day to day operation of road transport. The 84 hour a week work diary has no place in the 21st century workplace. Drivers have to be allowed to recover from the effects of fatigue and no driver should be asked to work more than 4 shifts of 14 hours without a minimum of a 24 hour reset rest break. For anyone to drive and work in excess of 12 hours there must be far greater scrutiny of the terms of that arrangement.

    I don’t see my employer as the enemy, I know first-hand as an ex owner driver and small fleet owner the enormous pressure that is placed on transport companies large and small to keep their freight rates low. Survival is foremost on their mind and they often have to swallow a bitter pill and forgo a rate increase or lose work. But the time has come to overhaul the way the industry operates and we will need to work together to make the changes that will see the industry prosper.

    So how can we go about improving the transport industries ability to achieve full cost recovery? How can you pay drivers a fairer wage without losing work to unscrupulous operators working outside the boundaries of the law? Well the NTC is currently examining Electronic Work Diaries and GPS positioning, On-Board mass monitoring and the issue of Safe Rates/Safe Roads and the day has come for us to look at this technology as a means to create a level playing field to help enhance the economic viability and safety obligations the industry has struggled to come to terms with. The suggestion that fatigue and speed regulations need to be given time to work is a transport association cop out, they have become lazy and counterproductive and after two years it is beyond argument that these measures have failed. In that two year period more than fifty transport operations have failed among them some of our most respected operators. Why have they failed? Because no consideration was given to how and who would pay the cost of these added burdens, not only to transport companies but also their drivers. The road transport industry has reached a watershed moment in its history. We need bold new leadership not the same old rhetoric. We need a new plan as the old one has failed dismally. It’s time to face up to the future and set the wheels in motion to meet the challenges that confront us and the new national regulator is one important step forward. Thank You.

    And another, not so long, I apologize for the length of this post, however this needs to be brought out as one of the many issues as well.

    Well as for putting five points forward I’ll give it a go for ya. but you’ll quickly find that the problems in the transport industry and peoples views on them are as varied as the industry itself. From an Owner drivers point of view here’s mine,
    1) Government taxes are way to high for anyone to remain competitive and make a profit.
    2) Government registration is to high for what we get from it with no new roads or maintenance on existing roads.
    3) Log book laws need to be seriously addressed allowing drivers to stipulate when they are tired not when a book tells them to sleep!
    4) Because roads are in such poor shape we get detoured from load limits and restricted by lower speed limits yet still expected to get it there on time the way we used to. ever tried to squeeze 16 hours into 12 and have a record of it to show the cops,DOT,RTA,VIcRoads etc etc etc so they can say how naughty you are and unsafe you are on the road from fatigue laws yet after giving you the fine and in QLD taking points off your license for it they then deem you safe to carry on your way because they’ve raised their revenue from you for the day.
    5) as stated above to many enforcement agencies with to many conflicting laws that make it so that half the time the guy booking you doesn’t really comprehend what it is for either. one set of rules one agency to enforce them. Dont forget no demerit points taken from log book fines in QLD.

    Probably could come up with something better but given I’m half asleep I thought I’d whack a quick one in for ya. notice I never mentioned rates? It’s up to us to say no to unsustainable rates it’s basic cost profit and break even, those that cant work that out shouldn’t be doing it

    Cheers Cate :)

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    Nigel

    Paul Jarman, interesting comments mate, especially the ones on a wastetfull govt, and the industry not wanting this as a whole, and also the bit about the libs spoending $13 billion on subsidising polluters, hmmmmmmmmmm, im confused, isnt it Gillard/Brown who will be collecting carbon tax only to subsidise the every day person by $55 Billion, and isnt it Gillard/Brown who wasted $Billions$ on school halls, pink batts, $900 bogan handouts, fuel watch website, grocery watch website, miss handling of illegals and misshandling of the live cattle industry, Gillard did not fix it in 3 weeks, some cattle boys nearly necked themselves over the months of waiting…..Oh, i nearly forgot, Gillard/Brown now wants a congestion tax, i fear [snip] may result such is the anger towards these useless cretins…………

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    Ian Hill

    Paul Jarman, Bob Brown won the last election, not the Liberal’s nor Labor’s guy.

    Over 80% of the population don’t want the carbon tax. Seeing as Greens’ voters who do want it make up another 15%, that means virtually all Labor voters don’t want it either. Everyone’s angry because they didn’t get to have a vote on it. If we have an election to vote on the carbon tax and it gets up then we have to take it on the chin. This is nothing to do about being a “denier” as you put it. This is about the lack of democracy. We can all feel what it’s like to be in a dictatorship and we don’t like it.

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    MattB

    Ian how come you were not this outraged when we didn’t get a carbon price under Rudd, given that we voted and both parties said they’d introduce one?

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    KeithH

    Jo Nova @@ 83.

    This Tassie would love to have been part of such a historic event but will sadly be heading home on the Ferry (pre-booked) on the night of Aug. 15. I’m sure some Taswegians will make it!

    However, I’ll be taking up the suggestion of Mick Pattel @ 87 and stirring all the pollies I can contact. Might even find the opportunity to give the ABC another good nudge, as they’re still responding to my various submissions on errors and bias.

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    Ian Hill

    Simple MattB, I was blissfully ignorant of the whole global warming debate until by chance I saw Plimer vs Monbiot on TV just after the Copenhagen conference in December 2009. I recognised Plimer because I’d read his book “Telling Lies For God” and I watched the program. I’d voted for Rudd, I’d voted for the Greens in SA. I was stunned to learn that the Greens had any involvement in this. It was one of those life changing moments as it turned out. If I’d flicked through the channels a minute earlier I may have missed the whole thing and you would never have heard of me.

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    MattB

    You watched Plimer v Monbiot and came out on Plimer’s side??? Also that must have been quite some rock you’d been under pre Dec 2009!

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    Wayne, s. Job

    I also shall join a convoy, in my seventh decade the only other time in my life I felt like [snip expression of frustration] was when Whitlam destroyed our economy in two years. To RAE LOGAN who asked for a good slogan for this convoy I could think of no better than ” THIS IS THE WINTER OF OUR DISCONTENT” That shall be on my vehicle.

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    MattB

    “This is the winter of our carbon content” maybe?

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    Ian Hill

    No rock Matt, just never been interested in the topic or politics before. There will still be lots more like me out there.

    Incidentally, I just received my census form and my Collector’s name is Julia. I couldn’t believe it! Had a laugh about it and a nice chat. Be gentle with the Collectors folks.

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    MaryFJohnston

    I know how you feel Wayne; Whitlam, Kemlani, Grassby and so on.

    We were living in Bill Morrison’s electorate at the time ( nice bloke – wrong associates) and he lost his seat by about 30 votes; two of which were from my wife and I.

    We were personally diddled by the Whitlam mob; such hypocrites and not much integrity.

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    Pete H

    Good to see the Aussies getting off their asses and doing what needs to be done. Shame the same is not happening in the U.K.!

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    Cate S:
    July 29th, 2011 at 8:36 am

    It is good you are aware of the hatred to come. Best of luck. What you do will reverberate in other countries and for that I thank you for your dedication and committment.

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    Popeye

    This is just such a GREAT idea and I wish it every success.

    I know some people are unable to join any of the convoys or make it to Canberra on their own.

    What about this suggestion for those who can’t make it on any of the routes (as I can’t due to work committments).

    Anybody who can’t make ANY of the convoys COULD make up a multi coloured “ribbon montage” of all of the convoy colours and fly them off their antennnas (or whatever) over the same days as the convoys are in transit to demonstrate their support of the protest.

    BTW – Matt B – You’re a paid troll!!

    Cheers,

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    Ian Hill

    One thing I’d like to know – should I go ahead and book somewhere to stay in Mildura and Harden, or are we expected to all stick together overnight? I’ll sleep in my car if necessary.

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    We encourage people to make the best arrangements on over night stays to suit themselves, if you can afford to stay in a motel I’m sure the motels in that town would appreciate the extra income

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    “……One day we wake up and realise we are living in a nightmare and we have been for a long time.

    “It’ll never happen here” and “We’ve taken every precaution” becomes “When did it happen” and “How did it get to this point…….”?

    http://ponerology.blogspot.com/2010/01/pathocracy-brave-new-world-or-1984.html

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    scott

    I agree with an earlier post. Big Business should jump on board and have free fuel stops for the convoys to fill up so it doesnt cost an arm and a leg to get from the other side of Aus.

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    Ian Hill

    Thanks Mick. Found suitable accommodation at Mildura, Cootamundra and Queanbeyan.

    I’ll wing it coming home.

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    Steve Schapel

    More good ideas popping up… I just saw the suggestion at http://www.stopgillardscarbontax.com/2011/07/return-to-sender.html that Australians should “Return To Sender” when you get the carbon tax propaganda packs.

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    Paul Jarman

    Cate S @ 97

    Whilst I agree with some of that post it’s certainly not anything to do with Climate Change and our responsibility towards mitigating the damage we cause. I clean up the mess at my place so why not as a nation clean up the mess our country and industries make? Not a hard concept to grasp really.

    It’s also basically incorrect in a few areas as wages have risen in many cases well over 100% in the last 20 years in line or above CPI in most cases. Yes there is a shortage of drivers caused in part by the explosion in our national freight task AND the explosion in the mining industry. I know a few ex drivers now working in the mines for big bucks. Transport operators can’t compete with wages like that, I earn in excess of $100k now as a local driver but there is no way they are going to stretch it to $160k + to compete with the mines.

    As an industry we have many issue as every industry has so lets not kid ourselves that we are somehow a bit different, whilst many of our problems are unique a lot of them are of our own making. We complain about rates then those amongst us cut them even more!!! We complain about government intervention in all areas yet demand them to make rules and laws to help us. We can’t have it both ways either we submit to regulation and accept all the nasties that go with it or we accept the cowboys and sharks running riot.

    Back to the topic , as far as I am concerned the protest is no different to the insane Tea Partiers in the US who are now holding the US government and almost the world hostage to their insane will. You don’t have industry support and I for one will be letting as many people know that this protest is nothing more than a politicly motivated anti govt whinge.

    If you backing your stance in CC on the likes of Monkton and Plimer your backing the wrong horse I assure you. Both totally discredited charlatans.

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    Paul Jarman

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-26/politics-feeds-despair-in-nation-world-can-envy-william-pesek.html

    Excellent article @ Bloomberg which draws some parallels with the US Tea Party movement. Interesting he says our economy is booming yet we are as miserable as the yanks and blames it on the toxic opposition to ANYTHING the govt proposes for the sake of it.. It’s been good to see the ALP have had 4 positive polls in a row now with their numbers returning to 47-53. Hopefully we will see 50-50 within a few months and the back of Tony Abbott.

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    brian turpie

    Well Paul Jarman I don’t know you or who you work for but you would be the only local driver in Australia earning 100k plus who are you trying to kid? If you really are concerned as you say about the so called mess Why don’t you stop making it? sSee that would be a direct positive reaction but I don’t think charging me for the mess I don’t make will for one minute change global warming>
    ? You only have to look at our so called political leaders rocking in to parliament every morning in their gas guzzling V8s and flying in on privately chartered RAAF flights to realise that these idiots are so far from reality that their sun would never shine anyway. No I’m not a Coalition supporter or Labor or Green nor independent. I vote for the only candidate that never fails to deliver Yes that’s right the Donkey you think that’s a waste of a vote ? No the donkey never promises me anything, just like the major parties He never listens to me, Just like the major parties The donkey never reneges on a promise he never made So the Donkey is the only candidate currently worth voting for because he always fails to do anything for me Just like the major parties. So paul until you do the research about the transport industry and safe rates safety targets and improvements you might be wise to just voice your concern as a citizen because clearly you don’t have and intimate knowledge of transport issues

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    Cate S

    Paul Jarman @ 117
    Well buddy, you had better take up the rates with the truckies that wrote that! lol I just gave them an avenue to be heard – irrelevant to me if you agree with it or not :) Each person is entitled to their opinion.
    The exact same as each Australian has the right to attend and join in the peaceful “Convoy of No Confidence in the Federal Government – Coalition of Industries”
    So I guess, in essence your post says that you object to people peacefully exercising their democratic right to join a convoy, that does not discriminate against anyone who joins it?
    There are many issues why people are joining this convoy – I wonder have you missed that point? :)
    Now you wrote,
    “Back to the topic , as far as I am concerned the protest is no different to the insane Tea Partiers in the US who are now holding the US government and almost the world hostage to their insane will. You don’t have industry support and I for one will be letting as many people know that this protest is nothing more than a politicly motivated anti govt whinge.
    If you backing your stance in CC on the likes of Monkton and Plimer your backing the wrong horse I assure you. Both totally discredited charlatans“.
    Could you please point out the words “protest” in any of the releases put out about this Convoy? Also, could you please explain to the good people who are participating and supporting , and giving the opportunity for all to join the convoy, er..why they have and “insane will” (not to mention where have you obtained the word “hostage” from ! Abhorant!) I think you should apologise for the innuendo on good people sir!
    Could you please notify Mick Pattel the President of NRFA – and let him know that he must have been “dreaming” that all the phone calls, pledges, and support from MANY industries are just a figment of his imagination (and obviously many others! lol)
    Could you please provide proof of the “discredited charlatans”…nah, dont bother – reputable sources for this seem to be in short supply, or so I hear :)
    Look buddy, go your hardest – Australians have the right to join in a peaceful Convoy, they have the right to be heard on a myraid of issues that are important to them – that is the Australian way – so if you dont like it, dont look!
    Well of course it is political! Duh! The politicians pass the legislation – do they not (please dont answer that – rhetorical of course!)? Australians do not feel secure for a myriad of reasons – and they need to be able to speak up – if you wish to take peoples hope away, good on you – what a hero!
    Oh, and for the record – I have not given any indication of my own political persuasions whilst promoting these Convoys – as one helping, it is not MY right to stop others whom are at opposites politically with my personal views to do that.
    That Sir,is democracy! Good day to you :)

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    brian turpie

    I would also like to challenge Paul Jarman to put up his research on wages and conditions for interstate truck drivers. You say Paul that in fact wages have risen ABOVE CPI where do derive that information from? You also claim that wages have risen well over 100% in 20 years Again where do you get that information from? Are you just guessing that?Let me point something out to you Paul I have presented well researched and documented studies on pay and conditions in the Australian longhaul industry to the NTC,the DEEWR safe rates inquiry, Fair Pay Aust, the Prime Minister and the Australian Transport Council so don’t you dismiss my submission above as incorrect without the slightest hint of credibility on your behalf. You see that IS what is wrong with government now they like you don’t read or understand the advice and evidence presented like you they dismiss that and claim that it couldn’t be right well it is right and if you don’t have the evidence to back your claims you would do well to stick to subjects you do know like?

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    Paul Jarman: #117
    July 30th, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    Plus

    Paul Jarman: #118
    July 30th, 2011 at 1:29 pm

    Responded to by

    Cate S: #119
    July 30th, 2011 at 1:45 pm

    And that ladies and gentleman is a classic smack on the back of the head.

    Well done Cate.

    You’re well out of your depth Jarman

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    Paul Jarman

    I havn’t a problem protesting at all in fact I have done so in the past against Howards workchoices which the transport industry attacked with a vengence which resulted in a big win eventually. But get your facts right. Wages are very strong in the transport industry yet things are tough for subbies due to competition. There is always some grub willing to undercut you for a job this I know from experience having had my own for a number of years. Been offered $350 for a load south ex Brisbane before but refused to cart it, yet someone always does. The coalition believe in market based solutions so I don’t see them setting rates anytime soon.

    Please don’t try and insult peoples intelligence by declaring this isn’t a political protest. The aim is to force regime change by those opposed to the democraticly elected government. 160 bills have been passed by parliament and as long as the PM has the confidence of the house there is no mechanism under our current system to force change.

    I do defend the right of anyone to be heard on any issue as long as the truth is being told and whilst I am not happy some members of the industry I love that provides me and my family with a good income is at odds with my personal viewpoints I respect your wishes to an alternative point of view.

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    Paul Jarman

    One last thing before I head off to work… when friends and I wanted regime change we waited until the appointed date to excercise our democratic right to turf Howard why then do the right believe they can attempt to bully the left instead of waiting for an election ?

    Tip: When your side loses an election it sucks, it’s supposed to suck …. I had 11 years of being pissed off with Howard and his band of thugs but I accepted the ballot box process. It’s not a double or nothing contest until you get a win.

    cheers

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    Paul Jarman

    Sorry Brian off to work now but will address your post in depth tomorrow. For now currently $36 ph 1990 less than $12. Long haul rates now approx .35cpk 1990 16-18cpk , in 1994 I was on 21.5 cpk.

    PS: It has nothing to do with the current issue of the right wanting regime change to be replaced by a Govt that is for pushing down wages, doesn’t make sense.

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    Paul Jarman

    You also have to look at tax rates and purchasing power as well Brian Fuel is an excellent example, costs me far less per week to run a car now than 20 years ago in real terms.

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    Nigel

    Paul Jarman: This is not about being upset about loosing an election, as most here have already said, we dont support any party, but i for one sure as hell dont support a Govt that wastes as much as these clowns, and putting a motion forward that could be financial suicide for the country WITHOUT asking the people, clearly the majority do not want it, and that includes 62% (latest morgan poll) of greens voters, and on your democratic right to turf out Howard, what about the democratic rights of voters, the Liberals won more than any other party at the last election, but ONLY with prefernces did Labor succeed, how is that deomcracy? The country was held to ransome by a couple of individuals to decide who governs the country, no wonder people let fly [snip] because they are at the end of their rope.

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    Nigel

    @ Ian Hill, are you in SA? If so please find me on onjustgrounds, there is a few of us leaving from Adelaide on the 20th.

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    ED TURNER

    ALL I CAN SAY IS THANK YOU TO J.L FOR BRINGING THIS TO MY NOTICE.I WILL BE THERE EVEN IF I HAVE TO RIDE MY PUSH BIKE.THANK GOD.THE PEOPLE OF AUSTRALIA ARE DOING SOMETHING TO RID US OF THESE PARASITES

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    ED TURNER

    THANK YOU J.L.

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    Kersebleptes

    You lot going on about live exports to Indonesia- you are aware that Indonesia will be stopping the trade permanently in 2014 anyway?

    Nothing political to do with that- just that Indonesia has been saying for years that by 2014 they expect to be self-sufficient in beef production, and will no longer require the light tropical-style Australian cattle that our live export trade to Indonesia is composed of.

    So unless northern producers can figure out how to produce southern-style Angus beef from their properties, they won’t be selling much to Indonesia after 2014- no matter what any Australian Government might do.

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    Bushfire Bill

    Amazing how many people don’t understand the way our political system and Constitution work.

    We have elections every 3 years and 3 months maximum, and earlier if the PM of the day so advises the Governor-General.

    If lies, changes of plan, mistruths, misleading statements, broken promises etc. by politicians were the determinant of when we had elections, we’d be having them every three days (forget three years).

    There WAS an election last year and Labor won government from it by convincing the Independents that their plan for government was better. Pretty basic stuff. Abbot’s Coalition had EXACTLY the same opportunity as Labor did, and they blew it. Simple as that. And there are still two years to go before the next one must be held. Again: basic.

    Trucks are out of the Carbon Tax/ETS package. Rob Oakeshott made sure of that. All credit to him. If you don’t believe me, read the legislation instead of listening to the ratbag shock jocks on 2GB: http://climatechange.gov.au/government/submissions/clean-energy-legislative-package.aspx

    The government has indicated that this situation will persist for two years, until 2014, when heavy vehicle fuel will be subject to the Carbon Tax/ETS. However, as it stands now, the actual bill does NOT include trucks.

    The only way it can be applied to trucks is if the law is changed after the 2013 election. If Labor loses it, it is to be assumed the law will not be changed (and may be repealed altogether). If the result is a hung parliament, similar to today’s, the Independents will not allow the law to be changed. In both these cases, trucks are OUT.

    The only way that trucks will be IN, is if Labor wins the 2013 election. And if they win it, then that’s about as democratic a decision as can be made. It will be the people who have voted for the inclusion of trucks in the Carbon Tax/ETS.

    Whatever happens, the unalterable fact at the moment is that Labor is in government. They have passed 165 out of 165 bills presented to the parliament. Abbott and the Coalition have not been able to stop even ONE bill. They have not been successful in censuring the government, calling for plebiscites or even having the normal order of business suspended so that a censure could be debated. NOT ONCE in 12 months.

    Instead they have tried to wreck the processes of parliament by endless, meaningless points of order in Question Time, and by junking any and all activities of the government as inept, debacles, catastrophes etc. They have run a scare campaign, claiming whole cities will be wiped off the map, whole industries destroyed, ordinary people sent to the poorhouse over crushing taxes and so on. No wonder the retailers have no-one in their shops! Many people are too scared to go out into the street, much less purchase anything.

    Look outside, open the window and take a deep breath. A few bad polls do not justify calling an election. Howard didn’t call an early election just because of polls, so why should Labor? Howard waited as long as he was able to, and so should Labor. They’re governing, not posturing like Abbott, who is all negative and no policies except daydream tax cuts, over-generous parental leave schemes, and Magic Pudding economics where everything is going to be paid off out of unspecified “savings”. Yet when challenged to find savings for the freezing of the Family Benefits freeze in the Budget, the coalition waved them through, without debate, claiming they could find no savings. All toughh talk and no action or backup to their threats.

    By all means have some fun protesting if you think you’re hard done by. It’s your democratic right, but don’t let simple anger override the facts.

    A final reminder: polls are not facts, and polls have a very bad habit of changing.

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    Cate S

    Paul Jarman @ 123
    Just answer the questions I put to you, Sir. You engaged – then you single out the word “protest” a-g-a-i-n….sweet lord man – you do realize that by your omission to to answer these questions in my post @120, that your motives for commenting in the manner you have on this thread, are becoming quite questionable…uh oh – didnt see that coming? Oops! ;)
    The question regarding “protest” words was..”Could you please point out the words “protest” in any of the releases put out about this Convoy?” The other questions, and the apology to participants, should be forthcoming from you shortly…i hope.
    Nigel @ 127 – you are spot on why there is so much enthusiasm with what you wrote, “This is not about being upset about loosing an election, as most here have already said, we dont support any party…” those words have been reiterated by so many Australians – and this is not in Australia’s best interest – the country is not stable – people are struggling financially – instability in a government – any government is not productive…people want this message to be heard.

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    smithe

    Ah, local Tea Party HQ. I was wondering where it was. Now don’t forget to tune into Alan Jones on 2GB as you pass through NSW fellas.

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    Damian Paul Lattimer

    [snip response to comment removed] Death threats instigated by Jones and Co are already the subject of investigation. You o0ldies should be bludy ashamed of yourselves, never had it so good under this Govt..do you actually know what the carbon pricing mean, does and how you will be compensated?
    Do you know what climate change is? Or do hyou believe Abbott, it is CRAP?

    [The death threats were a beat up of one old threat from 5 years ago, plus a swathe of rude ones recycled from 2010. Which real threat has been verified or is being investigated? Quote it. JN]

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    Bushfire Bill

    The country was held to ransome by a couple of individuals to decide who governs the country, no wonder people let fly [snip - edited] because they are at the end of their rope.

    Apart from being wrong – Abbott had exactly the opportunity as Gillard did to convince the Independents, and failed to do so – there is never any excuse for violence, or suggestions of it in our democracy.

    Australia has the best economy in the OECD, the lowest unemployment, the highest trade surplus, the lowest debt (by a country mile), a dollar that has become an international reference currency, pensions have been increased by over $1,000 per year, taxes are the seventh lowest (they are 5% lower than in 2007), low interest rates (the lowest since 2002) and government that saved an economy through economic stimulus packages. Sure there have been mistakes, but if you’d only read the reports you’s see that these programs, BER and yes, even Pink Batts, were hugely successful and delivered value for money as well as saving thousands from the dole (including hundreds and hundreds of truckies who worked on those programs, either directly or indirectly).

    If you want to keep on being angry, I can’t stop you, but I think you should take a long hard look at the facts before you … [Snip. No one is talking about doing that. You are the one reading it that way. That discussion stops now. --JN] That’s no way to talk and definitely no way to act, not in this country.

    If you want to blow people up, or shoot them, try Afghanistan, or Iraq (ironically you’d probably say they’re all terrorists who shott people and bomb them!), but leave Australia out of your violent fantasies. Please.

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    david

    There is a constitutional process that determines the circumstances and timing of elections. Like all citizens, I have my own complaints about the Government, but this does not mean that I or any-one else can try to undermine the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law.

    The Governor-General is bound by the law, and may take no notice of this or any other mob. The day any Governor-General becomes susceptible to protests in or on the streets is the day you can kiss goodbye to representative democracy and the rule of law.

    You may protest by all means. But you go too far when you try to impose yourself on the Governor-General and, implicitly, the Parliament itself.

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    Alan Jones

    [Snip... this appears to be someone trying to impersonate Alan Jones from 2GB]

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    steve

    Mmmmm…so now some don’t support election results?
    The people have already spoken.
    They wanted neither party to rule in the majority.
    So, your party of choice did not win the election? So what!
    You’ll have your chance to effect change with your vote at the next election if the majority of voters feel the same way.
    If you don’t respect our democratic system then pack your bags & move to the middle east.

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    Ben

    So Nigel @ 127 doesn’t support any political party, he just spouts the lies and talking points of the opposition. Cute.

    [snip response to snipped comment]

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    P. Dragone

    Let me remind everyone of the beautiful set of numbers:
    Australia:

    1. Unemployment 4.9%
    2. Inflation 3.6%
    3. Public Net Debts 7% GDP
    4. RBA Interest rate 4.75%
    5. Growth rate 3.3%
    6. AUD Vs USD 1.0703
    7. Trade Surplus – $2.23B May 2011
    8. “ALP best manager of money, history shows” – Mega
    9. Australian families depending on one breadwinner pay among the lowest amounts of tax in the world and have become better off under the Gillard Government – Natsem
    10. Investment in the next year in mining and related infra-structure projects $140B
    11. Labor’s Tax take 21.75% of GDP Vs 25% under Liberals
    12. No interest rise for the 8th consecutive month Vs 10 consecutive rises under Howard/Costello. It is now expected no rises in the future with a prospect of interest rate cuts.
    13. The number of people filling for bankruptcy in Australia has fallen by 16%.
    14. Australia safe from debt crisis: OECD – http://afr.com/p/national/economy/australia_safe_from_debt_crisis_rgznLP6HTyYo7nGragUwyI #auspol

    Print it if you dare!

    [Yes, it took a century to get to this position, but could be ruined in a few short years. Billions wasted trying to change the weather, pink batt programs that killed people, government offices paying $800k for dozens of covered tin sheds without walls... and the list goes on. JN]

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    Why did 2GB run, away was it the talk about lynching , chaff bags at sea and all that violence that they bidn’t want to be associated with?

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    imacca

    “He hopes to generate enough support and media attention via the “vote of no confidence” convoy to convince the Governor General to dissolve the parliament or to convince Julia Gillard to go back to the polls. “

    Well, if that’s the objective of these convoys i think its a load of crap. Australia voted. We got a hung parliament. Negotiations followed and Julia Gillard managed to form a government.

    Unless the Greens or Indies renege on their agreements with the Government then the Govt has the votes in parliament to survive a no-confidence motion.

    Simple. The only thing that could change that is a by election in a marginal ALP seat caused by the sitting member dying, or getting caught out in some kind of goat/mango butter incident and retiring.

    The GG cant simply dissolve parliament. She acts on the advice of the PM and there are conventions that determine if the PM goes to the GG to ask for parliament to be dissolved.

    Next election in the latter part of 2013. Burn all the fuel you want in expressing your opinion but i think the best you can hope for is an “opinion noted” kind of response, and then the Govt will keep getting on with the job. They haven’t been perfect, but they have certainly been a hell of a lot better Govt than has been portrayed in the mainstream press by lazy journo’s. The absolute crap that has been written about the HIP and BER programs being a case in piont.

    And really, do you seriously want the man of the shuddering brain-lock and his bunch of no-hoper clowns running the country?? If they had been in power during 08/09 we would have suffered a LOT higher unemployment during round 1 of the GFC. During the last election their level of displayed economic illiteracy was simply stunning, and their weakness on policy development is still apparent.

    All they are running on at the moment is FUD and a sympathetic media. They are not an alternative Govt.

    [Oh "obviously" this convoy can't achieve anything, and you are not afraid of it in the slightest, either, right? Ha ha. The ALP can't survive dismal opinion polls and stay in the same form. Half of the sitting ALP members would lose their seats at the moment. The convoy must look terrifying to fans of the Say Yes campaign. --JN]

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    macca

    I hope the whole twenty five of you have a pleasant drive.

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    Steve Schapel

    Nigel (#127)…

    I realise it was a typo when you said “loosing” an election. But I couldn’t help smiling at the irony there. It couldn’t be much more loose than what you’ve got there in Australia now. I hope you can get it tightened, and at the same time un-screwed.

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    Matt and I have put our hands up to coordinate the Perth leg of the CONVOY. 0417 815 595 is my mobile, if you want to help, join, donate… please give me a ring. We’re working on a Perth send-off event, and envisioning a “relay” convoy of sorts. Some of us will go all the way (we and our four kiddos are), but if you cannot do so, please join us, for example, from Perth to Northam, Northam to Kal, Kalgoorlie to Norseman, etc.

    What you can do:

    1. Join the full convoy (we’re gonna have fun!) and rally in Canberra on the 22nd;
    2. Provide a welcome rally in your town along the route;
    3. Join the convoy for a “welcome into town” or a “sendoff to Canberra” with your own banner and flags waving;
    4. Donate a tank of diesel or petrol;
    5. Whether you are participating or not, ring talkback radio and support the ELECTION NOW concept.

    More details to come. Any input greatly appreciated!

    Cheers,
    Janet

    (P.S. Some will criticise us for taking this on. But we’ve read the “Clean Energy Bill 2011″ enough to know that if we sit back and idly let this atrocity move forward, all of our heartache to date will have been for nought. I hope you understand. We are compelled to do this.)

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    Cate S

    Oh dear – looks like Jo’s site is under attack by trolls who like the red button – woot wooh! Well, thats fine by me – democracy at work! Thanks for the laugh! Maybe I too should email all the participants and supporters of the “Convoy of No Confidence in the Federal Government- Coalition of Industries” and ask them to hit the green buttons! lol :) Bring it on – because the people will decide for them selves – your credibility is now buggered…:(

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    Ian Hill

    Nigel, yes, I’m in Adelaide. I’ve just sent you an email.

    Boy those red thumbs-down are starting to get a real workout. Panic stations I’d say – a good sign indeed!

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    Steve Schapel

    Paul (#117): “I clean up the mess at my place so why not as a nation clean up the mess our country and industries make?”

    This is indeed a very noble sentiment. I’m sure most people would agree. I certainly do. Only problem is, in the context of the current discussion, it’s not relevant. You see, there is the question of this carbon dioxide tax. This tax will not contribute in any way to the cleaning up of any mess. For a start, it is focussed on carbon dioxide, which is in no sense a mess. As the bumper sticker on my car says, “CO2 is good for you”. We need more CO2. This tax won’t, can’t reduce global CO2 – but even if it did, that is a) nothing to do with cleaning up any mess, and b) a bad idea.

    I realise that there has been a malicious double-speak campaign to associate carbon dioxide with the term “carbon pollution” in people’s minds in Australia. For anybody who has been victim to this indoctrination, I can only conclude they have not been careful enough about where they get their information. But, you know what Mate, the most incredible thing is happening – there are more people than you care to imagine who have twigged to the truth. These Australians have figured out that there is something very rotten in the state of Greenmark, and they aren’t going to put up with it any longer. As I understand it, this is part of what’s driving this convoy.

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    Janet: #140
    July 30th, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    Good on you and Matt Janet.
    As if you didn’t have enough worries without taking this on.

    YOU’RE A BLOODY INSPIRATION. I LUV YA BOTH

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    steve

    Not political ay!
    Mick Pattel ‘is’ the Southern Cross Party.
    Strange that with the ensuing protest he has requested the web page be removed.
    Perhaps a reality check is needed.
    http://forums.altnews.com.au/content/aldoda-transport-shutdown-sick-bullshit

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    Steve Schapel

    Janet (#131)…

    I’ve been sitting here for about 20 minutes trying to find the words to express my response to your post. You and Matt are heroes, but I suspect you don’t care much about recognition or admiration. So I guess all I will say is:
    Thanks for what you are doing. And I hope you have a great trip.

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    Ian Hill

    What a great adventure and education for your kids Janet. I hope you get all the support you need.

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    Goanna

    That Paul Jarman cant be serious!!! He must be a damn steering wheel attendant for Fox or a member of petty coat junction. Where the hell is your head man? Buried in the sand so deep you can only see the sea worms. How many truck drivers do you know who have been forced to ‘hit the wall’ because of all these taxes? Which taxes that have imposed against the truck drivers are illegal – forcibly imposed by criminals – breaching our consitutional laws. How many marriages have been destroyed because drivers have lost everything – kids loose their dads homes even their animals…. As for fuel – you ignorant git – you surely peddle a bloody push bike hence the reason it is not costing you as much as it the rest of us. I forgot – you are playing the role of one of the ‘fat cats’ rr – next you will telling us is you own a bloody chain of service stations …go back to knitting honey

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    steve

    Pattel endorsed as LNP Mt Isa candidate
    POPULAR Richmond transport operator Mick Pattel has been endorsed by the LNP as its candidate to contest the state seat of Mount Isa at the next election..
    Sun Mar 2011 04:03 (4 months, 2 weeks ago)

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    Goanna

    Hey Mike and Cate – You don’t suppose Aussie could tip do you?!!!! lol I mean so many people all in the ACT at one given time. Ha There will not be enough gov gooks to keep it balanced. lololol… Go you good things….

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    David

    Good on yer – viewed with envy from the UK – where we continue to just allow the pollies to tax us to a standstill based on the most flawed science in the history of the universe..
    Well done Baa Humbug for not only reminding everyone about my favourite ‘music’ track of all time (‘Convoy’ by C W McCall) but also posting the link to that hilarious video.. In your case, mates, the enemy isn’t the ‘bears’, its your government, but the same spirit applies – so ‘let them truckers roll, ten four…’
    Just a point worth reminding your bunch of incompetents about – same planet; different country. Gasoline in Venezuela is – wait for it – 1.4 British pence per litre….

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    Matilda

    I remember the great impact back in the 1970′s when we had a truckies blockade – called the Razorback Blockade – the name of Ted ”Greendog” Stevens goes down in history as the government of the day finally implemented the truckies demands for safer roads etc. I shall be attending the Election Now rally in Canberra on 16/8/2011 and I shall travel from the coast (Narooma) to cheer the truckies on and hand out ANZAC biscuits a week later !!! In 3 short years this country has been trashed. Our forefathers travelled to Gallipoli, the Western Front etc. to fight the same enemy we have SITTING IN OUR PARLIAMENT TODAY!! They must not get away with this! A SUGGESTION! We are about to be bombarded with propaganda pamphlets in the mail. This SELECTED government has wasted another $5,000,000.00 on printing this propaganda about climate change – and no election in sight!! Maybe as the trucks roll through the towns, people can pass these propaganda pamphlets to the truckies to be delivered back to the PM. She needs to listen to the people of Australia. WE DEMAND AN ELECTION NOW!!!

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    Barry

    Paul Jarman….. from Get-Up????????

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    gusface

    [snip mindless insult ]

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    Rob Moore

    David @138,
    You have got to get Nigel Farage and the good Lord Monckton of the UKIP in power over there and you will hav new hope!

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    gusface

    [snip more...]

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    Adam Smith

    What we need to do is write letters to the Governor General asking her to sack the Prime Minister, and call a double dissolution election.

    If we write enough letters she could also introduce Citizen’s Initiated Referenda so we can get things back like the death penalty and a flat income tax.

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    imacca

    Anyhow people, here’s hoping that you manage to get more people at your rally that the last ones they had re anti-carbon price (and seemingly anti just about everything else??) in Canberra. Was a bit embarrassing for the likes of 2GB and the Coalition that the pro carbon price rallies were substantially better attended though. Good thing is that most of the Green-Left rent a crowd types would not really get into a long, massively fuel intensive, series of road trips like you guys are doing so no probs with them making a bigger showing in this context. Ha! what would they do, a Convoy of Prius Hybrids or Mountain Bikes i’d bet!! Nothing like the impact (on many levels) of big noisy freaking trucks with air horns!! Well done!

    [REPLY: Ahh yes, the people who think the world is about "perceptions" and not reality, have turned up to pretend that their plan is more popular (which party is ahead in the polls eh?) and to make some big unsubstantiated claims about figures at rallies. It's all too easy when you don't have any data. "My rally is bigger than yours." Mate, there were no sweeping photos of the supposedly 5000 person pro-carbon rallys, and there was a good reason for that. --JN]

    To Rob @ 140:

    “You have got to get Nigel Farage and the good Lord Monckton of the UKIP in power over there and you will hav new hope!”

    Have been following some of Monktons stuff. Colorful chap isn’t he?? Some good references on the net that are worth a read.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/Monckton_Myths.htm

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    MaryFJohnston

    Pardon my Naivete but what does the pink back-grounding mean.

    Is that a post that has gotten a rise out of the warmers?

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    Jo, you must love it when the reality deniers go viral and start commenting on your site!

    “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.” (Julia Gillard, 2010 election campaign)

    Deputy PM Wayne Swan exclaimed during the campaign “It’s not possible that we’re bringing in a carbon tax. That is an hysterically inaccurate claim being made by the Coalition.”

    It’s Time for the
    2011 Rejection
    of the 2010 Election
    Based on a Lie

    Election Now!

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    I just dug this up from my talk at the No Carbon Tax event we held on 23 March, soon after this Government said they were going to do something they had promised not to. I think the ideas here are apropo for the general tone of the CONVOY:

    WHY ARE WE HERE?

    1. Some of us are truly surprised and/or offended that Gillard and Swan lied.

    2. Some of us know that the tax will increase our cost of living and effectively decrease our net incomes.

    3. Some of us are concerned that care for our environment under a Carbon (Dioxide) tax will suffer. Funds will be diverted from solving real problems into more Government largesse, more wasteful spending and more political vote-buying.

    4. Some of us are sceptical of the fundamental so-called climate science that has been used as a political excuse for this devastating tax.

    5. Some of us are concerned that our jobs will go overseas, particularly to China and India.

    6. Some of us simply do not want the Government to get bigger. We think it’s big enough, thank you.

    We’re here to send a message: 1. We’re taxed enough already. 2. This “carbon” tax will do nothing to help our environment. And 3. We don’t appreciate our leaders saying one thing in an election campaign, and then blatantly DOING something else in order to maintain an illicit relationship with a minor third party who hates those of us that pay the bills.

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    So, Jo, you are from the IPA. [Snip -- No. I'm not. Not that it would matter if I was.]

    [Jovial, you can reveal your real name or apologize for your pathetic attempt to do an ad hom, and your transparent attempt to pretend this is not true grassroots action. Did GetUp send you? -- JN]

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    Tsk tsk, Hearland Institute Jo? [SNIP. Wrong again. Crawl back into your hole. ]

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    Ladies and Gentlemen, I think people are very afraid this Convoy might take off in a big way. They very much want to dent enthusiasm. Suddenly a swarm of commenters turn up to make unsubstantiated, or drive-by scornful comments to slow down an event that’s gathering steam that would be very hard for the government and media to ignore.

    Look at how weak their reasoning is.

    1. Who says we have to accept the government until the next election? Australians are free to gather and protest – they can ask for an election anytime. And who would bother if the government was only the usual “bad” and not truly awful type? We have to be seriously dismayed in order to rise up and spend thousands of dollars and weeks of our time in order to try to make that happen. It takes spectacular mismanagement to give people a reason to protest like this, but the ALP (sadly) have got there.

    2. “The ALP won legitimately”. No, the ALP won legally. If Windsor and Oakshott had told their electorates they’d seriously consider voting Labor in a hung parliament, would they have won? If Gillard had said, “we will price carbon”, would she have won? It took several lies to get there. No wonder people are angry, but they would not be protesting if the Gillard government weren’t abusing their position by making so many inept mistakes.

    3. “Trucks are not IN the tax package”. And does the fine print (if its true) make any difference anyway when the country is going down the tubes? When you don’t trust the government, anything could be different tomorrow. That’s why “trust” is so important. When it’s gone, there is nothing left.

    4. “Our rally was bigger than your rally”. Sure… got any photos to prove it?

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    Ladies and Gentlemen — please keep comments polite and not let colourful expressions get too carried away.

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    Jovial, all your comments are held until you apologize for your baseless slurs, give us your real name and promise to lift standards of reasoning. Ad homs are the mark of a stoneage brain.

    Jo

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    imacca

    “Who says we have to accept the government until the next election? ”

    I suspect there is something in the constitution about terms, elected governments and all that.

    “1. Some of us are truly surprised and/or offended that Gillard and Swan lied.”

    You should consider retracting that if you wish to be seen as credible. Someone lies when they say something that they know at the time is untrue. At the time the PM asserted that there would not be a carbon tax under a government she led, she had every right to assume that she would either be PM (and able to follow through on that) or LOTO and so the statement would be irrelevant. Then the Australian people voted for a hung parliament. Circumstances changed such that she could not lead action on carbon and keep that promise.

    She did not keep the promise, but clearly she did not lie. That is a fallacy, and promoting that fallacy as truth is not an intellectually sustainable position. Obviosly good for stirring people up though!! :)

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    Roy Hogue

    Joanne Nova lays down the bottom line argument.

    That’s why “trust” is so important. When it’s gone, there is nothing left.

    Trust, that confidence in the people and institutions around you, is broken. The wheels of civilization are powered and greased by confidence that the other guy will do as he says he will if I do as I say I will. The grease is gone and the bearings are overheated. The power is slowly being bled away.

    I know this site is dedicated to a one problem and I know it’s going to spend time on Australia’s problems. And that’s right! But the problems you have in Australia are worldwide. Worse, they are human problems and they live right squarely in the heart of every one of us.

    I fear that far from being more or less a joke as Dr. Laurence Peter suggested, the Peter Principle is frighteningly real and the human race has promoted itself to its level of incompetence. So we’re stuck as high as we can go because there is no one higher up the ladder to discipline or instruct us and we can’t promote ourselves up the ladder and out of trouble either.

    The problem is bigger than Australia, the United States, the European Union or any other nation. It lies within. It subverts the heart and the soul. I have just watched my own government descend into a playground brawl — let’s face it; polite language doesn’t change what’s happening — where egos personal power and the party line count more than managing the country through a monumental crisis. Each side is maneuvering for advantage in the 2012 election. My curse to them!

    My whole outlook is very much changed over these last weeks. I can’t count on even those I helped elect.

    I wish you all the best in your quest for better government. But please be very careful about what you put in to replace what you throw out.

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    Gazza

    Never enter into debate with an idiot, the’ll only drag you down to their level – Samuel Clements

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    Matilda

    Just another thought on the Convoy. Would it be possible to organise hundreds of petitions on ONE TOPIC – namely WE THE PEOPLE OF AUSTRALIA DEMAND A FEDERAL ELECTION NOW (Double Dissolution would be much better, but heck, I’m prepared to go back to a 2nd election almost immediately to wipe out the green controlling senate)with say each truck/vehicle carrying the same petition. When there is a nightly stopover etc, the people in each town could sign the petiton and at the end of the Convoy combine all the petitions into ONE and present it to the Prime Minister.

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    BobC

    Joanne Nova:
    July 31st, 2011 at 1:59 am
    Ladies and Gentlemen, I think people are very afraid this Convoy might take off in a big way. They very much want to dent enthusiasm.

    Same thing with the USA Tea Party movement last summer — in fact the slurs and villification is still going strong.

    Let’s hope the Aussie Convoy gives the Progs just as much reason to be afraid as the Tea Party has.

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    Ian Hill

    MaryFJohnston, my observations tell me it goes pink when the total of the buttons pushed reaches 10.

    imacca, the applause from the crowd at the Getup Yes rally in Adelaide did not match the size of it and the crowd was only half the size stated in the press.

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    Steve Schapel

    Roy (#175)…

    It is certainly sad that the idea of a new election has the flavour of “lesser of two evils”, and that the current energy in Australia is rejection of the bad apple, rather than the affirmation of something healthy.

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    BobC

    @92:
    Mercy sakes alive looks like we got us a… CONVOY! | Australian TEA Party:

    CONVOY

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    MaryFJohnston

    imacca re your 164. Perhaps all the anti carbon people have to work.

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    Nigel

    To the 3 & 4am posters that told ME to stay home with my bombs and guns, please read my post again you short sighted tools, my quote was ” no wonder use bombs and guns when they get to the end of their rope”, i did not once say I was using these methods, i was in fact talking about the violence thet Norway saw, and Iraq, & Afganistan, hence why we are using peacfull methods such as the Convoy, [snip]……….If you think this bloody Govt is so good why have hundreds of Facebook pages and pages like this started to oust them, go back to your latte’s and iced tea……..”There will be NO carbon tax under any Govt i lead, lying rat…

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    [Snip. It's all an ad hom. -- Wiki is inaccurate, and it makes no difference if I was paid by an Arabian Oil Shiek in any case. The graphs of hadley radiosondes are what they are. I can't change them. Argue the science or discuss the policy or be gone back to your nest of attack-dog-training-centres. Most of what I do is unpaid. You fail the logic and reason test. That's not an apology for ad homs. JN]

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    Paul Jarman

    [snip]

    [Jarman, you are now indefinitely in moderation. "Denialist". Either provide peer reviewed empirical evidence that we "deny" -- that shows catastrophic warming due to a doubling of CO2 of anything greater than 1.2 degrees. Otherwise you need to apologize for stooping to childish namecalling, and promise not to resort to ad homs, or namecalling. --JN]

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    [snip, You are still moderated for baseless namecalling, and now so is Jarman. JN]

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    somona in Tas

    Please let us be consistent on one aim -
    are we pushing for an election/no carbontax/double dissolution.
    It is truly a case of united we win or divided we fail.
    and Julia and co will attempt to divide – don’t let them

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    Cate S

    Geeze Jo..I reckon this convoy is just what is needed – i have been recommending this link to all – many just forwarding it on. Most feedback is we NEED to have a peoples convoys like this after reading the comments here! Well done for publicising it.
    Now, for the record …are you sure Paul Jarman# 187 that Mick is a current candidate? WRONG! Baaaahaaa! Nice try, but no cigar ;)
    Other references to be addressed from other posts;
    Tea Party having anything to do with this convoy organizing …WRONG! Baaaahhhaaaa – man o man some misinformation (deliberately so on here – laughable!)
    Right – wingers…baaaahhhhaaa – heck no! All political persuasions have joined the convoy, and helping to organize it – so WRONG!
    Clarification for derogatory and slanderous statements – there will be ZERO tolerance of any implied or perceived to be implied threats to any persons who choose to participate in the convoy.
    There will be ZERO tolerance of bad behaviour – and ZERO tolerance by those who try to sabotage a peaceful, convoy of Australian Citizens voicing MANY and VARIED concerns that they have with ALL Federal Politicians…oh, and the Federal Police ARE working with the organizers – bugger hey?!
    Aussies doing the right thing – and not being bullied, intimidated or slandered – everyday working people taking part to be heard and voice their concerns.
    Play the ball people – and that goes all the way to the top of Government!

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    memoryvault

    Wow, looks like the thread was dive-bombed by a couple of squadrons of trolls last night. Amazing how so many people, completely disconnected from each other, can all show up in the same place at the same time making the same claims and misquoting the same “facts” and “figures”. Almost like it was organised or something . . . . .

    I’ve posted before on how Australia is governed, but in the interests of mopping up some of the bovine excrement slopped all over the place by these trolls, I hope I will be forgiven for doing so again.

    .

    Australia is governed by “Queen Victoria, her heirs and successors” (the reigning monarch). The monarch in turn agrees to govern us according to our will, “in accordance with our laws and customs”, as expressed in the Bill of Rights Act 1688, our constitution, and certain other documents.

    The monarch swears to govern in this manner when they are crowned and take the Coronation Oath, as laid out in the Coronation Oath Act, 1688. This is the same Coronation Oath as sworn by William and Mary of Orange, and is based on the demands made of them in the Bill of Rights presented to them in 1687.

    The Federal House of Representatives only exists to advise the monarch of “the will of the people”, and the Federal Senate only exists to advise the monarch of “the will of the states”. Together the two Houses constitute the Parliament.

    The Parliament has no power of itself to make laws. Proposed legislation (a bill) can only become law once it is given Royal Assent by the monarch. In Australia the monarch has an appointed representative – the Governor General.

    The GG is appointed by the monarch – NOT by the Parliament. Yes, it is a “convention” that the Prime Minister advises the monarch of their nomination for the position, and yes it is a “convention” that the monarch appoints the Prime Minister’s nominee. However it is by no means a requirement or a foregone conclusion that this will be the case – there have been times in Australian political history when the monarch has rejected the PM’s nominee.

    Similarly, the PM cannot “sack” the GG. Again, it is a “convention” that if the PM requests that the GG be replaced, the monarch will oblige, but it is by no means a necessity – the monarch is perfectly entitled to tell the PM to go take a flying jump.

    Proposed legislation that is passed by both Houses of Parliament is assumed to represent the “will of the people”, but is NOT a law. It only becomes law when the GG grants it Royal Assent, and it is subsequently “proclaimed” (published) as law.

    The GG does NOT have to grant Royal Assent to a bill. The GG can either:

    1) – grant Royal Assent, or

    2) – reserve the bill for the monarch’s consideration, or

    3) – return the bill to the Parliament for further consideration.

    In the situation we find ourselves in today the only effective means of protest is to push for (3) above.

    The GG cannot “sack” the government. The GG can, however, dismiss the entire Parliament (a double dissolution) and call a fresh election. However the GG can realistically only do this under the following circumstances:

    A) – Where the Parliament has carried a vote of no confidence – effectively a vote of no confidence in itself – expressed as a vote of no confidence in the PM.

    B) – Where supply bills have failed to pass Parliament, effectively making “government” impossible.

    C) – Where a bill has been returned to Parliament for consideration, and the Parliament refuses to amend it.

    The people organising this convoy need to understand and accept that they CANNOT effectively:
    “demand” the carbon legislation not be passed,
    “demand” the government be sacked,
    “demand” a new election.

    What they can do, should do, MUST do, is turn this convoy into an effective petition to the GG, expressing that this carbon legislation (the various bills) do NOT represent the Will of the People, and humbly requesting that they be returned to the Parliament for reconsideration.

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    memoryvault

    TURNING THE CONVOY INTO AN EFFECTIVE PROTEST TO THE GG

    1) – Get a properly-worded petition drawn up expressing the grievance as outlined in the post above – LCM should be able to help with the official wording of a petition to the GG. The petition should give sufficient detail of the proposed bills in question.

    2) – Get several copies printed (with spares) for each of the convoys.

    3) – Get posters made up detailing what is about to happen and why – explaining that the Convoy will be passing through their towns and asking that they sign the petition asking the GG to return the legislation to the parliament.

    4) – Include on the posters the suggestion that people hang colour-co-ordinated balloons and streamers up in their town to show support for the convoy and petition.

    4) – Get as many volunteers in as many towns as possible to put the posters up all over the place so people know that the convoy is coming, and where and when they can sign the petition.

    5) – Nominate a car to stop at the first town and collect signatures on the petition. Nominate a car to stop at the second town and so forth. Once the first car is finished in the first town it catches up with the convoy and becomes the first car again. It may be necessary to nominate four or five ‘”collection cars” to ensure nobody gets left too far behind.

    6) – Advise Tony Abbott NOW that you will require a meeting to present him with a petition from concerned citizens all over Australia, and to request he present the petition to the GG. If Abott will not be in it (and I would not be surprised), then see if Barnaby Joyce will.

    7) – When you get to Canberra, forget about hassling Labor or Greens politicians. Concentrate on the Coalition members. Make sure they understand that their sitting on the fence in this matter will no longer be tolerated, and if they will not stand up for conservative Australians you will return to your homes and start preparing to run independents who will.

    Above all, make sure everybody in this convoy understands the need to be self-sufficient and be able to look after themselves when they get to Canberra. It will only take one car-load of well-meaning but foolish supporters fronting up to the Salvo’s or St Vinnies chasing blankets for their kids because they didn’t realise how cold it got in Canberra, for the local presstitutes to have a field day.

    This convoy represents possibly the best opportunity in my lifetime to demonstrate the Australian system of government working the way it was always MEANT to work – IE the Parliament exists to represent the WILL of the PEOPLE.

    If the convoy can arrive in Canberra with a million plus signatures it will change politics in this country for a generation to come.

    Or it can just be another protest. The choice is yours.

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    david

    The data on global warming is pervasive, prolonged and pronounced. Global mean surface temperatures have been going up for for at least 130 years. Since the 1930′s, every decade has been warmer than the preceding decade and the rate of increase is now also increasing.

    These are observable facts. They are not expressions of belief or opinion. The consequences of this rise in temperatures are also observable and are really not contestable. The climate is changing very quickly and it is very easy to see this will have dramatic consequences for the human population, which is highly vulnerable to disruptions to agriculture and rainfall patterns the among other consequences of rapid environmental change.

    Physics offers a very straight-forward explanation for this. The molecular structure of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses makes then very efficient collectors of infra-red light that is present in sunlight. These gases also absorb infra-red light that has been reflected by the surface of the earth. This infra-red energy is absorbed and then released by greenhouse gases as heat. So as the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere increases, more heat is released into the atmosphere. If the concentration of these gases were reduced, less infra-red light would be absorbed, more heat would radiate back into space and the atmosphere would cool.

    This effect has been well-demonstrated and is a convincing explanation for the atmospheric warming that has been observed.

    In the pre-scientific age, you could posit competing explanations for physical phenomena and exchange ideas on the basis that they could all have equal validity. But we do not live in that era. Luckily, we have science at our disposal to help us understand and explain natural phenomena, such as changes in the earth’s atmosphere. If you have the view that the science of atmospheric warming could be wrong, then you need to posit an alternative explanation, develop a testable hypothesis, test the theory and publish the results. So far, none of this has been done.

    It really would be so much more constructive to focus on facts and on gaining a deeper understanding what is happening to the climate than on a protest. I can understand why people are upset – how easily they can be provoked and aroused. But at the end of the day, this protest is really just like tilting at windmills.

    One thing is absolutely certain about climate change. We are all in this together. Unless we use our capacity for inquiry and reason, and find ways to cooperate – instead of ways to fight each other – we will probably fail to deal with the greatest challenge our species has yet had to face.

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    Good, down-to-earth people like Cate and Mick produce and add value. They work with real people of all political persuasions. They pay tax and contribute to society.

    For years and years hard-working, productive people have thrived in Australia, but now see that some bureaucrats and politicians have the power to stop their businesses, destroy their families, decimate their communities — overnight.

    We want to reclaim our democracy. We want a government of, by and for the people. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Right can and will triumph over might.

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    imacca

    “Something beautiful is unfolding. From all over Australia, people whose businesses and jobs are being driven into the ground by spectacular government mismanagement are gathering to drive from the corners of the continent to converge on Canberra to demand an election.”

    From the OP. So really this Convoy of (insert whatever appropos descriptor here), is a generic protest about everything to do with the Govt. I can sympathize with the transport drivers who have done it tough as far as conditions and cost cutting for years, but it really sounds like these peoples presence in Canberra is going to be high-jacked by whatever loud right wing political agitator manages to get the most airplay on the day. Its a protest about everything and so is more likely to come across as a general whinge than anything else.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if some of the rabid climate denialist’s who turn up on the day start getting annoyed with Abbott since he’s on record as supporting 5% cuts and accepting the science of AGW. That would be a laugh!! Maybe we’d be treated to another shuddering brain-lock session??

    And as far as “being afraid” of this convoy event? Nope. The govt has the numbers in the HoR and Senate at the moment to get on with what strikes me as am agenda that actually goes to the public interest rather than a political one. They have gotten NBN up, Carbon Price is on the way, MRRT to come next. Those 3 are as far as i can see the really big reforms of this term, and guess what, they are going through regardless of how many trucks turn up and beep their little horns, or how many frustrated Libs/ Nats / Teabaggers make frustrated moans and screams about the “legitimacy” of the PROPERLY elected govt that the Australian people chose in 2010. :)

    (Please do not call us rabid climate denialist’s here again) CTS

    [Imacca is in moderation now too... some people just can't hold a polite conversation eh? JN]

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    From what I understand the convoys are not about a single issue (CO2 tax) but a raft of issues that have led to no confidence in government.

    Judging by the maturity or lack of to be more accurate, I smell Getup! Funny that…a couple of years ago I signed a Getup petition against Internet censorship and apparently now I’m a member.

    At the top of my wish hit list to Uncle Tony when he becomes PM is Getup with ABC coming a close second. It is time that this organisation was investigated on several fronts, especially using names that have not joined to bolster the membership.

    If my name is on the list then I will commence actions against the organisation. No use in shredding or deleting at the next election either. A hint…they could have used better passwords on their system, lol!

    Here’s the kicker…I’m a member of the IPA and proud of the fact. Attending the Vaclav Klaus address tomorrow in Brisbane and I will be circulating flyers promoting the convoy.

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    Steve Schapel

    David (#193)…

    Your comments are interesting. No offence intended, but they seem to indicate that you haven’t really been paying attention. But I am happy to inform you that “the greatest challenge our species has yet had to face”, as you describe it, is nothing to worry about. Just relax about global warming, you’ll be ok. On the other hand, we are faced with many serious and important challenges, one of which at the moment being the threat of insidious totalitarianism. Many people are starting to see the need to cooperate in fighting this.

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    memoryvault

    David @ 193

    The “observable facts” are that climate goes in 20 – 30 year cycles, and these cycles fit into aprox 300 year cycles of warming and cooling, as evidenced by the MWP and LIA. The mid 1940′s to mid 1970′s were a cooling cycle, the mid 1970′s to about 2000 were a warming cycle, and now all observable evidence suggests we are entering another cooling cycle.

    Each of the proceeding warming cycles since 1850 have been progressively warmer than the one before since we are currently in a “warming” period of the longer cycle, coming out of the LIA.

    Since there is absolutely nothing happening that has not been recorded as happening before in accordance with the above cycles, for the last several thousand years, it is pretty easy to conclude that your CO2, regardless of what magical properties your religion bestows upon it, has SFA to do with what is happening now.

    Far from being “the greatest challenge our species has yet had to face”, there’s pretty much nothing happening for anybody to get their knickers in a twist over.

    Certainly there is nothing happening to justify the hysteria of your cult, or the proposition that we tax ourselves back to the stone age in some naive belief that we can control the weather.

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    imacca

    “If my name is on the list then I will commence actions against the organisation. No use in shredding or deleting at the next election either. A hint…they could have used better passwords on their system, lol!
    Here’s the kicker…I’m a member of the IPA and proud of the fact. Attending the Vaclav Klaus address tomorrow in Brisbane and I will be circulating flyers promoting the convoy.”

    Coooool! So now we have the IPA hacking Getup?? How topical, and look how well that worked out for Rupe! :)

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    memoryvault

    imacca

    You wouldn’t be the “imacca” of RMM (www.rmmlondon.com) who run the WWF online media campaign would you?

    To quote from your website:

    Enviroment charity and campaigner WWF has appointed digital consultant RMM to handle its online marketing strategy as it promotes its ecological footprint calculator.

    RMM will review and develop the strategy to help the WWF reach out to online communities and promote the calculator and the organisation through new online channels, such as social networks, blogs and search.

    Isn’t WWF one of the organisations behind Getup?

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    MaryFJohnston

    David @193.

    So you’ve read a little bit of science on the warmer primer university sites.

    If you had gone to a real University to study science you would, like us here, understand why you are talking non science.

    Use of words like ” posit” sound very authoritative but in the end can’t hide you lack of real expertise and sense of proportion.

    However, please feel free to carry on and really show us how little you know of the science.

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    memoryvault

    imacca

    Not to mention working for the BBC.

    Can anyone say “vested interest” children?

    Can you spell “paid troll”?

    .

    I knew you could.

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    Kerry

    [The death threats were a beat up of one old threat from 5 years ago, plus a swathe of rude ones recycled from 2010. Which real threat has been verified or is being investigated? Quote it. JN]

    Here’s a link for you, from June 2011, re a very recent death threat:
    http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/06/10/238375_news.html

    A TOWNSVILLE man is behind bars after being arrested for threatening to kill Prime Minister Julia Gillard.

    Jeffrey Charles Geaney, 38, appeared briefly at Townsville Magistrates Court yesterday on three charges of using a carriage service to threaten to kill, which each carry a maximum penalty of 10 years’ jail.

    Read more at the above link.

    And it’s not just Labor pollies – it’s all shades of the political spectrum and those not of any political persuasion (eg scientists)who are receiving death threats.
    http://www.news.com.au/national/federal-police-investigate-156-security-incidents-involving-julia-gillard-tony-abbot-and-more/story-e6frfkw9-1226074026998

    It would be really great if the level of debate remained civil
    That facts are presented, evidenced and accepted.
    It’s very telling that rhetoric is presented as fact, that opinion is accepted as fact – and the debate degenerates to he said, she said.

    I find it extremely offensive listening to pathetic name-calling (from all sides) of our political leaders.
    And I find it even more offensive when those who wield power (the media) constantly up the aggro in our community.

    Hope your rally is successful and peaceful
    That’s what democracy is all about.

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    MaryFJohnston

    Re 192 again. “I can understand why people are upset”

    Actually I don’t think you even make the attempt.

    Just the Ocean level lunacy on its own has caused a lock up of mobility for people who live in the Central Coast area supposedly to be inundated soon. This is real “life damage” which people who have worked hard all their lives are now suffering because Politicians see value in jumping at Phantoms.

    Greenies are not nice people; they hate humans.

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    P. Dragone

    Re my comment 141, I see you did not dare print the ALP governments Beautiful Set of Numbers without your completely spurious assertions tacked on the end. LOL Hit a reactionary with a few facts and the squealing starts.

    It did not take 100 years, just since 2007. LOL

    My advice is, stop whinging, be thankful you live in a country that is doing so well when others are not, and that you have God’s fortune to be living under a Prime Minister Julia Gillard’s ALP government.

    While you are at it, why don’t you stop using these people, causing them to burn their hard-earned money and their passion jumping at shadows?

    I see from some of these comments, you have even scared poor people into offering money for this folly. I particularly think that if anyone here takes a pension payment off a pensioner as a ‘donation’ as a result of this fear-mongering, then no shame is too much for you.

    Unless of course it’s needed for the carbon price increase of 0.012 cents for a packet of Tim Tams? That extra one cent is a breaker.

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    david

    “197
    memoryvault:
    July 31st, 2011 at 11:10 am

    David @ 192

    The “observable facts” are that climate goes in 20 – 30 year cycles, and these cycles fit into aprox 300 year cycles of warming and cooling, as evidenced by the MWP and LIA. The mid 1940′s to mid 1970′s were a cooling cycle, the mid 1970′s to about 2000 were a warming cycle, and now all observable evidence suggests we are entering another cooling cycle.”

    The published data is not consistent with your description. There is an oscillating pattern rolling along. That’s true. But the secular trend is one of a warming atmosphere. The system does not progress in a linear fashion, but it does not revert to the historic mean either. The cycles show are warming trend. This is indisputable.

    It may be comforting to pretend otherwise. But it is not realistic. It is choosing self-delusion. This is a fear response and is understandable. But it is not dealing with the issue.

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    david

    “200
    MaryFJohnston:
    July 31st, 2011 at 11:26 am

    David @192.

    So you’ve read a little bit of science on the warmer primer university sites.

    If you had gone to a real University to study science you would, like us here, understand why you are talking non science.

    Use of words like ” posit” sound very authoritative but in the end can’t hide you lack of real expertise and sense of proportion.”

    This is just a condescending attempt at insult. If you have an alternative explanation for atmospheric warming, state it. If you can state it, support it with evidence. If you have the evidence, publish it.

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    Steve Schapel

    David (#205): “… historic mean”

    You’re kidding, right?

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    Gazza

    Mr Jarmon, Mr Monk, as I said in my previous post, never argue with Idiots. Lets face it these people admire the “Tea-Party” and look what the “Tea-Party” is doing in the USA. Sending it to Default bankruptcy

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    Adam Smith

    I agree with Joanne Nova when she states:

    ….If Gillard had said, “we will price carbon”, would she have won?

    A day before the election Gillard The Australian summarised her policy as saying: “JULIA Gillard says she is prepared to legislate a carbon price in the next term. ”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/julia-gillards-carbon-price-promise/story-fn59niix-1225907522983

    Of course “a carbon price” is completely different to saying “we will price carbon”.

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    P. Dragone

    I hope this convoy is going to plant a few thousand trees to soak up the carbon they will be emitting.

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    david

    [197
    Steve Schapel:
    July 31st, 2011 at 11:07 am

    David (#192)…

    Your comments are interesting. No offence intended, but they seem to indicate that you haven’t really been paying attention. But I am happy to inform you that “the greatest challenge our species has yet had to face”, as you describe it, is nothing to worry about. Just relax about global warming, you’ll be ok. On the other hand, we are faced with many serious and important challenges, one of which at the moment being the threat of insidious totalitarianism. Many people are starting to see the need to cooperate in fighting this.]

    The evidence of atmospheric warming is real. It has not been invented, contrived or faked. There is no conspiracy. There is no “threat of insidious totalitarianism.” There is just a willing suspension of the use of critical thinking and the calm use of reason.

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    imacca

    “You wouldn’t be the “imacca” of RMM (www.rmmlondon.com) who run the WWF online media campaign would you?”

    Sorry to burst your widdle bubble memoryvault, but no actually, i’m not. I’m from sunny (hah!) Perth.

    “imacca
    Not to mention working for the BBC.
    Can anyone say “vested interest” children?
    Can you spell “paid troll”?”

    Don’t work for BBC but for a reputable tertiary institution. Thats probably why i get so annoyed at AGW denialist pseudo science crap and some of the interest group misinfo in our MSM.

    Aren’t paid to post.

    Trolling, well, maybe a bit, sometimes if you define trolling as expressing opinions that you actually do hold that are divergent from the more commonly expressed sentiments on a blog site. I like to read the more far out sites as i think they provide interesting, if sometimes scary and depressing insights into human nature and the Australian body politic. This site is interesting as you get people who post things like:

    “Greenies are not nice people; they hate humans.”

    Well at least the slogans here are longer than 3 words. :)

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    MaryFJohnston

    Re 207.

    “If you have an alternative explanation for atmospheric warming, state it. If you can state it, support it with evidence. If you have the evidence, publish it.”

    I must apologise, I thought you had all the answers and was waiting for your explanation.

    Past experience tells me there is no point communicating on science with graduates of Warmer University; they don’t follow scientific method and don’t want to know anyhow because it’s hard work and besides someone else already understands it eg Bob Brown, so why should they why bother with science that is already “IN”.

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    P. Dragone

    Have any of you checked that the GG will be home when you get there? The convoy rolls up, someone knocks at the GG’s door, and is asked,”Did you have an appointment? Sorry, the GG is away, come back next week.”

    You all do know you are being used, don’t you? It is just another Abbott photo-shoot for 10 seconds on the news, and you are the mugs who are paying for it.

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    Dragone, so you think we should wait for our GDP, employment and quality of life to measureably crash before protesting at a trainwreck we can see coming?

    You don’t have any observable evidence that carbon causes catastrophic warming, even if it did, there’s no economic argument that suggests Australia should go it alone (and without the US and China, we might as well be), and even if it wasn’t economically awful, there’s no political legitimacy in doing it, and even if we abandon Australia we’d make 0.00C difference to the global climate. This is insanity piled on stupidity raised to the power of ineptitude.

    Who is “using” people? I work mostly pro bono to try to save you from paying an unnecessary large impost. I can see you don’t know what gratitude is. But then, if you are on the gravy train of public spending, I guess I’m a threat to your cash cow. Those who take money from the producers while offering nothing but scorn and insults in return are the real users.

    The line about 0.012 c more for a Tim Tam packet is a joke. You want us to replace our major source of energy for alternatives that cost 2 – 10 times as much, and pretend that it will cost nothing? It’s exactly that kind of baseless misinformation that adds nothing to a polite debate.

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    imacca

    “I hope this convoy is going to plant a few thousand trees to soak up the carbon they will be emitting.”

    I hope that the people driving their trucks all the way there wont be trying to claim fuel and mileage as a legitimate business expense.

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    Steve Schapel

    David (#207): “If you have an alternative explanation for atmospheric warming, state it.”

    Leaving aside for the moment the contention that atmospheric warming is a bad thing (which I don’t think it is). And leaving aside for a moment the fact that your description of the Greenhouse Effect (#193) is wrong – let’s just give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you really do know what you are talking about but just poor at explaining.

    So we can focus on the explanation that you want an “alternative explanation” to. So your explanation is basically that there is an atmospheric warming trend, and that this is a result of increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide. Am I correct?

    If so, could you please let us know approximately when this warming trend dates from? And also, can you let us know approximately when the significant atmospheric CO2 increase dates from?

    Thanks.

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    Davo

    Whatever these pimply-faced GetUp groupies waffle on about, the reality is that deliberately putting up the cost of living for us all; costing hundreds of jobs and destroying both our economy and global competitiveness is the most divisive thing Australia has seen.

    It is breeding a dogged hatred of this government and the entire green style of thinking – a hatred that will not only hound this government to the grave, but will result a long-term backlash against its bloated bureaucracy and fringe parties like the greens.

    Every utterance that this government makes; every slip-up; every opinion poll; every economic figure; every pull-back in business investment; every hiccup in so-called renewable energy; every unemployment figures will, I swear, be hammered, publicised, and if necessary misrepresented. And, by God, there will be no let up on these people who chose to take this path of wealth redistribution and petty social engineering. Bring it on….

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    imacca: On this site you need to justify your terms. When you say: Thats probably why i get so annoyed at AGW denialist pseudo science crap a you need to state what it is we deny. Which peer reviewed paper do we deny?

    Your posts will be held indefinitely in moderation until you either provide evidence to back up the name-calling or apologize for resorting to invented insults which destroy any rational chance at meaningful discussion.

    If you can provide any empirical evidence (models are not evidence) that CO2 causes major warming (greater than 1.2 degrees for a doubling) you will be a hero for the IPCC. They can’t.

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    MaryFJohnston

    re 213

    “Don’t work for BBC but for a reputable tertiary institution. Thats probably why i get so annoyed at AGW denialist pseudo science crap”

    Doesn’t say much for University level science in WA.

    That reminds me of that sweet young PHd thing dumping on Christopher Monkton and his comments on science of AGW and when it was all over she turns out to be studying, science? no No she’s into some thing more useful ; “Climate Change Ethics”. She’s a philosopher or Lawyer or maybe both.

    Hah de ha ha ha ha.

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    P. Dragone

    {Dragone, so you think we should wait for our GDP, employment and quality of life to measureably crash before protesting at a trainwreck we can see coming? ]

    Wow, you are a gloomy one. ROFL
    [snip repetition from previous comment ]

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    P. Dragone

    [Imacca...Your posts will be held indefinitely in moderation until you either provide evidence to back up the name-calling or apologize for resorting to invented insults which destroy any rational chance at meaningful discussion.]
    You are censoring Imacca for not providing empirical evidence while you let people quote MONKTON, whose only claim to fame is to be a scholar in the Classics? You are joking, right?

    (No.It was for the name-calling and invented insults) CTS

    (Quoting Jo: “Your posts will be held indefinitely in moderation until you either provide evidence to back up the name-calling or apologize for resorting to invented insults which destroy any rational chance at meaningful discussion.”) CTS

    (Your complaint is baseless) CTS

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    memoryvault

    David @ 206

    “The published data is not consistent with your description. There is an oscillating pattern rolling along. That’s true. But the secular trend is one of a warming atmosphere. The system does not progress in a linear fashion, but it does not revert to the historic mean either. The cycles show are warming trend. This is indisputable.”

    So, there have been no glacial or interglacial cycles, no Minoan Warming Period, no Roman Warming Period, no Dryas Minimum. no Little Ice Age?

    And you obtained this “indisputable science” from The Goracle perhaps?

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    Mark D.

    Gazza @ 209

    You are an idiot.

    The Tea party had nothing to do with the “bankruptcy” you claim. That money was spent primarily by government controlled by the Democrats over 30 some years. We have something like 14 Trillion in debt, equal to 40,000 USD per person. The Tea Party is standing firm to stop the hemorrhaging. Affix blame where it belongs.

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    Mark D.

    David at various:

    You have certainly mastered the Appeal to Authority. You think we are warming? and you have been indoctrinated to believe that whatever is happening, humans are at fault.

    I pity you, I pity your ignorance. For certain, you need to be taxed more as penance for your human ways.

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    Mark D.

    Immacca and Dragone,

    You’re just more idiots from the green socialist “I haven’t seen a tax I didn’t like” world.

    ARE YOU AFRAID?

    YOU SHOULD BE………

    Breaker Breaker 19, we got us a CONVOY!

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    P. Dragone: #223
    July 31st, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    You are censoring Imacca for not providing empirical evidence

    No, you’ll find his/her comments are being held for use of the word “denier”

    Get Up and read ‘guide for comments’ before jumping to conclusions

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    Gazza

    225 – tell the Americans that – You seem to be exactly the type that Twain had on his mind when he made his quip about not arguing with idiots
    Still its nice to see anti-intellectualism alive and well not just in the “Tea-Party” but here

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    MaryFJohnston

    Well put Davo @219.

    Many of us oldies can see our last years being spent, not in some comfort, but in wondering what were the benefits of 45 years of hard work and saving.

    It is especially disheartening to see the vast amounts of our tax money that flow to the United Nations Bank and redistribution centre for Expired Politicians who have screwed up their own countries. Now they want to screw up the whole world.

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    P. Dragone

    Let get this straight. [snip] I thought your convoy was about people saying what they think? [snip by ED]

    You can run your convoy, it will make not whit of difference to anything, not any more than the Tony Abbott Daily Stunt. It is just a shame that these people will be using their own and their families’ resources in a futile knee-jerk reaction to fear-mongering.

    These people will drive down, it will be make a few grabs in the news-cycle, a few you-tube vids and website links, and then they will see their money gone and for nothing. The GG is not going to change the government, the carbon price will go through and these people will see then, there was nothing to fear. You, however, will have this on your resume forever.

    (Will you STOP complaining about the moderation decisions?) CTS

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  • #
    Steve Schapel

    David (#212):

    Wow! You sure make a lot of assumptions!

    The evidence of atmospheric warming is real. It has not been invented, contrived or faked.

    FYI, I don’t know anyone who doesn’t realise that there has been a recent warming trend. I don’t know anyone who thinks this has been “invented, contrived or faked”. For some reason, you seem to assume that I or others here think otherwise?

    There is no conspiracy.

    Huh? Who said anything about a conspiracy? For some reason, you seem to assume that I or others here think there is a conspiracy?

    There is no ‘threat of insidious totalitarianism.’

    Well, now we’re in trouble. If you know nothing about Agenda 21, and if you haven’t perceived the international political trends towards social control, I suggest you do some research.

    And, while I’m on making suggestions, let me also say that there are quite a lot of people who frequent this blog who are very well informed on some of the issues and questions you have raised. Much better informed than you apparently are. It may be a learning experience for you.

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    imacca

    Well, i suppose we are down to the kind of position that Julia Gillard expressed on Q&A recently. who do you believe, CSIRO or Alan Jones? To paraphrase, CSIRO or Monkton??

    Me, ill go with the CSIRO:

    To quote from http://www.csiro.au/files/files/pvfo.pdf:

    5. What this means.
    Australia will be hotter in coming decades
    Australian average temperatures are projected to rise by 0.6 to 1.5 ºC by 2030. If global greenhouse gas emissions continue to grow at rates consistent with past trends, warming is projected to be in the range of 2.2 to 5.0 ºC by 2070. Warming is projected to be lower near the coast and in Tasmania and higher in central and northwestern Australia. These changes will be felt through an increase in the number of hot days.

    Much of Australia will be drier in coming decades
    In Australia compared to the period 1981-2000, decreases in rainfall are likely in the decades to come in southern areas of Australia during winter, in southern and eastern areas during spring, and in south-west Western Australia during autumn. An increase in the number of dry days is expected across the country, but it is likely that there will be an increase in intense rainfall events in many areas.

    It is very likely that human activities have caused most of the global warming observed since 1950
    There is greater than 90% certainty that increases in greenhouse gas emissions have caused most of the global warming since the mid-20th century. International research shows that it is extremely unlikely that the observed warming could be explained by natural causes alone. Evidence of human influence has been detected in ocean warming, sea-level rise, continental-average temperatures, temperature extremes and wind patterns. CSIRO research has shown that higher greenhouse gas levels are likely to have caused about half of the winter rainfall reduction in south-west Western Australia.

    Climate change is real
    Our observations clearly demonstrate that climate change is real. CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology will continue to provide observations and research so that Australia’s responses are underpinned by science of the highest quality.

    End quote.

    No Jo, i’m not going to go trawling through papers many of which are very specialised and not readily comprehensible to those outside a specific field. I don’t have to. I actually trust the advice the premier applied science institution in the country as CSIRO have a pretty good record on scientific matters. As an exercise in science communication i think that CSIRO are doing a pretty good job on this one. They may not be communicating a message you want to hear, but frankly i dont think the science cares what you want to hear.

    Anyhow, banned or not, meh? Its your blog and if you’d like to preserve the ideological purity of it that’s up to you. Whatever, blogs like this do have an entertainment value as its interesting to watch people of a very different ideological persuasion vent, froth and bubble.

    [REPLY: Imacca, thanks for making a sincere attempt to answer the question. That's an excellent start, it is however, not evidence. You admit you take the CSIRO on trust, which is reasonable, but since we discuss scientific papers here (and you can't) we are obviously not denying anything other than the fallacy of "argument from authority". We just have a different opinion and we are better informed, which doesn't mean we are right, but it means your namecalling is inappropriate. If you apologize for calling us deniers, you will be free to post ad lib, and of course, to ask the very hardest questions you would like to ask. I have to take a hard line on the inaccurate term denier, as threads degenerate in hours once people start throwing names they can't back up, and won't apologize for. -- JN]

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    Gazza

    If you know nothing about Agenda 21, and if you haven’t perceived the international political trends towards social control, I suggest you do some research

    You got your [snip] hat on today buddy :)

    [ED]

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    P. Dragone

    Will you stop complaining about moderation decisions?

    No, I am not complaining, I am pointing out discrepancies. Isn’t that what you do with AGW?
    Immacca cannot say ‘denier’ but:
    “Jovial, all your comments are held until you apologize for your baseless slurs, give us your real name and promise to lift standards of reasoning. Ad homs are the mark of a stoneage brain.
    Stoneage brain? Is that a complement then? Sorry, I misunderstood.

    [REPLY: Ms or Mr Dragone, ad hominems were described as a fallacy from aristotelian times 2400 years ago. Namecalling was certainly part of the stoneage tribal "thinking", and that's what Jovial, and others have contributed. If you can back up a term, it's descriptive, if you toss an insult,you can't justify, it's namecalling. -- JN]

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    Cate S

    Jo – exciting news again today! This convoy has taken off like a “frog in a sock”! Man – I just am amazed at how many people are supporting the Convoys! Look out Canberra – here we come!
    I am sorry for all those “deniers” of the Convoys – but bugger off – you come in here and whinge and whine – well how about you get into the convoy and have YOUR say – whats that..yeah, your right – you will be outnumbered by Aussies opposing your narrow views – ahh…democracy at work – now you just ‘gotta love that ;)
    This is 100% grass-roots people grabbing the opportunity to be heard and they will be heard! They will make a difference – and ALL Federal Politicians will have to lift their “games”on all aspects of running this country – now THAT is the will of the people!
    Oh – whoever above wrote about planting trees (cough cough) for our “emissions” on the way down – dont worry about that lovey, I have THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of trees growing that will more than alleviate YOUR concerns – don’t loose and sleep over it :)
    Geeze Jo – are you able to put a good Aussie song on here – today is a GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE! :)

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    memoryvault

    P Dragone @ 235

    Tell you what. How you and I move the debate over to unRealClimate or SepticalScince, I’ll keep calling you a cultist, and we’ll see how many of my comments get posted.

    Actually, not even any need for name-calling. I’ll point out what is wrong with CAGW “theory” and we’ll see how long my comments survive.

    Jo’s is the most un-moderated “climate” site on the net without exception.

    And YOU know it – it’s why you’re here being obnoxious – because you can.

    (He no longer can.He is now under moderation) CTS

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    imacca

    “It is the baseless name-calling,that has put you under moderation.You are not officially banned) CTS”

    [snip. more namecalling. Still waiting for an apology and any hint that you are here for polite conversation. If you have a persuasive argument, you won't need to throw names eh? -- JN]

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    Adam Smith

    I agree with Tony Abbott that carbon dioxide is “weightless”, and the fact carbon dioxide is weightless demonstrates how dishonest the government is charging $23 per tonne (a measure of weight!) for CO2. This proves that Gillard’s government is misleading us all, and only Tony Abbott knows about how carbon dioxide works.

    You can hear Abbott explain that carbon dioxide is “weightless” in this story here:
    http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2011/s3281443.htm

    I must admit I don’t understand how any company will pay the tax since carbon dioxide is weightless.

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    Gazza

    This is 100% grass-roots people grabbing the opportunity to be heard and they will be heard! They will make a difference – and ALL Federal Politicians will have to lift their “games”on all aspects of running this country – now THAT is the will of the people!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs5bnVoZK4Q&feature=related

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    P. Dragone

    Memoryvault.
    You can call me a cultist, I do not care, no skin off my nose, and I have never been to the site you mention. I am just posting facts and opinions based on them.

    If you find my facts obnoxious, it says more about you than me.

    Have a nice day.

    [REPLY: And you post facts and opinions based on a site you have never been too? That says more about you.... JN]

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    Projectenfour

    Something to cheer everyone up (except the GetUp stooges).

    (a John Clarke, Bryan Dawes skit)
    (The Customer)
    [Scene: A car yard. BRYAN is perusing the stock. He is approached by JOHN]
    John: Morning! Looking for a new car?
    Bryan: Nope. Prime Minister, actually.
    John: You’re the third one this morning. Anything in mind?
    Bryan: You know……. nothing fancy, reliable, economical family model. Something to get the country from A to B.
    John: You mean like a Howard?
    Bryan: Yeah….a little Johnny. Nothing flash, does the job. Low maintenance, economical, sensible. Runs for years, no troubles.
    John: So…. you used to have one?
    Bryan: Yeah. About 10 years. Great little model – don’t know why I got rid of him –biggest mistake I’ve ever made…
    John: What happened?
    Bryan: Traded him in for a Kevin 07.
    John: Big mistake…
    Bryan: Lot of people bought it. Good political mileage.
    John: How was the Kevin 07?
    Bryan: Came with a $900 factory rebate – that was good.
    John: Anything else?
    Bryan: Not much. Sounded nice but nothing under the bonnet. It was a lemon.
    John: Didn’t stick around for long did it?
    Bryan: Nah – had a factory recall. Shipped overseas and was never seen again.
    John: What was the problem?
    Bryan: Lots. But the final straw was the navigation system. Plug it in and it automatically loses its own way.
    John: Whatcha got now?
    Bryan: It’s a Gillard-Brown.
    John: The hybrid?
    Bryan: Yeah. The Eco-drive system – not a good idea. An engine that can’t deliver hooked up to a transmission stuck in permanent reverse…
    John: Green paintwork with a red interior. And steering that always lurches to the left for no apparent reason – that’s the one?
    Bryan: The Fustercluck model.
    John: The only one they made, Bryan. Not the vehicle of choice for the road to recovery – but did they finish up fixing the navigation system?
    Bryan: Made it worse. Turn it on and it does a press release, heads off in all directions and goes nowhere.
    John: So that’s why you’re here?
    Bryan: That’s right. I’m stuck with a government that’s wasteful, expensive, ineffective and past its use by date. I don’t suppose you’ve heard of the “Cash for Clunkers” scheme?
    John: Join the queue brother.

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    Cate S

    lol – is that it “Gazza” – man oh man – so…like a show hey buddy – like a “drink – ” here you go buddy, have a drink on me … :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LODkVkpaVQA

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    Gazza

    Getting under skin are we Catherine ? Cutting close to bone huh ?

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    Cate S

    Well hot diggity dog! I am flattered – really flattered – you actually spelt my name correctly! “Gazza”…keep poking the cobra – er…what happens then? :) Mind you, i did have to think if that was not the wrong choice of song for you…but then i thought no, it is for people to have a laugh at, and see that they can keep smiling – the convoy is happening “Gazza”… :)
    Keep em coming – I love it :)
    Cheers Cate :)

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    Adam Smith

    You can tell that Abbott is a strong leader because his plan to cut carbon emissions by 5% of 2000 levels by 2020 makes sense. I must admit I don’t know how he will do this, but his policy is better than the Government’s because Abbott has explained that his policy won’t cost any money.

    I went on YouTube and found a video of Abbott explaining his policy here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baUh4pC-MUo

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    Steve Schapel

    Adam (#237)…

    Yes, I had seen recently where Mr Abbott was reported to have said “weightless” with respect to CO2. A silly slip, for sure.

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    Mark D.

    Gassy at 229:

    tell the Americans that – You seem to be exactly the type that Twain had on his mind when he made his quip about not arguing with idiots
    Still its nice to see anti-intellectualism alive and well not just in the “Tea-Party” but here

    Dumbass, I am an American. No one I know blames the Tea Party for the debt we now are mired in.

    Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) was a great American with more sense in his pinky finger than the entirety of two generations of your family.

    You think of yourself as an “intellectual”? ROFLMAO…….

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    Adam Smith

    “Yes, I had seen recently where Mr Abbott was reported to have said “weightless” with respect to CO2. A silly slip, for sure.”

    Yes it was just a one-off silly slip on Friday. I even heard him say it on radio.

    He also said the same thing a bit over two weeks ago, that’s how I know it is true.

    ”It’s actually pretty hard (to measure CO2 emissions) to do this because carbon dioxide is invisible and it’s weightless and you can’t smell it,” Abbott began, projecting frankness.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/he-says-she-says-in-a-faux-election-campaign-20110715-1hhx3.html

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    memoryvault

    Gazza @ 238

    Funny, I don’t remember anybody from the convoy organisers or participants referring to coal trains as “death trains”.

    Or any calls from the convoy organisers or participants for anybody to be put on “Nuremberg-style” trials for “crimes against humanity”.

    Nor do I recollect anybody from their side of the fence calling for “deniers to be tattooed” so others will be able to “recognise them for what they are”.

    And I certainly haven’t heard anybody on this side of the debate calling for the opposition to be “gassed” as a “final solution”.

    But I do admit to having heard and read many similar calls from your side of the fence.

    If we must invoke Godwin’s Law (as you now have) let’s make sure all know who the Nazis are in this debate.

    The Greens have already left the CO2 debate behind and are now pushing for control of the media, scrapping of the coal industry, use of 100% renewables (impossible with existing technology), significantly higher taxes, persecution of Jews and fining and/or jailing of dissenters, amongst other things.

    Do YOU still think you “can control them”?

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    Adam Smith

    Dumbass, I am an American. No one I know blames the Tea Party for the debt we now are mired in.

    I blame the congress. It has passed laws in the past demanding that the President spend a certain amount of money, but it is now refusing to increase the debt ceiling to enable him to raise enough money in order to perform the spending that the congress has passed laws saying he must do.

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    Gazza

    Dumbass, I am an American. No one I know blames the Tea Party for the debt we now are mired in.

    Except for Bohener, McCain, the half of the GOP that aren’t “Tea-Party”, Bloomberg.com,most of Americas News and Business publications, etc etc.

    I Could go on forever actually. The Tea-Party faction of the Republicans is pushing your Country to bankruptcy and ensuring that you have a depression, and all for party-political purposes.
    How many links do you want me to post ? It’s not as if the web is berift of them.

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    Gazza

    247 – One would have thought that the youtube was in reference to the quote that was referenced.

    Something to do with rhetoric perchance ?

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith – various

    Adam, it is accepted that possibly the only person in Australia today capable of making JuLIAR and Labor look good is Tony Abbott and his ridiculous “climate change” policy.

    Posting endless snide comments pointing out that Australians have a very poor choice in politics at the moment really accomplishes nothing.

    The polls don’t actually really show “growing support” for Abbott and the Coalition. What they actually depict is falling support for JuLIAR and Labor, which is translated by the pollsters into “support” for Abbott due to the “two party preferred” method of poll accounting.

    Unless Abbott and the Coalition take a stand on this in the very near future I confidently predict many Coalition sitting members will find themselves facing a very real and serious challenge from conservative people running as Independents, or for small, conservative parties.

    Polls consistently show 75 – 80% of Australians don’t want ANY form of “climate change” policy. The Coalition is running out of time to grasp that.

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    Gazza

    251 – Half of the LNP want Carbon Pricing. Turnbull will head the LNP long before that will happen

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    memoryvault

    gazza @ 250

    Your link was to a track depicting the rise of Nazism in pre-WWII Germany, which you somehow equate with the “will of the people” – IE democracy. So my observations about you and your murderous ilk remain valid despite your pathetic attempts to slither away from the actions of your fellow brownshirts.

    So tell me gazza, where should us evil “deniers” be tattooed – on the forehead, or the forearm?

    Or are you in favour of getting us straight onto the death trains and off to the gas chambers post-haste?

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    memoryvault

    gazza @ 252

    “Half of the LNP want Carbon Pricing. Turnbull will head the LNP long before that will happen”

    Possibly – but 75% of the electorate DON’T.

    So your point is ?????

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    Steve Schapel

    Memoryvault (#251):

    Hear, hear! And well put. I am getting sick of the assumption being made that people who are critical of the Gillard/Brown fiasco are therefore supporters of Abbott’s “policy”.

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    Mark D.

    Adam Smith @ 248:

    I blame the congress

    There is plenty of blame to go around. There are few solutions but they are simple in principle:

    1. Stop spending more than revenues i.e. balance the budget.
    2. Reduce the size and scope of federal government.

    This is what our Tea Party is doing.

    Gazza @ 249:

    “I could go on forever”

    No. You can go on till your allotted time expires.

    You know nothing about politics here, you know nothing about science anywhere. You are simply an obnoxious troll trying to distract from the great AU Convoy. Go away.

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    Wow, just catching up on some more of the comments on here. If we convoy participants and supporters are all so silly and numbers are going to be so low, then why the panic? The sudden influx of people who have never before commented on Jo’s site is amusing, to say the least. Ad hom attacks are so passe. I’ll bet you vitriolic commenters consider yourselves to be “intellectuals!?”

    What does being a member of any political party or any other organisation (beyond ideas and policy) have to do with anything? This is about ideas — and integrity.

    I’m a member of the Liberal Party, but I’m critical of the direct action plan.

    I’m not a member of the Climate Sceptics Party, but I interact with them and proudly support their opposition to policies being advanced on the back of alarmist, unscientific scaremongering.

    I have friends I respect who are hard-working Aussies who are traditional members of the Labor Party (most of whom are not happy at all right now!).

    I’m not a member of IPA, but am ashamed of myself, and will be remedying that as soon as possible. [I attended the Vaclav Klaus function in Perth on 22 July, and it was fantastic. What a calm, reasonable, down-to-earth and SMART man he is, and his talk of comparing the current environmental extremist movement to communism (amongst other things) was fabulous. His address to the National Press Club can be found here. I met John Roskam and was wholly impressed with his openness and willingness to state his opinion without fear or favour.]

    I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Communist Party. :-) But I could not care less, in a forum in which ideas are exchanged and debated, if the person opposite me is or not. What matters is what he is saying, promoting, lobbying for and implementing. What his name is, who pays him, who he drinks with and what organisations he is part of is of no interest to me (beyond understanding how he has arrived at his current philosophy).

    Australia deserves deliberate consideration. And I’ve considered that Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan deliberately reneged on a promise they made in the election campaign so that they could form a minority government and gain power. That would be fine, if only they would honour the taxpayers of this country by not implementing a piece of legislation that nobody voted for and for which support is paltry.

    There IS no mandate, and to implement any policy that has massive implications for our economy and way of life now is to thumb their noses at Australia and Australians.

    We must at least peacefully demonstrate our anger, disappointment and dismay.

    Cheers,
    Janet

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    Kerry

    Hi Joanne Nova

    I know you’re probably really busy but I’d appreciate a reply/acknowledgement to my post at 203
    Just to clear up for your supporters that there are currently a lot of death threats across the board to pollies of all stripes.

    And that both sides need to tone down the rhetoric.

    For the most part our elections yield close to 50-50 in 2PP terms.
    The community, therefore, will always be pushing for one side or the other.

    It’s great for our democracy that people can peacefully protest – with the emphasis being on “peacefully”
    we don’t need for our leaders to be surrounded by hordes of security – let’s keep it that way.

    Thanks for your time

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    Hey, Kerry, I don’t know if you have read much on Jo Nova’s site before, but an unwritten rule is that people (even if we are not “intellectuals”) who participate in the discussions don’t need Jo or anyone else to interpret things (like the link you provided) for us. We rely upon our own beautiful minds. It’s hard at first, but after awhile, one gets to where one can discern totally independent of anyone else. It’s wild stuff!

    Why do you require acknowledgement of anything? That’s really funny.

    Oh, and I’d also refer you to Jo’s admonition at #172. :-)

    Cheers,
    Janet

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    Joan

    I found this site because a friend sent me here. I think is is great that you want to take action but how can you afford this? I find it hard to buy petrol to travel to work each day. I hope you are not going into to debt to do it? It is so sad that we are driven to this.

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    Kerry

    Hi Janet

    Thanks for the info re the unwritten rule but I was not asking for an interpretation, I was replying to a request from Joanne Nova to quote current death threats

    This was part of the post at 135 that I was replying to:

    [The death threats were a beat up of one old threat from 5 years ago, plus a swathe of rude ones recycled from 2010. Which real threat has been verified or is being investigated? Quote it. JN]

    I assumed that JN was Joanne Nova, but maybe I’m wrong about that.

    As far as the reference to 172, I concur.
    I have been polite and I have not made colourful comments.

    Cheers

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    Adam Smith

    There is plenty of blame to go around. There are few solutions but they are simple in principle:

    1. Stop spending more than revenues i.e. balance the budget.
    2. Reduce the size and scope of federal government.

    You missed out some steps:
    3. Cutting spending on payments that people in the Tea party don’t receive is fine, but it is wrong to cut spending on payments they do receive.
    4. Cutting government spending is good, but not if it is Medicare, because in some strange way that doesn’t count as government spending.
    5. Government spending by the current administration is socialism, but when the previous administration funded a new prescription drug benefit and tax cuts using debt, that is fine.

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    Adam Smith

    There is plenty of blame to go around. There are few solutions but they are simple in principle:

    1. Stop spending more than revenues i.e. balance the budget.

    This won’t happen with the current House of Representatives because the Republicans refuse to negotiate.

    The Clinton administration was the last one to produce budget surpluses, which it achieved by BOTH cutting spending and increasing taxes for high income earners. If you think that the budget can be balanced simply by cutting spending then you are only dealing with half of the problem. U.S. government revenue as proportion of GDP is at its lowest level since the early 1960s.

    The Bush administration essentially funded a trillion dollars worth of tax cuts using debt, which is economic suicide.

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    memoryvault

    This is a thread about the “Convoy of No Confidence”.

    Could those of you involved move the debate about American politics and fiscal policies elsewhere? What started out as a lame attempt to equate the Tea Party with the organisers of the Convoy, and a well-deserved rebuttal, has now moved into a full-blown debate about who is to blame for the fact that the U.S. is trillions of dollars in debt.

    NOT our problem and we don’t especially care – we have enough idiot politicians and idiot policies to deal with locally, thank you.

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    Adam Smith

    NOT our problem and we don’t especially care – we have enough idiot politicians and idiot policies to deal with locally, thank you.

    Yeah I agree, for example I am opposed to Tony Abbott’s policy of charging extra tax on businesses that pay $5 million worth of tax to fund a paid maternity leave scheme.

    That’s socialism!

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    david

    “226………Mark D.:

    David at various:

    You have certainly mastered the Appeal to Authority. You think we are warming? and you have been indoctrinated to believe that whatever is happening, humans are at fault…….I pity you, I pity your ignorance……”

    Don’t take my word for anything. Go and have a look at the US Government site. Free inquiry.

    http://gcmd.nasa.gov/Resources/pointers/meteo.html

    It is presumptuous of you – at the least – to say I have been indoctrinated. Far from being doctrinaire, I prefer to think of myself as being open to persuasion; as having an inquiring and reflective disposition. I think this is a serious issue for everyone, including those whose reflexive response it to dismiss the research.

    I have also lived a fairly long time and seen all kinds of things come to pass – including things that seemed a whole lot less probable than atmospheric warming. I also know a few things about risks, costs and benefits, and the way humans are wired up. It would all just be so much better for everyone if there was less passion, fewer insults, less hypocrisy and less politics. This should be a combat-free zone. It is a serious subject.

    We should be using reason, patience, understanding and goodwill. These are the only tools we have and it is a great pity to seem them thrown away on the basis of misinformation and delusion.

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    rota rangex

    “He hopes to generate enough support and media attention via the “vote of no confidence” convoy to convince the Governor General to dissolve the parliament or to convince Julia Gillard to go back to the polls. “

    WTF! You do understand how Westminster democracy works, don’t you? The GG’s role is not to dissolve parliament because a bunch of bludgers who should be at work decide to take a trucking holiday in Canberra.

    The GG can’t dissolve parliament or can’t remove a government just on a whim. The government needs to lose confidence of the House of Representatives. Loss of confidence can be inferred in a number of ways – loss of supply, a no confidence motion, inability to appoint a speaker of the government’s choice… Even if that happens, the GG doesn’t get involved – it’s up to the Speaker to make decisions about advising the GG about the state of the house. But unless something like that happens, then no dice. Even if the GG were foolish enough to try something like that (and I’m sure this GG wouldn’t) any such attempt at a coup would be overturned by the High Court.

    [snip reference to "leeches" ]

    [Sure there is no GG clause for this, but you can bet the country will notice and so will all the marginal labor members (half that team at the moment). That's exactly why you are so afraid of this protest. JN]

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    memoryvault

    Kerry @ 260

    Not sure exactly what it is you’re driving at Kerry.

    This is site mainly about climate science. It is run by a lady named Jo.

    Jo made a comment in relation to a post about alleged threats received by “climate scientists” which turned out to be a beat-up of a non-story that was five years old.

    In reply you post a link to a story about guy arrested for making threats relating to what happened to the live cattle trade, and another to a story about politicians getting threats from a variety of people for a variety of reasons – including from religious fanatics and people supporting asylum seekers.

    Nowhere in either article did I see the words “climate”, “carbon”, or even “tax” for that matter.

    So, “who” exactly should be “toning down the debate”?

    Those involved in the live cattle trade fiasco?
    Those involved in the asylum seeker debate?
    Or those pushing religious fanaticism?

    And whichever, what on earth does it have to do with Jo Nova, climate “science”, the carbon tax, or the Convoy of No Confidence?

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 264

    Try reading my post @ 251.

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    P. Dragone

    Some more facts, if you have the spine to put them to your blog-commentators.
    In reply to the errors in assertions of CO2 being weigtless:

    The weight of 22.4 litres, one mole of CO2 is 12 + 16 +16 = 44 grams

    So one litre of CO2 is 44/22.4 = 1.9643 grams

    Or two grams close enough, heavier than air.

    Finding the % of CO2 in a sample of air is easy enough, it is a routine scientific procedure, so finding the weight of CO2 produced by a polluter is also easy.

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    P. Dragone

    @ 270
    mole = molecule

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    Rob Moore

    Hey all you new trolls that Get up have sent in here Read this-

    NAB sets up carbon deskPoint Carbon – 23 April. Carbon Market Aust-NZ. The National Bank of Australia appointed Jennifer Lauber Patterson to head up a new carbon desk, which will deal in certified emissions reductions (CERs) and renewable energy certificates (RECs). The trading desk will focus on Australia and New Zealand. Lauber Patterson joins the bank from consultancy Innovative Carbon, which she founded in 2009

    And this-

    Council of DirectorsClick on the Director’s name for their profile
    Chairman
    Robert Purves
    Board Member, WWF International; Member, Wentworth Group of Concerned Scientists; Director, Purves Environmental Fund; Principal, RPG Management

    Company Secretary
    David Brand
    Managing Director, New Forests

    Finance Director
    Nick Sankey
    Executive Vice President, Head of Utilities, Energy & Renewables, Commonwealth Bank of Australia

    National Councillors

    Fadi Geha
    Managing Director, EcoView Technologies
    Simon Gardener Lee
    General Manager, Marketing & Strategy, SITA Environmental Solutions

    Alex Paton
    Manager, Capability Marketing, Water & Environment – Sinclair Knight Merz (SKM)
    Anne Pellegrino
    General Manager Government and Utilities – Energetics

    Bruce Thomas
    Director, Carbon Training International
    John White
    Executive Director, Ignite Energy Resources

    David Williamson
    Managing Director, URS Asia Pacific

    Special EBA guest interview
    Martijn Wilder
    Martijn Wilder heads Baker & McKenzie’s Global Climate Change and Emissions Trading Practice which was the first of its kind, established in 1997 and now with over 50 specialist lawyers across the firm’s international network. Martijn is regarded as one of the leading legal advisors in the world having worked in the area for over 10 years. Representing an international client base, Martijn has advised numerous governments and international agencies on the development and design of climate change and emissions trading laws. He also works with an international client base on international carbon transactions on a daily basis. Martijn has always worked with market leading clients on market leading deals. In this ‘interview’ with Jack Whelan, Martijn shares some insights on the recent vacuum to appear in the Australian and international climate change policy environment.

    THIS is what it’s all about- not CO2 or Sea Levels. These depicted along with all the other b/wankers are there for the spoils. Air trading = junk bonds. Turnbull types are in it for the $ and the agenda 21 template siuts the socialist wealth tranfer to the lucky few.

    See you all in CANBERRA!

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    Adam Smith

    The weight of 22.4 litres, one mole of CO2 is 12 + 16 +16 = 44 grams

    So one litre of CO2 is 44/22.4 = 1.9643 grams

    Or two grams close enough, heavier than air.

    No, this is untrue. Carbon Dioxide is weightless, any scientist knows that.

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    david

    “….could you please let us know approximately when this warming trend dates from? And also, can you let us know approximately when the significant atmospheric CO2 increase dates from?….”

    Sure. The data I’ve seen shows that certainly from around 1930. There are oscillations from year to year and decade to decade. But there has not been one year since 1930 in which the global temperature has been below the mean for 1880-1930. That is, the last 80 years have been notably warmer than the preceding 50. And within those multi-decade frames, the most recent 30 years have been hotter than the preceding 50 years.

    So the atmosphere is warmer. And there are corresponding observations of other physical phenomena – observations of rainfall patterns, ice-melts, tundra-thaw, thermal expansion in parts of the oceans, acidification of some parts of the marine water column, of changes to both terrestrial and marine eco-systems – that are consistent with observations of the atmosphere.

    These things are documented. They are also explicable.

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    Adam Smith

    Adam Smith @ 264

    Try reading my post @ 251.

    I had already read it before you posted this message asking me to read it.

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    memoryvault

    P Dragone @ 251

    Try reading my post at 251.

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    Gazza

    psst You wanna buy [SNIP]

    [If you mention a foil hat again you'll be fully censored] ED

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    Sceptical Sam

    MattB @100

    Answer: The world changed at Copenhagen or hadn’t you noticed.

    When all Australia’s competitors agree simultaneously to implement a Carbon (Dioxide) Tax then we should consider one ourselves. To implement a CO2 tax before then is nothing but economic sabotage – which has always been a tactic of the left and the communists.

    Ms Gillard lied about not bringing on a Carbon Tax. She and the ALP are morally and ethically bankrupt.

    The Convoy will let her know that we will not be part of her lie.

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    Adam Smith

    To implement a CO2 tax before then is nothing but economic sabotage – which has always been a tactic of the left and the communists.

    You’re forgetting and the United Nations, World Bank, Freemasons, International Monetary Fund, European Union, NATO and AEPC.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 273

    But being a typically ignorant, ill-mannered troll hell-bent on being disruptive and not much else, you’re just going to go on posting about Abbott and pretending that this site is full of his fans who might actually be offended.

    Personally I can think of very little you could write rubbishing Abbott that I wouldn’t totally agree with. So what’s your point?

    Apart from being stupid and childish, that is.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 277

    “You’re forgetting and the United Nations, World Bank, Freemasons, International Monetary Fund, European Union, NATO and AEPC.”

    You mean their different from all the other power hungry, snouts-in-the-trough mongrels trying to run and ruin our lives, and require mentioning separately?

    Why?

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    Adam Smith

    Personally I can think of very little you could write rubbishing Abbott that I wouldn’t totally agree with. So what’s your point?

    The Government we have is clearly better than the alternative.

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    Adam Smith

    You mean their different from all the other power hungry, snouts-in-the-trough mongrels trying to run and ruin our lives, and require mentioning separately?

    Yes I agree with you that NATO is a corrupt organisation. All it did is help protect us during the Cold War.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 280

    The Government we have is clearly better than the alternative.

    Given that the current government of Australia is QEII, and the only alternative is Mad Charlie, yes.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 281

    Yes I agree with you that NATO is a corrupt organisation. All it did is help protect us during the Cold War.

    That would be the same NATO currently murdering Libyans in the name of “democracy”?

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    Gazza

    Howard as Treasurer
    Double digit Umemployment
    Double digit inflation
    Double Digit interest rates

    00

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    Kerry

    memoryvault:
    July 31st, 2011 at 5:29 pm
    Kerry @ 260
    Not sure exactly what it is you’re driving at Kerry.
    This is site mainly about climate science. It is run by a lady named Jo.
    Jo made a comment in relation to a post about alleged threats received by “climate scientists” which turned out to be a beat-up of a non-story that was five years old.

    Thanks memoryvault
    I didn’t know that the reference was to alleged threats received by climate scientists. Fair enough. As I said I was referencing a quote at 135 and didn’t see the connection.

    Still, I thought this site was about a convoy to canberra to demand a new election.
    Constitutionally, the only way for an election to be held is for the PM to call one – or for a sitting member to fall of his/her perch.
    In that context, I thought it timely to proffer my opinion that death threats have been made against politicians of all stripes and that perhaps it’s time for both sides to tone done the rhetoric.

    I said earlier that I hope this rally is successful
    I didn’t mean successful in terms of another election, after all we just had one.
    I meant in terms of numbers and that the rally is peaceful
    I reckon it’s good for democracy for more people to be engaged in the political process.

    Cheers

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    memoryvault

    gazza @ 287

    And your point is?

    In case you haven’t noticed gazza – and it wouldn’t surprise me if you hadn’t, having the attention span of a gnat and all – the people involved in this convoy are pretty peeved with ALL politicians right now.

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    Gazza

    Great lets have anarchy then, who said punks not dead

    00

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    david

    Polemics to the left, polemics to the right. Only polemics. No inquiry. No curiosity or reflection. Just finger-jabbing, denunciation and bile. Poorman’s policy.

    00

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    memoryvault

    Kerr @ 288

    My apologies if there has been any misunderstanding re the death threats thing.

    The PM cannot “call an election”. Please read my post at 191.

    I have my doubts that this rally will be either successful, or peaceful.

    But we can always hope.

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    P. Dragone

    adam smith

    No, this is untrue. Carbon Dioxide is weightless, any scientist knows that.

    Hahahahaha. You really should use a sarcasm emoticon on this site. Otherwise people will believe you.

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    P. Dragone

    Jo made a comment in relation to a post about alleged threats received by “climate scientists” which turned out to be a beat-up of a non-story that was five years old.

    15 July 2011, Monash University.
    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/07/another_day_another_death_thre_1.php
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWVFHJUYVcE

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    Peter

    Great idea, sadly these out of touch politicians need a reality check. Every day now evidence is coming out to prove the global warming scam is a exactly that.

    00

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    memoryvault

    P Dragone @ 294.

    Yeah, a noose – how crass.

    Everybody knows the preferred method of dealing with “unbelievers” is a tattoo on the forehead, followed by a quick trip on the death trains to the gas chambers.

    That is, of course, after the Nuremberg-style “trials against humanity”.

    Or don’t they count because they all the stated wishes of cultists such as yourself?

    10

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    Kerry

    memoryvault @ 292

    thanks for seeing that I didn’t have an ulterior motive/agenda re my earlier posts.

    I think, though, that we are going to have to agree to disagree about the “calling of an election.”

    If you recall the arguments over our constitution in the republic debate, our “rules” are conventions.
    John Howard said at the time that it would be impossible to rewrite our constitution because it would not be possible to codify the accepted conventions.
    I agree with that.

    Our accepted conventions are that the PM of the day nominates an election date.
    The GG is (usually) a rubber stamp.
    That is why the 1975 dismissal of the Whitlam government was perceived as a constitutional crisis – because it went outside the conventions.
    I don’t think there would be a repeat of that now, because of the way it fractured our society.

    For all intents and purposes, elections in Australia are called by the PM.
    In fact, since 1975, the electorate has never given the Senate the numbers to withhold supply to overturn an elected government.

    so, all those rules and regulations of the crown are pretty well obsolete, even though they still stand.

    Cheers

    00

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    Steve Schapel

    David (#272)…

    Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

    It is very curious that you chose 1930 as the date for the beginning of the current warming trend. I think most commentators would put it much earlier than that. But anyway, that’s fine. Funny thing, with the generally accepted figures, there was a steady increase in atmospheric temperatures from about 1910 to about 1940. In fact, this increase was more rapid than any increase since then. So your 1930 falls within that time period.

    Now, here’s the extremely curious problem about all that, David. The increase in CO2 concentration was not appreciable until about 1950. Are you with me? I am trying to relate this to your explanation of temperature increase, as being caused by CO2 increase, you see. So, we have the very rapid temperature increase from 1910 to 1940, and the CO2 increase from 1950. What? I would be most interested in your comments about how this adds up.

    There are a lot of people here who can point you to screeds of data on these matters. For myself, I find these two sites to be a great starting point:
    http://www.climatedata.info/
    http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk/science/curious.htm

    Incidentally, you might also be surprised at what you will learn about some of the other factors you mentioned in your post.

    Best wishes.

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    memoryvault

    P Dragone @ 294

    let’s face it mate, if we’re going to talk about murderous psychopaths, there’s no contest.

    You cultists win hands down.

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    Gazza

    unhingement time

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    memoryvault

    Kerry @ 296

    What are accepted as “conventions” and what exists as the written law, in accordance with (and in order):

    The 1687 Bill of Rights
    The 1688 Bill of Rights Act
    The 1688 Coronation Oath
    The 1901 Australian Constitution

    are two entirely different things.

    The fact that politicians have somehow convinced the bulk of Australians that the written law no longer applies, and has been supplanted by “conventions” is neither here nor there.

    What I wrote at post 191 IS the law. This Convoy offers the opportunity for Australians to remind the politicians that we know that.

    But I doubt that it will happen.

    So, sadly it will be a failure.

    00

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    Adam Smith

    Given that the current government of Australia is QEII, and the only alternative is Mad Charlie, yes.

    What? The Queen (Fra Battenberg) is the Head of State, the Government is the Ministers, led by the Prime Minister.

    That would be the same NATO currently murdering Libyans in the name of “democracy”?

    I’m astonished that people would want to defend Gaddafi.

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    Adam Smith

    The fact that politicians have somehow convinced the bulk of Australians that the written law no longer applies, and has been supplanted by “conventions” is neither here nor there.

    I don’t understand what your point is. The constitution doesn’t mention the Prime Minister at all, so does that mean we shouldn’t have a Prime Minister?

    Our system has worked for 110 years based on the constitution AND conventions working together. The most important convention that the Governor General follows is that the Prime Minister is the leader of the party or parties that can guarantee confidence on the floor of the lower house.

    No one has explained why there should be an election while the PM retains that confidence.

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    P. Dragone

    memoryvault:
    The only people who will be coming for you…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXOwNOf2QXY&feature=related

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    Kerry

    memoryvault @ 300

    don’t fret.

    I rather like the way our conventions have evolved.
    We don’t tug a forelock, but we respect convention.

    And, even if we don’t break with the constitutional monarchy (after all, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it) we still have our own Australian take on the way it should work.
    And that is, as Australians we have every right to call our own elections, not at the whim of some far-off monarchical will.

    Because, I think you know, you will cause a riot if the GG calls an election, according to antiquated English law.
    Be careful what you wish for.

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    P. Dragone

    The fact that politicians have somehow convinced the bulk of Australians that the written law no longer applies, and has been supplanted by “conventions” is neither here nor there.

    That is okay then. If we stick to the letter of the law and do not respect conventions, Tony rAbbott can never become Prime Minister.

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    Adam Smith

    [That is okay then. If we stick to the letter of the law and do not respect conventions, Tony rAbbott can never become Prime Minister.]
    Well, no one could be Prime Minister, because the office isn’t mentioned in the Constitution.

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    P. Dragone

    Adam, LOL

    Well, no one could be Prime Minister, because the office isn’t mentioned in the Constitution.

    Exactly, so what is Tony getting all fussed about, enough to get on a horse he can’t ride to bounce up and down on the poor thing’s back just for a five second news grab. He could have saved them both a ton of pain.

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    Wow I watch the footy then have a little nap before work and come back to find lots of people dancing around in circles on this thread. Good to see so many have so much leisure time to make POSITIVE CONTRIBUTIONS.

    Here is a reminder…

    # The convoy will go ahead
    # Hundreds of truckies and other motorists will converge on Canberra
    # The media will love it. It’ll be a great visual.
    # Many interviews will take place, many will be asked about their grievences
    # Pollies will keep an eye on the unfolding event and what effect it has on the general populace
    # What the upshot of all this will be nobody knows
    # One thing is certain, the only people nervous about this convoy are Labor

    So, comment away. Try to distrupt one thread on one blog as much as you like, NOTHING will change the above.

    Once again, so glad to see so many people with so much leisure time to waste posting pointless comments on a blog. Thnx for the entertainment.

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    Adam Smith

    # One thing is certain, the only people nervous about this convoy are Labor

    I doubt it, they’re too busy governing, including preparing to pass the ETS bills.

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    imacca

    [Snip. Your writing needs to be something you can justify and explain. IF you are only interested in namecalling and not discussing policy or science, then there are plenty of trash sites to take your delusions too. When [people you appear to agree with] turn up anonymously throwing lies, you don’t have a right to complain if people call [them] colourful insults in return. And if I take 8 hours to moderate your posts, hey, ask for a refund. — JN]

    I’ve edited this to clarify. See my comment below. #400ish.

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    Adam Smith: #312
    July 31st, 2011 at 8:47 pm

    I doubt it, they’re too busy governing,

    Ahahaha haha hahaha oh pls stop hahahaha hahaha the tears hahahah hahahah my ribs are killing me hahahahha hahahhha
    Must get ready for work now, thankyou, that was the funniest line I’ve read since Speedies piece

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    fredn

    It will be interesting to see how many people have to much time and money on their hands.

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    Projectenfour

    The Convoy discussion seems to have been sidetracked.
    May I suggest a motivational song for those driving to Canberra:
    Bruce Springsteen’s “No Surrender”

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    Adam Smith

    May I suggest a motivational song for those driving to Canberra:
    Bruce Springsteen’s “No Surrender”

    Yeah that’s a good song. Of course Bruce Springsteen is a left wing Democrat.

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    Projectenfour

    The Convoy discussion seems to have been sidetracked.
    May I suggest a motivational song for those driving to Canberra:
    Bruce Springsteen’s No Surrender

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    Projectenfour

    [ 316Adam Smith]

    His politics don’t matter … it’s the words that count:
    ‘No retreat, No Surrender’
    It’s also good driving music.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnuQ9jdqSB8

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 302

    What? The Queen (Fra Battenberg) is the Head of State, the Government is the Ministers, led by the Prime Minister.

    Wrong, cretin, try reading the constitution. There is no “head of state”. The government of Australia is “Queen Victoria and her heirs and successors”.

    I’m astonished that people would want to defend Gaddafi.

    Ever been to Libya Adam and studied their political system? Or are you simply spouting from a cheat sheet ultimately prepared by Goldman Sachs?

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 308

    “I don’t understand what your point is. The constitution doesn’t mention the Prime Minister at all, so does that mean we shouldn’t have a Prime Minister?”

    YES !!! – THAT is how the Australian constitution envisaged it. No political parties, just “representatives” of the people’s WILL.

    Go and read the bloody document in its original 1901 form.

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    memoryvault

    Kerry @ 310

    don’t fret.

    I rather like the way our conventions have evolved.
    We don’t tug a forelock, but we respect convention.

    Kerry, the constitution is the “rule book” if you like.

    Imagine if we tried to play football (any code) where one side had to play strictly according to the rules, and the other side could ignore them at will.

    THAT is Australian politics today. The politicians ignore the rules and substitute their “conventions” while we, the people, have to abide by the letter of the law.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 318

    I doubt it, they’re too busy governing, including preparing to pass the ETS bills.

    Actually I thought they were getting ready to sing gushing praises and heap accolades on a book about a woman who went off to get her hair done and then off to dinner with her friends, while 173 Aussies burned on her watch as Victoria’s head of Emergency Control.

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    CameronH

    Memoryvault @ 331, I like to think of the constitutions, both state and federal, as the set of rules that protects the citizens from the government and the Governors and the Governor General are supposed to uphold the constitution and hold the government to account on behalf of the people. The fact that the government now feels that it can ignore the constitution and the Governors all apparently feel that they are now just there to prance around at the expense of the taxpayer with out accepting any responsibility has now brought us to the edge of destruction.

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    memoryvault

    CameronH @ 333

    Congratulations – you have just displayed a better understanding of the situation than any “constitutional lawyer” in Australia today.

    The organisers of this Convoy have a chance to redress that situation. The question is, will they do it?

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    Jovial, you still haven’t apologized for the ad hom attacks, though your posts have improved. Nice try to sneak around moderation, but I’m still waiting. I’m not paid, I cite scientific papers. You can’t turn up anonymously throwing insults, effectively calling me a liar about my income or my reasons for doing what I do, and expect to stay a guest at this house.

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    Mark D.

    Adam Smith @ 266:

    I don’t think you fully understand. Lets revisit the subject some other time. As Memory Vault said:

    NOT our problem and we don’t especially care – we have enough idiot politicians and idiot policies to deal with locally, thank you.

    And I agree with him you DO have enough idiot politicians.

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    Kerry, thanks for the link to the political death threat. I was referring to climate scientists, not politicians, who I understand sadly receive threats on a daily basis from all around. I deplore death threats, but am very tired of seeing skeptics slurred for making death threats that don’t exist.

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    memoryvault

    May I take this lull in the battle to sincerely congratulate Jo and the organisers of the Convoy.

    Only once before have I witnessed such a concerted, prolonged and vitriolic attack by the cultists on a blog, and that was against James Delingpole immediately after the revelations of Climategate.

    To the best of my knowledge there has never been such a concerted and prolonged attack on any OZ blogsite, on any subject, ever.

    And not just a random attack by anybody. No, we have had the pleasure of a concerted attack and the undivided attention for nearly 60 hours by some of the heavyweights in the cultist movement.

    Notice if you will that we have not a peep from Blimey, or John Brookes or any of the lightweight regulars, with the exception of MattB

    Matt, of course, made his last comment early Friday evening when he realised he was waaaaay out of his depth. That’s when all the heavyweights stepped in, and it is pretty reasonable to assume it was MattB who whistled for help.

    Which all goes to prove that you have well and truly tapped into a raw nerve and the enemy is well and truly riled.

    In all this concerted attack, the only points the cultists have been able to score have been as a result of Abott and the Coalition’s “climate change policy”.

    The sooner the opposition accepts this policy is toxic to them and their chances of election, the better off we will all be. Stress that to your conservative members of parliament if you are writing or talking to them.

    And PLEASE go back and carefully read my comments at 191 and 192. I have the advantage of speaking from experience.

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    Deb One

    It is just unrealistic to imagine that the GG will dissolve Parliament simply by a call from a meeting in Canberra or by the arrival of a convoy of trucks

    She will follow the Constitution as she is required to do.
    She dissolves the parliament ONLY on the advice of her PM

    She is NOT Sir John Kerr and it’s unrealistic and silly to think otherwise,and much of what is said about the convoy on this site is just a waste of time
    Some on this site don’t live in the real world
    Today the PM won the praise of Cameron the UK PM re the Carbon Tax
    …how about that ?

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    Ben

    [So Nigel @ 127 doesn’t support any political party, he just spouts the lies and talking points of the opposition. Cute.

    [snip response to snipped comment]
    ]
    I seem to detect the scissors exhibiting a certain bias here.

    My response to a ‘snipped comment’ is snipped and then the same comment I quoted and which got snipped is repeated again at 183 and still remains un-snipped.

    [Reply: Ben, you are trying to spin a death threat out of nothing. I thought I'd deleted all marginal borderline refs to guns. I'm leaving that #183 there now though. Thanks to Nigel for explaining exactly why it wasn't a call for violence. But that is absolutely the end of this waste of time discussion. You are at risk of boring us to death. JN]

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    Adam Smith

    Wrong, cretin, try reading the constitution. There is no “head of state”. The government of Australia is “Queen Victoria and her heirs and successors”.

    Um, excuse me. We can disagree about things without reverting to abuse!

    At any rate, you are completely wrong.

    Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade official protocol page:

    Australia’s Head of State is the Queen of Australia, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II…

    http://www.dfat.gov.au/protocol/Protocol_Guidelines/15.html

    Ever been to Libya Adam and studied their political system? Or are you simply spouting from a cheat sheet ultimately prepared by Goldman Sachs?

    Um, well I know they have had the same leader for 40 odd years! That should tell you something about their political system!

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    memoryvault

    Oh look – Ben’s back.

    It’s all so predictable – they work in shifts.

    Ben, the “night shift” last heard from at 5.20pm Friday night, is back on duty again.

    Undoubtedly Ben has read through the 170 or so posts that have been made since he last appeared to bring himself up to speed.

    Shall we test him children?

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    Ben

    P. Dragone @ 141 said:
    [Let me remind everyone of the beautiful set of numbers:
    Australia:

    1. Unemployment 4.9%
    2. Inflation 3.6%
    3. Public Net Debts 7% GDP
    4. RBA Interest rate 4.75%
    5. Growth rate 3.3%
    6. AUD Vs USD 1.0703
    7. Trade Surplus – $2.23B May 2011
    8. “ALP best manager of money, history shows” – Mega
    9. Australian families depending on one breadwinner pay among the lowest amounts of tax in the world and have become better off under the Gillard Government – Natsem
    10. Investment in the next year in mining and related infra-structure projects $140B
    11. Labor’s Tax take 21.75% of GDP Vs 25% under Liberals
    12. No interest rise for the 8th consecutive month Vs 10 consecutive rises under Howard/Costello. It is now expected no rises in the future with a prospect of interest rate cuts.
    13. The number of people filling for bankruptcy in Australia has fallen by 16%.
    14. Australia safe from debt crisis: OECD – http://afr.com/p/national/economy/australia_safe_from_debt_crisis_rgznLP6HTyYo7nGragUwyI #auspol

    Print it if you dare!]

    To which our totally objective moderator said:

    [Yes, it took a century to get to this position, but could be ruined in a few short years. Billions wasted trying to change the weather, pink batt programs that killed people, government offices paying $800k for dozens of covered tin sheds without walls... and the list goes on. JN]

    Well to return from the moderators parallel universe and inject some facts:
    1. Interest rates are now significantly lower than when the Howard Govt was tossed out.
    2. Net public debt is lower than almost any other developed country despite stimulus to fight off a recession.
    3. $A is at a record high against the $US and this has come about since the Howard Govt departed.
    4. Tax take under this govt is lower than under the Liberals as quoted above, 21.5% vs 25%
    etc.
    So the present situation is reflective of good economic management by the present govt as is widely recognised by credible economists here and overseas.

    The reference to ‘Pink Batts’ is plain BS as is clearly shown in both the Hawke Report and the CSIRO report. In fact during that program the rate of insulation related fires DROPPED. The only deaths were due to failure of employers to observe OH&S legislation.

    The BER was an outstanding success as documented in the Orgill report. 97% of projects received no complaint and not all complaints had any validity. And it was a program undertaken in haste as part of the stimulus package so one might expect some higher rate of issues to arise.

    Mere assertions are not facts. The reviews mentioned document the facts.

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    Adam Smith

    Kerry, the constitution is the “rule book” if you like.

    Sorry, but this is a pretty silly way to think about the Australian constitution because much of our political system is based on conventions. The Constitution doesn’t mention the Prime Minister once for example! And it is purely a convention that the Governor General acts on the advice of ministers, but it is simply assumed to be the case because the parliament is elected democratically, while the G.G. isn’t.

    THAT is Australian politics today. The politicians ignore the rules and substitute their “conventions” while we, the people, have to abide by the letter of the law.

    I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to. The politicians DO abide by the law and the constitution. If you think the government has done something that is unconstitutional, you can sue them in the High Court.

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    memoryvault

    Ahh – and now, after a rest, and fortified by the presence of Ben, Adam Smith rejoins the fray.

    If you people only knew how transparent you are.

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    Adam Smith

    Ahh – and now, after a rest, and fortified by the presence of Ben, Adam Smith rejoins the fray.

    If you people only knew how transparent you are.

    Rather than running a commentary on when we post, why not engage with our posts?

    That is one of the benefits of living in a free and open democratic society, people can engage with each other in a civil way, even if they disagree with each other.

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    memoryvault

    And now Ben offers his “beautiful set of numbers” (for the third time, being bereft of anything else to post). It’s alright Ben, tonight we’ll ignore your “beautiful numbers” since this is a discussion about a convoy.

    Some other time we’ll go into just how “cooked” government statistics can be. As the author of the best-selling book “Dole Bludging – A Taxpayers Guide”, I’m an expert on how the government cooks the books.

    For the moment try and stick with the subject at hand.

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    MattB

    “Matt, of course, made his last comment early Friday evening when he realised he was waaaaay out of his depth. That’s when all the heavyweights stepped in, and it is pretty reasonable to assume it was MattB who whistled for help.”

    You are too funny MV… seriously paranoid. I assure you I don;t know any of these crew… although Jo’s Oz piece did feature on Deltoid could have got some passing traffic.

    Also “a concerted, prolonged and vitriolic attack by the cultists on a blog” hardly sums up a few posts on a quiet weekend. But you can dream away MV.

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    MattB

    “Matt, of course, made his last comment early Friday evening when he realised he was waaaaay out of his depth.”

    Oh you do make me larf sometimes MV. IT’S THE WEEKEND…. I only post when I’m avoiding my kids, which is far less frequent than avoiding work mon-fri.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 335

    Let me see if I have you right:

    Sorry, but this is a pretty silly way to think about the Australian constitution because much of our political system is based on conventions.

    But then you say:

    I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to. The politicians DO abide by the law and the constitution.

    So, Adam, are you saying the politicians abide by the “conventions” or by the “constitution”? You can’t have it both ways.

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    Adam Smith

    Some other time we’ll go into just how “cooked” government statistics can be.

    Well they are the same stats that the Treasury and Reserve Bank rely on, so if you think all the stats are wrong, then you are basically asserting that all the economic departments of the government are in some kind of conspiracy.

    Even if you hate all politicians, it is kind of ridiculous to assert (without presenting any evidence) that ALL public servants are in on some kind of conspiracy too.

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    Adam Smith

    So, Adam, are you saying the politicians abide by the “conventions” or by the “constitution”? You can’t have it both ways.

    Both! Unless you can say explicitly which part of the constitution the current government is breaching, then it is pretty hard for me to describe how you are wrong.

    Let me give you an example. There is nothing to say that the Prime Minister couldn’t be a Senator, but all Prime Ministers are always a member of the House of Reps*

    *Gorton was a Senator when he became PM, but he resigned his Senate seat and won a House seat.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 337

    Rather than running a commentary on when we post, why not engage with our posts?

    That is one of the benefits of living in a free and open democratic society, people can engage with each other in a civil way, even if they disagree with each other.

    Oh, and exactly how, in a “free and open democratic society” does one engage “in a civil way” with people who want to subject me to a Nuremberg-style trial for my crimes against humanity, tattoo me so others can recognise for what I am, load me on a death train, and send me off to be gassed as a final solution to the problem of deniers?

    So, what would you like to discuss “civilly” Adam? I did ask you earlier where you thought we should be tattooed – forehead or forearm – but you never answered.

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    Sceptical Sam

    Baa Humbug @ 312

    As the WWII saying goes: “if you’re getting flak, you’re on target”.

    This thread and the Convoy are obviously both right on target.

    As memoryvault notes they’re even sending in dummies to try and deflect attention.

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    Adam Smith

    Oh, and exactly how, in a “free and open democratic society” does one engage “in a civil way”

    Well you could start by not calling people “cretin” (as you did in post 321) simply because they happen to disagree with you.

    want to subject me to a Nuremberg-style trial for my crimes against humanity, tattoo me so others can recognise for what I am, load me on a death train, and send me off to be gassed as a final solution to the problem of deniers?

    Well I haven’t said I would do any of these things to you, but that didn’t stop you from calling me a “cretin”.

    So, what would you like to discuss “civilly” Adam? I did ask you earlier where you thought we should be tattooed – forehead or forearm – but you never answered.

    Excuse me? I have never said you should be tattooed.

    It is pretty bad form to simply put words into other people’s mouths.

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    Adam Smith

    As memoryvault notes they’re even sending in dummies to try and deflect attention.

    Who’s the “they” in the “they’re”?

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 346

    Excuse me? I have never said you should be tattooed.

    It is pretty bad form to simply put words into other people’s mouths.

    No, but you cannot deny that people on “your” side of the debate have suggested – in fact DEMANDED” these things, and worse, for us “unbelievers”. And yet while you decry that you shouldn’t be considered the same as them, you have spent the entire day trying to paint everybody here as supporters of Abbott and his idiot “climate change” policy.

    Sorry Adam, but it cuts both ways. If I am to be considered a “supporter” of Abbott and his idiot policies simply because I oppose JuLIAR and hers, then you, by default, are a supporter of every Psychopath who has ever expressed a desire to harm and/or kill us “deniers”.

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    Adam Smith

    No, but you cannot deny that people on “your” side of the debate have suggested – in fact DEMANDED”

    Sorry, but ‘guilt by association’ is a ridiculous way to debate any issue because it means everyone’s position is judged based on the worst person that agrees with it, rather than its merits.

    I have never advocated tattooing anyone because of their views.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 349

    Sorry, but ‘guilt by association’ is a ridiculous way to debate any issue because it means everyone’s position is judged based on the worst person that agrees with it, rather than its merits.

    This from a man who has spent the last twenty-four hours trying to label everybody here with Tony Abbott’s failings.

    Can you even lie straight in bed, Adam?

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    MattB

    “No, but you cannot deny that people on “your” side of the debate have suggested – in fact DEMANDED” these things, and worse, for us “unbelievers”. ”

    this is in contrast to you, MV, who has explicitly stated that you look forward to watching the punishment metered out to warmists, while you knit no less.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith

    And you STILL haven’t answered the question Adam – where should us “unbelievers” be tattooed?

    Doesn’t matter if you personally don’t believe in it – YOUR SIDE DOES.

    So you might as well have a bit of input into where it will be done.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith

    What’s the matter Adam?

    Awaiting instructions from Brownshirt Bob? Forget it – he’s too busy now fighting off a leadership challenge from Milne the Merciless.

    What the hell – I’m going to bed – you bank puppets are not worth the effort.

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    david

    “301
    Steve Schapel:

    Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

    It is very curious that you chose 1930 as the date for the beginning of the current warming trend. I think most commentators would put it much earlier than that. But anyway, that’s fine. Funny thing, with the generally accepted figures, there was a steady increase in atmospheric temperatures from about 1910 to about 1940. In fact, this increase was more rapid than any increase since then. So your 1930 falls within that time period.

    Now, here’s the extremely curious problem about all that, David. The increase in CO2 concentration was not appreciable until about 1950. Are you with me? I am trying to relate this to your explanation of temperature increase, as being caused by CO2 increase, you see. So, we have the very rapid temperature increase from 1910 to 1940, and the CO2 increase from 1950. What? I would be most interested in your comments about how this adds up.”

    The record shows temperatures fell in the period from the 1880′s through to about 1910. Over the next 20 years they cycled back to the mean recorded for the late 1800′s. That is, the temperatures in the 1930′s were similar to those recorded up to the 1880′s. Through the 1930′s and 40′s they cycled up and down again, returning to around their 1930 levels. From the 1950′s, temperatures have cycled progressively higher, so that they are now around 0.7 degrees warmer than they were in the late 1800′s, the 1930′s and 1950′s.
    There has been about 0.5 degrees of warming in the last 60 years.

    In the period since the 1930′s there has been no decade in which temperatures have cycled back to the mean that applied prior to this time. So temperatures are now significantly more elevated than they were, and most of the increase occurred during the period since 1950. (This information is clearly charted on the first-mentioned site quoted by you.)

    At first blush, this seems to run in synch with your remarks about the rate of CO2 emissions.

    Thanks for the reference.

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    Bobc

    memoryvault:
    August 1st, 2011 at 12:47 am

    What’s the matter Adam?

    Awaiting instructions from Brownshirt Bob? Forget it – he’s too busy now fighting off a leadership challenge from Milne the Merciless.

    What the hell – I’m going to bed – you bank puppets are not worth the effort.

    “Adam Smith” just went off-duty — “David” has taken over.
    David wants to get a “discussion” of AGW “science” started. Problematically, the only arguments David can make are “arguments from authority” and “blatant assertion”. Only the newbies here (who all seem to be warmists, today) will be swayed by arguments that have been thoroughly debunked multiple times already on this blog (you know — the 99.99% of it that you are entirely ignorant of).

    Also, David has apparently failed to notice that this thread is about a Convoy.

    Suggestion, David: Read some of the background material on this blog (like this for instance) and see if you can come up with a logical argument against any of the points that doesn’t simply involve invoking authority.

    Experts have tried and failed, so we don’t expect much (if anything) from you, but it might keep you busy for the rest of your shift.

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    Everyone who’s used the term denier is in moderation until they apologize and convince me they will not resort to baseless namecalling. (Since none of them can point to any scientific paper we deny). It’s bad English, and bad manners.

    Jovial-whoeveryouare: No, quoting wiki to support a character attack is still a character attack. It matters not who pays me. As it happens, I am not employed or contracted to anyone. I serve no master but myself. Good people tip the tip jar. (I say thanks to them). Even if an oil sheik paid me it would make no difference to my scientific arguments. I am just a messenger. I’m not doing the research. I hold no original data.

    It has cost me thousands to help the cause of good science and real democracy.

    If you don’t understand how debased an ad hom is, especially using a dehumanizing meaningless label, you don’t deserve to comment here.

    Due to the amount of time poor quality commenters take, both of mine, and my volunteer moderators, we don’t have time to find the useful remarks among the people who cannot edit their own comments, or apologize for substandard ones, and lift their standards. You’ve had your chance. The longer you take hedging around an honest polite reply the harder it gets for you to convince me you are here for genuine polite conversation. Anonymous trolls get no respect.

    One things for sure though. We all know now just how powerful this convoy is going to be. They are terrified.

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    Roy Hogue

    Checked my email this morning and an unprecedented 177 new-post messages from JoNova rolled in, all since I shut down the computer yesterday evening.

    Judging by the number and what I read you have them squirming around like they were in a vise. Funny thing how a little action gets attention where words alone get ignored.

    One question though: I’ve seen pictures of those big rigs you drive around Australia’s highways. They put anything here to shame and I wonder — how in the world will you get them through city streets in Canberra? ;-)

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    Steve Schapel

    BobC (#355)…

    Well, if discussions of science are off-topic in this thread, then I should take some responsibility here for David’s comments, since I have been encouraging a conversation with him on these matters. I did this because I thought he was genuinely interested to learn. I now see that he has failed to grasp even the most basic logic, so I guess that’s the end of that.

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    P. Dragone

    One things for sure though. We all know now just how powerful this convoy is going to be. They are terrified.

    rofl

    We are supposed to be scared of a convoy, how amusing.

    Save your money guys and gals, it is just a Liberal Party/big industry stunt and they are using you mugs to pay for it.

    But if you want to do it, go ahead, a line of trucks is always interesting.

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    MaryFJohnston

    Re 358

    On the other thread “Ferdinand Engelbeen” seems to lack scientific “depth”. May be friends.

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    P. Dragone

    From what I have seen on this board, there is a strong manifestation of confirmation bias in the ant-AGW supporters here. It would be nearly impossible for any AGW idea, scientifically-backed or not, to be considered fairly because the information would be rejected by the psychological processes of the recipient, who will only seek out information which fits the ideas they already hold. Training in the sciences, and checks and balances in research, includes strategies for dealing with confirmation bias.

    This is the reason why, I believe, it is okay on this blog to call people who support the theory of AGW ‘warmists’ or ‘cultists’ or equate them with Nazis who want to tattoo people and send them on death-trains, but it is forbidden to call people who reject AGW the ‘d’ word. The former terms are acceptable, the latter not, and the banning of the latter biases the board towards AGW rejection.

    There is also sociological phenomena at work. When faced with a distant yet overwhelming threat, many members of a group or
    community will cling with greater fervour to the known and retreat to routine, until the threat is imminent. That is when panic takes over.

    I find many of the views expressed on this board to be an interesting display of both phenomena.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/confirmation_bias.htm

    [In English, the word denier, means to deny something. In science, the only thing that counts is empirical evidence. You can provide no evidence we deny, therefore the term is 100% wrong. There is no connection between the other terms you name and Nazi's, but it's bleeding obvious there is an association with denier and Nazi;s. We can justify every term we use. You can't. Start speaking english, and stop trying to label us something we are not.See my comment below.. -- JN]

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    Steve Schapel

    Mary (#360)…

    With all due respect, Mary, I do not consider Ferdinand and David are in the same category. So far, I suggest that Ferdinand is making a hugely valuable contribution to the discussion, and I think it would really be worthwhile for sceptics, including you and me, to be open to understanding what he is trying to tell us.

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    Political Animal

    Yup, “warmist” is OK, “d______” is not.

    [REPLY: Some people argue the world will get warmer! and it's alarming!. But we don't deny anything. Denier is 100% wrong, and an Orwellian dehumanising label. People need to use words that have some meaning. JN]

    A few people, truckies are going to lose significant income and pay humungous petrol bills and for what exactly? 15 seconds on TV?

    [REPLY: Exactly, the producing class are desperate, angry, and ready to take action, and those who want big-government are very scared they might get 15 devastating seconds...]

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    Siliggy

    Went away from my PC out in the bush where even my phone will not work for a few days and come back to this! Instant tears of Joy. Been busy since posting about it in other places. This convoy and the way it is growing is great news.
    Might ring a few radio stations and request the song.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw0JOgMdKSU
    l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| jj_\__
    |Eleven convoys from all over Australia!|-|”"”["];.__.
    |+___+___+___+___+| l+___+___+___+l/|__|_]lllll]|<
    [l(@)’(@)””"”"”"”"”"l(@)l–(@)l “”"”"”"”"”"(@)’(@)”"”"”"(@)”l

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    Cate S

    Good morning Jo and fellow commentators!
    Well – i must admit could not believe the amount of emails from this site alone! :)
    Yes sir – we have convoys coming, people with hope, numerous phone calls, media asking to join in and put vehicles in the convoys – oh yes – this is history in progress, make no mistake!
    In regard to some thoughts on the big rigs – they will probably choose to go “bob tail: (- no trailers) for quite a few.
    Hey – i had the census people call in yesterday…are you ready…they are joining the Convoys!
    Have a great day all – cause i sure am! Power to grass roots people :)

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    Adam Smith

    rofl

    We are supposed to be scared of a convoy, how amusing.

    I quite like it when some people volunteer to pay extra tax, because it means I get to pay less.

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    Paul R

    Roy Hogue:
    August 1st, 2011 at 2:13 am

    One question though: I’ve seen pictures of those big rigs you drive around Australia’s highways. They put anything here to shame and I wonder — how in the world will you get them through city streets in Canberra?

    Some of these large semi trailers have very powerful engines and air horns.

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    P. Dragone

    Adam Smith@ 366
    I agree, by running these rigs around the country then they are paying more taxes, stimulating the economy, creating employment and increasing GDP. That can only be good for the Prime Minister Julia Gillard and the ALP government.

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    Lloyd

    The fact that unemployment in australia is still under 5% and the envy of the rest of the world somewhat [snip... suggests "you" people are wrong....]

    [REPLY: No, the people who created that wealth, and helped us survive the GFC are the ones protesting. --JN]

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    BobC

    P. Dragone (@361):
    August 1st, 2011 at 7:20 am

    There is also sociological phenomena at work. When faced with a distant yet overwhelming threat, many members of a group or community will cling with greater fervour to the known and retreat to routine, until the threat is imminent. That is when panic takes over.

    That’s not a bad description of the behavior we have seen a lot of lately among the proponents of CAGW. In their case, the imminent threat is the collapse of their ability to influence people with their fact-free dire warnings of disaster — designed to concentrate political power among their allies.

    From the way the trolls have been bombing this thread, you might conclude that they see the convoy as an “imminent threat”.

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    MaryFJohnston

    Hi Steve Schapel:

    I don’t know what to make of Ferdinand but there is one bit of the science that he won’t let go of and it is important that people here don’t just swallow what he is saying because he comes over as Mr Nice guy.

    He spins real science with dodgy stuff that most people wouldn’t notice, sowing seeds of doubt.

    Like all warmers he tries to isolate human made CO2 and focus exclusively on this.

    This is wrong in so many ways.

    The graphs he referred us to on the other thread are dodgy, especially the one dealing with human CO2 only.

    My comments are on the other thread.

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    BobC

    Steve Schapel:
    August 1st, 2011 at 5:36 am
    BobC (#355)…

    Well, if discussions of science are off-topic in this thread, then I should take some responsibility here for David’s comments, since I have been encouraging a conversation with him on these matters.

    I wouldn’t say actual discussions of science are ever off-topic (I’d better not, given my history here!). I was just pointing out that David is a one-trick-pony and trying to encourage him to A) Stick to a subject (the convoy) where he might not sound like a mindless robot, or B) Try to actually construct a logical argument about the science for once.

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    Maxine

    Looks like the US is going to join Ireland and Greece goinbg down the toilet. Cut expenditure = cut jobs = less tax = cut more expenditure and so the economy goes down the gurgler.

    Only Iceland has shown any sense, not going to pay for losses to investors in its banks. Oh, and here of course, a brilliant stimulus meaning we saw one tiny blip of negative GDP and that’s it for the GFC 2008!

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  • #

    In English, the word denier, means to deny something. In science, the only thing that counts is empirical evidence. You can provide no evidence we deny, therefore the term is 100% wrong.

    There is no connection between the terms “warmist” and “cultist” and Nazi’s, but it’s bleeding obvious there is an association with denier and Nazi;s.

    We can justify every term we use. You can’t. Start speaking english, and stop trying to label us something we are not.

    Confirmation bias, applies equally so to AGW fans, but since they don’t start with empirical evidence, they are off with the fairies from the beginning.

    And since I used to be an AGW believer, that rather blows away your confirmation bias theory eh?

    Dragone, you are struggling with English. Find a dictionary.

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    Maxine

    Looks like SA had it warmest July on record. Melbourne had 20°C weather on the last day of July—another record.

    No, no, don’t have to worry about AGW!

    OK, I am conflating weather and climate but even when England was having its coldest winter last winter the NHemis overall had its warmest winter. In England spring now arrives 11 days earlier than it used to, the wine grape industry there is recording progressively better and better harvests. And Arctic ice continues to shrink in extent and volume. Just as well that is all coincidences and not AGW eh?

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    Cate S

    There are a few of these popping up on this thread…but the Convoys are growing…regardless of the trolls size :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAyh23l1mx4

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    Kerry

    Joanne Nova:
    July 31st, 2011 at 10:39 pm
    Kerry, thanks for the link to the political death threat. I was referring to climate scientists, not politicians, who I understand sadly receive threats on a daily basis from all around. I deplore death threats, but am very tired of seeing skeptics slurred for making death threats that don’t exist.

    Hi Joanne

    here’s a couple of links re death threats to scientists from June 20, 2011.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/scientists-are-receiving-death-threats-over-their-stance-on-climate-change-and-carbon-tax-policy/story-fn59niix-1226078505195
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-20/scientists-hit-back-amid-fresh-death-threats/2764356

    The Australian link is detailed enough to show that it is a death threat.

    So, it looks like the death threats to climate scientists do exist.

    I’d go further than you though;
    Until it is ascertained who is actually making these threats then it is not only tiresome but grossly unfair that skeptics are being branded as making them.

    Cheers

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    Ian Hill

    The weather for Adelaide in July was a bit bizarre, two lovely days of over 20C on the 1st and 31st bookending a miserable three weeks of bitterly cold days in between, including the coldest week ever of 8 consecutive days below 14C.

    I remember the hottest July day on record for Adelaide very well. It was on 29 July 1975 when it reached 80 degrees Farenheit (about 26C). There were four consecutive days above 75F. All the talk then was of an impending Ice Age. Just goes to show, none of this proves much.

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    Kerry

    Maxine @ 376

    In England spring now arrives 11 days earlier than it used to

    Do you think the earlier-than-usual seasonal changes have anything to do with the effect the recent earthquakes have had on the earth’s axis?
    For instance, the Asian tsunami in 2004 was caused by an earthquake that shifted the earth’s axis by 3 inches. Ditto the Chilean earthquake of 2010.
    The Japanese earthquake shifted the earth’s axis by 4 inches.

    See http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-13/india/28685416_1_160-km-wide-andaman-islands-nicobar

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    MattB

    de·ny   /dɪˈnaɪ/ Show Spelled
    [dih-nahy] Show IPA

    –verb (used with object), -nied, -ny·ing.
    1. to state that (something declared or believed to be true) is not true:

    denier 2 (dɪˈnaɪə)

    — n
    a person who denies

    So what’s so offensive about it’s use here?

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    MattB

    “In English, the word denier, means to deny something. In science, the only thing that counts is empirical evidence. You can provide no evidence we deny, therefore the term is 100% wrong.”

    Of course I can find evidence you deny. This whole blog denies that AGW is a concern, and it denies that the consensus science is robust. There is nothing malicious, it is just the way it is.

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    Steve Schapel

    Maxine (#376)…

    This is the third time lately that somebody has made these kinds of references here. Honestly, I don’t know where this stuff comes from. It’s all very interesting, Maxine, but – it’s got nothing to do with the price of eggs.

    Yes, the weather/climate is variable, and sometimes exceptional. Yes, there has been an overall warming trend globally over the last century. NOBODY IS ARGUING ABOUT THAT! I have been involved in this debate for many years now, and IT HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT THAT. So let’s just leave that aside.

    Here are some of the questions:
    1. Are those changes a good or a bad thing?
    2. Are those changes likely to continue in the same direction?
    3. Is anthropogenic CO2 primarily the cause of these changes?
    4. Is it desirable to try and do anything about it?
    5. If so, what, how, and who pays?
    … etc.

    As you are probably aware, there are many more very serious questions that need to be discussed. If you have any thoughts on any of them, I would be pleased to see them. But PLEASE, don’t continue with this inane line that the fact that climate is changing is a big deal. It’s not.

    Oh, and are you being sneaky by popping the “A” into “AGW”, with nothing to back it up. The leap from GW to AGW is actually huge!

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    DJ

    I love it, in fact, I’ll be there. But why stop at calling for an election! Does anyone actually believe that Abbot and the Liberals will do any better a job? We need complete reform. Disband all the political puppet parties – their agenda is the same and choice is an illusion.

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    Mark D.

    MattB @ 381 and 381; so apparently you deny that choice of a particular word or phrase can result in or is intended for a propaganda gain?

    “What is the problem?”

    YOU!

    and all your troll brothers and sisters……….

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    Kerry

    MattB @ 381

    So what’s so offensive about it’s use here?

    Because of the obvious connotations with the revisionists who claim the genocide of Jews didn’t happen during WWII.
    Just like a lot of people were upset with John Howard’s Pacific Solution because it seemed to draw parallels with the Final Solution i.e. the Holocaust

    Anyway, this is Joanne Nova’s blog and she has every right to make the rules.
    If you don’t like them, don’t come along.
    It does nothing for the debate to continue to harp on a word that is obviously offensive to some.

    Cheers

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    MattB

    Kerry my personal opinion is that the existence of Holocaust Denial does not render use of the word denial in any other context offensive. Is there another word in the language that means the same as deny? If there is I’ll gladly use it.

    When mum says “Matt do you deny taking the last chocolate biscuit?” I’ll not try the old “Oh jeez mum don’t compare taking the last biscuit to the holocaust – I’m offended!”.

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    MattB

    “Anyway, this is Joanne Nova’s blog and she has every right to make the rules.
    If you don’t like them, don’t come along.”

    I don’t use the word on this blog for that reason, but if it comes up in discussion I can’t help but point out it is a bit precious.

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    Maxine

    Steve, the info comes from the UK Met Office. Not a blog like where you get your misinformation from.

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    Maxine

    And Steve, the IPCC reports and some commonsense says, yeah if we keep emitting CO2 (etc) which is a greenhouse gas we are going to get a greenhouse effect.

    Sometimes a volcanic eruption or La Nina can reduce average temperatures for a while or a El Nino boosts them (1998, 2010.)

    With a El Nino or otherwise spike in maximum temperatures old people die, about 20K died in the US heatwave. In 2010 in Vic and SA about 800 old people died due to extreme heat.

    In my garden I put a double layer of birdnetting over my fruit trees, partly to keep the damn birds off my fruit but also to reduce the sunlight and heat hitting the fruit by 15%. Works too. How long before I need 25% shadecloth? How soon before even you recognise there is a problem?

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    Steve Schapel

    Maxine (#388)…

    Good grief! I used to be regarded as a good communicator, but I am obviously losing my touch. My apologies, Maxine, I have failed to convey my meaning to you.

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    Maxine

    No, Steve, the changes are not a good thing. We don’t want it to keep on happening at an ever-accelerating rate as trip points are passed. There is no evidence that the trend will reverse.

    AGW means SW but also Southern Australia is drying out. Perth dams will be at zero% this summer. Jun SA rainfall was generally below average.

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    Maxine

    Renewable energy is OK but I would love to see some nice big nuke plants along the south coast. A thorium reactor, Gen4 is safe and we have plenty of thorium and uranium.

    A solar thermal power station is going to need to be 20Km by 20Km and located in a northern desert for max efficiency.

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    memoryvault

    Maxine @ various

    Maxine I’m not going to ask what you’re growing under that shade cloth, but please stop smoking it when you’re posting here.

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    Maxine

    Drop dead MV

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    memoryvault

    Maxine @ 389

    about 20K died in the US heatwave.

    Highest number of deaths in a US heatwave – 12,000 in 1926
    Number of deaths attributable to current heatwave – 22.


    In 2010 in Vic and SA about 800 old people died due to extreme heat.

    Highest number of deaths attributable to heatwave in VIC – 438 – summer of 1938-39.
    Highest number of deaths attributable to heatwave in SA – 437 – summer of 1895-96.

    .

    Google is my friend – should I go on?

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    MaryFJohnston

    Dear Mr Vault,

    You are my hero.

    We really need to worry about green banksters before we get too concerned about the climate being disturbed by CO2.

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    memoryvault

    Maxine @ 395

    Drop dead MV

    Tried my hardest to oblige August last year, but according to the nice people in Royal Perth Hospital Intensive Care Unit, apparently I’m damn near-indestructible.

    Sorry about that.

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    MattB

    “Highest number of deaths attributable to heatwave in VIC – 438 – summer of 1938-39.
    Highest number of deaths attributable to heatwave in SA – 437 – summer of 1895-96.
    Google is my friend – should I go on?”

    MV if the max combined is 870… why does that conflict with Maxine’s claim that 800 died more recently?

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    memoryvault

    MaryFJohnston @ 397

    We really need to worry about green banksters before we get too concerned about the climate being disturbed by CO2.

    Spot-on.

    Quite apart from crooked green banksters (why does the name Turnbull keep popping into my head) there’s quite a few things I’ll worry about before I get too hung up CO2.

    Like being struck by lightning.
    Or being abducted by aliens.

    Serious stuff like that.

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    memoryvault

    MattB @ 399

    Yeah – I figured it would go right over your head – even when I put the dates in.

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    Maxine

    Haven’t Googled those figures but that is what was reported. Additional temporary morgue space had to be set up in Melbourne death rate was so high.

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    Maxine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disasters_in_Australia_by_death_toll

    374 deaths to heatwave Jan-Feb 2009

    I remember the figure given was rather higher.

    173 died from bush fires

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    memoryvault

    Maxine @ 402

    Oh Maxine, Maxine, how did we get from this:

    Steve, the info comes from the UK Met Office. Not a blog like where you get your misinformation from.

    To this:

    Haven’t Googled those figures but that is what was reported.

    in just a few comments?

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    Steve Schapel

    Maxine (#395): “Drop dead MV”

    LOL! Well, I can’t agree with the sentiments expressed, but at least you’re making sense! :)

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    Steve Schapel

    Maxine (#392)…

    No, Steve, the changes are not a good thing.

    Thanks for your opinion. We will have to agree to disagree here.

    We don’t want it to keep on happening at an ever-accelerating rate as trip points are passed.

    Relax, Dearie! I’m pretty sure you’re safe on that one!

    There is no evidence that the trend will reverse.

    Nor is there evidence that it won’t.

    AGW means SW

    Huh? Really?

    Southern Australia is drying out.

    I’d love to know what that means. But whatever, I guess we’re back again to “the climate is changing”, whereupon I am back to “true enough – so what?”

    Perth dams will be at zero% this summer.

    You got a secret clairvoyant assistant there?

    Jun SA rainfall was generally below average.

    If you mean “average” in the usual sense, I guess there is about a 50% chance that it would have been below, and about a 50% chance it would have been above. Oh well…

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    pattoh

    Today I was thinking about how Julia Gillard is the darling of all the imaginative young girls who see her a s a role model who broke through the glass ceiling & powered past all those filthy chauvinist misogynist males.
    Then it occurred to me as I was mulling over :-”There will be NO carbon tax in a government I lead”. This was a clear verbal contract made on public media to the nation. She now says she was mis-understood.
    Further, it has occurred to me that she, as the highest authority in the land & a qualified lawyer to boot, has redefined the meaning of the word NO.
    How many times have we heard the chant:- “What part of the word NO do you not understand?” & “No means No!”?
    Defense lawyers for accused sexual assault perps will be able to plead the “Gillard Defence” – “Yes your Honour she said no, but she did not really mean it that way”
    All the hard work of the feminist movement forsaken! Germs would be spitting acid & biting the nuts off front end loaders!
    I can just see the junior blue stocking set ripping the heads off their politically (if not anatomically) correct Fabian Barbies! Or at least bleaching the red out of the hair & replacing the sensible shoes & pants suits.

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    memoryvault

    Steve Schapel @ 406

    Southern Australia is drying out.

    Maybe there was a strike at the brewery?

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    cohenite

    Wow, Jo, you really have been trolled!

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    Caz

    Can I suggest that we gather up all the manure from the unexported beasts and dump it at parliament house? Afterall they’re used to bullshit.

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    Cate S

    Convoy update – just for something different – no…how about you guys google it and see how many pages are filled up with “Convoy of no Confidence…” oops – hint – there are a LOT!
    Good air time on ABC as well…oh…no! Could it be that people are “really going to do this”…answer YES!
    Cheers…and back to the trolls :) Good luck Jo ;)

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    Maxine

    Trip points:

    1. Frozen tundra thawing out and methane clathrates releasing methane (a GHG) into the atmosphere

    2. As Arctic ice coverage shrinks more and more sunlight is falling on, and absorbed by dark ocean rather than being reflected back by white snow

    3. Ocean being damaged by acidification—less storage of CO2 in exoskeletons of plankton etc

    Tipping points are why AGW won’t reverse and will in fact accelerate.

    All of southern Australia, in particular the SW part of WA is drying out, rainfall decreasing. You think that is good? You think ever-bigger, more deadly bushfires are good? All these trends due to AGW.

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    Maxine

    MV @ 408

    Which brewery? We got two!

    Nice evasion of the point tho.

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    Maxine

    407 Pattoh

    There is no carbon tax as such. More a ETS with fixed price on emissions for three years. The PM did say she would move on a carbon price and she has.

    The yanks could have done with someone with our PMs negotiating skills over the past week or so!

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    Maxine

    Slowly support for Abbot and the Coalition drops and support for Labor, PM Gillard and the ETS rises:

    Essential ALP 45% +1 NLP 55% -1 (primaries up 1 ALP down 1 NLP)

    So you idiots drive your trucks and toot your horn and look like all round losers and spend lots of $$$ doing so and you will achieve exactly 0.

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    Cate S

    You’re a bit touchy tonight Maxine – what’s wrong? Toot toot ;)

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    Cate S

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l |^^^^^^^^^^^| l
    | PROTEST CONVOY TO CANBERRA..||”””;..,___.
    |……_______=====_| l______________l _||__|…, ] | |
    “(@)’(@)””"”"”"*l’(@)l’(@)l “”"”"”"”"”"”"”(@)’(@)”"(@)

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    memoryvault

    Maxine @ 411

    1. Frozen tundra thawing out and methane clathrates releasing methane (a GHG) into the atmosphere

    Happens every year – STILL no “tipping point”.

    2. As Arctic ice coverage shrinks more and more sunlight is falling on, and absorbed by dark ocean rather than being reflected back by white snow

    Nice “theory”. Google “submarines surface at north pole” for a bit of history.

    3. Ocean being damaged by acidification—less storage of CO2 in exoskeletons of plankton etc

    Repeat after me:

    ACID + BASE = SALT + WATER.

    You CANNOT “acidify” an alkaline. “Acidification of the oceans” is a term used exclusively by those jumping on the global warming bandwagon. You won’t read it in any real chemistry text book.

    Besides which, the amount of any gas (CO2 included) that can be dissolved in any liquid (sea-water included) is inversely proportional to the temperature of the liquid (Henry’s Law) at constant pressure.

    You CANNOT argue “increasing global temperature” (including the oceans) and “increasing CO2 IN the oceans” at the same time.

    Sorry Maxine, it’s EITHER global warming, OR “ocean acidification” – you simply can’t have both at the same time.

    Very few things in science get the title LAW. It’s not called Henry’s LAW for nothing.

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  • #

    Imacca still refuses to apologize for name-calling. And seems unable to grasp the meaning of the word denier. As a courtesy I’m replying to a comment held in moderation.

    “Even if an oil sheik paid me it would make no difference to my scientific arguments.”

    But you contend that since the Govt pays CSIRO scientists it makes a difference to theirs??

    imacca – I am but a messenger. My scientific arguments depend on peer reviewed research. If an oil shiek paid me, and I wanted too, I still can’t actually change the data, the graphs or the words in peer reviewed papers that I quote.

    Those who can’t attack the reasoning, resort to ad homs.

    In my article about the lack of funding for skeptical scientists, I did not say the funding proved anything about the climate, and I did not say the pro warmer scientists should not be funded, merely that it’s ridiculous to expect good science from one sided funding. Yes, I think the monopolistic funding means scientists (who are mostly honest) are only looking for one type of answer. If I was funded by an oil sheik, you could expect that I might be biased, but I can’t change the satellite readings, or alter the ocean buoys. It’s not me who chooses which buoys to selectively omit. And if I was biased, you are free to point out the omissions. Since there are thousands of paid PR writers and voluntary journo’s who are pro-The-Big-Scam, you can be sure that someone would have caught me out in the three years since the handbook was released, and they haven’t.

    There is also that awkward documented fact that I was a believer in CAGW, but changed my mind, and wrote the Skeptics Handbook entirely without funding.

    Oh, and i’d really like to know what it was i said that you consider to be lies? re your:

    “When you turn up anonymously throwing lies, you don’t have a right to complain if people call you colourful insults in return.”

    You were asking why other insults against the pro-AGW posters were ok on this site. I was referring to a collective “you”, because I don’t know and, sorry, don’t care, which particular insult was leveled at which particular impolite anonymous writer that turned up simultaneously. So to clarify, I don’t accuse you personally — the anonymous poster called imacca — of writing a lie. You name-call, can’t justify your use of English, and posit ridiculous fallacies*. And actually I’ll retract the word “lie” and change it to untruth. (I can’t be bothered with the hair splitting over what an anonymous nobody did or didn’t know consciously). Untruth is more accurate, thanks for helping me improve my writing.

    *ridiculous fallacies: Like it’s OK for Gillard to not-have-foreseen the hung parliament so it’s ok that she said one thing and did the opposite. You think that’s not a lie. If she had to break her promises in order to form a hung parliament then it’s a government based on a lie. She didn’t have to say “yes” to the green independents. The public never had the chance to discuss nor vote upon a major transformational policy. It’s not just a lie, it’s a lie that really matters.

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    brc

    Maxine @ various

    Essential ALP 45% +1 NLP 55% -1 (primaries up 1 ALP down 1 NLP)

    I don’t know which poll you’re looking up but the latest essential poll shows Labor losing the 1% it briefly gained. The latest figures are 31% primary vote for ALP vs 49% for the coalition, and 2PP are 56% to 44%. Let me translate that for you – since the carbon tax details were released, there has been zero change in the record low support for Labor. Essential is most ALP friendly poll, so I wouldn’t get too optimistic about a recovery of support any time soon. Here is the results but you’ll see them on just about every newspaper tomorrow. The carbon tax support is still stuck in the low 30s with 51% opposing – in other words, dead in the water with regards to public support. The only thing more unpopular than the carbon tax is the malaysian people swap, which goes to show the convoy and other protests are about much more than just an idiotic carbon taxing plan.

    As for all your ‘tipping points’ – you really do appear to be reading from an old script sheet on this one. All your other troll mates (did you all come from that blog post at crikey?) don’t bother with these 2006 era talking points, so I’m not sure why you didn’t get the updated memo. These days, you’re supposed to wax and wane about the political process rather than try and come up with laughable predictions about the arctic being ‘ice free’ in a couple of years. Then the great ‘ocean a-little-bit-less-alkaline’ scare – AKA ‘acidification’. It’s like when I turn my oven off, I call it ‘freezification of the oven’.

    Not only that, but all your ‘proof’ is just descriptions of a warming planet. There is zero actual evidence that any of the warming is mostly caused by human activities. The ‘missing link’ has been glossed around and talked over for a decade now but it’s still missing. We know it is missing otherwise you and the others would be bashing us all over the head with it on a daily basis. I could agree with you that there will be no snow in England anymore, or that Australia ski fields will have to close due to lack of business, or that Brisbane, Sydney and Perth will run out of water – and that still wouldn’t actually prove that these things were because Australia burns up lots of cheap energy in the pursuit of a lifestyle unsurpassed by anyone on the planet at any point in human history.

    I guess my point is – debate is good, but only when you get your facts even remotely straight before firing away. Please try and find your 2011 talking poitns memo to paste from, as the 2006 one is pretty tatty round the edges.

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    IQSRLOW

    Maxine is actually a lonely old twitterblogger called Jovial Monk who spent his twilight years killing his brain cells with home brew
    He is a Labor apologist and actually still thinks the pink batts debacle was a really good idea (just to give you an idea of his mindset)

    BTW Jo, I went to high school with your brother many moons ago. Good to see a local lass doing well

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    Way to go !

    CONVOY ORGANIZERS – GREAT STUFF! THANK YOU.

    (Just read an article on ireport CNN – I think it is called – am so gobsmacked don’t know if I’m seeing right!!!) This must be getting some international coverage?

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    Rob Moore

    Trolls are all hot under the collar about heatwave deaths.

    When the POWER bills treble and employment plummets- that’s when we will see some real premature deaths.

    You greenies can’t spot the Carbon Traders from the the trees!

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    J Knowles

    We are privileged to have Jo run this site so please respect the rules and refrain from school-yard comments.

    I used to be a member of the Tasmanian Wilderness Society, Greenpeace and a few other conservation orientated groups. In 1982 I rafted the Franklin River and joined the protest and at Uni I used to bore people about man-made warming.
    Since then I’ve worked out that the carbon tax has nothing to do with the climate of this planet. It is merely a tax on industrialisation and will cripple that which has helped this nation weather the global economic storm.
    I’m just a sole trader who is sick of the Institutionalization of Waste by all parties in Oz politics and it appears that at least half the nation is in general agreement on this one. That’s unusual and worth acting upon so I’m driving to Canberra.

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    Bush bunny

    Maxine @ ? I don’t know where you get your figures from but they are wrong. More people die from the cold than heat.
    SA has heaps of water and run off from the Murray Darling from the rain in Qld last December. I was interested in
    what Tony Windsor is going to report re his climate change mission to Europe. He is in Norway? I hope he considers that Norway suffers the land of the midnight sun and like the Hebrides off Scotland that in summer the sunlight is 22 hours long. Then the sun disappears 24 hours a day for polar nights.

    Temps in UK right now the mid summer. About 19C in parts.
    Being English I always said Sydney winters were like English summers. You can’t quote one region to substantiate any other being evidence of AGW. Nor compare the Southern Hemisphere with the Northern that has several climate zones depending where they are. When politicians start to wake up that the science (?) they are basing the carbon tax is wrong, a lie, a subterfuge to sway on the side of the IPCC World Government propaganda we may find
    the Convoy of No Confidence is a reaction to lies not just scientific untruths based on computer models.

    JO: If politicians lie, isn’t that reason for a class action – Well I think it is. And I feel sorry for those who in the media stated ‘climate skeptics’ should be branded and gassed. They are all now swinging away from AGW and concentrating on the political agendas of the Greens and ALP.

    You hit home on your 9 July video, congratulations, and why don’t you who have the interest in this lie called AGW tune into it.You might learn something that you obviously won’t accept.

    We are a natural ice planet and experiencing an interglacial. And if anything we are heading towards another cooling period. And CO2 doesn’t not drive the weather or climate. And carbon emissions have not lowered even though carbon trading is almost valueless.So who benefits, the bankers and green energy funds, subsidies and carbon traders.

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    Bush bunny

    Oh I see the AGW believers stay up late like me. Well if you don’t like my comment say why? Or is it the informed opinion I hold that you disagree with?

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    BobC

    MattB @382:
    August 1st, 2011 at 1:21 pm

    “In English, the word denier, means to deny something. In science, the only thing that counts is empirical evidence. You can provide no evidence we deny, therefore the term is 100% wrong.”

    Of course I can find evidence you deny. This whole blog denies that AGW is a concern, and it denies that the consensus science is robust. There is nothing malicious, it is just the way it is.

    Not too surprising that you think that “consensus science” is “empirical evidence”.

    Now, try looking up the definition of “empirical evidence” and see if you can learn something (finally).

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    Sceptical Sam

    Projectenfour @ 319

    Springsteen

    If he’s a leftie he’s lying.

    Go the Convoy

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l |^^^^^^^^^^^| l
    | PROTEST CONVOY TO CANBERRA..||”””;..,___.
    |……_______=====_| l______________l _||__|…, ] | |
    “(@)’(@)”””””””*l’(@)l’(@)l “”””””””””””””(@)’(@)””(@)

    Joan Miró eat your heart out.

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    Sceptical Sam

    Adam Smith @ 347

    You and your commo useful idiots.

    Go the Convoy

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l |^^^^^^^^^^^| l
    | PROTEST CONVOY TO CANBERRA..||”””;..,___.
    |……_______=====_| l______________l _||__|…, ] | |
    “(@)’(@)”””””””*l’(@)l’(@)l “”””””””””””””(@)’(@)””(@)

    Great art just keeps on rolling.

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    MattB

    BobC in 427 that’s not the point… being a denier doesn’t make you wrong. An innocent man can deny murdering someone.

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    P Dragone

    Bob C,

    That’s not a bad description of the behavior we have seen a lot of lately among the proponents of CAGW. In their case, the imminent threat is the collapse of their ability to influence people with their fact-free dire warnings of disaster — designed to concentrate political power among their allies.

    From the way the trolls have been bombing this thread, you might conclude that they see the convoy as an “imminent threat”.

    Now that is a very good example of confirmation bias. Thank you, Bob C.

    It has been made very clear that the pro-AGW theory on this thread do not find the convoy ‘terrifying’ or ‘an imminent threat’; rather it is either amusing, an example of good democratic freedom being put to use or a positive contribution to Prime Minister Julia Gillard’s government by boosting employment, stimulating the economy and adding to the GDP.

    The fact people come here to present information and ideas that challenge the accepted norm, but these are rejected mostly without discussion, other than to point to vague conspiracy theories, and that the very act of posting that information and ideas is construed to be a reaction to terror of a line of trucks, is a very strong example of confirmation bias.

    It runs through this blog like dye from the pink shorts in a wash of cream sheets.

    [REPLY: OK, so lets run with Dragone's thesis: AGW-Labor party fans think the Convoy idea is so amusing they have rushed to join discussions of it, making sure to mention what a stupid, waste of time and exploitative plan it is "for idiots". Yep. Sure... ;-) Keep trying Mr or Ms Dragone.]

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    P Dragone

    Ms Nova,
    [Dragone, you are struggling with English. Find a dictionary.]
    With all due respect, may I humbly point out that you have a very long road to tread before your use of English is ever a match for my own.

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    Mark D.

    Tipping points!

    Oh My GAWED we’re gonna die!

    WAIL WAIL, Gnash teeth WAIL WAIL……

    Meanwhile back at reality: still waiting for actual evidence.

    http://blogs.forbes.com/jamestaylor/2011/07/27/new-nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-in-global-warming-alarmism/

    excerpt: The study indicates far less future global warming will occur than United Nations computer models have predicted, and supports prior studies indicating increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide trap far less heat than alarmists have claimed.

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    Bush bunny

    MattB@430 Grow up Matt. What an illogical statement.

    A ‘guilty’ man can deny murdering someone too. When it comes down to it the evidence has to prove someone is guilty of a crime. And that is the problem, the accused has been deemed guilty without the evidence being examined and presented by a defense against this AGW fraud! We all believe in climate change occurring but don’t believe what the government has presented as truthful set of evidence being climate change or AGW is solely caused by human activity primarily by developed industrialized countries.
    They are lying. And anyone in my opinion that supports this AGW science is guilty by association or just plain gullible.

    Carbon taxing or ETS or carbon trading (that has proven useless and expensive for some more than others) will not change the climate so why have it? I don’t trust this government at all and if this legislation passes I see big trouble ahead.

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    Adam Smith

    Now, try looking up the definition of “empirical evidence” and see if you can learn something (finally).

    Yes, I go where the empirical evidence is, that’s why I think we should use nuclear power to deal with climate change.

    Nuclear power is safer than coal power, not simply because it produces very little carbon pollution across the entire nuclear life-cycle, but because it doesn’t result in people dying in coal mines and suffering respiratory illnesses.

    In fact, even if you neglect the empirical evidence on climate change, everyone should support nuclear power simply on the grounds that it will reduce particulate pollution in the air which means a better environment for everyone.

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    Bush bunny

    Mark D – Well done maybe that should be sent to Julia Gillard and Christine Milne.

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    Bush bunny

    Adam that will not work on this blog. Germany is shelving their nuclear power in favor of coal fueled plants. The problem with nuclear is not only safety that no one can afford to dismiss but also a nuclear plant requires 200,000,000 litres of water a day to keep it cool. There is some interest in fusion nuclear but that might be a another
    excuse to gain investors. Hydro electric is the best if we had enough rivers etc., geo thermal, might be feasible but way way into the future the same as wave. Wind absolutely useless and found so overseas to the chagrin. And nuclear plants don’t come cheap nor does the electricity they supply.

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    Joanne Nova @171 – I quickly reached the same conclusion. The number of thumbs down is almost unprececented and indicates an organized effort (ala ACORN in the Colonies) by some who are running scared. If the rally meant nothing, they would not be wasting their time. Best of luck with your convoy!

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    P Dragone

    Ms Nova,
    I am quite content in not using the word ‘denier’ if you find it upsetting. In fact, my preference is to not use it, as the origins of the word can be found in the 15th Century in relation to coinage of low value, and later as a grade for cloth, such as the denier of stockings. The latest form, in which the syllable ‘er’ is added to a verb such as ‘deny, is more an example of clumsy word construction, much like the use of ‘warmist’ to describe people who accept the theory of Anthropological Global Warmimg.

    I would agree that the use of both terms is an attempt by people with divergent views to invoke group stereotyping and define as deviant, in sociological terms, views contrary to the ones they hold. This serves to strengthen group solidarity by defining unacceptable behaviour or views and rejecting those that do not conform. It is common phenomenon.

    To test the norms of this blog, it is interesting to see which terms are rejected and which are not. Use of the term ‘Denier’ (as in one who denies) is strong taboo, but the opposite, “an AGW believer”, is acceptable.

    It is the taboos of a group which often yield the most interesting information about it, and in this instance, so it is the case.

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    Gazza:
    July 31st, 2011 at 1:11 pm
    225 – tell the Americans that – You seem to be exactly the type that Twain had on his mind when he made his quip about not arguing with idiots
    Still its nice to see anti-intellectualism alive and well not just in the “Tea-Party” but here

    You could make a point without resorting to name calling of people not involved with this debate or discussion. What prompts you to abandon all reason and resort to Ad hominems? Is it a lack of any qualitative input?

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    Adam Smith

    Adam that will not work on this blog. Germany is shelving their nuclear power in favor of coal fueled plants.

    This is untrue and is not supported by empirical evidence, they are going to build wind and gas, but will most likely ultimately end up importing nuclear generated electricity from France.

    Here’s an article from NASDAQ that explains how you are wrong:
    http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=201107190937dowjonesdjonline000198&title=germanys-merkel-will-need-more-gas-to-replace-nuclear-power

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    Gillard and Ludwig said they supported Live Export – then cut off the trade to Indo overnight. Humans in the North of Australia are suffering, not to mention the animals.

    Gillard said, “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead,” then proceeded to tell us we’re going to get a carbon tax no matter what we all think.

    Wayne Swan said during the last Federal Election Campaign, “It’s not possible that we’re bringing in a carbon tax. That is an hysterically inaccurate claim being made by the Coalition.”

    They promised computers…for which many expectant school teachers are still waiting.

    They established a Government-subsidised and -overseen insulation scheme which killed people, burned down homes, and when the program was finally terminated, left insulation business investors hanging.

    They are sending people to Malaysia while still severely limiting cattle to Indonesia.

    I say, “ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!” I’m going on CONVOY to attempt to bring about a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in the Federal Government.

    Join me. Dig deep, make a sacrifice, ask for help if you must, but please, join the CONVOY.

    Australia is worth the effort.

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    Adam Smith

    You could make a point without resorting to name calling of people not involved with this debate or discussion. What prompts you to abandon all reason and resort to Ad hominems? Is it a lack of any qualitative input?

    Yes I agree with you. In post #320 I was called “Cretin” which just demonstrated that the poster had run out of arguments, so had to revert to abuse instead.

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    Adam Smith

    Gillard and Ludwig said they supported Live Export – then cut off the trade to Indo overnight. Humans in the North of Australia are suffering, not to mention the animals.

    Yes I agree with you, and the fact that live exports have restarted isn’t enough to convince me that the government supports live exports.
    http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2011/07/30/362895_latest-news.html

    Gillard said, “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead,” then proceeded to tell us we’re going to get a carbon tax no matter what we all think.

    Yes this is a good point, the fact the pricing mechanism is a fixed price emissions trading scheme shouldn’t dissuade anyone from saying it is a tax.

    They promised computers…for which many expectant school teachers are still waiting.

    Yes I think it is shocking the government had installed only 434,060 computers in schools as of March this year. That is terrible.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/coalition-raises-doubts-over-school-computers/story-e6frgakx-1226061477630

    They established a Government-subsidised and -overseen insulation scheme which killed people, burned down homes, and when the program was finally terminated, left insulation business investors hanging.

    Yes it is terrible that the federal government regulated an industry that previously faced no regulation at all, and which resulted in a higher rate of deaths per installation before the regulation than after. Everyone knows that deregulation is the best way for industries to run.

    I do think, however, that the program is an example of why Direct Action climate change schemes are inefficient, because they have a high cost of abatement. For the insulation scheme it was about $97 per tonne of CO2, which is strange because CO2 is weightless.

    I say, “ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!” I’m going on CONVOY to attempt to bring about a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in the Federal Government.

    Yes i agree with you, the Governor-General should sack the prime minister, and since the Governor-General is the head of the military, she should use tanks to arrest the Prime Minister.

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    OUR Australian Government? Please, let it be so.

    This is (purportedly) a democracy.

    For a party to deceive the electorate about what it intends to do in order to get elected is undemocratic.

    This Labor Government intends to implement a carbon tax which proposes to sign away sovereignty to international organisations, target mining companies that don’t support them, and stop live animal export industries.

    The public deserves a vote on these policies.

    I’m certain that some good old-fashioned Labor members and senators will come to agree with the idea of a vote. When they stand on the side of everyday Australians rather than a powerful few, they will be rewarded with a continuation of their privilege to serve in the House of Reps or the Senate. They will feel the ground shaking from the grassroots movement…and they will respond. They will respond.

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    Adam Smith

    For a party to deceive the electorate about what it intends to do in order to get elected is undemocratic.

    Yes I agree. For example, when Tony Abbott, as health minister, promised during the 2004 election campaign that he would not change the Medicare Safety Net thresholds, only to increase them (thus increasing the health care costs for about 400,000 people) after in early 2005, I said that I would never support a party that had Tony Abbott as a senior MP, let alone leader.

    This Labor Government intends to implement a carbon tax which proposes to sign away sovereignty to international organisations, target mining companies that don’t support them, and stop live animal export industries.

    Yeah I agree. For example when the Coalition took WorkChoices to an election…

    Oh sorry, my mistake, they never took that policy to an election, but they enacted it anyway, including forcing it through parliament in just 1 month.

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    P Dragone

    Janet,

    Gillard and Ludwig said they supported Live Export – then cut off the trade to Indo overnight.

    The Indonesian government intends to be self-sufficient in livestock for processing in their country by 2014. Those engaged in live export of cattle to Indonesia had better update their business plans very quickly, because no Australian government will change that. May I suggest you save your money, and spend it on finding new markets for your beef?

    They established a Government-subsidised and -overseen insulation scheme which killed people, burned down homes, and when the program was finally terminated, left insulation business investors hanging.

    As we are discussing empirical evidence on this blog, the hard evidence is that your assertions in that comment are incorrect. The evidence is that the rate of insulation-caused house fires actually fell substantially under the new safety regulations imposed on the industry by the government as part of the HIS.

    The workplace deaths were tragic, but no more so than the workplace deaths which occur regularly in Australia, which do not seem to receive the same approbation. These deaths were caused by businesses who (‘allegedly’, as some cases may still be before the courts) ignored OHS&W rules and the government was no more to blame than if a person was hurt in a taxi ride paid for with their Centrelink pension money. It was ultimately the householders’ responsibility to ensure the quality of work they contracted and paid for with the government grant given to them.

    The scheme was stopped because Mr Abbott made much hay from the each tragic death for party political purposes, forcing the closure of a successful government initiative which provided training and employment to many people in need of jobs, supported an industry and provided insulation which cut heating/cooling home energy bills for house-holders by up to 40%. The blame for the early discontinuation of the HIS lies squarely at the feet of the Federal Opposition.

    Reference
    http://www.climatechange.gov.au/~/media/publications/energy-efficiency/Home-Insulation-Hawke-Report.pdf

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    imacca:No. This is not about “offending me”.

    The denier label is designed to dehumanize, dismiss and denigrate. The label is 100% wrong, Orwellian, destroys the English language and prevents meaningful conversation. (It is you that denies the evidence, after all). After 60,000 comments I know that the people who can’t reason (see ad hominem) are the ones that inflame threads, and contribute little.

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    BobC

    P Dragone — Re your “argument” at #440:

    Check out “Sophistry”.

    The objection to the word “denier” is not an objection to your definition of it, (who cares about that, anyway?) but to the way it has been used to denigrate those who don’t accept without question the bogus “consensus science” of AGW.

    This is evident to anyone who can read. Who do you think you are swaying with such a specious argument anyway? It just makes you look foolish.

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    P. Dragone

    Ms Nova,

    The denier label is designed to dehumanize, dismiss and denigrate.

    I agree. Denier is an ugly word, just like a ladder in a pair of 15 denier silk stockings.

    (Your trolling needs to end) CTS

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    Barry

    I’m going because I hate communists,,,,,,,, hope the rest of Australia wakes up to who these clowns really are………………

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    memoryvault at 419:

    Frozen tundra thawing out and methane clathrates releasing methane (a GHG) into the atmosphere
    Happens every year – STILL no “tipping point”.

    Agreed, moreover, during the previous interglacial (the Eemian, some 100,000 years ago), temperatures around the Arctic were 5-10 degr.C higher than now. An icefree North Pole at least in summer, forests growing up to the polar oceans and no permafrost… CH4 levels in that period 700 ppmv, no runaway.

    Besides which, the amount of any gas (CO2 included) that can be dissolved in any liquid (sea-water included) is inversely proportional to the temperature of the liquid (Henry’s Law) at constant pressure.
    You CANNOT argue “increasing global temperature” (including the oceans) and “increasing CO2 IN the oceans” at the same time.

    Sorry memoryvault, but here you are wrong: you can have both. The problem is in the end of the first sentence: “at constant pressure”. But the CO2 pressure in the atmosphere increased with about 100 microatm (about 100 ppmv increase) over the past 160 years, of which 60 microatm in the past 50 years of accurate measurements.

    An increase of 1 degr.C gives about 16 microatm increase of pCO2(aq) in seawater, but as the pCO2(atm) increased with about 100 microatm, more CO2 from the atmosphere entered the ocean surface layer, increasing the total amount of carbon (CO2 and _bi_carbonates) in the mixed layer. This is observed by regular seaship measurements and a few long series (Bermuda and Hawaii):
    http://www.bios.edu/Labs/co2lab/research/IntDecVar_OCC.html

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    Ferdinand @ 453

    Is it your tactic to have long winded arguements to get others of the point of the article under discussion?

    See here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUuzxjwXVXE

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    memoryvault

    Ferdinand @ 453

    Sorry memoryvault, but here you are wrong: you can have both. The problem is in the end of the first sentence: “at constant pressure”. But the CO2 pressure in the atmosphere increased with about 100 microatm (about 100 ppmv increase) over the past 160 years, of which 60 microatm in the past 50 years of accurate measurements.

    I just went and checked, Ferdinand, and the atmospheric pressure at sea level is currently 101.325 kPa (14.7 psi) today. That’s exactly what it was back in the Sixties when I was at high school learning this stuff, and exactly the same as it was when my grandfather was at school when CO2 was 280ppm.

    Changing the composition of the atmosphere (at least in the minute quantities – ppm – we are discussing here), does NOT change atmospheric pressure. If it did we would have to constantly amend the boiling point of water at various altitudes, just as one for instance of something that is NOT happening.

    Yes, I’ve read “published” papers alleging that it does happen with CO2, and I’ve read rebuttals of those papers. The interesting thing is even the papers alleging that it does happen, claim a possible change of only +/- 4ppm CO2, which you yourself have just confirmed on another thread on this site is indiscernible from natural variance.

    If something is “indiscernible from natural variance” one can ascribe it to what one likes – anything from the Will of the Flying Spaghetti Monster – to the uptake of anthropogenic CO2 – as your linked paper does.

    Either way, it is not making the alkaline oceans “more acidic”.

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    Rob Moore

    Jo,
    The “deniers” are the “Get up ” trolls and their mission is to bore us to death with their cute wit an anecdotes of armageddon. Infantile intelligence to swallow the swill put up in the name of science!

    Funny how they see the need to bore us at this venue as if it is going to change the 80% who don’t want the UN tax and power grab. I just tell them to p.o. on my site- if you don’t like the guests at a party -then leave.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 445

    Yes i agree with you, the Governor-General should sack the prime minister, and since the Governor-General is the head of the military, she should use tanks to arrest the Prime Minister.

    Which goes to prove you have not bothered reading anything I’ve posted on how OZ is governed, nor the Australian Constitution, nor the 1688 Bill of Rights from which all this flows. That, or being a good little cultist, you choose to remain willfully ignorant.

    The GG cannot “sack the Prime Minister”.
    The GG can only dismiss the entire Parliament.

    The GG cannot “use tanks”.
    “Tanks” are part of the Australian Army.

    Go make yourself busy, read a bit of history (starting with the 1688 Bill of Rights) and find out why the navy is the “ROYAL Australian Navy”, the air force is the “ROYAL Australian Air Force”, but the army is just the plain old “Australian Army”.

    There is a very specific reason.

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    Wow, this thread got totally hijacked. I for one am happy to be called a denier. I believe that the CAGW fraud has changed the meaning of the word denier once again to be “seeker of truth through empiricism”.

    It would be great if those people being directed to this site from alarmist sites can please put their case forward for examination. What are we denying? And, where is the scientific paper that explains and provides proof for the CAGW theory? Please, us deniers have been waiting years for these answers. Obviously we’re too stupid to find them for ourselves. We need your help!

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    Winston

    It is interesting to note that “Adam Smith” in particular chose to go on the attack on a thread about a convoy to make peaceful protest at an onerous tax by trying to divert to scientifc arguments from authority about the “science” of climate, yet when previous multiple posts dealt specifically with these very issues he was nowhere to be seen.

    Strikes me that his only aim was to completely disrupt the thread of a what he percieves as a major public relations threat. His responses show that he clearly is reading directly from the Labor policy playbook, and his main weapon is a smarmy, sarcastic attitude and undeserved sense of intellectual superiority. I like particularly the way he puts words into our mouths, and then presumes to argue on our behalf with ideas that we do not hold. Tony Abbott seems to have especially gotten under his skin , which is to my mind the best possible reason to vote for him, if only to bug the hell out of people like him. The only Armageddon coming is the comeuppance of pseudointellectuals like him at the next election, with Labor consigned to the scrapheap precisely because of people like him, so out of touch with the voters he is meant to be serving.

    [Well said Winston. I've bolded. Thanks. --JN]

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    Bob Malloy

    Maxine: @412.

    2. As Arctic ice coverage shrinks more and more sunlight is falling on, and absorbed by dark ocean rather than being reflected back by white snow

    You are no doubt thinking of reports like this one.

    The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen, Norway.
    Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers, he declared, all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met with as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm.
    Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared. Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts, which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.

    Source, The Washington Post November 2nd 1922.

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    Adam Smith

    The GG cannot “sack the Prime Minister”.

    Yes I agree with you that the Governor General can not sack the Prime Minister, that was my mistake. In fact, John Kerr never sacked the Prime Minister in 1975.

    I heard on the radio today that Gillard is increasing spending on health by $16 billion over the next 9 years.

    She never promised to do this before the last election, so it is another lie that means she should be sacked.

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    Adam Smith

    His responses show that he clearly is reading directly from the Labor policy playbook, and his main weapon is a smarmy, sarcastic attitude and undeserved sense of intellectual superiority.

    Well gee, if I have a superiority complex, you seem to have a much more serious inferiority complex.

    It is quite astonishing that you dedicated an over long and poorly written paragraph simply to attacking me personally rather than criticising in detail anything I have written.

    That simply suggests things about the quality of your debating skills.

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    People why not write (a multiplicity of people) letters to the editors of your local papers advising them this is happening. Let’s tell the general public about this – who knows they may want to join in…. own cars ….. express their support. There is no convoy from Tasmania…… but you have our support!

    Can you imagine the traffic chaos ? Tv and news media may be reticient to cover this now, but if all the major arterial roads are crawling…… during peak hour….. if Canberra is brought to a standstill — whoopieeeee they will not be able to ignore it will they?

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    Winston

    Adam, so which of your posts relates at all to the thread regarding the convoy? I must have missed it. And which of your posts wasn’t smarmy and sarcastic? Must have missed that also.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 461

    I heard on the radio today that Gillard is increasing spending on health by $16 billion over the next 9 years.
    She never promised to do this before the last election, so it is another lie that means she should be sacked.

    Good gracious Adam, you DO write some rubbish.

    Overhauling the Commonwealth – State arrangements for funding of health care has been a major issue since Rudd won the election in 2007. It was till very much in the limelight when Rudd was deposed and JuLIAR took over, and continued to be so in the last election, which was apparently won by Brownshirt Bob.

    It has been under continuing discussion, and has been continually reported on, ever since. It’s been in the news on an almost weekly basis since 2007.

    Oh – sorry – I see the problem. Nobody’s written a “peer-reviewed, published paper” on it, so you’re probably not up to date on developments.

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    Adam Smith

    memoryvault:

    The GG cannot “use tanks”.
    “Tanks” are part of the Australian Army.

    Oh dear. I’ve figured you out, you just make anything up! Section 68:

    The command in chief of the naval and military forces of the Commonwealth is vested in the Governor‑General as the Queen’s representative.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s68.html

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    Adam Smith

    It was till very much in the limelight when Rudd was deposed and JuLIAR took over, and continued to be so in the last election, which was apparently won by Brownshirt Bob.

    Excuse me memoryvault, but the term “brownshirt” has direct Nazi connotations and is designed to dehumanize, dismiss and denigrate. The label is 100% wrong, Orwellian, destroys the English language and prevents meaningful conversation.

    If you have something worthwhile to contribute you will do so without implying that someone is a nazi just because you don’t like their policies.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 461

    In fact, John Kerr never sacked the Prime Minister in 1975.

    No, he didn’t Adam. He dismissed Parliament – a double dissolution – and issued writs for a new election. Parliament had refused to pass Supply, effectively making “government” impossible.

    John Kerr did exactly what was required of him in his position, according to both the Constitution AND the “accepted conventions”.

    Where he parted company with “convention” and earned the ire of Whitlam and others, was in appointing Fraser as the head of the caretaker government pending the elections.

    As I’ve written before, if the Convoy people want to actually accomplish something, they need to work towards creating the same kind of scenario with a petition requesting the GG withhold Royal Assent from the carbon tax legislation until the Parliament establishes it reflects the “Will of the People”.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 466

    A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing . . .

    Go read what the 1688 Bill of Rights (which the Coronation Oath is based upon) says about the monarch having “standing armies”.

    The ROYAL Australian Navy and ROYAL Australian Air Force are the monarchs to command; The army only becomes the monarchs to command at the express WILL of the people, as represented by the Parliament.

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    Adam Smith

    No, he didn’t Adam. He dismissed Parliament – a double dissolution – and issued writs for a new election. Parliament had refused to pass Supply, effectively making “government” impossible.

    No this is completely wrong. Kerr sacked Whitlam, which had the effect of sacking all the other ministers too, he then appointed Fraser Prime Minister even though Fraser did not have the confidence of the House of Representatives. The House of Representatives then passed a motion demanding that Whitlam be reinstated as P.M. Fraser then used the double dissolution trigger bills accumulated when Whitlam was P.M. to request the G.G. dissolve both houses of parliament, which he agreed to.

    The G.G. can’t dissolve parliament without receiving a request from the Prime Minister to do so. The Prime Minister at the 1975 election was Fraser, not Whitlam.
    [John Kerr did exactly what was required of him in his position, according to both the Constitution AND the “accepted conventions”.]
    Well this is wrong on both counts. There is nothing in the constitution that says the Governor General should sack the Prime Minister. They are inherently reserve powers.
    [Where he parted company with “convention” and earned the ire of Whitlam and others, was in appointing Fraser as the head of the caretaker government pending the elections.]
    Err “head of a caretaker government”, that would be “Prime Minister”, but of course you couldn’t admit that because it implies that your earlier point is wrong!
    [As I’ve written before, if the Convoy people want to actually accomplish something, they need to work towards creating the same kind of scenario with a petition requesting the GG withhold Royal Assent from the carbon tax legislation until the Parliament establishes it reflects the “Will of the People”.]
    The Governor General withholding royal assent on a bill that has passed both chambers in identical form would be an astonishing abuse of power that is unprecedented in the 110 year history of our nation.

    If any Governor General did that they should be sacked by the Prime Minister, because it would demonstrate a complete disregard for Australia’s democratic processes.

    The Governor General acts on the advice of ministers, and at the most fundamental level must respect the decisions of the parliament whether they personally like them or not.

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    Adam Smith

    Go read what the 1688 Bill of Rights (which the Coronation Oath is based upon) says about the monarch having “standing armies”.

    Happy to do so, after you read Section 68 of the constitution that says:

    The command in chief of the naval and military forces of the Commonwealth is vested in the Governor‑General as the Queen’s representative.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s68.html

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    Adam Smith

    The ROYAL Australian Navy and ROYAL Australian Air Force are the monarchs to command; The army only becomes the monarchs to command at the express WILL of the people, as represented by the Parliament.

    What the hell are you talking about? The RAAF has only existed since 1921, the constitution came into effect on Jan 1, 1901. The reference to “military” in section 68 means the ARMY, because there simply was no Air Force.

    And I should also point out to you that there is NO legislative requirement for the deployment of Australia’s armed forces. The cabinet simply decides they wish to make a military commitment some where, and they tell the G.G. to make it official, which the G.G. must comply with because they operate on the advice of the democratically elected government!

    So you are wrong on this one in about 7 different ways.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 468

    When Brownshirt Bob stops supporting the views of people who want to lock me up, tattoo me for my beliefs, put me on a death train, and gas me, I’ll stop calling him Brownshirt Bob.

    When Brownshirt Bob stops calling for government control of the media, I’ll stop calling him Brownshirt Bob.

    When Brownshirt Bob stops supporting the dissolution of Australian Sovereignty in favour of a One World Government (technically treason as a sitting member of Parliament), I’ll stop calling him Brownshirt Bob.

    When Brownshirt Bob’s mob stop smashing the windows of Jewish shopkeepers, I’ll stop calling him Brownshirt Bob.

    Until then, if the cap fits . . . .

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    Adam Smith

    When Brownshirt Bob stops supporting the views of people who want to lock me up, tattoo me for my beliefs, put me on a death train, and gas me, I’ll stop calling him Brownshirt Bob.

    Well the moderator of this blog has explained that such language use is designed to dehumanize, dismiss and denigrate. The label is 100% wrong, Orwellian, destroys the English language and prevents meaningful conversation.

    So you obviously have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this blog.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith – various

    From the 1688 Bill of Rights

    That the raising or keeping a standing army within the kingdom in time of peace unless it be with consent of Parliament is against law.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/act/consol_act/bor16881wams2c2306/s6.html

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    Adam Smith

    [From the 1688 Bill of Rights]
    Thank you for your non-sequitor, but Australia DOES have a standing army!

    Unlike the U.S., Australia doesn’t need to pass a bill with every new parliament to reconstitute its army!

    READ THE CONSTITUTION!

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ various

    From John Kerr’s “Statement of Reasons”

    If a Prime Minister refuses to resign or to advise an election, and this is the case with Mr Whitlam, my constitutional authority and duty require me to do what I have now done – to withdraw his Commission – and to invite the Leader of the Opposition to form a caretaker government – that is one that makes no appointments or dismissals and initiates no policies until a general election is held. It is most desirable that he should guarantee supply. Mr Fraser will be asked to give a necessary undertakings and advise whether he is prepared to recommend a double dissolution. He will also be asked to guarantee supply.

    The decisions I have made were made after I was satisfied that Mr Whitlam could not obtain supply. No other decision open to me would enable the Australian people to decide for themselves what should be done.

    Once I had made up my mind, for my own part, what I must do if Mr Whitlam persisted in his stated intentions I consulted the Chief Justice of Australia, Sir Garfield Barwick, I have his permission to say that I consulted him in this way.

    The result is that there will be an early general election for both Houses and the people can do what, in a democracy such as ours, is their responsibility and duty and theirs alone. It is for the people now to decide the issue which the two leaders have failed to settle.

    Kerr exercised his power to return the power to the people as the final arbiters on what to do with an unworkable Parliament. The nuts and bolts of exactly how he dotted the i’s and crossed the t’s can be argued indefinitely – the aim and the result remained the same.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 476

    Unlike the U.S., Australia doesn’t need to pass a bill with every new parliament to reconstitute its army!

    Who on earth said we did – YOU are the one who implied the GG could “send in tanks”.

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    Adam Smith

    [Kerr exercised his power to return the power to the people as the final arbiters on what to do with an unworkable Parliament. ]
    What? He could’ve done that without sacking the PM!!!!

    Sounds like a bit of arse covering / historical revisionism to me. You know, making up a motivate after the fact.

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 479

    It doesn’t take more than half a brain to figure Kerr went about it in the way he did to avoid the very constitutional crisis you yourself were posting about not half an hour ago.

    Now, unless you want to get back to matters that relate to the convoy, I think I’ll stick to debating with somebody with more than half a brain.

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    Bush bunny

    Adam you must be a republican. Too young to remember 1975
    and in someways I welcome that lack of memory.

    Whitlam had stirred up Australia on many fronts, and his ministers were not acting in the best interests of the Country. The Senate voted to suspend supply, that the Gov.Gen could do nothing other than dissolve both houses. He never consulted the Queen as she can not interfer with Commonwealth countries political affairs. He informed her after the fact. And Fraser actually won a landslide election by the people.

    Bob Brown has threatened to cause a double dissolution if the Opposition win the next election and decide to suspend
    the carbon tax legislation or amend it of course.
    That’s seems to suggest he overestimates his power, as he may not be reelected. A double dissolution dissolves both houses.

    The GG is the constitutional ‘head of state’ although the term is not used in the Constitution in Australia, but the term is also used for the State governors. The Queen is the monarch and I have a letter from her stating she has no power to intervene in Australian politics nor give a comment on it.

    The GG is the person who signs warrants for Commissions
    in the armed forces and signs to send our troops to war.
    The Queen has no influence in this. And I would rather
    have this than some PM or President signing it.

    Under her ‘special powers’ she can dissolve an ineffective
    or untenable parliament under our constitution. Unless she
    or he is asked to dissolve parliament by the PM or Premier
    when an election is being called.

    There is no way she can sack only a PM? Gosh we are not
    Zimbabwe! Gillard was a legal voted in by her electorate and her party appointed her PM.

    Note that in the last referendum the Republicans wanted the PM given powers to sack the President appointed. That
    was a mistake eh?

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    memoryvault

    Adam @ 479

    Sounds like a bit of arse covering / historical revisionism to me. You know, making up a motivate after the fact.

    John Kerr’s “Statement of Reasons” was released on 11 November, 1975. The same day as the dismissal. So much “historical revisionism”.

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    Adam Smith

    It doesn’t take more than half a brain to figure

    Now, unless you want to get back to matters that relate to the convoy, I think I’ll stick to debating with somebody with more than half a brain.

    See, it is exactly these sorts of personal attacks that mean nobody takes your posts seriously.

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    Adam Smith

    John Kerr’s “Statement of Reasons” was released on 11 November, 1975. The same day as the dismissal. So much “historical revisionism”.

    Yes it certainly is revisionism, because Whitlam won the 1974 election. There was absolutely no reason for there to be another election in 1975 because Whitlam’s confidence in the lower house was without doubt.

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    MaryFJohnston

    Whitlam was out of cash.

    You can’t run a country without cash.

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    Bush bunny

    Adam @ 442. Well you could refer to the Nocarbontax.com although I suspect you think they are telling lies too. Or

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,472786,00.html

    http:/economicsnewspaper.com/policy/germany/hamburger-controversal-energy-project-coal-power-moorburg

    I think I have put them in correctly, put if they don’t work
    then just Google – Germany turning to coal fired generators.

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    P Dragone

    Adam,
    see you cannot say anything upsetting to thest these people but they can call you a ‘Brownshirt’ without impunity. Hypocrisy, they name is… well, I am sure you get the picture. Also there is no sense of humour here, humour is interpreted as trolling. It seems only angst is acceptable. It takes a sophisticated intellect to appreciate your humour and I get the impression you are flying way too high.

    As I pointed out previously, the taboos of a group tells most about it.

    The posts have really dried up on this board, they have not reached 500 yet, even with the ‘trolls’.

    The rejection of the science behind the theory of Anthropological Global Warming is classic group-think. This group is filtering out any information which challenges that rejection.

    I find that interesting.

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    MaryFJohnston

    P Dragone: @ 487

    “but they can call you a ‘Brownshirt’ without impunity”

    I totally agree with you, life is so unfair.

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    I may as well join the arguement.

    Coal Combustion:Nuclear Resource or Danger by Alex Gabbard

    “Americans living near coal fired powered plants are exposed to higher radiation doses than those living near nuclear power plants that meet government regulations.”

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    Mark D.

    P Dragone, what I find interesting is when people post comments that don’t have anything to do with the thread topic. So I ask you; are you taking part in the convoy (you know the subject of this thread)?

    If not, would you kindly shut the F^%$# up? It’s not a matter of Group Think, or sense of humor (have you cracked a funny either?).

    Troll indeed……..

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    Winston

    The rejection of the science behind the theory of Anthropological Global Warming is classic group-think. This group is filtering out any information which challenges that rejection.

    I find that interesting.

    You are projecting there, you describe warmistas to a ‘T’.

    Also there is no sense of humour here, humour is interpreted as trolling. It seems only angst is acceptable. It takes a sophisticated intellect to appreciate your humour and I get the impression you are flying way too high.

    You confuse sarcasm with humour, how droll- it is not called the lowest form of wit because it is sophisticated. You need to redefine “humour” and “sophisticated intellect” as I see no evidence of either in any of the posts by either Adam or yourself, who are clearly partaking in a mutual admiration society, unaware that most of the heavyweights on this site can’t even be bothered to interact with you.

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    memoryvault

    MaryFJohnston @ 488

    And to think, earlier in the day he was bragging to Jo about how much better his English was compared to hers.

    Gotta run – off to call someone else a “brownshirt without impunity”.

    Maybe the sky will fall on me.

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    Neal of the down but not beaten

    Having survived the past 79 years and done my bit to protect our people from external threats I can only now watch and admire your assault on greater threats from within , happy hunting mates. Neal

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    Adam Smith

    Adam,
    see you cannot say anything upsetting to thest these people but they can call you a ‘Brownshirt’ without impunity.

    Oh yeah the double standards are pretty obvious. But there main alternative to name calling is stuff like this:

    If not, would you kindly shut the F^%$# up?

    That basically seems to be the extent of their argument. If you don’t agree with them, you’re a Nazi. If you point out that their name calling simply debases debate, they tell you to shut up.

    They’re not really interested in debate or engaging with views that contradict their own. No wonder they revert to calling people “brownshirts” and telling people to shut up.

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    memoryvault at 455

    the atmospheric pressure at sea level is currently 101.325 kPa (14.7 psi) today

    The atmospheric pressure is not changing, thus is not important. What is important is the partial pressure of CO2 (pCO2) in the same atmosphere, compared to the partial pressure of CO2 in the water (that is measured when the water is in equilibrium with the above air). The pCO2(atm) increased with 100 microatm, the pCO2(aq) increased with maximum 16 microatm (for 1°C increase in temperature). That means that more molecules of CO2 tend to enter the oceans than tend to escape and thus an extra flow of CO2 is entering the oceans from out of the atmosphere…

    a possible change of only +/- 4ppm CO2, which you yourself have just confirmed on another thread on this site is indiscernible from natural variance

    You forget one thing: the emissions are continuously going on and increasing, while the natural variation didn’t change over the years. Thus after 2-3 years, the increase in the atmosphere is already far beyond the natural variation. Think about tide gauges: any increase (or decrease) of the average needs some 25 years to be statistically significant in the huge natural variability of waves and tides…

    But I agree that the word “acidification” of the oceans is mainly meant to scare people…

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    memoryvault

    Adam Smith @ 494

    They’re not really interested in debate or engaging with views that contradict their own. No wonder they revert to calling people “brownshirts” and telling people to shut up.

    Adam, I would never call you or any of the other cultists “brownshirt” – it’s a title I reserve exclusively for Brownshirt Bob.

    It’s not possible to engage you in any “views” Adam, contradictory or otherwise, without you ultimately resorting to pointing out Tony Abbott’s failings. Go back and check the history of your own posts just on this particular thread.

    Since your only point of debate ultimately becomes telling me Abbott is a typical mealy-mouthed, two-faced politician, something I totally agree with and have told you many times, there’s no much left to debate about.

    It’s not like you ever discuss “science” or anything like that.

    About the only person here more likely to engage in Abbott bashing and less likely to debate “science” is Dragone, so I’ve taken to ignoring him completely.

    Besides, this was supposed to be a thread about organising a convoy, NOT science, and especially NOT Abbott, despite the pair of trying very hard make it exclusively about him.

    In fact, as far as I’m aware this is the first time either of you have blogged extensively here at Jo Nova’s, if, in fact, you have ever been here before at all.

    In fact one can only wonder why two people apparently so desperate to have a debate on “science” would go looking for it – three days straight now – on a thread about a Canberra protest rally.

    One would have thought the time and effort world have been better invested at WUWT or even one of the several other threads on this site over the last week, IF one were truly looking for a debate on “science”.

    Where do you go looking for your sex education – masterchef?

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    Adam Smith

    Adam, I would never call you or any of the other cultists “brownshirt” – it’s a title I reserve exclusively for Brownshirt Bob.

    By reverting to such Nazi sloganeering you are debasing debate and demonstrating to everyone that you don’t have confidence in the quality of your own arguments.

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    Kevin Moore at 454:

    Is it your tactic to have long winded arguements to get others of the point of the article under discussion?

    If it wasn’t that far away and expensive, I would join one of the convoys, as a carbon tax is the next worst thing (the worst is Cap and Trade, ready for huge fraude) you can do: it kills economy and jobs, with zero effect on CO2 or temperature (worse, as the industry moves to China, where they will give huge real pollution).

    But I do react if someone uses arguments which are scientifically wrong, whoever said that. The warmists already do scare people with unproven and false arguments, only based on failing computer models, but the sceptics should react with sound arguments…

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    MaryFJohnston

    Mr Vault

    I did notice that but felt that two blows in the one post might be overdoing it.

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    memoryvault

    MaryFJohnston @ 499

    Okay – we can take turns

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    MaryFJohnston

    Memory Vault

    The following as posted to you earlier by my favorite “skeptic”?

    “You forget one thing: the emissions are continuously going on and increasing, while the natural variation didn’t change over the years. Thus after 2-3 years, the increase in the atmosphere is already far beyond the natural variation. Think about tide gauges: any increase (or decrease) of the average needs some 25 years to be statistically significant in the huge natural variability of waves and tides…”

    He brings in tide gauges to justify comments on CO2 cycling and the entire para uis full of those very scientific packets of information: ASSUMPTIONS.

    An example: states ” the natural variation didn’t change over the years”.

    This is not verified and as I’ve posted previously the “ERRORS” alone in quantifying natural CO2 output completely overshadow man made CO2.

    His statement is Junk Science but he pretends to be a “skeptic”.

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