Comments on: This is line-ball. Australia stands on the edge of the trading abyss http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/ Tackling tribal groupthink Sat, 11 Feb 2012 10:28:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Cameron H http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-18676 Cameron H Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:15:33 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-18676 Matt, That is right. I meant to say. I have yet to see anybody define this in a way that has any meaning in the real world. Matt, That is right. I meant to say. I have yet to see anybody define this in a way that has any meaning in the real world.

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]]> By: MattB http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-18671 MattB Tue, 08 Dec 2009 02:09:56 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-18671 Cameron... thanks for clarifying that your statement "I have yet to see anybody define this" was not true. Cameron… thanks for clarifying that your statement “I have yet to see anybody define this” was not true.

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]]> By: Cameron H http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-18667 Cameron H Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:15:04 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-18667 MattB To clarify. I put my qualifications and work experience in to show that I have had many years of practical experience dealing with both Government Environmental Agencies and Green Groups. The "sustainability" idea is similar to that non concept "the precautionary principal". Both can take on any meaning that you want to support your case, which is usually the wind back of further human economic and industrial development or figuring out new ways to gain tax revenues. They are also used to exclude the rigorous scientific analysis of any claims before action is innitiated to save us from some imagined potential doom. I believe that we are in a war with the environmental facists for our future rights and liberties. These are the enemies terminologies and should be avoided in any discussion or debates on environmental issues. I also believe that it is time to stop banging on about the science because it is no longer a scientific argument. Barnaby Joyce and the Nationals seem to be the only ones who understand this and that is why they attack the sole purpose of this issue which is controlling human activity and raising large amounts of money. MattB
To clarify. I put my qualifications and work experience in to show that I have had many years of practical experience dealing with both Government Environmental Agencies and Green Groups. The “sustainability” idea is similar to that non concept “the precautionary principal”. Both can take on any meaning that you want to support your case, which is usually the wind back of further human economic and industrial development or figuring out new ways to gain tax revenues.

They are also used to exclude the rigorous scientific analysis of any claims before action is innitiated to save us from some imagined potential doom.

I believe that we are in a war with the environmental facists for our future rights and liberties. These are the enemies terminologies and should be avoided in any discussion or debates on environmental issues. I also believe that it is time to stop banging on about the science because it is no longer a scientific argument. Barnaby Joyce and the Nationals seem to be the only ones who understand this and that is why they attack the sole purpose of this issue which is controlling human activity and raising large amounts of money.

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]]> By: Cameron H http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-18651 Cameron H Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:12:26 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-18651 MattB, I have a dgree in science with majors in chemistry and physics and I have done some study in environmental engineering. I was an Environmental Manager at a major industry for many years and retired at the end of last year from my last position as the technical services and engineering manager also at a major industry. I can assure you that any "definition" that you can bring up on sustainabiltity will be big on post modernist claptrap that is usually sprouted by the likes of Clive Hamilton but short on any meaningfull substance that can be applied in the real world. MattB,
I have a dgree in science with majors in chemistry and physics and I have done some study in environmental engineering. I was an Environmental Manager at a major industry for many years and retired at the end of last year from my last position as the technical services and engineering manager also at a major industry. I can assure you that any “definition” that you can bring up on sustainabiltity will be big on post modernist claptrap that is usually sprouted by the likes of Clive Hamilton but short on any meaningfull substance that can be applied in the real world.

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]]> By: MattB http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-18541 MattB Mon, 07 Dec 2009 02:51:25 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-18541 Cameron if you've never seen anyone define "sustainability" then you've not spent much time looking. Cameron if you’ve never seen anyone define “sustainability” then you’ve not spent much time looking.

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]]> By: Cameron http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-18540 Cameron Mon, 07 Dec 2009 02:48:52 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-18540 Response to Lionel, I suppose you are the arbiter of excess consumption and what type of home is appropriate. The whole facist atitude of the environmental movement is what gets up my nose. Lionel's comment is full of the self rightious BS that can be expected from the greenies. The whole point of this debate is that there is no real evidence that CO2 is the main driver of climate change and, therefore, do we need to unnecessarily waste 100's of Billions of the taxpayers money. The other word I find pretty meaningless is "sustainable. I have yet to see anybody define this. What if we cut our fuel use by 50%. This means we run out in 100 years instead of 50 years. Big deal. Before this time the scarcity would have forced up the price and alternatives would have become economically viable without the green facists practicing their social engineering on us. If you want to increase your street cred with the greenies and wear a hair shirt Lionel go ahead but I will keep my silk one. Response to Lionel,
I suppose you are the arbiter of excess consumption and what type of home is appropriate. The whole facist atitude of the environmental movement is what gets up my nose. Lionel’s comment is full of the self rightious BS that can be expected from the greenies. The whole point of this debate is that there is no real evidence that CO2 is the main driver of climate change and, therefore, do we need to unnecessarily waste 100′s of Billions of the taxpayers money.

The other word I find pretty meaningless is “sustainable. I have yet to see anybody define this. What if we cut our fuel use by 50%. This means we run out in 100 years instead of 50 years. Big deal. Before this time the scarcity would have forced up the price and alternatives would have become economically viable without the green facists practicing their social engineering on us.

If you want to increase your street cred with the greenies and wear a hair shirt Lionel go ahead but I will keep my silk one.

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]]> By: Dr Lionel Boxer http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-18184 Dr Lionel Boxer Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:40:47 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-18184 Doing something about climate change requires something other than trading permission to do so. I find it extraordinary that people think an Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) will reduce pollution. An ETS is about trading permission to pollute, which merely permits continuation of polluting if a sufficient price is paid. Having completed a PhD inquiring into how CEOs deal with sustainability, I have seen the frustration of some business leaders with their subordinate managers who neglect to take responsible steps to eliminate pollution. Those CEOs who deal with sustainability well do one thing in common; they challenge their subordinate managers to behave in a sustainable way. We would not have to deal with this issue if we were all more responsible and less concerned with unnecessary excessive consumption. We do not to live in inappropriately large homes and have no right to wasting resources. Perhaps if we refuse to behave in a sustainable way we will deserve the consequences of an ETS, with its annual cost levied against each of us. However, having helped organisations eliminate pollution over several decades I am certain this is not necessary if we think before we consume. Doing something about climate change requires something other than trading permission to do so. I find it extraordinary that people think an Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) will reduce pollution. An ETS is about trading permission to pollute, which merely permits continuation of polluting if a sufficient price is paid. Having completed a PhD inquiring into how CEOs deal with sustainability, I have seen the frustration of some business leaders with their subordinate managers who neglect to take responsible steps to eliminate pollution. Those CEOs who deal with sustainability well do one thing in common; they challenge their subordinate managers to behave in a sustainable way. We would not have to deal with this issue if we were all more responsible and less concerned with unnecessary excessive consumption. We do not to live in inappropriately large homes and have no right to wasting resources. Perhaps if we refuse to behave in a sustainable way we will deserve the consequences of an ETS, with its annual cost levied against each of us. However, having helped organisations eliminate pollution over several decades I am certain this is not necessary if we think before we consume.

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]]> By: Mike http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-17183 Mike Sun, 29 Nov 2009 06:32:10 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-17183 David of Emerald How do you BCC? David of Emerald

How do you BCC?

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]]> By: david of emerald http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-17138 david of emerald Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:11:59 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-17138 Do NOT CC but BCC - then only the recipients email address appears Do NOT CC but BCC – then only the recipients email address appears

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]]> By: Eve http://joannenova.com.au/2009/11/this-is-line-ball-australia-stands-on-the-edge-of-the-trading-abyss/#comment-17107 Eve Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:19:19 +0000 http://joannenova.com.au/?p=4338#comment-17107 Bob, you're not wrong :) Bob, you’re not wrong :)

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