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	<title>Comments on: Copenhagen: blizzards, walk-outs, frustration &#8211; good news</title>
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	<description>Tackling tribal groupthink</description>
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		<title>By: Roy Hogue</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-22185</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Hogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 15:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-22185</guid>
		<description>Tel,

Obama indeed did pick up the job with a bad hand to play -- economy in a nosedive, at war...  But then his response to a bad economy is to borrow -- borrow -- borrow.  When the Chinese admonish him to quit spending money he doesn&#039;t have it tells me I&#039;m right, we&#039;re in debt to the point where we&#039;ll suffer badly for it.  And the money goes to the favorite causes of his pals in Congress and not to the places where it can really do some good.  And spending money you don&#039;t have is not the way out of economic trouble in any case.

He&#039;s uncertain about the war.  I think he&#039;d like to ignore it.  It didn&#039;t take all those months to decide whether to send more troops to his hand-picked theater commander in Afghanistan.  That decision shouldn&#039;t take more than a few days.  It&#039;s almost self making.  Why did he not work out the right strategy before giving General McChrystal the job?  You do the homework first, not after you&#039;re into it up to your ears.

Then when another attempt to take down an airliner was foiled by a quick thinking passenger, Obama stayed on the golf course while his advisors stared at each other wondering what to do.  Tel, if I&#039;m president and something like that happens my golf outing is over and I&#039;m on the phone with Homeland Security, my Secretary of Defense and the FAA.  I want to know what&#039;s happening and why.  I want to know what they know and know it when they know it.  That&#039;s what the job is all about.

I&#039;ll be honest with you, this man&#039;s detachment from his responsibility and reality frightens me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tel,</p>
<p>Obama indeed did pick up the job with a bad hand to play &#8212; economy in a nosedive, at war&#8230;  But then his response to a bad economy is to borrow &#8212; borrow &#8212; borrow.  When the Chinese admonish him to quit spending money he doesn&#8217;t have it tells me I&#8217;m right, we&#8217;re in debt to the point where we&#8217;ll suffer badly for it.  And the money goes to the favorite causes of his pals in Congress and not to the places where it can really do some good.  And spending money you don&#8217;t have is not the way out of economic trouble in any case.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s uncertain about the war.  I think he&#8217;d like to ignore it.  It didn&#8217;t take all those months to decide whether to send more troops to his hand-picked theater commander in Afghanistan.  That decision shouldn&#8217;t take more than a few days.  It&#8217;s almost self making.  Why did he not work out the right strategy before giving General McChrystal the job?  You do the homework first, not after you&#8217;re into it up to your ears.</p>
<p>Then when another attempt to take down an airliner was foiled by a quick thinking passenger, Obama stayed on the golf course while his advisors stared at each other wondering what to do.  Tel, if I&#8217;m president and something like that happens my golf outing is over and I&#8217;m on the phone with Homeland Security, my Secretary of Defense and the FAA.  I want to know what&#8217;s happening and why.  I want to know what they know and know it when they know it.  That&#8217;s what the job is all about.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll be honest with you, this man&#8217;s detachment from his responsibility and reality frightens me.</p>
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		<title>By: Tel</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-22157</link>
		<dc:creator>Tel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 09:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-22157</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
I&#039;ve not the slightest doubt that the difference between Obama the candidate and Obama the president is anything but intentional.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

OK, that&#039;s a very interesting assessment of the situation, you are sitting a lot closer to the fire than I am and you no doubt have a better feeling for the cultural details.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I always try to call things as I see them so forgive my being cynical. I got there honestly through watching the world around me for a long time.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not at all, your honest opinion is much more valuable to me than just throwing my own words back in the air.

I give Obama a bit more credit than you do under the circumstance but we probably agree that the end result of his actions will not be good (Obama got a dealt a bad hand to begin with, I can&#039;t believe McCain tried all that hard to win, and I can well appreciate why the 44th president was guaranteed a rough time regardless of who got the job).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
I&#8217;ve not the slightest doubt that the difference between Obama the candidate and Obama the president is anything but intentional.
</p></blockquote>
<p>OK, that&#8217;s a very interesting assessment of the situation, you are sitting a lot closer to the fire than I am and you no doubt have a better feeling for the cultural details.</p>
<blockquote><p>
I always try to call things as I see them so forgive my being cynical. I got there honestly through watching the world around me for a long time.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Not at all, your honest opinion is much more valuable to me than just throwing my own words back in the air.</p>
<p>I give Obama a bit more credit than you do under the circumstance but we probably agree that the end result of his actions will not be good (Obama got a dealt a bad hand to begin with, I can&#8217;t believe McCain tried all that hard to win, and I can well appreciate why the 44th president was guaranteed a rough time regardless of who got the job).</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Hogue</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-22054</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Hogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 12:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-22054</guid>
		<description>Tel,

We could have long discussions about Obama.  But the man was always all too obvious to me.  When someone makes claims and promises that seem too good to be true then my BS meter goes into overload and stays there.  I listened to his acceptance speech at the convention and he pretty literally promised to save the world.  I half expected him to grow 20 feet tall at the end and proclaim that he was the second coming of Jesus Christ.

He literally got into office with words.  He&#039;s got the slickest tongue I&#039;ve ever seen.  But once in office he&#039;s proved that words are all he has -- words and, unfortunately, the persistence of a bad idea whose time has long run out but sticks around anyway.  He never gives up.

He set the tone for his administration at his first meeting with Republicans when he told them, &quot;We won.&quot;  He&#039;d be laughable if he didn&#039;t have such a destructive agenda.  But he does.  And he surrounds himself with subordinates who subscribe to that same radical agenda and are more than capable enough to make up for his incompetence in leadership and management.  That they screw up frequently and very visibly doesn&#039;t seem to bother his supporters a bit.

He&#039;s not good for his own country or the rest of the world.  It&#039;s all too obvious that he had no intention of operating openly as he said would.  He&#039;s been divisive instead of bringing people together as he said he would.  He&#039;s torn down his country wherever he went.  I wonder just exactly whose president he really is.  And I&#039;ve not the slightest doubt that the difference between Obama the candidate and Obama the president is anything but intentional.

-------------

I always try to call things as I see them so forgive my being cynical.  I got there honestly through watching the world around me for a long time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tel,</p>
<p>We could have long discussions about Obama.  But the man was always all too obvious to me.  When someone makes claims and promises that seem too good to be true then my BS meter goes into overload and stays there.  I listened to his acceptance speech at the convention and he pretty literally promised to save the world.  I half expected him to grow 20 feet tall at the end and proclaim that he was the second coming of Jesus Christ.</p>
<p>He literally got into office with words.  He&#8217;s got the slickest tongue I&#8217;ve ever seen.  But once in office he&#8217;s proved that words are all he has &#8212; words and, unfortunately, the persistence of a bad idea whose time has long run out but sticks around anyway.  He never gives up.</p>
<p>He set the tone for his administration at his first meeting with Republicans when he told them, &#8220;We won.&#8221;  He&#8217;d be laughable if he didn&#8217;t have such a destructive agenda.  But he does.  And he surrounds himself with subordinates who subscribe to that same radical agenda and are more than capable enough to make up for his incompetence in leadership and management.  That they screw up frequently and very visibly doesn&#8217;t seem to bother his supporters a bit.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s not good for his own country or the rest of the world.  It&#8217;s all too obvious that he had no intention of operating openly as he said would.  He&#8217;s been divisive instead of bringing people together as he said he would.  He&#8217;s torn down his country wherever he went.  I wonder just exactly whose president he really is.  And I&#8217;ve not the slightest doubt that the difference between Obama the candidate and Obama the president is anything but intentional.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>I always try to call things as I see them so forgive my being cynical.  I got there honestly through watching the world around me for a long time.</p>
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		<title>By: Tel</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-22036</link>
		<dc:creator>Tel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-22036</guid>
		<description>Of course I don&#039;t seriously expect the UN to ever produce a workable system to be able to track funds from source to spending. It&#039;s just a question that you ask for going through the motions of reminding everyone that we know what they are doing.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Then, yes, demand accountability from Rudd, Obama and every other leader everywhere. Hold their feet to the fire and never let up.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s weird with Obama, I actually thought he was going to carry through with some of his campaign rhetoric regarding accountability and transparency. He was talking about getting ideas direct from Internet contributers, sending out transcripts of bills before they are voted, delivering detailed statements of accounts in some universal format (I remember that XML was discussed) and a whole bunch of things. There was a touch of genuine promise that he might be a little bit more than the &quot;Same You Can Believe In&quot;.

He even made a few small steps down that process then it all went quiet. It bothers me, somehow I thought that Obama really believed in the ideas he pushed during his campaign, and the Occam&#039;s Razor explanation is that when Obama got to Washington and tried to actually implement a few things he hit such entrenched resistance that he has been floundering ever since. This would imply that the rot in Washington goes very deep.

Then again, I&#039;m also surprised by the number of high profile people attempting to defend the CRU email scandal by saying that it was no big deal. This shows that a lot of important people are willing to go out on a limb defending what is obviously indefensible hoping that the sheeple will happily think whatever they are told to think. The rot in the scientific establishment must run a lot deeper than anyone expected.

The brazen confidence of the bullshit artists regularly makes me question whether they could have miscalculated so badly or whether we all have. How close are we to the situation where people who say the wrong things can be summarily silenced with a wave of the hand? How would you know?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course I don&#8217;t seriously expect the UN to ever produce a workable system to be able to track funds from source to spending. It&#8217;s just a question that you ask for going through the motions of reminding everyone that we know what they are doing.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Then, yes, demand accountability from Rudd, Obama and every other leader everywhere. Hold their feet to the fire and never let up.
</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s weird with Obama, I actually thought he was going to carry through with some of his campaign rhetoric regarding accountability and transparency. He was talking about getting ideas direct from Internet contributers, sending out transcripts of bills before they are voted, delivering detailed statements of accounts in some universal format (I remember that XML was discussed) and a whole bunch of things. There was a touch of genuine promise that he might be a little bit more than the &#8220;Same You Can Believe In&#8221;.</p>
<p>He even made a few small steps down that process then it all went quiet. It bothers me, somehow I thought that Obama really believed in the ideas he pushed during his campaign, and the Occam&#8217;s Razor explanation is that when Obama got to Washington and tried to actually implement a few things he hit such entrenched resistance that he has been floundering ever since. This would imply that the rot in Washington goes very deep.</p>
<p>Then again, I&#8217;m also surprised by the number of high profile people attempting to defend the CRU email scandal by saying that it was no big deal. This shows that a lot of important people are willing to go out on a limb defending what is obviously indefensible hoping that the sheeple will happily think whatever they are told to think. The rot in the scientific establishment must run a lot deeper than anyone expected.</p>
<p>The brazen confidence of the bullshit artists regularly makes me question whether they could have miscalculated so badly or whether we all have. How close are we to the situation where people who say the wrong things can be summarily silenced with a wave of the hand? How would you know?</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Hogue</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-21944</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Hogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-21944</guid>
		<description>Tel,

I&#039;d not give a dime to support what we all know is a fraud.  But I understand your point.  You&#039;ve put your finger on exactly the problem, accountability.  First off there&#039;s the UN which is accountable to exactly no one.  Then there are the governments of so-called democracies that are anything but democracies because their leaders seek to hide and disguise their double-dealing, self-serving and dishonest agendas and we have let them get away with it.  We can be bought too easily when we should not allow ourselves to be bought at any price.

As I&#039;ve already said, the best thing developed nations across the world could possibly do is withdraw from the UN and kick them out of the country.  The UN is not our friend in any sense of the word.

Then, yes, demand accountability from Rudd, Obama and every other leader everywhere.  Hold their feet to the fire and never let up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tel,</p>
<p>I&#8217;d not give a dime to support what we all know is a fraud.  But I understand your point.  You&#8217;ve put your finger on exactly the problem, accountability.  First off there&#8217;s the UN which is accountable to exactly no one.  Then there are the governments of so-called democracies that are anything but democracies because their leaders seek to hide and disguise their double-dealing, self-serving and dishonest agendas and we have let them get away with it.  We can be bought too easily when we should not allow ourselves to be bought at any price.</p>
<p>As I&#8217;ve already said, the best thing developed nations across the world could possibly do is withdraw from the UN and kick them out of the country.  The UN is not our friend in any sense of the word.</p>
<p>Then, yes, demand accountability from Rudd, Obama and every other leader everywhere.  Hold their feet to the fire and never let up.</p>
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		<title>By: ThomasJ</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-21922</link>
		<dc:creator>ThomasJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-21922</guid>
		<description>Why the f*** even &lt;strong&gt;consider&lt;/strong&gt; to pay anything for something that ain&#039;t?
 ;) 

Regards/TJ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why the f*** even <strong>consider</strong> to pay anything for something that ain&#8217;t?<br />
 <img src='http://joannenova.com.au/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Regards/TJ</p>
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		<title>By: Tel</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-21917</link>
		<dc:creator>Tel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 06:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-21917</guid>
		<description>Roy,

If the opposition could push for just one answer from Kevin Rudd, I suggest they push him for clear documentation of where the UN is going to spend this &quot;emergency&quot; money, and exactly how the taxpayers will be informed of progress. Let&#039;s see if Rudd can deliver on accountability and transparency in the process, with measurable outcomes... because that&#039;s one thing the UN never explains, where the money goes and what they do with it.

Once we have clear visibility of who gets the money and what results are expected, then we consider actually paying our contribution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roy,</p>
<p>If the opposition could push for just one answer from Kevin Rudd, I suggest they push him for clear documentation of where the UN is going to spend this &#8220;emergency&#8221; money, and exactly how the taxpayers will be informed of progress. Let&#8217;s see if Rudd can deliver on accountability and transparency in the process, with measurable outcomes&#8230; because that&#8217;s one thing the UN never explains, where the money goes and what they do with it.</p>
<p>Once we have clear visibility of who gets the money and what results are expected, then we consider actually paying our contribution.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Hogue</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-21809</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Hogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Dec 2009 16:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-21809</guid>
		<description>This is all over my Verizon home page news this morning.  So they don&#039;t think it&#039;s over at all.

http://www.verizon.net/newsroom/portals/newsroom.portal?_nfpb=true&amp;_pageLabel=newsroom_portal_page_world_article&amp;_article=2512998


&quot;UN climate chief urges avoiding blame over summit&quot;

” Yvo de Boer, head of the U.N. climate change secretariat, also said it could take months before poor countries begin receiving billions of dollars in emergency funds to adapt to climate change and begin controlling their emissions of greenhouse gases.&quot;

This is a direct quote from the AP article.

True believers all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all over my Verizon home page news this morning.  So they don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s over at all.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.verizon.net/newsroom/portals/newsroom.portal?_nfpb=true&#038;_pageLabel=newsroom_portal_page_world_article&#038;_article=2512998" rel="nofollow">http://www.verizon.net/newsroom/portals/newsroom.portal?_nfpb=true&#038;_pageLabel=newsroom_portal_page_world_article&#038;_article=2512998</a></p>
<p>&#8220;UN climate chief urges avoiding blame over summit&#8221;</p>
<p>” Yvo de Boer, head of the U.N. climate change secretariat, also said it could take months before poor countries begin receiving billions of dollars in emergency funds to adapt to climate change and begin controlling their emissions of greenhouse gases.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a direct quote from the AP article.</p>
<p>True believers all.</p>
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		<title>By: Sharpshooter</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-21073</link>
		<dc:creator>Sharpshooter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 02:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-21073</guid>
		<description>I notice that the folks that keep barfing &quot;For the Children&quot;, don&#039;t have any, or maybe only one.

Having kids makes you more TRULY future oriented rather than future suicidal.

Giving absolute power to bureaucrats is SUICIDAL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notice that the folks that keep barfing &#8220;For the Children&#8221;, don&#8217;t have any, or maybe only one.</p>
<p>Having kids makes you more TRULY future oriented rather than future suicidal.</p>
<p>Giving absolute power to bureaucrats is SUICIDAL.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Hogue</title>
		<link>http://joannenova.com.au/2009/12/copenhagen-blizzards-walk-outs-frustration-good-news/#comment-20955</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Hogue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannenova.com.au/?p=5498#comment-20955</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Roy, remember that these kids talk to each other. Every young person you enlighten could potentially enlighten a dozen more, and so on, and so on. The truth is a powerful virus it can stand on its own, people can recognize it in their guts, it’s a visceral reaction.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is only true for some, not for all.  I taught for 17 years at the community college level and I&#039;ve seen what comes out of our schools.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Apart from that, and I don’t remember who said it “The only shot you have a 100% probability of missing is the one you don’t take”.
In any case if we do go down the plan ‘B’ path we will have more individuals standing with us.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, true.  But I hope we don&#039;t end up there.

The number of people who don&#039;t like what was tried in Copenhagen is growing.  If that trend continues then maybe we can win at he polls.  But it seems to be backlash at Obama and more spending rather than understanding of the global warming hoax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Roy, remember that these kids talk to each other. Every young person you enlighten could potentially enlighten a dozen more, and so on, and so on. The truth is a powerful virus it can stand on its own, people can recognize it in their guts, it’s a visceral reaction.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is only true for some, not for all.  I taught for 17 years at the community college level and I&#8217;ve seen what comes out of our schools.</p>
<blockquote><p>Apart from that, and I don’t remember who said it “The only shot you have a 100% probability of missing is the one you don’t take”.<br />
In any case if we do go down the plan ‘B’ path we will have more individuals standing with us.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, true.  But I hope we don&#8217;t end up there.</p>
<p>The number of people who don&#8217;t like what was tried in Copenhagen is growing.  If that trend continues then maybe we can win at he polls.  But it seems to be backlash at Obama and more spending rather than understanding of the global warming hoax.</p>
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